0:00

Up next out Wow, what Jo

0:02

called part of the gang? Which switch? What

0:05

can we do for those who have done everything

0:08

for us? I'm talking about veterans,

0:11

jobs, mental health, homelessness.

0:14

Too. Many of those who have served this country

0:17

are suffering and need our help. So

0:20

what can we do? The answer?

0:23

So much and there's no

0:26

time to waste. This is out Allowed

0:28

with Gianno called me. Welcome

0:35

back to Allow with Gianno called well and Honora

0:37

Memorial Day. I've got a very special show for

0:40

you guys this week that I'm really looking

0:42

forward to. My guests today

0:45

is a relative of mine, someone

0:47

who I talked to in my time and

0:49

need is specially My guest

0:51

is Dr Olamenttoyan Hines, the

0:54

owner of Peace Amount Counseling,

0:56

Coaching and Consulting. A licensed professional

0:58

counselor alone. Towyan has more than twenty

1:01

years of military service and recently retired

1:03

from the Illinois National Guard as a brigade

1:06

chaplain. On top of that, she

1:08

also happens to be my cousin.

1:10

As I mentioned earlier, Olaetwyan

1:13

has so many interesting ideas

1:15

and powerful insights into how we can

1:17

better help those who have done so much

1:20

for us. Veterans and their families.

1:22

We're going to discuss what can be done in terms

1:24

of jobs, mental health, homelessness,

1:26

and so much more. This episode

1:29

means a lot to me and I hope you will tune in.

1:31

And now I want to welcome Reverend

1:34

Dr Ola Antoyan Hines. Thank you so

1:36

much for joining me on out lot with Gianno Calldwell.

1:39

Thank you for having me appreciate it

1:41

absolutely so. You are my

1:43

cousin, but you're more like my sister

1:45

than my cousins, So

1:47

so we got a really strong relationship

1:50

and I'm very thankful. Before

1:52

we discuss how to help

1:54

veterans and some other issues, why

1:56

don't you tell our listeners a bit about yourself.

1:59

What's your background and how did you come

2:01

into military service. Well,

2:03

I just retired in September

2:06

from the military after twenty six years.

2:09

I enlisted as a private and

2:12

worked my way through Enlisted

2:15

Officers Candidate School became

2:18

a military chaplain. So when

2:20

I retired, I retired at the rank of major

2:22

as a brigade chaplain. In

2:24

addition, I am

2:26

an educator and faith community

2:29

as well as a minister, and I'm also

2:32

a licensed clinical professional counselor

2:34

serving veterans and their families. Amen,

2:37

not as beautiful. And I know the governor of Illinois,

2:39

the former governor, he created a position

2:42

for you to lead the Illinois

2:45

National Guard. Is that right? Well, it

2:47

wasn't. That wasn't the position

2:49

to lead. It was. There were a couple of positions

2:52

that were offered at

2:54

the duty operational support. One

2:57

was the Wounded Warrior Project

3:01

or Wounded Warrior Ministry Project, not

3:03

to be confused with the Wounded Warrior Project,

3:05

the formal organization. It

3:07

was the Wounded Warrior Ministry Project, and

3:09

that program was intended to visit

3:12

ill, injured and wounded service members

3:15

across the United States from

3:17

the Illinois Army National Guards. So

3:20

we had service members who deployed could

3:22

not come back home for a multitude

3:25

of reasons, and it was my responsibility

3:27

to provide a pastoral spiritual

3:29

care to those service members, checking with

3:31

their families. Um I also

3:34

served as family Life chaplain

3:37

for the Illinois Army National Guard and

3:40

providing training, two

3:42

chaplains, and some important

3:44

counseling spiritual counseling to service

3:47

members and their families. Wow, now,

3:49

if you would indulge us a little

3:51

bit on how old were you when you

3:53

joined the service, and what gave

3:56

that desire to join, because

3:58

it's it's a big commitment, and it's

4:00

a life commitment for so many

4:02

people who joined. I joined

4:04

the military when I was nineteen years old.

4:06

I was already in college my

4:09

freshman year, and I

4:11

came home um for summer

4:14

break. And I will tell this

4:16

very quick story. I was up for three o'clock in the

4:19

morning. I couldn't sleep, and there

4:21

was an at that came on for

4:23

the Joint the National Guard. So at three

4:25

o'clock in the morning, I called the recruiter. Um,

4:29

I believe he did answer. And

4:32

to this day, this recruited I I was still

4:34

acquainted. In fact, he

4:36

attended my retirement ceremony vertically.

4:40

And I

4:42

made the choice to join the military. And

4:44

I was longing for something

4:46

more disciplined in my life. My

4:49

family background, as you know, lends

4:51

itself to a lot of pathology

4:55

and just kind of disproportionate. Um,

4:59

how do I say this? Social opportunities,

5:02

professional opportunities, and I wanted to create

5:04

space for myself while I had more opportunities,

5:07

and joining the military provided payment

5:10

for college to

5:12

receive some funds, and um,

5:14

what came out of that for me also was

5:17

a great deal of leadership, learn a lot more

5:19

about myself. It cultivated

5:21

me into the person that I am today. A lot of

5:23

my personality, my person who stems

5:26

from the lessons I've learned

5:29

in the military throughout. So that

5:31

story and three o'clock in the morning and

5:33

calling the recruiter summer of

5:36

my freshman year, going into my sophomore

5:38

year, and the following year actually

5:40

in that June I enlisted, and

5:43

the following January I was

5:45

off to basic training. Now you have more than

5:47

twenty years in military service under

5:50

your belt. What was military service

5:53

like? Was it something that

5:55

you were very concerned because I know

5:57

a lot of times, especially in families like ours,

6:00

people are concerned about sending

6:02

their loved ones out and the possibility

6:04

that something could happen to them

6:07

while they're serving. How was

6:09

that service experience like for you? It

6:12

depends on the period

6:14

of of life or

6:18

season of my military career that

6:20

I was in. While enlisted,

6:23

it was a very different experience. I

6:25

was in college, so I

6:27

was commuting from your

6:29

vine, Urbana to Chicago for

6:31

military training once a month. In addition

6:34

to being a college student.

