0:00

Up next. Wow what Giano

0:02

called part of the gig which switch secually, we

0:05

all know that the black community votes overwhelmingly

0:07

for Democrats, so much so that the Democratic

0:10

Party takes the black vote for granted. Is it time

0:12

for black folks to take charge of their voting

0:14

habits. Today, one of the left leading

0:16

intellectuals and I debate the black

0:18

communities relationship with the Democratic Party.

0:20

This is allied with Gianno called well, thank

0:33

you Dr Mark Lamont Hill for joining

0:35

me today on all of Gianno called well, a lot

0:37

of folks know you as a very influential

0:40

brother on the left for your intellectual

0:42

Clearly you have your own show and

0:45

people may not realize that you Before

0:48

you were on CNN and all those different places. You

0:50

were on Fox News Channel doing weekly

0:53

ball Battle with Bill O'Reilly

0:56

and you did it. Yeah, Bill

0:58

really respected you. I remember this one particular

1:00

clip where he was giving an example

1:03

about a coke dealer and he said, hey, you look

1:05

like one, and you said, well, you look like somebody who does

1:08

coke. Those

1:11

were the good old days where you can make jokes and people

1:13

weren't as pc as they are now. So

1:16

definitely a different place to

1:18

be, so thank you for joining me again. That's

1:22

my pleasure, brother, it really is. Man. I

1:24

always love a good civil dialogue.

1:28

I've seen some recent chat on

1:30

social media's uh, that's what we're

1:32

here for today,

1:35

a good civil dialogue. So you

1:37

you're clearly a prominent voice on the left,

1:39

You've got a big platform,

1:41

and I wanted to figure out from you,

1:44

what do you think thus far Joe Biden's

1:46

presidency. It's a good question.

1:49

I first, I say that the Biden

1:51

presidency is exactly

1:54

what I expected it to be. It

1:57

is a

2:00

presidency that won't meet the needs of

2:02

the real left, but

2:05

it will irritate

2:08

the right significantly

2:11

because he's not the centrist that he campaigned

2:13

on either, And so what

2:16

you end up with is a presidency

2:18

that is slightly left of center

2:21

that problem, which is sort of what it promised to

2:23

be. But I would argue

2:25

not nearly as progressive as he promised

2:27

right, which was to be the most progressive president since l

2:29

B J or since FDR

2:32

Right. He ain't that. But

2:34

he's also not the right winger that some

2:36

people on the left was we're

2:38

afraid he would be. But he's also not

2:40

the socialist leader

2:43

that many people on the right are now pretending

2:45

that he is because of some of the spending that

2:47

he's doing and because some of the plans that he's trying

2:49

to enact. Well, I think a lot of folks

2:52

in the middle, you know, most voters

2:54

are in the middle. They're more so independent than

2:56

anything else. They were told

2:58

and sold on the fact that Joe Biden was going

3:00

to be a moderate, and I know you

3:03

said that, clearly he's not. A

3:05

lot of folks have said pre

3:07

election that progressives have said

3:10

that they were going to drag him to the left, and we clearly

3:12

see that happening. But what we're not

3:14

really seeing is any policy specific

3:16

and direct for African Americans, which

3:18

is the reason why he's in office today

3:21

because of the black vote. Black folks

3:23

seemingly, especially when it comes to

3:25

Democratic politicians, seem to

3:27

always get left out in the cold. They vote for him,

3:29

they rally for him, but they never

3:32

really get any tangibles for their support.

3:35

Why is that? You know, It's

3:38

an interesting question. And I'm somebody who sits

3:40

on the left and I've been critical

3:42

of the Democratic

3:45

Party for many years for this, I

3:47

wouldn't say we don't get anything for

3:49

Democratic votes but

3:51

we certainly don't get the kind of race targeted

3:54

policy and other

3:56

groups get. We are with political

3:58

scientists referred to as a captured electorate.

4:02

We uh, we ain't

4:04

going nowhere. The assumption is Black people

4:06

gonna vote Democrat no matter what happens,

4:08

and so very little is done to get

4:11

us to vote Democrat. What's done is to

4:13

get us motivated to vote at all. So,

4:15

in other words, if a h Black people

4:17

come out and vote, somewhere

4:19

between eight eight and ninety four of them are going

4:21

to vote Democrat. But if we don't

4:23

speak to their needs, you're

4:26

only gonna get a hundred. If you

4:28

speak to their needs or or you promise some stuff,

4:31

maybe three d come out, you'll still get

4:33

the same percentage, but you'll have a lower turnout. So

4:35

a big part of what Democrats strategy

4:38

has been is doing stuff to get

4:40

voter turnout, but not trying

4:42

to convince people to vote for them. And that's

4:44

something that you don't see with the Latino communities

4:46

for for lots of complex reasons, the

4:48

biggest of which is just internal political and ideological

4:51

diversity among the various types of Latin

4:53

X voters. White folks certainly

4:55

aren't trailed with an assumption that they're just going to vote

4:57

for whoever. And so I

5:00

think it's it's a big part of the fact. It's

5:02

largely do rather to the fact that black folks

5:05

don't have a lot of political options in a two party

5:07

system where they don't trust the Republican Party and

5:09

where they don't feel like Republican policy speaks to

5:11

their needs, and so they end up saying,

5:13

well, look, I don't trust these Democrats, I don't like these

5:15

Democrats. I like some of them, but

5:18

at the very at the end of the day, I know that they'll

5:20

do better for me than Republicans, and that becomes, uh,

5:23

the kind of endgame. And so you don't see the kind

5:25

of attempt to shift policy or

5:27

shape policy around African American needs and interests.

5:29

Well, you know what what's interesting is I did

5:31

see some

5:34

some various outreach from the Democrats,

5:36

especially calling Republicans racist

5:39

more so than they typically do, which we know

5:41

that exists in every election.

5:44

But because Donald Trump was doing

5:46

a lot of outreach to African Americans, especially

5:49

African American men, you saw al what he got in twenty

5:51

sixteen, which was a percent generally

5:53

the black vote to percent black men, and

5:55

this year for African American men who

5:58

had a high school diploma or below that they

6:01

voted for him to the tune I believe. So

6:04

we do see when there is some policy

6:06

tangibles. We talked about the first step back in the number of

6:08

these things that I know folks on the left

6:12

typically dismiss as

6:14

real and tangible efforts. We do

6:16

see black folks say, Okay,

6:18

I'm willing to give this a shot, give

6:21

it a chance. But we without

6:24

any real tangibles. Because

6:26

I'm from the South Side of Chicago, I've heard the song and thence

6:29

pretty much all my life. You know, white

6:31

Democrats are races, so we couldn't get

6:33

anything done for you. But we're gonna come back the next

6:35

election cycle. We're gonna have a fish fry,

6:38

a chicken cookout, and we're gonna

6:40

tell you what we're gonna do for you. And nothing gets done.

6:43

Wouldn't you? Would you advocate

6:45

for black folks just become an independent versus

6:47

being in that out which we saw

6:49

under Barack Obama In two thousand and eight, black

6:52

folks voted for Barack Obama. You know, it's

6:55

an interesting question. You asked first

6:58

let me get to the first one. I'm not convinced. I don't.

7:00

I don't concede that black men, particularly

7:03

educated black men, voted for Donald

7:05

Trump because of policy tangibles. And I'm not convinced

7:07

that that's the case. I

7:10

haven't, uh when I look at

7:13

so when I when I've interviewed folk and talked to folks,

7:16

that's not what I get. Now, I don't assume that my experience

7:18

is I don't confuse my experience for data. So I'm not going

7:20

to say that, you know, anecdotally what

7:23

I'm experiencing is necessarily the whole story.

7:26

But if I look at Trump's

7:29

proposed plans and I juxtaposed

7:31

that to say Ronald Reagan's plans or

7:34

say Mitt Romney's plans,

7:38

um, it's not that

7:41

Trump offered vastly

7:43

broader or even more targeted policies,

7:47

um, and yet black men voted for Trump

7:49

much more. I think that

7:52

there were several things that play here when

7:56

we look at Trump versus Hillary Clinton.

7:58

I think there's a very complex comm station

8:00

we have to have about gender, about whether

8:03

black men are willing to vote for a white woman,

8:06

and whether they were willing to vote for a Clinton in

8:08

particular of whether they're male

8:10

or female at this stage in history, given everything

8:12

that happened with Clinton's in the nineties. UM.

8:15

The second piece of it, though, in the second

8:17

election of Trump, the second election

8:19

that he lost, is an

8:22

interesting connection that many black male voters

8:24

had to Donald

8:27

Trump. And there's something about Donald

8:29

Trump's personalities or something about the way that he

8:31

navigates the world that does sort

8:34

of resonate with certain voters. And

8:36

I'm not sure that it's because of,

8:39

you know, Trump's vision of school choice or because

8:42

of Trump's understanding of the free market.

8:44

I don't think it's necessarily because you

8:47

know, any particular policy,

8:49

as much as as it is who Trump represents,

8:51

which I think is deeply problematic. But the

8:53

second part of your your question, I think

8:56

we is where we probably find some common ground.

8:59

I don't believe black voters should be have allegiance

9:01

to the Democratic Party. Now. I happen to be a Green Party member,

9:03

and I've been a Green Party member almost

9:06

all of my voting life. I

9:08

voted for Joe Biden in this last election. It was the first

9:11

time since I've been voting for presidents

9:13

that I can remember that I voted for

9:15

a Democrat and in an election,

9:17

and it was for me, it was because of the particular stakes

9:19

of this election. But I say that the

9:21

same I'm still able to

9:23

weigh in on policy, I'm still able to be part

9:25

of the conversation. I'm still able to

9:28

drag Joe Biden in the direction that I want them to

9:30

be dragged. But the Democratic Party

9:32

doesn't take for granted I'm going to vote for them.

9:34

And I think that if black people had that kind

9:37

of flexibility, it

9:40

would be fine. But if all black folks are

9:42

registered independent but they still vote Democrat

9:44

every single time, then

9:47

you end up in the same vote. Democrats don't care whether you're registered

9:49

or not. I mean, it might matter for the primary, but in general, Democrats

9:52

want are you gonna vote for us? So if a whole bunch of independent

9:54

black folks still voted for Democrat in every

9:56

election, I'm not sure that changed anything. So

9:58

black folks don't have to just change your affiliation

10:00

with to actually change how we vote, not

10:02

just in the national election, but particularly

10:05

in these local and state wide elections. Okay,

10:07

do so do you think folks

10:09

are gonna answer that call? And and

10:12

before you answer that question, because you were

10:14

saying, hey, you don't know the reason why so

10:16

many voted for Trump if his personality

10:19

what what the case may be, And and many

10:21

could argue that the personality was a part

10:23

of it. Certainly people were attracted to his

10:25

personality. Is bravado all

10:28

of that that that alpha male type energy.

