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buyraycon.com. History

2:14

in 5 songs. With

2:19

host Martin Papa. Production

2:24

of Pantheon

2:27

Podcast. With

2:32

host Martin Papa.

2:38

Welcome back to another episode of History in

2:40

5 songs with Martin Papa, brought to you

2:42

by the good people at Pantheon Podcast. We

2:45

are pleased as always to be part of

2:47

this vast and always expanding network of

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music swamis doing podcasts. Of

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course myself and John Gaffney have a new

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third episode. Check that

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out. Yes, available on Spotify, iTunes,

3:02

Podbay, Podbean, all over the place.

3:04

Okay, so this is episode 253. I'm

3:09

calling this Albums That Don't Deserve the

3:11

Love. Now that's a little vague, but again, the

3:13

idea is going to be here, is going to

3:16

be to be

3:19

conceptual with this. I'm going to have a

3:21

lot of examples, but I don't want to

3:24

say, this isn't just about overrated album sort

3:26

of thing. I was

3:28

also going to call this, my other title

3:30

for this, and this gets a little deeper

3:32

into the concept, is Albums

3:35

Everybody Tries Extra Hard to

3:37

Love. So it's not

3:39

just straight overrated, but it's like,

3:42

and again, this proved to be a good

3:44

idea because I went through tons and tons

3:46

and tons of bands. You could almost do

3:48

the flip side episode. I'm going to talk

3:51

about this concept a little, but I went

3:53

through tons of bands where I realized they

3:55

don't have any of these, and

3:58

one of the main reasons you won't... have

4:00

any of these in a catalog is that

4:02

the band has not built up particularly

4:05

large amount of goodwill and

4:07

it's more like you're

4:10

gonna tend not to overrate these

4:12

albums because of of the

4:15

dirty laundry the backstory maybe you know these

4:17

guys are dicks or that sort of thing

4:19

right so you

4:21

know picture yourself standing there as a fan

4:24

confronting this band that you that you love

4:26

or whatever you you want to love more

4:28

whatever but you're standing there with your arms

4:30

crossed right you know that whole thing about

4:33

the big city the big city

4:35

concert crowds right oh they just stood there you

4:37

know they didn't react kind of thing so so

4:39

you're standing there with your arms crossed and you're

4:41

saying okay prove prove that I should

4:43

love this album so this is kind of the

4:45

opposite right this is more like you

4:48

know you really wanted to love this album you

4:50

put in the effort so let me go through

4:52

my notes here and tell you some sort of

4:54

you know other contours or concepts the way to

4:56

look at this before we get into our examples

4:58

so you're twisting yourself into

5:00

pretzels trying to tell yourself that this is

5:03

a good album so this is the fans

5:05

gathering on the internet and it's and they're

5:07

all trying to convince themselves that this is

5:09

a good album when it's when it's really

5:11

crap and again the idea is you've built

5:13

up a lot of a lot of goodwill

5:15

right so so there's a lot

5:17

of hype but

5:20

it just ain't that good so people are

5:22

trying to put extra effort and rationalize it

5:24

you could tell your heart isn't in it

5:26

right you're you know this is sometimes on

5:29

these these shows when I say things like

5:32

you know my my head my head is telling

5:34

me one thing and my heart is telling me

5:36

another thing about this album right so you're trying

5:38

to intellectualize your way into loving it but your

5:41

heart just isn't into it so and

5:44

you know yet you you always see the same

5:46

phrases come up it's okay it's

5:48

not bad I have no problem with

5:50

it It grows on you, It

5:52

grew on me. I Just had to play it

5:54

a few more times. All these things right are

5:56

red flags that it's just not a very good

5:58

album. So these are out. The ones that

6:00

don't deserve the love or albums everybody

6:03

tries extra hard to love. Score!

6:06

Or another excuse is it's a good album.

6:08

Ah, but tie, they shouldn't have put that

6:10

band name on it. You know it's a

6:12

year or wonder under a different name or

6:14

a they put it out as a solo

6:16

album. My we would, we would all like

6:18

it more. that kind of thing, right? Or

6:20

or it's a good album of that period.

6:22

Are you know, against everything they came, came

6:24

around it sort of thing. I'm. So.

6:27

I yelled more concepts that we're going to get

6:29

to as we go along here. but to to

6:31

keep a general. So these guys are geniuses. I

6:34

trust them. You know how we've done that? The

6:36

two previous episodes on Genius in a different kind

6:38

of genius. So.

