0:00

Welcome to Allow with Giano Caldwell. Thank

0:02

you for joining me this week. I want to share

0:04

with you something that's extraordinarily personal

0:06

to me. This conversation, I believe

0:09

is the most impactful discussion

0:11

that I could ever have. On this podcast. We

0:14

will be discussing me and my guest, the

0:16

ugliest word in the English language.

0:19

I would argue this is the ugliest word in any

0:21

language. That is the N word. You

0:23

may have used this word yourself, You

0:26

may have friends that have used it. You

0:28

may be a Caucasian American who have used

0:30

it in rap lyrics. You just repeated the lyrics,

0:33

No big deal, right. You may be an African

0:35

American who uses this figuratively

0:38

in a form of love. You think there's nothing wrong

0:40

with it, But let's be clear, there's

0:43

something very wrong with this word, even

0:45

if you're using it and rap lyrics,

0:47

even if you're using it as a sense of love, even

0:50

if you're African American and you're a descendedtive slave,

0:52

there's no right time, no matter

0:54

who you are, to use this word. I

0:56

want you to listen to this audio, which I think

0:59

is very important. It's a conversation

1:01

between rapper Jay Z and Oprah

1:03

Winfrey, and he talks about

1:05

his rebranding of the N

1:08

words. Not being

1:10

a big fan of rap music because of

1:12

misogynist lyrics and because

1:15

of the use of the N word,

1:17

you obviously feel differently and

1:19

a little bit a little bit a

1:22

little bit and tell everybody why. What we

1:25

discussed is is more of uh

1:27

words. People give words power, and

1:30

for our generation, what we did was

1:32

we took the word and we took the power out of

1:34

that word. You know, we turned a word

1:37

that was very ugly and hurtful into

1:39

a term of endemment. So I mean, even

1:41

when someone says it's still intention behind what

1:43

you say, but um pretty

1:46

much took the power out of the word. Because

1:48

if we just start removing words from

1:50

dictionary, just make up another word the next

1:53

day, so we don't dress the problem.

1:55

The problem is racism, right,

1:57

That's really the problem.

1:59

You know, jay Z, I've

2:02

in Georgia music absolutely,

2:04

but I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

2:07

I disagree with many figures

2:09

within the black community, within

2:11

cultural communities who believe

2:14

the usage of this word is okay if

2:17

we want to be honest about it. And

2:19

for people who may not even know the history of the word.

2:21

It was the summer of sixteen nineteen when

2:24

a ship arrived in the port of Virginia carrying

2:26

around twenty Africans who were chained

2:29

up to be sold as slaves. It was

2:31

the first documented arrival of slaves

2:33

in the US, and Africans were

2:35

referred to using the Spanus and Portuguese

2:38

words for black, which was the

2:41

N word. You know, And

2:43

I have to be honest. And I'm personally

2:45

ashamed that I'm

2:47

even admitting to this, but

2:49

I have to be honest as we have this dialogue.

2:52

I've used the N word. I grew up in

2:54

a household where the use of

2:57

the N word was permitted. I grew up extremely

2:59

pouring the South Side of Chicago. I've had

3:01

experiences with friends where

3:03

we thought, hey, let's collaborate,

3:06

let's talk, let's share and love, and

3:08

we'll use the the N word to

3:10

show that we like each other, that we respect

3:13

each other. We tried to do

3:15

this rebranding thing is jay Z just mentioned.

3:18

It was flawed. It's a lie.

3:22

It's something that we should never do. And

3:24

I'll be honest with you. I had a situation

3:27

when I was a young teenager a

3:29

store in Chicago. It was a Von Dudge

3:31

store where I went in and had a conversation

3:35

with the individual who worked there. I talked

3:37

about this in my book Taking for Granted How Conservatism

3:39

Can went back to the Americans, a liberalism failed. This

3:43

individual who managed the store say

3:46

get out of here in word, and he chased

3:48

me out of the store. And it wasn't

3:50

that I was doing something wrong. I was just looking at the

3:53

merchandise. But that was the first

3:55

time that I really felt the

3:57

anger, the hate from

3:59

that word. But yet and

4:01

still I used the word why

4:05

because society said it was okay. Hip hop

4:07

culture said it was okay. But

4:10

I want to say that it is not okay.

4:12

You can't say black lives matter and still use

4:14

that word why

4:17

because the word is still filled with hate no matter

4:19

how much you branded. And I'm gonna tell you,

4:21

you're empowering racism

4:23

and races by using this word. And

4:25

I'm talking to every rapper,

4:27

every cultural influencer, politician,

4:29

business person, white American,

4:32

Asian American, Latino American, Indian

4:34

American, and yes, every

4:36

black person. If you use the N

4:38

words stop now. Yes,

4:41

I'm talking to you Cardi B. I'm talking to you jay Z

4:43

I'm talking to you, Killing Mike, I'm talking to you.

4:46

Kanye West, who i'm a big fan of. I'm

4:49

talking to you, Big Pout, I'm talking to you.

4:51

Charlemagne to God, I'm talking to you, Dave Chappelle.