10:30

So yeah, I can understand that piece. But we also

10:32

if we're looking at the data just in terms

10:35

of how well black folks did over four

10:37

years, by the time he was leaving it

10:39

was he was up for election. Rather during

10:41

that time of the election cycle, unemployment

10:44

in the black community was it is lowest

10:46

on record five hispanics.

10:50

These are tangibles. You talk about

10:52

the deregulation of the economy and how it benefited

10:54

everyone. It wasn't just the wealthiest.

10:57

Again, they would gain more

10:59

because they pay the most in taxes. But certainly

11:01

there was some tangible benefits, unlike

11:04

what we're seeing with Joe Biden, who's regulating

11:07

the economy and he's coming out with a lot

11:09

of kind of uh, welfare

11:11

initiatives if you will, to say

11:13

this is what I'm gonna do for the black community, when the black

11:16

community actually need jobs, not welfare

11:18

programs. Here's what I following

11:20

them because you're saying that

11:22

that the demographic

11:25

of blackmail voters who voted the most Trump

11:27

board between earners, of which I

11:30

said that the original number that I stated

11:33

with those who had high school diplomas are below

11:35

overall in terms of black folks,

11:38

has supported him black men, I believe it was almost

11:41

My understanding is, and I don't have the data in front of me. That's

11:43

why I don't. I don't want to speak with certainty, but my

11:45

understanding of the data was that the highest

11:47

slights of black men who voted for Trump were actually those

11:49

who had higher educational attainment and higher

11:52

income. Yeah, I don't, I don't have the

11:54

data to support that that particular conclusion.

11:56

But but but but so because it's interesting to think about

12:00

the most vulnerable people are voting for Trump workers,

12:02

people who honestly are fairly recession

12:05

proof. For example, you know, when you look

12:07

at black men who make over seventy dollars

12:09

a year, who have graduate degrees or college

12:11

degrees, they're they're they're not recession proof per

12:13

se, but they certainly are less vulnerable to the whims

12:15

of the economy than say, someone with a high

12:17

school diploma and someone who's making minimum wage.

12:20

And so I'm always fascinated to know which

12:22

slices of our population,

12:25

of of our community are finding

12:28

residents with Trump's message. But but again, black

12:31

voting patterns with regard to Republicans

12:33

aren't don't necessarily hindle on the economy. So

12:36

you could look at moments under George

12:38

W. Bush when the economy

12:41

was fairly strong, right particularly

12:45

the first two years of his presidency,

12:47

and when you when he goes up for re election in

12:51

two thousand and four and John

12:53

Carey's on the table, it could have made

12:55

complete sense to vote for George Bush based on the

12:57

economy at that at that time.

12:59

But they didn't because there's something about

13:01

George W. Bush that didn't resonate with them. And of

13:03

course we have nine eleven, we have the Iraq War, we

13:06

have weapons of mass instruction, there are other conversations

13:08

going on. Similarly, you could look

13:10

at the economy under the kind of small

13:12

government except for the military Ronald

13:16

Reagan years, and you see a very interesting voting

13:18

pattern. Black men are not They're voting for

13:20

Reagan more than they did George H.

13:22

W. Bush. George W. Bush, UH and

13:24

and uh and John McCain, etcetera.

13:28

But they're still not voting as higher numbers

13:30

they are for Trump, despite the fact that based

13:32

on just the economic metrics, you could make a case

13:34

for it. And so I think

13:36

it's really complicated. I think that black

13:39

people are are

13:41

committed to the Democratic

13:43

Party as as a cultural move,

13:46

as a confidence move, and to a large

13:48

extent, as as a for policy reasons.

13:51

But I do think that Donald

13:53

Trump might be an anomaly. And

13:56

I wonder and we'll know, and you will

13:58

certainly know in three years, right when when when

14:00

these when when we campaigning again and

14:04

and Republicans are attempting to rest

14:06

control of the White House again. If

14:09

Donald Trump runs again, will know, we'll

14:11

have an answer. But assuming Donald Trump doesn't

14:13

run, it will be interesting to see if anyone

14:15

else in the GOP can get the kind of support

14:18

that the Donald Trump got. I think it's an anomaly.

14:20

I think it's I don't see it happening again.

14:22

Well, there's one indicator that I think

14:25

that you you you didn't reference there, and

14:27

that's the fact that Donald Trump has been

14:29

the only president to my knowledge or really

14:31

in my lifetime, that has went after the

14:33

black vote in such a way that

14:36

it was almost his every conversation

14:38

when he was running in sixteen. He will be before

14:40

all white audiences and you will say the

14:42

Democratic Party of taking black people for granted.

14:44

Republicans were afraid to use that kind

14:46

of language, and they certainly were afraid to

14:49

be looking to recruit African

14:52

Americans to support them, and

14:54

in the same way that Donald Trump did. You don't even

14:56

see Democrats per sely go after

14:58

the black vote in the way that Donald Trump

15:01

did so. If, for example, he doesn't

15:03

run for a second

15:05

goal at it, rather a third

15:07

go at it, he and the

15:10

next person to say, if it's rhond de Santas or

15:12

someone else, they may not go after

15:14

the black vote in the way that Donald Trump did so, then

15:16

that would make him an anomalo. So

15:18

that that's a fair point. I

15:21

think you're right. I think it

15:23

would be so unwise though general

15:25

like if after watching Donald

15:27

Trump, despite all the drama,

15:30

all the messiness of his of his presidency,

15:32

um secure that much of the Black vote,

15:35

it would be full foolish for

15:37

the Republican Party. Whoever, the next standard bear

15:39

is to not follow Donald Trump's blueprint

15:42

one at least targeting the

15:44

black vote and Donald Trump didn't just

15:46

do it during the election. I mean, we're in the kind of moment

15:48

of the called the doctrine of the

15:50

permanent campaign, which is kind of post George

15:52

W. Bush, where you're always campaigning. But

15:55

but Donald Trump was very particularly to say, look, from

15:57

day one until day whatever,

15:59

I'm going to constantly be speaking to the black

16:01

community. You know, whether it was bringing

16:03

HPCU presidents into the White House, whether it

16:05

was you know, meeting at Trump Tower with everybody

16:08

from Jim Brown to Steve Harvey too. I

16:10

mean, this stuff matters. Now. I

16:12

disagree with it as a tactic and as

16:15

a strategy, as a philosophy, and

16:17

as a policy move Donald

16:19

Trump or not just don't see the world the same way. So I don't

16:21

agree with him. But if I were in

16:24

charge of the GOP, or if I were managing

16:26

the next presidential campaign for the Republicans, I

16:29

would absolutely say, look, Donald Trump, just

16:31

because Donald Trump did it don't mean it's wrong. You

16:33

know, donaldrup did a lot of stuff right tactically,

16:36

and one of those things was targeting in the black community

16:38

in the way that he did. And so

16:41

for me, you know, I

16:44

I think you're right that if the next person does with the GOP

16:47

usually does. It wouldn't be at apples and apples

16:49

comparison. I just have enough faith

16:51

in politicians ability to do it's best for them

16:54

to think that now that they see that it works,

16:57

that they'll do it. I mean, if you remember, uh

17:00

guess it's been over ten years and now kind of time moves so quickly.

17:02

But after just getting smashed

17:05

in in an election, Bobby

17:07

Jendo did the autopsy of the GOP

17:10

and he's you know, and and and

17:12

he said, look at where we are, look

17:15

at what we're doing, look at what we're not doing, and here's

17:17

you know. And they made other problems. One

17:20

of them, of course, was the tent was getting smaller. The

17:23

Republicans too often said we're gonna double down

17:25

on what's already worked. Trump's

17:28

had found a way to do both. He found a way and

17:30

you and I may not agree on this, but he found a way to

17:32

appeal to the most racist sector in America

17:35

at the same time that he said I want some black

17:38

people on board. I mean, it

17:40

was it's actually quite stunning how

17:42

how he was able to kind

17:45

of speak to the

17:47

populations that are so desparate and

17:50

be so successful at getting one

17:52

side and getting enough of the black vote to make

17:54

him competitive in every state. That's

17:57

that takes more than the notion. You know, I

17:59

disagree with you on that point, but we'll debate more

18:01

after this quick break. Let's

18:08

be clear, there were some people that were racist. Didn't

18:11

they did like what he said? Okay,

18:14

that's fair, that's fair. There

18:16

were some people. There were some people,

18:18

so that's but that's gonna be the case with

18:20

Joe Biden's base too. There will be some raceist

18:22

that say, I like some of the things that Joe Biden says.

18:24

That happens on both sides. But

18:26

if you yeah, But if we're

18:29

big artists, I think it'll

18:31

be safe to say that if you were to take the

18:34

one million most racist people in America

18:38

and and line them up and ask

18:40

who they voted for it, would you would you agree that they would that

18:43

Trump would would would win by landslide. I

18:46

don't have the people, I don't have any

18:48

data to support that conclusion. But if we were to say,

18:51

a candidate who's using some language

18:53

that may not be racially sensitive

18:55

at times, will both of them with be

18:58

be in that category or are candidate

19:01

who's literally legislated policy

19:03

to put as many black men in jail as possible,

19:06

who's used the N word on the floor of

19:08

of of Congress, multiple

19:11

times, whether it be he was repeating

19:13

what someone said or not. I think

19:15

most racists would say, hey, give me that person.

19:17

You don't name Trump or Biden. They would say, give me

19:19

that person, and that person would be Joe Biden. Yeah,

19:22

I think out of context that could be true. But I

19:24

guess I'm making a different argument. My argument here

19:27

isn't about whether or not Trump is racist or whether

19:29

Trump is even intending, and that's

19:31

not That's not what I'm arguing either. My point

19:33

is, yeah, I'm just saying. I'm

19:36

just saying that if you look, if you go to

19:39

rallies taking my golf

19:41

the table for a minute, if you if you if

19:43

you just if you look at the people who are marching

19:45

in Charlottesville right

19:47

for as an example, just I

19:49

think it would be dishonest to suggest

19:52

that those people are marching to tear down who are

19:54

protesting the tearing down Confederate statues, Those

19:57

people who are anti Semitic, anti

19:59

black, et cetera. Are also voting also

20:02

voted for Hillary Clinton, in the previous election. I

20:04

think that would be an unreasonable um

20:07

interpretation. Now whether Trump,

20:10

I'm not so when I say Trump is appealing to them.

20:12

I'm not even making at this moment a judgment

20:14

about whether or not he wants to or

20:16

not. I'm not making a judgment about whether it's his fault or

20:18

not. I'm not making it he's more or less racist

20:20

than his opponent claim at all. I'm simply

20:23

saying that Trump's campaign and Trump's

20:25

president seemed to appeal

20:28

to those people. Those who made a choice for president. They

20:30

chose Trump, and lots of other people chose

20:32

I'm true. I'm not saying that everybody who voted for Trump

20:34

was racist, but I think if you're a racist, it's

20:36

much more likely you voted for Donald Trump than Hillary

20:39

Clinton in two thousand and sixteen and then in two

20:41

thousand and twenty. I would make the same for Biden. But

20:43

I have no I make

20:45

no I do not believe that Joe Biden is racist.