6:41

Let's see what else. Yeah, there's

6:43

there's other things are where this

6:45

needle comes in. The idea that

6:47

Tom, you know. We. We

6:49

could do big comparisons with how these

6:51

albums were received at the time, so

6:53

sometimes a lot of these albums another

6:55

red flags that they were reviled at

6:57

the time. They got bad reviews at

6:59

the time, but over time over the

7:01

decades there's been quote and quote a

7:03

rehabilitation of this album rights and it's

7:05

all. It's not as bad as the

7:07

critics thought it was kind of thing

7:09

or. Ah ah again are

7:11

a lot of these are the idea that

7:14

right off the bat we obviously you know

7:16

everybody's kind of stunned and thinking it's crap

7:18

and what you see on the internet on

7:20

Facebook is you see you see that initial

7:23

correct, correct reaction on the album and then

7:25

all of a sudden the pendulum is just

7:27

veering wildly back and forth. You get a

7:29

bunch of people ops infectiously causing a lobby

7:32

and added and and someone else has now

7:34

it's not you know and then people to

7:36

pile on and agree with that person that

7:38

it's not very good kind of thing. You.

7:42

Know so other ways to look at

7:44

this is it looked great on paper

7:46

the players the timing was rights. you

7:48

were surprised it wasn't that good. So

7:50

you know you're inclined to want this

7:53

rights your and co in inclined to

7:55

wanna Love this album. It's every it's

7:57

albums everybody tries hard to love. The

8:00

other final one before we get to our

8:02

first example is you give the band the

8:04

benefited the don't write ups so when you're

8:06

giving the band the benefit of doubt you're

8:08

saying there is doubt but our because you

8:10

have good will built up on this band.

8:13

I'm you are giving them the benefit of

8:15

the del So get so let's let's go

8:17

through. This is a kind of lose categories

8:19

armed and I'm giving some of it away

8:21

here. But let's listen are for selection here.

8:23

This is Queen with the Hitman. Okay

8:52

so the category here is roughly

8:54

speaking this idea of you have

8:56

so much good will towards the

8:58

band so innuendo is one of

9:00

the first ones are that is

9:02

come to mind. I've talked about

9:04

this album before right? and. You

9:07

know I listen to the Hitman and

9:09

are this song just sounds like ah

9:11

this this idea of a we have

9:14

to write a song like the good

9:16

old heavy days and put everything in

9:18

in a completely changed the production ah

9:20

and arrangement ideas we completely believe in.

9:23

We've proven over the last four albums

9:25

and put that aside and just right

9:27

one for the fans kind of thing

9:29

right? And you know you really wanna

9:32

hear Freddie Mercury talking about a hit

9:34

man armed assault. So this album, you

9:36

know, If you know I think here's the other

9:38

thing that happens with the soak. Soak it so on

9:40

the goodwill front. So this is queen right? You

9:43

want Queen to be heavy? It's a little

9:45

bit of a heavier albums are you know

9:47

the tragic story? It turns out to be

9:49

the last King or Queen album Freddie Dies.

9:52

so you've got death mixed into this. In

9:54

the talk, a little bit more about death

9:56

a little later. But.

10:00

The other funny thing that happens with this

10:02

album is. Basically. When people

10:04

think about this album, they literally just think

10:06

about the title track and the love the

10:08

fact at all compared to Cashmere. in all

10:11

this and it's has the and it's epic

10:13

and it's long and all that but people

10:15

forget there's a lot a crappy songs on

10:17

here and I also. I.

10:19

Also feel like even the other kind

10:21

of main attempt it trying to sound

10:24

heavier like or come back were making

10:26

heavy almas headlong. Have never liked had

10:28

long. I've just always thought the chorus

10:30

was dumb. the verses are kind of

10:33

dumb. And I

10:35

don't like seeing that word headlong with

10:37

you don't know know dasher anything in

10:39

it are. But Hit Man is the same

10:41

kind of thing that he waits songs, right?

10:43

That's the Canadian H bands rates. So

10:47

anyways, Yeah thought.

10:49

So that's a that's one. That I

10:52

feel fits this so innuendo. February Fourth.ninety

10:54

Ninety One. Freddie Dies. What Is it?

10:56

November Nineteen Ninety One, I believe. So.

11:00

And. Ah, so other ones you

11:02

know, the one that kind of may

11:04

be. Think about this whole category. doing

11:06

this show, period is. Is.

11:09

More skull ghost stories. I it's just

11:11

come out or you know, obviously it's

11:13

say i'm it's there and odds and

11:15

sods. It's a demos fixed up with

11:17

a I. It's kind of weird like

11:19

they're a eyes fixing up the on

11:21

your the production and they've they've you

11:23

know, parachuted in a few new vocals

11:25

and these are demos of songs done.

11:27

ah, from Seventy Eight to Eighty Three.

11:29

The weird thing is, you know we

11:31

knew we knew all the Blue or

11:33

Scott rarities. We all obsess over them,

11:35

but none of these songs ever came

11:38

up right and. Then your guts. We gotta

11:40

get out of this place again and you've got

11:42

kicked of the jabs again. you get a Beatles

11:44

cover which is new so it's a it's a.

