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Rock is lit. I'm really

1:00

excited about this special episode of Rock

1:03

is Lit. It's the first for the

1:05

podcast, actually. A panel discussion with four

1:07

amazing artists and artists. I'm excited to

1:09

see the first of the four. I'm

1:14

excited to see the first of the four. I'm excited

1:17

to see the first of the four. I'm

1:19

excited to see the first of the four.

1:23

It's the first for the podcast, actually.

1:25

A panel discussion with four amazing women

1:27

rock novelists, hailing from Canada to Chicago

1:30

to LA and back to my neck

1:32

of the woods here in Asheville, North

1:34

Carolina. Kirsty McKenzie, Mallory

1:36

Smart, Claire Hopple, and Rock is

1:39

Lit veteran Jessamyn Violet are joining

1:41

me to talk about our experiences

1:44

and thoughts about writing fiction about

1:46

musicians. Jessamyn

1:48

Violet is a writer and musician out

1:50

of Venice Beach, California. Her

1:52

debut novel, Secret Rules to Be in a

1:55

Rock Star, was published in April, 2023 by

1:58

Three Rooms Press. Short

2:00

fiction can be found in

2:02

plowshoes, with Angelis, 805 Art

2:05

plus Lit Journal, and more.

2:07

She's also the drummer for the psych

2:09

rock band MediClone. Mallory

2:12

Smart is a Chicago-based writer and

2:14

editor-in-chief of Modlin House. Some

2:17

people even call her the only living

2:19

girl in Chicago. Mallory

2:21

is the host of the podcast

2:23

Textual Healing and co-host That Hara

2:26

Cast with Dimitri Semerov. Her

2:28

latest books, I Keep My Visions To

2:30

Myself, just came out from within X-books.

2:34

Kirsty McKenzie is the author of

2:36

Better to Bag, as well as

2:39

editor-in-chief of Major Savage magazine. Her

2:41

work has been published in HAD, Rejection

2:43

Letters, Transcact, Auto Focus,

2:46

Modlin House, Identity Theory,

2:48

and Elsewhere. Claire

2:50

Hopple is the author of six books and

2:52

the fiction editor at X-Ray. Her

2:55

stories have appeared in Widley, Volume

2:57

1 Brooklyn, Forever Mag, and others.

3:00

She grew up in the woods of Pennsylvania

3:02

and currently lives in Asheville, North Carolina. Her

3:05

next book, Take It Personally, is

3:07

forthcoming from Stalking Horse Test in February

3:10

2025. Each

3:12

of these four talented authors brings a

3:15

unique perspective to the conversation. From

3:17

the creative sparks that ignite our

3:19

own work to the cultural impacts

3:21

of rock novels in general, we'll

3:23

navigate the winding paths of character

3:25

development and uncovering the challenges of

3:28

breathing life into fictional musicians while

3:30

honoring the essence of their real-life

3:32

counterparts. We'll delve into

3:35

the stigma surrounding rock novels,

3:37

dissecting perceptions and stereotypes to

3:39

reveal the nuanced portrayals crafted by

3:41

these talented authors. And, of

3:43

course, no discussion on writing

3:45

fiction about musicians would be complete

3:48

without reflecting on current trends and

3:50

the evolution of the genre, including

3:52

the explosive success of Taylor Jenkins

3:54

Reed's rock novel Daisy Jones and

3:56

the Six. and

4:00

turn off the volume as Rock is lit

4:02

takes you on a journey through the pages

4:04

of Rock Literature where every word is a

4:06

poem and every story a kick-ass concert.

4:20

Hello everybody. Thanks so much for joining me on

4:22

what I know is going to be a really

4:25

fun conversation. I'm so glad you're here. What's

4:28

up? I'm here to

4:30

be here. And

4:32

special thanks to Jessamyn for bringing

4:34

my attention to this subject and

4:36

getting the ball rolling on this.

4:38

So kudos to you. Well,

4:41

Mallory came to me with the idea and

4:44

I just ran with it to the best

4:46

person for the job in my opinion. Thank

4:50

you for having us, Kristy, seriously.

4:53

Absolutely. It's a great topic and it's something

4:55

that we all know a little something about.

4:57

So I think the best way

4:59

to get started is for each of you

5:01

to share a little bit about yourself and

5:04

what inspired or inspires you to

5:06

write about music and musicians in

5:08

your fiction. So Jessamyn, you want

5:11

to start? Sure.

5:15

I am both

5:17

a writer and a musician. I actually

5:22

played piano since I was a kid, but when

5:24

I started writing my first book, I picked up

5:26

Drumstick and joined a

5:29

band and it was

5:32

Love at First Drum. I

5:36

was writing about musicians for my first

5:38

novel anyway because I've always been obsessed

5:40

with equally obsessed. You

5:43

can't really write a lot

5:45

of songs about writing, but

5:47

you can write fiction

5:50

about musicians. So for me, it's

5:52

been dual passion since I was

5:54

born. I played piano. I

5:57

was obsessed with classical music and the Beatles.

6:00

and all the stuff as a young child. And

6:02

then I was DJ at

6:04

several college radio stations and

6:07

then wrote about live

6:10

shows and interviewed musicians for magazines

6:12

for years. And then it was

6:15

this natural progression. Of

6:17

course, when I wrote my first book, I wanted it

6:19

to be about music and musicians. So

6:22

my name is Kirsty and I wanted to, I

6:26

guess for inspiration it's twofold. One

6:29

of them is that musicians

6:32

lead very uprooted lives.

6:35

And my life is very rooted. And so

6:37

there's something about the lore of bands and

6:42

musicians and the way that they're kind of

6:44

tumbleweeds and they're just sort of blowing through

6:46

towns and they're constantly

6:48

on tour. That's really fascinating to me

6:50

and it's a life not led for

6:52

me. And so there's something

6:55

about that that just inspires

6:57

me, makes me wanna pursue

7:00

it in my writing. And I

7:03

also like sort of writing

7:06

about transitory spaces or

7:08

I guess you could call them liminal spaces. And I feel

7:10

like places like

7:12

airports or hotels

7:15

or bus depot, things like that.

7:19

I'm really interested in the way that that

7:21

sort of interacts with identity and how identity

7:23

can be very fluid in those

7:25

spaces. So those

7:28

two things intersect for me. And the

7:30

other one is sort of

7:32

a pet peeve of mine. I don't like it when

7:34

writers write about being writers. So I

7:37

just like the lateral way

7:39

of doing it which is

7:41

like navel gazing as an

7:43

artist by writing about the

7:46

progression of an artist's life in

7:49

the terms of a musician. And I feel like I

7:52

can still do that like navel gazing thing of like

7:54

I'm writing about being an artist but

7:56

I'm not writing about being a writer. So

7:58

I wound up going with me. musicians instead.

8:00

So that's where the inspiration comes from.

8:05

Honestly, I'm kind of

8:07

a wannabe musician. I kind of was

8:09

when I was younger. I attempted to

8:11

do like a riot girl band. It

8:13

was horrible. We were

8:16

called classy ladies. And when

8:18

I was done with that, I actually would just

8:20

hang out with friends on a curb and we

8:22

would just like be playing mandolin and guitar. And

8:24

by curb, I mean like a 24 hour parking

8:27

lot outside of a Denny's. And

8:29

that heavily inspired me to do

8:31

this because as a writer, I

8:34

started getting very nostalgic for that time

8:36

for when you can create for yourself

8:39

and not just the audience. And that's

8:41

very much what my book is about.

