0:00

Up next, How woud what you called

0:02

part of the gang which switch? Earlier

0:06

this month, Joe Biden became the first American president

0:08

not to use the word God in its National Day of

0:10

Prayer proclamation. With the Democratic

0:12

Party becoming more radical and the left overtaking

0:14

the culture, are we witnessing the end

0:17

of faith in public life? I certainly

0:19

hope not or will faith make a comeback?

0:21

Today? I try to find the answers. This

0:24

is Outlued with Gianno called one,

0:31

but today on Outlive with Gianna Callwell,

0:33

I'm very excited to have a

0:35

guest who I have a profound

0:37

respect for. And the reason for their

0:39

profound respect is because you rarely

0:42

see an elected official who

0:44

brings God into the workplace. And

0:46

it's an honor to welcome

0:49

on Bill Haslam, who is

0:51

the former governor of Tennessee. Thank you for

0:53

joining the program. Governor, Hey, thanks for having

0:55

me. I've been looking forward to this conversation.

0:58

Absolutely, We're blessed to have you. Now,

1:00

let me ask you this because before we

1:02

jump into your book, which is title of Faithful

1:05

Presence, The Promise and Peril of Faith

1:07

in the Public Square, why don't

1:09

you tell me about your background but

1:11

professionally because you have a really

1:13

interesting background. You've been on the board

1:15

of Sacks Fifth Avenue and

1:19

you've done tremendously well. So for

1:21

God to do so well as you've done and jump

1:23

into politics is pretty pretty

1:25

interesting. Yeah, So i'll give you the short

1:27

form. Actually we don't need the short

1:29

form just telling all right, I'll give you the medium

1:31

form that you don't want to be here all

1:34

day. So, actually, wasn't

1:36

in college thought I would be a pastor. And

1:39

my plan was to to teach

1:42

high school for a couple of years and then be a pastor.

1:44

And uh, my father's

1:46

you know, if you're gonna be a pastor, you might be good to

1:48

be around business for a couple of years and then you'd

1:51

have exposure to that and then people

1:53

you'd at least understand that world if

1:56

if you're in a church. And I

1:58

went to work in business for a couple of years

2:01

and ended up deciding I wasn't

2:03

called to be a pastor and ended up liking business

2:05

um and stayed doing in the

2:07

business world for twenty years, first with our

2:10

family business that has a chain of truck stops across

2:12

the country, and then went to work for Sachs.

2:15

This is in the the new days of

2:17

the internet. Literally it was internet

2:19

retailing was brand new, this is the late nineties,

2:22

and kind of helped them take their business

2:24

online, which was interesting because

2:27

I'm not a technical guy and I know nothing about

2:29

fashion. But uh, the guy that

2:31

was running the company just said, hey, we I'd

2:33

like somebody just with some you know,

2:37

the ability to build a team here that can make this happen.

2:39

So I did that, and then, uh,

2:42

right after I finished set up, some folks came to me and

2:44

said, hey, you should think about running

2:46

for mayor of knoxhll im from Knoxville, Tennessee.

2:48

And I laughed and said, you got the wrong guy. I

2:51

literally said, I literally have no interest. But

2:53

then, well, you should think and pray about it. It's kind of hard

2:55

to say no, I'm not gonna think and pray about it. Uh,

2:58

And so I did. And I been meeting

3:00

every Friday morning with a group of guys kind

3:02

of an accountability group for twenty five years,

3:05

and I brought it to them thinking they would laugh, and

3:08

they said, we think you should think

3:10

and pray about that, and we'll pray with you. And same

3:13

thing with my wife and I thought she would go, no, please,

3:15

don't do that. You know. Um, the

3:17

only thing that would be, you know, worse

3:19

than being married to a pastor, be

3:21

being married to a politician. Uh.

3:24

But she said, you know, I think

3:26

you should be serious about this, and uh

3:28

and and pursue it. So ran

3:30

for mayor and loved it. It's just you

3:33

know, calling, they say, it's kind of where your

3:35

desires meet the world's needs. And

3:38

that's what being mayor was like of

3:40

mown hometown. So ran in two

3:42

thousand three, barely one really close election,

3:45

ran in two thousand and seven and one again and

3:47

then uh, same process

3:50

running for governor, thinking about it, prayed about talking

3:52

a lot of people. Ran in two thousand and ten

3:54

and in love. I mean, being governor of your

3:56

own home state is is, in

3:58

my opinion, one of the best job there is. So

4:01

I ran in two thousand and ten, reelecting two thousand

4:03

fourteen. Have been out of office for about two years

4:05

now. Yeah, you do fairly well in

4:07

the primary too. It seems as though there was

4:09

a lot of respect for you running

4:12

for for these particular offices.

4:15

Well, I think so, you know, political

4:19

races sometimes you're about timing, right, I

4:21

mean, there's times when the winds blowing one way and

4:23

happens to be your way. At other times, sometimes you have

4:25

a tail wind, sometimes you have a head wind. Uh.

4:27

And so, as I said, my very first mayor's

4:30

race was really close, and then after that we didn't

4:33

have too many close ones, which is a lot.

4:35

I can tell you this election nights when

4:37

you're ahead by double digits are a lot

4:39

more fun. And when you're quitting out the

4:41

last precinct coming just

4:44

more of a celebration there. And I tell you, being

4:46

a pastor in some ways

4:48

can can be like an elected official because

4:50

you meant to serve as just a lot of politicians

4:52

who get the serving part.

