0:00

Oubnatched how Wow what Giano

0:02

called, which a

0:05

former Fox News host is accused of going

0:07

woke, the debacle in Afghanistan,

0:10

is reigniting the tear threat against America,

0:13

and just how real is reality

0:15

TV? We got a lot to cover

0:17

today in a wide ranging show. This

0:19

is Outllowed with Gianno called Well. I'm

0:23

beyond excited to welcome Ebony

0:26

Kay Williams to Outlow with Giano called

0:28

Broll. Thank you for coming on vix Us. I

0:30

love you so much. I'm so so

0:32

honored to have you on my last

0:35

episode and really

0:37

importantly here this is your first

0:40

conservative podcast since you left

0:42

Fox years ago. It is it

0:44

is yeah, bro, this is this is my honor. You

0:46

know, I remember when we were having uh,

0:49

you know, preliminary conversations

0:51

around you and podcasting

0:53

and what's the show and what's the title and what's

0:55

the cover art? So, uh, you know, to be

0:57

here today after such a successful see

1:00

and um, it's a manifestation of God's

1:02

will And I'm honored and congratulations

1:04

truly absolutely,

1:06

and thank you for mentioning that as

1:08

I was gonna mention you were very involved in the

1:10

process of was shooting you ideas thoughts,

1:13

what do you think of this picture? What do you think of this graphic? And he

1:15

was like, I like this, I don't like that. So You've

1:17

been a part of the process for many years

1:19

and my career especially so not

1:22

just with the podcast for those who are listening, but

1:24

also with television as well. And if

1:26

I can tell this brief story

1:28

of how we met many many

1:30

years ago, I saw a clip of Ebony

1:33

on Twitter and my first thought was, Wow,

1:35

this is a beautiful woman. Let me hear what she has

1:37

to say. And when I listened, I'm like,

1:39

wow, she's brilliant. Let me look

1:42

for more of her YouTube's and

1:44

so on. And I listened, and I listened, and I

1:46

listened, and I followed you on Twitter, and

1:48

then all of a sudden, your name was

1:50

coming up everywhere. A woman who I've

1:53

never heard of before that moment.

1:55

I'm hearing about you in South Carolina,

1:58

at the rooftop of the Bar and Chicago

2:00

on the ninety eight floor downtown Chicago,

2:02

somebody's mentioned you. I'm hearing about

2:05

you at dinner during the New Year's Eve with

2:07

Armstrong, Williams and others, and

2:09

I said, you know what, next time I co host

2:12

Armstrong series X and radio show

2:14

I have to have this woman on, which

2:16

I did. And then after we

2:19

did our thing, which was more of a debate

2:22

than anything else about the executive

2:24

order pushed through by President Obama. And

2:26

I know you were a big supporter of his at that

2:29

time, maybe still now, but

2:31

anyway, after we had that debate, you said, listen,

2:33

next time you're ainoied New York, let me know. We'll

2:36

get together and have a conversation,

2:38

which we did, and you offered

2:40

me help just on the onset,

2:43

which I've not really necessarily had that experience

2:45

unless I was super seeking it where

2:47

people will offer it, but no one has been

2:49

so freely in a position

2:52

to help, who's offered to help,

2:54

and has been so consistent so

2:56

throughout my entire career. And I

2:58

started in politics when I was fourteen, started working

3:00

for the federal government when I was sixteen, part

3:03

time, so on and so forth, been a lobbyist, and

3:05

of course was on television before I met

3:07

you, CNN and other networks. But I had

3:09

so desperately that's really tried to

3:11

get into Fox News, and it's very tough you

3:15

and one conversation said hey, I'll introduce

3:17

you to the producers that

3:19

Bina the next time you're in New York, and I said, I'll

3:21

be back next week Friday, which

3:24

it was a Friday we were meeting. You said I won't be available.

3:26

I said, well when are you available? Eednie Kay Williams.

3:28

You said Tuesday. I said I'll be back here Tuesday,

3:30

and I took the twenty dollar bus. But yeah,

3:33

you helped me. And you've been just by

3:35

my side looking at every one of my television

3:37

appearances for two months straight, giving me advice,

3:40

critique, um, love and support

3:42

throughout. So I really honor you and I'm

3:44

really thankful to have you on my very last

3:48

fifty episode. So thank you so much.

3:50

No, thank you for all of all of that. G

3:53

And I just want to give context to some of

3:55

your listeners as to how that

3:58

positioning came about. Right, So, a couple

4:01

of things that you left out of the storytelling.

4:03

Number One, after you

4:06

said you know my name is in the ethos and

4:08

you're like, okay, this is, you know, probably

4:11

an indicator that I should have some kind of content

4:14

content engagement with this woman, you

4:16

actually cold tweeted

4:18

me UM to invite me

4:21

to be a guest on Armstrong william Show. Of course

4:23

I'd heard of Armstrong william Show, but I never

4:25

had any inclination to to be on. But

4:28

I thought there was something very audacious about

4:31

a young man who was guest hosting

4:33

to have the audacity to ask

4:36

a then legal and political

4:38

contributor and analyst f Fox News that

4:41

he had never met Um to join

4:43

him in that debate on an issue,

4:45

that we on that issue were on opposite sides

4:47

of UM. And I really, I really liked it. I respected

4:50

it. I thought that told me already something about you,

4:52

so I I complied. Then

4:54

I liked very similar

4:57

to me. And this will lead me to why I even

4:59

fell been inclined to introduce

5:02

you to anybody at Fox News. Um,

5:05

was you presented fact based argument? You

5:08

know you know me to know I'm not big

5:10

when people into spaces of high

5:12

stakes where you're talking about policy,

5:15

You're talking about life or death decisions

5:17

that are federal and state and local government make

5:19

as it relates to the well being of everyday American

5:21

citizens, and you bring a bunch of hyperbole,

5:24

a bunch of emotion, a bunch of hoopers. I'm

5:26

not into it. Um, I don't

5:28

rock like that. And you in that debate,

5:30

g you presented facts, we didn't

5:33

agree on the application of the facts.

5:35

That's okay, I want to say that

5:37

one more time because I think that's being very lost

5:40

in this whole ethos right

5:42

now. Um, as it relates to politics and

5:44

debate and conversation. We

5:47

didn't agree on the application

5:50

of the facts, but we agreed on

5:52

the facts and from there we could have an intellectualized,

5:55

practical, and productive conversation

5:57

as it relates to how this stuff can

5:59

help people. Boom cool. So

6:01

afterwards you did follow

6:04

up and you were like, yeah, let's let me know when you can can

6:06

link. Fine. I hear that thirty

6:08

times a day, every day. Fine. Um,

6:11

you followed up, and I'm telling these details

6:13

you to to let people know that it's not

6:15

just some magic fairy

6:18

godmother or godfather that's going to come out

6:20

the universe and and and put you in position

6:22

to succeed. It doesn't work that

6:24

way. What can happen you

6:26

hear this often, Uh, successes

6:29

is where opportunity meets preparation.

6:33

What's important here is that you were prepared

6:36

to be put in position. So when we

6:38

let's go to that very first meeting, UM,

6:40

I said let me see some of your your real

6:43

and first of all, you had a real to show me.

6:45

Let's start there. No, I'm serious because

6:47

a lot of people they reach out to you, they

6:50

reach out to me, they reach out to our colleagues, and

6:52

they want to be on prime

6:54

time, Fox News, CNN,

6:57

what have you. And when you asked them for

6:59

basic examples of their

7:01

work, what would you do if you had

7:03

an eight o'clock time five God came down himself

7:05

right now and say, you've got the eight o'clock time slot all

7:08

week? What does your content look like?

7:10

You can't answer that, then

7:13

what do you expect to people? So anyways, ask

7:15

you for a real? You gave me a real. I watched

7:18

several clips and I said immediately, just by

7:20

watching that real Giano, a couple of things

7:22

stood out to me. Number one, you knew how to present

7:24

on camera, okay, like just aesthetically

7:26

and that's important in this business. One

7:29

thing Roger Els taught me, uh,

7:31

this is optics.

7:34

This is television. Okay, this is a visual

7:36

business. Um. Regardless

7:38

of you know, things that they came out that were of course

7:40

very problematic, the basic tentacles

7:43

of television remain. This is a visual

7:45

business and your ability to present well

7:47

aesthetically optically, it's paramount. You

7:50

knew how to look good on television.

7:52

Great, don't have to teach you that. Number two again,

7:54

you make fact based, coherent arguments too

7:57

deep to agree you disagree, that's not the point.

7:59

You know how to sit in front of someone else of

8:01

opposite position and make an argument.

8:03

Great. The rest of the stuff can be tweaked. Cool.

8:06

So it was enough for me to say this

8:08

is a young man. Also, you talked about

8:10

how desperately hard you'd

8:13

work to be on Fox News. It's not a secret.

