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1:32

Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York

1:34

magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm

1:36

Cara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. And

1:38

you've been glo- We've been both globetrotting,

1:41

haven't we? We have been, except you keep

1:43

working. You keep working. I know. So

1:45

I was in Argentina with Louis, which I

1:47

did a podcast while you were away with

1:49

Lydia Polgreen and John Favreau and

1:51

Louis. But I'm back in DC.

1:54

I hate culture, but I feel like every once in a

1:56

while I need to do something cultural for the kids. So-

2:00

And for you. Took the boys to Egypt and

2:02

went with a... By the way, if you ever

2:04

get a family you can travel with, where everyone

2:06

gets along, you got to hold on to those

2:09

people. So we went with the Bjornson's who had

2:11

this wonderful, like, lovely family. And

2:13

we did one of the... No, it wasn't the Galloway's, but

2:15

go ahead. No, we're

2:17

the dysfunctional family where when they recede

2:19

to their cabins at night, they thank

2:21

God that they are who they are,

2:23

as opposed to us. We

2:27

did one of these flat river cruises where you

2:29

stop every day with an archeologist who takes on

2:31

a tour of the Sphinx or Crypt or... Oh

2:33

my God. How was it? You

2:35

know, it was... Look, civilization

2:37

and time and a lot

2:40

of the stuff that, quite

2:42

frankly, I think about is really

2:45

brought home when you go through Egypt. And the thing

2:47

I register is that my kids

2:49

didn't enjoy it, but they're

2:52

going to really enjoy it when they're older. They're going to look

2:54

back on it. Oh. There's no

2:56

video games. Well, there's no Twitchy not being on

2:58

their devices. And you could tell they're kind of bored

3:00

like three hours into the tour of the inside of

3:04

a pyramid or whatever. You can just see them getting kind of

3:06

Twitchy. But I just know when they're older, they're going to... Don't

3:10

you think it's some things that you enjoy more after

3:12

they've happened? I had pretty

3:14

good travelers as kids. Louis and Alex really

3:16

went across the world, especially with Megan, who

3:18

we work for Google. So she took them

3:21

everywhere. They met

3:23

the Dalai Lama at one point. Well,

3:26

you know, there's a word for people who get

3:28

audience with the Dalai. Who?

3:30

Rich. It means you're

3:33

rich, Cara. No. She

3:35

was with Google. Okay. Yeah. She

3:38

was with the world state. Yeah. Be

3:40

above rich. No, but it wasn't personal. It was worked

3:42

up. So she... He just admired your

3:44

spiritual aura. He needed to meet with you? No, whatever. I

3:47

don't know why she was with the Dalai Lama. I have no idea. But

3:49

in any case, when she... Uh-huh. She would go to

3:51

a lot of cool places. I'm sure. She went to

3:53

all over Africa with Google because she would run google.org. And that's

3:55

why. So they went all over Africa,

3:57

all over... the

4:00

world and so she'd often take the children which

4:03

we would pull out of school and thought it was

4:05

a good idea. And at one point Alex had been

4:07

to like so many countries, it was crazy, it was

4:09

like an enormous, like more than I'd been. And

4:13

someone was like, he was I don't know, eight

4:16

or nine and she was like, little boy, have

4:18

you ever traveled anywhere interesting? And he was

4:20

like, I've been to 65 countries and I bet

4:22

the Dalai Lama. I've met the

4:24

Dalai Lama. Oh, that's

4:26

so Alex. He liked that stuff. He liked all

4:29

of it and so did Louie. I've

4:31

been fashion hunting with Mandela. How about you, Ben?

4:33

No, no, no, they didn't do that. They

4:36

did not do that. Although one time Megan

4:38

was on a plane, they were going to

4:40

Faz, Google was, this was a Google trip

4:42

and it was with Larry and Sergey and

4:44

a whole gang of them and they were

4:46

going to Faz to see Blano. No,

4:49

my kids did not go on this trip but Megan was going

4:51

on it and they wouldn't let me on

4:53

the Google plane because Larry Page was like, well, you

4:55

can look at it, I wanted to see it and

4:58

they're like, you can look at it but you can't

5:00

say anything and I said, I can't promise that. Literally

5:02

what every woman I've gotten naked says

5:04

to me, you can look but

5:07

you can't touch her coming side. Oh my God, that

5:09

was good. That is impromptu porn humor. Sorry, go ahead.

5:11

So they wouldn't let me get on it. I

5:15

had dropped Megan off, they wouldn't let me see it

5:17

because I would talk all about it of course because

5:19

I wish I could to this day talk about what

5:21

was on the Google plane but I never was allowed

5:23

on it. And then

5:25

they were saying they had bought carbon, this

5:27

is really early carbon credits, they were into

5:29

buying carbon credits and he was explaining it

5:31

to me in detail, Larry Page, about the

5:33

carbon credits and because they

5:36

were going to fly around Kilimanjaro to

5:38

see it from the air, like

5:40

to see the problems of climate

5:42

change by flying around it and I

5:44

literally was like, but we're buying

5:46

carbon credits because to make it better, I was

5:49

like, why don't you just not fly over Kilimanjaro

5:51

to do so but that's what they were

5:53

doing. So where did you go after that?

5:59

I went to Israel. Well, one, I talk

6:01

a lot. One

6:04

of the many things I don't like about myself is I virtue

6:06

signal a lot and I talk about doing shit and I don't

6:08

do it. So on the six-month

6:10

anniversary of the attack, anniversary is the long

6:12

word, six-month marker, I decided to go to

6:14

Israel. Well, I went to the Nova Music

6:18

Festival Memorial, and I'm

6:20

sure that'll become a memorial. It already is. Then

6:23

I went to... Let me start with the

6:25

good stuff. Tel Aviv, as anyone who's been there,

6:27

it's a cross between Miami and Berlin. It's a

6:29

wonderful city. It's distinctive. However

6:31

you feel about the situation, it's a fantastic city. I

6:35

would have dinner and someone overheard that I

6:37

was visiting from America and 11 people got

6:39

up and waited in line just to shake

6:41

my hand and say, thank you for coming.

6:44

They're just so grateful that you're visiting. They're

6:46

having trouble getting people there. I had

6:50

a wonderful... It was very meaningful. I

6:53

went into the Gaza envelope. I took a tour

6:55

of Kibbutz Farazza, which was one of two Kibbutz's

6:57

that was attacked. That was obviously very heavy and

6:59

very upsetting. They have pictures of the

7:01

kids and the people who were murdered. That

7:04

was very heavy and very upsetting. I

7:06

did weird stuff. I

7:08

went to the crossing

7:11

where the convoys of the humanitarian

7:13

aid trucks are crossing. There's a

7:15

narrative that Israel

7:17

is, for

7:20

a lot of reasons, falsely in

7:22

my view, there's an impression that they're not

7:25

providing humanitarian aid. Literally, I had stopped

7:27

and took pictures of this convoy that

7:29

was over a mile long. To be

7:32

fair, the Gulf Nations, Qatar, UAE, and

7:34

the Kingdom are supplying a lot of

7:36

the materials. The amount of food and

7:38

aid that is going into Gaza right

7:40

now, it's just staggering. Not

7:43

enough. Obviously, the whole thing

7:45

is great. Okay, but not enough. The question

7:47

is, where's it going? What happens when it

7:49

gets there? Anyways, that's another talk

7:51

show. I'll

7:53

say this without getting

7:56

too deep into the arguments

7:58

around this. It was just

8:00

very rewarding. rewarding. And

8:02

people know where I stand on the issue,

8:04

but I wanted to do more than just

8:06

talk about it. I wanted to go. So

8:08

yeah, it was very rewarding, but very obviously,

8:10

as you

8:15

can understand, very heavy and upsetting

8:17

at the same time. And also while I was there,

8:20

there's huge protests against Netanyahu.

8:22

I mean huge protests. But

8:27

also I said, I said, I'm going to come back. When should I

8:29

come back? And they said, you should absolutely come back. I feel what

8:31

they call it. But the gay

8:33

pride parade there, they say is the best time

8:35

in Tel Aviv. It's like

8:37

one of the biggest gay pride parades in the world.

8:41

But it's, look, it's a very

8:43

progressive, interesting place right now. Anyway,

8:46

I was happy to go. Well, we'll

8:48

see a progressive. I mean, I think, it's

8:51

a very complex, and obviously Netanyahu is

8:53

unpopular. He'd lose the election today from

8:55

what I was reading over the weekend.

8:58

At the same time, he's not going to call elections.

9:00

And there remains all

9:03

these vexing issues. And this bombing

9:05

of this aid convoy

9:07

from World Central Kitchen certainly has

9:09

caused a lot of rancor in

9:11

this country at least and across

9:13

the world. So

9:16

it continues to be a vexing situation

9:18

politically and obviously

9:20

from the people on the ground there. But

9:23

hopefully it will, even Trump

9:26

has moved away from total support, which is

9:28

interesting. I don't know if you notice, he

9:30

said they have a PR problem, et cetera,

9:32

et cetera. Well, I mean, good or bad,

9:35

democracies wag

9:37

the dog here. The democracy, and that is

9:40

the elections. You know, Biden's

9:42

softening his stance because quite frankly, I think he's

9:44

worried about Michigan. And I think Trump sees an

9:46

opportunity. I think he might just be.

9:49

Trump also, you mean, is also softening

9:51

his stance. Well, Biden's rhetoric has changed

9:53

a little bit. I mean, look. Sure

9:55

has. I'm

9:57

of a view that the best way to end war is to win it.

9:59

I don't... I think they should be calling

10:01

for a ceasefire. I think they should be calling

10:03

for unconditional surrender and release of the hostages. And

10:05

I just have a different view than a lot

10:08

of people, especially young people on this. And

10:10

we can have a civil conversation, as you and I

10:12

do, and discuss

10:15

it. But I don't see how, and

10:17

I'll be honest with you, Kara, I think a lot of it

10:19

is optics. I think the US is who

10:21

has its own history with terrorists and

10:24

even the Gulf nations who

10:26

have been eerily quiet on this. Understand

10:32

Israel's right to exist. And

10:34

when Secretary of Defense Austin is meeting

10:37

with the Israeli Defense Forces about them

10:39

going into Raffa, I

10:41

think that the people, I

10:44

think a lot of this is optics. I

10:46

think the US recognizes that this current situation

10:48

is unsustainable. If Israel

10:50

took over the US, it'd be

10:52

business as usual. If Hamas

10:55

and. Yes, I understand. I get that. I

10:57

get that. I'm just saying things

10:59

are changing in terms of our relationship

11:01

with Israel. You

11:03

and I, for all intents and purses, don't

11:06

matter. It's the next generation which has changed

11:08

rather drastically. And that's just true. It's just

11:10

the way it is. And I don't think they're doing

11:12

themselves any favors by. It's the same thing we didn't

11:14

do ourselves any favors by going into Iraq.