6:37

Now at the time I was administration

6:40

for my unit, and so

6:42

the responsibilities weren't so

6:45

intense um

6:47

as they had become later. However,

6:50

it was the time away from

6:52

a college students routine. So there

6:55

was this duality of worlds, one

6:57

as a soldier and then the other

7:00

as a student. Then

7:02

I decided I'll become an officer,

7:06

and so here I am still in school

7:08

um in undergrad and going

7:10

away for officers training

7:13

and prepering to become an officer, and

7:15

the intensity of or

7:18

demand on service was different.

7:21

There were lots of expectations around leadership,

7:24

some of which I had not been exposed to. I

7:26

began to learn more about war in combat

7:29

from a from not from an administrative lens.

7:31

Now we're talking about strategy and operation

7:34

and how as an officer the

7:36

expectation to function in

7:38

those conditions and states. And

7:42

then there was the part when I did become an officer

7:45

and the mentality of switching

7:47

from being enlisted to being an officer,

7:50

the expectation of demands, and I

7:52

was a chaplain. What was

7:54

unique to my chaplain cy is that I

7:57

was the first female chaplain candidate

7:59

in the d National Guard Army National Guard

8:02

and the first female chap chaplain,

8:04

first female chaplain candidate, and

8:07

there was this nuance that one

8:09

people had not been exposed

8:11

to women chaplains, and

8:13

there was the cultural component impacted

8:16

by that. So they're

8:19

they're all these Uh, so my dualities

8:21

became more quadrupled

8:24

here. I am still a student, I'm

8:27

now a soldier and officer,

8:30

and I am a chaplain

8:32

and I'm also a woman, and I'm also African

8:35

American. And so throughout

8:38

my career I dealt with

8:41

barriers and I

8:43

will and I had to create I had to work

8:45

hard to create spaces for myself

8:49

to prove um

8:52

not myself to people, but my

8:55

my presence, my

8:57

presence in those spaces, and so I

8:59

worked really hard to accomplish

9:03

and and my passion and taking

9:05

care of service members and families has

9:07

always that's that's my value,

9:10

that's my intrinsic value. So that remained,

9:13

and yet I was dealing with these external

9:15

forces that sometimes made

9:17

that value complex.

9:21

Now that's interesting, and uh,

9:23

for everybody that's listening, they can tell you're clearly

9:25

a super smart person. I

9:28

love your word usage of you

9:30

know, you talk about barriers, and

9:33

so often people deal with barriers in

9:35

life and in multiple ways. But when you're

9:37

thinking about military services, certainly

9:40

an entirely different ball game than

9:42

what I may experiences

9:45

someone who's never been a part of that life. Would

9:48

you mind sharing a little

9:50

bit about what those barriers might

9:52

have been or how did you you handle

9:54

them, because it's, as you mentioned, it's very complex

9:57

situation. I there

10:00

were, but there are so many narratives to tell, and

10:02

I and I will I will point to

10:04

the ones that have been

10:06

turning points for my way

10:09

of being and thinking. I

10:11

recall as a Chaplin

10:13

candidate and having an

10:16

n CEO, and I will say this

10:19

our a caveat, or preface it with

10:21

this that not every person in the military.

10:23

I've had these ex science had some really wonderful

10:26

experiences, but some of these

10:28

are really tough and and to process

10:32

um. And so this n c O,

10:35

I was, I was too received a rewarding. This

10:37

c O was responsible for typing up

10:39

the paperwork I'm in the room. He

10:41

outlast as some people don't deserve, you

10:44

know, different things. Well,

10:46

that was a time when I was going to get out of the military,

10:49

and so I

10:52

was okay with putting

10:55

that aside, only to find out that

10:58

that n c O had not process is my pay

11:00

ford for me to get out, and

11:02

that UM I was still in the military, even

11:05

got promoted while I was on inactive reserve,

11:07

which is what he placed me in and

11:09

which was a blessing in disguise because

11:11

I was still in the military. I got to stay.

