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0:35

Hello everyone and welcome back to Perpetual

0:37

Chess. Listeners, viewers, we have a new

0:39

world champion, Grandmaster Ding Loren.

0:41

There's so much to go through. I'm going to try to keep the

0:44

intro short. I've been trying to catch people up in case

0:46

they weren't watching the match, but I feel like everyone's

0:48

probably caught up. So we'll keep it brief

0:50

before we bring in our guest, Grandmaster Erwin

0:52

Lemie. Did want to give a shout out to our presenting

0:55

Chess Education sponsors, Chessable.com.

0:57

They've got a fantastic array of opening choices,

1:01

tactics courses, whatever it is

1:03

that you're interested in working on. And of course they have spaced

1:05

repetition to help you learn. I

1:08

have a list of my favorite courses that you can check

1:10

out that will be linked to in the show description with

1:12

descriptions of for what level it is

1:15

best suited. And I'll be updating that list

1:17

as time goes on. And of course they have free

1:19

courses that you can check out as well if you go

1:21

to their page and filter for

1:23

free. So quick rundown of

1:26

the match, Ding Loren, just an incredible display

1:28

of resilience and fighting chess through the match.

1:31

He outlasted Nepo more than anything.

1:33

I mean, they both, it was a knockdown

1:35

drag out affair. He won in the final

1:37

rapid tie break, as you guys probably

1:39

know. Let's do a quick rundown of what

1:42

we've, what has happened since the last pod

1:44

game. 14 of course was a fighting draw.

1:47

Ding tried this Bishop D2 line in the Nimzo

1:49

was worse out of the opening and he ended up

1:51

groveling. As we say, he held on for

1:53

a 90 minute draw. He found a few

1:56

in a few situations in the end game, there was only

1:58

one move to hold the game.

1:59

and he managed to hold it. So

2:02

good job by Ding and that's at the stage

2:05

for Sunday for game rapid playoff.

2:07

Game one was a banger. Definitely recommend

2:09

you check that one out. Ding

2:12

had some pressure. Nepo found

2:14

this cool concept. He started the counter attack

2:16

and found this cool concept of a queen sacrifice

2:18

that could not be taken. But

2:21

ultimately, the balance was held

2:23

and the game ended in a draw. Games

2:25

two and three were slightly more

2:28

solid. Game three in particular in the rapid

2:30

playoff. And in the

2:32

fourth game, if you're

2:34

only, I assume you've probably seen a recap

2:37

if you didn't watch it live. I actually recommend

2:39

you go back and watch the replay live. Just

2:41

an incredible moment of a heightened

2:43

tension that built throughout the game that got

2:45

down to a few minutes on the clock. Of

2:48

course, Nepo was white and was

2:50

pressing at times. Ding

2:53

played this legendary move, Rook g6,

2:55

self-pinning his rook to press

2:57

for a win when they both had less than a minute

2:59

and a half on the clock.

3:02

And Nepo faulted shortly thereafter.

3:04

Falttered. I think he was sort of in a psychological

3:07

release mode where he was acquiescing

3:09

to a draw. Ding was up

3:11

material and went for

3:13

it. And Nepo missed a

3:15

key idea of kicking the queen

3:18

off the diagonal, pinning the rook with the c4. And boom,

3:21

Ding suddenly took control. Nepo

3:24

still had some chances, but they were both so short on

3:26

time that Nepo

3:28

did not find the chances to draw. And we have

3:30

a new world champion. Ding, of course,

3:32

wins 1.1 million euros for

3:35

his effort. 30 years

3:37

of age. The first Chinese open

3:39

world champion. Of course, we've had

3:42

Chinese women world champions and in fact have

3:45

won now. So both chess world

3:47

champions currently are from China.

3:49

Ding was basically

3:52

overrun with emotion at the time.

3:54

He just kind of slumped and

3:57

Nepo obviously handled his loss well.

3:59

But quite

3:59

upset after a grueling match

4:02

when he threw in the towel and the press conference

4:04

ding said a lot of moving things but I thought

4:07

this quote in particular was moving he said I

4:09

started to learn chess from four years old I spent 26

4:12

years playing analyzing trying

4:14

to improve my chess ability many different

4:17

ways with different changing methods with

4:19

many new ways of training I think I

4:21

did everything sometimes I thought I was addicted

4:24

to chess because sometimes without tournaments I

4:26

was not so happy sometimes I struggled

4:28

to find other hobbies to make

4:29

me happy this match reflects

4:32

the deepness of my soul I could not control

4:34

my mood I'll cry I'll burst

4:36

into tears it was quite a tough tournament

4:39

for me oh I for me I feel quite

4:41

relieved so touching

4:43

statement from ding and you could really see the emotion

4:46

in his face and I think

4:49

that sets the stage we've got lots to discuss

4:51

with one of my favorite people to talk

4:53

to about top-level chess grandmaster

4:56

Erwin Lamee so let's get you to it

4:59

and we are here with a return guest he is one

5:02

of the top players in the Netherlands has been a regular

5:04

member of the Dutch Olympiad team since 2006 winner

5:07

of the 2015 Reykjavik Open

5:09

he's also a highly respected opening theoretician

5:12

he has worked on the teams of former

5:14

Fide world champion Vasilin Topolov and

5:16

perennial top 10 player Anish Giri

5:19

he's also a very popular chessable author

5:21

I definitely recommend Lifetime repertoire as Caro

5:24

Khan and he's got many other offerings as well

5:26

I believe he may be working on one in

5:28

addition to that but

5:29

of course the order of the day is to discuss

5:32

the world championship and we are excited to welcome back

5:34

to the program grandmaster Erwin Lamee welcome

5:36

Erwin thank

5:37

you thanks for having me great to be back yeah

5:40

excited as I've mentioned on previous

5:42

pods like

5:43

you're not someone who's tweeting a lot except

5:45

when the world championship comes along you'll occasionally

5:47

share a thought and and I always

5:49

enjoy it but but let's dive right

5:51

in I mean we're recording this of course

5:54

Monday the day after the rapid playoff

5:57

I was watching live as

5:59

I think a lot

5:59

of chess fans were, but let's go straight to game

6:02

four, Erwin. So were you watching live as

6:04

Ding turned the tables and won

6:07

the final playoff?

6:08

Absolutely. Absolutely. Now I

6:12

was there from the start. So it was 11 in the morning

6:14

for me here in the Netherlands.

6:16

For you, it was a bit earlier, I think. Yes,

6:18

for sure. And yeah, that last

6:21

game was just,

6:23

I don't know where it came from, to be honest.