11:17

It just changes. Because

11:19

there was a disproportionate response. That's the argument,

11:21

right? Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah. But well,

11:24

there's a lot to get to today. We

11:26

should have a longer debate about this and bring actual

11:28

experts in. But I definitely

11:30

think just talking to young people,

11:34

I've spent a lot of time with young people, even

11:36

just in Argentina, they have a point of view that

11:38

has changed drastically, I think. Anyway, we've

11:40

got a lot to get to today, including

11:42

what's next for Disney after I'm thinking that

11:45

proxy battle. And Congress unveiling a new legislation

11:47

to protect online privacy, finally. Plus, our friend

11:49

of Tippett is NYU history professor and writer

11:52

Ruth Ben-Giat, who will explain why Trump's dictator

11:54

talk should not be taken lightly. But first,

11:56

at the time of this taping, MediStock is

11:58

up 8% lower. the last five

12:00

days. The jump comes after analysts raise

12:03

targets for the stock saying it has

12:05

competitive advantage to gain in the digital

12:07

ad market as it integrates AI. Also

12:09

in Metta's favor, a motion filed to

12:11

dismiss the FTC's monopoly claims better revealed

12:13

Instagram's ad revenue for 2021, $32 billion, which is

12:15

more than YouTube. Oh my God, that was such a

12:20

great purchase. The pop also caused Mark

12:22

Zuckerberg to pass Elon Musk in wealth taking

12:25

over the top spot as the third richest

12:27

person in the world. Oh, Scott,

12:29

I mean, there's obviously not. He's won the wrestling match, whether

12:31

he likes it or not. I don't really care about Elon

12:33

here, but what a performance.

12:35

This is something again, you had stressed,

12:38

had not bought but had stressed. Yeah,

12:41

each year I make a stock pick. In November of 22, my

12:43

stock pick for 23 was Metta and it's

12:46

up 353% since then. This company, I

12:48

mean, first off, at some point, we're

12:51

going to have to have an actual

12:53

wake and some closure and a funeral

12:55

for this ridiculous consensual hallucination around headsets.

12:58

I mean, granted, they continue to send

13:01

weight loss tips to 5'10", 95 pound,

13:03

17 year old girls. I

13:07

really appreciate a business model where I get to

13:09

vomit up all my inventory of all my experiences

13:11

and pretend that it's poetry. I mean, I don't

13:13

like the company. I don't like the people who

13:15

run it. It's arguably the best run

13:17

business in the world right now. My

13:20

colleague, my former colleague at NYU, a guy

13:23

named Peter Golder, a strategy guy, really brilliant,

13:25

who ended up going to the Tuck School

13:27

at Dartmouth. He had this fascinating insight that

13:30

I wrote about in my first book. Then

13:33

he said, the true innovators are terrible for shareholder

13:35

value because they have to be so far out

13:37

in front that they get mud

13:39

on their face, they're else in the back. It's

13:41

the number two. Apple's the perfect example of the

13:43

second mouse coming in. You

13:45

could argue around the key issue here. Elon Musk is

13:47

the innovator. He came in and he laid off 80%

13:50

of Twitter staff and from a consumer standpoint,

13:55

the fact that he can run this company on

13:57

one fifth the number of people, granted, it's not just the

13:59

number. doing well, but the operations that continue

14:01

to go, he's sort of with the innovator

14:04

there. Now, what Mark Zuckerberg said

14:06

is, I got an idea. Let's

14:08

lay off 20% of our staff and not be assholes, and

14:11

we can hold onto the revenue. And that has

14:13

created what is arguably the biggest business trend of

14:15

the last 18 months. And that is

14:17

these companies thinking, you know what? We can

14:19

have all of the great taste of reduced expenses without

14:22

the calories of reduced revenues. Yeah,

14:25

and they did it right. They did it efficiently. And

14:27

Meta has also leveraged AI to get

14:30

around the kneecapping that failed from Tim

14:32

Cook. Their targeting is more

14:34

efficient now. Instagram, which

14:36

continues probably to be the best acquisition

14:39

in the history of tech, is an

14:41

absolute juggernaut, still growing 20-plus percent a

14:43

year while they cut costs. Yeah. You

14:46

know, let me just note something. Scott, when you recommended, you

14:48

said 2022. I recommend. Meta

14:51

was my stock pick of the year in November

14:53

of 2022. Okay.

14:55

October 28th, 2022 is at its lowest in

14:57

the past five years, $99. It's

15:01

essentially $100. And

15:03

now it's at $527. Amazing.

15:08

If we'd only bought, we'd be on my

15:10

G650 going back to BA. I got it.

15:13

To hang out with Louis. So

15:15

where is it going to go here? When's it going to go from here? This

15:18

is in a stock I would get near right now because it

15:20

feels expensive. But at the

15:22

same time, there's so many green flags here. The

15:29

scrutiny around TikTok is good

15:31

for Meta. The

15:35

growth of Reels, the leveraging of AI. I

15:37

mean, everything... But you still wouldn't buy it

15:40

right now. I do. I

15:42

feel like after a stock... I have trouble buying

15:44

a stock after it's gone up four and a

15:46

half fold in the last 15 months.

15:50

But I wouldn't want to short this thing. And

15:54

he's finally waking up and starting to reduce

15:56

the expense. And he'll start laying out people,

15:58

making excuses around the mixed reality. ayahuasca

16:01

trip that he had or the

16:03

whatever you call it the mena. What do they call these things? The

16:05

oculus. Yeah, they're there. They still

16:07

haven't. It's 34 times its

16:09

P ratio is 34. It's

16:12

still not, I mean that's not ridiculously expensive given

16:14

its growth. There's probably,

16:16

there's probably some still some upside there but

16:18

I don't, I mean the juice has been

16:20

squeezed pretty hard here up four and a

16:23

half fold. The company this big, its stock

16:25

is up four and a half fold in

16:27

the last 15 months. That's

16:30

just, it's doing more revenue. I mean

16:32

Instagram's doing more revenue than YouTube right now. I

16:35

know. So. Isn't that amazing? It's

16:37

also a great business by the way. Yeah.

16:40

Anyways, meta is killing it. It's

16:43

staggering. I hope it gets broken up and

16:46

I think parents continue to pay a huge

16:48

cost for their dominance and their monopoly power

16:50

here. Yeah. I was

16:52

just down just saying but of course people

16:54

took millions out just so you know lots

16:56

of people took millions. So I was just

16:58

pointing out Trump media value

17:02

declines again continues to decline

17:05

through socials shares but

17:07

people are taking money out of

17:09

the company just so you know. Yeah, that's

17:11

insane. That's crazy town. Dang it.

17:15

Oh, speaking of something that I think is a

17:17

little insane actually, a group of California businesses are

17:19

coming after governance Gavin Newsom saying taxes are out

17:21

of control. This is a complaint that lots of

17:23

people had about California. The businesses

17:25

have spent 16 million dollars gathering enough signatures

17:27

to put a measure on the ballot in

17:30

November. The measure would require two-thirds of voters

17:32

to approve local tax increases and roll back

17:34

some recent ones. Real estate businesses are

17:36

some of the biggest funders, personally response to additional

17:38

charge placed on luxury home sales that passed

17:40

in Los Angeles in 2022. Newsom

17:43

and other local officials took out a full page

17:45

ad in LA Times and San Francisco Chronicle calling

17:47

out businesses like Chevron and UPS saying the move

17:49

would kill funding for basic services. You

17:52

know, California doesn't actually have the highest. I

17:54

saw a chart doesn't have the actual highest

17:56

factors and actually there's a big boom in

17:59

San Francisco. in real estate now because of AI

18:01

and a lot of companies coming back and it's on

18:03

an upswing. I don't know what to think of this.

18:06

I think they want to just – it's

18:08

actually not the highest taxes, which is surprising.

18:10

Well, okay. The

18:12

market is really an incredible beast. New

18:16

York, Hawaii and California are three of

18:18

the five highest taxes. Now

18:20

if you had to – if you could just live

18:22

anywhere in the US, where would three – I mean

18:26

the reason why these places have the highest taxes in

18:28

the world is because they can

18:30

and you know why? For the most

18:32

part, for the most part, it's worth

18:34

it. For all the people

18:36

shitposting California who – all

18:38

these wealthy people in VCs, they could live

18:40

anywhere and yet they decide to stay put

18:42

and just continue to bitch about California. The

18:46

thing I don't like – I mean I don't have to remember

18:48

Howard Jarvis in Proposition 13 but he

18:50

basically made it – he made it impossible

18:52

to raise taxes without a two-thirds vote and

18:54

you ended up with really – with incredibly

18:57

budget constrained school systems.

19:00

These things end up being suicide packs that

19:02

constrict local government. What I am a fan

19:04

of is states competing

19:07

and you have seen a lot of people move out of California

19:09

to Texas and at some point, the

19:12

lawmakers have to in an agile

19:14

way face the issues and either

19:16

increase social services or

19:19

decrease taxes. But I've

19:21

been thinking a lot about taxes, Kara. I've

19:23

been thinking a lot about taxes. Well,

19:26

you know Daniel Kahneman, the

19:28

behavioral economist passed away two weeks ago. Yeah,

19:31

two weeks ago, amazing. I'm a big fan of

19:33

his books, Thinking Slow and Fast, kind

19:35

of like – it was one of those books I – I

19:38

don't read a lot but if I like a book, I'll read it

19:40

twice and try and like submit it into my memory

19:42

so I can sound smarter than I am and that was one of

19:45

those books. But he did

19:47

great research looking at the effects on money

19:49

and happiness and the reality

19:51

is money is correlated to happiness. That's the bad

19:53

news. The good news is that it tops out

19:56

and if your objective is to be

19:59

happy, then that's At some certain point, shouldn't

20:02

we go back to the 50s and

20:04

60s where above a certain point of

20:06

extreme wealth, you get taxed at 90%? So

20:10

it's just a real argument for returning to

20:12

a much more progressive tax structure at the

20:14

very high level. And to be fair, I

20:16

think Governor Newsom's taxes of late are

20:19

mostly about what a lot of people

20:21

consider onerous, but taxes on the very,

20:23

very wealthy. And this

20:25

is my view. Okay, so

20:27

say taxes become ridiculously high above a

20:30

crazy amount of money. Here's the thing.

20:33

Getting to hold onto that money, it's not going to make any

20:35

happier. Yeah. Well, here's

20:37

what they... I had a tax burn just for people who know New York, Hawaii,

20:40

Maine, Vermont, Connecticut, New Jersey,

20:42

Maryland, Minnesota, Illinois. It's

20:45

not California necessarily. And

20:48

it has high taxes. The lowest one is Oklahoma,

20:50

7.12%. Well, doesn't that make sense?

20:54

I mean, again, see above. High

20:56

tax. It's like, okay, a Porsche costs

20:59

a lot of money, and guess what? It's worth it.