11:14

Those years weren't good years but didn't

11:16

count. But it was

11:19

that kind of she It

11:21

was. I was in the Air Defense artillery unit,

11:23

by the way, uh And not that those

11:25

those service members

11:28

are bad, but I have

11:30

to say this, we're in one

11:33

and I was there doing a

11:35

time when the presence of females

11:38

was novice. It was like

11:40

if if ever at all, let

11:43

alone a chaplain or chaplain

11:45

candidate. And so I was a part of a

11:47

time when being

11:50

things that are unfolding now people were

11:52

just whispering about maybe or

11:54

um had their their objections

11:57

too. I've had plenty of

11:59

opportunities where individuals

12:01

would try and sabotage

12:03

certain aspects of my career. I

12:07

remember being on deployment and

12:09

um I deployed Da Kosovo and

12:12

I was the only female chaplain. So this

12:14

was the first time the serving albaiting

12:17

and religious community would have been exposed to a

12:19

female chaplain, and before I even came

12:21

in country, the task force chaplain

12:23

had to inquire of the religious leaders

12:26

where they comfortable having a conversation

12:28

with the female job. We're talking about the moms,

12:32

um, And so it's like

12:34

like in other spaces, you would

12:36

not need permission as

12:38

a professional. My colleagues

12:40

didn't need permission, and then permission

12:43

needed to be asked of me, And

12:46

so those were some of the

12:48

barriers. But they also taught me

12:51

that my voice and my

12:53

presence matters in

12:56

spaces, and I have to

12:59

do well, not to

13:01

perform well to leave an impression

13:04

of see I told you, but to do well

13:06

so that other people who follow

13:09

they have credibility

13:13

after me. I think this lines up

13:15

for me, especially Memorial Day,

13:17

UM, And I apologize if I'm going segue

13:20

Memorial Day coming up, thinking about

13:22

those African American service

13:24

members who lost their life and service.

13:27

When I am dialogue with other

13:29

veterans or service members and to

13:32

hear their narrative of

13:34

the things that they had to overcome

13:36

during their times of service, being called

13:39

out their name and I

13:41

don't mean buddy fran

13:43

Pal, being treated

13:46

unfairly by their

13:48

peers or in community,

13:51

when they when

13:53

when they were out on off post

13:55

or even on post, and

13:57

so when I hear their near

14:00

paratives and the hardships

14:02

they had to experience and

14:05

the hardships I experienced. But over

14:09

time things improve, um,

14:12

nonetheless the way it's

14:14

paved. And so this is my

14:17

experience in the military is a

14:19

part of a legacy of those who

14:21

have gone before me, long long

14:23

before me, prior to Vietnam and World

14:26

War One and World to all of those

14:29

even during Civil War.

14:32

Um, the legacy goes back

14:34

that far. And so I

14:37

in my own career was

14:40

diligent about being the person

14:42

that my ancestors conspect.

14:45

That's really interesting. I want to continue from there

14:47

in a moment right after a quick break. You

14:52

know what's so interesting about what you just said

14:55

is it's it's entirely

14:57

bigger than you, completely

15:00

and totally, and that's whether it be

15:02

and you, operating in your your

15:04

capacity, obviously your professional capacity,

15:07

and what you're doing in the right here and now,

15:10

you are literally creating

15:12

a trail for others. And I think that's

15:14

clearly what services about your fellow

15:16

man or woman ensuring

15:19

that certainly there's space

15:21

for them, and we honor, honor,

15:24

you for that, and certainly

15:26

for everyone that died uh

15:28

in honor of their country. I think this is

15:30

like the greatest sacrifice you can ever give. So I

15:32

really really appreciate that, and I'm thankful

15:34

for your story. Now I know

15:37

faith as played such

15:40

an important and exceptional part of your

15:42

life. How does faith play

15:45

in your role in counseling and

15:47

in by rolling counseling? I

15:50

on function around the practice called psycho

15:52

theological integration and

15:54

what that means incorporating psychology, theology

15:57

or one's belief system

16:00

and bringing those clinical and spiritual

16:02

worlds together. It's really

16:04

done by holding space. Buber has

16:07

this ival concept of the respect

16:09

of the other. There's this mutual positive

16:12

regard, and so in

16:14

that space is very different from being a

16:16

pastoral counselor. It's very different from

16:18

being a Minister's very different from

16:20

being a clinical therapist

16:23

because you are enveloping all

16:25

these worlds not based off of where

16:27

you are, but you're based it off

16:29

of where is this person

16:31

that has allowed me to journey with him.

16:35

So for my for practice,

16:37

that is how it I

16:40

navigated it can be. I've

16:42

worked with everyone

16:45

from Muslims to Wickens

16:48

to Spiritualists to Buddhists,

16:51

Christians. So the spectrum

16:54

of holding space has nothing

16:56

to do with one's denomination

16:58

and has to do with this author to human experience

17:02

that we have. I hold space

17:04

for myself knowing

17:06

that the work I'm doing is for the greater good,

17:10

and I am able to then be present

17:12

with the other, to connect

17:14

with them based off of what their needs are

17:16

so that they can do their work to become

17:18

well. Wow, Okay,

17:21

let me ask you this question because as

17:24

a faith person and what I see

17:26

is totally different than military, clearly. And

17:28

I've never served, uh And I want

17:30

to say unfortunately, because I

17:33

think it's just such a great h

17:35

a great honor to serve. But

17:38

have you noticed, as I've seen across

17:40

the country where there seems to be somewhat

17:43

of a marginalization around faith,

17:46

people of faith, and this

17:48

usurping of of that

17:51

that freedom of religious

17:53

faith to be able to state what you are,

17:55

who you are, and to embrace

17:58

it. You know, in a lot of cases, as people

18:00

are looking to take God out of the constitution,

18:03

take them off the dollar bill, We've

18:05

seen that occur over

18:07

the years. And I would argue that it

18:09

seems as though it's much more prevalent

18:11

than it was previously. Have you seen

18:14

any of that in the military. Have you felt

18:16

as though, you know, you've seen people's

18:18

roles, whether it be you or someone else, marginalized

18:21

because of their commitment to faith or

18:23

their exposing of it. UM

18:25

and the military is quite different. Chaplains

18:28

are in the military

18:30

because we support the free exercise

18:33

of religion. That is our

18:35

that is our one of our responsibilities

18:37

to ensure the free exercise

18:40

of religion. And so the

18:42

exposure I've had with individuals

18:44

of different denominations, my responsibility

18:47

has been to ensure that

18:49

they have the space to practice.