8:15

Um. None of the networks in my opinion,

8:18

Um, when I say networks, I'm talking about, of course

8:20

the cable news networks, Fox News, MSNBC,

8:23

seen, and I don't think any of them have an adequate number

8:25

of representation of diverse

8:27

voices. And when I say diversity voices, I'm not just talking

8:30

about skin color, although that's important. I'm

8:32

also talking about ideological diversity.

8:34

I'm talking about regional diversity.

8:36

Where in this country, Um, you come

8:38

from, where your perspective is informed. You

8:41

know, Gee, I'm a daughter from the South. That

8:43

is not a perspective. You see a lot on

8:46

these national news outlets. Not because people

8:48

from the South are on there, we don't necessarily talk

8:50

about it. I think it's of the utmost important.

8:53

Um. So you were

8:55

bringing a perspective, you know, born

8:57

and bred southside Chicago, coming

9:00

from you know, a background that

9:02

I related to, extremely humble beginnings,

9:05

entrepreneurship instilled upon you by your grandfather.

9:08

Like just stuff that just vibed with me. You

9:10

know, we we talked a lot about our mothers

9:12

and you know, just different things that made

9:15

us have a unique perspective on

9:17

on themes like hard

9:19

work, opportunity, what

9:22

success looks like, UM,

9:24

resilience, uh, by

9:26

way of the American dream. So all of that

9:29

was really really dope to me. Many

9:31

people ask you about your journey with God,

9:33

which I think is the really the center

9:35

place of your life. A lot of

9:37

your decisions come from that place, and

9:40

I love for you to kind of share with us, you

9:42

know, what has that really been like in your

9:44

journey and television? Uh

9:47

and law? You know, you know, it's a it's

9:49

an important question because while people

9:52

don't ask me about

9:54

the role God and my faith plays

9:56

in my day to day and in

9:58

particularly my work, it is a thing that is you

10:00

know, because you you know, consume a lot of my continent

10:03

interviews. I intentionally try

10:05

to deliver those

10:08

realities because I think it's important

10:10

that people know. This is not me. Really

10:13

simply put Giano, UM, the work

10:15

that I do, the blessings that I've been able to receive,

10:17

the impact um to the extent I

10:20

have been able to make one, It's

10:22

not my doing. I know

10:24

that. UM. I've been very

10:26

clear from a very early age that all is

10:28

happening here is that I am a vessel.

10:31

That's it. I am a vessel

10:33

of God's will. I believe

10:36

in spiritual gifts. I think

10:38

every single person born get

10:40

some or some spiritual

10:43

gifts. And I think what is

10:46

so incredibly rewarding g and

10:48

and we've had these conversations in depth for years,

10:51

is when you are able to identify with

10:53

some level of precision what are

10:55

your spiritual gifts? Right, and

10:58

then once you know what those spiritual gifts are,

11:00

then to me and there's

11:02

actually um. And I'm not

11:05

a big Bible thumper, as you know, but my

11:07

my belief in my faith is of the utmost important.

11:09

But I do believe their scripture that talks about

11:12

you know, God gives you spiritual gifts. That's

11:14

him doing his his part. Your part

11:16

is to then figure out how to pour those

11:19

spiritual gifts that he gives you back into the world.

11:21

Everything that I do and a lot of people look at

11:23

the moves I make in the business, UM

11:27

and they don't understand them. So, whether it's

11:29

going to Fox News in the first place,

11:32

whether it's making a decision after several

11:34

years UM of being successful

11:36

on the network to then pivoting UH

11:38

to leave the network to uncertain

11:41

future, then it was taking

11:44

a role at Revolt, which is a completely

11:46

urban black centric outlet

11:48

owned of course by Sean pdd Combs,

11:51

UH hosting a real hip hop

11:53

talk show UM with naturally

11:55

recognized internationally Grammy nominated

11:57

actors rappers rather Joe

12:00

Button and Remy Man and Brandon Jenks people

12:02

that didn't make sense to people, No

12:06

real house pis of New York like what

12:08

you're doing it? But what

12:10

you knew the whole time because we were discussing

12:12

it. I was letting

12:15

God order my steps, right,

12:18

This is God putting me in front of particular

12:20

audience so that my particular

12:22

spiritual gifts could be manifested,

12:28

could be received from

12:30

those who otherwise might not be

12:32

privy to those elements,

12:35

those energies, those particular things.

12:37

So I just can't say enough again,

12:40

I guess, simply put, it's just I'm

12:42

not making these decisions, Giano, I'm not

12:44

making these decisions. I'm not making these moves.

12:46

I'm not I'm not in front

12:48

of the wheel. You know, one of the

12:50

greatest spiritual challenges I've had my

12:53

entire adult life has been the spiritual

12:55

challenge and requirement really of surrender.

12:58

Because it's like, if I'm trying to drive the bus

13:01

and guys trying to drive the bus, we're not

13:03

gonna get to where we're going, right,

13:05

So I had to humble myself,

13:08

humble my ego, humble my so

13:10

called intelligence to surrender.

13:14

You know, you you mentioned something to

13:16

me here, and it reminds me of something

13:18

that Dr Bill wants and my pastor back home

13:21

says a lot we've been to this church. He

13:23

says, it's not me, is God

13:25

in me. He's doing the work. So that

13:28

really I think adjusted my thinking

13:30

as you said that. But you also said

13:32

a couple of other things that stuck out to me, one

13:35

being you're used to being the person

13:38

that drives. We'll just call

13:40

it a private jet, a fancy one. And

13:42

when you look to make a decision,

13:44

it's like being on a football field. You're already

13:47

looking at the other end and we know how many

13:49

well, I don't know how many yards it is. You do. You're the sports

13:51

sports person, but you're looking

13:54

way ahead. And

13:56

how hard is it for you to really

13:58

let go and just let God guide you?

14:00

I think that got to be a very difficult, very

14:03

difficult decision for you, because you're always

14:05

in the front seat of your life, your career,

14:09

and all of your personal life, all of those

14:11

things. You're really flying the plane. So how do

14:13

you how do you adjust to that? It's been

14:16

my age and life experience,

14:18

I guess most of than the number of my age. It was

14:20

hard for me three years

14:23

ago, it was hard for me five

14:25

years ago. It's not hard for me now because

14:28

I just trust him so implicit. How could I

14:30

not, yes, ma'am,

14:32

because you're not. And that's not easy to say to

14:34

your question. So I don't want to oversimplify your question,

14:37

because it's real. This used to be a serious

14:39

spiritual struggle for me because I

14:41

felt in my heart I wanted

14:43

to be obedient and follow God's calling. But I'm

14:45

like, God, what you're doing? You know, like

14:47

that don't look like move Um.

14:50

But he's been so right, he's

14:53

been so consistent, he's

14:55

been so forward thinking,

14:58

and things I never thought about, never

15:00

thought about being a reality TV And all the years

15:02

you've ever known me up and until

15:04

this point, had you ever heard me talk about no reality

15:06

never not pitching

15:08

one, not starting one, not going to be on

15:10

an existing one. That was not my plan.

15:13

There are other things I've wanted to do in the business.

15:15

Um, you know, write the book, do this, do

15:18

that, maybe host the game show, a judge

15:20

show. Dad, you never heard me talk about

15:22

no reality show. So when that

15:24

opportunity so quote quote

15:26

randomly popped up, I knew

15:28

it couldn't be anything but God, and

15:31

so it was easy to trust it. And then when

15:33

in thirteen years they've never

15:35

had a black woman, not one,

15:38

And of all of the thousands,

15:41

tens of thousands of incredible,

15:44

beautiful, brilliant, super

15:46

wealthy black women they

15:48

could have picked, they picked me. Come

15:50

on, that wasn't them picking me, That was God

15:52

picking mee am I

15:54

to say no to God? So

15:57

that is such a fresh take and perspective.

16:00

I think a lot of people, especially

16:02

those who have always viewed

16:04

their careers, simply put me in their hands.

16:07

Not to say that you didn't work hard, that you weren't

16:09

exceptional in so many different

16:11

ways, not to say any of those things

16:13

aren't the case, but there's a lot of exceptional

16:16

people out there that don't know it, or there's

16:18

a lot of exceptional people out here who here who

16:20

think they can do everything just on their

16:22

own without God. And you're not one

16:24

of those people. I know, you're one of the most

16:26

brilliant people that I know, and I think you're one of the

16:28

most brilliant people that a lot of people know. So

16:31

you know, it's not a unique experience for me.