20:48

But I absolutely

20:51

could dissect Joe Biden's career

20:54

and point out numerous instances

20:56

where he said some racist stuff, or did some

20:58

racist stuff, or reported a racist

21:00

policy. Absolutely I would agree

21:03

with you a thousand percent. But just to be clear,

21:05

you know, when we talk about the crime bill, for example,

21:07

or three strikes or the welfare reformat wealfare

21:10

reformat, or the prison litigation reformat. All

21:12

of these policies that emerged in the nineties, Democrats

21:15

were in control or but Republicans supported

21:18

them as well. So for me, it need

21:22

you don't think you don't think

21:24

that Republicans supported the welfare wealth reform

21:27

no wealthfare reform. Yeah,

21:29

but I don't I don't understand where where that would

21:31

be institutional racism or racism generally.

21:33

The ninety four crime bill. You said holistically,

21:36

you mentioned a bunch of policies, and you said

21:39

Democrats supported the Republicans supported

21:41

them as well. Republicans as

21:43

a whole did not support the ninety four crime

21:45

bill. There were some Republicans that voted for, but

21:47

the majority that voted for that was

21:49

Democrats. If

21:52

we look at I don't have the I'm gonna put up

21:54

the rod call now. But no, that's it's angry.

21:56

You can take you can take my word is fact. The

21:59

majority that voted for the institutional

22:01

rate because my colleagues a lot of them don't believe in institution

22:03

racism. I get it. I do. I

22:05

think it exists. In the ninety four crime Bill, most

22:08

majority Democrats supported it. I'm

22:11

not I'm not distributing that, but I'm looking

22:13

I'm literally looking at the crime deal. Now everybody supported

22:16

the crime That's not true. It was. It

22:18

was ninety five years and four days and one

22:20

he didn't vote. Were you looking at

22:22

the you're looking at the Senate

22:25

right now, look at the House. But

22:29

I mean, let's and then I was wondering, what exactly

22:32

are you looking at? Because the majority of folks

22:34

that voted for it, and who was it? What was the

22:36

makeup in the Senate at that time too, That's

22:39

another consideration. But the majority of the folks,

22:41

especially when you look at the House of Representatives the word

22:43

democrats, right, But we're

22:45

talking about that the Senate where Joe Biden was, right,

22:48

Joey wasn't in the House, he was in Senate. So

22:52

my point is everybody voted

22:54

for it. I'm not. I'm not making a claim that Republicans

22:57

were more forward. Wait, just

22:59

maybe we're talking abow diferent things. You you

23:01

you you agree that in the Senate nearly everyone, it

23:03

was nearly unanimous support for the crime bill.

23:06

You agree with that, right, No, I don't agree

23:08

with that. I gotta look at that record. I

23:10

don't think I'm okay.

23:12

I mean, I'm talking about the majority already

23:15

stands. The majority party stands. Was the Democrats

23:17

supported it. It It was their issue, their bill. Uh.

23:20

Jesse Jackson, Jackse Jackson

23:22

went and sat down in the Judiciary

23:24

Committee and he said this was gonna

23:26

cause mass incarceration. And he was

23:28

absolutely right. And he was the spokesperson for the

23:31

black community at that time, one in which Democrats

23:34

supported. So with

23:36

that hold on, I'm confused

23:38

because this is just a matter of fact. I'm looking. There were

23:42

four days and one instention. So

23:47

again in the Senate, I

23:49

mean, we can't really disagree on this, right, I mean,

23:51

this is a matter of fact. Right, Almost

23:54

everybody voted for it. Only four people out of a hundred

23:56

said no, that's a fact. You still think that

23:59

that most people didn't vot for it. Look at the House,

24:01

Look at the House totals. I'm only

24:03

talking about the Senate because I'm talking about Joe Biden. I'm

24:06

saying that Joe Biden. I'm saying that Joe Biden supported

24:08

it. Right. I agree,

24:10

Democrats supported it. Democrats advanced

24:13

this was a project. In fact, this was one of the

24:15

policy. But you said

24:17

Republicans and Democrats everybody

24:20

voted for it. That would means if everyone

24:22

voted for everyone in the House and everyone

24:24

in the Senate would have to have supported it. That is

24:26

inaccurate. It's factually that's

24:30

not what I'm saying

24:31

that I'm saying so

24:34

clearly we're miscommunicating. So so that we could be

24:36

on the same page. I'm saying in the Senate

24:39

where Joe Biden was, where Joe

24:42

Biden advance, that was a serving architect in advance

24:45

a policy that had detrimental impacts on the black community.

24:47

I agreed, most it was a democratic

24:49

project. I agree. I'm saying that

24:51

Republicans also supported it, that this was

24:53

not a u and

24:57

I conceded that point from the beginning. I said that there

24:59

were some report Republicans that did support

25:01

it. That's what I said that I said, the majority, the

25:03

majority that supported the bill, we're Democrats,

25:05

That's what I said. We're on the same page,

25:09

right, I'm saying, But the majority of Republicans who

25:11

were in the Senate also voted for it. We agree

25:13

with that too, right, I

25:15

was listening to your point in terms of the majority.

25:17

I don't know what the Senate totals are. So

25:20

if you say that that's the case, but that's still

25:22

but that's still we're talking about over four hundred people

25:24

in the House of Representatives. We're still there's

25:26

still more Democrats supported it than Republicans.

25:30

So that's the point there. Move

25:32

on. Yeah, I'm

25:34

I'm not I'm not just I'm not just agreeing with that. Right,

25:36

we were on the same page from the beginning. I said the

25:38

majority supported it, and some Republicans

25:41

did supported Sure, but

25:43

it wasn't just majority of Democrats. I

25:47

have. I have no dog in the dimocrats. I'm fine saying with

25:49

Democrats supported I have. That's I'm saying.

25:51

Yes, I'm that's never been in the street for me. My

25:53

overall point in saying this is to say that I

25:56

don't look at the Crime Bill or

25:58

any of these other and I did. It wasn't just some of the crime but

26:00

like I said, the Welfare reformat, prison Lilegation REFORMAC these

26:02

were all bills that were they all

26:05

and I was speaking about all four of the bills that a

26:07

one time that was the other thing. I wasn't speaking just of the House.

26:10

That's that's not true, because you lumped

26:13

them all in there. There you go, right, And

26:15

what what I'm saying is if we look at if we look at this

26:17

body of work emerging in the nineties, there

26:20

were not Republicans saying, no, we should get softer

26:22

on crime. There were there, they were not.

26:24

In fact, most of the if you remember, most of the

26:27

opposition, Republican opposition to

26:29

these bills were about the details of the bill, not against

26:31

the premise of the bill. Right as you as you

26:33

know in Congress, it's it's the devil's in the details.

26:35

People saying we don't want pork, we don't want these add

26:37

ons, we don't we don't want to people

26:40

Democrats and Republicans sins were smuggling other

26:43

things on a on a bill that has nothing to do with

26:45

the thing they're talking about. We saw with the COVID release

26:48

package. But there were there were not a string of Republicans

26:50

saying, no, we should we shouldn't, we shouldn't

26:52

give we shouldn't have welfare from No, we shouldn't be the soft

26:54

tougher on prisons form.

26:59

For I'm not making

27:01

a case about what

27:03

I'm making. The case when

27:05

it comes to legislation and bills is the

27:07

devil's is in the details, and people put pork

27:10

in it and things that Okay, got it all right, I understand

27:12

absolutely, But also but also the Clinton

27:14

presidency. Clinton was very strategic and saying.

27:16

Clinton had a series of policies that he knew would

27:19

be palatable to the mainstream, and

27:22

he knew that would um make

27:24

him seem like a centrist, and and

27:27

and and Bill Clinton was quite savvy in this, and he understood

27:30

that the crime bill here said, the string

27:32

of bills that we just talked about, would

27:35

be things that would make him look reasonable and

27:37

tough and quite frankly, in many ways, it

27:39

was the Clinton campaign and Clinton administration that threw black

27:41

people under the bus because they said,

27:44

well, if if I could be a two term president

27:46

by governing this way, by by by attempting

27:48

to govern from the center. Um. Of

27:51

course they say now they regreted. It's very easy to

27:53

regret things twenty years later, thirty years

27:55

later. It's very easy to regret things when there's nothing at stake.

27:57

That the question is, do you know, how did you feel

27:59

when you were when you're in the midst of doing

28:01

it, and was it just an air of judgment or was

28:04

it what you wasn't that you did whatever you needed

28:06

to do to succeed. And so when I look at

28:08

that, I say, Joe

28:11

Biden's a little bit of both. Joe Biden's. You don't get

28:13

to be a career politician. You don't get to be in the Senate

28:15

for all that time and and

28:18

not have to make some calculations that are

28:20

not ethically strong. Right, you're but

28:23

you can convince yourself that you're looking big picture. And

28:26

then there's a way that I think Joe Biden has grown. I think

28:28

that's way that Joe Biden has been challenged

28:30

and pushed and made to look at the world differently.

28:32

And I appreciate that in him, and I think there are a lot of politicians

28:34

like that. I don't think it's just Joe Biden. And

28:37

So when I think about racism,

28:41

and I think about what

28:43

it means to live in a country where they're still lingering racism,

28:46

and I think about who who

28:48

those people to tend to vote for. They

28:51

tend not to vote for people who speak about

28:53

racial diversity. It's not to vote for people who say black

28:55

lives matter. They tend not to vote for people who

28:58

want to reform police, you know, all

29:01

things that Joe Biden has talked about. Even though again I

29:03

don't Joe Joe. I happen to think Joe Biden

29:05

is not strong enough on these issues. I don't. I'm

29:07

deeply critical of Joe Biden on these issues. But

29:10

it's hard for me to imagine that someone who

29:12

supports police votes for Joe Biden if

29:14

that's their pride, if if they're voting on

29:16

that issue. Obviously, people aren't single

29:18

issue voters all the time. Um, it's hard for me

29:21

to believe that somebody who cares

29:23

about the environment, I'm

29:25

sorry, who who who doesn't believe in global warming

29:28

for example, or someone who wants to put out the Parents Accords

29:30

hard to believe they vote for Joe Biden. It's

29:32

complicated because, you know, voters vote for lots

29:35

of reasons. That's that's true. People vote

29:37

for lots of reasons. And I

29:39

think a lot of people, especially some

29:42

prominent black folks. I'm not sure if you know Terik Nashid

29:45

or not. He's he's been on a podcast

29:47

he believes or rather he has said that he believes

29:49

that Joe Biden is a suspected white supremacist,

29:52

which he has a you know, big following,

29:54

as you know, and he had he said some very insightful

29:56

things. He says some really insightful things on

29:59

the podcast that made me think and say, man,

30:01

I never thought about it that way. That's interesting.