18:51

I either perform or provide performinging.

18:54

I perform according to my tenants of faith

18:57

UM as a Christian and provide

18:59

me. If I have a service member who's

19:02

Buddhist or Wiccan or Ish

19:04

Khan, um

19:06

whatever, then I

19:08

am to ensure that they have space

19:11

and time to practice.

19:14

The caveat to that is as long as it doesn't

19:16

interfere with mission. And I've

19:18

had to navigate that part for them.

19:21

So I've been more of an advocate to ensure,

19:23

well, you know, Friday,

19:27

their prayers need to happen, and

19:30

so what missions are going

19:32

on that allows

19:35

space for individuals

19:37

of practice or sabbath or mass

19:40

any of those any of those experiences.

19:43

So my responsibility, even food

19:45

restrictions to ensure

19:47

that those things are accommodated

19:50

for the service members. As

19:52

it relates to society at large

19:56

transitioning out of the military,

19:59

even though I've serve dually, a

20:01

lot of my mindset shifts towards military

20:04

structure. I find

20:06

that individuals like

20:09

to be able to make their own

20:11

choices about how they like things

20:14

to be, and it's not always

20:16

about collective community consciousness.

20:19

So when

20:21

it comes to this divisive

20:23

stance around the announcement

20:26

respect of perspective

20:28

of religions and removal of certain

20:31

things to create this unified

20:34

structure, I go back historically

20:36

to the reason why things were established

20:38

the way they were from the beginning, and

20:41

the individuals who are protesting these things

20:43

now did not have access or a

20:45

voice in those decisions.

20:48

Now individuals have a voice, and

20:51

they're using that voice to articulate their preferences

20:54

based off of their individual selves,

20:59

not the active often and

21:03

so that is in my mind

21:05

how I'm able to navigate, Well, you want

21:07

this removed because you weren't a part of decision

21:09

making process. Of course you were not,

21:12

And now you have a voice that social justice.

21:14

I can advocate and speak for myself. That

21:17

is what society says, in

21:20

a democratic society says, we have permission

21:23

to do permission. I use that

21:25

very interestingly, of

21:27

course, um, and so people

21:29

do it. So when it comes

21:32

to this perspective around

21:36

how religions are fluid

21:39

or not fluid, or diversified or

21:41

not diversisfied, what's accessible,

21:44

what's not? Um, what is

21:46

labeled or not, it's about

21:48

well, I wasn't a part of the decision making

21:51

process, so now I want to be a part of it

21:53

now. And it doesn't mean systemically

21:56

things will change. It just means that

21:58

people now have a voice and

22:00

that and I appreciate that point

22:03

of view, uh, that they

22:05

want to have a voice. But it seems as though some of

22:07

the voices of because you just mentioned it

22:09

is not the collective so as someone

22:11

who's uniquely disseminating

22:14

whatever message that they feel as most conducive

22:17

to how they believe. But

22:19

it feels as though in some contexts

22:23

that individuals are looking to usurp

22:25

a person's right to express

22:28

their faith and we this is

22:30

clearly not all military. I'm never certain

22:32

the military, but in corporations,

22:35

if you say like, oh, I'm a Christian, I pray

22:37

or and I know they're supposed to be No, uh,

22:41

you're you're you're not supposed to discriminate

22:43

against individuals. But we've seen where individuals

22:46

have announced their faith and they've been

22:48

fired from jobs, or whereas

22:52

we see that there is a condemnation of

22:54

certain belief systems, and so

22:57

it's it's it's just a very really

22:59

interesting thing place right now. And

23:02

I was really interested in knowing if

23:04

you had any personal experiences with that in the military,

23:06

which you kind of went into. So

23:09

thank you for mentioning

23:11

that. And I'm hoping and praying that it will

23:13

never be a time where a person

23:15

serving in the military can't proudly

23:18

announce their faith. And

23:20

you know, I'm a Christian just like you are. And I think

23:22

it's so important that faith

23:24

plays a pardon everything that we do, whether

23:26

it be professional or personally. It

23:29

makes all the difference in the world in my viewpoint,

23:31

in per my experience, well to

23:34

to say how prevalent or how significant

23:37

is on our id tags or some

23:39

people will call them dog tags are religious

23:42

preferences listed on

23:45

our with our SOLF security number, our name, and

23:47

blood type. So is your religious

23:50

not your denominational preference? And

23:54

I would sadly say the reason that is

23:56

listed on there is that in case of a loss,

23:59

that the corporate rights can be given

24:01

to you in your passing.

24:04

So there's a huge consideration of

24:06

what faith means

24:09

to military personnel,

24:11

even at death. So

24:14

that's how that's the extent that

24:18

diversity and the

24:20

understanding. But again the

24:23

practice as long as it

24:25

does then interfere with mission, that's

24:27

the practice. We can talk

24:29

about other aspects of religion,

24:33

uh of where people served in the military

24:35

and how that impacts them. I've

24:37

had those experiences with individuals

24:40

and the bias and discrimination that comes

24:42

with that, and

24:44

what that means for other cultures

24:47

or even those of other cultures

24:49

who serve in the military, and

24:52

and those practices of

24:54

discrimination based

24:56

off of the way one looks or the way one

24:59

speaks, or

25:01

being called a trigger because

25:03

of a deployment experience.