16:34

But let's let's let's go to just the foundation

16:36

of you, your mom right before

16:39

getting into the big issues of the day of the

16:41

show and all of that which we're gonna get into. And I thank

16:43

you for spending the time you were raised by a

16:46

single mother who wasn't formally

16:48

educated but was still a small business

16:50

owner. Can you tell us what

16:52

it was like growing up with Mama Gloria,

16:55

who who I love in the door personally,

16:58

but she's she's

17:00

a tough person to grow up. She's very

17:02

tough. She believes in discipline, she

17:05

believes in hard work. Um, that discipline,

17:07

some kind sometimes came at brute

17:09

force. Um.

17:11

You can debate the merits of that in a modern

17:13

society, but I can tell you it was. It

17:16

was what was done at the time she

17:19

you know, and one of the things she did, you know, it's

17:21

old school stuff, but you know, she and

17:24

my aunt's may they rest in peace. They literally

17:26

taught me how to pray like

17:28

that was a part of my upbringing, was getting on my

17:30

knees at night and saying

17:32

the Lord's prayer. And while as

17:34

a kid, you don't really not necessarily know

17:38

the significance of that, or at least I didn't.

17:40

Um, it was once you start living life,

17:42

once you started going through some things, whether

17:45

it's in school or at summer jobs

17:47

or work like that, that's when

17:50

my mom's tuteledgg really started

17:52

showing up for me because she, you

17:54

know, maybe it was partly because I was raised

17:57

with a single mom. She was very clear

17:59

on my heavenly father. You

18:01

know, that's a term I don't know that we spend

18:04

a lot of time on in a modern society. But

18:06

there's such thing as a heavenly father who will

18:08

do two things. Always provide

18:10

and protect. Oh I like that. I

18:12

like that provide and protect yea. So it's

18:14

one of those things. And then there's just certain things, like some

18:17

things that come top of mind. If you take one step, God

18:19

will take too. I believe that

18:21

with my spirit Giano Caldwell. I see

18:23

it evidence in every aspect of my life. I'll

18:25

give you this. But I was desperately trying

18:27

to get on any platform. Right,

18:29

So this is back eleven. I'm

18:32

transitioning from the courtroom as a practicing lawyer

18:34

to trying to be a national international broadcaster.

18:37

Nobody would put me on a segment like it was a

18:39

struggle to get on hoof Post Live back when

18:41

that was a thing, And so Mom

18:44

said, I would call or be frustrated like

18:46

I'm so talented, I'm so good, I'm so smart. I got

18:48

this lottery nobody's doing. She said, have you taken

18:50

your step? Because until you take

18:52

your step, God can't move. I

18:54

said, all right. So then my mandate g

18:57

was every single day at least

19:00

in outreach points. So

19:02

whether that's eve, cold emailing producers,

19:04

cold calling networks, sending

19:06

out cover letters, resumes, clips,

19:08

tapes that every day for

19:10

I'm talking about nine ten months, and

19:13

it would mostly go unanswered. But

19:15

I felt like if I don't do my steps,

19:18

he can't move. I believe

19:20

that now, even now where God has blessed

19:22

me to be you know me, every day,

19:24

I'm hitting up so and so, so and so. I would

19:26

be great for this role. I would

19:29

love this job. And I'm talking about some high level

19:31

power playing executives, because

19:33

who am I to sit back with arrogance

19:35

and complacent energy and

19:38

think that things are old to me? I

19:40

just I just don't believe it. And you're right. All of that goes

19:42

back to my mother, who I saw bust

19:44

her ask pardon my French, to make

19:46

sure that she and her child had everything

19:49

we needed and most everything we wanted. So,

19:51

you know, when she came uh to

19:53

to get me a twenty three years old, and we you

19:56

know ran, you know, started setting

19:58

up household with just me and her. This is a woman

20:00

who worked three jobs at one time. This is

20:02

a woman who put herself the beauty school while

20:04

driving the bus for public schools at five o'clock

20:06

in the morning, and while running packages for

20:08

ups at night, you

20:11

know. So that's the stock from which

20:13

I come from. So I don't know anything

20:15

but hard work, and I only know God to reward

20:17

hard work. Amen, and

20:20

you, in some ways, while your mom was

20:22

riding driving that bus at five am,

20:24

you were kind of getting up and pulling your own

20:26

sereal you were reading and you were

20:28

what six years old of the time. Yeah, I

20:31

was kind of being a hot mess too. I don't know if you remember toaster

20:33

strudles. Yeah, five

20:37

strudals pastries and then you get five

20:39

packs of icing to go with each

20:42

strudal. Well, I remember him on TV. We

20:44

weren't wealthy enough to have them, so I can

20:46

only take your work. You're

20:51

so silly. Well, I remember when we were

20:53

wealthy enough to get the actual toaster strudles,

20:55

um, not the off bringing, which we did that too,

20:58

But you're supposed to get one pack of busting for

21:00

each strudle. And I was such a little badass

21:02

kid. This was like the worst thing I would do. I would eat

21:05

all five icing packs at

21:07

one time and then be really

21:09

sad the rest of the week when I would have a dry

21:11

as pastry. But

21:14

that was the kind of stuff you do when your mom leaves

21:16

and five of the morning, just

21:18

you making yourself breakfast, like

21:20

you said, reading, trying to finish homework, and then getting

21:22

on a school bus as a latch key kid. Yeah.

21:25

Absolutely, I got Ebony K. Williams

21:27

with me Real Housewives of New York as

21:29

well as a former host on Fox News

21:31

Channel. I'm sure y'all enjoying the conversation.

21:34

Stick with us. We'll be back right

21:36

after a quick break. How

21:41

was the impact of, you

21:43

know, I know, single mom. How was the impact

21:45

of being raised without a

21:48

father, not knowing who

21:50

your dad was doing. You know, you're

21:52

a young woman. You were doing pageants and

21:54

of course I'm sure a lot of young men

21:57

as you were growing up, we're trying

21:59

to get your attention. Your really a beautiful woman.

22:01

How was that experience of not necessarily

22:04

having a dad to talk to about the decisions that you

22:06

were gonna make, or having that figure in there to

22:08

tell you outside of your mom, how beautiful

22:10

you are, how talented you are, and all

22:12

of those things that some people received from their

22:14

father figures as young women. Absolutely,

22:16

and listen, my mom did did an incredible

22:19

job to to make sure that she was providing and

22:21

protecting as best she could. But you know,

22:23

even today, you know it's hard for her to because

22:26

she sulf deeply loves her daughter. She

22:29

can't father. It's an impossibility

22:32

for a woman, any woman, to father.

22:35

And I think that's recent through therapy

22:37

and through prayer and through you know, my work at the Hoffman

22:39

Institute, Gianno that I've just recently when

22:41

I said recent time about the last two or three years, being

22:44

able to sit with the pain and

22:47

the reality that not having

22:49

that male figure in my life

22:52

to tell me those things. You are

22:54

beautiful, you are high valued,

22:56

you are special, You deserve

22:58

the very best. Man this puts

23:01

himself in front of you must come to this

23:03

level, um, Otherwise he's not

23:05

deserving. When you don't have a man to tell

23:07

you that and affirm that, you're operating

23:10

on un an imagination

23:12

really so literally. You

23:14

know, when I showed up him, you know, my first marriage,

23:17

I had no idea what I was doing because I

23:19

had not seen it, you know. And

23:21

that's not an excuse, that's just the reality.

23:23

UM. As I now prepare for my

23:26

second and final marriage,

23:28

God Willie, UM,

23:30

I think a lot about that, g I think a lot about

23:33

you know what my expectations

23:36

of my not only husband,

23:38

but I'm choosing the father of my child,

23:41

you know, and what does that look like? What elements

23:43

need to be there? And it is a journey,

23:46

and it's something that I have to talk to you about. My other

23:48

men in that are in my life. And I don't

23:50

do a whole lot of male platonic

23:53

friends because you know, it's just not

23:55

the vibes. A

23:58

lot of people we operate with a agendas, um.

24:01

But but

24:04

but the ones, the handful of men that

24:06

I love and trust deeply like that I

24:08

have to defer to you. You know, what does

24:10

that look like? What does that energy feel like? Because I

24:12

didn't grow up with it, gen I didn't and

24:15

so you know, I have to mourn the loss

24:18

that I did not have that growing up. I

24:20

am now, like I said, almost thirty eight

24:22

years old. I'm not gonna get it back. I

24:25

have to mourn the loss of that and

24:27

then move forward to say, now I

24:29

do know, as you saw on the episode of Rony

24:31

this week, I do know definitively

24:34

who my father is. I cannot

24:36

tell you how much how

24:38

much just gratitude

24:40

I have for that whatever the relationship

24:43

become. But doesn't become put opinion

24:45

that I know whose I am,

24:48

I know the paternal identity

24:50

from which I come from. For those of

24:52

you who have always grown up knowing that, just

24:54

just take a moment to say thank you God, because

24:56

that is an invaluable piece

24:58

of your identity that, whether

25:01

you know it or not, informs the

25:03

level of validity in which you will walk

25:05

through the world, the level of legitimacy

25:09

and which you walk through the world. And frankly, those

25:11

were things I did struggle with deeply, um

25:13

and probably to some degree still do if I'm

25:15

being vulnerable, because not knowing

25:18

that aspect of who I am and where

25:20

I come from, it's a very hard thing for

25:22

a young girl. And I can only imagine

25:24

and I've seen the impact that it has had

25:26

on many young women, especially

25:28

growing up in the inner city, and it usually

25:31

isn't isn't a great outcome

25:33

and in a number of cases, and you're extraordinarily

25:36

blessed to have grown up without your father.