21:01

There's also higher sales tax burden, so it

21:04

unduly hits the poor in

21:06

some of these states that have no taxes. Regressive

21:09

taxes. Yeah, sales taxes, things like that. Yeah.

21:13

Anyway, we'll see. We'll see where it goes. I think

21:15

he's going to have a good year in

21:17

California. Lastly, Tesla revealed it's robo-taxing early August.

21:19

Elon Musk announced. I have one word for

21:21

this. I'll see it when I see it.

21:23

Fine. It's not going to be a

21:25

product. It's not hand waving because he's so... There was

21:27

a very long Wall Street Journal article about the

21:30

real problems at Tesla, which we've been talking about

21:32

were coming for a while. product,

21:35

competition, crazy toxic

21:37

owner. Here's where we

21:40

are. Tesla just jumped a little bit when he talked

21:42

about robo-taxing, but this is just... Just

21:45

make good cars, Elon, and focus on them and

21:47

stop virtue signaling all over Twitter. That's

21:49

really pretty much what I would say. I

21:51

don't know. Any thoughts? I

21:53

agree with you. It's a press release. It's

21:55

about autonomous cars. What's

21:58

the innovation here? I don't know. Waymo

22:00

in San Francisco yet. Is he

22:02

claiming it's going to be a better car? Right

22:04

now this is about regulatory approval. I'm not

22:06

getting in a robo taxi for them. I'm already

22:09

nervous enough in one that has much more sensors.

22:11

He needs to create a series of distractions

22:14

because over the last decade, people have noticed

22:17

that the EV umbrella

22:20

creates disproportionate unearned market

22:22

capitalization. And so

22:24

the biggest manufacturers in

22:27

the world, specifically automobile companies, have said, we're

22:29

going to go hard into EVs. And there was a lag. And

22:32

similar to Netflix through the aughts, he had in the

22:35

teens, he had basically open field because to

22:37

his credit, he started early. But

22:39

now you have BYD saying they can come up with a

22:42

decent EV for $10,000. In

22:44

addition, you have seen an

22:47

absolute crash in

22:49

the value, the residual value of used Tesla's. And

22:51

so people are scared to buy a new one.

22:54

They massively missed here. Essentially,

22:57

they reported 387,000 in global deliveries and they estimated 449,000.

23:04

That's a big hit. So this

23:06

company, it's not an AI company. It's not

23:08

an energy. All the jazz hands

23:10

from all the bullshit analysts trying to pump this

23:12

stock up, trying to pretend it's something it's not,

23:14

it's an automobile company. It'll start

23:16

trading like an automobile company, which means its

23:19

shares still have a long way to go down.

23:21

Well, it was a high. It was in November 2021.

23:24

That's his high point before he bought Twitter, I

23:26

guess, a 407. Now it's

23:28

in the hundreds, 164. And

23:32

he keeps doing tiny little jazz hands. It keeps going

23:34

up and down, but it's got, just

23:37

make better products, Elon. That's it. Like really,

23:39

seriously. People have caught up. Just stop. Stop

23:42

with the press releases and make things that

23:44

people want to buy. And by the way,

23:46

your car isn't that interesting anymore, considering how

23:48

many great cars there are that we talked

23:50

about. You don't have to buy a bolt

23:52

like I do, but you certainly

23:54

have choice. You just lost all credibility. I know,

23:57

but still. I

23:59

have a lot of friends who are buying them and they're all like

24:01

I was taking a look at some of the I

24:03

was looking at the Bronco for and I'm looking

24:05

at the Rivian the newer. Don't say a Les Vanjoe.

24:08

Wait am I thinking about a Les? I'm sorry, Bronco. No

24:11

but I was looking at the Rivian the smaller

24:13

one and I have to say there's no way

24:15

I'm gonna buy a Tesla because he's such a

24:17

jerk but they're not mostly because there's more choice.

24:19

Yeah. I have lots of choices. That's the thing.

24:22

Anyway who cares? Wave your hands all you

24:24

want. Just stop. Just build

24:26

better cars. That's what I would say. I would argue I

24:29

actually and I hate to I think Tesla's

24:31

a great car. I just think other I

24:33

just think the gap the marginal difference has

24:35

been closed. People don't like the inside. I don't

24:37

like the I never like it in a Tesla. I got

24:40

in a lot of Tesla's I'll tell you in Buenos

24:42

Aires where I was taking a car. Uber. Uber works

24:44

really well there. A lot of people on your way

24:46

to Tango and beef. Tango and

24:48

beef. Just more beef than Tango. Argentina is literally

24:50

a case study and how bad

24:52

governance can fuck up an incredible nation. We

24:54

had a lot of beef. Anyway it was

24:56

delicious. Let's get to our

24:58

first big story. Disney

25:03

is looking ahead to its future after

25:05

successfully sending off activist investor Nelson Peltz

25:08

an all-around jerk off guy. I know you

25:10

like him but he says he said hold

25:12

on hold on hold on if I ever

25:14

said I like you and Nelson Peltz have

25:16

I ever met him? Yeah kind of. No

25:18

I like governance. Good investment. In any case

25:21

he said a lot of stupid things recently.

25:23

For the second time in two years Disney

25:25

announced last week that shareholders had voted to

25:27

elect its entire slate of board nominees by

25:29

a substantial margin following an expensive proxy battle

25:31

with a waste of money. Peltz's company try

25:33

and partner said it was disappointed with the

25:35

outcome but proud of the impact we had

25:37

in refocusing this company on value creation and

25:39

good governance. Fine. You get that and they

25:41

made some money too. I think a couple

25:44

hundred million dollars. You've been talking about this

25:46

proxy out for months. Does he come back

25:48

for another fight? As I said he made 300 million

25:50

dollars or 40% return so good for him. So he

25:52

wins when he loses. This is a

25:54

win for Bob Iger but I'm not sure he comes

25:57

out on skates and of course

25:59

there's a succession place. He said, is

26:02

the board's number one priority and that's being treated

26:04

with a sense of urgency. They have brought some people

26:06

on the board who are good at that, but

26:08

his contract ends in 2026. So

26:12

what should happen here? It

26:15

should be, what should I prioritize? He could have

26:17

another attack by an activist. At some point, he

26:19

announced an expansion of its Magic Kingdom Park in

26:21

Florida last week, part of a 10-year, $68 billion

26:24

investment in park screws and experience. He settled

26:26

with Ron DeSantis. He

26:29

seems to have cleaned up some of the messes. So

26:31

thoughts? Well, so again, around

26:33

predictions. In November of 23, one of

26:35

my three stock picks was Disney. It's

26:37

just undervalued. And I like

26:39

Bob. He's a good manager on Prof G. On

26:42

the Prof G pod two weeks ago, I predicted that

26:45

Nelson would not get a board seat and it was

26:47

obvious. And the reason why is that

26:49

the CEO and his proxy solicitor have

26:52

more insight into what shareholders are thinking.

26:55

Very rarely does a CEO let

26:58

a shareholder vote go to a vote if they're not going

27:00

to win. So just some personal

27:02

experience here as a chance for me to

27:04

flex and talk about me, which I know

27:06

you're missing. Okay. I can't wait. So

27:09

when I raised $600 million, bought

27:11

17% of the New York Times and

27:14

said we're filing a 13D and we want four

27:16

board seats. Companies under managed

27:18

needs to dovest things, including the 17% of

27:21

the Boston Red Sox, which made no fucking

27:23

sense. So anyways, Janet Robinson, the CEO of

27:25

the time, they

27:27

showed up to negotiate and

27:30

they offered us one board seat.

27:32

And I took my capital partner, we

27:34

kept running back and forth in the meeting. And I said, after

27:37

all four, they're dead. They wouldn't be negotiating unless they

27:39

knew they were fucked because they know their shareholders better

27:41

than we do. And the only

27:43

reason they're here is because they know they're going to lose at

27:45

the annual meeting. And so they

27:48

offered, you'll love this, Garrett. They offered two

27:50

board seats as long as I was not

27:52

one of them. Of course.

27:55

They did not want me on the board. And

27:58

my capital partner said, we'll do two, but... Scott

28:00

has to be one of them. But

28:02

the moment if Bob, it

28:05

doesn't go to the annual meeting unless

28:07

the incumbents know they're going to win.

28:09

That's so interesting. And the moment it

28:11

was clear there wasn't going to be

28:13

a settlement, it was clear

28:16

that he wasn't going to get the seat. And

28:18

it was an overwhelming victory for the incumbents.

28:21

And it's very straightforward what happens here. If

28:24

the stock goes up, he's fine. It's

28:26

gone up. It's going up. It's about 20% or

28:28

30% year to date. So

28:30

far. But it's still – if

28:33

the stock goes down, if the stock

28:35

goes down, Bob is going to announce a succession

28:37

plan sooner rather than later.

28:40

And he's going to go give Nelson if Nelson

28:42

still wants a seat. If the stock goes up,

28:44

Nelson wins. Bob's fine, rides off into the sunset.

28:46

It's all about what the stock does the next

28:48

nine months. Right, nine months. So

28:51

your thoughts, where is it going to go?

28:53

I think Disney is going to be

28:55

one of the consolidate ores as opposed

28:58

to the consolidate ease in the streaming

29:00

market, which sets the multiple. That's the

29:02

growth business, that's the future. In

29:04

addition, they're sitting on top of this amazing business

29:07

that doesn't get the credit it deserves called the

29:09

park. They really are singular.

29:11

True, you have Universal for the teens. You pointed

29:13

that out to me. I like that analogy. And

29:15

here's the thing. Netflix and Google can't

29:17

build these parks, so they're not interested in it. These

29:19

are decades long investments.

29:23

Unbelievable experience. You have to be

29:25

part of the... If you have kids with

29:27

Milana and live

29:29

action Milana, Frozen Four, Five, whatever

29:31

the hell they're making. And

29:33

there's a great flywheel. You can bet there's going to be all sorts of

29:35

Frozen rides, right? So this

29:37

is... The IP here is

29:39

unprecedented. They're going

29:42

to have a nice niche in family around

29:44

streaming. They have the cash cow with

29:46

the parks. And it's trading at a

29:48

10 year low. They've had some misses. I mean Wish

29:50

didn't do very well. A

29:53

couple... You know, they still got the

29:55

Frozen juggernaut. They've got Milana. They've got a lot of

29:57

stuff. But some of the stuff doesn't do well. I

30:00

know they've had a series of movies that haven't done that

30:02

well, but he's got to get back to entertaining. The

30:04

thing that irritated me about Peltz was he didn't like

30:06

Black Panther. He said it was too woke. What an

30:08

amazing movie. It was an enormous hit. What an idiot.