25:06

So those things are real as well. So

25:09

the it's really

25:12

um and I think I'm being very

25:15

over generalizing um this

25:17

message, but I'm trying to be very clear that

25:20

it's not all, it's some, but

25:22

it is there. And the unfortunate

25:24

part about the it's not all or some

25:26

is the the some

25:29

sometimes control the conversation because

25:31

they're the vocal minority. And those are

25:33

the people who who are

25:36

written about, who are reported

25:38

on. And I'm talking about reporting from a journalistic

25:40

standpoint, and we we were begin

25:43

to think that maybe there is a change is

25:45

occurring in the in the military service. But

25:47

I pray and hope that we'll

25:49

see a continuation of a

25:52

positive, faith based experience,

25:54

being able to be who you are

25:57

and not have to

25:59

change for the sake of what a

26:01

few may think or say. So I

26:03

appreciate that. Thank you for explaining that

26:06

to us. Now, we know veterans

26:08

across the country are dealing with a lot of issues from

26:12

jobs, mental health, homelessness, and we're

26:14

talking about folks who have already

26:16

left the service. And we see signs

26:19

where we are on the free you know, leaving the freeway

26:21

exiting off where somebody may say I'm a veteran,

26:24

or people are on the street where they're veteran

26:28

veteran hats and they're asking for change,

26:30

or they're homeless or whatever the case may be.

26:33

And there's a lot of people who feel very patriotic

26:35

around helping UM individuals

26:38

like that and helping veterans

26:40

broadly speaking, are those

26:42

general principles should we apply

26:45

in terms of help helping them? What should

26:47

we be thinking about when we're talking about

26:49

Memorial Day? How can we serve those

26:52

who have given everything for our

26:54

freedom? How can we better serve them?

26:56

Um? So

26:59

I'm just gonna get to answer the

27:01

Latin like the latter part, and maybe

27:03

that will be inclusive of the other parts

27:06

um that you spoke on. I

27:12

believe that in terms

27:14

in terms of how can we serve veterans

27:17

who have given everything

27:19

for us? How can we honor them? Because we've

27:21

seen a lot of folks who are dealing with homelessness,

27:24

mental issues. Uh

27:27

you see them on the corner with science and

27:29

that they're veteran and they need help.

27:31

How can we honor their sacrifice

27:34

as they fall for our freedom? Or

27:36

rather your sacrifice, you all

27:38

sacrifice, I should say so.

27:40

So I have I have mixed positions

27:43

about that from

27:45

a personal lens and from

27:49

a professional one. Okay,

27:53

Um, from a professional lens, it's

27:56

um individuals who who served

27:59

and so served well or

28:02

not so well, they still served,

28:04

and they are there due the

28:07

respect of service and

28:10

the benefits they're entitled to

28:12

because of that service, whether it be through

28:14

the v A, communal support,

28:17

veteran service organizations, et cetera.

28:21

Then there are some who, by

28:24

life chance, make choices that

28:28

impact the life of other people. And

28:31

so my

28:34

bias and that is to

28:36

what extent are those individuals

28:43

They're eligible for the benefits they're

28:45

eligible produced service, but how to what

28:47

extent are they eligible for the support of community?

28:51

And this is probably leaning

28:54

in a lot of different directions. Service

28:59

member us, like everybody else, while

29:02

we serve, we're also human beings.

29:06

We are also citizens

29:09

of this country. And

29:12

while we have the respect of

29:14

service, we still have to follow

29:17

the protocols, the

29:19

laws, the system, et

29:22

cetera. We don't. We don't get

29:24

away with things just because

29:27

of service. So when

29:29

it comes to the impact

29:31

of mental health, when it comes

29:34

to the impact of homelessness,

29:37

when it comes to the impact of

29:39

job loss, incarceration,

29:43

all those um things

29:46

that impact service members just like

29:48

everybody else, it's

29:50

what is the individual's narrative

29:54

that brings them into the space. And I think

29:56

first the first thing

29:59

to help is to understand the story,

30:01

to find out if help is necessary,

30:08

because there are

30:10

times when help is not

30:12

necessary but desired, and

30:16

then there are times when help is necessary,

30:19

and then there are times when help is deserved.

30:24

And then there's times when you're entitled

30:26

to And I'm not talking about entitlement

30:29

in terms of privilege, I mean like entitlement

30:31

to be VA benefits, entitlements too,

30:34

you know, um VA, homelown

30:37

benefits, et cetera. And so I

30:39

always encourage people find out what

30:41

the person's narrative is, understand

30:47

their story, not from a

30:49

place of judgment, but

30:52

from a place of unconditional

30:55

positive regard. To be

30:57

the listener, not

31:00

to do anything or to fix

31:02

anything, but to

31:04

simply engage.

31:07

Just to engage, and then

31:09

you'll understand what

31:12

needs are unmet. But you'll

31:14

only know those specifically when you ask.