11:47

Very. Verifiable mass Am I played

11:49

the whole thing. I went outspoken and

11:51

said I can't find a single. ten

11:54

second space of music on this whole

11:56

album that that i like let alone

11:58

songs but you just saw it happen,

12:01

right? You saw a whole

12:03

pile of negative reviews, then you saw a

12:05

whole pile of positive reviews, and then you

12:07

saw people starting to pick out songs and

12:09

saying, oh I like this, I like this.

12:12

You know, the tacit message

12:14

there is like, I only like two songs

12:16

when you start pulling out songs. But again,

12:18

the idea is there's a lot of goodwill

12:21

towards the band because we

12:23

all love Bloorish Ticult, they're probably my favorite

12:25

band. And you

12:27

get this with Club Ninja 2, you get this with

12:29

the Imagineos album, you know, we've done

12:31

on the Contrarian's all these panel shows

12:33

where you've taken an album and talked

12:35

about the album for a whole hour,

12:37

you know, these dark horse series things,

12:39

right? So when you have a lot

12:41

of goodwill towards a band, you are

12:43

more inclined to trust them

12:46

and say, you know, they know what

12:48

they're doing, this must be

12:50

a form of genius. Another one that I always

12:52

think of in this department, it's

12:54

a little bit of a weird one, but Rush

12:56

feedback, right? So there's

12:59

a lot of goodwill, obviously a legendary

13:01

amount of goodwill for Rush. So they

13:04

put out A, it's an EP, B, it's

13:06

terrible choices of songs that nobody wants to

13:09

hear. We've heard these songs a million times

13:11

before, they're just trampled

13:13

travel territory, and C, well,

13:16

okay, I'll go to D, C, the production

13:18

ain't great, and D, the playing

13:21

is pretty unimaginative. There's nothing really, you

13:23

know, this is supposed to be a

13:25

creative band, there's nothing creative about these

13:27

covers. So, but people will,

13:29

you know, twist themselves into pretzels

13:31

and, and, you know, and

13:34

praise and say feedback is kind

13:36

of an okay thing. So that's the idea

13:38

there. I think you feel the same way

13:40

a little bit about ACDC, you know, when

13:42

you get to rock or bust. You

13:45

know, I don't like that album at all, but I

13:47

see people, you know, Basically

13:50

saying it's a pretty, you know, Another

13:52

example is Iron Maiden Senjutsu. So you

13:54

put these two together. The Idea here

13:56

is that there's so much goodwill for

13:58

these bands. if you were just happy

14:00

that they're making some music all take

14:02

anything from these guys at all. It's

14:04

usually you have. you know it's a

14:06

Cdc worse but it's It's a long.

14:08

it's a long stretch between album see

14:10

are just happy to get or this

14:12

new music I you know. Some

14:15

a Cdc music's better than no a Cdc

14:17

music. Same thing with the Rolling Stones. are

14:19

Rolling Stones or worse than a Cdc I

14:21

suppose I in terms of spreading out the

14:24

albums but but similar Iron Maiden been very

14:26

admirable in this they they put out you

14:28

know, fair bit a new music right of.

14:31

So these big old institutions fit

14:33

into this category as well. Where.

14:37

Are you know and like to say not

14:39

everybody's like this. I went through a

14:41

lot of bands. Van Halen a good example

14:44

where there isn't a lot of good feel

14:46

good will built up for Van Halen So

14:48

it's more that the arms crossed thing but

14:50

with the Stones with Iron Maiden with

14:52

a C D C we are more inclined

14:55

to love it. We are more inclined to

14:57

be in a good good mood and be

14:59

favorable about it's than we are to be.

15:02

Show me about it kind of thing is

15:04

my point of. Air few isolated

15:06

examples. That I feel a perfect for

15:08

this category are Extreme. With the Six

15:10

Album Twenty Twenty Three, Goodwill built up

15:12

towards Extreme. We want to love Extreme.

15:14

That album came out we just try

15:16

to talk ourselves into like in it

15:18

as just not very good right now

15:20

and again. I hate using that term

15:22

not very good. I try to be

15:25

objective about these things but I basically

15:27

speaking lot of people didn't find a

15:29

lot to like about an hour and

15:31

there are other famous examples. We are

15:33

from my own experience Love to Death.

15:35

That first Masters of Reality album the

15:37

self titled I and then Sunrise on

15:39

the Suffer Bus comes out with that

15:41

cool. You know, even the front covers.

15:43

Pretty cool with the bunny on the

15:45

bike I think it is. Did.