30:11

That's a distraction. That's a frigging idiot. I know, but

30:13

he's an idiot. Just when he comes out of his mouth, I

30:15

want to talk it out. Well, I don't know

30:17

if I told you this, but my prostateitis has

30:19

been flaring up and it's clearly DEI. I

30:22

mean, it's clearly like, it's clearly

30:24

DEI. What did someone blame DEI

30:26

on? It was something funny. Something

30:29

happened in there. Oh, the earthquake in New York. They're like,

30:31

they're looking at DEI. Oh, clearly DEI. No, that was

30:33

clearly DEI. I love that. Anyway,

30:37

but what is his biggest challenge? I'd

30:39

like to know what you think his biggest challenge is.

30:41

Look, Bob's- Succession. Yeah. Okay.

30:45

So a lot of these guys get ... Okay. So

30:49

you don't make ... They call him the leader. And

30:51

here's the thing. He's not

30:53

the leader. You can't

30:56

run a company of this

30:58

size and complexity when one

31:00

person is in charge with leading it. His

31:02

job, his job is to

31:04

create an environment where there's great

31:07

leadership across all the divisions and an

31:09

atmosphere of success and innovation. So

31:12

he's about creating an environment. And it's not easy

31:14

to create an environment when, quite frankly, as nice

31:16

as he is, you're seen as someone who keeps

31:18

executing the people who get near the iron throne.

31:21

Really good CEOs in board meetings.

31:23

I love the succession strategy we do

31:25

once a year with the CEO. And

31:29

you can always tell who's a good CEO,

31:31

or one of the ways is they come

31:34

in and they're really thoughtful about giving the

31:36

bench playtime in the board meeting. And then

31:38

you have other CEOs who want

31:40

to make it clear that there's me and

31:42

everybody else. And without me, this thing doesn't work.

31:45

That's when you know you got to start thinking

31:47

about finding another CEO. And unfortunately,

31:49

some of the most famous CEOs in the

31:51

world, they don't even realize it, have a

31:53

habit of executing anyone who gets near the

31:56

iron throne. He has not done a great

31:58

job instilling confidence in in

32:00

fostering and cultivating leadership.

32:02

So that's on a cultural level, that's number

32:05

one. But most importantly, he's going to make

32:07

the right moves about the parks. They know

32:09

how to run that business in their sleep,

32:11

I think. And the key here will be

32:14

moving the streaming platform, Disney Plus and Hulu

32:16

to profitability while maintaining growth. Which he talks

32:18

about, which he's been talking about rather confidently,

32:20

I've noticed in his utterances.

32:24

He's been talking about making it quite profitable.

32:27

Doing a lot of things they wouldn't have done before.

32:30

The reason why it'll be profitable is that for

32:32

the first time in the history of this company,

32:34

in two years they haven't raised

32:36

their content budget and that is Netflix. While

32:38

they have also raised prices, so Netflix has

32:40

given cloud cover for a rationalization in the

32:42

sector such that Disney Plus and

32:44

HBO can raise their fees without raising their

32:47

content budgets. This whole market is rationalizing, which

32:49

is good for Disney. Although

32:51

they've got to sort of get a little

32:53

bit heftier. They have all the kids stuff,

32:55

but Netflix is just killing it with their

32:58

shows. I have to say all the Netflix

33:00

shows right now. It's brute force. They just

33:02

have so much. Well, they're also kind of good.

33:04

There's a real mix. I'm going to watch this.

33:06

I was noticing what I was watching when

33:09

I downloaded and there's

33:11

another one called Scoop. It's about Prince Andrew.

33:13

It's like it hits the gentleman was kind

33:15

of good. Although I didn't

33:17

keep watching it. Interesting. They have

33:19

one day which is doing great.

33:22

They've got all kinds of things that are doing really

33:24

well. I'm just saying

33:27

I watch all Disney because my kids do, but

33:29

I don't find a lot there that I want

33:31

to watch myself and I would. But

33:34

Netflix really is. They have something for

33:36

me, Kara Swisher, and Netflix

33:38

always does. Alright, Scott,

33:40

let's go on a quick break.

33:42

When we come back, Congress makes

33:44

a big move toward regulating online

33:47

privacy. We'll speak with friend of

33:49

Pivot, Ruth Ben-Giat, about Donald Trump

33:51

and dictators say go together. The

33:58

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35:00

Support for Pivot comes from Business Wars

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Morgan Stanley. Scott,

36:37

we're back. Congress appears to be closer than

36:40

ever to passing national online privacy protections.

36:42

House and Senate subcommittee leaders from both

36:44

sides of the aisle unveiled a proposal

36:46

on Sunday, meaning they're cooperating for legislation

36:48

that gives consumers the rights to control

36:50

how tech companies use their personal data.

36:52

The American Privacy Rights Act would limit

36:54

the types of data companies can gather,

36:56

allowing users to opt out of targeted

36:58

ads and permit people to sue bad

37:00

actors for violating their privacy. This would

37:02

be a big thing. One

37:04

thing the bill doesn't do, prohibit companies from targeting

37:06

minors with ads. I wish that did that. A

37:09

lot of states have their own online privacy

37:11

laws. We'll see what happens to national standards.

37:14

Of course, the tech companies will push back. It's

37:16

unclear whether it's going to get passed because they've got

37:19

a limited amount of time. What do you think? What

37:21

do you think? It's with Maria Cantwell as

37:23

one of the pushers of it on the Senate

37:25

side. I mean, it feels better. I think you

37:27

know more about this, although I want to come

37:29

back. I do have a story about Senator Cantwell.

37:31

Oh, okay. Well, this is ... Look, here's

37:33

the problem with a lot of the stuff they're

37:35

doing is they met ... I've seen

37:37

a lot of criticisms of this. I've seen a

37:40

lot of positives. You can't let the perfect be

37:42

the enemy of the good, right? That we have

37:44

to put a stake in the sand to add

37:46

privacy laws. It does a lot of things. It

37:48

doesn't do. I would definitely add

37:50

prohibiting companies from targeting minors with ads. We

37:52

do it on television in certain ways. They

37:55

can see ads, but remember, they're cartoons with

37:57

cigarette companies. They should be much more ...

37:59

more attuned to what's happening,

38:02

especially because there's such

38:04

a movement going on right now about

38:06

that. So I think it's a good time to do that.

38:10

The companies will scream about innovation

38:12

and hindering them, but

38:14

this is sort of the baseline, it seems to

38:16

me, this privacy bill, it's the baseline of

38:19

anything else. And they should

38:21

pass it as an act of symbolism to

38:24

do so. And I don't think it damages

38:26

anything. Again, that's always

38:28

the complaint of tech companies. I

38:30

don't think tech companies should resist

38:33

this happening, and probably it's

38:35

sprawling. There's a lot through. There's

38:37

a lot here on it. And

38:41

so we'll see what people think and the reaction

38:43

it has. But it's big. It's a

38:46

big bill. But opting out of data

38:48

practices and targeted advertising and also being

38:51

able to sue them seems

38:53

to me table stakes. What do

38:55

you think? More importantly, back to

38:57

me, when I first moved

38:59

to New York, I literally left

39:02

tech, sold my house,

39:04

got divorced, moved to New York without

39:07

a single friend. I even said

39:09

to my ex, who I'm still close with, I said,

39:11

you can have all our friends. I just want to

39:13

change my life. And

39:15

I moved to New York, and I

39:17

fell into this group of really interesting people.

39:20

And one of my friends, a woman named Anne

39:22

Masset, and the other guy, Boy

39:24

Can Curry, all these super smart, interesting people. And

39:30

because I was, I think, 34, 36

39:32

at the time, and single,

39:34

but had been married, which meant I could

39:36

actually commit to something, I was the ultimate

39:38

setup. Everyone was trying to set me up.

39:41

And I had dinner with a woman. I

39:44

had dinner with a woman I think you know or

39:46

knew, Rob Glazer's

39:49

wife, ex-wife, this

39:51

like plucky young, really

39:53

nice attractive like spark plug. And

39:56

she said, I have the perfect woman for you. She's

39:58

smart. looking, da da da.

40:01

And I said, great. And she said, she's

40:03

going to be in town. Are you comfortable

40:05

dating high profile women? I'm like, well, why does that

40:07

mean? She goes, well, her name is, she's

40:10

running for Senate and her name's

40:12

Maria Cantwell. And first

40:15

off, I think it never happened. She was an

40:17

executive in a tech executive. Yeah, his

40:19

company Real Networks. And I asked some questions about

40:21

her and it ends up. And

40:23

I said, and I said, there was one

40:25

feature, of course, me being a thoughtful person, she said,

40:27

I said, I'm not interested. And she said, why not?

40:30

And I said, I didn't get divorced to date women

40:32

who are older than me. Oh,

40:34

no. I want younger. My children are like

40:36

six months. She's like six years older than

40:38

me. But I said, I want to date

40:40

much younger women who have terrible relationships with

40:43

their father. Those are my two criteria. Anyway,

40:45

I could have

40:50

been a senator's husband, but I told her I also couldn't

40:52

date her because I didn't want that

40:54

relationship to come in between my relationship

40:56

with or my relationships with Patty

40:59

Stonecipher and Emily Rata Kowski. I thought they just

41:01

would have been too hurt. It

41:03

just would have put a strain on those budding

41:05

relationships. These fake relationships are

41:07

so creepy, but funny on the end.

41:10

In any case, this would be a- I

41:13

could have been a senator's husband. I could

41:15

have been the biggest problem her staff had to

41:17

deal with. Oh, God, you would have been. Right?

41:20

I would have been like, who is the secretary of Homeland,

41:22

the woman from New Jersey who was a husband with a

41:24

wife. I could have been

41:26

Billy Carter. Or Manutian's wife.

41:29

Remember, she was posing with dollar bills

41:31

and stuff like that. She was crazy. He was

41:33

crazy. That matches. I would have really stood. I

41:35

would have been the

41:38

bad peanut butter to her chocolate. She

41:41

was sane and attractive and nice. The

41:43

staff would have been- Okay,

41:45

we're moving away from your dating life.

41:47

Here's why it's important. It would

41:49

make privacy a consumer right and

41:51

put them in control of their data.

41:54

That is really at the heart of it. We

41:58

have not had a comprehensive national law. on this

42:00

and we have to. It

42:02

is a signal that we care

42:04

about this. It also preserves a lot of the

42:06

stuff that's been happening in states, especially California, which

42:08

has been out front

42:12

of this. There's such a patchwork

42:14

of state laws. That's one of

42:16

the issues. And to

42:18

be able to sue these companies for violations

42:20

is really important. It stays away from the

42:22

free speech part and it

42:24

rains and you can sue them for this. This

42:27

is the kind of stuff I've been talking about.

42:29

Go to their pocketbook. If Facebook is going to

42:31

dominate digital advertising, you should have the same rights

42:33

that you have to sue people. And so that's

42:35

one of the things. And

42:37

this comprehensive privacy bill says

42:40

we care about this issue. Now again, the people

42:43

who don't like it and think it's too thin,

42:45

people who are against it saying, how

42:47

dare you? This is

42:49

a baked industry right now, digital

42:51

advertising. It deserves a

42:53

piece of legislation. We'll see where

42:55

it goes. I don't know. We'll see.