6:26

I had the feeling that NaPo was

6:28

pretty much in control of

6:31

this whole tiebreak. And then suddenly

6:33

these moves, I'm not going to go into too much chess

6:36

here because that's maybe not what we

6:38

want, but those moves Bishop before,

6:40

and especially, of course, Rook g6 going into that

6:42

self pin and Magnus tweeted about

6:44

it.

6:45

That showed such enormous

6:49

confidence, I don't even

6:51

know how to call it, but

6:54

I'm not surprised that NaPo collapsed instantly

6:56

because it was such a shocker for everyone.

6:59

First of all, this move Bishop before, everybody

7:01

was a bit surprised already because it looked like the Bishop

7:03

is a bit out of play there. And then

7:09

to avoid the repetition the way he did,

7:11

it was just, and then, okay, the final, I also,

7:15

his reaction to the win. I don't know

7:17

if you, I mean, that was, yeah,

7:21

I was touched a bit by the whole, the

7:24

whole set. I felt, of course, bad for Jan because yeah, obviously

7:27

he definitely had his chances to win. But

7:31

then also, yeah, Ding is such a nice

7:33

guy and you also wish him

7:35

all the best. So it was,

7:37

yeah, it was very, in

7:39

a way, very beautiful

7:42

and at the same time brutal last

7:45

game to watch that fourth Tyra

7:47

game.

7:48

Yeah, I felt the same way. I'm

7:50

a sports fan and you occasionally

7:53

get these moments when you're following sports where

7:55

someone sort of finds something within, you know,

7:58

where they

9:59

It shows how,

10:02

what kind of decision being made there.

10:04

It's really shocking. But I've got your question,

10:06

sorry. No, no, but that's exactly

10:09

what I wanted to get to because I

10:11

didn't catch that. I was probably on the Levatov channel.

10:13

I know that Svidler mentioned that he was doing some Russian

10:15

broadcast for that. So I'll have to check that

10:17

out. But I was also watching the Chess.com

10:20

broadcast, but apparently on the FIDE broadcast

10:22

with Vichyannan, they

10:24

were slightly less shocked by Rook G6, but

10:27

certainly on the Chess.com broadcast,

10:29

similarly, Tanya and

10:31

Fabiano were just in the process of dismissing

10:34

the move as Ding played

10:36

it.

10:37

I like that a lot about Chess.com.

10:40

I only watch Chess.com, so I can only speak

10:43

on their behalf, you can say.

10:47

Fabiano was there bringing

10:49

the experience

10:53

in the excellent Chess also. Obviously

10:55

he brought a lot of wisdom how to approach

10:57

these things. I really like to listen to his commentary.

11:00

Then they also have the healthy mix of

11:02

sometimes they throw in some engine lines. So

11:04

they do that very well. I think that balance between,

11:08

because it's very easy to just throw out some

11:10

engine lines. Of course you see them on Twitter,

11:13

you see people shouting, run the, run the. But

11:15

I like how, especially Fabiano, how

11:17

he gave meaning to those moves.

11:20

And it often turns out not to be that simple actually.

11:23

Yeah, for sure. And I feel like it's been

11:25

a bit of a change over the years. I

11:28

feel like in earlier years of Chess broadcast,

11:30

you often would have the announcers

11:32

consciously never looking at the engine. But

11:35

I think as Chess has brought in more fans, viewers

11:39

for better or worse are so glued to the engine

11:41

bar that the announcers I think don't

11:43

want to miss something major. Have you noticed that change as

11:45

well?

11:46

Yeah, you can't really ignore it anymore.

11:48

It's just, it's so powerful. Also,

11:51

it feels a bit weird if you're talking about something

11:54

and in the meantime, the engine already shows

11:56

a much, much superior move, something

11:58

that's maybe even winning.

13:51

hopefully

14:00

a lot of people shared our feeling of

14:02

being extremely entertained. But

14:05

let's zoom back a little bit because

14:08

it's one of those also similar to sports. One

14:10

of those things where like that moment was

14:12

so incredible that it can make you forget

14:14

all the previous moments and all the other times

14:17

that either player or especially Ding was sort of

14:19

hanging on by a thread. And of course, Ding

14:22

was very fortunate to even be in the world championship

14:24

given the circumstances under which he got into the

14:26

candidates, the circumstances under which he got from

14:29

the candidates to the world championship. But

14:32

so I'm just curious, Erwin, like,

14:34

were you watching live throughout the match?

14:36

And what was your impression of the classical

14:38

portion of the match?

14:41

Yeah, I before the match, I thought

14:44

that my might that I might still do some

14:46

other things as well. But it

14:48

turned out that I was mostly just watching the match. Right.

14:51

It's just it's

14:53

just too interesting not to

14:56

follow it. It's just it's

14:59

just great. And yeah, Ding,

15:03

of course, initially, he had such

15:05

a tough time. I think

15:08

he was asked at the final press conference if

15:11

he regretted anything.

15:13

And he said something along the lines that

15:15

he wants. So he he felt

15:17

like it's all it's all fine. But I think

15:19

for the future, this

15:22

experience will be so big for him because he

15:24

I think next time he'll be able

15:26

to settle in much more easily. He was

15:30

it was a show shaky at the start. It

15:32

was almost painful to watch. I remember this first press

15:35

conferences. Yeah,

15:37

he just looked so unhappy with

15:40

everything with his play with with being

15:42

there. Yeah.

15:44

So once again, I forgot

15:46

your question. But

15:50

I mean,

15:51

I want to follow up on that. My question was relating

15:53

to just your overall impression of the classical match.

15:56

But let's come back to that in a minute because I

15:58

do feel like that

15:59

That was

16:01

that made him so relatable. And then it ended

16:03

up sort of tracing this arc

16:05

because, you know, it looked like he could have just been knocked

16:07

out right at the beginning and he kind of finds

16:10

his footing, but then there are many moments where he could have fallen.

16:12

And then for him to win at the end, I mean, I saw

16:14

someone on Twitter say like, they could turn this into

16:16

a movie and it really did sort of feel like a

16:18

sports movie. But

16:21

bringing it back, especially as someone who's worked

16:24

with elite players and helped them with

16:26

their prep team, Ding, obviously, and

16:28

Richard Rapport. And we don't know as far as I know, if

16:30

anyone else was working with them, but they made some

16:32

curious opening choices, especially with the white,

16:35

not really pushing hard for an edge. What

16:38

did you think of these choices, Erwin?