15:48

Your bakers in the band. but it

15:50

was such a let down after the

15:53

first one, right? But again, this isn't

15:55

about. Just. talking about albums

15:57

i don't like a disappointing albums

16:00

or whatever underrated or overrated

16:02

in particular it's about the idea

16:04

of you want to try love

16:06

these things so much because you've got so much

16:09

goodwill built up towards them and you know

16:11

we did episode 60 which was give the

16:14

people what they want and this was a

16:16

story about when bands give you that heavy

16:18

album that you that you wanted so it's

16:20

the heaviness story but it kind of fits

16:23

in here just to mention as well because

16:28

because of these guys coming back with

16:30

these heavy albums you want to like

16:33

them so much because you asked for

16:35

them you've been complaining for years about

16:37

them not doing one when they come

16:39

back and do it you you throw

16:41

yourself into it a little more and

16:43

you wish you liked them a little

16:45

more but but you don't and and

16:48

our examples that we had there were

16:50

Thin Lizzy Thunder and Lightning we had

16:52

Iggy Pop we played easy writer from

16:54

Instinct we covered Ale Page that's gonna

16:56

fit another category here DLR band right

16:58

David Lee Roth comes back with a heavy album

17:01

you want to love it you want to give

17:03

them the benefit of the doubt but you just

17:05

felt the songs weren't really there and then Van

17:07

Halen itself with David Lee Roth with a different

17:09

kind of truth where again the

17:13

funny thing here is that it

17:15

doesn't fit the example of goodwill I don't

17:18

think I don't think there was a ton

17:20

of goodwill going into that into that Van

17:22

Halen album that they're sort

17:24

of a neutral band because of all these

17:26

things I talked about with with Dirty Laundry

17:28

and you and you hear you know and

17:30

maybe they're not such a fans band kind

17:32

of thing and then when

17:35

they come back so so it's it's

17:37

not like overflowing love and you're just gonna try

17:39

really hard to like this it's a little bit

17:41

of a show me but on the other hand

17:43

it fits our heaviness story where where it's

17:45

like you want to love it because they are

17:48

rocking out right so that's the kind of a

17:50

different thing okay so let's take a short break

17:52

and we'll be right back Hey

17:55

folks Stefan Shirazi and Renee Richardson here

17:57

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right, back again here at History in

18:46

5 Songs with Martin Popov. This is

18:48

our Albums That Don't Deserve the Love,

18:50

episode 253. Let's take a

18:52

listen to our second track here, and we shall discuss.

18:54

This is Black Sabbath with Letters From Earth. Okay,

18:58

so the category here

19:00

is a little

19:02

bit more, the

19:05

story is so good.

19:26

It's a collaboration. It's a reunion.

19:29

We just love the narrative going into

19:31

this album. So we're

19:33

loving the idea already. The idea, the

19:36

concept, even before we hear a note,

19:38

we are willing ourselves to love this

19:40

album. So this is from Dehumanizer,

19:42

June 22, 1992. It's

19:45

another one that always comes to mind when I

19:47

think vaguely along this concept line. You

19:50

know, we all want to love the fact that

19:52

it is literally the Mob Rules band back together

19:55

again, 10 years, 11 years,

19:57

well, 10 years later, I guess, with the live,

19:59

you know. the tour in there,

20:01

but essentially they're coming back. You just

20:03

want to love to death this album,

20:05

right? And we all, I

20:07

just see it time and time and

20:09

time again. Everybody grappling with it, right?

20:11

You got your people who claim they

20:13

love it. People that

20:16

are more honest about not loving it. I'm

20:18

kind of in the middle. There's a bunch

20:20

of songs I really like, but you

20:23

know, it's... You know, the funny

20:25

thing that happens with some of these records is you

20:27

might be walking around with the

20:29

mind space that you love it or walking around with

20:31

the mind space that you don't love it. For

20:33

me, I'm walking around with the mind space a

20:36

little more that I don't love it. And then when I

20:38

come back and play it, I'm pleasantly

20:40

surprised. So sometimes you're surprised, but most

20:42

of the time you're validated and you

20:44

go, ah, now I remember why, you

20:46

know, four songs in a row that

20:48

I don't like or whatever, right? And

20:50

you end up validated about it. Funny

20:52

one, Ted Nugent intensities in ten cities. I

20:55

just realized the whole first side of that's actually

20:57

pretty good. It's the whole second side completely falls

20:59

flat. But that's

21:01

one where you love the story of, wow,

21:03

Ted's putting out a whole

21:05

album in kind of the golden period.

21:08

My favorite period of the band, that 79 to 80

21:10

period. He's

21:13

coming out with a whole live album of

21:15

original songs. That's

21:18

a cool concept. I'm gonna want to love

21:20

this and then you don't. And

21:22

then, you know, big super group things like

21:24

checkered past. You might not remember what that

21:26

one is. It's kind of like a punk ragtag

21:29

super group. And

21:31

along those lines, I think of people

21:33

like them crooked vultures, audioslave,

21:35

velvet revolver, Asia, you might put in

21:37

here as well. Although I don't really

21:40

have to put them in Coverdale page.