4:55

Actually, I tell people that if if

4:57

you and I swapped jobs and you you know, I

4:59

went to be a pastor and you went to be

5:01

in an office, you'd go This feels

5:03

really familiar because it's

5:06

a lot of relationships and it's

5:08

also a lot of deciding between good

5:10

things and other good things or bad

5:13

things and worse things. You know, we're

5:15

trying to decide are you're gonna put in the budget, you

5:18

know, more money for mental

5:20

health issues, or to pay teachers

5:22

more, or to help more disabled children.

5:24

Well, there's not a bad idea there, right, but

5:26

you can't afford to do everything you want. It's

5:28

like at the church, like we're gonna spend more

5:31

on our middle school program

5:33

or our worship or our

5:35

outreach, you know, and there's not a bad idea

5:37

there, but right, you can't do everything. So

5:40

I tell my friends who are pastors that you could

5:42

go be a mayor, governor and it would feel a

5:44

lot, a lot more familiar

5:46

than you might think. Yeah. Absolutely.

5:49

Now what's really really interesting about

5:51

you, I think is Forbes. Forbes

5:53

has said, I believe it was Forbes said that you had

5:55

a network of about two billion dollars.

5:57

So you go from a businessman who has been extraordinarily

6:00

successful to the public life.

6:03

You don't need the job. You really have a

6:05

servant's heart at that point, one could imagine,

6:08

and you decide you're gonna get out there, you're gonna

6:10

do it, and you're gonna make a difference in people's lives

6:12

and you end up succeeding. Well

6:15

I hope. So, I mean, listen, the reason

6:17

I ran was this, and it's it's

6:19

it's really the reason I wrote wrote the book. It's

6:21

easy in today's world for people just

6:23

to give up on the public square on politics

6:26

and say, well, I hate both of them. I hate

6:28

both sides. You know, I don't. I don't want to hear any more of

6:30

this. But if

6:32

we really do care about

6:35

the common good, if we really do care to seek

6:37

the places of the uh, the peace

6:39

of the places where God has called us, the

6:42

leverage that you can bring in a government

6:44

role is huge. I mean, like, we decided

6:46

we want to put in a free community college

6:48

program for everybody in the state. We

6:51

could do that. I couldn't do that in a private citizen.

6:53

Don't. I don't care how much money you have. You

6:55

know, we decided we want to improve

6:57

access uh for folks. Well

7:00

you know, uh, you know

7:02

Warren Buffett or Bill Gates or who you know,

7:04

whoever you want to pick, Jeff Bezos. They might

7:07

have all the money they want to do everything world, but they can't build

7:09

their own interstate system. And

7:11

in government, you really do have the ability

7:13

to leverage serving

7:16

a lot of people, if you'll take it as

7:18

that opportunity. Absolutely,

7:20

and you brought out with you. Let's jump into the book.

7:23

So this book will be released Tuesday.

7:26

In the book, you argue that faith can actually

7:28

be a redemptive in unifying force in

7:30

the public square. As I'm sure you

7:33

know some people will find as argument controversial

7:35

as our culture has become increasingly secular

7:38

and woke. If you wouldn't mind

7:40

to tell us a bit about why

7:42

you wrote the book why now? Yeah,

7:44

I think two things. One, there's

7:47

a lot of believers who would

7:49

say, you know, the

7:51

public square is it's too messy

7:53

of a place for believers. Um,

7:56

you can't. I can do a lot more good

7:58

other places. But uh,

8:00

Martin Luther had a quote, and I'm gonna butcher, this isn't

8:02

exactly right, but he said, send your very best of public

8:06

service because the ambiguities

8:08

of of life there take a real

8:10

wisdom. He said, Hey, I'm preaching the Holy Spirit

8:13

does all the work. Uh. Now I

8:15

don't person agree with him on that, but but

8:17

you get the point, like, we

8:19

we can't abandon the public square to

8:22

people who are just going to

8:24

be in it for their own purposes

8:27

instead of to serve the common

8:29

good. Um. So that's one reason. The

8:31

second is this, Hey, it doesn't

8:32

it's no secret that this

8:35

country is incredibly divided, right,

8:37

I mean, it's um

8:39

our. Our presidential elections are close.

8:42

The Senate, the U. S. Senates divided fifty fifty.

8:44

The House is six seats difference

8:46

out of four thirty five. But

8:48

we're not just divided. We're mad and we

8:50

were mad at people on the other side and

8:53

we think not only are they wrong, but they have bad

8:55

motives. And everybody's

8:58

looking around and going, i'd like this

9:00

environment. I don't like this atmosphere. Somebody

9:03

needs to change it, um. And

9:06

the reality is the media is not going to change it.

9:08

Their their their job is to stoke outrage.

9:11

And the political parties aren't going to change it. Their

9:13

job is to elect their candidates.

9:15

Well, my proposal here is what if

9:17

people of faith could say,

9:20

we want to be salt so

9:22

that this meat doesn't go bad. We want to be light

9:24

for this darkness. We want

9:26

to bring as people who understand the need for

9:29

justice and mercy. We

9:31

we know you need both. We want to

9:33

bring that to the public square, um,

9:37

and do what God has asked us

9:39

to do, to act justly, love, mercy and

9:41

wal humbley. Wow, now

9:43

that I think that's especially

9:45

quote in the scriptures as really powerful. Now, a

9:47

lot of folks seemingly don't follow

9:50

that book blueprint in the same way

9:53

that you just mentioned. And as a person

9:55

of faith, as a person who have operated in public

9:57

life as a person person of faith, and one can

10:00

do a lot of politicians talk about faith

10:02

and Christianity and religion, but

10:04

then there's folks that talk about it and there's people

10:06

who do live it. And I don't know you

10:09

personally, but if I can look

10:11

at your life just from a glimpse digitally,

10:13

it looks like you've done uh

10:15

pretty well, not just financially and

10:17

professionally, but you you try to live

10:19

out of life that Um, I think one

10:23

one day God would appreciate or like or

10:25

love or whatever however you want to phrase that. So,

10:28

as as a man of faith, can you talk about

10:30

what religion, what role religion has

10:32

played in your life? Yeah,

10:35

listen, I would have never run for office

10:37

if it wasn't for my faith.