16:41

Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

16:43

I have to be a bit

16:46

harsh here. I think, I mean, opening wise,

16:49

it was really not a success for, for Ding.

16:51

Yeah. Um, um, Jan

16:54

mostly played E4

16:55

throughout the match. And one

16:58

time he played D4 just to probably check what,

17:00

uh, what Ding was planning there. There was not a big

17:02

success. It was a draw, the D4 game, but other

17:05

games were all one E4.

17:06

And yeah, Ding

17:09

was suffering throughout. His Spanish

17:11

just wasn't really up to it. Uh,

17:14

he was worse every single game, even in a tie

17:16

break, he was worse or under

17:18

pressure at the very least.

17:20

So that cannot be

17:22

considered a very big, uh, big success.

17:24

Uh, I was a bit disappointed to be honest with his

17:26

prep. Uh, I was thinking that

17:28

for this match, he will really have his E4, E5

17:31

repertoire on a, on a,

17:33

on a, on a, on a new level.

17:36

And it was interesting, but I think Daniel Dubov

17:38

said, uh, he mentioned that,

17:40

um,

17:43

it looks like, it looked like to him

17:45

that at some point in his career, Ding just decided

17:47

that E4, E5 is his opening and it's

17:49

what he does most mostly. Um,

17:52

but in his view, it maybe doesn't really fit

17:54

him very well. And, and to be honest,

17:56

I had the same feeling during the match that Jan

17:58

displays his positions better. Jan

18:01

seems to be more at home in them

18:04

and he got such comfortable,

18:06

nice advantages out of the opening. And then he would

18:08

also, at

18:10

least in my view, play them better afterwards. So

18:12

that was real suffering for Ding there.

18:17

And with White, he had

18:19

these experiments, H3, where

18:22

a lot has been said about that move.

18:25

Of course, it's a fine move. You can make

18:27

that move.

18:28

But it didn't really turn out to be a big

18:30

success, especially because I think

18:32

at that point in the match,

18:34

he wasn't yet settled in.

18:36

So I think I speak about

18:38

game two now, which he lost with the White pieces.

18:41

He played at move H3 or move

18:43

four. And I think you do that in

18:45

a moment where you are feeling

18:48

confident when you're settled in. And

18:51

at that moment, he was actually very shaky. Psychologically,

18:54

it looked shaky. So

18:57

I was a bit surprised with that choice. I think you can

18:59

play it. There's nothing wrong with the move.

19:02

I mean, White is not worse by any means. But

19:04

I think to go for that sort of fight

19:06

where you basically say, well, I

19:08

take us both out of book and

19:11

we just start playing, it

19:13

felt a bit

19:14

wrong, only timed in a way to

19:17

me. For example, the Londons that he played

19:19

later in the order, the Cola systems

19:21

that he played later in the match, that's

19:23

a bit more of a restraint. He

19:26

could easily have played that as well early

19:28

on.

19:29

But overall, I think opening wise, preparation

19:31

wise, Nick April was definitely

19:33

leading.

19:35

As I think that thing,

19:37

he couldn't really compensate with the White pieces,

19:41

the minuses he got with the Black pieces. Of

19:43

course, with White, he also got some pressure in, but

19:46

I felt that Jan was definitely

19:49

superior in the opening. It

19:52

had a

19:52

quite serious impact on the match also, I

19:54

think.

19:56

Yeah, and the surprises were

19:58

coming so early, which, to me, was a bit of a surprise.

19:59

my mind, I mean, you would be able to speak

20:02

to this better than me, but the

20:04

earlier you deviate from sort of main

20:06

moves, the kind of more speculative

20:09

it's going to be, you know, when he's going like 4h3

20:12

and 3c3 in the

20:14

rapid playoff, even the Bishop

20:16

d2 line against the nimzo, obviously

20:18

that's not as obscure, but I mean,

20:21

as far as I know, doesn't have a very good theoretical

20:23

reputation. So it was

20:25

almost to me like an unprecedented level

20:28

of sort of punting with the white

20:29

pieces. Do you share that? Yeah,

20:32

the difference though, I think between that

20:34

move h3 that he played and

20:36

those e3 c3, I don't know

20:39

how to call them, systems that

20:41

he played later on, because those

20:43

are at least you could say relatively solid, you can

20:45

make normal move there and you will get a game in

20:47

h3, you really have to prove something, it's something

20:51

it's a different type of game that you're aiming for

20:53

there. So it's in a way more risky

20:56

than what he did later on in

20:58

the match. Yeah, I mean, chess principles 101,

21:01

you're moving a side pawn on move four.

21:03

Yes. I think he just, of

21:05

course, Jan, he had, I think, a very

21:08

clear repertoire for black. I

21:10

think he didn't, well, we

21:12

don't know what he wanted f3 for, but I

21:15

mean, I don't think he planned to deviate from

21:17

much from his plan that he had against

21:20

Carlson.

21:21

So he just wanted to close the game with

21:23

black, which is a normal strategy.

21:26

You could see that in his black games in

21:28

1d4, for example, he was going for the same things.

21:31

And I guess Dinges didn't find any good

21:34

ideas against the Catalan.

21:36

So that opening was, was out

21:38

in a way. And so he just

21:40

reverted to the sidelines, which is a,

21:43

which is a decent strategy.

21:47

I think it's a

21:50

pretty decent strategy. And of course,

21:52

another big difference, this

21:55

match compared to the previous matches with

21:57

Magnus Carlsen, for example, is that

21:59

when When Carlsen played,

22:02

the opponents were automatically...

22:04

Well, Carlsen was

22:06

a big favorite in all of his matches. He

22:09

was just a strong player in the world. Still is.

22:12

There's nothing changed. And

22:15

of course his opponents knew that as well, so they wanted

22:17

to keep the risk to a minimum. And

22:20

that meant that both with White and with Black,

22:23

with White's nape against

22:26

Carlsen didn't take much risks. He was playing relatively

22:29

solid, tried to press a little bit, but if

22:31

that didn't work, he would shut the game down.

22:34

With Black, he also tried to shut the game down. So those

22:36

games were very

22:38

dry in a way. Those

22:40

were not the very most entertaining matches

22:43

of all. Also the match with Karjaki and the

22:45

match with Karwana was more playful, but still.

22:48

But here you had two players, Ding and

22:51

Napo, that were sort of equal.

22:53

And I think they both felt that they can win this match, that they can

22:55

beat the opponents. And

22:58

so they went for much more play in

23:00

the opening phase of the game.