30:04

So when we talk about these policy is

30:07

very smart, Yeah, very very smart, very very

30:09

smart, very smart, both a lot of insightful

30:12

thoughts and comments on lots of issues. Indeed,

30:15

indeed, now you you

30:17

were saying that, and I'm not trying to

30:19

stay on the ninety four crime bill because there's so much other

30:21

things to be talking about than that, But you were saying

30:23

that with Bill Clinton. It's

30:27

interesting how you can say that you regret something twenty

30:29

years ago. What Joe Biden is in office right now. It

30:31

was his crime bill. We've not seen any policy

30:33

pushed forward in terms of reversing some of the draconian

30:36

effects of that that crime bill. We

30:38

saw with Donald Trump, he pulled out the first

30:40

step back, which was what he said

30:42

to be the first step and

30:45

reversing these these negative

30:47

effects. What are you doing to push

30:50

folks on the Joe Biden's

30:52

team on the left to tell him that he

30:54

needs to right these wrongs

30:57

that continue to devastate

30:59

the black community to this day. You know, Um,

31:03

for me, the strongest thing we can do is take to the streets

31:05

and and mobilize our votes. Those are

31:08

two separate things, right, there's protesting this voting,

31:10

and for me, both of those things are key. You

31:12

know, I've met uh and

31:15

publicly and behind the scenes with many lawmakers

31:17

in the last few years to talk about these

31:19

issues. I'm an abolitionist. I believe in the abolition

31:21

of police and abolition of prisons. So

31:24

Joe Biden and I will never be on the same page. But

31:27

what I can do is make

31:29

moves and support the types of

31:32

reforms that aren't antithetical

31:34

to the project of abolition. In other words, I

31:36

don't believe in reform as the solution, but I don't

31:39

I don't oppose reforms

31:41

that that can make create more

31:43

livable lives as we fight to produce

31:46

this new world, this ultimate world, which might we might

31:48

be decades from, we might be centuries from who knows,

31:51

But but we have to we have to fight and live in the world

31:53

that we're in. Right now, And for me, that means,

31:55

for example, pushing Joe Biden

31:58

to say, hey, what about what about cash bail? Pushing

32:00

Joe Biden saying, hey, what about privately funded prisons, federal

32:03

prisons. These are things that we pushed them on

32:05

during the campaign, and it's paid off because

32:07

he's already saying no, no,

32:11

you know, no to privatize federal prisons.

32:13

You know, you know Obama had already

32:16

said a note to cash bail and

32:18

uh in federal prisons. Definitely. We're

32:20

pushing on, pushing against the death penalty,

32:23

pushing for retroactive parole,

32:26

in release for people who incarcerated

32:28

for for for marijuana in the nineties,

32:31

who got these draconian sentences under

32:34

under these various laws. These are

32:36

things that we can do right now. And these things that I'm doing to

32:38

push Joe Biden, but not just to push Joe

32:40

Biden, but to push state level law making,

32:42

because so much of the stuff happens at the state level, and we gotta push

32:44

them to Okay, So I'm

32:46

hearing what you're saying, and it's two things that pop

32:49

out. One, Um, I

32:51

get getting rid of the private prisons, But are

32:53

you saying that you're are you against all prisons

32:56

or just private prisons? Against

32:59

prisons? I believe in the abolition of prisons. Yeah, so

33:02

so what do you so? What do you do with the people? Who? Who?

33:05

And I know you have I'm not sure how many children

33:07

you have, but I know you have a daughter. So someone tries

33:10

to do anything to hurt what do you what do you

33:12

do? You take the law into your own hands or what is

33:15

it you would advocate to

33:17

prevent the destruction of life? And

33:20

what criminal penal? Is there any criminal penalties?

33:22

Do they go in the corner for a few hours? And what?

33:25

What? What? What are we doing? Well?

33:28

I think there's a lot of um, there's

33:30

a lot of space between putting someone

33:33

in a cage and sitting someone in a corner.

33:35

Right, There's there's lots of ways that we can reimagine the world.

33:39

Yeah, no, I know what I mean. These

33:41

are the questions I get asked all the time. Right, is

33:43

it a slap on the wrist? You know? Do we get people

33:46

slap on the wrist or do we you know? And if

33:48

because people can only think in extremes, because that's how

33:50

we've been talked to things, Right, We've been We've been only talked

33:52

to think about the extremes,

33:54

which are either we lock of people

33:56

in cages for years or decades or their

33:58

whole life. Are we kill them or we

34:00

do nothing? And Um,

34:04

the first thing I say to you, because it's it's an it's

34:06

an important question you're asking, UM,

34:08

the first thing I say is, well, I don't think

34:11

about this

34:14

purely in those extremes. Right the bulk of the

34:16

cases, the bulk of the people sitting

34:18

in prisons right now aren't there for violent crimes. The bulk

34:20

of people in prison aren't there as serial killers and rapists

34:23

and murderers and etcetera. Right

34:26

if they were, there

34:28

are two point five million of those, we might be having a different

34:31

conversation. So I think

34:33

about, um, the various

34:35

ways that the prison is used right now to cage

34:37

people, uh, for crimes

34:40

of need, for crimes of addiction, for crimes

34:42

of of mental illness, for crimes of homelessness,

34:45

for crimes of poverty. And the first

34:47

thing that we always talked about is investing in the world

34:49

in such a way that those crimes are

34:51

not necessary, That people aren't stealing

34:53

to eat, that people aren't stealing to live, that people aren't selling

34:55

drugs out of this session, that

34:57

people are using drugs to treat mental illness

35:00

UM, and that we understand drug addiction as a mental

35:03

as a mental as a mental as a medical problem,

35:05

rather than as a as a criminal problem. So

35:07

part of what we have to do is really is a strip away

35:09

are the logic of criminalization, so that we

35:12

don't always criminalize everything. I'm still

35:14

getting to your crazy serial killer question.

35:16

I'm just I'm just explaining that that that's the which

35:18

is because I think that's the right question. No, I think it's the right and

35:21

fair question because people aren't scared of

35:23

the person steals a TV in the same way to scared of the person

35:25

who might sexually assault them. So I'm

35:28

I'm with you. I don't want you to think I'm avoiding your question.

35:30

I'm just saying I think that we tend to only

35:32

thinking those narrow terms right of

35:34

of what happens to that small slites

35:37

of people in prison for that, UM,

35:39

I think about so so. So

35:41

it's about that. It's about imagining

35:44

what the world would be like if we had uh

35:46

decarceration. For

35:49

me, prison never listens about decarceration. It's

35:51

about saying how can we empty the prisons

35:53

now? And during COVID we saw lots

35:55

of signals as to how that's possible. A

35:57

whole bunch of people didn't get A whole bunch of people did

36:00

do their time. We let them out. They

36:02

were aging, they were dying, they

36:05

were sick, they want to threat to society more,

36:07

and we said, you know, we can let these people out. We did it

36:09

for health reasons, but the truth is we could have done it a

36:11

year prior with with the same consequence. Right

36:13

they were. They weren't more or less of a danger because of

36:15

COVID. We let them out because they weren't really threat

36:17

to society anymore. So we have way more people caged

36:20

than we need to. We cage people when

36:22

they don't have enough money to pay for their bail. So

36:25

essentially you're in jail because you don't have enough money not to be in

36:27

jail. That's an evil system. You

36:30

should that's it. Sinmily becomes a debtor's prison. So we

36:32

can decarceerate that way. We can decarcate

36:34

by giving people suspended sentences by right by

36:37

doing work release, by doing community based

36:40

um action, community based

36:42

dispute resolution as opposed to

36:44

adjudicating things in courts and lead to prison. We

36:47

can empty out so much of the prison

36:50

without separating fathers and mothers from their

36:52

families, without breaking down communities,

36:54

without stripping away so much of what

36:57

we need excarceration.

36:59

As an other part of what I'm talking about, um, it

37:01

means that some of the party because

37:04

part of your questions is what do we do when people commit crimes?

37:06

But remember crimes of social constructs? Right?

37:10

Okay, I mean, I mean

37:12

they are right. You would

37:14

agree that everything you there's laws

37:16

that are past and people feel whatever it's

37:18

criminal behavior, they provide a punishment

37:21

for it. Okay, got it. So

37:23

you agree that crimes is a social construct

37:26

They're created by people, They're created by lawmakers.

37:33

You laughed at you don't want your audience, No no, no, no, no, no,

37:35

no no no, because I'm listening

37:37

to where you're going with it, because

37:39

okay, let's let's continue. I want to hear. I want

37:41

to hear you. I want to hear. The reason I'm saying that, because

37:44

so much of our attachment to things once might commit to

37:46

crime, is that many of the things that we as a society

37:49

agree on his crime shift from time to time. For

37:51

example, when you when I was

37:53

growing up, Um, if you told

37:55

me somebody was smoking weed, we oh my god,

37:58

you know what I mean. Now it's like you're smoking weed? Do

38:00

I mean? People joke about it, people talk about it. You can you can

38:02

run for president. I mean even Bill Clinton inhaling

38:04

with he had to lie about it. How much Weedy spoke just

38:06

to be president? Right, And it was

38:08

like wink wink. But like now, if you told me somebody

38:10

smoke we nobody would trip about it. Right. So, but

38:13

that was a crime, and and and

38:15

so learning to read was a crime for black

38:17

folk at one point, right, black people and white

38:20

people getting married was a crime at

38:22

one point in history. So so what I'm saying

38:24

is just because it's a crime doesn't necessarily mean

38:26

that we have to punish it. We can reimagine

38:29

what crime is and say, okay, is everything

38:31

that we consider a crime actually

38:35

something that we as a society want to commit

38:37

to punishing. Now, some things I

38:39

think in any juncture in history we

38:42

might say should be a crime, there are

38:44

other things a hundred years ago

38:46

that should have been crimes that worked. I mean, there

38:48

was a time where you could beat slaves legally, right,

38:51

that should have been a crime. Uh. You know,

38:53

sexual assault, particularly among married people did

38:55

not exist. That should have been a crime. So I'm not. You

38:58

know, lynching or lynching was act and legal, they

39:00

just didn't care. But so my

39:02

point is I'm not. My point is that crime

39:05

is people don't commit crimes.

39:07

They commit acts, and then society decides

39:09

whether these things are criminal or not. So another

39:11

piece of this X carceration is making

39:13

the is making the determination about

39:17

whether or not all the things that we call crimes

39:19

need to be And I'll give you a concrete example. Uh,

39:22

smoking crack. Right,

39:24

you grew up in Chicago, you had crackheads

39:27

as they called them, Right, they call people crackhead. The

39:29

crackhead was seen as somebody

39:32

who was not just making a bad choice, but

39:35

somebody who was a bad person. Juxtaposed

39:38

crackhead with the cocaine. Right, you could

39:40

have a cocad lawyer, You

39:42

can have a cokehead accountant.

39:47

You could have a cocade holding that goes to college when you gets

39:49

high and he goes to class the next day. And we

39:51

didn't we would say, yo, he's making a bad choice.