42:58

I don't know. They're really busy with other

43:00

important issues. I'm going to get a call from Maria

43:02

Cantwell now and say, I'm going to have a

43:05

restraining order. Do you think she's

43:07

still thinking about me? No, I'm going to see her do it.

43:09

What could have happened? What could have

43:11

happened? I used to talk to her all the time

43:13

when she was real. It was interesting. I

43:15

love her. I think she's so good on

43:17

the issues. She tried to insert $15 minimum

43:19

wage into the Recovery Act. And of course,

43:21

we can give seniors a $90 billion increase

43:23

in social security. She probably doesn't get her

43:26

due of the amount of stuff she does.

43:28

She's very serious. She's one of our few

43:30

elected representatives who just shows up and does

43:32

the fucking work. Whereas we have guys- Yeah,

43:34

she's a business person too. My

43:36

favorite reason, posing for the TikTok

43:38

cameras and trying to ... And

43:40

the mad dash for an appointment

43:42

to the Trump cabinet that will

43:44

never happen is Representative Jim Jordan

43:46

has sent letters to all the

43:49

biggest advertisers demanding that they answer why

43:51

they aren't advertising on true social. Yeah.

43:53

I mean, that's what our representatives are

43:56

doing. Why are you advertising on platforms

43:58

where there's no people? It's

44:00

at my political values Anyways,

44:02

a shout out to Senator Cantwell. I think

44:05

she served the country really well. She is

44:07

she is she's a serious-minded senator And

44:09

she said she was a really lovely person to

44:11

talk to back in the day in the early internet days

44:13

I really enjoyed her. Anyway, we

44:15

got to get to our friend of pivot

44:23

Ruth Ben Giet is a professor of

44:25

history at NYU and author of strong

44:27

men Mussolini to the present She also

44:29

writes the sub stack lucid which focuses

44:32

on abuses of power and threats democracy

44:34

Ruth. Welcome. Thank you I'm

44:36

so glad to be here. So we want to

44:38

talk dictators I want to start with

44:40

something you posted on X last week after Donald

44:43

Trump shared violent imagery of Joe Biden on true

44:45

social You wrote wake up people. This is an

44:47

emergency a lot of people have concerns about that

44:49

imagery But what was it specifically that made you

44:51

sound the alarm here? You've been doing it for

44:53

a while So I'm not so sure that's the

44:56

newest thing in the world for you But but

44:58

talk about why why that bothered you in particular

45:00

of the many things that could bother you. I'm at

45:02

Donald Trump Yeah, so

45:05

it's about you know, because because I

45:07

feel like Donald Trump has

45:10

been Waging and

45:12

his GOP enablers have

45:14

been waging a whole campaign

45:16

to Delegitimize all of

45:19

our democratic institutions and

45:21

in particular You know

45:23

attacking Joe Biden. This was an image

45:25

which showed Joe Biden it was

45:28

a you know a sticker on the back of a

45:30

pickup As though he

45:32

were a hostage Kidnapped

45:34

and if you study coups a

45:36

third of my book strongman is

45:38

about coups and authoritarian takeovers What

45:41

is this showing? It's showing an outcome of

45:43

a political situation where? Biden

45:45

is has met a bad end where

45:48

he's somehow been overthrown and ended up

45:50

tied up and This

45:52

is being you know,

45:54

this is being depicted as something positive

45:57

and so it's continuing the crew and

45:59

it's just It's extremely

46:01

dangerous for obvious

46:03

reasons and I feel

46:05

like this is normalizing this,

46:08

is allowing people. Which is the point, right?

46:11

I mean, you called it, you said Trump's

46:13

repeated elevation of dictators as

46:15

models of leadership should be understood as part of

46:17

a reeducation strategy. Now, one thing he does is

46:19

this is not new. He did that with CNN,

46:22

if you remember him punching CNN. This was years

46:24

ago. He did

46:26

one that I wrote a column about when

46:28

he was, not just stand

46:30

by and stand whatever the heck he

46:32

said. He says it a lot. It's

46:35

not a new fresh thing, but you're

46:37

calling it a reeducation strategy that's been

46:39

ongoing, right? That it hasn't stopped

46:41

the coup and he continues to do that. Explain

46:43

why, because he says he's joking.

46:45

He says he's kidding. This

46:48

is just him. This is his brand of

46:50

humor such that it's not funny,

46:52

but still. Talk about the

46:54

reeducation part of it. Yeah,

46:57

it's interesting. What he's been doing, and

47:00

this is since the fascists, Mussolini

47:02

and Hitler, you've got to reeducate people

47:04

to see violence in a

47:06

positive way and even make it into

47:09

something patriotic and

47:12

even morally righteous. Trump

47:14

has been using his rallies since

47:16

2015 and this was part

47:18

of my report from the January 6th committee.

47:21

He's been just over and over saying like,

47:23

oh, in the good old days, we used

47:25

to be able to punch protesters. So there's

47:28

that vector. And then

47:30

he's been also elevating dictators.

47:33

It doesn't matter, North

47:35

Korea, China, whatever they

47:37

are, communist, fascist as

47:39

positive models of leadership.

47:42

Orban, he recently met with

47:44

Victor Orban from Hungary. Go

47:46

ahead. Yeah. And so

47:49

Orban, what does he say? I take seriously what

47:51

he says. And he says that, you know, Orban's

47:53

so great, he's so strong because he says this

47:55

is how it's going to be and

47:57

everybody just accepts it. telling

48:00

us what he's telling Americans,

48:02

his followers, that this is a positive

48:04

model. So if you take the violence

48:07

as a way of

48:09

moving history forward, which was

48:12

January 6th, and you take

48:14

the positive praise for these

48:16

murderous dictators, you get a

48:19

reeducation strategy because he saturated

48:21

the media environment

48:23

for now many years over and over and over

48:26

again. It's nice to meet you, Professor.

48:28

I don't think we've met before. So

48:32

we spent a lot of time talking about what a

48:34

danger Trump is and how wrong

48:36

and really anti-American

48:38

a lot of his activities, much less his

48:41

rhetoric are. But

48:43

he was elected by the

48:46

US, and he continues to pull really

48:48

well despite all of these things that

48:50

are horrific to everyone on this podcast.

48:55

What is it about the atmospherics in the US

48:58

that has led the populace to support

49:01

this individual who we all agree

49:04

does not acquit himself as we would want

49:06

someone who wants to be the president? What's

49:08

happened in America? What's changed here? That's

49:10

a great question. And there

49:13

are patterns to these things. And

49:15

the research from my book, when

49:18

there's been a perception that there's

49:20

been too much social progress and

49:24

certain people are losing out. It

49:26

could be conservative elites who

49:28

are worried about losing their privileges. It

49:31

could be people thinking there's too much

49:33

gender emancipation, too much racial

49:36

emancipation. You get a kind

49:38

of counter-revolution. That's a big

49:41

word. Or you get a backlash. And

49:44

that's when somebody like Donald Trump is

49:47

appealing. But

49:49

Donald Trump also models himself for

49:52

that environment. And the thing about

49:54

these strongmen is that they're

49:56

highly sensitive. They read the marketplace.

50:00

They understand what is wanted

50:03

and they model themselves. It will be

50:05

whatever they need to be to get

50:07

to power because they have no morals.

50:10

They're just about getting control. So

50:14

Donald Trump comes up and he

50:16

was the perfect person as the

50:19

anti-Obama and he was the male

50:22

brute so he addressed the

50:24

people who felt that women had

50:27

too much power, same-sex marriages were

50:29

taking over, all of the racial stuff

50:31

and so that's what he did and he

50:34

also told these people that he loved them

50:36

that they would have forgotten and so there's

50:38

a sense that he's not just going to

50:41

represent them, he's going to protect them and

50:43

take care of them. He's

50:46

daddy. He's big daddy and he's remained big

50:48

daddy and once they bond to him and

50:50

they feel protected but they're

50:52

also protective of him because he's also the

50:55

victim and Lissolini was the victim,

50:57

Erdogan's the victim, they all do this

51:00

and it's highly effective, this manipulation of

51:02

emotions. Scott, you write about masculinity

51:04

and emotions and Trump is

51:06

the latest example of somebody

51:09

who is extremely skilled at

51:11

using this. First off, Professor,

51:13

I think that's such

51:16

an important point because

51:18

I've been thinking a lot about Roe recently

51:20

and I don't think people zero in on some

51:22

of the things you're talking about to really understand

51:24

and I would just want to double click

51:26

on it. My sense is you talk about them wanting to return

51:28

to an era where

51:31

they were more comfortable and I think it's more specific

51:33

than that. Just as young

51:35

men have fallen further faster than any group

51:37

in America, the ascent globally

51:39

of women over the last 30

51:41

years is unprecedented. They've doubled their

51:43

elected positions in parliaments, there

51:46

are now more women globally enrolled in

51:48

tertiary education than men and

51:50

I think the extreme of any religion is

51:52

really uncomfortable and wants these up-to-do women to

51:54

sit down. I think that's what Roe is.

51:58

I don't think it's about birth. It's about Taking

52:00

power back isn't a specifically.

52:03

About telling. Very

52:05

conservative sexual of of of religious extremists

52:07

who have disproportionate power and unfortunately young

52:10

men who still shunned by women and

52:12

I'm gonna take power backs on women.

52:15

Are totally and who better than a

52:17

repeated email abuser. Ah, somebody who boasts

52:19

about you know as putting women in

52:22

a place. And and this was tired

52:24

of this marketing strategy from the very

52:26

beginning. And that's why when they're on

52:28

holiday the Access Hollywood stuff came out.

52:31

I knew that it will actually help

52:33

him because he had this suit. These

52:35

the people I steady it's finity was

52:37

horrible to write the book had be

52:40

in their heads you know, misleadingly the

52:42

serial rapists and many others cut off

52:44

the as. Well. So this

52:46

is part of their their glamour.

52:49

And until we ah yes we

52:51

know ourselves from this kind of

52:53

toxic brew he no idea that

52:55

this and brute force this this

52:58

this ideal of masculinity as glamorous

53:00

and desirable were going to be

53:02

susceptible to these Donald Tramp. So

53:05

can you have the similarities to pick

53:07

up on that? Between Trump and some

53:10

these classic dictators, I did not know

53:12

that about Muslims leaning forward your books

53:14

and also how they how they seats

53:16

themselves because I just interviewed him a

53:18

ride back about his book take over

53:20

which is a six month. You

53:22

know that was touch and go for Hitler

53:24

their whether who's gonna make it and he

53:27

said he adapted and se he moved he

53:29

removed himself from crazy for enough time to

53:31

to condense them all the different. Constituencies

53:34

that he needed to convince on

53:36

the left and the rights to

53:38

finally appoint him chancellor which given

53:40

the opportunity to become. More.

