0:00

ABC Listen, podcasts, radio,

0:02

news, music and more.

0:06

Hello, welcome to PM. I'm Samantha Donovan,

0:08

coming to you from the lands of the

0:11

Wurmjeri people of the Kulin Nation in Melbourne.

0:13

Tonight, counter-terrorism police arrest seven

0:16

teenagers after last week's stabbing

0:18

at a Sydney church. MUSIC

0:29

Also, inflation comes down slightly,

0:31

but it's still proving difficult

0:33

to control. And searching

0:36

for solutions as the nation grapples

0:38

with the shocking rate of violence

0:40

against women. What my experience was

0:42

when I was running those programs,

0:45

the men quite quickly would start

0:47

to hold each other to account

0:50

and would in fact sometimes be horrified at

0:52

the behaviour of others. MUSIC

0:58

In Sydney, counter-terrorism police have

1:00

raided several homes and arrested

1:02

seven teenagers today as part

1:04

of their investigation of the

1:07

stabbing of an Assyrian Christian

1:09

bishop at his church last

1:11

week. The arrests come as

1:13

a fierce debate continues between

1:15

social media companies and politicians

1:17

over the publication of video

1:19

of the alleged terrorism attack

1:22

online. The heads of

1:24

Australian security agencies are warning such

1:26

content threatens the safety of

1:28

the public and they're urging tech

1:30

bosses to comply with the requests

1:33

of authorities to take that offensive

1:35

material down. Alexandra Humphries reports. Since

1:38

the alleged stabbing at a church

1:40

in southwest Sydney just over a

1:42

week ago, investigators have been looking

1:44

into a number of people they

1:46

believed were linked to the crime,

1:48

which was declared an act of

1:50

terrorism. Today they decided they needed

1:52

to act fast. As part of

1:54

our JCTT investigation into the alleged

1:56

wakely stabbing, we identified links between

1:58

the alleged offender and a

2:00

network of associates and peers

2:03

who we believe shared a

2:05

similar violent extremist ideology. The

2:07

JCTT has acted swiftly to

2:09

disrupt these individuals and the

2:11

investigation remains ongoing. 400 personnel

2:14

from the New South Wales Police and

2:17

the Australian Federal Police raided 13

2:19

properties at quarter past 11 this

2:22

morning. Chrissy Barris is Deputy Commissioner

2:24

at the AFP. At this stage,

2:26

seven people, all juveniles, have been

2:28

arrested and a further five are

2:30

assisting police with our inquiries. Deputy

2:33

Commissioner Barris says at this stage

2:35

investigators have no evidence identifying specific

2:37

targets, places or times that the group

2:39

might have been planning to attack. As

2:42

for who might have influenced the juveniles,

2:44

police say they're still trying to figure

2:46

that out. Now I know that some

2:48

of this will be confusing and confronting

2:50

for some Australians and parts of our

2:52

community. Senior members of

2:54

the AFP and our community liaison

2:56

teams have today held discussions with

2:59

faith communities who we value

3:01

and respect. Our relationships are very important

3:03

and we never take them for granted.

3:05

I want to be very clear, we

3:07

target criminality and not

3:09

countries, we target radicalisation,

3:11

not religion. She emphasised that there

3:14

are no current threats to public safety

3:16

and there was no suggestion of any

3:18

attack planned for Anzac Day. Police

3:20

seized electronic devices during the

3:22

raids and their investigations are continuing.

3:25

This comes as the role of

3:27

social media in fuelling extremism is

3:30

under intense scrutiny. Around the same

3:32

time the raids were happening, the

3:34

head of the Australian Federal Police,

3:36

Reece Kershaw, addressed the National Press

3:38

Club, speaking of frustration with the

3:40

way social media companies responded to

3:42

last week's terrorist attack in Sydney.

3:45

Social media companies are refusing to

3:47

snuff out the social combustion on

3:49

their platforms. Instead

3:51

of putting out the embers

3:53

that start on their platforms,

3:55

their indifference and defiance is

3:57

pouring accelerant on the flames.