8:44

I'm probably the least qualified to be

8:46

here in the sense that I don't

8:48

actually know that much about

8:51

music besides being

8:53

in chorus, you know, in high school and

8:56

living in Nashville for about six years and

8:59

just accidentally befriending a ton of

9:01

musicians in the process because

9:05

everybody in Nashville is a musician.

9:08

You just need to go to even the frozen

9:10

yogurt place. I'm

9:13

so sad had somebody playing at

9:15

all times. Like Kirstie,

9:18

I also use

9:21

writing about musicians as a way

9:23

to sort of talk about writing without talking

9:25

about writing cause it's a pet peeve of

9:27

mine as well. But

9:29

specifically for the novel that's

9:32

coming out in February through Socking Horse

9:36

Press. Congratulations. Thank

9:39

you. It's called Take

9:41

It Personally. And it was

9:43

a more of a plot device,

9:46

a way of moving things

9:49

forward and holding suspense, cause

9:52

she, the main character goes on tour in

9:55

the middle of that book, but

9:58

it's also a way of, of addressing

10:03

imposter syndrome, which I think we can

10:05

all relate to no matter what we're

10:07

doing. And

10:10

it was also a

10:12

foil against the

10:14

other main character who was

10:17

an actual celebrity. The

10:20

main character is not and is following

10:23

a celebrity. And so it was a

10:25

way to just show

10:27

the stark contrast between their lives

10:29

and how one is enamored

10:31

with the concept of celebrity, but it's

10:34

just not there. And it's following, it's

10:36

doing a sort of a private investigator

10:38

type deal, amateur

10:40

private investigator job. So

10:44

hopefully that made sense. I

10:59

have a big puzzle of seriously poor

11:01

encounters that have significantly

11:04

influenced your writing in this genre

11:06

that anybody can jump in. I

11:09

mean, it's hard to say one, you

11:11

know, but I will say like,

11:14

something that really got me going

11:16

was that weirdly, like my

11:19

dad is a big nerd, you

11:21

know, and he has always worked

11:23

at weird companies where I don't know what

11:25

to say really does, you know, but when

11:27

right before I

11:29

moved to California, it was an interesting

11:32

situation because he went to business school

11:34

with the owner of Gibson

11:36

guitar. So he

11:40

got a job as COO of

11:42

Gibson guitar, like, you

11:44

know, a few months before I moved

11:47

to LA. And I was

11:49

going blind, I knew some people from Emerson

11:51

there. But like, when I got

11:53

there, he kind of like, plugged

11:55

me into some Gibson people from the

11:58

start. And it was a

12:01

huge, hugely shaped the

12:04

plot of my first book because

12:06

I was thrown into this like,

12:09

you know, crazy, you know,

12:12

A-list situation by going to

12:14

these charity events and shows

12:17

and meeting all these major league

12:19

players as a little bright eyed 22, 23

12:21

year old. And, you

12:25

know, I had some, you

12:27

know, situations arise that like, I

12:29

loosely borrowed from in the

12:32

book. And so I think,

12:35

you know, a combination of the

12:37

people that I met through having that weird,

12:40

it was such an anomaly because

12:42

he only lasted that job for nine

12:44

months. It was, it's a hot seat,

12:47

as they say, like very high turnover,

12:49

hard, hard to

12:51

handle position. So it

12:53

felt like just a gift from the

12:55

universe. Because if that hadn't been the case,

12:57

my first books content

13:00

would be hugely different. So

13:03

living in Nashville for a little while,

13:06

it was just pretty

13:08

incredible to walk down the street

13:10

and see famous musicians at

13:13

your local Mexican restaurant getting a

13:15

margarita alongside you walking into Trader

13:17

Joe's and seeing Taylor Swift. And

13:19

it was

13:21

just a wild time to be there.

13:24

A lot of people

13:26

were moving from California at that time.

13:29

And as someone who

13:31

grew up in the middle of nowhere

13:33

in the woods in Pennsylvania, literally whittling

13:35

sticks as a child with my Swiss

13:37

army knife, it was quite an

13:40

experience. So I think that that

13:42

did shape me a little bit as I was writing

13:45

this last novel. Quite

13:49

honestly, I started writing influenced

13:53

by my favorite band and their

13:56

lore a little bit. And I was writing scenes

14:01

I needed to get going in my writing.

14:03

So I was using prompts,

14:05

writer's prompts, and just writing these little scenes,

14:07

and these two characters just sort of popped

14:10

out. So they were very,

14:12

very loosely based on my favorite

14:14

band. But I didn't

14:16

have any personal encounters. I did have some musicians

14:19

read it after the fact.

14:22

And I feel, we'll

14:25

get into this a bit later, but I definitely feel a

14:27

bit of imposter syndrome writing about musicians.

14:29

But yeah, no

14:31

personal encounters for me. No

14:33

personal encounters, no romances even.

14:35

No, no, not even.

14:39

I had a very, very, very brief

14:42

fling with the guitarist from

14:44

like my hometown,

14:46

but that happened after

14:49

the book was written. Are

15:02

there any specific techniques or

15:04

rituals that any of you

15:06

employ when you're drafting? Like,

15:08

do you listen to music while you're writing? Because

15:10

I can't, I have to have complete silence. I

15:13

can't listen to it while I'm writing, even though

15:15

it inspires, it usually inspires what

15:17

I'm writing. Well,

15:20

I host textual healing, which

15:22

is almost devoted entirely to what people

15:25

listen to while they're writing. So

15:27

I actually make a playlist for

15:30

what I intend to write. That's my big deal. But

15:33

this is going to be like

15:35

the dorkiest thing. I turn kpop on,

15:37

repeat, because it just kind of blends

15:39

through. And yeah, so that gets you

15:41

going for me. And

15:43

also you're writing or is it before? It's

15:46

a while I'm writing beforehand, all kind

15:48

of jam out. I think

15:50

I've shared the playlist I made this book with

15:53

a lot of people. So

15:55

yeah, it's kpop like

15:57

your white noise. Yeah, it

15:59

is. I do that or sometimes

16:01

I do rain sounds. That's like really soothing

16:03

for me. Hey

16:07

Pantheon listeners. Christian Swain here taking

16:09

a break from listening to a

16:11

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17:23

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19:17

I have to listen to music and

19:20

it has to be something that I actually

19:22

wanted to have lyrics, but

19:24

nothing too distracting. I pretty

19:28

much default to three Fleetwood Mac

19:31

albums, all deep tracks, none of

19:33

the hits that everyone's

19:35

heard a million times. Mallory knows this.

19:38

She's also Fleetwood Mac. But

19:43

really anything that has a somewhat

19:45

chill vibe but is still expressing

19:47

the great deal of emotion at

19:49

the same time. I

19:54

also make a playlist or like I'll

19:56

listen to things that are specific to

19:58

the genre of like the musician. and writing

20:01

about. So for my novel, Better

20:03

to Beg, it was about early-odds

20:05

garage bands and indie bands. And

20:08

so I listened to a lot of those early-odds

20:13

bands that were

20:15

very New York cool, I guess you

20:17

could say. So the Kills and the

20:19

White Stripes and the Strokes and LCD

20:21

Sound System, those

20:24

are all the national, all

20:26

those bands were really sort of pivotal

20:30

and for me, it becomes white

20:32

noise when I crank it as loud as I

20:34

possibly can and just sort

20:37

of use the energy of it

20:39

but zone out on the lyrics. And so there

20:42

are songs that I would just play continuously

20:44

on repeat sometimes during a certain scene. I

20:47

remember writing one scene, I

20:50

really liked the Hell or High Water soundtrack as

20:53

well because it's also like a road trip film

20:55

even though it's a heist and so I used

20:57

that. And I listened to Colter

20:59

Walls, the song he

21:01

does, I can't remember right now, it's a

21:03

pretty famous song but I listened to his

21:06

tune over and over and over again during one

21:08

specific scene. So that's my

21:10

mode as loud as it can possibly

21:12

go and sometimes obsessively on the same

21:14

track while I'm doing

21:16

it and specific to the time

21:18

and the genre to get the feel

21:21

for it. Are you

21:23

all doing Spotify playlists, Large

21:25

Hearted Boy playlists or are these

21:27

just personal playlists? I

21:30

did a Spotify playlist, two of them actually and

21:33

then also I was on Large Hearted Boy. Most

21:36

of my music centered around kind of like things

21:39

that make you feel like you're LA in night,

21:42

like you're just lost in the city wandering around

21:44

so I had a lot of Bob Seger, I

21:46

had some

21:48

sweet mac going on but a lot of ELO

21:50

as well for some reason. Yes, wow.