4:53

I'm talking to you, Nicki Minaj. I'm talking

4:56

to you, Drake Beyonce, Colin Kaepernick,

4:58

Joe Biden, even who's

5:00

used the word in Congress. This

5:04

is never appropriate, absolutely

5:07

not. You can never

5:10

say black lives matter when you're disenfranchising

5:12

black lives by using the N word.

5:15

And that's important for everyone to walk

5:17

away with. There's never an appropriate

5:20

time to use it, so stop.

5:23

Now take

5:25

a listen to this very important conversation that I

5:28

have with the billionaire founder

5:30

of Papa John's. It's one

5:32

that you will certainly want to share with your families

5:34

and listen to throughout the week. This is Outllied

5:37

with Gianno Calledwell, John

5:39

Schneider, Welcome to Outline with Gianno

5:41

called Well, How are you doing today?

5:44

Thanks for having me, No, It is honestly

5:47

a pleasure to be able to have an open, honest dialogue

5:50

on all things considered in this In this

5:52

episode, I want to begin by asking you about

5:54

your resignation from Papa John's,

5:56

which, of course you found

5:58

it and became a billion near by way of

6:01

back in when you were the

6:03

chairman of the company, you were on a conference call receiving

6:05

public RELATIONSHI training from an outside marketing

6:07

firm called Laundry Service. While

6:10

doing a role play in exercise to prevent future

6:12

PR issues, you reportedly said

6:14

Colonel Sanders called blacks and

6:17

in word it was the full word. I believe before

6:20

I complained that Sanders never faced

6:22

public backlash, Can you go back to

6:24

that day, what exactly happened and what were you thinking

6:26

at the time. Well, the comment

6:29

was made and taken out of the media context

6:32

and and and contrast

6:35

the you you kind

6:37

of just did it yourself. Colonel Sanders

6:40

called black people the N word. I never used

6:42

the word. Twofold one

6:44

is I never used the word. And it's

6:47

not a vocabulary, as we'll talk about a little

6:49

bit later. I don't want to end of vocabulary

6:51

with regards to me, with regards to the media.

6:54

The second thing is jabbow

6:56

is the contrast, Um,

6:59

there's there's certain nose, you

7:01

know, there's there's no there's hell

7:04

no, and there's no way you know, and there's

7:06

no and in this case,

7:08

it was, hey, people are using this word.

7:11

Don't use the word. I never used

7:13

the word. Okay, so are you saying that

7:17

inn word the N I G

7:19

G A or n I G G E R.

7:21

You never used the actual word you

7:24

said in word so in letter

7:27

W O R D that's what you said on the conference

7:30

call. Is that what you're saying? No, no, no,

7:33

I said, Colonel Sander's uses the word

7:35

quite frequently. I didn't understand

7:37

why they would pay me in the same John or

7:39

when I use the word debacle, that's

7:41

the word I really was referring to. If you read again,

7:44

you did the same thing the rest of me. He's doing you

7:46

you're taking it out of context. I said,

7:48

Colonel Sanders calls black people the N

7:50

word. I never use that word.

7:52

What I don't understand is he

7:55

uses the word. I

7:57

use the word debacle, and I get same phone

7:59

in the John Drew again, Giotto.

8:02

It was a contrast and it was

8:04

taken out of context, just like you did.

8:07

You said it twice now one call. Well,

8:09

no, no, no, no, I want to I want to understand

8:12

because I haven't heard any tape. And

8:14

apparently there's not been a tape published

8:16

to my knowledge of the actual

8:19

conversation. Therefore, I'm trying to understand

8:22

because I'm not going to use the word, just like

8:24

you're not going to use the word. If

8:27

this was, Hey, you know, colonel

8:29

Senators called black people in words, Okay,

8:32

that's one way of describing it, versus

8:34

Yeah, Colonel Senators called black people

8:37

in I, G G A. That would

8:39

be a distinction. So that's

8:41

what I'm trying to understand here. If

8:43

you actually use the word or

8:46

you said a word, that's

8:49

that's what I'm trying to ascertain in this

8:51

moment. Well, there's a transcript

8:53

out there that is the latter to your

8:55

point, and the is

8:57

you know, the word in some place

9:00

is a still problem, which is uh

9:02

runch total uh contradictory

9:04

to everything that I believe for and is

9:07

in my vocabulary. So again,

9:09

Colonel Sanders used the word, used it frequency

9:12

frequently, and I never used

9:15

the word and still don't use the word. Okay.

9:18

So in that sen As you're saying you don't use

9:20

the word in your daily life,

9:22

you use the word um

9:25

as an example providing

9:28

context to what Colonel Sanders did

9:30

and never received backlash

9:32

four. But I'm still confused

9:35

as if you as to

9:37

if you use the word to just

9:39

provide the context. So if you're saying, hey, Colonel

9:42

Sanders used the let's

9:44

use it for example, if it was the B word, Colonel

9:46

Sanders used the B word or

9:48

Colonel Sanders said bitch's there's

9:51

a difference between both of them, and they'll

9:53

probably mute that out. But there there's a

9:55

big difference between both

9:58

of those. And I'm really trying to underst saying

10:00

that. I wish I saw the transcript

10:02

beforehand, so I know, but there's been

10:04

a lot of conversation. But we'll well, we'll

10:06

we'll move on. Let me ask you this question. You

10:09

said in an interview and that it

10:11

took you twenty months to get that word

10:13

out of your vocabulary. What did you mean by

10:15

that? No, No, when I

10:17

said in the interview again you take it to me

10:19

the third time you've taken it out of contact to be

10:21

looking at what I said through the and the rest

10:24

of that comment was is it's all

10:26

false. What I was saying is the

10:28

media needs to take the vocabulary

10:31

out of anything that I would say with regards

10:33

to me. The words were misconstrued.