25:38

Obviously a mom who was there and who worked

25:41

our butt off to put you through pageants,

25:43

school, et cetera, and pushed

25:45

for you to be in these gifted classes because

25:47

you knew that you were you were gifted to. That's

25:49

another part of the journey. But as you

25:51

mentioned last week, I believe

25:53

it was the episode of Ronie Play

25:56

where it is affirmed that

25:58

there at least is an idea of one of three

26:00

men were to be your father. And

26:03

of course you know, I don't want to give away anything

26:05

because this season is still ongoing, but

26:08

did it confirm who it is? Uh?

26:11

Through d n A, I was able to reach

26:13

out to the man that my geneticist predicted

26:15

she was at That woman is phenomenal. Um,

26:17

she's absolutely right. Gee, if you're cool with it, I

26:19

would love to link her contact information

26:22

in your episode notes, UM for anybody

26:24

listening yeah to this and wants to help.

26:27

Linda what's her name? Linda is her

26:29

name, and she is Linda Linda Doyle

26:32

and she is fantastic. Um.

26:34

She she's just blessed again.

26:37

She's called I think that's the word we need to use

26:39

and normalize. Some people are called to do

26:41

certain things in this life. Some people are called

26:43

to the pulpit, some people are called

26:45

to art. Linda is

26:47

called to connect family. So how

26:50

has that that process been? You spoken

26:52

with him? Have you met him? Are

26:54

y'all in contact

26:56

or what does that look like? We have my

26:58

father and I have spoken on the phone and

27:02

listen, it's without

27:04

giving too much away, it has

27:06

not been an easy process.

27:09

I can't imagine what it's like to

27:12

get a phone call after literally almost forty

27:14

years and say hello,

27:16

I am your daughter. And

27:18

by the way, i'm your daughter, and I have a

27:20

pretty significant public profile, and

27:23

I think all of that is a part of it.

27:25

So I believe Giano my

27:27

father's processing. Um.

27:29

I am prayerful that that processing

27:32

continues to the point where we are able to start

27:34

a really special friendship. You know again,

27:36

I don't have an expectation that this man can go back

27:38

in a time capsule and reraise me

27:41

that that for me has come and that has

27:43

gone, and I have to grieve the loss of that. I will never be

27:45

that little girl running into Daddy's arms. It's

27:47

not gonna happen. So I have to grieve the loss

27:49

of that and instead make a new story,

27:52

a new expectation of beauty

27:54

that says that this this man, who, by

27:56

all accounts I hear, is a lovely man. He's

27:58

been a lovely father to my sister, a

28:00

lovely grandfather to my nieces and nephews.

28:03

Um, and a lovely husband to his wife. UM.

28:06

So this is a man of excellence and

28:08

hope that I can have a relationship with him in that capacity.

28:11

Now you mentioned something I think uh

28:14

is of interest here to people

28:16

who are listening. If I and

28:19

was in that situation, which obviously I've

28:21

never been. I don't have any children, but

28:23

if I found out my daughter was Ebney

28:26

Kay Williams, and I learned more about her,

28:28

I would I would want to, Hey,

28:30

I want to meet you as soon as possible. I want to talk

28:32

to you every day. I want to whatever part of your life

28:34

you want to share with me. I would like to spend

28:37

time getting to know and and

28:39

and certainly being there for you because of

28:41

all this lost time, almost almost

28:44

forty years. I'm not

28:46

sure if that's necessarily has happened.

28:48

UM, and you know you correct me if

28:51

if if I'm wrong, because you said you've spoken

28:53

with him on the phone, et cetera, how does that

28:55

make you feel? Um? That that makes me

28:57

sad? Of course I would love to talk to this

28:59

man more equally, but again I don't know

29:02

his process. I'll tell you what I

29:04

don't do, is I don't take it personally, right.

29:06

I know enough to know I've had enough prayer and therapy

29:08

to know this is not a rejection of me personally.

29:10

He doesn't know me to reject me, right, So

29:13

instead this is a reflection of his

29:17

I don't know, potential limitations,

29:19

maybe um an example

29:21

of where where of his pacing and

29:24

listen who. The thing I prayed for

29:26

the most is to know who

29:29

is he? What does he look like,

29:32

what does he sound like? What is his

29:34

name? I have that, and

29:36

if I don't get more than that, I can

29:38

honestly tell you I'm still grateful and I'm very

29:41

A question I've been getting to Gus, like, do

29:43

I regret going on the journey seeing

29:46

you know how it's it's not that scenario

29:48

of we're talking every day, we're hanging out every day. No,

29:50

I don't regret it for one second. It

29:53

really was a painful thing to to

29:55

on every application. I want people to really

29:57

think about this in their own gratitude.

30:00

Every application I've ever filled out my entire life,

30:02

from the s A T S to the

30:04

bar exam to my first marriage

30:07

license to every application

30:09

for the department I've ever filled out, to all

30:12

of it passport when

30:14

it says mother Glory J

30:16

Williams Boom got it father

30:19

for thirty eight years almost it's been

30:21

in a in a For

30:25

the first time in my life, I can put

30:27

a name there. I

30:29

can't tell you how powerful that is for me. And

30:31

I think for those who may take those moments

30:34

for granted, you realize the gravitas

30:36

that it's really illustrated

30:38

in this moment by saying, listen, I

30:40

didn't filled out a number of applications.

30:43

It says hey dad, mom, and I

30:46

couldn't put in my my dad's name. I

30:48

think that's I think that's something for a folks

30:50

who may have a two parent home

30:52

and grew up in and they're like, wow, I didn't even

30:54

think about it to that magnitude. So

30:57

I mean, we certainly appreciate you sharing that,

31:00

and I I want to pick up this

31:02

conversation. Um after the break.

31:04

We need to take a quick break, but when we come back, I'm gonna

31:06

ask Ebony about her time at Fox in a transition

31:09

to reality TV. We'll be back in a second. Welcome

31:15

Back to Alloy with Giano Caldwell. I

31:18

got Ebony Kay Williams

31:20

on the podcast and I couldn't be more excited

31:22

to have someone who's more

31:24

like a sister to me than just about anyone.

31:27

The only thing that separates us is blood,

31:30

and I've not even checked our blood type shed.

31:32

So maybe that's even we

31:35

gotta check that we may

31:37

we may be closer than I even

31:39

think ebony. But I wanted to

31:41

ask you. You've described your time in Fox News

31:44

as challenging, and you said you went there

31:46

to disrupt things, not to be comfortable.

31:48

Could you elaborate on that? Sure?

31:51

You know, when I go back to when

31:53

I first started appearing on Fox, so this

31:55

was it was I never forget

31:57

my very first hit, as we call it in

31:59

the Business segment. It was on the O'Reilly

32:01

Factor. It was live, it

32:04

was with Bill and a

32:07

reverend actually, and it was to

32:09

to debate analyze

32:11

the outcome of the George's Immerman trial.

32:15

And I had actually never even seen The Orilly

32:17

Factor before. But you know, I'm not under a rock.

32:19

I know the gravitas of O'Reilly

32:22

show and the impact on culture, so

32:24

what you know, it was really legal analysis.

32:26

I was able to offer as a skilled trial

32:28

attorney and talk about the

32:31

case and the and the cultural

32:33

impact which was really to me. Why I think O'Reilly

32:35

was such a huge star

32:37

at the network and his show was number one for twenty

32:40

years, it was because people like law, people

32:42

like policy, but people want to talk about how it impacts

32:44

the culture American country.

32:47

So anyways, Um, after

32:49

that hit, you know, it was met with mixed

32:51

review in terms of people agreed, people didn't

32:53

agree. But what almost universally

32:56

I got, Giana was people had never really

32:58

seen anything like me before. Are

33:00

meaning my age demographic, meaning a

33:02

black woman who was not a particularly

33:05

partisan person. I've always been loud,

33:07

proud, registered political

33:10

independent for over eighteen years.

33:12

Somebody who has a background in uh

33:14

in law and unafraid

33:17

to use it. Somebody who has worked in political spaces

33:19

in Louisiana while I was coming up through law school.

33:22

Somebody from the South, from the American South, who

33:24

grew up with those roots and is proud of them.