39:54

But the crackhead was a bad person.

39:57

So it was much easier to imagine taking of

40:00

one addicted to crack and put them

40:02

in jail, because because that's where bad people

40:04

go. Then it is to take that

40:06

that that rich guy sniffing

40:08

coke in his office before he goes to a board meeting,

40:11

right, And that's abound race. That's about classes, about

40:13

gender, it's about lots of stuff. And so

40:15

my point is we

40:18

have to strip away some of our some of these ideas

40:20

we have about crime. You know, do

40:22

we really do we need to criminalize sex work? Do

40:24

we need to criminalize two people in the corner shooting dice?

40:27

Because there's plenty people some Sich Chicago shooting dice

40:30

and you don't care about that when you walk past, and you don't

40:32

really think they need to be in jail for for illegal gambling.

40:34

But it's still illegal. So we have to ask ourselves

40:37

are all these crimes on the books um necessary?

40:40

But then there's this thing you that you're talking about,

40:43

which again I don't want to ignore. And

40:47

for as an abolitionist, is what I call, or not

40:49

what I call. It's what abolitionists have called and what I echo

40:52

restraint of the few. Yes,

40:54

there are people in society who

40:57

need to be restrained from society. They

40:59

do. I grew up with them kind of people.

41:02

I grew up in a hood. It's people You're

41:06

glad they somewhere else. I've

41:10

seen people kill

41:12

people. I've seen people do extraordinary

41:14

harm to people, and it's not because

41:16

they're poor. Sometimes it is, but sometimes

41:18

it's not. It's people who have means,

41:21

who have resources. There's sometimes people just do bad

41:23

ship. And it

41:26

is not my contention that we put them in the corners.

41:28

That my contention that we give a slap on the wrist. But

41:31

the question is is there a way to

41:33

have restraint of the few in

41:36

a way that actually makes those people whole

41:38

again and makes the people they

41:41

harmed whole again outside

41:43

the logic of the prison. And you might say,

41:46

well, why, Well, because the prison

41:48

doesn't work. The prison doesn't

41:50

actually rehabilitate. The prison actually

41:52

produces more crime. The prison actually

41:54

makes it is criminal genic. It actually makes people worse

41:56

than when they you go to prison for one

41:58

thing, you learn how to do more crime you in there. The

42:01

prison is unsafe, the

42:03

printed, the prison creates more untreated

42:05

trauma. So for me, it's I'm not

42:07

I'm not against developing a system of

42:09

restraint of the few for the purpose of restorative

42:12

justice. But the prison isn't

42:14

the only model. But even if you say, all right, Mark,

42:16

that's a distinction without a difference. You still,

42:18

whatever you call it, you're putting people away for some time.

42:20

Let's tall you that's true. I don't agree, but let's say that's

42:23

true. That's still would reduce

42:25

the prison population from two point three million

42:27

to maybe a few hundred thousand, which

42:29

for me, would be the ultimate

42:32

way to undo the violence of the crime

42:34

bill, the violence of the prison litigation,

42:36

re format, the violence of the war on drugs.

42:39

That's that's and I know that's a long answer, but that that would be my

42:41

knowledge. Yeah, So it was so important

42:43

to hear you out in your

42:46

concept and your analysis failing.

42:48

And I wanted to make sure that I didn't interrupt. But let

42:51

me say, and I know that you're a very smart

42:53

guy, but my opinion of

42:55

this and this has not been you just pushing it. There's been

42:57

a lot of people pushing the same concept on a

43:00

national level. I'll tell you, I think it's an

43:02

intellectually bankrupt concept.

43:05

And i'll tell you why. So you talked

43:07

about coming from this South side of Chicago, talk about

43:09

my best selling book, Taken for Granted. My

43:12

mom was one of those quote unquote crackheads

43:14

that you you just referenced. I recognize

43:17

that she isn't a bad person and wasn't

43:19

a bad person. Then, However, there

43:21

are people who are quote unquote crackheads,

43:23

didn't do criminal behavior, and they abuse

43:26

their family, They rob people, they

43:28

steal from people, and they may murder

43:30

someone just to get a hold of that drug to

43:32

get in their pocket. Those people deserve

43:35

jail time. When you think about the fact

43:37

that I'm telling you, if you're gonna murder

43:39

somebody that deserves jail

43:41

time, if someone shoots you, so

43:44

one murders you, your family is gonna

43:46

want to get justice. Just like with

43:48

George Floyd, his

43:51

family wanted justice, America wanted justice.

43:53

Let me ask you just a client, Frank, because because my

43:56

premise was if we invest in the world,

43:58

I agree. But most people who most

44:01

people who do who are doing crime as

44:03

crack addicts are doing so as crimes

44:06

of addiction. You'd agree with that, right, Like you said, they steal,

44:08

they robbed, they do the stuff. I

44:10

mean people, it's like steeling your VCR in

44:12

the nineties. It's not because they just like to steal VCRs

44:15

and they tell them to get right. Yeah, they were selling

44:17

still in all, Still, in all, there's someone being disenfranchised

44:20

by that action. So that that's that's what I'm saying. Let

44:22

me finish this point really there.

44:24

So the same philosophy that you're you're pushing

44:27

is being pushed on the national stage. So I

44:29

won't even say as your philosophy. I'll say that is

44:31

being pushed on the national stage. There's people like

44:33

Kim Fox, she's the Cook County prosecutor

44:36

in Chicago right now, who's moving

44:38

about life with this very same philosophy.

44:41

She has since she's been in office, over

44:43

the course of three years, has dropped

44:46

all charges. And I'm talking about felony counts,

44:50

real legitimate felony accounts, which are up to

44:52

murder, all charges for twenty nine

44:54

point nine of

44:56

defendants. That's about twenty five

44:59

thousand people. This

45:01

is not made Chicago more safe. My

45:04

little brother in a car Memorial Day weekend,

45:06

seen in the car with two of his friends. Uh

45:09

yeah, two of his friends just sitting on the

45:11

street talking. That's it. And that's

45:13

all they were doing. Two men walked up, shot the car twenty

45:16

five times. His best friend died in

45:18

his arms. Should we reimagine

45:20

the punishment for the shooters because it was

45:22

two shooters at that point. Should we say like, oh, well,

45:25

maybe they don't deserve jail time, or we have

45:27

to think about this differently. No, people want justice.

45:30

My little brother wants justice. His best

45:32

friend died in his arms and he could have been

45:34

dead. I would want justice. So

45:37

there has to be a place for the bad

45:39

people to go for those who refuse, and there's

45:41

gonna be people who refuse to obey the law. There's

45:43

not gonna ever be a time where we can just say, hey, you can

45:45

be rehabilitated. Some people, simply put,

45:47

cannot be rehabilitated. They

45:50

have to face some harsh consequence

45:52

in order to turn theirselves around if

45:54

they were to choose to do so. Would you not agree

45:56

with that? I

45:58

would disagree with almost everything you said. Well, I

46:00

reject some of the premises, right, So again

46:05

you said that you're asking why why shouldn't

46:07

those people get justice? My premise, I'm not sure. I

46:09

never argue that people shouldn't get justice. What we're disagreeing

46:12

is what justice looks like, right,

46:16

he'd not go to jail. Derek Hilman shouldn't go to jail

46:18

in your in your argument? Is that right? Yeah,

46:22

that's my argument. So you're saying Derek

46:24

Chauvin should not be in jail for uh,

46:28

what he did to George Floyd. You're

46:31

I mean, if I don't want to get into a sound

46:33

bite thing, you understand that we're speaking

46:35

about in the ultimate you're

46:38

talking about right now, in this very moment, are you talking about in an abolitionist

46:40

world? You're saying,

46:43

you're arguing, generally speaking, the

46:45

jails shouldn't exist. That's

46:48

right or no? Yeah,

46:52

okay, I'm saying in this world, hold

46:55

on, hold on. You also remember me saying that we

46:57

have to also to navigate the world we're in. Then it could it

46:59

could decades or even centuries to build the world that I'm

47:01

talking about. Remember that part. So

47:03

let's just say it takes decade. Let's let's just say one

47:06

decade, because

47:08

that because that would be it becomes a disignest

47:10

conversation because what you

47:12

design is you don't want to mention it. Has it dishigonness?

47:15

Are you being intellectually dishonest and I don't

47:17

know. I'm trying to understand your

47:19

point. You don't believe in jail. What

47:22

I'm saying is it becomes misleading to the audience

47:24

because the way they walk with a headline saying makoel moont Hill says

47:27

Derek Schulman shouldn't be in jail, as opposed to saying

47:30

markol mont Hill is saying that we should we should construct

47:32

a world that would that would deal with these

47:34

issues in a different way. I also

47:37

said that people who are a threat to society should be restrained

47:40

and held out of society. I just think

47:42

the model should look different than the prison as it's currently

47:44

constructed. I also said that, And so to

47:46

take all that away and just walk away with markol Monthill

47:48

said Derek Shulman shouldn't go to jail, I think that

47:51

was a misrepresentation of what I'm saying. You

47:53

say you clarified your point because you said,

47:55

oh, yes, that's what I'm saying. So you just clarified

47:58

your point. Fine, we we we we You move

48:00

on from that, But I begin

48:02

with that. I began with that. I began by saying

48:04

that again, this could take centuries to create.

48:07

I began by and I also began. But

48:11

I also began by saying restrain of the few doesn't mean that

48:14

people just go home. It doesn't mean that we get

48:16

people slaps on the wrist, but that we reimagined how

48:18

we can do it, but that the goal is restoration

48:20

and rehabilitation rather than simply punishment.

48:23

Also, I also never suggested that people shouldn't

48:25

get justice. What I said is that justice

48:27

may look different if we have other

48:30

models outside of just the prison.

48:32

Right, I'm talking about restorative models.

48:35

I'll give you an example. Someone shot

48:37

the president, right, Ronald

48:42

Reagan gets shot. All right, there's

48:44

a fact he

48:47

wasn't putting, he wasn't sent to prison. It's

48:50

also a fact. You're not disputing any this, right,

48:52

No, no, okay. So

48:55

it was determined that he had mental illness,

48:59

and so for decades he got

49:01

treatment, he got care, he got

49:03

medicine, he got scoping

49:05

strategies, he learned how to navigate society.

49:08

And this man is now where

49:10

back in society, reintegrated.

49:13

But he didn't sit in a cage for thirty years. This

49:15

is my point. So it's it's so and

49:18

so yeah, but so yeah, we could we could

49:20

have a cheap headline of you know, he says,

49:22

you know, the person shoots the president shouldn't go to jail. We yeah,

49:24

but um, But the more nuance

49:27

and sophisticated conversation, I think is to say,

49:29

what did that set of services do for him

49:32

that still kept the public safe, that still

49:34

held him accountable, but but

49:36

allow him to re enter society better than

49:38

when he left. That's what I'm looking

49:41

for, and and and and remember I also

49:43

began by saying, we have to invest in the systems

49:47

that, um, that that create

49:49

the problems that we have. So again, if

49:52

somebody is addicted to drugs and

49:55

they're stealing because they don't have drugs, part

49:58

of why they're stealing to get drugs because they don't act us

50:00

to them. Right, Drugs are illegal, they're

50:02

they're they're poorly regulated, they're

50:05

they're unsafe for that reason, and

50:07

you have to live in the underside of society to consume a

50:09

lot of them. Right, You can't just go and do heroin like sitting

50:11

on sitting on the steps or so.