23:02

They really tried to make a game. And

23:04

that was, I think, the big difference with

23:07

the previous matches that we saw. Yeah,

23:10

and it seemed to reverberate. I mean, it

23:12

seemed to have an impact

23:14

throughout the game, obviously, when they were on

23:17

such an unfamiliar ground from early

23:19

in the game. Yeah, their decision-making completely

23:21

changes. I mean, if you... Of course,

23:23

psychologically it's difficult. If you play someone

23:26

that you know is stronger,

23:27

it's going to impact you in

23:29

a way. You're going to make slightly safer choices. You're

23:32

going to take a little bit less risk.

23:34

But here they both felt they can win, and it

23:36

showed. They really tried to

23:39

keep play in

23:41

the position at all times.

23:43

Yeah.

23:43

Erwin, I want to follow up and get into

23:45

Napo's psychology, because it also was fascinating.

23:48

But first we're going to take a quick break and

23:50

hear from our sponsors.

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Small Light, new episodes Mondays

24:22

at 9. Now streaming on Hulu and Disney+.

24:27

And we're back. And with Nepo, I

24:29

also thought it was fascinating, because whereas

24:31

with Ding, you could see sort of

24:34

confidence waxing and waning, and you

24:37

could feel the clock ticking. And with

24:39

Nepo, it was often the opposite. And of course,

24:41

that's been the line on him for

24:43

many years that he can be impulsive

24:45

at time, move too quickly. But

24:48

even Fabiano was pretty unsparing in

24:50

some of the things he said during the course of the match,

24:53

like things along the lines of, doesn't he

24:55

know this as a world championship match? Because

24:58

there would be moments where there's a key sequence and

25:00

he would just blitz out another move,

25:02

like the moment where he played Ponda E5 in game 14 comes

25:06

to mind when he really had

25:08

Ding on the ropes. I'm curious, as someone

25:11

who's worked with top players, have

25:13

you ever had a moment where you're trying to help

25:15

bring about some sort of behavior change? I'm

25:18

guessing not, given the players you've worked

25:20

with, but I am curious.

25:22

That's the thing, right? Top players,

25:25

they are top players for a reason. And

25:28

Jan, especially, we

25:31

had last Saturday, we had Jan Timann coming

25:33

to the Max Eui Center to comment on the 14th game. Oh,

25:36

wow. And he also mentioned that

25:39

Jan's strengths are at the same

25:41

time his weaknesses. He

25:45

can sometimes be so strong

25:47

and fast. And this is

25:49

so impressive. And he also mentioned

25:53

that he played Jan both at

25:55

his best and his worst. And

25:57

the difference is enormous.

34:01

system of playing the game and that's

34:03

something you don't want to do, I think.

34:06

Okay, so is this something that Anish

34:08

has worked on? I mean, I

34:11

agree. His psychology seems remarkably

34:13

strong. You don't see him. I mean, we all have

34:15

an occasional blunder or something, but he's

34:17

not no self-inflicted

34:20

wounds for the most part. Does

34:22

he have a sports psychologist that you're aware of

34:24

or is it just sort of that's his natural disposition?

34:28

I think it's just his natural disposition. Like

34:30

you say, it's something that he just,

34:33

yeah, just like Napo, he's this

34:36

person who's on fire very, very easily

34:39

on the boards and he's very calm, very

34:41

restrained, very...

34:43

So I think this

34:45

way of playing comes natural to

34:47

him. It's who he is. It's his personality

34:50

that comes out on the board, I think.

34:54

So yeah, that's also very much what it is

34:57

in a way.

34:59

If you're speaking about changing such

35:01

things, you really have to change that

35:03

on a very personal level.

35:05

So I really, like you say, sports

35:07

psychologists, I think those are the

35:10

type of people that can help in this kind of situation

35:12

because it's really something that you have to change on a

35:14

very deep level if

35:16

you want to change something about your

35:19

psychology as a player.

35:20

Yeah. And the Napo self-destruction,

35:23

I mean, of course, as we mentioned, he

35:25

does have one clear

35:28

psychological shortcoming that is also a strength

35:31

at times. But to

35:33

me, I don't know, that felt like such a unique

35:35

moment. Like he's not someone that where

35:37

the lights often get too big and he

35:39

often kind of blows a strong

35:42

position. His

35:44

struggles in the past, I feel like, have been more round

35:47

to round. Once he loses a game,

35:49

things can unravel, whereas this one, just

35:51

the game itself unraveled. So

35:53

I don't know. I mean, you're only in potentially,

35:56

for all practical purposes, clinching world championship

35:59

game once. Certainly, I would think he

36:01

needs to address it if he gets on that stage again,

36:03

but otherwise, I'm not sure if it'll be a recurring issue.

36:05

What do you think?

36:08

Yeah, it's very, I mean, you speak

36:10

specifically about game 12, I think now. Yeah, yeah,

36:12

yeah, yeah, that is. Yeah, that is how I mean,

36:15

it was not.

36:16

To me, it was, I mean, I was following

36:18

the game live without an engine

36:21

at the time, I was traveling. So

36:23

I,

36:24

and during those critical moments

36:26

where where all these crazy things happened, it

36:28

wasn't that straightforward to me that

36:30

the wins that he had,

36:34

the only real case moment to me was F5

36:36

because it was just that was that was just

36:38

inexplicable. But at that point, he was already

36:40

no longer on the good side of things objectively.

36:42

Right. Speaking, right, there's already a find there,

36:45

a thing at that one upon somehow and,

36:48

or he has grabbed upon somehow, and he was

36:50

hanging on to it. And

36:52

according to the engine, right or slightly better, I think

36:54

at that at that moment, but those those wins, I think,

36:56

were not that easy. So

36:59

yeah, once again, I'm not sure how, what

37:02

conclusions to draw from from that is it's a

37:04

bit boring, perhaps. I just, I

37:07

don't want to pretend to be knowledgeable. It's,

37:09

it's, it's, it's very hard

37:11

to draw conclusions from from games, you'd

37:14

really have to speak with him to hear

37:16

what he had calculated, what he had seen. Because

37:19

sometimes there are just a chess reason for things. Sometimes

37:21

you just calculate something, and

37:24

you go for it, for instance,

37:26

I had myself very

37:28

often games where I had, for

37:30

example, the opportunity to go for

37:32

an attack. And I was

37:34

calculating something. And then I thought that the attack

37:36

is not working. And then later on, people came to me and said, Come

37:38

on, you're, you're afraid to attack or

37:41

what? Then I just, yeah, but I didn't see

37:43

the continuation. I went, I calculated

37:45

the line, but I didn't see the continuation. And then they understood,

37:47

yeah, okay, so you wanted to, but yeah, you didn't see the way

37:50

to play. So it can be both. It can

37:52

be multiple reasons why somebody doesn't

37:54

make the right move. So you really have to speak

37:57

with the person. See what, what,

39:59

separately. And then

40:02

yesterday, of course, the first question they're asked

40:04

after after this

40:07

incredible moment is about the weather in

40:10

Astana. That was insane, right?