4:00

And if we consider the disinformation

4:02

and misinformation from two shocking incidents

4:04

in Sydney this month and

4:06

how that social combustion was propagated

4:09

throughout the world, we

4:11

see the consequences of that indifference

4:13

and defiance. Our

4:15

respective leaders of faith tell us

4:17

how the interpretation of religion is

4:20

being purposely distorted on social media.

4:24

Because of this, their communities and

4:26

religious beliefs are tarnished and

4:28

blamed for violent acts carried out by

4:30

those who've been radicalised. Commissioner

4:32

Kershaw argued safety is also

4:35

the responsibility of tech companies.

4:37

My door is open to all

4:39

relevant tech CEOs and Chairman, including

4:41

Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. I

4:45

know we can find common ground because

4:47

put simply, tech is supposed

4:49

to make our lives easier and safer

4:51

and not the opposite. It

4:54

seems counterintuitive and in a world of

4:56

advancements that our safety is at risk.

4:59

Richard Buckland is a professor of

5:01

cybersecurity at the University of New

5:03

South Wales. He believes governments, police

5:05

and tech companies need to work

5:07

together to make social media platforms

5:09

safe. In the early days, the platforms

5:11

were sort of neutral places where anyone

5:13

could say anything and do anything with

5:15

anyone. But now we're seeing not only is

5:17

that being good for good, it's

5:19

also able to be used for bad,

5:21

this sort of contagion, this sometimes

5:24

called information warfare or influence

5:26

campaigns or just spreads of hatred. And

5:29

yeah, I think tech companies do need to

5:31

stand up and cooperate with this. Of course,

5:33

they won't want to, because as soon as

5:35

they get involved with the actual content rather

5:38

than just providing the service, that opens

5:40

a huge can of wins for them. But if they

5:42

don't do it, who will? And do

5:44

you think tech companies now need

5:46

to be thinking about how they're

5:48

going to keep communities safe, what

5:50

their role in community safety is?

5:53

Yes, 100%. They should be proactive

5:56

or things will be forced on them and it

5:58

won't necessarily be Good. what's was on

6:00

them because governments will one control if I see

6:02

that is a vacuum I do need to think

6:04

about of they were doing a good job a

6:06

while ago and then we sort of had a

6:08

big you turn around the time Elon Musk took

6:11

over X. Saudi security expert

6:13

Richard Backlund ending that report from

6:15

Alexandra Humphreys in the Federal court

6:17

this afternoon, lawyers the Ilan Mosque

6:19

social media site X told the

6:21

judge the company will contest any

6:23

further attempts by Australia a safety

6:26

commissioner to have it take down

6:28

footage of the stabbing in that

6:30

Sydney church last week. The court

6:32

heard X hasn't complied with the

6:34

terms of an injunction issued by

6:36

the court on Monday. Ordering is

6:39

hard to for each behind a

6:41

court ordered noises. It was

6:43

also told one of the stabbing

6:45

victims, Bishop Mom Mari A, thinks

6:47

the video of the attack should

6:49

be available online. The judge extended

6:52

the injunction until May the tenth.

6:54

The censorship of social media sites

6:56

is a big issue in India

6:58

at the moment, to, especially with

7:00

the world's biggest election under way.

7:02

They Narendra Modi government is cracking

7:05

down on what platforms published in

7:07

a far tougher way than Australian

7:09

authorities and it seems even a

7:11

lot musk. Is a bang. The

7:14

orders to Know Majumdar represents

7:16

the global organization, The Committee

7:18

To Protect Journalists in India.

7:20

A lot of blocking happening in the

7:22

online space the government of India has

7:25

amended before recent technology act and brought

7:27

to the prospects of the group which

7:29

makes a man to root. For.