21:43

But you know, a perfect example, I

21:45

think, is them crooked vultures, audioslave and

21:47

velvet revolver. So again, you're just

21:50

looking at this, Scott Whelan fronting

21:52

Guns N' Roses. Amazing sign me up kind

21:54

of thing, right? You

21:56

know, Chris Cornell on Rage Against

21:59

the Machine. You know all you

22:02

just you know, John Paul Jones and Josh

22:04

Homie Wow, you know you think this is

22:06

uh, this is incredible on paper. You want

22:08

to love it You just hope it's so

22:10

good and then they put it together and

22:13

and you're not pleased that another actually great

22:15

one Here is the Queen plus Paul Rodgers

22:17

album, right? There there's

22:19

another one where you're you're cheering them

22:21

on. It's like how dare you do

22:23

something so crazy like this I hope

22:26

it's awesome and then it's terrible, right?

22:28

So that happens Back

22:30

to Bloister coat you think of the buck Dharma

22:32

solo album flat out We all try super hard

22:35

to love that but then when you start breaking

22:37

it down You're like kind of like

22:39

half of it and then half of it I definitely

22:41

don't like sort of thing But yeah,

22:43

we all we all go back and mythologize

22:45

these things because there's only one buck Dharma

22:47

solo album, right? It's a major label out.

22:49

It's got a cool album cover You

22:53

know, it's put out in kind of their golden period So

22:56

yeah, you're you're in there. You're wanting

22:58

to love it But you

23:00

have to try super hard

23:02

another idea or band

23:05

example Here is UFO with walk on water

23:07

with Michael Shanker and then sharks and covenants

23:09

and you're like these are kind of like

23:11

damp squibs Right, you know, it's like You

23:15

you you hope all the walk on water. Yeah,

23:17

it's got some amazing songs in it But

23:19

the follow-ups are nobody sort of talks about them,

23:22

but we all tried super hard, right? We all

23:24

tried to like them and even more so

23:26

same kind of thing the Vinnie Moore era of

23:28

UFO I'm just not hearing

23:30

the songs there that I like I'm not

23:32

hearing any of that euro to tonic thing

23:35

But you know you you you appreciate that

23:37

they keep coming back time and time again

23:39

and they put together all those studio albums

23:42

So you're trying hard you're you're upset

23:44

at yourself. You love this band You're

23:47

just ticked off. You're disappointed that you're not

23:49

liking these albums more And

23:51

again another example of it of it

23:53

doesn't always work. So you think of Joe Perry

23:55

project We've got Joe Perry on the mind because

23:58

we've been doing these sea of tranquility of the

24:00

ranking shows were mashing catalogs

24:03

together. But we all love, you know,

24:05

the first one's an absolute masterpiece,

24:07

second one's really, really good, and then

24:10

when you get to the third one,

24:12

you know, basically

24:15

nobody likes it and I don't think it's

24:17

very good either, so it's kind of unanimous

24:19

on it, but it's not that everybody is

24:21

upset about that. So it's almost

24:23

like, okay, well there's not a lot of, for

24:25

some reason there's not a lot of goodwill built

24:28

up for the Joe Perry project that we're all

24:30

really, really just poured out

24:33

that we can't like the third Joe

24:35

Perry project album. You

24:38

know, and I wanted to say kind of

24:40

again to bring up the flip side

24:42

of this idea, there's also the opposite

24:44

too, where even Audioslave and

24:47

Velvet Revolver, you could say some

24:49

people had the arms

24:51

cross thing, right? It's like, ah, there's a

24:53

corporate put together super group, prove it to

24:55

me, show me, right? And

24:57

Motley Crue is kind of the same

25:00

way and Megadeth is sort of the

25:02

same way, but I wanted to say

25:04

on a positive flip is sometimes, okay,

25:06

say you're going in with a total

25:08

negative sort of, you

25:10

know, I'm more inclined not to like

25:13

this or even go so far

25:15

to say I'm going to be disappointed if this

25:17

is really good because I did not, I do

25:19

not approve of this concept, right? So

25:23

it can happen that we say

25:25

Motley Crue is a great example because

25:27

there's a lot of ill-will built up

25:29

to Motley Crue about the, you know,

25:31

the squabbling and the Mick Mars situation

25:34

and the tapes and Vince Neil phoning it in

25:36

and not singing the lyrics and holding his mic

25:38

out. So many things, Nicki Sixx, so

25:41

many ill-will things applied to Motley Crue

25:43

that if Motley Crue makes an absolutely

25:45

great album, there's going to be a

25:48

lot of people who will not acknowledge

25:50

that, right, who just will, will be

25:52

more inclined to complain than the idea

25:54

of this concept where

25:57

we are trying so hard to love these albums

25:59

sort of thing. You

26:01

know, I've always said this concept applies

26:03

to that band Warrior Soul. You

26:06

want to love those albums more. The

26:08

lyrics are great, the whole, you know,

26:10

the consistent packaging, the name of the

26:12

band, Corey is such a cool dude.