40:12

Yeah, I was going nuts. Yeah, I

40:14

was I was sitting there for the press conference.

40:16

I was ready to see some nice

40:18

questions coming about the game about how he

40:20

came up with Route 6 and how did you feel?

40:23

And then the first question is

40:25

how did how do you like your stay? And how do you like the weather

40:27

and what did you do the rest day? And that

40:29

was that was a bit painful. It

40:32

was really yeah, that

40:34

was really not good. Yeah,

40:36

quite strange. Okay, we've got a follow

40:38

up question from Hans Schuh related

40:41

to the psychology of the match. He says,

40:43

Magnus Carlsen stated that Nepo's ceiling

40:46

is closer to his but Nepo's floor

40:48

is much lower than Magnus's. And

40:50

Jonathan Roussin stated in 2021 that

40:53

Magnus forced Nepo to his floor in their match.

40:56

The strong weak and the weaker because strength is

40:58

a function of the will. And in a context

41:00

where there's no escape, one side will ultimately

41:02

yield to the other. Jonathan talked about

41:05

this in his great book, The Moves that Matter.

41:07

So, Han asked, do you believe

41:09

that Nepo's collapse in game 12 had anything

41:11

to do with things willpower or

41:14

was it merely caused by the match situation?

41:18

Oh, it's a deep one.

41:20

I do. I do really like by the way, that's code that

41:22

you. Yeah. And I

41:24

do think there is

41:27

a

41:27

lot going on between two players during

41:29

a match. I mean, I don't know if we spoke about

41:32

that, but I remember when Topalov

41:34

played with Anant

41:37

in 2010, I was there, I was helping

41:39

Topalov there. And during

41:43

that match, at some point, Veselin

41:45

wanted to avoid all kind of technical

41:48

positions.

41:50

Even though he plays them perfectly well, but

41:53

he didn't feel good in them any

41:56

more. Well, so that's sort

41:58

of an advantage that passed over to

41:59

Vichy because Vichy was playing Catalan

42:02

in that match. So he was going for those

42:04

technical positions and after he won

42:06

one such game, Veselin

42:11

didn't want anything to do with

42:13

that anymore. Even though

42:15

he played many, many fine

42:18

technical games, he's obviously

42:22

very capable of it. But during that

42:24

match something happened in a way, like got into

42:26

his head and I think it's very possible

42:29

that somehow

42:31

the way somebody sits behind the boards, something

42:33

that he radiated, I've played against both and

42:37

with Napo,

42:38

yeah, there's a lot of pressure, you feel

42:41

a lot of pressure when he plays fast.

42:44

You've seen the looks that he gives. I mean, I

42:46

got a lot of weird

42:49

looks from him when I was playing him during

42:51

the game for obviously correct

42:53

reasons also. But he really radiates

42:56

that. So there's a lot of pressure coming

42:59

from him. From Ding, you feel that

43:01

less.

43:02

But also sometimes when you

43:04

play a

43:06

quiet person like Ding,

43:08

it can also be intimidating anyway, because you feel

43:10

like, well, now I'm doing well, but

43:13

he's sitting there like nothing's

43:15

going on. I had the same with Adams, always, Mickey Adams.

43:19

You could not see on his face if he's winning or losing.

43:21

There was no difference. And you

43:24

would try to read something and you just don't get anything.

43:27

So

43:29

it works both ways.

43:32

As to game 12, yeah, I would refer to

43:34

what we spoke about earlier, that it's very

43:36

hard for me to make a clear

43:38

conclusion as to why that all happened.

43:42

But it could very well be that Ding was at that moment

43:45

radiating something that had an

43:47

impact.

43:48

But I think that it's

43:50

still some psychological

43:53

slash chess

43:54

reason why that all unfolded.

43:57

Yeah, that

43:58

would be that would be.

43:59

be my guess as well. With

44:02

Ding in the press conference yesterday,

44:04

he was asked about Rook g6. And even

44:06

then it was striking to me because he wasn't describing

44:09

the emotions of the moment. He wasn't saying

44:11

like, I decided to go for it. He

44:13

said, like,

44:14

I was trying to get out of check. Basically, like,

44:17

you know, I needed to get out of check.

44:19

I think he did mention something like when you when

44:21

you get a chance, you should try

44:23

to take it something like that. But but I thought

44:25

it was that was also not really,

44:27

I mean, it wasn't really even a chance in my

44:30

I mean, no, at least nobody saw it as a chance.

44:33

I'm sure that nine out of 10 top players

44:35

would have repeated there. Like

44:38

I said, that Russian commentary,

44:41

they assumed the game had ended because they

44:43

were repeating a couple of times and they thought, Okay, this is

44:46

this draw. I mean, nobody's gonna gonna

44:48

continue. But so so yeah,

44:50

he created a chance out of nowhere, essentially.

44:53

And I like that when he

44:55

it's true when he was asked about it. He

44:57

didn't, I think see it himself as a as

45:00

a special moment. He just I just

45:02

I just, and

45:04

I think that that

45:05

that shows a bit his his character, I think he

45:08

just yeah, he

45:10

just to him, it was completely normal what

45:12

he what he did. That's probably why he's world champion

45:14

now. Yeah. All right,

45:16

well, we got to take another break. And then when we're back,

45:18

we're going to discuss everyone's favorite topic, world

45:21

championship match formats.

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45:56

And we are back in Irwin as I alluded to

45:59

people love to debate

45:59

this. I had tweeted out yesterday

46:02

that I've, you know, I'm on

46:04

the record as not being against rapid playoffs.

46:07

I think they're basically a necessary

46:09

evil for the most part, although

46:11

I don't mind the idea of going back

46:14

to where the defending champion needs

46:16

to be beaten to lose his title so that there's

46:19

more of an imbalance in the match. But I

46:21

wasn't even though I was excited to watch

46:23

a blitz playoff to me, it felt not

46:26

right when it looked like we were heading towards

46:28

a playoff. I know you're

46:30

someone who loves chess history and the

46:32

long sweep of classical

46:35

matches. So where do you stand on?