21:52

A lot of ELO. Telephone

21:56

line on repeat. picture,

22:00

Steve Buscemi putting on lipstick in

22:02

Billy Madison every time I hear that and

22:04

it makes me smile. What

22:07

are some

22:20

challenges to writing about music?

22:22

Because it's not always easy. I mean,

22:24

building characters who are supposed to be

22:26

famous, those of you who are actually writing about

22:29

real people and or

22:31

referencing music that nobody's heard of

22:33

can create a void

22:36

for readers. So how do you handle

22:38

that? What are some of the challenges

22:40

that you faced in writing about music?

22:44

Not being a musician is the main

22:46

one. I

22:48

guess the

22:51

thing that I wanted

22:54

to sort of get out of

22:56

the way was not writing

23:01

scenes that were primarily focused on

23:03

performance. And I felt like

23:05

in order to do it well, like

23:08

in order to write about musicians well, you

23:10

had to write about all the things around the music.

23:13

But not being a musician gave me a lot

23:15

of imposter syndrome because I was sort of like,

23:18

who am I to be writing this? And

23:20

I still get that sometimes. And I had

23:23

that feeling most acutely after releasing the book.

23:25

I'm still wrestling with it, especially

23:28

as musicians pick it up or people that are

23:30

in that industry. I've had agents

23:32

or musicians sort of like pick

23:35

it up and I'm a little bit nervous

23:37

for their response to it. But that's the

23:40

primary one is having such a

23:42

rooted life and only relying

23:45

so hard on research that I've

23:47

done or like rock

23:50

biographies that I've read over the years. That's more or

23:52

less what I'm relying on. It's just all the things

23:54

I've taken in. And I'm hoping that

23:57

I can sort of synthesize that with my

24:00

feelings about being an artist, especially being

24:02

an up and coming artist, and

24:05

make it, you know, as realistic

24:08

as I possibly can. But that's a

24:10

major challenge is not, not having ever

24:12

been in these sessions. Big ones. I

24:15

completely agree. I'm just gonna piggyback off

24:17

that answer. Because that's exactly how I

24:19

feel. And I think the

24:21

reason that it didn't maybe haunt me

24:23

as much is because I also wasn't

24:27

focused on the technical performance so

24:29

much, but more about what happened

24:32

before and

24:34

after various

24:36

shows. And all

24:39

of my characters are extremely

24:41

quirky. And so they're not

24:43

going to do things the

24:45

way that normal musicians would

24:48

anyway. And so that gave me a kind of freedom

24:50

amid the challenge, I think. Yeah,

24:53

I went slapstick with my, I was like, I'm

24:55

just gonna get out of this

24:58

by going slapstick comedy in a

25:00

lot of these scenarios. I

25:03

mean, I did the same thing too, where

25:05

I tried to leave performances out as much

25:07

as possible, because I feel like, as

25:10

a writer, it's really difficult to actually

25:12

describe music. I mean, if

25:14

you ask anybody, I feel like most

25:16

people would say that music actually transcends

25:19

language to a certain degree. So that

25:22

was a very big thing for me to deal

25:24

with. So yeah, I

25:26

kind of always kept the music

25:28

and the performances and the preferring

25:31

kept with the introspective nature of

25:33

the writer. Yeah, I think

25:35

that that's like, well

25:37

advised, you know, in my, in

25:40

my book, too, In Secret Rules to Me and Rockstar,

25:42

like, the main character goes

25:44

to LA to be in

25:46

a band, but they keep trying to rehearse,

25:49

but didn't actually even rehearse. So it's like,

25:52

kind of writing around

25:54

the actual performances and

25:57

focusing on the personality and the

25:59

drama. is way

26:01

more compelling, especially when it comes to

26:04

a fictional... Because if you're writing about

26:06

a famous band, you're writing about their

26:08

performance, everyone in RD can associate this

26:10

reading it like, oh, I can see

26:13

the singer doing that. Or

26:15

if I was to write about the last, the Kill

26:17

show I went to, it was like Billy

26:20

Idol was sitting two rows up and

26:23

Alton Mossart was very exhausted because it

26:25

was their last show of the whole

26:27

seven weeks they'd been

26:30

on the road. So she like collapsed on the

26:32

stage while dancing at one point. It was like,

26:34

wow. But

26:36

see, I can talk about the performance, everyone's interested.

26:39

But if I'm talking about this fictional performance of

26:41

a band, you know, no one's

26:44

gonna really care. So yeah, I was

26:46

definitely... That is

26:48

a challenge. And if I

26:50

was to write a sequel, I

26:52

would also have to kind of dance around that. And

26:55

your eyes just like kind of glaze over

26:58

because it's like you're using a whole other

27:00

section of your brain when you're

27:02

listening to music that

27:05

it's really hard to nail down with

27:07

words. I think another

27:10

challenge is, you know, just

27:12

veriting around the cliches of

27:14

being a musician, you

27:16

know, because there are certain people

27:18

have certain ideas. And but the

27:20

truth is, there's just all types

27:23

of musicians just like every other

27:25

role out there, you're not going to have

27:27

one type of person doing it. So I

27:30

mean, that comes to breaking down the stigma of

27:32

like what rock novels are, they're supposed to be

27:35

like crazy, sex drugs, rock

27:37

and roll type, always a male

27:39

singer. Right. I'm

27:41

getting the feeling that most of you

27:43

are writing about fictional bands. Do you

27:45

think that's harder than writing about an

27:48

actual musician? Because Jessamyn, you were

27:50

talking about if you write

27:52

about that musician and that particular

27:54

performance, everybody already knows what that

27:56

was like. So maybe it's

27:59

easier. easier to translate that or

28:01

to connect with the reader. And the

28:04

challenge then if you're writing

28:06

about a band or an artist that

28:08

nobody knows, is how do

28:10

you make them jump off

28:12

the page? How do you make people

28:14

fall in love with that musician when

28:16

they're not actually hearing the music? It's

28:18

just what you're creating on the page.

28:22

Absolutely. That's a huge,

28:25

huge challenge because that is

28:27

like the magnetism. The spell

28:30

of musicians is cast through you

28:32

watching them perform live, of course.

28:34

So there has to be

28:36

some mention of what they do that's special,

28:39

but they can. You can't

28:41

actually have the reader experience that

28:43

sort of thing. Which

28:46

is why it's cool when authors land

28:49

book deals along with record deals and

28:52

they can do fictional bands of their

28:54

characters. And they

28:57

get to be released simultaneously. I

29:10

remember, Jessamyn, when I met you and

29:12

I first interviewed you for Rock is

29:14

Lit, you mentioned that you

29:17

were having a hard... I mean, obviously you sold

29:19

the book by then it came out. But you

29:21

had had a hard time convincing some publishers to

29:23

take it on because of the stigma against

29:26

rock novels. Can you

29:28

talk a little bit more about your experience with

29:31

that or what your thoughts are about that stigma?