31:18

So for women veterans,

31:22

the assumptions around

31:24

women veterans in their service, well,

31:27

some of our health care needs are different

31:30

from our male counterparts. So

31:33

to assume that women veterans need

31:35

the exact same healthcare right

31:40

or the exact same services,

31:42

and wanting a community wanted to do something

31:45

without asking what is the need,

31:49

what is the support um

31:54

Sometimes the need for homeless

31:57

women veterans are different from male

32:00

veterans. Sometimes the mental

32:02

health issues where women veterans

32:04

are different than

32:07

male veterans, And

32:09

so it's about asking the question to

32:12

find out what resources are necessary

32:16

and deserved and

32:19

if support can be rendered. I want to

32:21

pick up from there in a moment, but first let's go

32:23

to break, you

32:33

know. And that's that's such a I

32:35

don't think a lot of people take time to kind

32:37

of think about that, to engage on that

32:40

level, because it's almost like you're just passing

32:42

by someone on the street and

32:45

you thank them for their service and

32:47

you try to help them out with whatever you have in

32:49

your pocket. So it's it's on

32:51

a very micro level in terms

32:53

of that level of engagement.

32:55

People a lot of times don't even take the time

32:58

to say, hey, you know,

33:00

how did how did you get how did you get here?

33:03

No one, no one. Not many people take

33:05

that time to do that. Not understand your point

33:08

in terms of hey, sometimes

33:10

in those situations, you can have a veteran

33:12

that's dealing with mental health issues and

33:15

they don't want to help. They're just they're

33:17

on the street, just like you see a lot of folks

33:19

generally in the state of California

33:22

anywhere else with homelessness. In the

33:24

state of california's about a hundred and fifty thousand

33:26

people, and some folks just choose

33:29

to be in those set of circumstances. There's other

33:31

than others that need help. But

33:33

according to Military Times, there's about thirty seven

33:35

thousand homeless veterans

33:38

um and that's as that number is as recent

33:40

as this year, that who

33:43

need help. But then you see individuals

33:45

who come into the country and

33:48

in some cases illegally,

33:50

and there's billions of dollars being

33:52

spent um for them

33:54

to take care of them. But it doesn't seem

33:56

to be that same level of urgency

33:59

for those those who actually serve

34:01

the country. Is that

34:04

something that you've noticed. I

34:06

think that um organism

34:09

of MEMBIS say agencies, let

34:11

me say agencies tend to rely

34:13

on the systems that they put in place to

34:16

support those of

34:19

us who serve. Like the v A administration,

34:21

they like you can go to the Viet

34:23

Well, not everybody is eligible for VA benefits,

34:26

and so sometimes I think that the aside

34:28

is, well, we have services

34:31

for veterans already, we

34:33

have programs for veterans

34:35

already, and so the

34:39

space created and

34:41

systems created to support veterans,

34:44

then UM, they have to

34:46

do their diligence to ensure that

34:49

these veteran pandemics,

34:51

if you will, or veteran concerns

34:53

or issues that are prevalent are

34:56

reduced, thus

34:59

leaving time for other people to

35:02

to be concerned about UM,

35:04

immigration, all the other aspects

35:06

that that you you speak

35:08

of. And so I think that's what happens,

35:11

UM, that it's kind of a pass

35:14

off to

35:16

the v A or

35:19

other systems in place. UM,

35:24

homelessness among that veteran

35:26

population, UM, as you

35:28

stated, has grown. And

35:31

I would say also, then if

35:34

you consider during Vietnam,

35:37

the Vietnam era, how service

35:39

members were treated when they came home, in

35:41

addition to the segregation that still existed

35:44

in the country, and to say,

35:46

well there they want to stay

35:48

on the street, Well, you didn't receive me, then, so

35:52

why why should I go and get

35:55

your help now? And I know, I know I've

35:57

worked with quite a few Vietnam veterans who

35:59

have that statement. When

36:01

I came home, I had to throw

36:03

my uniform in the garbage

36:06

because of how people treated me or

36:08

African American veterans, the

36:11

discrimination that they dealt with in

36:13

returning home, and so why

36:16

would I if I am home with

36:18

why would I want to go to a

36:20

system that has already abandoned

36:22

me? And

36:25

pity there and and

36:28

and the point of and

36:30

I understand that period of time were certainly

36:32

in a much different period of time.

36:34

However, however,

36:37

even the referencing of the v A, we

36:39

know how the v A was really failing

36:43

veterans for many years. People

36:45

people said, hey, we need

36:47

to we're not getting the adequate care or

36:49

that we should be getting at the v A

36:52

v A hospital system or the v A system

36:54

generally speaking. And

36:57

that was one of the things that needed to be fixed. And

36:59

I think that fixing of it

37:01

came around tween I believe

37:03

it was. And I'm sure there's still much

37:05

more work to be done, no no doubt about

37:07

that. But do you feel, uh,

37:10

in your opinion the current VA system

37:12

is effective at providing

37:15

the care that our veterans need. It

37:18

depends on which VIA you go to. And

37:21

I'm not gonna lie about that. I'm talking as a veteran

37:23

now. I have heard so

37:26

many stories, um

37:28

from fellow veterans whether

37:30

they're clients or colleagues, about

37:33

the va system and how they function

37:35

to operate when

37:38

I've had my own share of experiences,

37:41

believe it or not, UM,

37:43

So I think that it

37:46

depends on the administration

37:49

at that particular v A and

37:52

how they operate. That

37:55

does make a huge difference, UM

37:58

in the type of service. Now, how service

38:00

improved over time? I would say from my own

38:02

experiences and use of the v A, it

38:05

has changed quite dramatically.