10:40

I would have. You know, there's a lot easier things

10:43

to do, quite frankly, um,

10:45

but I honestly felt like this is what

10:47

I was called to do. Now. Uh.

10:49

My wife used to laugh during the elections, like,

10:52

Okay, you're called to run. The election will

10:54

determine if you're called to serve UH

10:57

and UH in office. But

11:00

I think what I think, what you're hitting on is

11:02

a really key thing. Unfortunately,

11:04

too many people in the political process

11:06

use God rather than seeking to be used

11:08

by God, and that's a there's

11:10

a big difference there, and that's a big temptation.

11:12

But you know, Scripture doesn't

11:14

take lightly when we use our faith

11:17

for our own ends. I mean, remember the

11:19

story of Antonia, Sin Safire and acts,

11:21

and you know everybody has given away everything,

11:23

they have, their possessions, and they

11:26

act like they do, but they really haven't. And

11:30

you know, God doesn't treat that lightly.

11:32

So they were acting like something they weren't.

11:35

And for us as believers

11:37

to try to act like something that we're not in the public

11:39

square in order to gain some advantage,

11:42

that's using God and we shouldn't take

11:44

that. We shouldn't take that lightly. We're talking to Bill

11:46

has Them, the former two term governor of the Great

11:49

State of Tennessee. We've gotten much

11:51

more with him on his new book, Faith and Politics.

11:53

After a quick break. Critics,

11:58

especially now you're talking about on a national age,

12:00

critics probably say faith and religion

12:02

are divisive, and we'll bring breed more

12:05

hate and polarization in our in our society.

12:08

I'm really intrigued by how you responded

12:11

to that in office, because a lot of that kind of

12:14

conversation started in their early

12:16

two thousands around the Obama here, or at least

12:18

from what I can recall, I'm a little

12:21

younger maybe than you, but I

12:23

remember a lot of that starting around that time.

12:26

Yeah, there's no question that heated up

12:28

some of them. But I would argue, it's it's

12:30

all. Our politics have always been pretty

12:33

heated in this country from the very beginning.

12:35

But here's what I'd say, And you say, well, why could

12:37

you know how people A lot of people would

12:40

say, I don't buy the premise. I don't

12:42

buy the premise that people of faith can make a

12:44

difference in the public square. Hey, here's

12:46

what it says this. You know, James

12:49

talks about what wisdom

12:51

from above looks, what looks like, and he says,

12:53

what's some that's from above, and that's what we should

12:55

be looking for. And in office

12:57

or as pastors, or in business or anything with

13:00

that's from above is first pure, then

13:02

peaceable, then gentle,

13:05

open to reason, full of mercy

13:07

and good fruits, Impartial,

13:10

and sincere. And if I said,

13:12

if I went out and you and I walked down the street, we

13:14

interviewed passers by in a totally

13:16

secular context and said, tell

13:19

me what people of faith act like in the public

13:21

square. Not many would say

13:23

open to reason, sincere,

13:26

gentle, pure, open to you

13:29

know, full of mercy. We wouldn't get

13:31

described that way. We'd get described as they

13:33

really want to make their point, they really want to win

13:35

the argument. And my

13:38

I guess my argument in the book is this, as

13:41

believers, we believe

13:43

in truth. So this isn't about being mushy, and

13:46

isn't about just being kind of in the moderate middle,

13:48

no matter where that leaves you. This

13:50

is about saying, we want to get to the best

13:52

answer. And if

13:55

we think of our role is to serve the common

13:57

good, then our our role is to get to the best

14:00

are not just our answer the

14:03

best answer? And when it comes to

14:05

issues that are very divisive that the left

14:08

continues to push today. You talk about

14:11

abortion is one that comes up fairly

14:13

often, and I know you're pro life, Um,

14:16

thank you for that, and so am I. Uh,

14:19

when when it comes to those kind of issues,

14:22

the best answer is what the Bible says, choose

14:24

life, is it not? It is? So that

14:26

that that's that's a great example. So thanks

14:28

for bringing that up. So what I'd say is, I'm

14:31

not asking you to change this

14:33

idea that you know life begins

14:35

at conception, and that you know we're

14:37

we're we're all created in the image of God,

14:39

and so taking that life and you

14:42

know in the womb is is is

14:45

destroying and is it is killing

14:47

somebody that's truly created in the image

14:49

of God. I'm not asking you to change that. I'm just saying

14:51

this, what if you approached

14:54

the conversation in a different

14:57

way. Here's what my point

14:59

is, Christians, just like everyone

15:01

else, we're just as likely to send

15:03

the hateful email. We're

15:05

just as likely in the argument to try to

15:07

come up with the clever put down that

15:10

will say, ha, see I won the argument.

15:12

But if our goal is to get

15:15

to truth and not just to win

15:17

the argument, I'd ask you this, has

15:20

anybody ever changed your mind when they've come

15:22

with a really clever put down of your position?

15:25

No? Not quite No, No, so you don't.