10:35

But again, UM, that

10:38

doesn't bother me when you guys,

10:40

because you all need clicks and you need

10:42

um, you know, you need things to provocative.

10:46

I have no problem with the media printing

10:49

if I do misconstrue something, even though it's

10:51

real clear what I met. The problem

10:53

I have with you, guys is when I do say

10:55

something that is uh,

10:57

that is truthful. Uh. Example,

11:00

again, you've done it three times. You take things out

11:02

of context where hey, Colonel Sanders

11:04

called white people the N word. I

11:06

never used the word. I'm confused why

11:09

we're confusing debacle with the N word

11:11

and having all this negative publicity. Okay,

11:15

so in other words, you never use

11:18

the N word. You use the word debacle instead.

11:21

No, I said, Colonel Sanders uses

11:24

the N word. I said, I never

11:26

used that word, and I don't use that word,

11:28

and I didn't before this instance, and I don't

11:31

that I haven't since what

11:33

I was referring to is for some reason,

11:35

we got stirred up in a situation,

11:38

uh that was divisive with the words

11:41

to raise on the word debacle,

11:44

the word. I use the word debacle in

11:46

the context of my guys.

11:48

Goodell, Roger Goodell, the commissioner in the NFL.

11:51

Let's let's get our act together here. We

11:54

have to solve this to the

11:56

owners and players satisfaction.

11:59

That's your job, and it's now

12:01

it's been a color of the boxing. I want

12:03

to pick up from there in a moment, but first

12:06

let's go to break. I'm

12:13

ask you this very direct question. Have you

12:15

ever, in any context used

12:19

the word in I G G A or

12:21

in I G G E R in any

12:23

context ever? Wese

12:26

wordever, never or absolute? I

12:29

I can't even remember even making an

12:31

off colored joke with that word.

12:33

So you know, I'd

12:35

like to say I equivably Uh

12:38

no, I think it's unequiventally no,

12:40

because the word very offending. Uh.

12:43

I was raised that way I was raised and

12:46

household where everybody was

12:49

treated with love and kindness and

12:51

mutual respect and regardless

12:54

of their gender, or their nationality,

12:57

or their color their skin, And so

13:00

that word was just off limits.

13:02

And that was the way I was raised. And

13:05

I'm thinking, becoll me kind of caught

13:07

me on the spot here my parents.

13:10

I never heard my parents or grandparents use

13:12

that word, So I just wasn't part of our vocabulary.

13:15

Okay, So to you, I

13:18

want to just make sure that I'm understanding

13:20

you. You don't believe that you've ever used

13:22

the word before. You don't recall ever using

13:24

the word before, but it's possible that you might have.

13:27

Oh, I mean in fifty nine years. I mean, there's

13:30

a lot of things possible. One thing is

13:32

for sure, the use of the word I do found

13:34

find offensive for

13:36

absolutely, and it definitely is

13:39

not part of my vocabulary, never has

13:41

been, and ever will be. Okay,

13:44

So what have you learned since

13:46

this, because I'm imagining when the

13:48

reporting and I know you said that it's inaccurate,

13:51

when the reporting came out suggesting

13:54

that you did use the word, um,

13:57

that's what was suggested be a many

14:00

media outlets. What

14:02

what happened then? Did you get friends because I know

14:04

you're you're a celebrity. Uh, you're

14:06

a billionaire. You have a lot of I'm

14:08

sure wealthy black friends

14:10

that may have contacted you. Did

14:13

anyone reach out Oprah Winfrey or

14:15

anyone say hey, you know, I just want to talk to you

14:17

about this and understand what happened. Did you

14:19

get any calls like that? I got total

14:21

support from the black community, whether

14:24

it's uh, Reverend Elliott, Reverend

14:26

Cosby Reverend Tolbert, one

14:29

of our chief executive officers,

14:32

UM was ahead of operations.

14:35

Simon Smith been with us fourteen

14:37

years, a personal friend. He

14:39

was totally supportive. Of course,

14:42

my friends that I grew up with at

14:44

Our of Color, they were supported,

14:48

my dearest form, my DearS friends next Smith

14:50

of years. No

14:54

nobody turned

14:56

on me. Nobody believed

14:59

that UM. And that's probably

15:01

the blessing from God. And all this is

15:04

the public never bought it, UM,

15:06

you know, they just didn't buy something. Then

15:08

they add up here. You know, people

15:10

are smart, I mean they really you know, they see

15:12

two things and I think they

15:15

sold this for what it was, and it was a set

15:17

up. Do you have any friends or

15:19

and I know you said your grandparents and your your parents,

15:22

you've never heard them use it. But do you have

15:24

any friends, whether they be black, white,

15:26

or in different that have used the word around you? Well,

15:28

if they did, then they weren't friends

15:31

for very long. And I got out of the room

15:33

quickly, quickly.