33:26

So I just reflected and represented

33:28

something very um unique at

33:30

the network, And I knew if I was gonna sit

33:32

in that space and not assimilate

33:35

to everything else that the network was

33:37

used to, that by way of existence

33:39

would be disruptive. So that's what I

33:42

mean when I say I went there to disrupt. That is not

33:44

in any negative connotation, That

33:46

is not in any um malicious

33:48

intent. It is simply to say by showing

33:50

up as something so altogether

33:53

different then what was currently

33:55

on the network in an on air capacity,

33:58

by nature, that is disruptive. You

34:00

know, it's so interesting to me as you talk about Fox

34:02

News. Everything what you're saying is true. You were

34:05

a star at the network. Susan Scott,

34:07

the CEO promoted you to co

34:09

hosting the show, which going from a

34:11

contributor to to to co host,

34:13

especially that quickly, that

34:16

quickly is the key word, shows how much

34:18

that they loved and appreciated

34:21

your commentary. Even though it wasn't a

34:23

super conservative sland. You weren't

34:25

going in as a Republican. You weren't called Roll,

34:28

you weren't Giano Caldwell any of those

34:30

things. And I'm not some super conservative,

34:34

uh car Roll of type figure, but I am a conservative,

34:37

more moderate in my in my point of view.

34:39

But you have legitimate Republican credentials,

34:42

yes, absolutely absolutely, But

34:44

those are the things that you weren't And I think people appreciated

34:47

that because I remember seeing the social media

34:49

they will say, I don't agree with you, but I love the

34:51

way you stayed at your point. I didn't agree

34:53

with you on this or that, but I appreciate

34:56

what you bring to the network. You made me think about

34:58

this differently. I'm glad that my daughter

35:01

can look at the TV and see you on it. Like I've

35:03

seen the emails, I've seen the

35:06

tweets. I've seen all of that over over the years,

35:08

and it really bothers me, Ebony

35:11

that I've seen in places like the Daily

35:13

Mail, Uh, these hit pieces

35:15

that they've done on you with regards to your

35:17

time if Fox News and

35:19

honestly have said, it's just a

35:22

a deluge of lies, just

35:24

negative headlines, lies that

35:26

we're We've seen from the Daily Mail, Uh,

35:29

people saying that, hey, you know, she was too

35:32

much of a talent, you were you expected

35:34

too much or mean the

35:36

staff and all this kind of trash. And I'm like,

35:39

wait a second. Ebony

35:41

and I worked the Fox the same time, and

35:43

people knew that Ebony brought me in.

35:45

And as a matter of fact, when I had my meetings

35:48

with the executives to be brought in from a contractual

35:50

basis, it made me look good that

35:53

I was brought in by Ebony. Kay Williams, and they

35:55

had nothing but great things to say about

35:57

you. We're switching gears in terms of the Fox

35:59

up. It's just really interesting how

36:02

people are reflecting on your time at

36:04

Fox now and bringing up a lot of

36:06

false narratives, things that are just completely and totally

36:08

untrue. How does that make you feel? You

36:11

know, this is not my wheelhouse,

36:13

meaning I'm new to this reality TV space.

36:16

I am used to being a journalist. I'm used to

36:18

being a host of content.

36:20

I'm used to being a lawyer. So in those spaces

36:23

I've always dealt in fact um.

36:25

What is new to me is to be in

36:28

tabloids. Okay, so

36:30

now we've got to have a conversation about what is legitimate

36:32

press um, you know, which I'm

36:34

very accustomed to, have given hundreds of interviews

36:36

throughout my career, maybe even thousands, um,

36:39

in a variety of places. What I'm not

36:41

used to is being the source of tabloid

36:43

fodder and those like

36:46

the Daily Mail and all that ship that

36:48

is a tabloid. And at first I was

36:50

really taken aback, like, oh my god. And

36:52

then you look and see like to your who would

36:54

say such a bow faced lie? And

36:56

then you talk to the journalists and they said, oh, it's

36:59

it's a sort an named source. Okay, come

37:01

on now, come on now, So you'd rather go with

37:03

an unnamed source than the source I provided

37:05

to you, um, which was actually reported

37:07

by Variety on actual legitimate

37:09

publication just recently this week where

37:12

my then supervisor, Mr.

37:14

David Clark, who was then vice president

37:16

and executive producer of all of weekend news

37:18

at Fox News at the time. Uh,

37:21

you know, gave a literal

37:23

glowing report at every turn. You

37:25

know, he volunteerily unsolicited sent me

37:27

an email which was published in a Variety, essentially

37:30

saying I'm paraphrasing, Uh, you were

37:32

spectacular. Um,

37:34

not only on air performance, everyone

37:37

in the d C bureau enjoyed thoroughly

37:39

working with you, to that point

37:41

of how I am with the staff

37:43

and crew. You know, I I knew everybody

37:45

by name, from receptionists

37:48

to cameraman to the gentleman.

37:50

Normally it was gentleman that that that miked us

37:52

as we sit down to do our hits and and

37:55

commentary or anchor a newscast.

37:57

So just the height of of you

38:01

know, slander, that's all it was. G It

38:03

was just slander. And again you know Megan

38:06

McCain, who you know that we both worked

38:08

with at Fox, and I worked with very closely, especially

38:10

during my time guest hosting Are Outnumbered,

38:13

which was you know, the talk show that she hosted, co

38:15

hosted, and Megan on the view

38:17

as of like a month ago, was like listen, I

38:19

don't know what people are there talking about with ebany

38:21

being disruptive in any space in terms

38:24

of not disruptive being a problem.

38:26

I have a quote here and I have David

38:28

Clark's as well, if I may just read

38:31

it for the audience, just great platitudes

38:34

here. I can I thank you enough. And this is David

38:36

Clark emailing you. I can. And I remember

38:38

this email because you sent it to me when you got it. I

38:40

remember it. I have it in my box.

38:43

I remember when you sent it to me, uh years

38:45

ago. He says, I cannot thank you enough

38:48

for making the trick to d C. These

38:50

passed many weekends to co Anchor,

38:52

which is America's newsroom headquarters.

38:54

From there, you did a superb job

38:56

and the DC staff has repeatedly expressed

38:59

it very positive feelings about your performance

39:01

and their dealings with you. Let's catch up

39:04

when you're back in New York. And

39:06

then from Megan McCain on

39:08

the View, of course, she stated this live

39:10

on air. She said, I actually know Ebony. We used

39:12

to work together Fox News. She's actually

39:15

among being the first black

39:17

New York housewive. She

39:20

was also the first black woman to host a

39:22

show in prime time and news. The Ebony

39:24

I know is an extremely intelligent,

39:27

hard working I mean, she was

39:29

like a very good sparring partner on

39:31

my old show Out Number, and

39:33

I always enjoyed being with her on air.

39:36

I'm happy she's bringing diversity and shining a

39:38

light towards a lot of the unconscious

39:40

bias and just bias and racism

39:42

and unconscious racism in particular on reality

39:45

television. This is a woman who could probably

39:47

run for office if she wanted to. So

39:49

I'm happy to see her on reality television.

39:52

I hope she takes that platform and continues on

39:54

because she really is a

39:56

really really always been

39:58

an interesting voice. Is nice to see a highly

40:00

intellectual woman on reality

40:03

television, not that

40:05

there hasn't been any, but well, I just know

40:07

it personally. So those are words from Megan

40:09

McCain um that

40:12

she gave on the View. So again,

40:14

somebody else that knows you. I know you, And of

40:16

course I don't speak for everyone

40:19

in Fox News. I only speak for myself and

40:21

what I heard and what I've seen per my

40:23

time there. Um, But no,

40:25

I mean you, you gotta say it exactly

40:28

that way. So I don't know what other people may

40:30

say behind closed doors, but I know what was

40:33

been publicly stated by executives,

40:35

talent, and staff. So

40:38

that that was just to me. When I read that

40:40

and I saw some of the things that I was like, oh, yeah, this

40:42

is a bunch of bs. And I can't imagine anyone

40:45

who actually worked at Fox saying these

40:47

things, um, that they said

40:49

about you. So that's that was just bizarre.

40:52

And you're right, you're now you're

40:54

a bona fide celebrity. Is not being on Fox

40:56

News. On being on Fox News, you can be famous

40:59

and sir in areas, but now you're

41:02

you're, in my opinion, the most impactful

41:04

housewives in the in the franchise, people

41:06

are talking about real issues now. Granted,

41:09

people do watch reality show

41:12

to see people fall out of the bushes and

41:14

be drunk and throw

41:16

glass. Boy, that's why I wouldn't I wouldn't be

41:18

watching it because it's not my thing. But

41:21

you've done and I don't agree with everything

41:23

you say, Let's be clear about that, as you don't agree with

41:25

everything that I say. But you've

41:27

made an impact that I think most

41:29

people would never expect to come out of a

41:32

housewife franchise, and that I think

41:34

probably is the It's one of the

41:36

biggest honors that you can have. How does that

41:38

that make you you feel? And think about what

41:40

you're doing as people say that, oh, if you

41:42

go into the housewives show, it

41:45

would take you down a peg and your brand

41:47

wouldn't be the same. You would be known as

41:49

the reality TV show a star

41:51

and that's it. You would never be able to get back in news.