7:31

Service providers like you to

7:33

or X or Facebook to

7:35

remove content on executive order

7:37

to be there nonjudicial orders

7:39

sometime back before Elon Musk

7:41

to go over. Or

7:43

x Twitter had actually gone to

7:46

court tried to challenge this but

7:48

unfortunately because the change of ownership

7:50

nothing happened offered. So online censorship

7:52

is of massive massive for thing

7:54

growing be in fact just last

7:57

quarter of two thousand twenty three

7:59

the you. You are report shows

8:01

are transmitted or transparency report shows

8:03

that he kneeled was number one

8:05

in terms of the take down

8:07

request a globally Ah so that's

8:09

becoming a growing be on a

8:11

big issue concern. He said the

8:13

Indian government is cracking down

8:15

on the social media companies

8:17

and what they published by

8:20

way of executive. Order rather than

8:22

going through the courts as I

8:24

do Syria. Added Ice Executive

8:26

orders work and had they been

8:28

successful, have this social media companies

8:30

like Aches been forced to comply?

8:33

Is. the government of India went

8:35

ahead and amended the Information Technology

8:38

law and have made it mandatory

8:40

for platforms like Exxon, You Tube,

8:42

and others to follow the executive

8:45

order by. I'm really in exchange

8:47

for immunity from any other odd

8:49

because as platforms they have such

8:52

immunities, they enjoy it. So in

8:54

order to maintain that immunity the

8:56

how they are now be forced

8:59

to comply with government orders in

9:01

the last few months. We have

9:03

actually seen x surprisingly even under

9:05

Mr. A Learn Math Talk to

9:07

other statements twice one was during

9:09

the Obama protest and again another

9:12

one recently at the onset of

9:14

the election when they when they

9:16

did go ahead and comply with

9:18

the government order but they also

9:20

issued a statement saying that the

9:22

doing this under protest east. Ilan

9:24

mask had refused to comply

9:26

with that executive. Order what

9:28

would the penalty dame immunity that

9:31

they get up for the get

9:33

Law are as as a third

9:35

party kind of platform that would

9:37

go of it. So for example

9:39

let's take an extreme case child

9:41

pornography. So if a child pornography

9:43

content is posted on a you

9:45

tube or or or or x

9:47

r x and you two were

9:49

not liable for them because they

9:51

are up there a platform so

9:53

that immunity at a good immunity

9:55

is being given to are these

9:57

platforms at. the end that's the similar

9:59

like in other countries as well. So that's

10:01

why X or any of

10:03

these platforms, they are not

10:05

held responsible for the content posted

10:08

on their platforms. So the Indian

10:10

government says that they will take

10:12

away that immunity in

10:14

case these platforms don't comply

10:16

with each and every executive

10:18

order that comes their way.

10:20

Elon Musk has been highly critical

10:23

of Australian authorities in recent days.

10:25

You said that he objected to

10:27

that executive order. Has he had

10:29

much to say about Narendra Modi?

10:31

The statements which were issued by X

10:34

were not of course issued in his

10:36

name. They were issued from

10:38

X in which they protested. They said

10:40

that they are complying with the orders,

10:43

but they're doing it under protestation because

10:45

they do believe in freedom of expression.

10:47

While he is making those statements, I

10:49

don't know whether he's taking the same

10:51

level of hardened position on the issue

10:54

of freedom of expression as he's taking

10:56

in Australia. His relationship with the government

10:58

of India is excellent. And as I

11:00

mentioned that he's exploring at least

11:02

two areas. One is space, the

11:04

other is EVs and he's expected

11:06

to be visiting the countryside. And

11:08

the Indian government is really trying

11:10

to attract Tesla to open because

11:12

particularly for EVs, electric vehicles.

11:15

So that's another part of the

11:17

whole game because of the business

11:19

interest that Mr. Musk and Indian

11:21

government has in terms of Musk

11:24

moving probably his operations to India

11:26

or at least exploring India as

11:28

a potential market for his EVs.