50:14

And many people are unhoused, and

50:17

and so what would what would the world look

50:19

like with safe injection facilities? What would the world

50:21

look like with with the with the decriminalization

50:23

of these drugs, What would the world look like if

50:25

we invested and create a social safety net

50:28

so that so that the people who are the poorest

50:30

among us still have resources for

50:33

a living wage at the same time

50:35

that I would say, just to use example, with your with your

50:38

your your beloved mother, I

50:40

don't want her to stay there. I'm not saying that we should

50:42

give our living wage so that she can buy drugs. I'm

50:44

saying, give her a living wage at the same time

50:47

that we're we're supplying drug

50:49

counselors and drug treatment, and we're

50:51

treating it like a medical problem rather than rather

50:53

than a criminal problem. That's all I'm saying.

50:56

So I'm not saying ignore the fact that the person

50:58

just stole your TV. I'm saying, let's

51:00

create a context where someone doesn't have to steal t vs

51:03

to deal with a medical problem and a social

51:05

problem. That's what I'm saying. So I'm

51:07

not trying to ignore what happens when they

51:09

steal the TV. I'm saying, let's try to prevent the stealing

51:11

of the TV through these other investments, But

51:14

that doesn't change the fact that somebody's going to

51:16

steal the TV. Right, everybody

51:19

isn't going to follow this the rules. There's

51:21

going to be somebody who steals the TV, either because

51:23

they need to or because they just want to. Some people are just suck

51:25

up people and they just want to steal TVs. Let's

51:28

let's let's accept that. I'm saying, though, if

51:32

General Carbon steals my TV, I

51:34

don't want you to put it in here. I want you to make

51:37

me whole again. I want I want you to restore

51:39

me to where I want right.

51:42

But potentially yes, and it could look

51:44

like buying me another TV, but it could look

51:46

like a few other things. And I'm saying that that

51:48

also has to be part of how we think about

51:50

this. And if we do, if we do those

51:53

processes, then

51:55

the Derek Chauvin's of the world, or the

51:57

Dealing Roofs of the world, Right, these

51:59

are awful people. They

52:03

can be dealt with through

52:06

mechanisms that we can create in society.

52:08

There's no way you're gonna tell me de Laruf is sane.

52:11

There's no way you're gonna tell me a child molester is sane.

52:13

There's no way you're gonna tell me a serial killer, the Boston

52:16

bomber it's sane. I'm

52:18

saying that they need mental mental mental health treatment

52:21

as much as they need to be kept out of society. We

52:23

can imagine alternatives to the prison that

52:26

that doesn't mean that you don't get justice. Okay,

52:29

we're talking to Dr Martin Lamont Hill. We'll

52:31

be back in a second. Let

52:36

me ask you about this because you

52:39

know we're we're in a place where, uh,

52:43

being woke is. I remember when woke

52:45

was a thing, it was just kind of more among

52:48

the black community. But now being woken seemingly

52:50

everybody's thing and whatever the

52:52

general the purpose of being woke

52:55

was has been usurped to something else altogether

52:58

in my view, So I want to ask you about wokeness

53:00

and social justice. I recently saw a story about

53:02

Coca Cola urging its employees to be quote

53:05

less white as a part of their company's diversity

53:07

training program. Do you support that

53:10

kind of thing in the workplace? At

53:12

what point do we get to woke? I

53:16

still don't know what woke means. I'm still very confused

53:18

at what people mean when they's here, and

53:21

I mean, that's that's not me being silly a

53:24

core or like I

53:26

feel like it's the term, like you said, that has been co opted

53:28

so much that I

53:32

don't I don't know what it means to people. UM.

53:35

For me, woke at least what Erica

53:37

used to say it, you know, stay woke and all that.

53:39

For me, it was about being socially conscious.

53:42

Woke was about being aware, it

53:45

was about it

53:48

was about being aware

53:50

of who you are is and having knowledge itself. Now

53:53

woke to me, it is about playing into some real

53:55

narrow thin liberal politics that I don't necessarily

53:57

share. UM, And so watching core

54:00

operations or or media outlets

54:02

or whatever co op that language to look

54:04

like that that they're part of the diversity,

54:06

equity and inclusion game, which is really about um

54:09

posturing and making themselves

54:12

accessible to more money, uh

54:14

and resources. For me, I have, I

54:17

have very little. I have very little trust

54:19

or I put very little credence in those in those

54:21

efforts. Yeah, so would you would

54:23

you agree that,

54:26

uh, the Coca Cola really

54:29

advocating for his employees to be less white

54:31

would be a form of racism

54:36

that advocating for their employees.

54:39

Yeah, that's what they

54:42

said. They im

54:44

sorry, I'm asking for

54:46

claring. You say the one the employable this way? Do you

54:48

mean demographically or to act less one no, no,

54:50

no, to act less white, to act less white. I

54:54

think that that's uh

54:57

a very The

55:00

language is so ambiguous that I think it can

55:03

it can potentially do harm. I can

55:05

understand the context in which that would make sense, and

55:08

I can understand the context on which that would be problematic.

55:12

I don't think it's racist, but

55:14

I think that it can. It's wildly

55:17

insensitive and deeply irresponsible. If

55:19

it's if it's unless it's given extraordinary

55:22

context. And even in that context, I would say,

55:25

is that really the best way to make that happen? So

55:27

if if you and I were a

55:29

part of a corporation, let's say

55:31

Apple or whatever,

55:34

and they can't no, no, no, Let's say we work

55:36

for Sea Pack, if you will. Let's

55:39

say we work for Sea Pack and we were in the room

55:42

with our white colleagues and they said, listen,

55:44

you and Mark need to be less black. Would

55:46

that be considered racist or would that just be uh,

55:49

deeply disturbing the premise of

55:51

the question the answers the answer your questions,

55:53

Yes, would be racist. And the reason why there's a difference

55:55

is because black and white aren't

55:57

opposite sides. Of the same coin. Surely it's

56:00

surely if if when when, when you're again,

56:02

you're from Chicago, you know all about the Black

56:05

Panthers, when people stood up and said black power. Surely

56:07

you don't think that that's the same thing is somebody sending up and saying

56:09

white power? Right? They words

56:12

have different meanings given the context and the histories that

56:14

they come out of. Black and white are opposite

56:16

sides of the same coin. One has normative

56:18

power, one has state power behind it, and

56:21

so when and so again.

56:24

I don't know the context which Coca Cola is saying it.

56:27

But if if

56:30

I asked you, if I said, Gianna, what do you love about being

56:32

black? I think that there are certain answers you would

56:34

give. Right, you can talk about all the ship you like about being black.

56:36

Right. If I if you walk to white person, what

56:38

do you love about being white? Right?

56:41

That's a very different question. Not

56:43

what do you love about being Irish or Russian or Polish

56:45

or or whatever, but what do you love about

56:47

being white? And the reason why it would

56:49

be an uncomfortable question to ask someone is

56:52

because of what whiteness means in our social

56:55

world and with the social and political meanings

56:57

attached to white nest. So it's not the

56:59

same thing. And so when you ask me, well

57:01

what if a white person did that, Well, the context

57:04

is different, you know what I mean. Similarly,

57:06

if um, you're I don't know if

57:08

you're part of blex it or not, but you

57:10

know if but

57:12

if somebody says there's a Blexit, that's

57:15

not the same thing as a wex it. If white

57:17

people said, you know, all the white people need to lead Republican the

57:20

Democratic Party, that ship would be profoundly

57:22

different than saying all the black people need to

57:24

leave why Because there's a history and a context for

57:26

why black people need to leave the party. The

57:29

Democrats have served white liberals quite well, and

57:32

white people aren't under or under attacking the Democratic

57:34

Party, right, So so a wexit would

57:37

be a very different kind of move. And so we could

57:39

look at this across across the board and say, well,

57:42

yeah, that's why we don't have white history model, that's why

57:44

we don't have w E T for a for

57:46

a TV network because these things aren't necessary

57:48

in context. So when I hear them say

57:50

so, so part of what whiteness, part

57:53

of what we've learned, and part of what we talk about

57:55

with regard to whiteness is

57:59

whiteness is is when people is

58:02

when we say we're trying to rid

58:04

ourselves of whiteness. Typically

58:06

what that means is white privilege. Typically what

58:08

that means is being at

58:10

the center of the cultural experience

58:12

at all times, being at the center of the the

58:15

intellectual experience at all times. And so

58:17

to so what I use the language be less white.

58:19

No, I would not, But I wouldn't assume that

58:21

that means the same thing as being less black. They

58:24

don't mean the same thing. Yeah, but that that that's

58:26

that's your interpretation of it as you as you

58:29

would say. They said, be actuively. But

58:32

but here's the distinction too. You talk

58:34

about how do you feel about being black? Um,

58:37

I can ask my friend Connor, for example, how

58:39

do how does it feel being an Irish American?

58:41

Or how does it feel being an attack? No,

58:44

no, no, no no, no, you didn't say that. I'm saying.

58:46

I'm saying you said about you

58:49

know, how does it feel about being black? That was your example.

58:52

I'm saying I did not say, did not say

58:54

that that? No, I said, what do you like

58:56

about it? What do you like about? Being very

58:58

specific? Okay, what do you like? It is important. I'm

59:00

not I'm not being pedantic. The distinction is important

59:03

because liking something about being white

59:05

when white is born out of a certain kind

59:07

of power and privilege. It's hard to say what you

59:09

like about being white? What what if you like to be white?

59:12

Is different what you like about as white prisons? What do you

59:14

like about being white? And see what kind of responses you get? What do

59:16

you think a white person would say about your white friends?

59:18

I have white friends. What do you think a white person said, what do you like

59:20

about being white? Not about your ethnicity, but about being

59:22

white? What do you think they say? Yeah, I've never I've never

59:24

had that discussion before, so I wouldn't I

59:26

would know. I barely like I barely

59:29

hear black folks saying what do you like about being black?

59:31

I don't really hear that. And I'm just saying, if we're talking

59:33

about equality and we want things

59:35

to be the same for everybody, if we wanted to be uh

59:39

even bored, if you will, then

59:41

one would say, if I'm gonna tell you

59:44

be less black, which we know you and I

59:46

both know that there's been corporations that I've done

59:48

this there's been supervisor just said, listen, you should

59:50

be less black. Therefore you would be more

59:53

appropriate for us, so you would be more accepted

59:56

by us. If we're saying that that's racism

59:58

and that's wrong, than being saying be less

1:00:00

white can also be viewed as

1:00:02

racist and wrong. I get what you're

1:00:04

saying. I hear, I hear what you're saying. You're

1:00:07

looking at it through the context of uh context.