15:27

It actually just makes you dig in. So I'm saying

15:29

do we really trust God? And saying rather

15:33

than coming to this public

15:35

discussion with hatred

15:38

for the other side and with a desire to

15:40

win the argument. What if we came as

15:42

people who are who

15:45

are humble in general and

15:47

yet committed to the truth. And I

15:49

think we here's my point, as Christians.

15:52

We we serve a God who

15:56

exhibited what love and truth looks

15:58

like at the same time. Right, That's what a cross

16:00

is about. It's about uh,

16:02

justice, that we needed

16:05

someone to die for us and mercy

16:07

a God who is willing to do that for us. And

16:11

so of all people, we should be

16:13

people who bring to the public discussion

16:16

this idea of bringing justice

16:18

and mercy at the same time, justice

16:21

and mercy, and and that kind of brings me to

16:24

something I was talking about on the Era earlier

16:26

today. We're talking about the defund

16:29

the police movement, specifically

16:31

in in New York City. UM

16:33

as an example, shootings

16:36

went up ninetiesent homicides

16:39

went up, that was in this

16:43

year, and violent

16:45

assaults, felony assaults. I should

16:47

say, uh, and you have that's

16:50

one side of it. Defund the police. We

16:52

needed to strip all their resources away.

16:54

They shouldn't be involved in any much

16:56

of anything, no public safety. Then

16:59

you have another side, um, the Black

17:01

Lives Matter side who who

17:03

advocates for similar things, but they're

17:05

not necessarily to defund the police movement,

17:07

but they've been a part of that conversation. So

17:10

when you're bringing the sides to the table that

17:12

support the police holistically,

17:14

they may want to see some incremental

17:17

changes, but maybe not overarching

17:20

reform of the police. How do you bring all these

17:23

three sides to the table to have the conversation,

17:25

You ask really good practical questions,

17:27

by the way, because that's what comes down to. So

17:30

I'm I would definitely never be

17:32

in favor of defunding the police

17:34

because you know, is

17:37

when people march through the streets saying no justice,

17:39

no piece, they're

17:41

saying, we want justice, we want we want

17:43

the bad guys to get caught. And that's what we all want,

17:46

right, we all want if somebody's doing

17:48

something wrong, we want them to get you

17:51

know, to to to to stop that. Um

17:55

and so but I would say, what

17:57

there's probably is some real value

17:59

for us and listening to the argument of

18:02

why does that feel? Why do you have such

18:04

a different view about law

18:06

enforcement than I do? Uh to that

18:08

person and understanding there there's some pain

18:10

in there, maybe from some unjust treatment,

18:13

right, I mean, it's uh, let's

18:15

listen, I got you know, I have

18:17

I have too many friends who are who

18:21

are black man, who say, hey, I still get worried every

18:23

time I get pulled over in the car in

18:25

a way that I don't okay. So I'd

18:27

argue that helps me when I have friends

18:29

that I respect and love and they're

18:32

they're you know, they're out doing

18:35

doing what they're supposed to be doing and they get pulled

18:37

over and they're terrified, And I think that would

18:39

never strike me to be terrified. I'd be, you know, like,

18:42

hey, why are you pulling me over? Um?

18:44

So it helps me understand that I do I agree

18:46

with their solution or their answer of defund

18:48

the police. No, No, I don't. I think it's a really

18:51

bad idea. And I think people

18:53

would once they had that, they'd

18:55

be saying, oops, we picked the wrong door.

18:59

So if I'm hearing you correctly, are you

19:01

saying first, try to understand,

19:04

Try to understand where the other side is

19:07

coming from, so you can have the conversation versus.

19:10

What we see a lot in politics is more

19:12

so arguing across

19:14

each other. No one's listening. No one's

19:16

really trying to have. The conversation is all about sound

19:19

bites and talking points and

19:21

and getting the slam dunk on Twitter where

19:23

you get a million retweets bingo.

19:26

I'm Bill Haslaman I proved that message,

19:30

you know. I mean because because listen to getting

19:33

that slam drunk on Twitter feels good.

19:35

But it doesn't change anybody's mind, right, It

19:38

doesn't change one person's mind. Now,

19:40

a lot of people on your side will retweet it, and you're

19:42

going, wow, cool, Look you know, look how many retweets

19:44

I got. But you didn't change one person

19:46

on the other side's mind. Uh,

19:48

nor would I say. You know,

19:51

remember this, we're the people are supposed to

19:53

love our enemies. Okay, that's really

19:55

hard, particularly in today's world. You

19:57

know, you get you look at what's happening

19:59

in social media interchanges, go wow, it's

20:01

really hard to love that person right now. But that's

20:04

what we're called to do, and that's that's

20:06

really hard. People ask it's hard

20:08

to be a Christian politician. I'm like, yeah, it's really

20:11

really hard to love your enemies when

20:13

they're taking shots at you twenty four hours

20:15

a day. Um. But

20:18

but again, that's still what we're called to do. And

20:20

I think here's the other point i'd make is this. People

20:23

come to me all the time and say, Bill, you don't understand what you're

20:25

talking about. You don't understand how high the stakes

20:27

are. We're literally battling for the soul

20:29

of America here and you're

20:32

wanting us to bring a pillow to a knife

20:34

fight. Okay, uh, And

20:37

there's too much at stake to act the way that you talk

20:39

about it said, Well, we don't say, in

20:41

in other things that we should suspend God's

20:44

rules for that, like you need to be

20:46

ethical in your business unless you're about to go

20:48

bankrupt, and then you can do whatever you want. You know,

20:50

we don't say you should be faithful to

20:52

your wife unless somebody

20:55

really really attractive comes, you know, we don't.