11:31

Kunal Mudramdar is the Indian

11:33

representative on the committee to

11:36

protect journalists. The

11:38

latest Bureau of Statistics figures show

11:40

that while inflation is falling, it's

11:42

not going down as fast as

11:44

hoped. Annual inflation came in at

11:46

3.6% For

11:49

the 12 months up to March,

11:51

down from 4.1% in December. And

11:53

As now Whitehead reports, the figures

11:55

are dampening hopes of a rate

11:57

cut in the next few months.

12:00

The river bank has already hikes to

12:02

castrate to it's highest level in more

12:04

than a decade. In an effort to

12:06

rein in inflation, the latest official figures

12:09

sir annual inflation came in at three

12:11

point six percent said the year to

12:13

March, down from four point one percent

12:15

in December. His treasure it gym traumas.

12:18

Or inflation has now almost

12:20

have. Since. We were elected

12:22

a couple of years ago or is

12:24

still too high or people are still

12:26

under pressure. Ah, we are

12:29

making some progress. But. The full

12:31

was less than expected and quarterly

12:33

inflation actually raised for the first

12:35

three months has this year up

12:37

to one percent from not point

12:40

six percent in the to send

12:42

quarter. The Saudi treasurer Angus Taylor

12:44

says that risks delaying interest rate.

12:46

Pot not only did it for since

12:48

I mean about it's the causes. Of

12:51

for. Enforcing seller it. On

12:53

and we sold to does that. The

12:55

risk to hire infrastructure into fault that

12:58

a higher for London is very very

13:00

real ceiling. On his chief economist

13:02

at Rbc Capital Markets and Investment

13:04

Bank, she says the final push

13:07

to bring inflation best under control

13:09

is proving the hardest. It's definitely

13:11

telling us that that last mile

13:13

getting inflation's back into the reserve

13:16

banks two to three per cent

13:18

target range is really quite challenging

13:20

are take away from the first

13:22

quarter in place and data is

13:25

that was stronger right across the

13:27

board. City Killer leads the key

13:29

call measures of inflation. and services

13:32

inflation and stuff that's what the

13:34

reserve bank is looking at most

13:36

closely the latest figures said his

13:39

services like education health care and

13:41

housing are among the biggest drivers

13:43

of inflation with prices still rising

13:46

fast education feast days at the

13:48

fastest pace since twenty twelve in

13:51

the march quarter rents recorded their

13:53

biggest rise in fifteen years and

13:55

insurance costs took their biggest jump

13:58

in twenty three years Here's

14:00

Sue Le Nong again. And all

14:02

of that is pointing to this

14:04

ongoing stickiness in service sector inflation,

14:07

and it's keeping overall inflation higher

14:09

than is desirable. And so our

14:11

worry really is that trying to

14:13

get inflation down, particularly service sector

14:17

inflation is proving quite challenging. She

14:19

says a tight labor market isn't

14:21

helping. Figures last week

14:23

showed unemployment is still near historic

14:25

lows. So what does that

14:27

mean for interest rates? Now at 4.35%. Sue

14:30

Le Nong says she's

14:32

not expecting any rate cuts now until

14:34

next year. We're now only looking for

14:36

two cuts in the first half of

14:38

2025. Previously,

14:41

we had two cuts at the end of

14:43

this year and two in 25. So

14:46

we have both pushed back the start

14:48

of some cuts and reduced the quantum.