38:08

I'm quite a bit

38:11

UM to the degree where if providers

38:13

are available, UM they have

38:16

community care where you can see

38:18

a provider, a civilian provider,

38:21

but UM be a

38:23

connected provider in the community

38:25

to receive services.

38:28

Did they have that prior to to

38:30

I think this they started with the Choice program

38:33

a few years ago. This was after I came back

38:35

from deployment, so

38:37

this is before they

38:39

didn't have this. So you're

38:42

talking about level of care, quality of care,

38:44

waiting time. Do I have appointments

38:46

that I can't get into until August and

38:48

it's May Yes, I do absolutely

38:52

that happens. UM. Is it the

38:54

failure of the system or that

38:57

them lacking care? I don't think it's

38:59

a lack of care. I think it's just how

39:01

administrations are able

39:04

to maintain uh,

39:06

theirs, their systems, their staff, UM

39:09

and what's happening UM. So

39:12

there are two different parts. There's the administrative

39:14

part and then there's the care of the

39:17

veteran when they're entering in that space.

39:20

Am I respected in care for when

39:23

I go to the v A, when

39:25

I go to my appointments in women's health

39:28

and ignore all the other things,

39:30

I'm okay when

39:33

I received good, great care

39:35

from my providers. Have there

39:37

been times whe I didn't receive quality service?

39:39

Absolutely, And that's where

39:42

they have patient advocates and you can

39:44

enquire and inform and

39:47

let them know about a service or

39:49

something that does not meet UM,

39:52

your expectation as as a

39:54

veteran. So there, while

39:57

the system really

40:01

had some issues, I

40:04

do see some progress being made

40:07

in terms of the care I receive. I

40:10

do have other colleagues who are not getting

40:12

the same care, and I'm

40:16

I'm an advocate, and so I say, you

40:18

can ask for the services that you need.

40:20

You can inquire, you can educate this

40:23

provider on military culture because

40:25

sometimes they don't know UM.

40:28

You can correct them if some statement

40:30

is made that impacts

40:32

your care. So there are

40:34

these layers around the

40:36

systems that do exist. The

40:39

other part to what you're

40:41

saying are the

40:44

veterans that are in the spaces with other

40:46

veterans right and

40:49

sometimes the that behavior or

40:52

what occurs is not managed and

40:55

creates other issues or other problems.

40:58

But um again,

41:00

you have advocates in the space that you can report

41:03

to to ensure you're kept safe

41:05

or if you have concerns around

41:08

those, as much as you do with the staff.

41:12

Now, if you could reform the system,

41:15

the v a system, that is what

41:17

reforms which you you make. I

41:22

would make reforms to better

41:25

care for women veterans,

41:27

better holistic care for

41:29

women veterans. Military

41:31

sexual trauma seems to be the buzzword

41:35

that lingers around we're talking about women

41:37

veterans. That's not the only type of care

41:40

that is necessary

41:42

for women that as some of us have really high

41:44

functioning careers,

41:47

um and and professions

41:50

which require us to maintain a certain

41:52

level of what we call in a military

41:55

operation tempo very heightened and

41:58

so to understand and

42:01

what have military service impacts

42:03

not just the sexual

42:06

trauma survivor, but the combat

42:08

veteran, the person who

42:10

witnessed trauma, heard about trauma,

42:14

UM all those other things, especially

42:16

women veterans, is significantly important.

42:18

I would add those pieces to the administration,

42:21

not just for women veterans, but for maale veterans

42:24

as well, because sometimes that's missed. UM.

42:27

I will offer an aspect. I would include

42:29

an aspect of holistic care, which

42:31

includes not just trauma

42:34

treatment but basic

42:37

life reentry, if

42:39

you will. I as a veteran,

42:41

I serve I also have PTSD

42:45

and from complex

42:48

traumas connected to the military,

42:51

and it

42:53

isn't It has become very important

42:56

to me that individuals

43:00

are aware that while one might

43:02

be diagnosed, the diagnosis

43:04

is not a frame of reference for who they are and they're

43:06

being uh.

43:09

In fact, people are still able

43:11

to function in a

43:13

very specific way in their careers.

43:17

And so I would offer to

43:20

the v A programs or services

43:22

or can have them consider how do we support

43:24

those individuals as well, because

43:27

that's often the stereotype goes

43:30

that if you're a veteran with PTSD,

43:32

then you are like this. And

43:35

I think I'm very clear that I'm a veteran

43:37

with PTSD, and I have a service

43:39

dog, and I

43:41

function like this and

43:43

so right

43:46

and and I can articulate well, and

43:49

I can advocate for myself, and

43:51

I can do all of those high functioning things. I

43:54

still have PTSD, and

43:58

don't let the diagnosis treat

44:01

allow you to treat me less. And

44:04

throughout our country, our country's history,

44:06

those who have been diagnosed

44:09

with PTSD, they are in

44:11

some respects treated like their throwaway's,

44:13

like you're unable to fully function

44:16

and be a part of our society. It's almost

44:18

like, oh man, it's sadly person at

44:20

p PTSD. When you

44:22

know, you look at places like Chicago where

44:25

there's and obviously military

44:27

services the print, but there's a lot of people who are walking

44:29

around with PTSD and don't even know it.

44:32

Mm hmmm. Yeah. It's community

44:34

trauma, you

44:37

know, as you know impacted

44:39

by that, I mean exposure to violence.