26:15

But the music is kind of boring and

26:17

kind of stiffly recorded. So there's

26:19

a whole concept that you want to love. And

26:22

reaching way back in time, Dust feels that

26:24

way with those two amazing album covers, the

26:27

song Suicide, the idea of who's in the

26:29

band and the kernor-wise. You love the story,

26:31

you love the narrative, but the music's not

26:33

there. But people will swear up and down

26:35

those two albums are absolute classics because they

26:38

just try so hard because they love the

26:40

story, right? And

26:42

then the death concept, I think, is a bit

26:44

of a sub-one of this, of the story, the

26:46

narrative, right? So people want to love

26:48

Come Taste the Band a lot

26:50

because of Tommy Bolin and his tragic story and

26:52

it's the only deep purple album he's on. And

26:55

even the Tommy Bolin albums for that matter. I

26:57

mean, that's even more extreme example of that, right?

26:59

Private Eyes and Teaser. Gary Moore

27:01

catalog, I feel there's a little

27:03

bit too much romance applied

27:06

to that. People are trying to love

27:08

those albums more because of the story of Gary being

27:10

no longer with us. I even feel

27:12

like Little Feet belongs here. Those last,

27:14

you know, those last couple of albums

27:16

with Lowell George, I don't think are

27:18

as good as the reunion era Little

27:20

Feet and even more so, I think reunion

27:22

era without Lowell

27:25

George, Little Feet is better

27:27

in the second half than even the first half. So

27:30

I have a lot of time for that

27:32

band and the early stuff is absolutely classic.

27:35

But I think people romanticize

27:38

because of the passing of Lowell

27:40

George, those later ones a little

27:42

more. Okay, so let's move on to our third selection here.

27:44

Take a listen to this. This is Rush

27:46

with Carnies. Okay,

28:11

so the category here

28:13

is concept albums and I feel, Rush's,

28:16

this is a funny one where I

28:19

kind of felt, so I can fall for it too,

28:21

right? I can get swept up in the excitement and

28:23

now I'm not liking this album all that much anymore.

28:26

But I think this happens with concept albums a

28:28

lot where a band gives you a concept album,

28:31

you want to love it because it's like, oh,

28:33

they're going to go full hog on this. We've

28:35

always wanted a concept album from these bands. You're

28:37

loving the story and then when they put it

28:39

out, you're not crazy about it. Dio Magica kind

28:41

of fits this as well. Where

28:44

you think concept albums are a natural for him,

28:46

he puts it out. It's his,

28:49

you know, legendary slow period of the band

28:51

where things are played at a slow tempo.

28:53

The time lies down on Broadway. I feel

28:55

this as well. This is one

28:58

where people say it's the greatest Genesis album or not.