14:50

And that reflects in our view this

14:53

somewhat firmer labor market than

14:55

we thought inflation that is

14:58

proving elevated and a bit

15:00

sticky against a global

15:02

backdrop where we expect, for example, other

15:04

central banks to be not cutting as

15:06

much, including the Fed and the Bank

15:08

of England. And where does that leave

15:10

Australia compared to other advanced economies? We've

15:12

been asking ourselves that as well. And

15:15

I think the big difference in Australia

15:17

is our starting point for cash rates

15:19

at 4.35 is

15:21

a lot lower than Canada, the US,

15:24

New Zealand, UK. So

15:27

we've always been of the view that

15:29

any easing in Australia would likely be

15:31

later than most of those central

15:33

banks. It'd probably be a smaller amount

15:35

because our starting point is lower. And

15:38

so we maintain that. And

15:40

we think that's even more the

15:42

case now when we're getting signs

15:44

of still elevated inflation and

15:47

a fairly tight labor market. The

15:49

opposition argues today's figures highlight the

15:51

need for spending restraint in the

15:53

federal budget. Now, Whitehead.

15:55

This is PM. I'm Samantha Donovan. You

15:58

can hear all our programs live. or

16:00

later on the ABC Listen App,

16:02

ahead the latest on Donald Trump's

16:05

criminal trial in New York. In

16:13

New South Wales there are calls

16:15

for urgent reform of the justice

16:17

system after the alleged murder of

16:19

a young woman in the town

16:21

of Ford's in the state's central

16:23

west this week. The New South

16:26

Wales Premier has conceded the 28-year-old

16:28

mother was failed by the justice

16:30

system. Domestic violence workers say stricter

16:32

conditions need to be placed on

16:34

men on bail and more funding

16:36

is needed for rehabilitation programs. Alison

16:39

Shauve reports. Already this

16:41

year, 11 more women have

16:43

died of gender-based violence compared to

16:45

the same time last year. And

16:48

today in Victoria, police revealed a 49-year-old

16:50

woman has been found dead in Cobram

16:52

on the Victoria, New South Wales border,

16:55

a 39-year-old man who the woman knew

16:57

has been arrested. Over the course of

16:59

this year, we have seen too

17:01

many women already in 2024 lose their

17:06

life. This has to stop.

17:08

Victorian Premier Jacinta Allen says

17:10

everyone in the community has a role

17:13

to play to stamp out violence towards

17:15

women. This is something we all have

17:17

a responsibility to do. If

17:19

we see disrespect being shown, we've

17:21

got to call it out. The

17:23

calls for cultural change come as

17:25

the New South Wales Premier Chris Minnes

17:28

admitted the 28-year-old mother, Molly Teishurst,

17:30

who was found dead this week, was

17:32

let down by the state's justice

17:34

system. I am saying right now

17:36

that the system obviously failed Molly and the

17:39

status quo is not going to work. Molly

17:42

Teishurst's former husband, Daniel Billings, has

17:44

been arrested and charged with her

17:46

murder. The Magistrates Court heard he

17:48

was on bail for several violent

17:50

charges, including rape, intimidation and stalking.

17:52

The state government has ordered a

17:54

review of the state's bail laws

17:57

and is seeking urgent advice from

17:59

the Crown advocate on what

18:01

changes are needed. Barrister Jeffrey

18:03

Watson says a review is

18:05

pointless, arguing the answer is

18:07

already obvious. It's a

18:09

need to monitor the

18:11

men who are accused of

18:14

these crimes. Now some of them would

18:16

be quite innocent, but you

18:18

can't take that risk anymore. And what I'm

18:20

talking about is devices which

18:22

permit you to know where the

18:24

person is at a particular point

18:26

in time, ankle bracelets, or they

18:28

are reporting obligations. Mr Watson,

18:31

a director at the Centre for

18:33

Public Integrity, says these powers are

18:35

used in other cases, for instance,

18:37

para-suspects. It will involve a

18:40

curtailment of some of the liberties of some of

18:42

the people who are the subject of these orders.