46:37

Like, how did you feel watching the playoff yesterday?

46:39

In terms

46:40

of the format? I think it's

46:42

a necessary evil. I mean, they

46:44

extended the

46:48

matches with two and we play 14 games

46:50

now. So there's enough

46:52

time to make a difference in

46:55

those games. It's in a way a miracle.

46:57

So if you see how the match progressed, the

46:59

final score was 77. Yeah. I mean,

47:02

it was so crazy that at some point

47:05

I was sure somebody is going to run

47:07

away with it. Yeah.

47:09

An interesting

47:12

idea. I always felt it was interesting

47:14

idea at least is to start with

47:17

the tiebreak before the classical

47:20

games. So you play four rapid

47:22

games

47:23

and then you know at the end

47:25

of the match that in case of a 77,

47:28

the one who won the four rapid games

47:30

wins. But I also know the people

47:33

who are against that, they don't like that

47:35

it starts with rapid. It feels a bit old

47:38

and there's something to say for that as well. But I do

47:40

like that

47:41

if you

47:42

start with those rapid

47:45

games and you have a winner on day

47:47

one of the match, then after

47:49

that you will always have somebody leading the

47:51

match. So even if you make 14

47:55

draws, somebody will always be leading. So there will

47:57

always be a story because

47:59

now we very lucky that we had

48:01

a great match,

48:02

but we also had matches that we were really having

48:05

a tough time selling it to a big

48:08

audience. But in this case, you will always

48:10

have a story that will always be someone leading, always

48:12

somebody who has to win. And

48:15

that could, I think, be interesting. But since

48:19

this idea has been around for a while already,

48:21

I doubt that it will ever be implemented. But I

48:23

always thought it was an interesting idea. In

48:25

general, of course, yeah, like you say, I'm a big

48:28

fan of classical chess. I like those

48:30

numbers you mentioned earlier that I also

48:32

saw somewhere

48:32

570,000. Oh, wow. Maybe that includes Fide because

48:35

that might have been just

48:37

that. Yeah,

48:42

by Tonya, the Norwegian.

48:45

I think I saw him tweeting something about

48:48

that. So huge numbers for the last day of all

48:52

of the match. So in that sense, there is hope for classical chess,

48:54

I think.

48:56

But this could

48:58

be potentially an idea

49:01

to start with the tiebreaker. I wouldn't be against

49:03

it.

49:04

And what about going to blitz

49:06

after four rapid games? I personally, yeah.

49:09

Maybe they need the rest of the day. Some people

49:11

said yes, some people said no. They said in tennis

49:13

when it's tied. And apologies, I don't remember who

49:15

said this on Twitter. But they said in tennis when

49:17

it's tied, they just keep going. And maybe they

49:19

just need to keep going and rapid. But I felt

49:21

like, OK, maybe after four games, you

49:23

play maybe slightly faster or you

49:25

wrap it up and do it again the next day. But other

49:28

people are saying just keep going. But do you feel it should go

49:30

to blitz after four rapid games?

49:33

Yeah, I haven't really

49:36

given a lot of thought to this. But yeah,

49:38

to me, deciding it

49:40

in blitz is definitely very unsatisfactory.

49:43

Yeah, I really would not have been happy

49:45

to see

49:47

blitz.

49:49

But then again, I maybe I'm old fashioned in

49:52

this because when I speak with new generation of

49:54

players,

49:55

they probably consider this

49:57

to be an opinion of Dijak I

50:02

don't know, maybe it's just the way we're

50:05

supposed to be headed. I

50:07

can

50:10

be flexible about these things. Personally,

50:12

the longer

50:14

the time controls,

50:16

the better to me. So

50:20

if they would next time say we continue

50:22

with rapid until there's a decision, also

50:24

fine. Also fine with me.

50:27

Blitz feels wrong. Yeah, it

50:29

feels very wrong. Yeah. I enjoy

50:32

a Blitz spectacle as much as the next guy. I love

50:34

the FIDE World in rapid in Blitz, but it's just

50:37

so far removed from classic. Yeah,

50:39

and of course, we have the World Rapids

50:42

Championship. We have the World Blitz Championship. So

50:44

it's already a

50:45

bit disturbing that we

50:47

also decide the classical World Championship essentially

50:51

with rapid. So

50:55

it's not ideal right now, but yeah,

50:58

it is what it is, I think.

51:00

Yeah, and again, very, very

51:03

entertaining. I mean, obviously, it was in

51:05

Kazakhstan, so that's an issue. I do feel

51:07

that they could do more to have more events on

51:09

weekends. They could do, I mean, they did

51:11

have the tiebreak on a Sunday, which is good, and

51:14

the final match on a Saturday. But

51:17

I did prefer when they, in the previous

51:19

match, they staggered the schedule, so there were always games

51:21

on Saturday and Sunday. So

51:24

I think small tweaks like that would be good and

51:26

maybe a few more rapid tiebreaks.

51:28

But it seems like this match, especially

51:31

given the lack of enthusiasm going in, was

51:33

reasonably successful.

51:35

That's definitely how I'm also thinking.

51:37

It's a small note that I think they changed

51:39

the schedule

51:42

in the way that the final 14th game and

51:45

the tiebreak are in one weekend. So I

51:47

think that was a very good decision. In

51:49

the past, they had the 14th game, then a rest day,

51:54

and then the tiebreak, which was a bit of

51:56

a stretch, I think, and this felt better. Yeah,

52:00

to come to your question about Carlson,

52:02

okay, it's of course a great pity still

52:05

to me that he decided not to

52:07

defend his title.

52:09

It just devalues the whole thing a

52:11

little bit. But having

52:13

said that, I mean,

52:15

it was a great match. I did

52:17

not,

52:20

I didn't anticipate that I would enjoy it to this extent.

52:23

Same here. For me, it was a very, it

52:25

was a regular World Championship. I saw it as such,

52:27

and ding is to me a true World Champion.

52:30

We had in the past,

52:33

actually many moments where the

52:35

strongest player was not the world champion.

52:38

And that's something that we are

52:40

not really used to anymore because since 2013,

52:43

we had Magnus as a world champion. He was the strongest

52:45

player, and we kind of quickly

52:48

got used to that. But in many sports,

52:51

the world champion is not necessarily the best

52:53

player. And

52:55

I think they can easily live together.

52:58

In fact, I think Magnus was the

53:00

strongest player in the world from about 2009, 2010.