53:43

Sir. Tuck little bit the similarities

53:45

when you're talking about these various

53:47

dictators and and the differences are

53:49

their differences Also yeah the outcomes

53:51

are different so ill when I

53:54

get whatever happens is not gonna

53:56

be a hit. Larry in one

53:58

party state to her. or

54:00

a North Korean one-party state. But

54:03

the similarities are that they, these

54:06

people are highly sophisticated at

54:08

communication. And whatever the era

54:10

they're in, they use the

54:12

latest tools of communication to

54:15

forge a direct and unmediated

54:17

bond with their followers. So

54:19

Mussolini, you know, he's just articulating

54:21

and he started in the age of

54:23

silent cinema, used newsreels. Now Hitler,

54:26

of course, he had the radio

54:29

and he ranted. And the Nazis invested

54:31

in like state of the art audio

54:34

technology so that when

54:36

he had rallies, his voice would reverberate

54:38

in ways that made him feel, seem

54:41

more godly because that's part of the

54:43

personality cult. So they all do personality

54:45

cults, which it's so interesting.

54:48

The rules have not changed for a hundred

54:50

years. You have to be a man of

54:52

the people. So you're relatable and certainly Trump

54:54

is. But you have to be the man

54:56

above all other men, the man who gets

54:58

away with it. And

55:01

that's the rogue glamour. So

55:03

they all use this. And

55:05

so Modi used holograms when

55:08

he ran initially for office. So he could

55:10

be everywhere and nowhere like a god. Berlusconi,

55:13

who owned TV networks, used satellite

55:16

TV to be everywhere. And

55:18

Trump used Twitter. So that's

55:20

one thing they do. They have these

55:23

bonds with that people feel they're speaking

55:25

directly and only to them, which is

55:27

which hasn't changed for 100 years. You're

55:30

advising the White House. How would you

55:32

match this? Because Biden is certainly not

55:35

that. Yeah, I think in general, we

55:39

can learn from

55:42

autocrats to make more

55:44

use of emotion in politics. There's one

55:46

of the things that autocrats do really well

55:49

is create these tribes and these communities and

55:52

they make people feel cared for. Now, it's

55:54

bogus. Of course, they're just really trying to

55:56

manipulate them. Trump doesn't care. You

55:58

know, at the beginning of the pandemic. I didn't interview

56:01

it and I told, I said that Trump doesn't

56:03

care if you live or die and people got

56:05

upset, but that's just how it is. But

56:07

they seem to care about people. So

56:11

Democrats in general around the world

56:13

can make more use of emotion,

56:15

of joy, of hope,

56:18

of love. And Biden

56:20

does this in his own way, but it'd

56:24

be ideal if it's somebody who is

56:26

a more charismatic, energetic

56:29

vehicle for that kind of emotion.

56:31

Is there someone like that? Is

56:33

there someone like that? I'm

56:37

not sure. I mean, I'm a

56:39

big fan of Pete Buttigieg as

56:41

a communicator and he's got a

56:44

restrained personality, but he's able to

56:46

talk. He goes on Fox and

56:48

he's liked on Fox. He's a

56:51

very, very, he's a great asset

56:53

as a communicator. And

56:56

he has everything, I think, as a

56:58

communicator and he could develop in this

57:01

direction if given

57:03

the space. So talk, what worries

57:05

you the most about a Trump second

57:07

term? I, what

57:10

worries me the most about Trump second term is

57:12

that he has been very

57:14

clear about his intent

57:16

to have an American version

57:19

of fascism. Now

57:21

that's, again, it's not going to be a

57:23

one part state, but he wants to turn

57:25

the US, you know, arm the

57:27

military if he could, but certainly

57:30

law enforcement

57:32

to repress large numbers of

57:34

Americans to deport, you know,

57:37

millions. And

57:39

he would stop at nothing to

57:41

try and gain total control of

57:44

the United States. And that's what authoritarianism

57:46

is. And it's very essence,

57:48

it's the, it's the executive

57:50

trying to, you know,

57:53

overwhelm and the other branches of

57:55

government so that they can be

57:57

safe and be never

57:59

pressed. executed again. Q. Can

58:02

he actually do it? We're such a

58:04

big and diverse country with so many,

58:06

like you can't imagine California going along,

58:08

there's elements in every state like this,

58:10

but how do you manage

58:12

to do that? I mean, Germany was

58:14

a very particular smaller country, so was

58:17

Italy, so was Turkey in a way,

58:19

you know, although it's much more diverse, Turkey's

58:21

more diverse, with Erdogan.

58:24

How do you, and certainly Modi has

58:27

done that, but has limits, has had limits in

58:29

terms of what he can do. So how do

58:31

you look at that? Is

58:33

that a possibility? I mean, we've all seen

58:36

the science fiction about it, we've all seen

58:38

those apocalyptic movies where that happens. A.

58:40

Yeah. I mean, Hitler, you know,

58:43

Mussolini is actually a better example,

58:46

or somebody like an Orban, because,

58:49

versus Hitler, because today things often

58:51

happen gradually. But Trump

58:56

ends Project 2025, it's about having

58:58

an accelerated transformation of government,

59:01

using executive orders, perhaps the

59:03

Insurrection Act. And we

59:06

know there are many things that he can do.

59:08

The main thing that definitely would happen, because it

59:10

happened during the first Trump administration is that

59:14

Trump is not interested in governance, he's

59:16

interested in using public office

59:18

for private benefit. And in his

59:21

first administration, he spent one out

59:24

of every three days, not

59:26

governing at the White House, but visiting Trump

59:28

branded properties. And

59:30

so this kind of enrichment for

59:34

you and your family in cronies,

59:36

that definitely would go on. He's

59:38

already said, you know, he's boasting

59:40

that he accepted money

59:42

during his first presidency from the Chinese

59:44

for quote, services. And I'm still trying

59:46

to get somebody to ask him what

59:49

those services were. So the

59:51

White House would be for sale, our

59:53

intelligence would be for sale, perhaps it

59:55

already has been, you know, keeping documents

59:57

in his bathroom, all of this.

1:00:00

Lack of accountability and erasure

1:00:03

of public versus private, that's

1:00:05

the strongman thing. They

1:00:07

don't accept any erasure and any divide

1:00:09

between public and private. It's all theirs,

1:00:12

and it's all theirs to sell and

1:00:14

profit from. Professor,

1:00:16

my sense is the media has

1:00:19

a difficult time trying to figure out

1:00:21

the approach to covering Trump. Do

1:00:25

you have any thoughts around where the media has

1:00:29

succeeded or not succeeded, and the

1:00:32

role the media plays in trying

1:00:35

to figure out how to cover this guy? It's

1:00:38

a little like Frederick Burchall in The

1:00:40

New York Times reporter who sort of

1:00:42

normalized Hitler for a long time. Oh

1:00:45

yeah, and Mussolini actually had

1:00:47

a column, a syndicated

1:00:50

column because the anti-communist

1:00:53

Baron Hurst was his

1:00:55

backer that reached 1,000

1:00:57

newspapers for eight years in

1:00:59

the United States. So talk

1:01:01

about normalizing. I think we know

1:01:04

that the press has been, it was

1:01:07

working with an outdated playbook, a

1:01:10

playbook that worked in

1:01:12

terms of two, if you had

1:01:15

two candidates and two parties that

1:01:17

still bought into democracy.

1:01:19

The problem is they've been

1:01:21

slow to understand how to

1:01:23

cover our situation where we're

1:01:26

a bipartisan republic, but one of our

1:01:28

parties no longer is in democracy.

1:01:30

I see the GOP as an autocratic

1:01:32

party, and if it were a sovereign

1:01:35

entity, its foreign policy

1:01:38

would be pro-autocratic, pro-Putin, pro-Orban.

1:01:41

That's a reality, and they've struggled, so

1:01:44

that's where they still do the

1:01:46

both sidesism. But

1:01:48

it's a little more subtle because, for example,

1:01:50

Meet the Press, which

1:01:52

has a bipartisan viewership,

1:01:58

Kristen Welker has done very well. well

1:02:00

actually bringing Republican guests on

1:02:02

and probing them. And

1:02:05

the audience there are Republicans who

1:02:07

don't want to see perhaps a

1:02:09

Republican aggressively bashed,

1:02:12

but will listen to a

1:02:14

careful probing of their hypocrisies,

1:02:16

of their inconsistencies. So

1:02:22

you can think that this

1:02:25

more gentle approach is perhaps

1:02:27

not appropriate for our emergency,

1:02:30

but it depends what your aim is. So

1:02:32

what should they be doing? I

1:02:34

think that the headline writers are

1:02:36

there. There's a lot

1:02:39

of headlines that are unhelpful, for example, even

1:02:41

in the Washington Post and certainly in the New York Times.

1:02:44

Also the placement of important stories

1:02:46

about Trump's corruption. Often

1:02:48

the New York Times will put it on page A13. I

1:02:52

think that if we want to prioritize saving

1:02:55

our democracy, we have to have a different

1:02:57

kind of placement of these

1:03:00

big stories. Also

1:03:02

to show the American public that people

1:03:04

are being held accountable when

1:03:07

January 6th insurgents are sentenced,

1:03:12

when the DOJ is doing things

1:03:14

to restore faith in institutions. Because

1:03:16

bashing the press is a popular

1:03:19

habit, but it's a symptom also

1:03:22

of this success of

1:03:24

the right of making

1:03:27

people lose faith in all institutions. Right,

1:03:29

absolutely. I

1:03:32

think one of the issues is Trump and

1:03:34

his opponents, especially C. Bannon, flood the zone

1:03:36

with crazy all the time. And so you

1:03:38

get exhausted, including January 6th. And so you're

1:03:40

like, oh, I'm tired of listening to it.

1:03:43

Anyway, it's a really important book.

1:03:46

There's a lot of really important

1:03:48

books out these days in this

1:03:50

area. Ruth Ben-Giat, her sub-stack is

1:03:52

called Lucid, and her book is

1:03:54

Strongmen, Mussolini to the Present. Little

1:03:57

light reading for you, Ruth. Thank you so

1:03:59

much. Thank you, I enjoyed the

1:04:01

conversation. Thank you, Professor. All

1:04:03

right, Scott, one more quick break. That was

1:04:06

a happy topic, and we'll be back

1:04:08

for wins and fails. Hey,

1:04:15

everyone, this is Jesse David Fox, host of

1:04:17

Good One, a podcast about jokes. I

1:04:19

am proud to announce that I have personally

1:04:21

won the streaming wars, and there's

1:04:23

a new docu-special on Peacock based on

1:04:26

our own Vulture podcast, Good

1:04:28

One, a show about jokes, but

1:04:30

it's called Mike Birbiglia, as he

1:04:32

develops new material, taking audiences through

1:04:34

the process of transforming personal stories

1:04:36

into stand-up. Featuring interviews with Mike's

1:04:38

family and comedy colleagues like Seth

1:04:40

Meyers, Hasan Minhaj, and Oscar Wakatska,

1:04:42

Good One, a show about jokes,

1:04:44

is streaming now, only on

1:04:47

Peacock. Hi,

1:04:51

everyone, I'm Brené Brown, and this is Unlocking

1:04:53

Us. In this podcast,

1:04:55

we'll explore ideas, stories, experiences,

1:04:58

research, books, films, music,

1:05:01

anything that reflects the universal experiences

1:05:03

of being human, from the bravest

1:05:05

moments to our most broken-hearted moments.