29:01

But the story is completely bizarre and it

29:03

just ties you up and you

29:05

know, you tie yourself up like a pretzel

29:08

trying to love this album when it

29:10

doesn't perhaps deserve it. Bluest

29:12

Cult Imagineaus is a perfect example of

29:15

this as well. That's a hodgepodge dog's breakfast

29:17

of an album. Judas Priest and

29:19

Nostradamus, we all wanted to love

29:21

Nostradamus. And then when they

29:23

put it out, it's kind of got a

29:25

lot of slow mid tempo stuff, too much,

29:27

too much interlude things. And

29:31

the production is kind of that

29:33

interesting period of Glenn Tipton type

29:36

production. Kiss

29:38

the Elder and that fits a

29:40

future concept here that we're going to talk

29:42

about. But again, you want to love it

29:44

because they're being deep. Yes, Tales

29:46

from Topographic Oceans. This one's had the up

29:48

and down reputation, but people still try super

29:50

hard to love it. They try to put

29:53

in the work and

29:55

they will twist themselves into pretzels thinking it's

29:57

a great thing. You know, a bit

29:59

of a. Subcategory here is just

30:01

the idea of genius period

30:04

my buddy Ed Whitmore who we talked

30:06

about last episode has brought up Radiohead

30:08

Kid A And

30:10

other difficult music that made me think

30:12

of public image limited, right? So you

30:14

try super hard to love this because

30:17

you think it's good for you. You think it's

30:19

deep You think you are an intellectual if you

30:22

can get into this music? So you try and

30:24

try and try and try so that is the

30:26

concept of this episode. All right So let's move

30:28

on to our fourth category here. Take a listen to

30:30

this. This is kiss with easy as it seems

30:59

Okay, so the category here is we overanalyze

31:01

this band to death so much that you

31:04

eventually have to go deep Right and kiss

31:06

is the perfect example of that. So we

31:08

have had the full-on rehabilitation

31:11

of Dynasty we've

31:13

had a pretty darn good

31:15

rehabilitation of unmasked All

31:18

we did in the 80s is kind of complain

31:20

about kiss through the 80s But yet all

31:22

those 80s albums are now seen as semi-serious

31:24

works of art Let's not go too overboard

31:26

here But but yeah We've we've all spent

31:28

a lot of time talking about all these

31:30

these dark horse quote-unquote kiss albums and try

31:33

to look and you Know if you want

31:35

to be super extreme about it. Well, let's

31:37

go. Let's go second level first the kiss

31:39

1978 solo albums We've

31:41

all you know Seriously analyze those and studied them

31:43

and all of a sudden the ace freely is

31:45

a you know Well, not all of a sudden,

31:48

but we've always talked about it as a great

31:50

album But is

31:52

it is it, you know really deserving, you know,

31:54

there's there has been some backlash on kiss recently

31:56

saying, you know Haven't we over talked about kiss,

31:59

but you know know if you want to get

32:01

super extreme about it I even see people say

32:03

oh I like those Peter Criss solo albums out

32:05

of control and let me rock you and all

32:07

that kind of stuff right and sometimes these people

32:09

are just trying to get a rise and trying

32:11

to be contrarian that's a whole nother thing people

32:13

talk about yeah the contrarian thing

32:15

with me and the you know the fact that

32:17

we have the show like that but Alice Cooper

32:20

the blackout period same kind of thing where we

32:22

you know those albums

32:24

were universally reviled they didn't sell for

32:27

a long long time nobody said there was

32:29

anything good on those albums but because they're

32:31

just sitting there ready for reexamination we do

32:33

examine them and we and we consider them

32:35

to be serious art in a way you

32:37

know there's an abstract concept here where you

32:40

know you can pull yourself away and say

32:42

it is just three minutes of sound moving

32:44

through invisible air where where you know who

32:46

knows what a good song is or not

32:49

you know there is no real truth to

32:51

this so again

32:54

it there's a little bit of you

32:56

are on board with the artist you

32:58

are considering them a genius or or

33:00

you know at least a good artist that you

33:02

trust their instincts and this must be good and

33:05

I'm just not getting it so you try harder

33:07

kind of thing right Led

33:09

Zeppelin is an interesting case

33:12

where you know sometimes the catalog

33:14

is short and you know in

33:16

combination with being so overanalyzed that

33:18

eventually every song is considered genius

33:20

and it will definitely get a

33:22

lot of deep consideration over time

33:25

you know the idea of you

33:27

think of Judas Priest point of entry

33:29

or turbo where sometimes you think okay

33:31

so now it's time to add one

33:33

more to my canon of the greats

33:35

right because I've been talking about them

33:37

for so many years they keep putting out

33:40

a lot of albums good number of

33:42

those maybe I'm not totally on board with

33:44

so point of entry don't look so bad

33:46

no more so so I'm adding that to

33:48

my canon so you work a little harder

33:51

to rationalize and and and

33:54

argue for the fact that point of entry is

33:56

is great art kind of thing right okay

33:59

let's move on to our lot. Last example here.

34:01

Take a listen to this. This is

34:03

the clash with movers and shakers. Alright,

34:28

so this is from the cut the crap album November 4th

34:30

1985. So the category here

34:34

is I'm guilty of this too. So

34:37

I actually quite like the cut the

34:39

crap album and you know why. So

34:41

I think it's just because I

34:44

just got to hear Joe Strummer's voice some

34:46

more right. I just love the fact that

34:49

there is at least some more Joe

34:52

Strummer to cherish out there. I've kind

34:54

of always liked it more than the

34:56

previous album anyways combat rock. But

34:59

yeah and then you go into the oh but

35:01

I would love to hear a remix of this

35:03

and then you start saying oh I wish AI

35:05

could fix this or someone would remix it and

35:08

blah blah blah and put in the real drums

35:10

remove the drums put it. So you start playing with

35:12

these albums and that's a red flag because the

35:14

album is not that. You're trying to make it better

35:16

than it is sort of thing. So I am guilty

35:18

of this. I feel like I'm

35:20

guilty of this as well when

35:23

I profess my love

35:25

for Black Sabbath technical ecstasy and never

35:27

say die so much and even Bloist

35:29

Galt mirrors because so here's the point.