1:00:11

It's a different context. It's a different it's

1:00:13

a different context. But that your context doesn't necessarily

1:00:16

mean that it's right. Just because you have a different context.

1:00:18

I can I can look at a glass that has

1:00:21

water, and then I can say that glass is half

1:00:23

full or is half empty. That's that's context,

1:00:26

that's the distinction. But either way, it's still

1:00:29

a glass would water at a particular

1:00:31

level, right, And

1:00:33

I'm saying something different. I'm saying

1:00:36

because those are objective measures. There's a certain amount

1:00:38

of water in the glass, and and it's and it's and

1:00:41

and my perspective may shape how I describe

1:00:43

it, but there's still an objective amount of water in the glass.

1:00:46

What I'm saying is that the very idea

1:00:48

of white and black aren't objective in that way

1:00:50

that they're not flat objective categories.

1:00:53

They're categories and ideas and identities that

1:00:55

emerge out of history, and they emerge

1:00:57

out of politics, and they emerge out of social

1:01:00

meaning. And so when we make social meanings

1:01:03

about things, they don't necessarily mean the same thing.

1:01:05

And so, and even an example you just

1:01:07

gave when I tell somebody, this is what

1:01:10

I said. If you would ask a bunch of black people, what do you like about

1:01:12

being black? You don't think that. I think. You go on Twitter

1:01:14

and find a hashtag what I like about being black? You

1:01:16

can find million people tell you all the ship they like about

1:01:19

being black. Right, you don't find white people in

1:01:21

general talking about things they like about being white

1:01:23

that aren't about and if they do, it's from You'll

1:01:26

you'll see some very interesting answers. And I'd

1:01:28

like you to do this and anyone else listening to this as

1:01:30

an experiment as white people, what do you like about

1:01:32

being white? Not about being Irish or any

1:01:34

other ethnicity, Italian? What have you?

1:01:37

What are you like about being white? And the problem is it creates

1:01:39

a discomfort because whiteness is often

1:01:41

defined or the things you like about

1:01:43

being white or often in opposition to what black

1:01:45

people don't have or to what other people don't

1:01:47

have, because whiteness is about a power

1:01:49

relationship, just like blackness is about a power relationship.

1:01:52

And so that's why I'm saying it's different. And

1:01:54

so when you ask, when you when if somebody says that you be less

1:01:56

black, like you said, they're saying

1:01:59

you need to hide that society has decided

1:02:02

are wrong and bad in

1:02:04

order to achieve right. Don't talk the way you talk,

1:02:06

don't move the way you move, don't dress the way you move, do

1:02:09

a dress the way you dress, don't do the things that you do

1:02:11

culturally or don't don't identify

1:02:13

in the world with the people that has

1:02:15

been despised. Yeah, you're right,

1:02:18

that would be racist when they tell you don't be

1:02:20

white, when they said don't don't act white. And again

1:02:22

I'm not saying it's okay. I'm just saying it doesn't necesarily to be

1:02:24

racist. Everything is not the same if I

1:02:26

say, um, actless white.

1:02:28

A lot of times just saying, at least in experiences

1:02:30

that I've had where this has been said, they're saying,

1:02:33

be more culturally sensitive, listen to other

1:02:35

people, decenter yourself. Can

1:02:38

you just say that I agree

1:02:41

with you. I said there are other ways to do it.

1:02:43

I'm not I'm not. What I'm saying, though, is the

1:02:45

sentiment behind beat less white is not the same

1:02:48

as a sentiment behind beatlist like they're not the same

1:02:50

thing. I agree with you that there are better

1:02:52

ways to deliver it. I agree with you that this is not

1:02:54

a helpful or healthy way to build community.

1:02:56

We're on the same page that you shouldn't do it. But

1:02:59

just because you shouldn't do it doesn't mean it's racist. Okay,

1:03:01

all right, UM, I hear your point.

1:03:04

Now, let me ask you about something because we were

1:03:06

talking about walking this right now and we're

1:03:08

seeing and to your point

1:03:10

where you were saying, hey, you shouldn't be like

1:03:12

this like that, and you're using your example

1:03:15

in your descriptor for black

1:03:17

people be less black, I would I would argue that they're

1:03:20

the same thing is occurring with white people, with a lot of white

1:03:22

people saying, hey, I hate my white skin and I hate

1:03:25

um what has happened in this country and what I

1:03:27

what I might me being white has has

1:03:29

done to this country, and that that's

1:03:31

a whole another set of issues and probably

1:03:34

self hatred because obviously

1:03:36

these are people ancestors and not them actually committing

1:03:38

the acts. But there was a guy

1:03:41

by the name of Andrew Gutman who head

1:03:43

is I believe it was his daughter in a private school

1:03:46

in New York City, and he recently

1:03:48

took her out, and he wrote a letter to to

1:03:51

UM six hundred parents about

1:03:54

what they were teaching. And in the

1:03:57

letter and some of the things he said in the letter

1:03:59

I disagree with. I want to read this part

1:04:01

UH here what he said, object

1:04:04

to the idea that blacks are unable to

1:04:06

succeed in this country without the aid from

1:04:08

government or from whites. He

1:04:11

disregards the view that blacks should be

1:04:13

forever, forever regarded as helpless victims

1:04:16

and are incapable of success, regardless of their

1:04:18

skills, talent, or hard work. And

1:04:20

he believed that's what they were teaching in

1:04:23

the class. And I think to some degree

1:04:25

a lot of people can agree with that statement in terms

1:04:27

of UH saying that, hey, you,

1:04:30

because you're black, you can't be as successful. And I grew

1:04:32

up with people saying that to me that I can

1:04:34

only go so far in life because of

1:04:36

the color of my skin. I'm talking about black folks

1:04:39

telling me that exact same thing. And these are things

1:04:41

that are passed down, theories that are passed down from

1:04:43

generation to generation. I understand that

1:04:45

their systems against us. I understand

1:04:47

the history of this country. I get all those things.

1:04:50

But for us to form our mentality around

1:04:52

we can't succeed because of the color of our skin.

1:04:55

It's not just a dangerous concept,

1:04:57

it's one that provides um

1:05:00

that we're incapable of any success

1:05:02

whatsoever. So what do you do if you believe that you can't

1:05:04

succeed doing things the right way? You you

1:05:06

get involved in criminality, You pretty much

1:05:08

story your life away. You don't believe in education

1:05:11

because hey, I'm not going to succeed regardless

1:05:13

because of the color of my skin. Are you

1:05:16

seeing that in this woke culture? Now? Are

1:05:18

you? Are you? Have? You are familiar? You're

1:05:20

not seeing that at all? Have

1:05:22

you never heard of any of this? No?

1:05:26

What I what I've heard in my experience in

1:05:28

the forty two years I've been on this planet. Um

1:05:32

is uh more black

1:05:35

people acknowledging this

1:05:37

is no internal conversations that it

1:05:42

happens. White people are engaging

1:05:44

in it as well. They're saying Hey, we need to bring

1:05:47

about qutches because there's no way you can succeed

1:05:49

because you're black. That that that does exist.

1:05:51

We see that very little. Yeah,

1:05:54

I'm just saying, you asked me about my experience. Experience.

1:05:57

I get an example. I went to Cook County Jail with Jesse Jackson.

1:06:00

Of time, since you missed Jesse Jackson, you would

1:06:02

agree that Jesse Jackson, someone who talks about systemic

1:06:04

racism, right, and and and black

1:06:06

people having a tough way to go. Jack

1:06:09

is not shy about criticizing racism

1:06:11

and calling out racism. Right. So we

1:06:14

go to the jail and he

1:06:16

says, to the incarcerated brothers, how many

1:06:18

of you are here for a non violent drug offense? Hands

1:06:21

go up? Almost everybody, right, systemic

1:06:23

stuff, He says, how

1:06:26

many of you finished high school? Almost

1:06:30

no hands go up? He said,

1:06:33

how many of you have kids? Hands

1:06:35

go up? Two kids, hands

1:06:37

go up, three kids? Whole bunch of hands up.

1:06:39

He stopped asking, So how many of you

1:06:42

are here under twenty five years old? A whole

1:06:44

bunch of hands go up? So about young black men, systemic

1:06:47

drug crimes, kids, broken

1:06:50

schools, the whole nine. But

1:06:52

he just asked questions. He says to him, how

1:06:55

many of you I want

1:06:57

to get out of this prison or his jails?

1:06:59

She is, how many you want to get out of here? They

1:07:02

raised their hands. He said, how many you'll want to leave his place?

1:07:05

He said, yeah, how many you'll want

1:07:07

to shut this prison down? Everybody

1:07:10

raised their hand. They said, what do we do? You

1:07:12

know what he said? He said, don't

1:07:15

come back no more. He said, don't come back no

1:07:17

more. Jesse

1:07:20

Jackson as a critique of society.

1:07:24

It's a critique of the drug war.

1:07:26

He is a critique of broken schools. But

1:07:29

when he met with those young men, what he said to them was, if

1:07:31

you want to shut this thing down, don't come back no more. You're

1:07:34

from Chicago. I'll give you another example, Elijah Mohammed,

1:07:36

and I don't you Mohammed. He said,

1:07:38

we have to starve the system.

1:07:40

Nobody would ever say the Nation of Islam doesn't have a critique

1:07:42

of racism. But what

1:07:44

he said was, we have to starve the

1:07:47

system by cleaning ourselves up.

1:07:50

So when you look at Marcus Garvey, when you look

1:07:53

at do Boys, when you look at book or

1:07:55

t when you look at Malcolm, when you look at King the

1:07:57

argument and our tradition, the

1:08:00

churs and I've been a part of, is

1:08:03

not to ignore that we got work

1:08:05

to do and that we need to do better, and that we need to act

1:08:07

right. But it's to balance

1:08:10

the need for act right with

1:08:13

the realities of a system in which we

1:08:17

need to act right. And so when

1:08:20

I hear people say the system is messed

1:08:22

up, there's

1:08:25

a conspiracy against us, they're

1:08:29

trying to kill us, they're trying to arrest us, they're

1:08:31

trying to push us out of school, they're trying to etcetera, etcetera,

1:08:33

etcetera. The the endgame has

1:08:35

never been to just concede to that. It's

1:08:38

to understand, as Ratcas used to say

1:08:40

back in the nature of the threat, it's

1:08:43

to understand what you're up against so

1:08:45

that you can fight and win. So

1:08:47

when I meet with young black men, I say, yes, there

1:08:50

is a conspiracy against you. They

1:08:52

want you go on, they want your erase, they want

1:08:54

you silence, then want you marginalize. But

1:08:57

I said, the next question is are you

1:08:59

going to be part of the conspiracy

1:09:02

or are you going to fight the conspiracy? And

1:09:05

that's how I think about this work, and that's what I've

1:09:07

always heard of our tradition. The system

1:09:10

is sucked up, but you gotta act right, and

1:09:12

that's the only way we can succeed. The system

1:09:15

is left up, but you gotta right. Yeah. Wow,

1:09:18

let me ask you this question because I really want

1:09:21

to ask you about this. And

1:09:23

you know it's about racism because you mentioned

1:09:26

Jesse Jackson. You said you you know he talks about

1:09:28

racism all the time. Yeah, of course, racism exists,

1:09:31

and I personally don't believe it. It

1:09:33

will never not exist. I think hate

1:09:35

will always be with us, whether it be hate

1:09:38

against Hispanics, hate against White's, hate

1:09:40

against blacks, whatever the case may be. I think

1:09:42

hate is is here to stay. I don't think that

1:09:44

that's gonna change at any point until

1:09:47

Jesus come. Maybe then you know that that are changing.