1:05:08

Some episodes will be conversations with the people who

1:05:10

are teaching me, challenging me,

1:05:12

confusing me, maybe ticking me

1:05:14

off a little bit. And some days, I'll

1:05:16

just talk directly to you about what I'm learning and how

1:05:18

it's changing the way I think and feel. The

1:05:21

first episodes are out now. We're going

1:05:23

to do three or four-part series every quarter, so about

1:05:25

12 to 15 episodes a year. Unlocking

1:05:28

Us will always drop on Wednesdays. And

1:05:31

now, you can find me wherever you normally

1:05:33

listen to your podcasts. You can get

1:05:36

new episodes as soon as they are published by following

1:05:38

Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app.

1:05:41

And as always, stay awkward, brave,

1:05:43

and kind. Okay,

1:05:54

Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Why don't

1:05:56

you go first? Mine are long, and you

1:05:58

cut me off. So do you want to go first? cut

1:06:00

you off. How do I cut you? You do. You're conflict in the

1:06:02

off. You're on a best-miss relationship. Oh my God.

1:06:04

Literally, no. Nobody thinks that. Do you want to

1:06:06

do a word count again? Just because you go

1:06:08

to Argentina. Yeah. We can do a word count

1:06:11

so I can prove to you again. A little

1:06:13

a-thah-to. A little a-thah-to. Audience, just so you know,

1:06:15

we do a secret word count and Scott always comes

1:06:17

out on top, just so you know. Just so you

1:06:19

know. Daddy's on top. He likes to be

1:06:21

in charge. Yeah, I'm daddy. Nidal and Alda

1:06:24

publicly is a caveman in the set. Hello,

1:06:26

baby. Oh my God. Hello. And

1:06:28

as you see, I totally outspeed him. I could

1:06:31

have been Mr. Senator Cantwell. All

1:06:34

right. My

1:06:36

win is the three-body problem. It's on Netflix.

1:06:39

We were just talking about Netflix. Whoa. It

1:06:41

is so cool. It's based on a,

1:06:43

I think it's a Chinese sci-fi thing.

1:06:45

And there's a really weird backstory. It's

1:06:47

the guys who did Game of Thrones, so they know how

1:06:49

to make a show. And they're

1:06:52

really talented. And I've

1:06:56

interviewed them before when they did Game of

1:06:58

Thrones. And this show is really compelling. It's

1:07:01

also weird. And the guy who

1:07:03

funded it was a Chinese billionaire who got murdered

1:07:05

by one of his employees. This is separately by

1:07:07

being poisoned. It's like this whole story is really,

1:07:09

but the story itself

1:07:12

is amazing. And it's hard. It's not

1:07:14

easy. You really have to pay attention.

1:07:16

And I'm compelled to

1:07:18

watch it. And a lot of these shows, I have to say, like I

1:07:20

did watch The Gentleman, that I'm not compelled

1:07:23

to watch the next one. This one, I

1:07:25

can't like, same thing with Shogun. What I think

1:07:27

about with streaming is do I want to keep

1:07:29

going? And there's a lot of stuff I leave

1:07:31

off. And I see my history of these things.

1:07:34

And Shogun

1:07:36

and this are the kind of things that

1:07:38

move me forward. They're beautifully made, really interesting.

1:07:40

The cast, I've never seen most of the

1:07:42

cast. There are some Jonathan Price's in it,

1:07:45

who's always fantastic. But this is a cast

1:07:47

I don't know. And I love that. That's

1:07:50

one of the things that's super compelling to

1:07:53

me. My fail is this

1:07:58

continued... situation

1:08:00

around abortion and Trump is trying to

1:08:02

thread the needle saying right now he's

1:08:05

saying abortion should be left to the states declines

1:08:07

to endorse the national limit. He was

1:08:09

he was pretending. But I

1:08:11

do think we have

1:08:13

to this is one of the more compelling reasons that I've

1:08:16

been talking to a lot of women particularly.

1:08:18

There are there are bands on

1:08:20

state bands on all or almost

1:08:22

most abortions in so many states,

1:08:24

the almost the entire south. And

1:08:26

then there's bands after 12 to

1:08:28

15 weeks and then banned blocked

1:08:30

by the court. There's several. But

1:08:33

much of this the south will be will

1:08:36

be without abortion rights.

1:08:38

So the entire south really, unless say Florida

1:08:41

wins in this election, where they put it into

1:08:43

the Constitution. But this is not happening. This is

1:08:45

no way to run a country on a big

1:08:47

issue. We have to come to

1:08:49

some sort of agreement. And then that I

1:08:52

think the best chance of that is Joe

1:08:54

Biden, obviously not Donald Trump. He's

1:08:56

made a mess of it. As we are

1:08:58

so that to me continues to be a vexing

1:09:01

issue, bodily autonomy. So I will

1:09:03

see if it should be a

1:09:06

much bigger issue. I understand why

1:09:08

immigration is I understand my crime is

1:09:10

but to me abortion, I think

1:09:12

will be the biggest issue, one of the bigger issues

1:09:14

in the election and should be. Go

1:09:16

ahead, Scott. So my

1:09:19

win a huge win for women's

1:09:22

sports viewership estimates

1:09:24

for the NC2A women's tournament

1:09:26

final between Caitlin Clark's Iowa

1:09:28

team and unbeaten South Carolina

1:09:30

are between 18 and

1:09:32

24 million to put that in

1:09:34

context. The upper figure would

1:09:37

be five times what the women's final drew

1:09:39

just two years ago. It would

1:09:41

also be get this care at every game

1:09:43

from last year's World Series, all

1:09:46

five games of the NBA finals,

1:09:48

all but two college football games and even

1:09:50

out to one of the NFL's postseason matchups.

1:09:53

This is I mean, the reality is

1:09:55

there's been a lot of complaints about equal pay

1:09:58

and I quite frankly said, well, it's As soon

1:10:00

as they start making as much money as men's

1:10:02

sports, they will get as much money. And now

1:10:04

it's happening. And

1:10:06

this is a seminal

1:10:09

moment for women's sports. You

1:10:11

know, basketball? Pulling

1:10:14

more than... She's a star. She's

1:10:16

a... Wow. Unbelievable. So

1:10:19

this is a really nice

1:10:21

moment for women's sports. And I

1:10:24

think it's always a big win.

1:10:26

Caitlin Clark and the South

1:10:28

Carolina team and just women's

1:10:31

sports in general. My fail... I

1:10:33

had a different fail, but what you

1:10:35

just said and what Professor Guillotte said

1:10:37

inspired me. In Florida,

1:10:40

the Supreme Court has said, actually, no, right

1:10:43

to abortion is not codified. The

1:10:46

governor can do this and limit it at six

1:10:49

weeks. Just someone who's put on the ballot a

1:10:52

resolution that would, in fact, give

1:10:54

everyone in Florida the constitutional right to have an abortion

1:10:56

and they need 60%. It's polling

1:10:58

pretty closely. So my

1:11:00

newsletter, No Marist in Your Mouth, I decided to do

1:11:03

a big deep dive into Roe. Bodily Autonomy has played

1:11:05

a big role in my life. And

1:11:08

so what I came to

1:11:10

sort of, I think, understand is that I was trying

1:11:12

to figure out what's going on

1:11:14

here. What are the drivers when you have

1:11:16

the majority of even Republicans, much less the

1:11:18

nation, are for some level of bodily autonomy,

1:11:21

what's going on? And

1:11:23

it's like, okay, it's about life. It's

1:11:25

not. The people who are

1:11:27

most vehemently ineffective around the pro-life

1:11:29

movement are the first to

1:11:32

want to advocate for capital punishment or force

1:11:34

a woman to carry essentially what becomes a

1:11:36

cancerous tumor around or put a

1:11:38

woman's health in jeopardy. It's not about life. And they think,

1:11:40

well, then Democrats go, they're not obsessed

1:11:42

with life, they're obsessed with birth. This

1:11:45

is the mark too, because again, it's the same

1:11:47

group who wants to cut funding

1:11:49

for the child tax credit. They don't want to

1:11:51

make it easier for young people to have children.

1:11:54

As a matter of fact, able-bodied people, young people between

1:11:56

the ages of 30 and 34 1990,

1:12:01

60% of them had at least one child and it's

1:12:03

dropped to 27%. So if we wanted more kids,

1:12:07

we could absolutely do it. We've just

1:12:09

decided we're not obsessed with birth. What

1:12:12

I determined or what all the data

1:12:14

shows is the following, and

1:12:16

this is both Professor Guillotte and Fareed

1:12:18

Zakaria's new book, The Age of

1:12:20

Revolutions, I think it's called Reflect, and that is

1:12:24

there are certain conservative wings of almost

1:12:26

every religion that are really uncomfortable with

1:12:28

the assent of women. And

1:12:30

the fastest way to quote unquote put them back

1:12:32

in their place is to do what we do

1:12:34

to the IRS or the antitrust

1:12:36

committee and that is to defund them. And

1:12:39

when you force a woman to carry a baby

1:12:41

to term against her will, you're

1:12:44

basically impoverishing her and diminishing

1:12:46

her power. And the

1:12:48

fact that more and more women are less

1:12:50

reliant on the government or on men is

1:12:53

really upsetting to some of these groups and they

1:12:55

want to go back. Now that's not the most

1:12:57

disturbing feature and this is my fail. There's

1:13:00

two stats. The

1:13:02

first is that the

1:13:05

greatest source of mortality by a factor

1:13:07

of two for women who

1:13:09

were either pregnant or recently given birth is

1:13:12

homicide. And abortion

1:13:14

gives women the opportunity to break

1:13:16

ties with a violent partner. But

1:13:19

the really, really disturbing factor is

1:13:21

the following. The

1:13:24

segment of America that

1:13:26

provides the least support around

1:13:28

bodily autonomy, it's

1:13:30

not old white people, it's Gen

1:13:32

Z men. Men 27 and younger

1:13:37

are the least supportive of

1:13:40

a woman's right to

1:13:42

terminate a pregnancy. And I believe

1:13:44

it's because young men feel shunned by women and

1:13:47

want to believe that if they take women back to the 50s and

1:13:49

60s, they're going to need them more. I don't know what it

1:13:51

is. I don't know if it's anger. I don't

1:13:54

know if it's conspiracy theory. I don't know if it's

1:13:56

just naked misogyny. But I

1:13:58

was absolutely shocked. and

1:14:00

rattled by the fact that young men are

1:14:03

the least supportive of a

1:14:05

woman's rights to terminate a pregnancy. And

1:14:07

it's also the definition of stupid because it not

1:14:10

only hurts society, hurts the

1:14:12

economy, it hurts them because to be

1:14:14

quite crass and blunt, when

1:14:17

you deny a woman a woman's ability

1:14:19

to plan out pregnancies and have kids

1:14:21

when she wants to, fellas,

1:14:24

let me tell you, this isn't

1:14:27

going to increase but decrease the likelihood

1:14:29

you ever get laid. What

1:14:31

do you think is going to happen to sex when

1:14:35

women may be forced

1:14:37

to carry a baby

1:14:39

to turn against her will? So

1:14:41

this is literally the definition of stupid. Young

1:14:43

men feel shunned by women. Young men want

1:14:45

more sex. It's not that they're more religious.