41:53

And none of those things are true. No, thank

41:55

God that those things are true. But again, I never

41:57

had those worries. Um.

42:00

Let's go back to when it was announced that I was going to

42:02

be the first black housewife on Real Housewives in

42:04

New York, which was October. Like

42:07

you said, we we had been in deep conversation,

42:09

so it was no surprise to you. But we have

42:11

mutual colleagues, UM

42:13

in various news spaces

42:16

that reached out to you with concern right

42:18

on my behalf. You know, what's your girl doing? Um,

42:21

she's messing up a great career. All these and I

42:24

had those same things. The reason I was never concerned

42:26

about it, worried or fearful. Again,

42:29

Guide had ordered the step. You know, there's that

42:31

meme um ge that talks about

42:33

how people

42:35

are supposed to understand your calling

42:38

because God didn't give it to you on a conference

42:40

call, right, So that

42:43

is deep to me. That is saying that you have people

42:45

at this point in my career I feel just trust

42:47

me. It don't have to make sense to you. It

42:50

don't have to make sense to you. It doesn't have to look logical

42:52

to you. It doesn't have to look like anything that makes

42:54

sense to you. Just trust that. At

42:56

this point in the game, I know what

42:58

I'm doing because I my ear

43:01

is to the Kingdom, okay,

43:03

and he is telling me, by direct order

43:06

and spiritual calling exactly how

43:08

to move and manifest. Again, let's

43:10

go back to my time at Revolt on

43:12

say the culture people said that then, oh

43:14

my god, what are you doing? You're gonna be sitting

43:17

up there with a bunch of rappers and you're better

43:19

than that, and didn't what people need to know about

43:21

me, because again, this is all favorite

43:23

play here. This is not me, this is of God. I'm

43:26

never going to reduce myself to a position

43:29

of a platform. What's going

43:31

to happen is an elevation

43:33

of the platform period.

43:36

Every time, every

43:38

time I could go on the Bad Girls

43:40

Club, know that the Bad

43:42

Girls Club is going to look different with

43:45

me on there. That's just the vibes.

43:48

So I really hope at this point people that

43:50

have watched RONI that have never watched it before,

43:52

which is a litany of people. Have Some

43:54

people turned it off absolutely because

43:57

they are not with anything of substance.

43:59

They only one to see something vapid and ridiculous

44:01

that frankly make some mockery of women. So

44:04

if that's why you watch the show, you are

44:06

probably not enjoying it with me on it because

44:08

it's too much substance, it's too much vulnerability,

44:11

it's too much real life. I'm proud

44:13

of that because that's the future

44:15

of this franchise. See, people have to also understand

44:18

this gena. We are living in a cultural climate

44:20

where things that were acceptable socially

44:23

are just not acceptable anymore. Now we can debate

44:25

the merits of why and how it is a moving

44:27

too fast or but it is what it is. It's

44:29

here. Okay, you can't go into the workplace

44:32

anymore and slap a woman on the booty and say good

44:34

job, and Okay, that's not going

44:36

down anymore. Similarly, in

44:38

in reality television, some of

44:40

the antics, some of the antics

44:43

are not sustainable. So

44:45

the platform has to evolve. And and

44:47

the fact that God has chosen me, called me to do

44:49

this work in this way in front of millions

44:51

of viewers each and every week, that I'm able

44:54

to connect to get people thinking about

44:56

what it is to go and search for their biological parent,

44:58

what it is to celebrate beauty of the bond

45:00

between Black and Jewish communities, what it

45:03

is to celebrate the beauty of black excellence, whether

45:05

it be in Harlem or Alabama, or Atlanta

45:07

or d cit. I'm extremely blessed

45:09

to an honor to serving that space. Well,

45:11

thank you for making that

45:14

statement, Emany, I appreciate it. Now

45:16

we need to take another break. When we come back, I want

45:18

to ask Ebany about some of the

45:20

criticisms of her being

45:22

on the show and what it might have done.

45:26

Uh, we had to talk about it. Some

45:28

of the criticism you're being on the show. We want

45:30

to get into that right after a quick

45:32

break. So

45:37

we got emany Kay Williams on with

45:40

outlaw what Gianno called them excited

45:42

to have her on, and we're talking Real host Wives.

45:44

Now you're in a much different

45:46

place. Reality show is one in which

45:49

people Reality TV is one in which people

45:51

usually see as a a place

45:53

where uncouth people really reside.

45:56

That's whether whether folks that are willing to do anything

45:59

and everything to be famous. And

46:01

clearly you're you were a serious talent

46:03

from the beginning. And just to put things in perspective,

46:06

last year you all tape right

46:09

after right during a period of COVID

46:11

George Floyd, there was a lot

46:13

of conversation going on about race

46:16

and every week I can tell you from working

46:18

at Fox News it was something literally, I

46:20

mean every network you should say,

46:22

uh was talking about it. Local television

46:25

was talking about it. So just putting things

46:28

and that perspective gives you an understanding

46:30

how some of the conversations went on

46:33

the show. Now people have said that,

46:35

uh, you your your two woke,

46:38

your your pre chee. They said, you're

46:40

asserting politics and the Real Housewives,

46:42

and of course people want to just watch white

46:45

women get drunk and throw things and talk

46:47

about having sex and all these other things.

46:50

And they're saying that you've impacted the show

46:52

in a negative way by talking

46:54

about blackness, about talking about

46:57

uh wokeness. And I don't, I don't

46:59

necessarily want to you is that term? I know people who have

47:01

been using him a lot lately. I asked Marca

47:03

Romont Hill on the podcast. I said, will

47:05

do what what is woke? He said he didn't know. And

47:08

I can agree because woke used to be something

47:11

entirely different when people talked about being wokey.

47:13

But usually these highly intellectual

47:15

black people who would say, listen, don't

47:17

treat black women like that, stay woke,

47:20

or I know about our history, our true

47:22

history, stay woke. It wasn't seen as

47:24

the very divisive uh statement

47:27

as it is now, because I mean,

47:29

the term has changed drastically.

47:32

If by woke what people mean is

47:34

operating with a level of race consciousness.

47:38

Um, I proudly do so. Um

47:41

and and and woke even didn't really applaud

47:43

to me because to me, even the genesis

47:45

of the term woke would would reference

47:48

some an awakening, which means you

47:50

are now conscious in a way that you have

47:52

not been before as somebody

47:54

who's from six years old on up was

47:56

raised on the autobiography of Malcolm

47:59

X and the narratives of Frederick Douglas

48:01

and all the things, uh the

48:03

Souls of Black Folks by two Boys and Baldwin

48:06

and all the things I've never been sleep

48:09

that might be for someone else that

48:11

that had an awakening of black consciousness.

48:14

And it's never too late. Do

48:16

you know somebody can get woke today? I guess. But

48:18

I have never been out

48:20

of touch with an extreme academic

48:23

people have to forget, you know, I have a bachelor's

48:25

degree in Black studies. I'm not

48:27

new to this, you know. So

48:29

um, yes, I think that the term people

48:31

are looking for is somebody who is bringing

48:34

an unapologetic and an intense

48:36

level of black consciousness to the show.

48:39

And that has been met with scrutiny. Yes,

48:42

so it's been mat with scrutiny. There they were saying,

48:44

Uh, folks have said critics have said that you're ruining

48:46

the show that by talking about it. Uh

48:49

wokenus if you will, talking about black

48:51

excellence of a lot of folks have said

48:54

that, which is very interesting to me that they would

48:56

even publish something like that, but to

48:58

do each his own to say at especially

49:00

in that light, like oh man, you're talking about black people

49:02

too much. You're having a black Shabbat

49:04

dinner, Like what is this? What are you talking about

49:07

Jewish people for? Why do we care? Like we want

49:09

to see fights and all of that. That didn't make sense

49:11

to me. It's certainly different from what we've

49:13

seen. I'm sure what people have seen on

49:15

the show before. So you know, I get

49:17

that part, But what is your response when

49:19

people say that you're you're ruining the show?