29:35

Yeah, I mean, I guess just

29:37

in the past, books

29:39

about music or musicians

29:42

haven't sold well, was

29:44

what I was told for years. Don't

29:48

put the performances in. I was told to

29:50

take the lyrics out. I'm

29:53

sitting in a place that I was

29:55

told to change characters, like vampires and

29:58

zombies to try them. Make

30:00

it more marketable things like that Because

30:04

I shopped my first book around for an

30:06

incredibly long time and it

30:08

went through several different agents It

30:10

was just a very very long nightmare

30:12

process But I still wanted

30:14

to stick with it because it was at

30:17

that point it's it's like you just you want to

30:19

see it through you put so much time and effort

30:21

into things but then you

30:24

know also there can be a shift in the

30:26

like Overall climate and it

30:28

seemed like all of a sudden YA

30:31

was up on an upswing queer

30:33

novels were up on upswing and

30:37

writing about musicians suddenly Getting

30:40

more popular so

30:43

a combination of those things and I found

30:46

you know very small press and things like

30:49

that and so

30:52

Yeah, I don't know. It's it's just

30:54

like and now that Daisy Jones is

30:56

hit I think you know they people

30:58

can't say that anymore and

31:02

They can't say that with a straight face because now there is

31:04

a bestseller. That's strictly

31:06

about musicians. It's

31:08

fiction So yeah, it

31:10

was it felt like a win, you know Like

31:14

the whole is a little wider wider now the crack

31:16

is a little wider And they

31:18

think to the Daisy Jones

31:20

succeeded so wildly because it was

31:23

about that the Periphery

31:25

of things that happened around the recording

31:27

like it's very much and she cribbed

31:29

from a very famous story From the

31:31

Fleetwood Mac rumors album. Uh-huh people love

31:33

that story people love that story the

31:35

same way that they love the

31:38

lore of musicians all the time any anyone who

31:40

is into

31:42

music history Loves

31:44

the personal stuff around the album as much

31:46

as they love the album itself. They love

31:48

the things that inform that and

31:51

so I think that Writing around

31:53

it helps break down the

31:55

stigma and creating lore and that goes

31:57

part and parcel to what you said

31:59

about making the characters interesting is like

32:01

all you have to do is think about

32:03

the kind of ups and

32:05

downs of a musician's life or the trajectory of

32:07

a musician's life and it's a little bit different

32:10

for all musicians but they still sort

32:13

of have these periods of time that you

32:15

can you can track and they

32:17

track very well in biographies and autobiographies

32:19

so why not in fiction and

32:22

we've seen that like Jessamyn was saying we've

32:24

seen it in the last two years they

32:26

can't say anymore with a

32:28

straight face that doesn't sell because there's a

32:30

market for it and Taylor Jenkins re-found it

32:33

and she found it with one of the

32:35

most famous stories of all time and we

32:37

ate it up we knew the story and

32:39

we ate it up anyway so I think

32:41

that I think that people love

32:44

being told those stories over and over and over

32:46

again just in different ways so I think that

32:49

that lends itself to breaking down

32:51

that stigma that we've seen is is

32:55

yeah it's shying away from just adulation

32:59

of like performance and just talking

33:01

about the gossip around it because

33:03

they lead very juicy lives and

33:05

often very messy lives and I

33:07

think that that's part of

33:09

the appeal it's part of the appeal. I

33:12

think a big part of it might also have to do

33:14

with Gen Z and TikTok and

33:17

how much they actually help like push

33:19

Daisy Jones. I'm

33:22

curious whether Daisy Jones would have

33:24

been as popular if her

33:26

previous book Seven Husbands

33:28

of Evelyn Hugo wasn't

33:31

as popular because that was

33:33

like a huge smash

33:35

hit that was optioned also

33:37

have any of you read it? No

33:39

but when I looked her up I looked up the

33:41

author and that was like what her like 11th novel

33:45

Daisy Jones was which is

33:47

crazy but yeah she puts us

33:49

all to shame and she does that

33:54

kind of like cribbing from famous

33:56

people's lives and turning

33:58

them into her own story. She

34:01

does that so well. Like

34:03

she does it in a way that you

34:07

sort of know and you're drawing

34:09

on your reference from pop culture

34:11

to feed the character that she's

34:13

making. But it's

34:16

also a brand new story. So she's kind

34:18

of perfected this, you know,

34:20

breezy beach read that

34:22

is sort of juicy and gossip-filled and draws

34:25

on these stories that you already know and

34:27

she tells them. Like she found a market

34:29

for it and it's clearly

34:31

exploded because she did, I think

34:33

Malibu Rising was kind of low-key

34:36

about a Frank Sinatra character and his

34:38

kids and sort of the

34:43

effect that his womanizing had on

34:46

this family that he created and on these

34:48

generations of people. So she's

34:50

figured out how to take

34:52

celebrity and write about it in a more

34:54

accessible way and in a way that's compelling

34:57

and a page turner and obviously accesses

34:59

massive audiences like you said book talk,

35:02

picks up on it. Side

35:04

note, she went to Emerson. She was in

35:07

my class but she wasn't a

35:09

writing major. She wasn't a writing major.

35:11

Oh she was in a film, wasn't

35:13

she? Yeah, yeah. Really funny.

35:16

But Kirsty, you said something that caught my

35:18

attention. You mentioned beach read because

35:21

there have been so many amazing

35:23

rock novels before this and

35:26

they've been books that have used

35:31

pop culture icons

35:33

that have, like I'm thinking particularly

35:36

of Zachary Lazar's novel, Sway. And

35:40

he's got members of the Manson family

35:42

in it. He's got the avant-garde artist

35:44

Kenneth Anger in it and you know

35:47

the Rolling Stones, early Rolling Stones, all

35:49

of that stuff all wrapped up together

35:51

and that those pop

35:54

culture references are just as interesting at least

35:56

to me as the flint in the

35:58

next story as in interesting as that is.

36:01

But I think you hit the nail on the head

36:03

when you said she figured out a way to tell

36:06

the story so that it's

36:08

very accessible to everybody. It's

36:10

a beach read. Zachary Lazar's novel is

36:13

a lot more intellectual.

36:15

It's a lot more literary. So

36:17

you know maybe that's

36:20

the difference right there.

36:22

Yeah and I want to

36:24

say too that I don't... some people use beach

36:26

read as like

36:29

a pejorative. They're basically saying that it's like

36:32

not a good thing right? They're

36:34

using it as something

36:36

that's like it doesn't have

36:38

anything to say and I would disagree with that.