53:03

And he himself only started to

53:06

fight for the championship three, four years later,

53:08

until 2013, he played with Vichy when

53:11

he was already clearly the higher rated player.

53:15

And we didn't feel that was

53:17

a bad thing. Vichy was a very worthy world champion as

53:19

well,

53:20

despite that Magnus was already the stronger player.

53:23

So I think, I

53:25

don't think, I'm still confident that the

53:27

world championship will remain a big

53:29

event and a very relevant

53:32

event.

53:33

And who knows, maybe Magnus

53:35

will like to try to play against Ding.

53:38

Maybe he'll come back to

53:40

play against Ding. That would be great, of course.

53:42

Yeah, it would. Yeah, speaking of Vichy, he tweeted,

53:44

it's impossible to praise both players enough. Even

53:47

today, they went at it with full energy and

53:49

the fourth game was so draining. However,

53:51

Ding survived so many setbacks and saved

53:53

his best for last. Yeah, and on the

53:55

topic of Magnus, I mean, it sounded like he was watching

53:57

based on his tweet about praising.

53:59

self-pinning Rg6.

54:02

So maybe it will pique his interest. But I

54:05

mean,

54:06

Magnus obviously, as you say, his place

54:08

is secure, but the idea of how

54:11

wide open the next candidates would be is also

54:13

interesting to me. And whoever emerges

54:16

from that, unless Ding

54:18

sort of finds another gear, obviously

54:20

he's number three on the live ratings, he's

54:23

likely to be a favorite given his experience.

54:25

But with so many young up and coming players, it feels

54:28

like it's almost guaranteed to be a

54:31

pretty competitive match.

54:33

Yeah, I mean, it's going to be interesting. First of all,

54:36

well, let's for now assume that Carlson is

54:39

not going to come back anytime soon into the

54:41

into the cycle, because if he would, then of course, he's

54:44

immediately favorite to qualify and

54:46

win it.

54:47

But

54:50

let's say if that's not the case,

54:52

then it gets very interesting for the other top players, because

54:54

all the other top players know that now they have a very

54:56

serious shot. Yeah.

54:58

And it I mean, before, they would be heavy

55:01

underdog against Magnus.

55:03

But I'm sure if you ask Fabiano,

55:06

Corona, if he could, if

55:09

he would be able to defeat any of the two players that

55:11

played here, he would be

55:12

very confident about not that he would

55:14

guarantee you win. Right. But Fabiano,

55:17

at his best would be very

55:20

dangerous for both Ding and

55:22

and and and Naples. So

55:25

yeah, I think it's in a way very motivating

55:28

for the other top players as

55:30

well, because they really feel that they have a shot now.

55:33

And it's it's it's very hard. Like

55:36

if you on the top of my head, I mean, Karvana,

55:39

Anish, I think is also not

55:41

to be underestimated in this cycle. Furuja

55:45

is a bit of a it's a bit unclear. He doesn't play so

55:47

much, of course, but he's, of course, also definitely

55:50

very much out there still.

55:53

Then Napo, I mean, one,

55:55

two candidates, so it cannot be excluded

55:57

for for a third one either.

55:59

Yeah, I think

56:01

those are the four that I would put

56:03

on my shortlist.

56:05

And still, you have others

56:07

as well, of course, it could easily do it.

56:09

Yeah.

56:11

And then you have all the young bucks who tend

56:14

not to be in the top 10, but in

56:16

the top 25, top 30 and potentially rising. For

56:19

the young, it will mostly be about

56:22

qualifying for the candidates. I mean, it's not so easy for them

56:24

to get in. I mean, they have Isle of Man, of course,

56:26

they have the World Cup.

56:27

So you might see some,

56:30

well, surprising, I'm not even sure it's surprising,

56:32

but some surprising qualifiers

56:34

from there.

56:36

But it's

56:39

a bit harder for them to do it. I

56:41

guess they have less invitations. So also, for

56:44

example, Anish will play a lot of

56:46

classical events this year. So you will get

56:48

very high in these tour standings, which

56:50

gives them a chance of qualifying as

56:53

well.

56:54

And

56:56

yeah, it's

56:58

a bit hard to predict. But

57:00

those four names I mentioned earlier, I think

57:04

they have every reason to be

57:07

really going for it right

57:09

now.

57:10

Yeah. And then you mentioned the World

57:12

Cup. Of course, Magnus loves the World Cup. So

57:14

it's going to be especially messy. It was already messy

57:16

when he's the world champion. But if he plays in

57:18

it and there's candidate spots on the line and he doesn't want

57:20

to play in the candidates, it's

57:22

going to be even more. He was already ruining

57:25

people's dreams there when he was

57:27

a world champion. Yeah. Now it's going to

57:29

ruin them even, not even

57:32

eager to qualify for the title anymore. But

57:35

he does want to win it maybe. So

57:38

it's possible that he will again play it,

57:40

wouldn't rule it out at all. Before,

57:43

I always felt it's a bit weird, by the way, that he

57:45

was allowed to participate. And

57:48

it's the same thing in Isle of

57:50

Man, the Grand Swiss.

57:51

I also thought he should not have been allowed to play there. I mean, he's

57:53

the world champion and

57:55

he influences the cycle. And that's, by

57:58

the way, not his mistake.

57:59

right

58:00

in the rules. I think I understand that

58:03

he likes to play them.

58:04

So if he's allowed to play

58:06

them then then to play it is of course fine.

58:08

But but I think that from

58:11

the perspective of Peter, that should not have been been

58:14

been allowed. But now that he's no normal champion, he

58:16

can play anything he wants. Ground

58:18

Swiss World Cup.

58:21

And he can he can

58:23

try to win them again.

58:25

Yeah, yeah. And on the topic of the World

58:27

Cup, I mean, again, I love it as a fan, but I have

58:29

heard the criticism raised that it's

58:32

a very mixed format. I mean, it's a short classical

58:34

match. And then it goes to these faster games. So

58:36

I have heard it mentioned that it's not even the most natural

58:39

fit to be a qualifier for the candidates. So

58:41

maybe the solution would be to have other methods

58:43

into the candidates. And then Magnus can play that

58:46

to his heart's content.

58:48

Yeah, it's a it's a bit more random

58:50

if I think was the main

58:55

objection against the

58:57

World Cup. And

59:00

on the other hand, yeah, I think if you win something like

59:03

the World Cup, it's a nice way to

59:05

get in. I have no objections against the World Cup. I think it's a nice

59:07

event.