18:45

But in light of the good that it could

18:47

do for our community if we stop men killing

18:49

women, then that's a small price to

18:51

pay. He says legal intervention is

18:53

going to be more effective than

18:55

continuing to drive conversations around changing

18:58

male behaviour. People have been

19:00

talking about cultural changes of that kind since

19:02

Adam and Eve. It's silly. That

19:04

isn't working. That's been tried

19:06

and it's failed. Now we

19:09

need to experiment with our

19:11

perhaps more dramatic attempts at

19:13

stopping this serious problem. But

19:16

domestic violence advocates say more

19:18

funding for rehabilitation programs is

19:20

urgently needed. Elizabeth Shaw is

19:22

CEO of Relationships Australia, New

19:24

South Wales. What we

19:26

need is more investment. In New

19:28

South Wales, we have 17

19:31

providers who are accredited to provide men's

19:33

behaviour change programs. There would be an

19:35

awful lot of areas. Most areas don't

19:38

have a local provider. She says her

19:40

organisation has nearly 250 men on their

19:42

wait list to be part of the

19:44

18-week educational

19:48

program. They will wait between three

19:50

and five months for a

19:52

service, which I think all of your

19:54

listeners would agree is an unacceptable position

19:56

for a man who's Self-professed.

20:00

As someone who's using violence a

20:02

registered psychologists herself, Elizabeth Shaw has

20:04

also been a facilitator of the

20:06

program. What my experience was when

20:08

I was running those programs is

20:11

stairs them in quite quickly, would

20:13

start to hold each other to

20:15

account and would in fact sometimes

20:17

be horrified at the behavior of

20:19

others and think them maybe I've

20:21

got a chance to change these.

20:24

Patrick who doesn't want to give

20:26

his last name and roads in

20:28

a men's behavior change program. A

20:30

few years ago and says it was

20:32

life changing. Their was yelling and

20:34

screaming. they was on, you know, wrestles

20:37

i the car keys because I wanted

20:39

to go somewhere. He said it was

20:41

an element of physical. However, I wanted

20:43

to be certain that if I ever

20:46

were was in a situation where I

20:48

became a rails me in and in

20:50

an angry sort of way. That or

20:53

had the tools to be able to

20:55

deal with those emotions and act appropriately.

20:57

He. Says governments have a responsibility

21:00

to increase funding for programs

21:02

like these. When you hear about

21:04

the absolute extremities over with murders and and

21:06

the things that have occurred, but he has

21:08

that in order to try and address that

21:11

you can't go. Straight. Through

21:13

that you have to address it

21:15

from the grand them work your

21:17

way out. If the government a

21:19

serious about reducing the city rights

21:21

reducing that but label of ball

21:23

state needs to be programs that

21:25

people can can go to the

21:27

wanted signs between men. Patrick ending

21:29

that report from. Allison South And

21:31

if you're in an abusive situation

21:33

or you know someone who is,

21:36

please call One Eight Hundred Respect

21:38

That one, Eight hundred seven three

21:40

seven seven three To if it's

21:42

an emergency. Call triple the road.

21:45

and elderly seek man in

21:47

western australia has had a

21:49

big legal wins convincing a

21:51

tribunal he was eligible to

21:53

access the states euthanasia's games

21:55

under w a voluntary assisted

21:57

dying laws applicants must be

22:00

called an ordinary resident of the state

22:02

for the last year but this man

22:04

had mostly lived overseas for the last

22:06

15 years. As Kean

22:09

Burke reports the Tribunal's decision

22:11

could have implications for other

22:13

states. We can't name

22:15

this man who's fought to access voluntary

22:17

assisted dying in Western Australia but his

22:19

daughter wants you to know a bit

22:21

about him. She sent a statement to

22:23

the ABC. Our father is

22:25

a very strong resilient proud

22:27

and fiercely independent man. She

22:29

also wants his story to help

22:32

others struggling to access voluntary assisted

22:34

dying or VAD. The 83 year

22:36

old man was diagnosed with laryngeal

22:38

cancer which obstructed his airway leaving

22:40

him unable to breathe, eat or

22:42

drink without assistance. He would

22:44

endure a lot of suffering both physically

22:47

and mentally if he was unable

22:49

to end his life on his terms. On

22:51

medical grounds he met the scheme's criteria

22:53

but the question of residency was more

22:55

challenging because applicants must have been an

22:57

ordinary WA resident for the previous 12

23:00

months and this man had

23:02

spent much of the last 15 years living

23:04

in Bali. At the state administrative

23:06

tribunal last month he argued Perth

23:08

was his home and judge Henry

23:10

Jackson agreed. In his ruling Judge

23:13

Jackson said the man maintained a

23:15

connection returning for birthdays and appointments.