20:57

We don't do that. We say God's

20:59

truth is God truth. In politics, we say

21:02

we don't really want to act the way God asked

21:04

us too, because the stakes are so high.

21:08

That's a good point. And there's a transition

21:10

point. I want to ask you about that because you

21:13

were saying keep the consistency and as believers,

21:15

we have to model a particular

21:18

behavior. Now, how do you respond

21:20

to some of the things that President Trump

21:23

might have said, whether it be on television

21:25

or interviews, and you know, we can

21:27

be honest, and I'm I have no

21:30

qualms about it. I think President Trump has done a

21:32

lot of good from a policy perspective,

21:34

but there were areas in which he was divisive.

21:36

And I also understand that folks on our

21:39

left are very divisive. I get that. What

21:41

do you say in regard to that when the President

21:44

Trump some of the things that Eve has said

21:46

or done, that we're divisive? You

21:49

know, I think you're right. I mean that I

21:52

agree. I mean, I think part

21:54

of President Trump style was to try to

21:57

divide the country, find some really how

22:00

button issues and try to get a few more on

22:02

my side than the other side. Uh.

22:04

And folks on the left are guilty

22:06

of that too, you know, that's

22:09

their game. Let's find some

22:11

arguments that get our folks fired up. Uh

22:14

And and that will rally

22:16

people to the polls or to give more money or

22:18

whatever it is that that I mean, he said, that's

22:20

a little bit the game that both sides are playing.

22:23

But my question would be, how's that working?

22:26

You know, how where's that left us? And

22:30

aren't we supposed to be different. I mean, if

22:32

you read, if you read the Servant on the amount,

22:34

the clear messages, be different,

22:36

be different than the rest of the world. And the reason

22:38

I wrote this book is this Christians

22:41

aren't acting any different than anyone else

22:43

when it comes to this hateful

22:46

political environment that

22:48

we're in, and we're supposed to be different.

22:52

So we need we need to do something

22:54

different, right. And I would

22:56

say with with that is that starts

22:58

by we needed we need to act differently.

23:01

You know when I mean hit the example like when

23:03

the woman is caught in adultery and dragged before

23:05

Jesus and the crowd. And the crowd Jesus

23:08

doesn't start with the woman. He starts

23:11

with the religious types, right. He starts with

23:13

folks like you and me. He says, okay,

23:15

you know, everybody that hadn't sinned, go ahead and throw the first

23:17

stones. And interestingly,

23:20

it says, and beginning with the

23:22

older ones, they dropped their stones and

23:24

walked away. I think one of the things that

23:26

you we realize older we get is like we realized,

23:29

like, I'm a sinful, broken

23:31

person here. That's part of the

23:33

gospel, right, That's part of what Romans three says

23:35

all of sin and falls short of the glory of God. And

23:38

I don't Jesus.

23:41

When Jesus comes and looks at a situation

23:43

it's a problem. He doesn't say, Wow,

23:45

look the world has gone bad. Isn't the world

23:48

horrible? He says, the meat's

23:50

gone bad. That's what the salt was for.

23:53

And unfortunately the next

23:56

line is a scary one. And if the salt is lost

23:58

at saltiness, it's good for no thing except to be

24:00

thrown out and trampled under feet under foot.

24:03

I think that's my question is, let's,

24:05

as believers we look at a situation

24:07

like this and we say, man, I can't believe

24:10

how bad the worlds. Let's start with us, because

24:12

that's where Jesus usually starts. You

24:15

know what's interesting about you using? Uh

24:17

that that time in scripture and I was having

24:20

lunch with the pastor just about a couple of weeks

24:23

ago, and he was using an

24:25

example he without saying, let him cast

24:27

the first stone, which is often we

24:29

see in cancel culture. They didn't hear the part

24:32

of he without saying, they just got stones. So

24:35

what's your take on cancel culture? It

24:37

should there be a redemptive uh

24:39

phase and all of that or what you do, Hunt.

24:42

I mean, I love your word redemptive there, because

24:44

there's nothing redemptive about

24:46

the battle back and forth and what happens in

24:48

cancel culture. Now, you know the

24:50

other interestingt thing like you said, the point is, you

24:53

know he does come back and tell the woman go and

24:55

send no more. Absolutely you know that that

24:57

part happens to right, It's not just like

24:59

okay, starting with you religious types, you know, you

25:02

throw the first end stone, but he does

25:04

actually personally address her at the end and

25:06

say, hey, this isn't working. You

25:09

need to change and repent to Uh.

25:12

I'm you know the I

25:15

don't. I don't see anything biblical

25:18

about cancel culture. And

25:21

so we have to be certain again starting with ourselves,

25:23

that we're not doing that to other folks and say,

25:26

oh, that crazy liberal I'm

25:29

you know, they don't. They're they're im

25:32

who who would who would listen to them?

25:35

Um? You know, unfortunately for

25:37

us are fortunately we're

25:40

we're we're with this idea that God

25:42

says I've

25:44

created man and woman in my image,

25:47

and so then we have to treat people differently

25:49

because of that. That person

25:51

who is the easiest for us to hate that person

25:54

all of us right now, if I said, quick, ten

25:56

seconds, think of who that person is who

25:59

it's really hard for you level we can all come to that

26:01

person or maybe two or three really quick.

26:04

And God said you have to remember, Bill,

26:06

that person is created in My image

26:09

and that changes everything absolutely.