15:36

Now I appreciate that. I think

15:38

what what has happened in

15:41

certain situations, and I I'm

15:43

adamantly against the use of the N

15:45

word. And I'll tell you I grew up extremely

15:48

poor on the South Side of Chicago, where every

15:50

member of my family used

15:53

the word for the most part, friends

15:55

family, that was it was one thing

15:57

that we did and one thing that I'm ashamed to say

15:59

that I did frequently.

16:02

But as I've educated myself since

16:04

then, UM, when I'm around people

16:06

who use it, no matter what color they

16:08

are, black, white, Hispanic, it makes

16:11

no difference. I asked them to not

16:13

use the word, especially around me. So

16:16

since you've had these

16:18

experiences, Um, have you been

16:20

in those environments? Maybe once or

16:22

twice, But again, UM,

16:25

if that word comes out, there's

16:28

I do one of the things, Hey, don't

16:30

don't ever use that word around me. That

16:33

was before this happened. Um.

16:35

And or two is I just

16:37

believe immediately, but the word is not

16:39

gonna be tolerated with me,

16:42

my friends, or people I associated with. And

16:45

UM, that's the truth. Let's move

16:47

into this investigation that was commissioned

16:49

by your lawyers that argue

16:52

that your your use of the

16:54

slur was not racist because you also

16:56

expressed this thing for racism

16:58

on the call as, UM,

17:01

do do you understand why people

17:03

kind of took it in the direction that they did in

17:06

terms of believing that you use the

17:08

N word. Well, of course, when you have

17:11

um, Forbes, we'll take what we'll

17:13

pick on Forbes magazine for a second. Forbes

17:16

never gave me the courtesy that you just gave me.

17:18

At least you heard you heard

17:20

me out. And whether you agree with me or not, I

17:23

you know, I don't know, and we're well agreed

17:25

to disagree. Forbes just

17:27

ran with it without any doing any fact

17:29

facts checking, took it out of context,

17:32

didn't emphasize the contrast um

17:36

once they put that headline out and it was

17:38

a media frenzy and nobody nobody

17:40

checked the facts. So and

17:42

you have a board of directors that basically

17:45

wanted the company, wanted to steal

17:47

my company. So this was a perfect

17:51

um excuse

17:53

to get rid of John. So you have a board

17:55

of director as in a company that didn't

17:57

They never came out and said that I was a racist, because

18:00

you know it's not true. They never came

18:02

out and said anything of the sword. Um

18:05

that did not say, hey, that's not

18:07

what he said. You know, by by

18:09

all means that's he's not that. We

18:11

wouldn't tolerate that. We've been on the John's

18:13

board for some of them eighteen years. We

18:16

are very strong as a company in our culture

18:19

with diversity and upholding

18:21

and respecting everybody's rights

18:25

and their dignity, and try to treat

18:27

him with kindness and love. You

18:30

take that and you put on top of the Forks.

18:32

Forks puts a salacious headline

18:35

by this guy.

18:37

Uh, it's by this guy. Didn't exactly

18:40

what I was said, and taking things out of contrast,

18:43

it made it sound like something it wasn't because

18:45

what I said was actually the point I was making

18:47

is, you know, was the anti

18:49

racist. Don't do this for God. Don't

18:51

use the word because I never used the word as a leader.

18:54

So I understand exactly how the

18:57

public could understand. Uh,

18:59

And you feel the way they felt because they were misled.

19:01

The medium misled them, laundry service misled

19:04

them, and Papa John's board of directors misled them.

19:06

And I'm looking at the transcript here

19:09

and it reads quote what

19:11

bothers me is Colonel Sanders called blacks,

19:13

And it says and in this da da da da da

19:16

s I'm like, I never used

19:18

that word, and they get away with it, and

19:21

we use the word debacle and we get framed

19:23

for the same genre, so that

19:25

that is to be at least,

19:28

um, what's in the transcript there which

19:30

it doesn't spell it out to I can

19:32

only take your word for it in terms of

19:34

what you said you were on the conversation. There's no audio

19:37

of it to my knowledge that's out there

19:39

at this moment. So um, we'll

19:42

take your word for it. But let me ask you this question.

19:45

Uh, is there any any scenario

19:47

at all where it's appropriate

19:50

in your mind to use the N word. No. I

19:53

didn't believe it was appropriate years

19:55

ago, thirty

19:58

years ago, fourty years ago. And I think it's

20:00

even um more

20:03

emphasized today that

20:05

you know, you just can't use the word. I've always

20:08

thought it's it's it's just not a

20:10

healthy word for anybody. I think it's negative.

20:12

I think it's hurtful, and

20:14

um I think I think you know

20:17

that it should be UMU,

20:19

it should be out of everybody's vocabulary. As

20:21

we talked about. I wish more folks stood up

20:23

like you're standing up and just said, hey,

20:25

you know what, every community, whatever your

20:27

color skin is, we'll don't use the word now.

20:30

Since you have this major platform,

20:32

your major voice, everybody knows Papa John's

20:34

everyone knows the commercials. We've all seen

20:36

the red shirts. UM, we've enjoyed

20:39

the pizza that you created and you're the founder

20:41

of. Now that you have this platform

20:43

where people at least believe that you

20:45

you've used the word, you've apologized

20:48

for at least um the perception

20:50

of it, what is it you intend

20:52

to do to create greater clarity that

20:54

your white brothers and sisters, or

20:57

your your your your friends and your

20:59

family and whoever else, people you don't

21:01

know who may use the word gratuitously

21:04

obviously just using it.