23:17

I place considerable weight on the evidence

23:20

that he does not appear to have

23:22

called Bali home when returning to it

23:24

but called Perth home when returning here.

23:27

More than 400 West Australians

23:29

have been approved for VAD since it was legalized

23:31

in 2021. A few rare

23:34

but recent cases have questioned the

23:36

ordinary resident requirement. Aidan Ricciardo is

23:39

a medical law lecturer at the

23:41

University of Western Australia. This requirement

23:43

was really designed to prevent people

23:46

from coming to Western Australia purely

23:48

for the purpose of accessing voluntary

23:50

assisted dying. Now these

23:53

people really can't be described as

23:56

people who have come to Western

23:58

Australia purely to access. voluntary

24:00

sister-dealing. These people

24:02

are people who've had long enduring

24:05

relationships to Western Australia. He says

24:07

the decisions unlikely to see a

24:09

significant rise in those approved for

24:11

VAD but with it now legal

24:13

in all states he believes it

24:15

could have an impact elsewhere. Given

24:17

that the law is relatively

24:19

uniform across the jurisdictions it's highly

24:22

likely that the same interpretation will

24:24

be applied in other jurisdictions. WA

24:27

Health Minister Amber Jade Sanderson has

24:29

described the Tribunal's decision as a

24:31

sensible interpretation. Steve Walker agrees he's

24:33

the president of Dying with Dignity

24:35

WA. He's urging the government to

24:37

reconsider criteria that excludes people with

24:40

dementia and other similar conditions. How

24:42

to deal with that is not

24:44

simple it's not easy but we

24:46

want to have it discussed during

24:48

the review. Minister Sanderson has previously

24:50

said the laws are about personal

24:52

autonomy and decision-making which can't be

24:54

exercised by a person with dementia

24:57

and better care is the answer.

24:59

Kian Burke reporting and if you

25:02

or anyone you know needs help

25:04

please call Lifeline the number is

25:06

13 11 14.

25:09

In New York Donald Trump's

25:11

criminal trial has heard a

25:13

veteran tabloid publisher paid people

25:16

to bury negative stories that

25:18

may have damaged the Republicans

25:20

2016 presidential campaign. Mr

25:22

Trump is facing 34 charges

25:24

of falsifying business records in this

25:26

so called hush money case and

25:29

as Rachel Hayter reports he's now also

25:31

accused of repeatedly violating a gag

25:34

order imposed by the judge. The

25:37

plan was to catch and

25:39

kill damaging stories about then

25:41

businessman and reality TV star

25:43

Donald J Trump as he

25:45

campaigned for the White House

25:47

in 2016. Our movement is

25:49

about replacing he failed

25:51

and corrupt. Running the

25:53

operation was the so-called

25:58

tabloid King David David Pecker,

26:00

who at the time was the

26:02

publisher of the National Enquirer magazine.

26:05

David Smith is an associate professor

26:07

at the United States Studies Centre

26:09

at the University of Sydney. Former

26:12

ally of his, David Pecker,

26:14

detailed in great depth how

26:16

Trump and him discussed what

26:19

prosecutors have called a conspiracy

26:21

to help Trump in the

26:23

election by killing stories that

26:25

were negative to Trump. David

26:28

Pecker told the court he offered

26:30

to be Mr Trump's eyes and

26:32

ears to suppress stories that might

26:35

hurt his presidential chances, including

26:37

an allegation by a doorman

26:39

at Trump Tower claiming Mr

26:41

Trump had a love child.