26:13

Wow. Let me ask you about this because

26:15

and and it's interesting because I've often

26:18

talked about and I know we kind

26:20

of touched on it a little bit. I often

26:22

talked talked about in my book Take It for

26:24

Granted, how conservatism can went back

26:26

to the American cyllaberalism failed. How

26:29

it seems as though folks on the left

26:31

are continuously trying to take

26:33

God out of whether it be

26:35

our government documents or their

26:38

political platforms. And you saw that

26:40

happened in the d n C. In You

26:43

might have seen that earlier this month, Joe

26:45

Biden became the first American president not to use

26:47

the word God in the National Day of Prayer

26:50

proclamation. What was your reaction

26:52

to that? You know, Here's

26:55

here's my thought, is um,

27:00

in in this country, um,

27:03

folks who want to take faith out of

27:05

the public square are missing

27:08

the incredible history and role that people

27:10

of faith have played in the polk

27:13

square because of their faith. The

27:15

people who have build hospitals

27:17

and started schools and all

27:19

because of a trust

27:22

and a faith in Christ. Okay,

27:24

and we have founders people like

27:26

John Adams that said, you know, our constitution

27:29

is holy. I'm gonna mess up the quote

27:31

here, but predicated on the idea

27:34

of a belief in God, and it's it's

27:36

you know, totally totally unable to

27:38

to to govern the country without

27:41

that. So this idea

27:43

that somehow we're supposed to uh

27:45

that our government is

27:47

not supposed to uh include

27:50

people of faith acting on that faith.

27:53

I don't know where they got that idea. That's

27:55

that's always been part of who we are now.

27:57

I think the genius of the of our

27:59

found there's also was we're not going to have

28:01

a government established religion because

28:04

if when every time we do that, it's the church

28:07

that loses. Think about where the church

28:09

is strong around the world and where

28:11

it's not. Think about Europe, where the church is not

28:13

very strong. There used to be a state religion

28:15

there, and when the government becomes

28:18

the church, the church is the

28:21

one that loses, not the government. But do we really

28:23

want to have a nation that is uh.

28:25

We love a nation that acts more Christian,

28:28

But I don't think we want an official state religion

28:31

because then it will become an official state

28:33

religion instead of who you are

28:35

and what you are, and then it will change

28:37

because of the political party. A person is

28:39

running it. That's it.

28:42

That's it. Now, it's hard to deny

28:44

that culture is becoming increasingly

28:47

secular, especially as a left control

28:49

so many of our institutions, our universities,

28:51

the media, Hollywood. Do you find

28:54

this trend troubling and if so, what can

28:56

be done about it? Well?

28:58

I do, I mean, I think our culture has

29:00

changed a couple of thoughts. First, for

29:03

us, for us as believers,

29:05

the wrong thing to do is to react out

29:07

of fear, a

29:10

speed of fear. But thank you,

29:12

Like I said, thanks, I appreciate, And

29:15

you know, fear not is all through scripture

29:17

and we're not We're

29:20

not supposed to act like, oh,

29:22

you know, we used to be the home team and now

29:24

we're the visiting team, and the visiting team.

29:26

I'm I'm I'm afraid to play that role. It's

29:29

just not who we're supposed to be. Should

29:31

we be concerned that as the culture starts

29:34

to change and our children,

29:36

you know, grow up in a different

29:39

world. Should we be very

29:41

mindful that we should? Um? And

29:44

we need to realize we need to teach our children

29:47

differently than we might have thirty years ago or

29:49

fifty years ago in terms of what's okay

29:51

and what's what's not okay. Um.

29:54

But again, I think the second

29:56

thing is we need to say, you

29:59

know, think about the dollars

30:02

and the time that have spent on outreach

30:06

for the Christian faith recently,

30:08

and the involvement that Christians have had in

30:10

politics, and yet the world

30:12

keeps kind of shifting away

30:15

from us. And I think my

30:17

point would be, what we've tried,

30:20

the way we've tried to do Christian

30:23

politics has not worked

30:25

because we haven't done it in a spirit

30:27

of acting, acting justly, loving

30:30

mercy, and walking humbly. Okay,

30:34

I get I get that point. Now.

30:38

The tough part about it is,

30:40

I think when you have institutions that

30:42

are controlled, one in which our children

30:44

listened to, and these messages

30:46

are amplified by way of media,

30:49

TV shows, Instagram,

30:52

you have people, especially in in my

30:54

age. I'm thirty four, I'll be thirty five in December,

30:56

but it's it's for dating as

30:59

an example, has become increasingly

31:02

tough for a lot of folks because

31:04

you've got all this imagery plan what you should

31:07

look like, what you should be, what kind of music

31:09

you should listen to, and it's allowed

31:11

for people to have real

31:14

strong identity crisis, you

31:16

know, Like it's just it's very hard

31:18

for folks to really maintain their sense

31:21

of who they are, what they grew

31:23

up having when you have this amplification

31:26

all the time. You open up your iPhone and

31:28

I add might pop up that says something that

31:30

you know, us as Christians may not even want

31:32

on their right and the government

31:35

can play a role in that part, you know, obviously.

31:37

But it's just an interesting environment. So I think

31:39

you're I think your your observations are really good.

31:41

One I want to say this, like I said, as you look

31:43

at that world changing, Like said, I've

31:46

got my kids are about your age, I've

31:48

got grandkids, and I think about, man, look at

31:50

the world they're going to grow up in with, you

31:52

know, everything from you know, the

31:56

wildest worst kind of pornography

31:58

available in two seconds on their phone to everything

32:01

else that would happen. So what I'd

32:03

take in is should we be

32:05

fearful about the cultural changes. No, should

32:07

we be very mindful of them for the very reason

32:10

you said? You bet? And would

32:12

I tell you, if you're getting ready to raise

32:15

children, that your children are going to grow up

32:17

in a very different environment than you did And then

32:19

my kids did, Yes, And so should you take

32:22

a different approach to parenting because of that? Yes?