21:06

Is there anything that you're looking to create a

21:08

platform to say, hey, no, this is wrong, so

21:10

people can be educated and not use

21:13

it in their daily, daily lives. Because what

21:15

I see on a consistent basis, especially

21:17

when it comes to rap music, rap music

21:20

has conditioned younger white

21:22

folks to use the word gratuitously

21:25

and just use it all over the place. Is

21:27

there anything that you're looking to do or you

21:29

want to do to provide some education

21:31

around the subject matter? A great

21:34

question, JOHNO, and

21:37

I think a couple of things really positive

21:39

have come out of this. One is

21:42

UM. When you have adversity,

21:45

UM, and especially when you have adversity

21:47

flipped on you by people that know that

21:49

it's a false narrative and no, it's not true

21:52

that you really care about. It

21:54

strips you down to the essentials

21:57

of your character, your dignity, and

22:00

you know, your daily life. And so this while

22:03

all's this done, is scripting me back to um

22:05

where I started in a brooin closet when you know, when

22:07

I was broke, it's always it's just take

22:10

me back to the basics, and that was the

22:12

fundamentals that my mom and my dad,

22:14

my grandfather taught

22:17

me. The thing that I want to get out of this

22:19

is I don't want this to happen

22:21

to anybody ever again. Nobody

22:24

should have to endure this kind of false narrative.

22:27

You know, if they if they say they

22:30

will will use the hypothetical, say they have a

22:32

cocaine issue, and they

22:34

ad meant they have a cocaine issue. You

22:37

know they can they can go get help. And

22:39

this situation with the

22:42

canceled culture and the media persecuting,

22:45

persecuting folks like me that

22:47

are wealthy, successful and

22:50

somewhat conservative, We're gonna get targeted.

22:53

We're gonna get targeted, and

22:55

that's that's not right. This

22:58

So if if I could canceled, cancel

23:01

culture, if we could use this as a platform,

23:03

so what happened to me doesn't happen

23:05

to anybody else in their lifetime.

23:08

That would be really um turning limits

23:11

uh and to eliminate And

23:14

you say use this as a platform, which is great, because

23:16

I really wanted to have this discussion

23:18

before this even came up

23:20

with you, um, for reasons that

23:23

I think it should be eliminated from everyone's vocabulary.

23:26

I wanted to ask, though, do you have

23:28

anything you're formalizing, uh,

23:31

anything that you're really looking to push

23:33

You're looking to educate people on just

23:35

beyond social media and maybe doing interviews.

23:37

Are you looking to formulate anything in

23:39

that regard? Yeah, I think you've

23:41

really got to look at what's the best

23:44

for humanity. That's the beautiful thing about

23:46

running Papa John is the happiest

23:48

days of my career.

23:50

There where when people got raises, that got promotions,

23:53

they were doing real well. I love to see other

23:55

people do well in life,

23:57

and I think, um, I think

23:59

to make other people's lives better is

24:02

a is really a personal mission

24:04

in my So my four

24:06

goals are I gotta really look if my soul

24:08

what's important to me. It's got

24:10

to be good for humanity. It's got to make other

24:12

people's lives better, and

24:15

it's got to be scalable. I like to do things

24:17

on a big time basis, and um,

24:19

it's got to be something that is

24:22

UM sustainable financially.

24:24

You don't want to run out of money in six months

24:26

or twelve months or eighteen months if

24:28

you're trying to do initiatives. So um

24:31

my, those four goals are something

24:34

that are very important to being the most important

24:37

is doing something that really helps UM

24:39

humanity. I feel like a Papa John's.

24:42

You know, we were bringing friends and family

24:44

together. You know, it was a celebratory

24:47

kind of situation where people celebrated with

24:49

the pizza and they got together, and that really

24:51

touched my heart. UM.

24:53

The last probably the last fourteen

24:55

months along that same lines

24:58

of thinking is we've been so involved with

25:00

UM COVID and

25:02

small businesses and just doing

25:05

what little we could do to

25:07

help them, you know, stay on life support.

25:09

So our goal that will come out

25:11

of COVID, it's gonna shift from more

25:14

of okay, what can we do for

25:16

small businesses? We'll still keep programs

25:18

alive, will still do educational things,

25:20

will still give insight, will still give advice,

25:23

UM, and hope, hope

25:26

to help the small business uh, men

25:28

and women because they're the heartbeat of the entire

25:30

country. And then we'll we'll

25:32

turn to how do we cancel council

25:35

culture. These people that run

25:37

canceled culture, Giohno, to your

25:39

point, I mean they're even I

25:41

mean they're cruel. I mean they

25:43

they do hate hateful things to other

25:46

human beings. Um. That really

25:48

is an injustice. If somebody's going

25:50

around and just stabbing people with the night,

25:52

they would be in jail because they're hurting other people

25:55

with their actions. And cancel culture

25:57

hurts people. Again, it's

25:59

it's ecopathic, it's sociopathic.