49:22

Like, I just don't. I don't get that

49:24

piece because you've made some interesting comments which

49:26

I thought were valid. You talked about how

49:29

it's the producers that set

49:32

up the show. They edit everything in a particular

49:34

way, so a week after week there can be

49:36

conversations that can either be shared

49:39

in its full detail or it can

49:41

be briefe um, you made

49:43

mention mention of those things. You also

49:45

talked about how one of

49:47

the most popular franchises, the Real Housewives

49:50

of Atlanta, their ratings are

49:52

dropping in people are now you know, COVID

49:54

isn't over, but people are now getting the freedom

49:57

to go out of the house. So who's necessarily sitting

49:59

there watching television every

50:01

night. We don't know because they've been locked in the house

50:03

for eighteen months. So you know, what

50:05

is there? So what is your response to that? I

50:09

think people, you know, need to just

50:11

really relax. Um, you know, and

50:13

I think so and or say

50:15

what you really mean, right, which is not

50:18

that Oh no, she's

50:20

ruining the show with all of this race talk

50:22

or black consciousness talk or black excellence

50:24

talk. Say what you mean, which

50:26

is we're totally happy

50:29

when the show centers on white

50:31

excellence. I'll give you an example. There

50:33

was a season where my cast mate Sonia Morrigan took

50:35

everybody to Philadelphia to see the Morgan

50:38

Library, you know, of her her

50:40

marital family. Uh, the JP Morgan

50:42

Chase Bank family. Um, we're all too happy

50:45

when Ramona pulls up at the Learning Annex

50:47

to to listen to people talk about

50:50

how to have it all. Those are white

50:52

centric events,

50:55

Um, where no one's drunk, no one's falling

50:57

into bushes. Their academic and educational

50:59

and nature and nobody had a problem with those things.

51:02

But I have one Harlem night dinner around black

51:04

excellence and Harlem Renaissance, and it's a problem

51:06

come on, Know what you are bored with

51:09

is that you are understandably

51:12

conditioned to a narrative

51:14

that centers around whiteness. And

51:16

when a black woman, a first season housewife,

51:19

has the audacity to move that central point

51:21

to one of blackness, you are

51:23

angry, you are upset, and you

51:26

don't want to be part of it. And that's what's happening.

51:28

And I can accept that, but I would prefer

51:31

people be honest about it. G and also miss

51:33

me with the um oh, I only

51:35

watched this show for fun times, shenanigans

51:38

and antics. That's not true

51:40

either, because some of the higher rated

51:42

seasons of Ronie dealt with divorce, dealt

51:44

with bankruptcy, dealt with alcoholism,

51:48

sobriety, arrest, felony,

51:50

arrest of assaults of police officers. Come

51:53

on, now, you know, so no these

51:55

shows and that's just Rony, that's just Real

51:57

Housewives of New York. You go to Beverly Hughes, you're talking about

51:59

Sue side talk. You know, these

52:02

are some serious ass issues that are addressed

52:04

on Real Housewives for years. It's

52:06

the audacity to make them centered around

52:09

blackness on a show that is a not all

52:11

black cast. Because Atlanta did

52:13

the same thing. You know, we saw Porsche Williams

52:16

protesting UM with you

52:18

know, several collective action groups

52:20

around Brianna Taylor and so forth. We

52:23

saw Married to Medicine going to the

52:25

march on Washington and because their physicians

52:27

running COVID testing sites, which was beautiful

52:29

to see. You know. So certain

52:32

audiences tolerate that very and celebrated

52:35

even in a way that this Real Housewives of

52:37

New York audience has not. Yeah,

52:39

that's that's interesting. And I'm also interested

52:42

in why Romona Singer has responded

52:45

in a way that she has of with some

52:48

of that come and she made her around the Black Shabbat

52:50

dinner and some of these other scenes

52:53

that I've seen. Has been really interesting

52:55

to watch how she responds

52:58

and isolates her self when the conversations

53:01

occur. It's just kind of weird to

53:03

see that. But did that shock you

53:05

to see how she responded to you when you you have

53:07

these kind of conversations. I was still

53:10

at that point getting to know Ramana Gianna,

53:12

So I don't know if it's so much it shocked me. It's just,

53:15

you know, I'm a very pragmatic person. Um

53:17

So at that point I was still just obtaining

53:20

really evidence of who she was as a woman

53:22

and as a person. So when you know she made

53:24

the comments about false equivalences

53:26

between white and black women in maternal mortality

53:30

and just other you know, ridiculous

53:32

comments that she made, um the dismissal of

53:34

the Jewish oppression

53:36

here in America, the dismissal certainly of

53:38

of the black experience

53:41

in America, which can be both oppressive

53:43

and extremely liberating. And though

53:45

it was I surprised to know what I was

53:48

was taking notes. You know, So now listen,

53:50

people tell you, not just Ramona, all

53:53

people, all people Gianna will tell you

53:55

exactly who they are. You have

53:57

to just be quiet long enough to listen. And

53:59

then when they tell you who they are as the great

54:01

my angels said, says, believe them

54:04

the first time. So that's all I have

54:06

to say about that. It was

54:08

so interested in knowing how you felt about

54:10

that, because that one would look problematic

54:13

to me just seeing a response, But that to me personally,

54:15

I don't know how everybody else thought

54:17

about it, but it was just odd

54:19

at best. It was just it just

54:21

look insane to me. But anyway, moving on,

54:24

before we let you go, because We've been talking for a

54:26

bit, and I know you've got things to do before we let

54:28

you go. I wanted to get your take

54:31

on some of these headlines that are out

54:33

there this week. Just get your thoughts on

54:35

it, if you would. As

54:38

I'm sure you saw, the Taliban took

54:40

over Afghanistan right after President

54:42

Biden with true are remaining troops

54:44

from there. The scenes that

54:46

we saw, oh my gosh, at the airport

54:49

was shocking. Desperate Afghans

54:51

were literally trying to hang onto

54:53

a U. S Military plane as they flew away,

54:56

and several thousand Americans remained trapped

54:58

in Afghanistan. Are your thoughts on a debacco

55:01

there? Listen? You know what

55:03

I'm not gonna do is Monday morning, Quarterback.

55:05

I think the basics of what you said heartbreaking,

55:08

devastating. UM,

55:11

it's just it's it's it's a nightmare.

55:13

UM. My heart and soul and prayers

55:16

go out to the Afghan people, particularly

55:19

the women and girls there whose lives

55:22

will never be the same. We know that, UM,

55:24

none of the people's will, but the women and

55:26

girls, it's it's going to be extra horrible. UM.

55:28

As it relates to the politics, you know, I'll

55:30

echo Kondo Leeza Rice, who

55:33

knows more about geopolitics than most we've

55:36

had four administrations. UM,

55:38

really air to

55:40

put it very modly, and uh

55:43

contribute to devastation to probably put

55:45

it more accurately as it relates to

55:47

what we are currently seeing in Afghanistan.

55:50

And that's not to take anything away from the responsibility

55:53

of Biden. But I'm not about to sit up here neck like

55:55

Trump is not also responsible, Barack

55:57

Obama is not also responsible, and George,

56:00

of you Bush, it's not also responsible. Um.

56:02

And and all we can do is really pray that God

56:04

forgives us in our nation for our contribution

56:07

to the depth station of those people. Yeah,

56:09

and you're right there. There was a number

56:11

of presidents who had a hand in this, going

56:14

all the way back to George George

56:16

W. Bush for sure. And obviously

56:18

now Biden is the president.

56:20

And Biden is the one who said on the world stage

56:23

when he was running for office that he would be the

56:25

adult in the room. He would talk

56:27

to our allies. And apparently it was reported that

56:29

he's not had any conversations with our allies

56:31

and he and I get it.

56:33

You're right, you know, you know that he

56:35

has taken this, but he really is to

56:38

blame for this withdrawal, which is

56:40

unnecessary and not what I would expect

56:42

from a US sitting president who

56:44

has so much experience in this place, being

56:47

in foreign policy for a decade after decade.

56:49

So I definitely get

56:51

your point there, and I

56:53

just wish that the people

56:55

can work together. We can have a Bipartistan conversation

56:58

about this. We do need to care of those

57:01

interpreters who helped us. We

57:03

need to get our military equipment out if

57:05

we can, if we can, we need to really

57:08

not surrender the stage to the to

57:10

domestic not domestic, but a terrorist

57:12

operation on as a Taliban. So I just found

57:14

that to be just embarrassing

57:17

and horrific that President Biden

57:19

has allowed this to go on. It's really troubling

57:21

for me, especially as being someone who was supposed

57:24

to be such a serious leader on these issues. Yeah,

57:26

I mean it's unconscionable. Um book

57:29

stops with Biden, no doubt. But

57:31

the problem is every American president said they

57:33

were gonna do so this was going to happen regardless,

57:36

you know, we could whoever did

57:39

this, whoever pulled out completely, this

57:41

was going to be the result. I don't really,

57:43

if I'm being real with you, Giano see much

57:45

better of an outcome because

57:48

so many of the on the ground Afghani

57:50

people. Um, it just wasn't.