32:25

You should. Now since you brought

32:27

up your your children, I want to mention something

32:29

that is in your book, and you may

32:31

like. Man, my book isn't out just yet, but it was

32:33

in the just a sample copy. I should.

32:36

I wish I had a copy of it to read

32:38

from. I only saw some of it, but um,

32:40

you said, and too will Hannah,

32:43

Anna, David, Leah and Matt. As

32:45

hard as it is to be and politics,

32:48

it's even harder to be in a politicians family.

32:51

Thanks for loving me so well and for standing

32:53

up for me even when I didn't

32:55

always deserve it. I love

32:57

all of you. So what were the times that you

33:00

can tell us what you felt like you didn't deserve

33:02

them to stand up and love you in that

33:04

way? Well, I mean, I'll give

33:06

you a great except, like I said, running for office is really

33:08

hard. And you know, one of the things we're

33:10

supposed to be as believers, as you know, being anxious

33:13

for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication,

33:15

thanks to

33:18

the Lord. So I can tell you I

33:21

spent a year and a half of campaign running

33:23

for governor anxious, you know, uh,

33:26

thinking, oh, what happens if I lose? You

33:28

know, what happens if my opponents

33:30

say something bad about me? All the

33:32

things that you feel personally

33:34

vulnerable in. Uh,

33:36

you know, there's it's

33:39

just as a politician

33:42

you feel all that. As you'r as

33:44

their family, you feel it even stronger. And

33:47

so you know, there's any number of times

33:49

when I would say, um,

33:52

you know, how did I do on being anxious for nothing?

33:54

Not so good? How did I do on you

33:56

know? It says you

33:58

know, but with humility, each

34:00

of you consider others better than yourselves.

34:03

How did I do on that? Not? Always

34:05

so good? I mean, I can go through lots of things

34:07

that, um, And I remember

34:10

one time one of my I was listening. When you're

34:12

in politics, it's a little like being a pastor.

34:14

Everybody wants your time, okay, and

34:16

so you learn to have these quick conversations.

34:19

You know. If you don't, you'll you'll never get home

34:21

at night. Yeah, you try to get out of a one with

34:23

me. I'm gonna give

34:25

you the medium story, not the whole Well,

34:28

but like I said, I'm or I'm you know, hey, I'm

34:30

I'm walking into church and in

34:33

between, you know, the the

34:35

our security agents, car and my few fifty

34:37

people try something like if I have all those conversations,

34:40

I'm never getting worship. And the same

34:42

thing with if I'm going to a restaurant

34:45

or whatever. And so you kind of learned to have these really

34:47

quick conversations with people like hey,

34:49

thanks, blahah blah and keep moving. And

34:51

one time we're at Thanksgiving so with or with my

34:54

extended family, and my son kind of grabbed

34:56

me and goes. You realize you're having two

34:58

minute conversations with every about it, right, And

35:01

I'm like, no, I didn't, but

35:03

but you're a hundred percent right. I had had

35:05

that, had just become who I was, and

35:08

I wouldn't listen. I was kind of given the

35:10

two or three minutes and move on to the next person

35:12

deal. And there's a good example

35:15

of learning the wrong lessons.

35:18

Before we move on, let's take a quick break back

35:20

on the self. Basically,

35:26

what you were saying is, Hey, there

35:28

was some shortcomings as a believer, but you

35:31

get better with Tom and you just continue

35:33

to continue to push your best footfall,

35:35

and hopefully that's what redemption looks

35:37

like, right as we all start to

35:40

look a little bit more like the god that

35:42

we were creating the image of a Now,

35:44

let me ask you this question. Do you have any regrets

35:47

from your time in public office? Oh?

35:49

Man, I have a lot. I mean, you know, it's

35:51

such a rare opportunity to get to do

35:54

it that you want to make certain you take maxim advantage

35:56

of. And there's lots of things that, oh boy,

35:58

if I had taken a different approach, which we might have gotten

36:00

that bill passed that lost in the legislature,

36:03

or if I had hired this person,

36:06

we might have been able to provide better services.

36:08

You make so many decisions

36:10

in office, and some of them are

36:12

good, but not all of them. But so do

36:14

I have some regrets for things I do differently? Yes?

36:17

Do I have any regret about doing

36:20

it? No? I still consider it

36:22

an incredible blessing to have had that calling

36:25

for for that period of my life. And

36:29

and that's good that you mentioned that. I appreciate

36:31

you you telling me that. And as a

36:34

person who has been a politician, I elected

36:36

by the people and of course need to represent

36:39

their constituents as you you did, and

36:41

look at their best interests. What happens if a politician's

36:44

conscious conflicts with what this constituents

36:46

want? Do you ever? Did you ever have that experience

36:48

as mayor a governor? Several times, and sometimes

36:51

not just your sometimes you're concentime, just

36:53

your your thoughtful opinion,

36:55

because as governor you might

36:57

know more of the situation than everyone

37:00

us, uh, and you might know

37:02

the rest of the story. So there were times

37:04

when you know, the overwhelming,

37:07

you know, volume of emails and phone calls

37:09

was do this or don't do that? That

37:11

We did not do what those

37:14

folks were saying. So sometimes it was for matters

37:16

of conscience what I what I felt

37:18

to be the right thing. And sometimes it was just at

37:20

the end of the day, my

37:22

my judgment on that issue. And I wouldn't

37:24

say it was necessarily a moral right or wrong, just

37:27

I hear you understand, But given

37:29

where I am and what I've learned about the situation,

37:32

this is the one the path that I

37:34

think is right, and so ultimately

37:36

the decision is with you, and you have to weigh

37:39

where you what you feel is the best decision

37:42

for your constituents, and

37:44

and how you feel as a as a moral reasoning.