26:01

It's sick. And they set

26:04

on their computers and they make things up and they

26:06

twist and they turn and they take things out of context

26:08

and and for you know what, did the story somebody

26:11

that's a good person, And that's just wrong.

26:13

And if we can have a little influence to

26:15

make media uh.

26:17

In this case, we'll go back and pick on Forbes

26:19

again. If Forbes has just done their homework,

26:22

if they if Papa Johns would have just done

26:24

a proper investigation, they had come up with

26:26

what Louis Free came up with, and

26:29

then we could have had the dialogue that you and I aren

26:31

heaven, which is okay, he was using it

26:33

in the context of he never uses

26:35

the word, nobody's used the word. Let's

26:38

stop using the word as a society. And I

26:40

know you stand for that. Absolutely, I do stand

26:42

for that. And since you mentioned council called, I

26:44

want to ask you do you believe

26:46

a person should be canceled for using the

26:49

N word? Um depends on the context.

26:52

I mean, when somebody says, okay,

26:54

he or she used a racial

26:57

slur, you know there

27:00

he is, what's the racial slur?

27:02

Give me the exact words and BS is what's

27:05

the intent? What's the intent?

27:07

And to me, if it's a racial slur, it's

27:09

got a negative intent. When

27:12

you and I are having the conversation we're having, we

27:14

have a positive intent. We want people to stop using

27:16

the word. Just like I said, Hey, I never used

27:18

the word. What's going on here? So?

27:21

UM? You know, the cancel

27:24

culture UM is

27:26

problematic because it jumps

27:29

on a partial truth or a half truth

27:32

or mistruth and it destroys people.

27:34

Now there's some cases where

27:38

UM people actually do wrong. And

27:41

in that case, I think they need to take the hint

27:43

and let the chips lie where they lie. The

27:46

truth is the truth. As I told your own a conversation,

27:49

they quoted what I said when I missed,

27:52

misconstrued the

27:54

media using the vocabulary with regards

27:56

to me with the word my versus

27:59

my. Um, that's okay because

28:01

I said it. So let me either

28:03

correct it or explain

28:06

or tot look in the next sentence because it was just

28:08

false. But you know I said

28:10

it, so I have to explain it or apologize

28:13

for it, or correct the record. It's

28:15

the problem with the media is when uh,

28:17

they twist and they turn and it's not truthful,

28:20

like they did with with the president

28:22

President Trump in Georgia. You

28:24

know, they went all out and said, you know he said what he

28:26

said. You know, he got murdered for it.

28:28

It comes to be they had a tape and he didn't

28:30

say that. And by the way, this is a

28:32

week or so before elections. Well

28:34

that's just not right for the media to completely

28:37

fabricate something and hurt

28:39

the president and hurt the outcome of election

28:41

in Georgia. Now, and I understand that point

28:44

of view, uh, completely and

28:47

just to to to recount what you

28:49

just said right now, and you and I'm not

28:51

actually used the word in this conversation.

28:54

I've spelled out the word two different

28:56

versions of it. The one some black

28:58

folks think is except for rap

29:00

music, which I disagree, um

29:02

and others, that has been used,

29:05

uh in the form of real strong

29:07

hate. It comes by way of slavery.

29:10

Slavery Um, the first slaves

29:12

came over into the country. This is what the Portuguese

29:15

used to describe them as being black. That

29:18

those are much different distinctions there,

29:21

But in terms of a person actually

29:23

being canceled due to using

29:26

that word a person and I understand you're

29:28

saying people with nefarious intent, I get it.

29:30

I understand that. So someone who's legitimately

29:33

being racist. I had to experience years

29:35

ago when I was a teenager. I was in a store called

29:37

Von Dutch and I was looking at

29:40

some of the merchandizing and the supervisor

29:42

came and he said get out of here. In word, he

29:45

didn't want me in his store, and he really

29:47

ran me out of the store. That obviously

29:50

is a very sinister use

29:52

of the word. But I think any use of the word

29:54

is completely sinister. No matter who's

29:56

using it. So in in your

29:59

estimation year, Um, if

30:01

a person uses it, white, black,

30:04

whatever, and cancel culture

30:07

comes for them. They're on tape using the

30:09

word or whatever the case is,

30:12

do you believe that person should

30:14

be canceled? Well, again back

30:16

to the being consistent and

30:18

not being hypocritical and being

30:21

truthful. As you know, Como use

30:24

the word. Joe Biden used the word

30:26

three or four stams in Congress referring

30:28

to a black so and

30:31

they were canceled. Um, should they been

30:33

canceled? I think that's for the public

30:35

to judge. Should they said what

30:37

they said? Absolutely not. But

30:40

as you can see, there's a prejudice, there's

30:42

a bias, the hypocrisy

30:45

that I'm in a training session that

30:47

says, don't use the word because I never used

30:49

the work. That was the point, that was, that was

30:51

the intent. Joe Biden

30:54

bloods it, blakes it out, and all of a

30:56

sudden everybody forgets it, and Como bladed

30:58

to it out on national radio and

31:00

TV. I think it was a radio interview

31:03

if I get on TV and with

31:06

no repercussions. So you

31:08

see, to start contrast between

31:11

the way one person is treated and

31:13

the way the other people get treated. Now, I

31:15

want to go to Papa John's.