57:52

I don't think the numbers were there to prevent

57:54

this kind of outcome. I really don't. Um.

57:56

Could there have been more diplomatic conversation, sure,

57:59

um, with that made a difference, I'm not sure. UM.

58:02

What I do believe is this was

58:04

flawed from the onset. You know,

58:06

I think when you decided you're going to go occupy

58:09

foreign terrain in this way, there

58:11

has to be a much deeper, more coherent, long

58:13

term strategy, and there never was one from

58:16

the onset, and that's what we're seeing

58:18

now. Then the question is who's

58:20

children are we gonna send over there to die?

58:23

You know who's going? So

58:27

it's a it's a terrible outcome all around.

58:29

Yeah, no, no question about it. And

58:32

you know, I personally disagree that it

58:34

would be the same way no matter who the president

58:36

was. But that's another conversation for

58:38

another day. Ebany, I want to thank you so much

58:40

for joining me on No no, no, no, no

58:42

no no.

58:49

I

58:55

just want to question I'm curious around

58:58

who and you know What're you about to put a name on it?

59:00

Whose leadership would have made

59:03

it look different? Do you think? And what would that leadership

59:05

intended? A president who was willing

59:07

to take the advice from the military officials

59:09

on the ground. The military was against many

59:11

officials in the military way against doing

59:14

the withdrawal this way, meaning withdraw

59:16

all at once. Right

59:18

first and foremost, you're the president of the free world. You

59:20

should talk to our allies. Our allies, UM

59:22

have people on the ground there as well.

59:25

You're the biggest, the most powerful country.

59:27

So there should have been an ongoing conversation, right,

59:29

Okay, So let's let's play out the hypothetical.

59:31

So and so let's move let's move the names,

59:33

because I think that that flusters the conversation.

59:36

President A talks to the allies.

59:38

The allies say, um, maintain

59:41

some true presidents otherwise

59:44

it's gonna be a ship show. That's that. That's

59:46

that's what happened, right. How My

59:48

question, though, is what president is

59:50

going to continue to come to the American

59:53

people and the American military

59:55

families and say your

59:58

sons and daughters and non binar are identifying

1:00:01

soldiers are still over here in

1:00:03

a country where this country is not willing

1:00:05

to stand up in the same way.

1:00:07

How how long does that go on? That's only that's

1:00:09

the only question. I Mean, one can argue,

1:00:12

hey, we should have left a long time ago, and I think

1:00:14

that's a reasonable argument to have. However,

1:00:16

one could argue we should have never gone,

1:00:19

and that's true too. I mean, we can we can talk about

1:00:21

that, and we can talk about how big of a failure was

1:00:23

for George W. Bush to have been pushing the

1:00:25

war to begin with, and how we were alied

1:00:27

to That's true. But you then elect

1:00:30

other people, and I get it. You take President

1:00:32

be name out of it, and you just insert any

1:00:34

president if you're gonna have somebody who said, I'm

1:00:37

I'm a foreign policy wonk. I'm

1:00:39

the guy who knows how to get it done. I know

1:00:41

all the world leaders, and I talked to them regularly.

1:00:44

And then you get on the world

1:00:46

stage and you refuse to

1:00:48

draw listen to the military officials

1:00:51

who are on the ground. Who understands that's what the previous

1:00:53

president said, I would listen to the military

1:00:55

officials on the ground before making the

1:00:58

decision because he wanted to draw that on the

1:01:00

troops too. But you can't is

1:01:03

the solution of forever occupancy,

1:01:05

because that's what Obamas. It isn't.

1:01:07

It isn't. But you should have ensured that

1:01:09

you've got now keep people and you've worked

1:01:12

with our allies to do it safely. The

1:01:14

military should have been the last ones to go

1:01:16

so the Taliban didn't overtake the

1:01:18

region as quickly as they did. That's

1:01:20

where it becomes problematic in my view

1:01:22

and in my eyes, and especially when

1:01:25

our president knew about all

1:01:27

of this stuff Wednesday and Thursday,

1:01:29

and then by that Friday he went on vacation, Like what

1:01:31

who does that? Another conversation,

1:01:37

he went to Kim Code on COVID, This

1:01:39

wasn't people and more

1:01:43

people than Afghanistan? The hell are you talking about?

1:01:45

G And let's be let's

1:01:47

be clear. He's not the president, he's a U. S.

1:01:49

Senator. And yes, he should have stayed put. He

1:01:51

shouldn't have left. He shouldn't have left. But again,

1:01:54

he shouldn't have left. But again, but again, that's

1:01:56

not one excuse or another. Conservatives

1:01:58

attack their crews, just like conservatives

1:02:00

are attacking Joe Biden for

1:02:02

going on vacation. But again, and this is the

1:02:04

problem with our whole ship. Right, why can't

1:02:07

conservatives attack tag Cruise?

1:02:09

And why can't Democrats attack Joe

1:02:11

Biden? See see the hypocrisy?

1:02:14

Yeah, but Democrats aren't attacking Joe Biden

1:02:16

and making every excuse in the book. And conservatives

1:02:18

were not attacking tech crew. They actually were

1:02:20

a number of conservatives attack And

1:02:23

let's be clear. I was one of the ones saying, what were

1:02:25

you thinking going on vacation in

1:02:27

the middle of COVID. It's a horrible look.

1:02:30

We can talk about the outlier partisans

1:02:32

that have the balls and the political

1:02:35

integrity to attack, not

1:02:37

even attacked, to hold their all party leadership

1:02:40

accountable, y'all outliers when

1:02:42

it does happen, When

1:02:45

are we as a nation giannao going

1:02:47

to put people, policy

1:02:50

and integrity over partisanship.

1:02:53

And that's why I can't rock with these political parties.

1:02:55

I'm just telling you, maybe when you run for office,

1:02:57

we can do that. Are you running for office? And any point

1:03:00

I probably what that could look like, I can't

1:03:02

imagine because I'm not a partisan

1:03:05

hack and I just the

1:03:07

politics is a money game. So how

1:03:10

does one get enough money to run successfully

1:03:13

without playing the political partisan

1:03:16

game? And that's that's that's when

1:03:18

we figured that out as a nation, we might

1:03:20

get on track to avoid this type of

1:03:23

global catastrophe

1:03:25

as we are seeing now in Afghanistan, and we

1:03:27

might get on tracks to avoid the domestic

1:03:30

implications of a pandemic that

1:03:32

could have been handled in a much better way a lot sooner.

1:03:34

In with that, Emony

1:03:37

kay Williams ends with the soliloquy

1:03:42

for your money, brock and

1:03:45

providing us with the platform that if

1:03:47

you decide to run for office one day, I'm

1:03:50

sure this would be a part of the conversation, and

1:03:52

I think that if you did, we we

1:03:54

would be well served. So thank

1:03:56

you so much for joining me

1:03:59

and all the love and respect

1:04:01

for you and what you're doing. Even though I don't

1:04:03

agree with everything you do or say, but

1:04:06

you know you've been a very consistent light

1:04:08

in my life. Um you tell me when you think

1:04:11

I'm wrong, you give me constructive criticism, and

1:04:13

you do it in love. So for

1:04:16

people who thought that this was gonna be some big

1:04:18

debate or I was gonna got

1:04:20

you interview for my last one, it was gonna

1:04:22

be some crazy explosive thing. That's

1:04:25

not what I'm gonna do with my sister ever, never

1:04:28

gonna do that with her, and you

1:04:30

know I have just the greatest respect for you and in

1:04:32

appreciation, so thank you for joining

1:04:34

me as we in the season.

1:04:37

On the fiftieth episode, I love you

1:04:39

so much to us and wishing you all

1:04:41

the light and all the flowers that

1:04:43

you're gonna get from here on out. I'm

1:04:45

so happy to see it. All the love and all the

1:04:48

light, bro, talk to you, so congrats. I

1:04:53

want to thank my sister Eddy Kay Williams again

1:04:55

for a great interview. If you enjoying the

1:04:57

show, please leave us a review and read us with five stars

1:04:59

on that podcast. To hear more of my episodes

1:05:02

and get my weekly newsletter, go to English Street

1:05:04

sixty dot com s last Gianna. You can

1:05:06

also find me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and parlor

1:05:08

at Gianno Caldwell. And if

1:05:11

you're interested in learning more about my story,

1:05:13

you please pick up a copy of my bestselling book,

1:05:15

which Ebany is actually in. It

1:05:17

is called Taken for Granted, How Conservatism

1:05:19

Can Win back to the Americans that Luberalism failed.

1:05:22

Especially thanks to our producer Drew Steale,

1:05:24

researcher Aaron Kleveman, and executive

1:05:26

producers Debbie Meyers and speaker, New Gingwich.

1:05:29

All part of the Ginger Street sixty network.