36:41

I think that she has a lot of commentary

36:44

on celebrity and on fame and on

36:46

you know the lives of these people that

36:49

she's writing about that she's doing but

36:51

like you said in a less like heavy

36:53

intellectual way. It's still there. The commentary is

36:55

still there. Right. It's just more accessible. Yeah

36:58

absolutely and I think that she's

37:00

done that in a way

37:02

that yeah finds its audience and

37:04

I would

37:07

be lying if I said I don't study it just

37:09

a little bit because she's done it for

37:13

the biggest audience. Her books

37:15

are getting adapted like and

37:17

I think that without being

37:20

cynical if we're sort of

37:22

aiming for large audience without

37:27

she's probably spawned a lot of imitators I'd say

37:29

and I think that there's a way to sort

37:31

of take what she's

37:33

doing and adapt it for your

37:35

own work and you can put as much commentary

37:37

or as little as you want but the

37:40

point stands that because

37:43

so many people have references in pop culture

37:45

and I don't know about anyone else but

37:47

when I was doing you

37:50

know low-key education and creative writing we

37:52

were sort of told to steer clear

37:56

of pop culture references because it might date

37:58

the work and I always fucked against that,

38:00

I thought it doesn't make any sense. I

38:03

think that makes it relatable. And

38:05

I think now we're seeing in publishing, especially

38:07

in the sort of indie lit space, people

38:10

love references to pop culture because it's a bond,

38:12

it's sort of a shared thing that we can

38:14

draw on. And

38:17

most of it could be

38:19

like a personality trait and everything. It

38:21

defines someone's class and their background and

38:24

yeah, sorry for interrupting. Oh, no,

38:26

it's okay. I'm hammering on about it

38:28

because it fascinates me endlessly. But it

38:31

just made me think of like American Psycho

38:33

and stuff like that where it's like, oh,

38:35

he's obsessed with the Rolex, he's obsessed with

38:37

that, things like that. And he does those

38:39

diatribes about albums in the middle of it,

38:42

right? And then oh my God, I love

38:44

that. There's this sort of relatability that he

38:46

has as a psychopath where like he's doing

38:48

a deep dive on these as he's doing

38:50

these horrific things. And all this to say

38:52

that pop culture is a kind of, it's

38:55

a touchstone that people can can

38:58

relate to. And so I think

39:00

that that's a big piece of making

39:02

these things accessible, right?

39:05

So yeah, that's my that's my

39:07

thought on that. I don't know if anyone else has

39:09

any. That was great. Well,

39:11

I think also that characters don't exist

39:13

in a vacuum. And

39:15

like what you were saying, Mallory, what

39:18

you're interested in with regard

39:20

to music or movies or certain

39:23

foods or certain brands of

39:25

clothing says a lot about who you

39:27

are or who that character is,

39:29

that character's background. So I always

39:33

have included pop culture references in my work because

39:35

it's so much a part of who I am

39:37

as a person anyway. I

39:39

mean, I actually had included

39:42

it at the end of

39:44

my book, where they do a

39:46

secret movie club thing and Jessamyn immediately was

39:48

like, Oh my God, have you done that?

39:50

And it's like, see, there's a

39:52

personality thing that like I just threw out there

39:55

for you. So you actually understand the kind of

39:57

person she is. I mean, that was Very

40:00

cool to find that. I mean,

40:02

obviously as Movie Club, the band, we

40:05

are a big fan and we've done a match up

40:07

event with them. And it was very cool to see

40:09

you spotlight them at the end of your book. But

40:11

have you done that? I forget. No. How

40:15

did you like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm

40:17

like, Come up with the conclusion, though, like

40:19

what she's like, though, since you know what

40:21

it is and everything. Yeah,

40:23

but I wouldn't even call that a pop culture

40:25

reference. You know what I mean? That's like a

40:27

kind of like subculture. That

40:30

is true. Duncan Birmingham told

40:33

me about it. Amazing. What a

40:35

guy. I'm glad he's representing. He'd

40:37

probably say Vidyitz if it had

40:39

been these times. Vidyitz is the

40:41

new hot theater

40:46

in

40:49

town.

40:52

But

40:57

I did not encounter the stigma

41:00

of writing about musicians when

41:03

I went to submit this

41:06

novel that we're talking about. I

41:08

encountered another stigma that I feel like

41:10

no one talks about, which

41:12

is word count and

41:14

how in America. It's

41:17

all about word count. It's a gatekeeper

41:19

to if you want to be taken

41:21

seriously, if you want to even query

41:23

agents, it needs to be a certain

41:25

length. And how

41:27

other countries don't have that stigma. I

41:31

pick up New Directions translations all the

41:33

time. And they're some of my favorite

41:35

books ever. And they're

41:37

these slim, quote

41:39

unquote novels that are

41:41

maybe 85 pages long. And

41:43

I'm obsessed with them.

41:46

And that's where our attention

41:48

span is heading or already

41:50

is. And so it's baffled

41:53

me that the

41:57

publishing industry has not caught up.

42:00

with the rest of the world and

42:02

with our mindsets in that sense. Now,

42:05

I realize there are people who look

42:08

to a novel to just wrap

42:10

themselves up in it and get

42:12

lost and be in this

42:15

500-page tome and feel so invested.

42:17

And there is definitely

42:19

space for that. But to

42:21

only have space for that is

42:24

where I get a little

42:26

confused and a little bit bitter,

42:28

I guess. So

42:30

I love how to the point you are. Thank

42:34

you. I do think pacing

42:36

is a challenge for me and it's something

42:39

that I've been working on a lot

42:41

lately and can

42:44

always work on. But

42:46

still, that's my rant. What

42:50

was your word count? So

42:54

I've already finished a different novel since

42:58

the musician won. Sarah is crushing

43:00

it. So

43:03

the one that's coming out in February is only like 21,000

43:07

words, which is why

43:10

I didn't even really try to send

43:12

it anywhere to agents.

43:16

But then I have a new one

43:18

that's 41,000. So

43:20

it's like barely in the door. Somebody

43:23

told me the average novel is

43:26

like 60,000 words, but 40,000 and

43:28

above will get you in the

43:30

door, basically. Wait, so

43:32

this one coming out on Stalking Horse is only

43:34

21,000? Yeah. Oh,

43:37

wow. So it's a novella. That's what

43:39

they're calling it. Well, I mean,

43:42

some people call that a novella and

43:44

I think

43:46

that's the traditional definition of what a

43:48

novella is. But I've seen shorter novels

43:50

and they call them novel. And I

43:52

don't know if it's a marketing ploy

43:54

or a different

43:57

definition or what have you. But it's. It's

44:00

all over the board. Like

44:02

you see it all. And it

44:04

makes me wonder why that's such

44:07

a hangup to be in with. Hmm,

44:09

it's interesting. I

44:12

had mine with query

44:15

and like five in mind. And

44:17

I wrote it, I think it was 85, right? To

44:20

88,000 words or something. And I was like, hey,

44:22

it has to be this length. I have to make it this

44:24

length in order to like, very in

44:26

my book took a different journey.

44:28

I wound up self-loving it. But,

44:31

and even now having like

44:34

you said, our

44:36

attention spans are changing. And I like shorter novels now.

44:38

I think that that's all. I think that that's the

44:40

way it's going. And I think that there's something really

44:45

rewarding about telling a

44:47

story in a very

44:49

compressed amount of time and not rambling on

44:52

with it. And I think that my first

44:55

one, I'm glad that it was

44:57

the length that it was, but my next one,

44:59

certainly like you said, Claire, I'm adjusting my notions

45:01

of what a marketable book looks

45:04

like. And the next one is going to be shorter

45:06

for that. Cause I agree that people's

45:08

attention spans are adjusting and micro and

45:10

flash are the viewer guru now, right?