31:17

Here. Shaquille O'Neil is essentially the face of Papa

31:19

John's. Now, UM, do

31:22

you agree with having this

31:24

athlete promote your company? Doesn't

31:26

make sense. He's obviously this incredible

31:28

black athlete that's been around forever. I'm

31:31

not sure if he was a part of the company while you

31:33

were there, or if he came afterwards.

31:36

How do you feel about this? I think the timing

31:39

was Shaquille is excellent because of the

31:41

environment we're in. Um.

31:43

I don't get the demographics

31:45

and uh, the feedback on how

31:47

the public feels about this. Um, So

31:49

I'm really not qualified to

31:52

say I think. Um.

31:55

I think he's well known. I think he's established.

31:57

I think he does a lot of brands, and that may be a

32:00

little bit confusing. Um, but I

32:02

think the proofs in the pudding with

32:04

regards the Papa John's. Let's

32:06

look at what happens to sales when colder goes

32:09

off, you know, when COVID shuts down or

32:11

dissipates. Let's see what happens, and then I think

32:13

that would be a fair barometer whether he's

32:15

the right or wrong. Spokesperson from Papa John's,

32:18

why she wish Shakil if she kill sits on this

32:20

board. And the Border directors

32:23

at Papa John's, they know exactly

32:26

what they what they did. They have the

32:28

transcripts, transcript they now

32:30

have the tapes. It's a plane

32:32

of his day. It's simple that the launder service,

32:35

UH set me up? And Shaquille

32:38

is going along with the farce. UM.

32:40

I know he's a big guy. I think he's seven

32:42

one, three hundred pounds.

32:45

But when you watch

32:47

somebody steal a man's company and they

32:49

do it, they use race to

32:51

do it, and you stand by that.

32:54

Um, I'm not sure that's a real man. Do

32:56

you believe he's being used as a prompt? The

32:59

word I use in the interviews

33:01

I do is I think that Papa

33:03

John's Border Directors is using Shakil

33:06

as an instrument to cover up

33:08

the dirty deeds they did. The most

33:10

unfathoable thing John know about

33:12

this whole thing is that Papa

33:15

John's Border directors and executive use

33:18

the black man, used the black woman,

33:21

use the race, use race

33:24

to steal the company. That's unfathoble

33:26

out away with it. Is it right to

33:28

say that they're using a form of racism

33:30

and propping up someone uh

33:32

to steal your company. That would be my point

33:34

of view. That's in fact

33:37

really interesting. Let's continue from there

33:39

in a moment after a quick break. Now,

33:44

let me ask you this question, because you've accused Laundry

33:46

Service the marketing agency on the call

33:48

of conspiring against you. In

33:50

fact, you filed the federal lawsuit against the

33:52

firm a legend they begin discussing how to

33:55

ruin your public image immediately after

33:57

the call. Can you tell us more about what

33:59

you're accused using laundry services of? And

34:02

do you blame Papa John's at all for

34:04

what happened? And I think you just really did well,

34:07

Yeah, we'll get to Papa John's. We

34:10

see there's there's two tapes. There's

34:12

the tape that the magistrate

34:14

in Delaware saw the courts hal Um

34:17

in Delaware under deb the wall.

34:20

He's the one who presided over this. He

34:22

saw one tape that has

34:25

the training session. By the way, we

34:27

had a training session for forty five minutes,

34:29

you know, and they didn't make

34:32

one suggestion or one comment

34:34

on anything I said. Other words, it's training

34:36

session with no feedback. So it's really not a training

34:39

session. It's a bait session. It's

34:41

you know, how can we bait him in the same something and

34:43

if he does say so something sort of wrong,

34:45

we'll do what they did is we'll just

34:47

give half truth or part of the the a lot

34:49

of the folders and make it sound like you said something

34:51

he didn't say. The thing that the problem

34:54

for Laudery Service now is there's five

34:56

or six minutes after the call, the training

34:59

call, and by away, all celebrities,

35:01

all everybody that goes on news, as you all

35:03

know, has trained. You

35:05

know, the public doesn't realize that.

35:08

Um. Maybe you just think you just show up and you do an interview.

35:10

You have to you have to know what you're going to talk about.

35:12

You have to, you know, especially when you're dealing with something

35:15

as sensitive right now in our

35:17

environment and our society. With

35:19

grace and so here we have a so

35:21

called training session was actually supposed

35:24

to be a brand session. They switched the last minute,

35:26

trying to trip me up in order to

35:28

get me to say something they that I would

35:30

say so they could tape it and hurt me with

35:32

it with no coaching. Um.

35:35

The last six minutes of the tape

35:38

which is the second tape which the

35:40

magistrate, uh for Chard is

35:42

not seeing that tape. It's clear

35:44

we hope John gets sent out

35:47

to f and pasture. We'll

35:49

make sure he didn't have a job or work

35:51

by Sunday. Um,

35:53

let's set him up with a we

35:56

have a gentleman ideal rebel

35:58

I think that's the name that uh

36:01

we got him on the sidelines, will take this viral

36:03

will will will hurt this guy.

36:06

So the ill intent um

36:09

and what they expressed on the tape frankly

36:12

shocking and it's chilling.