35:32

These are two of my favorite bands of all time. I love

35:35

everything they do. I trust

35:37

them as artists. I think they're great artists.

35:40

So even when they put out stuff that

35:42

objectively out there in the world like say

35:44

never say die most people think is crap.

35:47

I think it's absolute genius. I love it start

35:49

to finish. One of my favorite

35:51

Black Sabbath albums period. But

35:53

yeah I'm guilty of this too. What

35:57

am I guilty of here. Let's go back to the title here.

36:00

just to, just to, just to, you

36:02

know, so albums that don't deserve the

36:05

love. So yeah, so my, my title is

36:07

albums that don't deserve the love. So am

36:09

I saying never say die doesn't deserve the

36:11

love. What I'm saying

36:13

is I love it. So I'm guilty of

36:15

this idea and maybe it doesn't deserve the

36:17

love on an objective level. So

36:20

you know, and here's something else I wanted

36:23

to bring up. So, so we're doing these

36:25

panel books and my buddy Ralph and even

36:27

Doug Mayer to, to some extent I feel

36:30

is guilty of this. So they belong with me

36:32

in this category number five here of

36:34

Ralph has this idea that

36:38

once you love that artist and you do think they're

36:40

genius, you have to trust their journey. I guess I've

36:42

kind of said this, you know,

36:45

in a roundabout way anyways, but he

36:47

can speak so eloquently about, you know,

36:50

We Can't Dance or Invisible Touch

36:52

or Phil Collins solo albums because

36:56

he just loves Phil Collins so much and

36:58

yet he can convince you, but

37:00

you're not convinced kind of in a way. Like he

37:02

can convince me to appoint because

37:04

I, I respect him and

37:06

Doug so much about the way they can

37:08

talk about these records. A bunch of people

37:10

on these panels, frankly, that

37:13

I can be taken a certain amount away.

37:15

But, but at some point with Ralph, especially

37:17

I go, I think, I think

37:19

you're the problem here. So I'm

37:21

thinking like you are really

37:23

trying way too hard and you've

37:25

convinced yourself way too hard. And

37:28

I think, I think I'm noticing that, that

37:30

your, your argument is kind of flawed, even

37:32

though you can argue this so well that

37:34

Phil Collins is a genius on all these

37:37

solo albums, I can't be taken there. And

37:39

I've seen this pattern with you so many

37:41

times that I'm not sure if

37:43

I have to trust you, even

37:45

though you said the most amazing things

37:47

just now about, about these records sort of

37:49

thing. So yeah, I think I've

37:51

seen it in other people as well. And

37:54

I guess like I say is you love these

37:56

bands so much. Like I say, you, you love

37:59

this journey of... of what they

38:01

do. So, wow, I've been doing these

38:03

episodes pretty long lately, right? So

38:06

yeah, if you like this show and want to support future episodes,

38:08

yeah, you can go to Ko-fi, hit

38:10

that red support button. It's just a PayPal

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one-time, it's not a recurring thing, it's a

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three dollar thing, and support the

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show. It makes me feel like this is

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like a toy job at least of some

38:22

sort of job that there is value that

38:24

people are attaching to it. So you can

38:26

go to ko-fi.com slash martin pop

38:28

off hit that red support button. This

38:31

week I would like to thank Andy at Black

38:33

Sugar Transmission. I think he's back from all his

38:35

touring stuff. Pretty cool. Peter

38:37

Kerr went met up with him in Australia.

38:39

That was awesome. Joe

38:42

Beck, Lee Fox, Clifford, Monty Olson, Augustin Garcetti,

38:44

Deep Reddy, Steve Pellari, John Stucky, and Darrell

38:46

Woodard. Thank you all very much. This week's

38:48

been a busy week on the book front.

38:50

We've got the new Van Halen at 50,

38:52

and we've got the Led Zeppelin visual biography

38:54

just in. So as soon as I'm done

38:56

here I'm going to pack up a bunch

38:58

of that stuff and get it out the

39:00

door. But yeah, all

39:02

your book stuff, martinpopoff.com. You know I've

39:04

been doing those little illustrations and stuff

39:06

too. We've got the illustrations in

39:09

print form from the Imagino

39:11

series, and my drawings of rock

39:13

stars and all that. You can go to martinpopoff.ca

39:15

and see all that stuff if you want. And

39:17

yeah, I'll make that offer again. Anybody wants to

39:19

buy a book, I'll throw in some show notes

39:22

with those as well. You can see

39:24

how we put this thing together. There

39:26

you go. Go listen to some overrated

39:28

albums or albums that just don't deserve

39:30

the love, or albums that we just

39:33

all try too hard to love too

39:35

much. Find

39:38

all of our shows, notes, social,

39:40

and links at www.pantheonpodcast.com,

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