1:14:47

It's not all of a sudden they have

1:14:50

a new undying love for the unborn. It's

1:14:52

that they're angry at women. Let

1:14:54

me tell you, that is not a good rap.

1:14:57

That is not a good rap. Anyways, my

1:15:00

fail here is young men

1:15:02

who just do not understand

1:15:05

that bodily autonomy is key to

1:15:07

their ability to someday have kids.

1:15:09

They're key to someday find

1:15:11

a woman who wants to have a relationship and wants

1:15:13

to have sex with them that might result in a

1:15:15

partnership. And the fact

1:15:18

that we are mistaking this pro-life

1:15:20

movement for anything but the following

1:15:22

and that is trying to put this group

1:15:24

of people who have ascended faster globally

1:15:26

than any other group and

1:15:29

that is women. And we never win

1:15:31

taking groups back. So anyways, my fail

1:15:33

is Gen Z men. What the fuck

1:15:35

are you thinking? What the fuck are

1:15:37

you thinking? Doesn't that shock

1:15:39

you? No. It does not.

1:15:41

No, it shocked the shit out of me. No. I

1:15:44

think what Drew's was talking about, sort of

1:15:46

Uber Daddy, the manly man. It's

1:15:49

such a toxic. It's literally. I have spent my

1:15:51

whole life trying to raise sons who are not

1:15:54

the opposite of that but not that, right?

1:15:56

Because I want them to feel good about

1:15:58

being men. strong. I want

1:16:01

them to feel, you know, their gender. I do. I

1:16:04

do. You know, it sounds crazy, but I do.

1:16:06

But I also, you

1:16:10

know, one time years ago, I remember people were

1:16:12

surprised by this. Louis really wanted to learn how

1:16:14

to shoot a gun, and he did.

1:16:17

And I wasn't going to deny my, I

1:16:19

put him with someone who knew how to shoot guns.

1:16:21

He wanted to go hunting. He did. And I, you

1:16:24

know, I was like, I, he was, do you want to go with me? And

1:16:27

like, I don't have any interest. I think it's grotesque

1:16:29

in many ways. But you

1:16:31

should do what you want. And he got his gun, he got

1:16:33

his gun license in California, he took all the tests. He

1:16:36

went with a friend of mine, who was

1:16:38

also a great fisherman and hunter who also

1:16:40

took him fishing and, and up

1:16:42

in California, on those boats for you. And

1:16:45

I just feel like I was

1:16:48

people like, how can you do that? I was like,

1:16:50

he wants to try it. He doesn't like it now.

1:16:52

But he did it. And so I wanted them to

1:16:54

feel their, whatever they want to

1:16:56

feel. But definitely, I spent a lot

1:16:58

of time thinking about how they treat

1:17:01

women and how they think about women.

1:17:03

And I have to say both of them

1:17:05

are very good boyfriends. They're very good. You

1:17:08

know what I mean? Like they care about

1:17:10

their partner's health and their well being,

1:17:12

I think. From

1:17:14

what I can see, I think there's Alex

1:17:17

has a new girlfriend who's wonderful, who knows

1:17:19

her own stuff, she's a strong woman. And

1:17:21

he's attracted to that in a good way.

1:17:23

And so I agree with you. I don't

1:17:26

know what's in their fucking hands, these men.

1:17:28

I honestly don't. I think a

1:17:30

lot of it is, I mean, one third,

1:17:33

two thirds of women under the age of 30

1:17:35

have a boyfriend, only one third of men. Women

1:17:37

are dating older because they want someone more economically

1:17:39

and emotionally viable. I also do think, I don't

1:17:42

want to be too Alan Alda here, I do

1:17:44

think that media has taught women to

1:17:47

exit a relationship that you don't need this,

1:17:49

you deserve better, and the Carly Simon song

1:17:51

in the background. I don't think enough women, if

1:17:54

you go to these sites, women all want the

1:17:56

same guy who's over 60, Tyler makes over a

1:17:58

hundred thousand dollars. with online

1:18:01

dating, speedballs, this unreasonable filter.

1:18:03

They lose that advantage pretty

1:18:05

soon, right? They lose... And

1:18:07

they all end up alone. Yeah, they lose that advantage. And they

1:18:09

all end up alone. Yeah. But

1:18:12

young men... But here's the thing. Young

1:18:14

women who are more attracted because men

1:18:16

will always be more attracted to younger

1:18:18

women, not always, but

1:18:20

most, and then what you have

1:18:22

is a group of 20-somethings, especially

1:18:25

men, who resent women because they feel like they've been

1:18:27

shunned by them on dating apps, and I think they

1:18:29

become very resentful. And

1:18:33

I don't... I can't... It's very... It's

1:18:35

a real shame. And then unfortunately, men

1:18:37

without the prospect of a romantic relationship go

1:18:40

down to a much darker place than a

1:18:42

woman without a prospect for a romantic relationship.

1:18:44

And that is women have much stronger social

1:18:46

networks than the consequent guardrails

1:18:49

and consequent care and love, whereas guys

1:18:52

without the prospect of a romantic relationship

1:18:54

get angry and they like, you

1:18:56

know, stop looking for a job. Stop showering.

1:18:58

That can happen. That can... And

1:19:01

that's one thing we should be pressing for men is

1:19:03

friendships. One thing I'm really happy

1:19:05

about the boys is they all have really good

1:19:07

male friendships and female friendships. And

1:19:09

I think that's something we don't push enough with men.

1:19:11

I spend a lot of time... I'm

1:19:13

thrilled Alice is in a frat. I couldn't

1:19:15

be more thrilled. Well, I was just in

1:19:17

Israel and they have mandatory national service. And

1:19:19

I was at this memorial at

1:19:22

the Nova Music Festival and I met all of these...

1:19:25

I call them kids. I mean, they literally look like

1:19:27

they're in high school carer and it's

1:19:29

women compulsory for two years, men for three years.

1:19:32

And all of these young

1:19:34

men and women in uniform who carry

1:19:36

an automatic rifle, so they have to

1:19:39

learn about moral ambiguity, technology,

1:19:42

making snap decisions. They

1:19:44

serve in the agency of something bigger

1:19:47

than themselves and they're all together and

1:19:49

they're all outside and they're all working

1:19:51

their asses off. They meet business partners,

1:19:53

friends, they meet boyfriends, girlfriends, mates. To

1:19:57

your point, we need a big investment

1:19:59

in... trying to get a cure

1:20:02

and decrease loneliness among young people, because they

1:20:04

just don't know how to handle it.

1:20:08

It's terrible for them. Yep, but

1:20:10

when it becomes, last point I'll make, I'm

1:20:12

judging the Livingston Awards, and there's all these

1:20:14

amazing stories, but one of them was

1:20:17

about Afghan women, their suicide

1:20:19

rate is going up since the

1:20:21

Taliban took over, because they live in

1:20:23

these domestic violent relationships, and they don't

1:20:26

get choices anymore. So it was a

1:20:29

fascinating story, but

1:20:31

those kind of things degrade so quickly. So

1:20:33

if you combine what Ruth was talking

1:20:35

about with this trend, it's really, it creates

1:20:37

a bad society for everybody. Anyway, very good

1:20:40

topic, Scott. It's a really interesting point you're

1:20:42

making. I really appreciate all your words on

1:20:44

that. All your many words. My

1:20:47

many, my two to one never ending word.

1:20:50

Never ending, it's not two to one, but

1:20:52

it's not not two to one. Anyway, we

1:20:54

wanna hear from you. Send us your questions

1:20:57

about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind.

1:20:59

Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for

1:21:01

the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay,

1:21:04

Scott, that is the show. Are you traveling anywhere?

1:21:06

Are you sit and stay and put? I'm

1:21:09

here for a couple weeks, and I go, I'm speaking at

1:21:11

TED in late April, and

1:21:14

then I'm going down to LA

1:21:16

for Mar, and then I'm going

1:21:18

to Miami, then I'm going to New York. I'm doing

1:21:20

my, but I'm here for the. You know, I'll

1:21:22

be in London in mid May. I don't think

1:21:24

you're gonna be there. Maybe

1:21:27

we'll go out for dinner. Anyway, I'm

1:21:29

also going to Austin this week to

1:21:31

do at the LBJ library. Yeah, I'm

1:21:34

doing a little thing with Larry Wilmer

1:21:36

there at the thing. Larry Wilmer? Yes, yeah.

1:21:38

I love that guy. I know, I do

1:21:40

too. I love Larry Wilmer. He's funny and

1:21:42

he's smart. Yeah, he asked me to come do

1:21:44

this thing, or they asked me to come do it with him. We

1:21:47

have a nice rapport. We hit was on a

1:21:49

show once, and then I'm not even

1:21:51

gonna say, I'm gonna tell you Thursday what I'm

1:21:53

doing Friday. You're gonna die so good. Is

1:21:56

it involved Senator Cantwell, Patty Stump,

1:21:58

Cyber Emily, Orkoski? No, no,

1:22:00

I'm going to LA to do some stuff,

1:22:02

but I'll tell you that later. I'll tell

1:22:04

you that later. Yeah. Anyway. Is

1:22:07

it someone I like, or you're gonna start making it? Are you gonna steal another

1:22:09

one of my male friends? No, these are

1:22:11

female friends that you probably wanna have

1:22:13

friendships with. Anyway, we'll be back on

1:22:15

Friday with more, and I'll tell you

1:22:17

about that right before that happens. Scott,

1:22:20

read us out. Today's show was produced by

1:22:22

Lara Naman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie

1:22:24

and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also

1:22:26

to Drew Burrows and Neil Saverio. Nishat

1:22:28

Koroa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio.

1:22:30

Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever

1:22:33

you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to

1:22:35

Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox

1:22:37

Media. You can subscribe to the magazine

1:22:39

at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this

1:22:41

week for another breakdown of

1:22:43

all things tech and business. The great people

1:22:46

of Washington state, meet the

1:22:48

first dude, the dog.