37:48

Is that right? I think you did a nice job of summarizing.

37:50

Okay, now correct me

37:52

if I'm wrong, But I believe you did not vote

37:55

for Trump in No, I'd

37:57

said I was not going to uh

37:59

in in sixteen when some

38:01

of the issues came up. Actually, what I said was this

38:03

is when the whole scandal

38:06

around Billy Bush and oh yes,

38:08

yes, yes, I remember that Saturday,

38:10

trust me, I was on the phone with the R and

38:12

C. Yeah. Right, So at

38:14

the time, I just said, hey, I think it'd

38:16

be better for the Republican Party at this time, uh

38:19

if uh,

38:21

you know, if uh Trump

38:24

stepped aside and let Mike Pins be the candidate.

38:26

And I just at the time I thought that

38:28

that would be the right thing for the country. Okay,

38:30

So in you said that you

38:32

would vote for him if

38:34

he was the nominee. So what was

38:37

the change there? Well,

38:40

you know, listen, you know

38:42

anytime you talk about President Trump that you could go

38:44

into a long conversation right as you

38:46

did earlier about uh you

38:48

know, streaks and weaknesses. Um

38:51

and I don't I don't know if that's the that

38:53

that's something I want to delve into deep. Right, Like I said

38:56

in two thousands sixteen, I just felt really strongly,

38:58

given the circumstances, that was

39:00

not the right step forward for the Republican

39:03

Party or for the country. Okay,

39:06

but you had a change of heart

39:08

and you supported him. Well,

39:10

I'm not sure certain he would count me as among his most

39:13

fervidces. I'm

39:15

sure he has

39:18

a good long memory too. Yeah, I

39:20

know he, I know he does. Well.

39:22

For my final question, I want to ask you about the future

39:25

of the Republican Party. Do you think the

39:27

party is a in a good place today

39:29

and moving forward? What should a GOP be

39:32

doing and put itself in a better per I

39:34

think we're I think it's a really important

39:36

decision point that there's certain things that I think

39:38

if the party has always been strong about

39:40

that I want us to stay strong about about. I believe

39:43

in, you know, I believe the market

39:46

based economy we're in is a lot better than a socialist

39:48

based economy. I believe in Republican

39:51

Party's position on on matters

39:53

around um life and choice

39:55

of crow life and first row choice. I believe,

39:58

Um, the historic dance we put

40:00

on America playing a

40:02

leading role in the world are

40:05

really important. Um,

40:07

I don't think we've historically done a good job. What

40:09

I think is what I think President Trump realized

40:12

was there's a whole lot of America that feels left

40:14

behind. And they look at the Democrat Party

40:17

and say, they're talking about transgender

40:19

bathroom uses and that's

40:21

not where I am. And they look at the Republican Party

40:23

and say, it feels like a lot of country

40:25

club types. That's not me. And

40:27

they felt, you know, hey, this world changing

40:30

fast. I'm I'm feeling like I'm

40:32

being left behind here. Nobody's been concerned

40:34

about me, and I don't think

40:37

we can be that party and still be effective.

40:39

So Republicans need to do a better job at

40:41

outreach and bringing more people into the tent, especially

40:44

African Americans. I think Trump was really

40:46

gifted when it comes to that. Obviously,

40:48

he had some missteps and some things he perhaps shouldn't

40:51

have said. However, there

40:53

was no candidate or president

40:56

that I've seen that talked about black folks

40:58

and what he was going to do for them so much, and it

41:00

obviously paid dividends when it came

41:02

to election night nine as great as

41:05

some people might have predicted, but certainly

41:07

more than Democrats and most media expected.

41:10

Yeah, I think that's fair and that was what surprised

41:12

a lot of people in the election result. Is that not

41:15

just with Blacks, but with Thepanics,

41:18

the vote was. It was a lot different

41:20

than what people if. If you ask why the election

41:22

was closer than people are expecting, I

41:25

think that's it. Well, Governor,

41:28

thank you for joining Out Loud with Giano Caldwell.

41:30

Governor Bill Haslam and I certainly

41:32

appreciate it your your time today,

41:35

and I think one day we're gonna work together in some

41:37

capacity. We'll do something. But I hope

41:40

that we can stay in touch. Sincerely, now, I've

41:42

loved the conversation. Thanks for letting me be on the show.

41:49

I want to thank Governor Bill has Them again for a

41:51

great interview. If you're enjoying the show, please

41:53

leave us a review and rate us with five stars on Apple

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Podcast. If you have any questions for me, please

41:57

email me at Out Loud the Ginguish Come

42:00

and I'll try to answer them in our future episodes.

42:02

And please sign up for my monthly newsletter at

42:04

gingligh Street sixty dot com, slash out Loud.

42:07

You can also find me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook,

42:09

and parlor at Giano Caldwell. And if

42:11

you're interested in learning more about my story, please

42:13

pick up a copy of my best selling book title Taken

42:15

for Granted, How Conservatism Can Win back

42:18

to the Americans they Liberalism failed. Special

42:20

thanks to our producer John Cassio, researcher

42:22

Aaron Klinman, and executive producers Debbie Miners

42:24

and speaker New Gingwich, all part of the Ginglish

42:26

Street sixty network