59:08

Everybody likes to follow it. It's super

59:10

strong always. So I personally

59:13

don't have anything against the World Cup being

59:15

being a qualifier for

59:17

for for the candidates. And also kind

59:19

of like even that there are different ways to qualify

59:23

for the

59:25

candidates. So I have no objection

59:27

against the World Cup being

59:29

one of them.

59:31

Yeah. Okay,

59:33

well, Erwin, I mean, amazing match. So

59:36

any any final thoughts about like,

59:38

you know, how we might look back on this years down

59:40

the road? Like, how do you think this will be viewed? No,

59:43

I just hope and I'm sure that will be the case.

59:46

I hope the ding will not change at all that he will remain the

59:48

same

59:50

person

59:51

that he is. I

59:53

don't see him. I'm very happy for him. I mean,

59:56

of course, my conversations to to young,

59:58

obviously, but I'm I'm I'm I'm the same.

59:59

I'm very happy for Ding. As

1:00:03

he mentioned in the press conference, he started playing

1:00:05

it for 26 years, tried to

1:00:09

reach his goals. He managed now. I

1:00:11

thought it was a beautiful story. It was a beautiful

1:00:14

match, extremely fighting. After

1:00:16

a few days, I thought Ding was completely done. Well,

1:00:20

the thing is, it's funny, sorry, we asked

1:00:23

him and I mentioned it earlier to do a

1:00:25

live commentary

1:00:27

at the Max

1:00:51

game.

1:00:57

I think it's a very good promotion for classical chess.

1:00:59

I'm looking forward to the

1:01:01

next

1:01:07

cycle. I mean,

1:01:09

get the dates, World Cup, Grand

1:01:11

Switch. We get a lot of brilliant events coming

1:01:14

up.

1:01:15

I'm of course rooting for Anish,

1:01:17

obviously, but I think everybody will try

1:01:19

to chip in and get

1:01:21

to the next match.

1:01:23

It would be great to see Anish in the World Championship.

1:01:26

Let me ask you, were there any other highlights from

1:01:29

Jan Timmons' speech? Any other stories

1:01:31

you could share? It

1:01:34

was just a very

1:01:36

nice day. The Max Center

1:01:38

is not very big.

1:01:39

We hit 30

1:01:41

people. It's completely full, but there

1:01:44

were 50 people. So

1:01:46

people had to stand. The match was very much followed in the Netherlands.

1:01:49

We were still very much

1:01:54

a chess country. A lot of chess

1:01:56

fans in the Netherlands. So many

1:01:58

people came. Jan is of course a legend.

1:01:59

especially of course in our country

1:02:02

but in the entire chess world so everybody

1:02:04

liked to see what he had to say. It was

1:02:07

a very lively day, people shouting

1:02:09

suggestions, yelled, refuting them, throwing

1:02:12

in some nice anecdotes from his own career.

1:02:15

Of course he played a world championship match himself in 1993

1:02:17

so he

1:02:18

has a ton of experience. So he

1:02:20

was really the perfect person to

1:02:23

speak about that. So we were very happy that

1:02:25

he wanted to come.

1:02:28

So that was a great that was a great day. He showed some studies

1:02:30

of his. He's a fantastic composer.

1:02:33

He's extremely

1:02:35

productive, makes one

1:02:37

brilliant study after another.

1:02:39

So I would definitely recommend

1:02:42

listeners and viewers these days

1:02:46

to check out his studies because he makes the most

1:02:49

amazing things. And

1:02:51

yeah, like I said, we were very happy

1:02:53

to have him and to experience the world championship

1:02:56

together with him. Excellent,

1:02:58

yeah, absolute legend. And Erwin, what's

1:03:00

going on with you? Do you have any tournaments coming up? Are

1:03:02

you busy with the chessable course? What's

1:03:05

on deck for 2023? I am

1:03:07

making a chessable course on the Slav which

1:03:09

got a bit delayed, some

1:03:11

things came up. But I

1:03:14

am gonna definitely finish that

1:03:16

somewhere I think in the next three months or

1:03:18

so. So I hope

1:03:21

people will be looking out

1:03:23

for that. And actually

1:03:25

two days from now,

1:03:26

I'm going to Malmö.

1:03:28

Not playing there, I'm doing commentary.

1:03:30

Oh, fun. I did that last year as well.

1:03:32

And it's very fun. It's

1:03:35

a great tournament, a nice mix between

1:03:37

young and older, well,

1:03:39

experienced players, I should say.

1:03:42

And it's a very nice field, very nice mix.

1:03:45

Like I said, young top players up and coming

1:03:48

and

1:03:49

somewhat experienced players. Then I'll

1:03:51

go with Anish to Norway,

1:03:54

to Norway chess, to Stavanger,

1:03:57

which is extremely strong this year. I

1:04:00

think most of the top 10 is there. So it's maybe

1:04:02

even the strongest event of the year. I'm

1:04:05

not sure, but it must be up there

1:04:07

with one of the strongest lineups.

1:04:10

And then I will go to Prague to

1:04:12

play myself in the chess festival,

1:04:15

playing the challenges there and looking

1:04:17

very much forward to that because I always heard a

1:04:19

lot of good stories of that tournament. And

1:04:23

so I got to play, get to play there this year myself,

1:04:26

looking forward to that. Dutch Championship comes after that. I have to

1:04:28

defend my title. Which

1:04:30

is going to be very hard because Anish Giri is playing

1:04:32

this year as well as Jorunn van Ferei. So it's

1:04:34

going to be very strong Dutch Championship.

1:04:36

This year the Dutch Federation has

1:04:39

a Jubilee, 150 years.

1:04:41

So yeah, they really try to

1:04:43

create a very strong Dutch Championship. And

1:04:46

it looks like they will succeed with Anish

1:04:48

and Jorunn participating.

1:04:49

So that's very exciting as well. So yeah, plenty of things

1:04:52

coming up.

1:04:53

Yeah, one more exciting than the next. That sounds

1:04:55

awesome. Yes, yes. Excellent.

1:04:58

All right. Well, Erwin, really appreciate you

1:05:00

sharing your perspective of this unforgettable

1:05:02

match. We look forward to

1:05:04

you, if Twitter still exists, for you

1:05:07

popping up on Twitter again for the next World Championship.

1:05:11

I will. On the next Championship, I'll be here again.

1:05:13

Yeah. Excellent. All right. Thanks again,

1:05:15

Erwin. Really appreciate it. Thanks for

1:05:18

having me.