44:42

PTSD is not just what you did

44:45

about what you witnessed and also heard.

44:47

So I don't think people understood the criterion

44:50

of PTSD um

44:52

they were also understand and by curious

44:54

trauma and all those other aspects

44:57

of it. So there are many layers two

45:00

to this and to your questions

45:02

like what would I infuse into the

45:04

v A system. I would infuse that, like, let's

45:06

do some community work around people understanding

45:09

and understanding PTSD and this in

45:11

this wholeness, not just in the part where

45:14

you're a veteran you went off the combat. Yes you

45:16

have PTSD, but other people

45:18

who experience other types of trauma have to work

45:20

really hard to prove that

45:22

those are their traumas. What

45:25

interesting dichonomy that is being

45:28

in those spaces? Well, before I

45:30

let you go, I wanted to ask

45:32

you, because we're family and you've

45:34

seen me since obviously

45:37

I was a little kid. Uh,

45:39

what if you could give people

45:42

who are listening, because folks are interesting

45:44

interested in you know, my background,

45:47

how I grew up, and of course I talked about

45:49

it in the book Taking for Granted, But

45:51

what would you say about me then

45:54

and now? What would your your overarching

45:58

concise analysis be. M

46:03

I

46:06

I'm gonna pause on this because my heart just

46:08

fluttered out of out

46:10

of my love for you and my respect

46:12

for your path and your journey. And

46:18

I think people assume

46:21

a lot and take

46:23

for granted, not not to pull away from your book,

46:25

but to plug it. Um for

46:28

granted, um

46:32

your story and

46:35

your why, you're

46:38

why. I'm privy

46:40

to the why and to the story.

46:42

So I get that, I get

46:44

the whole picture that is you. Um,

46:48

but people who meet you and are

46:50

impressed and

46:53

you do have a lasting impression. But

46:56

to feel the energy of

46:58

your story behind how

47:01

you move and how you function,

47:04

and how you operate and why you

47:06

move and why you operate and

47:08

why you function the way that

47:10

you do. It's not because

47:13

you are your story. It's

47:15

because you have a story to tell. And

47:20

I assume that sometimes people

47:22

either will want to put you in

47:24

the past with your narrative or in the presence

47:26

of where they want you to be or

47:29

see you, and you are living in

47:31

your now and to

47:33

experience you and your now. That

47:36

is what gives great honor to these

47:39

authentic connections that you have with

47:41

others where they begin

47:44

to understand a little bit

47:46

more of you as you permit them to. That

47:50

they respect your journey, which

47:52

includes your story, but they're

47:55

also open to the next chapters

47:57

as you have them be not the

47:59

way they need you to be. And

48:01

I think that knowing

48:06

how proud you are and not in

48:08

pride of who you

48:10

are as a person, and

48:14

in always discovering your

48:16

becoming to

48:18

honor that not as an insecurity,

48:21

that is the value that's driven by

48:23

your longing for more, more

48:26

growth, more understanding, more wisdom,

48:28

and to share that with others

48:31

who are open to receiving it with

48:33

open arms, not close fist like

48:35

they're wanting to fight you for it. Um.

48:39

And so I've

48:41

seen how you've been with family, I've

48:44

seen how you've been with me in my

48:47

journey with trauma

48:49

and PTSD, and

48:53

I can say you're a delicate heart, um,

48:57

and you're a golden smile and the sun

49:00

that shines through you that like that shines

49:02

through you. I hope people always

49:04

see that and respect it and

49:07

not make assumptions about it, and

49:11

honor you, your narrative, your

49:13

story, your journey for that. But

49:16

you have grown into this beautiful

49:18

soul. You've always had a beautiful

49:20

soul, but you've grown

49:22

into this very strong man of

49:24

substance. And

49:27

that makes me proud. Wow,

49:31

that was that was pretty profound.

49:33

Thank you, Thank you for sharing. And I

49:35

feel like I just went to counseling with

49:37

Dr Ola Antonia. Thank

49:42

you for everything you you mean to me,

49:44

and you've been with me through

49:46

some of the more interesting phases

49:48

of life. And I appreciate

49:51

your love, your commitment to always

49:54

pushing me forward and just

49:56

being someone that I count on is

49:58

one of my closest and years. So

50:01

I love you so much. Thank you for joining

50:03

me as such an honor to have you on here, and

50:06

thank you for all all of

50:09

what you do for yourself

50:11

and your fellow veterans.

50:14

Thank you for joining out Loud with Gianno called Weell.

50:24

I want to thank dr Oland Antoyan Haines

50:27

again for a great interview. If you're enjoying the

50:29

show, please leave us a review and radis for fos stars

50:31

on Apple Podcasts. If you have any questions

50:33

for me, please email me at The out Loud at

50:35

Ginger Street sixty dot com and I'll try to answer

50:37

them in our episodes. And please sign up

50:39

for my monthly newsletter at Ginger Street sixty dot

50:41

com Slash out Loud. You can also follow

50:43

me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and palmer at Giano

50:46

Caldwell. And if you're interested in learning more

50:48

about my story, you please pick up a copy of my

50:50

bestselling book title Taken for Granted, How

50:52

Conservatism Can Win Back to Americans The Liberalism

50:54

Failed. Special things to our producer John

50:57

Cassio, researcher Aaron Kleinman and

50:59

executive do so. There's Debbie Myers and

51:01

speaker new Gingwich, all part of the Inglish

51:03

three sixty network.