26:44

Mr Pecker testified he paid nearly $50,000

26:48

Australian dollars for the rights to

26:50

the story so that it wouldn't

26:52

be published. He said the story

26:54

turned out not to be true, but he

26:57

took action because of the potential

26:59

embarrassment it would cause Mr Trump

27:01

and his campaign. They did

27:03

favourable stories on Donald Trump and

27:05

that Trump's urging. Nick Ackerman

27:08

is a New York attorney and

27:10

a former assistant special Watergate prosecutor.

27:12

They did derogatory stories on some

27:15

of his opponents, including that Ted

27:17

Cruz's father was somehow involved in

27:19

the Kennedy assassination. As

27:21

crazy as that all sounds. In

27:23

this so-called hush money trial, Donald

27:26

Trump has pleaded not guilty to

27:28

34 counts of

27:30

falsifying business records while attempting to

27:32

hide his efforts to illegally influence

27:34

the 2016 election. David

27:38

Smith explains what the prosecution

27:40

is alleging. What makes this

27:42

serious is that the

27:44

prosecution is saying crime

27:46

of falsifying business records, which is

27:48

usually a misdemeanor crime, that is,

27:50

it wouldn't carry a prison sentence,

27:53

was elevated to a higher level,

27:56

was elevated to a felony crime

27:58

because it was done in

28:00

commission of another crime, which was

28:02

an illegal campaign contribution. They're

28:05

saying because of the fact that

28:07

this hush money payment was materially

28:09

contributing to Trump's campaign by keeping

28:11

damaging information out of the 2016

28:14

election, that that means it

28:18

was an illegal campaign contribution under

28:20

federal law. So it was a

28:22

state crime of falsifying

28:24

business records, helping

28:26

with a federal crime of violating

28:29

election law. If that sounds complicated,

28:31

it is. It's a

28:33

legally untested argument. Nobody has

28:36

ever attempted to link this

28:38

state crime with that federal

28:41

crime before. And

28:43

Trump's lawyers are saying in

28:45

response that there was nothing

28:47

illegal about Trump trying to

28:49

influence the 2016 election

28:51

because he was a presidential

28:53

candidate. As his lawyer Todd

28:55

Blanche said, that's just democracy.

28:57

Prosecutors in this case have

29:00

also argued the former president

29:02

willfully violated a gag order

29:05

calling potential witnesses sleazebags. Associate

29:08

professor of law at Georgetown University,

29:10

Vida Johnson, argues that might hurt

29:12

Donald Trump down the track. In

29:14

the event of a conviction, this

29:17

judge is the judge that would

29:19

have to sentence former President Trump.

29:21

And if he doesn't believe the person

29:24

who's been found guilty of the crime

29:26

can follow directions

29:28

and order, that's someone who's

29:31

no longer a good candidate

29:33

for probation. That's

29:35

someone who a judge might think, you know

29:37

what's appropriate is jail time or prison time.

29:40

The judge has reserved his

29:42

decision on the Republican presidential

29:44

candidates alleged violation of the

29:46

gag order. Blanche gave a

29:48

stark warning to Mr. Trump's

29:50

lawyer, telling him he's losing

29:52

credibility. Rachel Haiter, thanks for

29:54

joining me for PM. I'm Samantha Donovan.

29:57

We'll be back at the same time tomorrow.

30:05

Hi, I'm Sam Hawley, host

30:07

of the ABC News Daily

30:09

Podcast. It must feel

30:12

like a never-ending battle for Rupert Murdoch.

30:14

His British newspaper group is continuing to

30:16

face legal action more than a decade

30:18

after the phone hacking scandal came to

30:21

a head. Now he's settled

30:23

with the actor Shue Grant. Today,

30:25

ABC Media Watch host Paul Barry

30:27

on how Murdoch has paid out

30:29

many millions to avoid time.

30:32

Look for the ABC News Daily

30:34

Podcast on the ABC News.