36:14

Here's how bizarre this is. We hired an

36:16

agency. We paid them eight million dollars this year.

36:18

That year they're paid to enhance

36:21

the reputation, to make me actually

36:23

look in the true light I am. When

36:26

behind the scenes they're taping the

36:28

conversation, they're setting it up, they're surprised.

36:31

They're trying to provoke me, and

36:33

all along they had ill intent. They

36:36

did a complete one what they

36:38

were hired to do to help me and

36:40

actually did everything they could to hurt me. Now,

36:44

with regards of Papa John's, the question before the house

36:46

is was Papa John's actively complicit

36:49

in the set up or were they passively

36:51

complicit? I don't have the answer

36:53

to that right now. The

36:56

way their behavior is, um,

36:59

I think they were part of this, At least a couple

37:01

of the directors were part of this. And

37:04

if that's the case, in other words, if the board

37:06

of directors intentionally set the spokesperson,

37:09

the founder, and the chairman of the board

37:11

up on a false narrative with

37:13

regards the race, it never explained

37:16

that in the bolds that to Wall Street. I

37:18

think they have personal culpability. So

37:21

yes, I think, um, I think Papa John's

37:23

is extremely vulnerable here and I think they're guilty.

37:26

Do you ever plan on getting your

37:28

company back? Is there is there a way forward

37:31

for that? Well, we talked about a higher power,

37:33

and you know, things always happen for

37:35

a reason, and the universe is

37:37

alive and everything you know, things always

37:39

you know are perfect. And so I

37:42

mean, if I was going to take a break for Papa John's,

37:44

what a nice time to take a break this last two

37:46

years. I mean with COVID, I mean, you're

37:48

in the restaurant business and you're dealing with something

37:51

as contagious and inspectuous as COVID

37:54

nineteen, and you're trying to run a restaurant

37:56

company and you're trying to get the people to work,

37:58

and you're trying to get that you know people, the peeps

38:00

out the door made right. So um,

38:03

we'll see. I'm gonna leave it

38:05

as an option after COVID

38:07

dissipates, we'll find out how Papa John's

38:09

does, see if they can stand alone two

38:11

feet. But frankly, I've

38:14

really enjoyed the last few years.

38:16

I was really running Papa John's for thirty

38:19

four off and on for thirty

38:21

four years. You're on a hamster wheel. As you know, it's

38:23

brutal um and it takes you

38:26

away from things that are really important, you know, like

38:28

you know, taking good care of yourself and taking good care

38:30

of your kids and in my case, grand kids.

38:33

Getting to spend more time with quality

38:35

friends, quality family, and you

38:38

know, doing little things like we talked about helping

38:40

the entrepreneurs with COVID relief

38:42

and doing videos on hey, you know, how do you

38:44

get through this as an entrepreneurs. So I

38:47

think it's been a great two yurietus

38:49

and I'll keep my all my options open moving

38:52

forward, and that includes Papa John's.

38:54

Before I let you go, if you wouldn't mind.

38:56

What are two or three most important

38:59

bits of advice you'd be willing to give

39:01

you? Entrepreneurs are going to start their own companies.

39:03

Don't give up. Don't ever give up

39:06

until somebody tells you it's a dumb idea,

39:09

and then

39:11

know you're onto something. When tell people

39:13

tell you you can't do it, Um,

39:16

you know you're onto something. UM.

39:19

Unsuccessful entrepreneur, here's

39:21

no Forarner Times, And he says, okay,

39:23

the answer is no. A guy

39:25

like you and I there's a successful entrepreneurs

39:27

We here no for Warner Times and we know the answers

39:29

yes. So don't give up at last,

39:31

and at least keep the attitude positive.

39:34

I mean, we're in a very tough time, our

39:37

countries at a very tough time. UM,

39:39

and attitudes, our

39:42

emotions and emotions are infectious.

39:44

They're contagious. And wake

39:46

up every day, smile, thank God for another

39:49

day. Go out there and be honest, do

39:51

your best, and things will come out the

39:53

other side in a great place. Well, John, I want

39:55

to thank you so much for spending this time.

39:57

I hope that the folks who

40:00

listening to this we'll get something out of

40:02

it and I'm hoping we can really and truly move

40:04

this country forward. And I appreciate the time

40:06

that you've allotted for us

40:08

here and out Loud with Giano Caldwell, and I want

40:10

to wish you well and everything that you're doing,

40:14

especially as you move forward

40:16

with your lawsuits and and

40:18

and and giving people the context

40:20

in which you've had the conversation

40:23

over that conference call. So I appreciate the time

40:25

you spent with us today. Thank you so so much, and

40:28

your audience all the best, God blessed. Thanks

40:34

to John Schnader for an intriguing

40:36

interview. If you enjoying the show, please

40:38

leave us a review and read us with five stars on Apple

40:40

Podcast. If you have any questions for

40:42

me, please email me at out Loud at Ginger

40:45

Street, sixt dot com and I'll try to answer

40:47

them in our future episodes, and please

40:49

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40:52

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40:54

You can also follow me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and

40:56

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40:59

And if you're interest sitting learning more about my story,

41:02

please pick up a copy of my best selling book titled

41:04

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41:06

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41:09

Special thanks to our producer John Cassio,

41:11

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41:14

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41:16

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