1:09:49

And I'm not sure how you feel about Jesus and one

1:09:52

on that, but you see racism continuously

1:09:56

being used in ways like

1:09:58

I saw that. It was a a transgender

1:10:01

woman who says, for

1:10:03

those who say that we shouldn't have um

1:10:06

biological men playing in women's sports,

1:10:09

that's the new form of white supremacy and racism

1:10:11

in this country. Uh. You you

1:10:14

have a home, I know you might be in your home right now,

1:10:16

you have a master bedroom. Right. People

1:10:20

are saying that master bedrooms, the phrasing

1:10:23

of that is racist. People are saying

1:10:25

that trees are racist. People are

1:10:27

saying a lot of different things and

1:10:29

a lot of a lot of cases. What I'm seeing now

1:10:31

it has nothing to do with black folks and legitimate

1:10:34

racism. White liberals have usurped

1:10:37

what true and real racism is

1:10:39

for their own agenda and their own benefit. And

1:10:42

we got policymakers like Joe Biden

1:10:44

who no longer speaks to black people in terms

1:10:46

of direct policy. He's saying minorities.

1:10:50

Um, do you think that the liberals,

1:10:53

like really far left liberals or even just liberals

1:10:55

in general right now, have usurped

1:10:58

these not even concepts, but what

1:11:00

has happened with racism, and they created their

1:11:02

own agenda to the kind of fuel

1:11:04

whatever they want to target and push

1:11:06

forward in their own life. No.

1:11:11

Um, I think

1:11:13

that if we have a look at

1:11:15

the grand swoop of history, they've always been

1:11:17

these kinds of tensions and debates. They've

1:11:20

always been these skepticisms of white liberals and

1:11:22

criticisms of white liberals, very

1:11:24

skeptical of white liberals, Yeah,

1:11:27

he should have been. Um. And

1:11:30

so I don't think this is some new movement as much

1:11:32

as I see part of the tension

1:11:34

of freedom fighting, part of the challenge

1:11:36

of of of having

1:11:38

moral and political political

1:11:41

clarity. What are we fighting for? What

1:11:44

is the endgame here? What is it supposed to look

1:11:46

like? Um? Is every fight worth

1:11:48

fighting for? Now? You and I might disagree on whether

1:11:50

these things are, these terms, these moments, these

1:11:53

movements, these controversies, these

1:11:55

stories are racist or not. I mean, that's almost

1:11:57

not even the point, right Uh.

1:12:00

Um. The question is who

1:12:02

gets determined what the thing is? And

1:12:05

I think too often we have surrendered

1:12:08

um our power

1:12:11

to define, in our power to lead our

1:12:13

own meeting freedom movement, to

1:12:15

other people, including white liberals. We've

1:12:18

allowed too many people to shape the discourse

1:12:21

or to tell us who we're

1:12:23

supposed to be and how we're supposed to be. And

1:12:25

for me, the best thing we can do at this

1:12:27

junction in history is to rest that control

1:12:30

back. And I think the most

1:12:32

beautiful thing I saw in the streets of Missouri

1:12:35

and two thousand and fourteen, or the streets

1:12:37

of Minnesota, in the streets is

1:12:41

the people taking control. The people

1:12:44

season seizing power,

1:12:46

et cetera. We're

1:12:50

calling for defunding because that's what we want, damn

1:12:53

what Joe Biden wants. Right, we're

1:12:55

gonna call for medicare

1:12:58

for all to help what Joe Biden wants.

1:13:01

And even and even though this is a particularly black issue,

1:13:04

it should be uh, the

1:13:07

Green New Deal, we're gonna call for it because that's what

1:13:10

we want, that's the people want. And we're

1:13:12

no longer going to say I pray, We're

1:13:14

no longer going to say, um,

1:13:19

not yet, we can't wait.

1:13:22

The Democrats won't win on that. We're

1:13:24

now saying, what do our people need?

1:13:27

What do the people need? What do what? What does

1:13:29

the world need? And we're making those judgments. Um,

1:13:32

And again, we may have disagreements, You and I may have disagreements,

1:13:34

but if we love black people and we love freedom

1:13:37

and we're willing to fight for it, then we can get somewhere.

1:13:40

Well, yeah, you're right,

1:13:42

we we do disagree because I don't think black folks are

1:13:44

so interested in the Green Deal with some of these

1:13:46

other things that you mentioned. But you

1:13:48

know, you know what you said, you know what I just said, the exact

1:13:50

same thing I said. I don't think that's yeah,

1:13:54

yeah, but you said they should, but I

1:13:56

don't. I don't think black folks are really for for

1:13:59

that. Think Poland supports that. But I want to finish

1:14:01

this conversation by talking about unity.

1:14:04

There's no secret that our country is very divided. We

1:14:06

often hear people, including President Biden, talk

1:14:08

about the need for national unity. Is

1:14:11

there any hope of that happening?

1:14:13

And what steps can be taken to unify

1:14:16

the American people more uh

1:14:19

than they are now. I

1:14:21

don't think you can have unity without justice, which

1:14:24

include prisons. UM.

1:14:29

I don't think prisons is the issue right now. We're

1:14:31

talking about unifying the people. I'm saying we're

1:14:33

dying in the streets. We don't have access

1:14:35

to capital. There's a huge wealthcap

1:14:39

um. Our neighborhoods are over polluted. UM.

1:14:43

We're being our streets are being militarized,

1:14:46

jobs are leaving. UM.

1:14:50

I'm saying that there's

1:14:52

too there's too much of a gap between those who have and those

1:14:54

who don't for us UM

1:14:58

to be unified. There's

1:15:01

also a big chunk of the country that's deeply racist. It's

1:15:03

deeply homophobic, it's deeply transphobic, and

1:15:10

the condition of peace the precondition

1:15:12

of peace has to be justice. So

1:15:15

if people don't feel whole

1:15:18

and whatever that looks like, then

1:15:22

no, we won't. We won't have unity. We

1:15:26

can't all right, So justice

1:15:29

in the form of ensuring

1:15:31

that police aren't unjustly killing

1:15:34

people, Justice in the form of black

1:15:37

folks not killing each other, Justice

1:15:39

in the form of jobs.

1:15:41

Coming back to the communities

1:15:44

which which existed in pre

1:15:46

COVID. Things were going fairly well for a

1:15:49

lot of people. So you're saying we need justice

1:15:51

overall in order to unify

1:15:54

the country in a real way. I'm

1:15:56

saying that, yes, but I'm gonna be clear of the bar is

1:15:58

very low right now. You know, where

1:16:01

we were pre COVID is not enough. Where

1:16:03

we were, we were there,

1:16:06

we were doing really well things. I mean, the lowest black

1:16:08

unemployment rate in the history of this country, or at

1:16:10

least since they've been recording the data. You're

1:16:13

missing my point. I'm saying that the

1:16:16

bar for for

1:16:18

the bar for justice and prosperity can't

1:16:20

just be that. I'm saying that this

1:16:24

isn't This isn't the partisan argument. I'm thinking, you know, whether

1:16:26

we're talking about the Trump days with Timbo, the Obama

1:16:28

days and saying none of it was enough. We've never been

1:16:31

close to justice. Are we closer

1:16:33

than we were fifty years ago? Of course, I'm not making the case that there's

1:16:35

no progress. What I'm saying is we still have so

1:16:37

far to go, and and and and the gaps

1:16:40

were experiencing don't hinge upon whose president

1:16:42

They hinge upon our capacity

1:16:45

to imagine the world differently and better,

1:16:48

and um also our

1:16:50

our political will to make it happen. And

1:16:54

we're so far from that. There's such a crisis

1:16:58

of leadership. But there's also christ of imagination

1:17:01

in this in this country, political

1:17:03

imagination, social imagination, cultural imagination.

1:17:05

There's so much further we could go if we

1:17:07

just dream differently and worked differently

1:17:10

and organized differently. And

1:17:12

I didn't just say, well, we can't do that because we've never done

1:17:14

it before. And that's too often

1:17:17

where we where we find ourselves. Yeah, I

1:17:19

certainly agree with you that there's a crisis of leadership.

1:17:21

We're seeing a board that uh continuously

1:17:24

in crisis. We're seeing a White House

1:17:27

that seemingly and they just got into I'll

1:17:29

give them that they've been in office for what five months

1:17:31

now, So I'll give them the fact that they just

1:17:33

got in, but they're seemingly a

1:17:35

government that's not completely working for everyone.

1:17:38

So that's that's a problem in and of itself. But before

1:17:41

I let you go, what's next for you?

1:17:43

Do you have any big projects? You know, you want to plug

1:17:45

your your TV show? You

1:17:49

know, got a book out as well. I know I'm doing a

1:17:51

lot, very excited about it, you know. I I

1:17:53

am the host of Black News Tonight, which

1:17:56

airs every single day Monday to Friday,

1:17:58

eight o'clock on Black News Channel, which

1:18:00

is in fifty two million cable home so it should be

1:18:03

on on whoever's listening is cable provider if not, it's

1:18:05

also in Roku channel, Amazon,

1:18:07

uh t vo all all the things. UM.

1:18:11

Also the host of Upfront Without Jazeera. Our

1:18:13

season just ended, but we'll be right back in the fall with

1:18:16

with weekly weekly international news and just

1:18:19

great hard hitting stories. UM. I

1:18:21

have the Coffee and Books podcast where I sit down

1:18:23

with great authors to talk through UM

1:18:26

their work, their ideas, et cetera.

1:18:28

And I'm the owner of Uncle Bobby's Coffee and Books.

1:18:30

So if you're if you're purchasing books or UH

1:18:33

interested in you know, critical community,

1:18:35

critical engaged conversations and beautiful

1:18:38

beloved community. Go to Uncle Bobby's

1:18:40

dot com uncle b O B B I E s

1:18:42

dot com and you can check out all this stuff, including

1:18:45

our apparel, our books, everything

1:18:47

well, thank you so much for your your time.

1:18:49

It was a great conversation. Thank you for joining me today

1:18:51

on that with cars. It's my pleasure, but

1:18:53

bless your brother.