45:12

It's the way that people are consuming

45:14

things as in short little bites. And

45:17

I think that again, without being

45:19

cynical, you kind of want to

45:22

meet the reader where they're at. And also as

45:24

a writer, you need 88,000 words to

45:28

tell this story. Can it be told in 20, 40 or 60,000 words? I

45:33

think that it depends on the story itself, but yeah,

45:35

in terms of industry stuff, I agree that

45:37

there's a stigma with that when

45:39

you're querying for sure. Cause they're looking for that

45:41

kind of standard, oh,

45:43

if we're going to put this on a shelf in a Barnes

45:45

and Noble or in an Indigo, like we want it to be

45:47

300 pages. And I just

45:49

don't think that that's

45:52

not the direction that things are going on

45:54

the ground. It is very antiquated, I agree

45:56

with you. Yeah, as a

45:58

reader, I don't like description. for description's

46:00

sake, just like I don't like going to a

46:02

restaurant that's fancy for fancy sake and you eat

46:04

the food and you're like, what

46:07

is the big deal? So yeah, I

46:09

think part

46:12

of it is my own consumption

46:15

habits. I

46:27

love it that there are more and more small

46:30

pages that focus on

46:33

music and literature, rock novels. There's

46:35

so many of them now. Moblin

46:37

really is interested in the

46:39

rock novel. And there's, what was your

46:41

publisher, Jessamine? Three rooms?

46:44

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot now. So

46:48

maybe there was a stigma with big

46:50

houses, but it seems like that's

46:53

not the case with small publishing,

46:55

small presses. I

46:58

think Clash Books too is also like, they

47:01

just have a very like metal ethos.

47:03

Like even if they're not, all those

47:05

books aren't specifically about rock. Some of

47:07

them are, I think they did like

47:09

the history of Star or something or in defense

47:11

of Star was a big one. And

47:14

even if they're not,

47:16

that was a good one. Oh,

47:18

and it's beautifully packaged too. I don't know if you've seen

47:20

it, but like, holy moly, it's a beautiful book. But

47:23

they're, yeah, they're holy those is extremely rock

47:25

and roll. So even if the books aren't directly

47:28

about rock music, like

47:30

I think that, I think that indie presses

47:33

are kind of carrying that torch of like,

47:35

totally. Yeah.

47:37

So Clash is not an invitation,

47:39

right? I mean, isn't he in a

47:41

band too? I think that probably helps.

47:43

But yeah, Mallory, I feel like you've

47:46

always done a great job with

47:48

modeling of pushing people

47:50

that I don't know, I want to read.

47:54

I mean, the weirder the better. The weirder

47:56

the better. You know what? I published views

47:59

really good. I felt like

48:01

that might come off as kind of weird

48:03

since it was me, but that's not what

48:05

I meant. I

48:08

really love the design of your books too though.

48:10

Like thank you. The website looks great

48:12

and just all the books look great. Thank

48:15

you very much. I feel

48:18

like this is just like pat me on the back. Thank you.

48:21

But no, I think the whole thing with small presses

48:24

is that like they're almost

48:26

acting like indie labels, you know, or

48:28

like each press could actually like act

48:30

as like specializing in one thing.

48:32

I think it's interesting in case of that

48:34

you said Clash was so rock and roll,

48:36

which it totally is, but I find that

48:38

they're so much more obsessed with horror. Yeah,

48:41

I think that was like where they got their start and

48:43

then they kind of put

48:47

literary under the fold as well too. So I

48:49

think that it's like a really

48:51

cool meeting of those two

48:53

like worlds because they,

48:55

I know Christophe is

48:57

like particularly interested in horror and

49:00

then they just kind of merged with like literary

49:03

fiction as well. So I feel like everything that

49:05

they've published kind of has that undertone too, which

49:07

is very cool. And yeah, a lot of the

49:09

indie presses are leading

49:12

that leading the way in terms of

49:14

breaking down stigma around word count and

49:16

showing that you can write books

49:18

that are 20, 40, 60,000 words and

49:22

have them be fascinating

49:24

literature and still like a

49:26

satisfying story to read in

49:29

a more compressed format. Like if I can

49:31

knock off two or three

49:33

indie books in a week and I feel if as

49:36

opposed to just say like one that's three or

49:38

400 pages and I feel like I've gained, I

49:41

feel like I've gained as much from those short works

49:44

as we do from, you know,

49:46

the longer novel as well. So I try and,

49:49

I try and like balance that

49:52

with my reading

49:55

novels from Big Five Presses as well. So it's a

49:57

much bigger part of my diet than I do. it

50:00

was before my literary diet. And

50:02

it's totally analogous to album

50:05

length. I even title different

50:07

manuscript versions, EPLP. I

50:10

love that. That's so

50:12

cool. Yeah. Okay,

50:16

he's doing the double album there. And

50:19

I think we're talking about

50:21

shorter work and I think that's great. But

50:23

I think there's a place for the longer

50:25

work as well. And I

50:27

think it just really depends on what

50:30

your story is and how big of a

50:32

scope you have. And

50:34

totally a place for longer works. There's

50:38

no question. I just feel like

50:40

it seems like at times in

50:42

certain markets, there's only a place.

50:45

I would say

50:48

as a publisher, I get really intimidated when people

50:50

send me things that are way too long as

50:52

well. Anything over 100,000 words.

50:54

I'm just like, no, thank you. You

50:57

got to cut that by 40 thou. Because

51:01

the smaller presses have less resources

51:03

and less time and less people

51:05

involved, right? They

51:08

can't afford to be reading

51:10

things that are 100,000 words long. But

51:14

I think that it's like a guitar solo. There's

51:20

like a limit of time and

51:22

then anything after that, it becomes

51:25

masturbatory. So there's gratuitous. Yeah,

51:27

it's gratuitous. I'm

51:39

curious about if there's

51:42

any kind of research any of you

51:44

had to do outside of just your own

51:46

personal experience. Like, Jessamyn is a musician. Did

51:49

anybody have to go and do any

51:51

kind of research? Because I know

51:53

from my book, because I think I'm

51:56

the only one who is writing about a real rock

51:58

star. So I was trying to figure out how to do that.

52:00

traveling to England to go to all

52:02

of these Led Zeppelin related locations and

52:04

doing all that kind of thing. But

52:07

did you all have to do any research for

52:10

your books? Most

52:13

of my research was devoted actually to the

52:15

location and I just used the majority of

52:17

my knowledge of rock

52:19

stars and how they actually dealt with the

52:23

writer's block and struggling with their own

52:25

identities and everything. I mean

52:27

I drew a lot from Matt Schultz from

52:29

Cage the Elephant when he was having issues

52:31

trying to write a meliphobia. So yeah

52:34

he went pretty intense

52:36

into discussing how he would actually

52:38

drag his friends into his house

52:40

and like tell him like their

52:42

life stories and he would like type

52:45

it out on typewriter until something like jog

52:47

loose and everything. So I

52:49

used stuff like that and Patti Smith who said

52:51

that like she would have dreams and

52:53

immediately wake up and write it down and that would

52:55

turn into a song. But

52:58

I just used that knowledge and then

53:00

the only other thing I had to research was actually how

53:03

to write a song especially

53:05

like song notes because that doesn't come naturally to

53:07

me. Yeah I

53:09

had to do a ton of research for mine because

53:12

it was they were all

53:14

places I'd never been so I had to kind of

53:16

research what a college

53:19

rock tour might look like

53:21

and the locations that they'd stop. I had to

53:23

like research US geography because it was like a

53:25

road trip that I hadn't taken. I researched

53:31

what it was like

53:33

for indie bands in New York at the time so like

53:36

in the very early 2000s were specific to like

53:38

bars that they went to and that they would

53:41

have played at and

53:43

I researched down to like were

53:47

there specific gas stations near

53:49

these hotels or things

53:52

like that. I had to go pretty deep for those sorts

53:54

of things to try and make it as realistic

53:56

as I could I think because

53:58

I didn't want to flood. those parts. And

54:01

if I never been, I reverse engineered a

54:03

trip to kind of do a

54:05

leg of the road trip. Did

54:07

you look up these places on Yelp

54:10

at all? Because I did that for mine. No,

54:12

not on Yelp. That wasn't it. There was a lot

54:15

of like Google image search. There was a lot of,

54:17

that's good. Yeah, there was like

54:19

reading books from the, I read Meet Me in the

54:21

Bathroom obsessively. I think I read it seven,

54:24

eight times to make sure that I got those details.

54:28

Right. But yeah, lots of Google image searches

54:30

and trying to search these very famous hotels,

54:32

Chateau Marmal, or Hotel Jelvie

54:34

trying to get pictures

54:37

of them or accounts

54:41

from people who had stayed there without

54:43

having stayed there myself. So there was a

54:45

lot of research involved in mine. Yelp

54:47

was great idea. Yeah, it

54:50

really was. I just got everyone's reviews. And

54:53

then I was on Reddit a lot too. Yeah,

54:55

I just looked at Google Maps. And

54:59

I did some research. There's one band

55:02

member who's enamored with roadside

55:04

attractions, giant statues, world's

55:08

largest tea kettle, that kind of thing. And

55:10

so I had a lot

55:12

of fun looking stuff like that up. But

55:15

less about the music itself, I

55:17

think. I

55:19

think the other thing I got the

55:21

most into researching was the Cecil Hotel

55:23

because I have a really huge long

55:26

chapter devoted to a hotel that's based off

55:28

that. So I think I got into the

55:30

biggest wiki wormhole ever. Where

55:46

do you see other than maybe

55:49

shorter novels, where do you

55:51

see the trend going for

55:54

fiction about musicians,

55:58

especially given the runaway. success

56:00

of Daisy Jones in the sixth. Do

56:02

you see, I mean first of all, do

56:04

you see the genre

56:07

changing, the industry changing, or

56:09

what do you see coming down the pike? I

56:13

mean I think we're going to see a lot more imitations

56:15

of it for sure. I mean once you get something

56:17

that hits like a huge Amazon deal then you're

56:19

just going to have a lot of repeats and

56:21

everything. It's just like does anyone

56:23

else remember like the huge franchise obsession,

56:26

you know like Harry Potter, Twilight, Hunger

56:28

Games, and there's a, I

56:30

forget the other one, but no one

56:32

cared. It was like canceled like halfway

56:34

through. What was that? Oh

56:36

my god, it starts with a D? I

56:39

don't know, but they even filmed the series in

56:41

Chicago and they actually wrapped like in the middle

56:43

of it like oh no one's paying attention because

56:46

they hated the last book. So

56:49

I imagine that we might eventually get

56:52

to that point where you're just going

56:54

to have an oversaturated market. Hopefully

56:57

not. If you have the

57:00

right writers and they're taking different like angles and

57:02

everything, but if you're going to have a lot

57:04

of people who are going to be doing the this

57:06

is based off of this band, the I'm with

57:08

the band kind of story, then yeah I think

57:11

you get pretty tired pretty quickly, but I think we

57:13

all did a good job. Exception of

57:15

Claire because I haven't actually read your books. I'm

57:18

sure you did a great job of it, of actually

57:20

focusing on the introspective nature. I would

57:24

love to see like a music

57:26

section, like books about

57:29

a section and a book

57:31

for anyone. Yeah, like

57:33

it seems like all the

57:35

bookstores have to do is like start you

57:38

know putting it together, grouping it. I

57:40

feel like you know it would be

57:42

a lot more

57:44

like kid friendly too because I

57:46

feel like teenagers you know

57:49

they're so obsessed with music and

57:52

I don't know if they had like an

57:54

easy like go-to shelf you know like

57:58

sci-fi. Why are you Teenagers

58:00

so drawn to our literature

58:02

about fans Is

58:05

there cool? Yeah, I think

58:08

so I think you know like they

58:10

want books that have you know stuff

58:12

in them that like isn't free

58:15

You know package or canned

58:18

like a lot of stuff is really vanilla You know

58:20

a lot of the YA stuff and

58:22

I tried to like at least

58:24

put stuff in mind like that The parents wouldn't approve

58:26

of and the kid would want to like hide under

58:28

their bed like that was to me You

58:31

know those were the books that I liked growing up

58:33

Although my parents never had any book fans because they

58:35

were cool and both Super

58:37

book nerds so they said I could have any book

58:40

I wanted but I'm just saying

58:42

like Kids want

58:44

to read stuff that is a

58:46

little above their like age level

58:49

There's a kind of wild energy. I think

58:51

to Fans and

58:53

the lore around them that Teenagers

58:56

and young people really like I remember

58:59

one of my beta readers saying You

59:01

know this is very firmly about a book

59:04

is the book about people in their 20s and

59:06

there's a kind of energy to it that you

59:08

can't replicate as you get a bit older and

59:10

I think that for the

59:12

same reason that Teenagers

59:14

discover the beats and they respond to

59:16

the wild energy and like on the

59:19

road it's Channeling

59:22

that same sort of youth

59:25

and that same sort of abandon and I

59:28

think it's stories that Are

59:31

maybe a little edgier than what's marketed

59:33

to teens or to young adults? I

59:36

mean, do you think because it's about

59:38

like running away from the more conventional

59:40

lifestyle? Could

59:43

be and I think to the music Music

59:46

makes such an impact at that age in

59:48

a way that like sticks with you the

59:50

rest of your life in terms of What

59:53

sort of form the impressions that you form on that

59:55

thing? I think they said that like this is why

59:57

dad rock is a thing just because because

1:00:00

people get on

1:00:02

bands from their youth or like the sounds of

1:00:05

their youth, whatever that is, it doesn't necessarily have

1:00:07

to be the thing they came of age with.

1:00:09

It could be like, if you listen to Fleetwood

1:00:11

Mac a lot in your 20s and you're just

1:00:13

like, this is what I like, this is what

1:00:15

I've imprinted on, this is my measure for everything.

1:00:18

You're transported

1:00:20

back to a time where you

1:00:22

felt everything really keenly. And

1:00:25

I think that that's- The

1:00:27

style though, yeah. Yeah. And

1:00:29

I think that literature about that

1:00:32

channels that. And it

1:00:34

shifts all the time too. Like things

1:00:37

they're calling dad rock now are

1:00:39

like things that we came of age 20 years

1:00:41

ago. I'm like, I'm like- I

1:00:44

heard B.C. boys come on the

1:00:46

radio for that station. Yeah. Like

1:00:49

one of the classic seats. Yeah, the dad. Yeah. It's

1:00:52

always depressing, yeah. Yeah, there is an,

1:00:55

I think there was a thing going

1:00:57

around on Twitter a few months ago

1:00:59

that there was like an Apple playlist

1:01:01

that had called like arcade fire and

1:01:03

the strokes dad rock and people were losing. Oh.

1:01:06

Whoa. Oh my God. Where

1:01:09

is the mom rock though? That's good rock.

1:01:11

Yeah, that'd be so much cooler. I

1:01:14

anticipate emerging of the

1:01:16

literary and music world

1:01:19

more and more in the future.

1:01:22

I see a

1:01:25

lot of musicians writing novels

1:01:28

that are sort of fiction

1:01:31

like Jeff Rickley did of Thursday.

1:01:34

It was fantastic. He

1:01:37

already has a literary sense. He's already,

1:01:39

he's been a reader his whole life

1:01:42

and he had to write songs, which

1:01:44

I think is the most difficult thing

1:01:46

to write. I can't, I cannot even

1:01:48

imagine trying to do that. And

1:01:51

so if you're already challenging

1:01:54

yourself in that way

1:01:56

and writing something anyway, and you.

1:02:00

and you've built an audience, people

1:02:03

are going to be receptive and want to

1:02:06

publish whatever book you write and you probably

1:02:08

already have an inkling to do that to

1:02:11

begin with. So I see more and more musicians

1:02:14

with a certain number

1:02:18

of followers or fans writing

1:02:21

more. But I also,

1:02:24

I've seen with some

1:02:26

of our friends and

1:02:28

peers, musicians blurbing

1:02:32

books. Oh yeah, and

1:02:34

I don't know, maybe that's always been

1:02:36

a thing, but I've seen it for the

1:02:38

first time somewhat recently. And

1:02:41

so that makes me hopeful that maybe

1:02:43

the two worlds will collide more

1:02:46

and more and that books will

1:02:48

therefore become a lot cooler

1:02:50

as a result to the younger

1:02:52

generations. Jasmine has all the

1:02:55

cool blurbs. She does. Well,

1:02:57

you know, I know that was legendary

1:02:59

that they

1:03:03

were down for that. You know,

1:03:05

I reached out to like a lot of musicians

1:03:07

because I do want the

1:03:09

crossover. I am actively trying to

1:03:12

make that crossover happen. Like we have a

1:03:14

movie club playing a show at

1:03:17

the bookstore on Saturday with six

1:03:19

readers reading over our instrumental psych

1:03:21

rock songs. Like I want

1:03:23

to see more readings with live music

1:03:25

involved. Like we're all in the

1:03:28

same pool, you know, of people that

1:03:30

are just doing this passion thing. And

1:03:32

it's very hard and tech is found

1:03:34

all the ways to get the money

1:03:36

away and keep

1:03:38

it from us. So the least we can do

1:03:40

is try to create community and like crossfeed.

1:03:43

And that makes

1:03:45

me very excited. And I do think

1:03:47

it's kind of catching on like it's

1:03:49

not just like me out

1:03:51

there doing it. Like I've seen

1:03:53

more things happening about that

1:03:55

kind of merge. So thank

1:03:58

you for your work in that area. We

1:04:01

have to really love it to be here or we

1:04:03

would have stopped. There's

1:04:06

something about the community that we

1:04:08

have with each other because

1:04:10

of that, that wouldn't be

1:04:13

here otherwise. The

1:04:16

problem is that because the money is

1:04:18

not going to us, it's going to people in technology

1:04:20

and those are the worst people to have the money,

1:04:22

and it's just all going

1:04:24

in that direction overall. I

1:04:29

would much rather the bookstores, the indie

1:04:31

bookstores be making the money. The fact

1:04:33

that Amazon just literally is cornering every

1:04:35

market and they can

1:04:38

just do whatever they want at this

1:04:40

point. They're not making any money off books.

1:04:42

They are just doing this

1:04:45

to topple bookstores. They

1:04:47

make no money off book sales. That's

1:04:50

a true fact. Things

1:04:53

like that, it's one thing if it

1:04:57

was just built in. But the fact that we can't

1:04:59

make enough money and we have to do 80 million

1:05:01

things, juggle all these hats just to

1:05:03

try to scrape together enough free time to

1:05:05

write, independently wealthy

1:05:08

people are becoming the people

1:05:10

that get to make art very freely.

1:05:15

They're oversaturating the market.

1:05:19

You have to fight. You have to wear all the hats. I

1:05:23

just wish there was a

1:05:25

little more camaraderie and less

1:05:27

cutthroat competition because everyone's

1:05:29

starving and scrambling to

1:05:31

make it work. We all

1:05:33

have to pretend we're not doing

1:05:35

these degrading things to seem

1:05:38

like we're making it work. You know what

1:05:40

I mean? In

1:05:43

terms of the whole camaraderie, I think the

1:05:45

four of us just did an amazing thing

1:05:47

right now. Typically, we should

1:05:49

all be competing a lot

1:05:51

with each other's books. We

1:05:54

could be in a knife fight currently. Well,

1:05:58

the Brotherhood's been going... for

1:06:00

many centuries and the sisterhood really used to

1:06:02

catch up. So like it makes me very

1:06:04

happy and very, I

1:06:06

feel very hopeful that we were all able to do

1:06:08

this and like we

1:06:10

all get to just kind of like

1:06:12

speak and share

1:06:15

our opinions in a nice

1:06:17

environment but it is

1:06:20

really positive. So there is hope,

1:06:22

there is, I do think

1:06:25

for camaraderie and sisterhood. Jessamyn,

1:06:30

what you did with the Reading Rock and

1:06:32

Rainbow tour was

1:06:35

phenomenal and

1:06:38

I feel so lucky to have been at

1:06:40

your launch at booksuit because it was the

1:06:42

best reading I've ever been to and I've

1:06:45

been to a lot of readings. That

1:06:47

was and I tend to you

1:06:50

know just tend to feel like oh god I gotta go

1:06:52

to a reading. Oh man I gotta go to a reading

1:06:54

and they're just not, they're

1:06:56

so solitary most of them. You

1:06:59

brought people in. I mean

1:07:01

I felt a part of all of that and

1:07:03

you knew how to pace it, you knew how

1:07:06

you wrote a rock novel so you've

1:07:08

got music included in the reading and

1:07:10

it was just terrific. Thank

1:07:14

you Kristy. We

1:07:16

tried but I mean I really weren't

1:07:18

able to see it but I think

1:07:20

how you described how you got the

1:07:22

audience to interact with you that actually

1:07:24

sounds like it was pretty rad as

1:07:26

fuck. Yeah, yeah. Congratulations

1:07:29

to all of you for all that

1:07:31

you're doing from being

1:07:34

in publishing Mallory to the rest of this

1:07:36

just you know the writing that we're doing

1:07:38

and keeping on,

1:07:41

keeping on. It's not easy and it's

1:07:44

it's a tough business and I think

1:07:47

this genre is one that

1:07:49

I'm really passionate about and I think

1:07:52

you all are too and I see

1:07:54

so many sub-genres of the rock novel.

1:07:57

I mean I've talked to people on Rock

1:07:59

is Lit, who've written science fiction

1:08:01

rock novels and run

1:08:03

awards with it and they're horror rock

1:08:06

novels. You know, Jessamyn, you could

1:08:08

have thrown that vampire in there and been in that

1:08:10

sub-genre. That's next time. Yeah,

1:08:14

it's going in all

1:08:16

kinds of directions. It's really branching out

1:08:18

right now and I think it's really

1:08:20

exciting. Well, thank

1:08:23

you all for being here. This was

1:08:25

a fabulous conversation and I'm so glad

1:08:27

I got the chance to meet you

1:08:29

all even this from afar

1:08:31

and thanks again, Jessamyn, for putting a

1:08:33

bug in my ear. I really appreciate

1:08:36

it. Thank you for having us. Let's

1:08:38

start that club. Thank

1:08:51

you for tuning in, listeners. You can find

1:08:53

bios of each of the four guests on

1:08:55

this episode in the show notes as well

1:08:57

as their social media handles and website addresses.

1:09:00

Pick up a copy of their work novels

1:09:02

at your local indie bookstore or wherever you

1:09:04

buy books. If you enjoyed

1:09:06

this episode, that, The Rock is Lit

1:09:08

mascot and I would sure appreciate a

1:09:10

five-star rating and revealer your podcast back

1:09:12

in the 20s. Until next

1:09:14

time, keep rocking and moving and

1:09:16

getting lit. Rock

1:09:23

is Lit. It's

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