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0:29

Hi everybody, I'm John Donvan and this is Open

0:31

to Debate. You know, we started planning for today's

0:34

episode some

0:36

time ago, but a recent development is giving our topic question

0:38

some sudden new relevance. You

0:41

may have heard that the Supreme Court of Alabama has

0:43

ruled for the first time that frozen embryos

0:46

are to be considered children. And

0:49

that destruction of such embryos may

0:51

be a sign of a future war. So, we're gonna talk

0:53

about that today. So, this is

0:56

a developing situation. But in the meantime, what's

0:58

interesting is that the Supreme Court of Alabama

1:02

has ruled that frozen embryos are to be considered children. And

1:04

that destruction of such embryos may

1:06

therefore be a crime, wrongful death of a minor. This

1:10

has already raised a huge cloud of uncertainty around

1:13

the continuing practice of IVF, in

1:15

vitro fertilization, the only way that a lot of people

1:18

are able to have children through a process that does rely

1:20

on creating embryos. But

1:23

in the meantime, what's interesting to us

1:26

is the court majority's explanation for doing

1:28

this. It is significantly based

1:30

on religious belief. To quote

1:32

the Chief Justice, Tom Parker, embryos

1:35

cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring

1:37

the wrath of a holy God, who

1:39

views the destruction of his image as an

1:41

affront to himself. As a nation,

1:44

we will no doubt be dividing on the morality

1:46

and the appropriateness of such reasoning. There

1:48

will be those who want faith to

1:50

inform policy and those who don't, a

1:52

divide that often reflects attitudes on religion

1:55

in general. Not always, but

1:57

often. And that is the part that we are looking

1:59

at today, the impact. of religion

2:01

and religious faith on the world,

2:03

faith and practice, its impact on

2:05

the individual, on society, on the

2:07

events of human history. Here's

2:09

what we're asking in this debate, is

2:11

religion the force for good? So

2:15

let's meet our debaters, answering yes to

2:17

that question, Shadi Hamid, columnist and editorial

2:19

board member at the Washington Post, he

2:21

is also at Fuller Seminary. Welcome Shadi

2:23

to Open to Debate. Hi John, thanks

2:25

for having me. And answering

2:27

no to that question, we have Annie Laurie

2:29

Gayler, who is co-founder of the Freedom

2:31

from Religion Foundation. Welcome Annie Laurie. Thank you.

2:33

Before we get started, I just wanted to

2:35

ask each of you a little bit of

2:37

background question in terms of what brings you

2:40

to this very argument. I'll start with you

2:42

Shadi. I know that you recently wrote

2:44

an op-ed in which you pondered how

2:46

you might have become a very different

2:49

person if you hadn't grown up with

2:51

religion in your household. So I'm wondering

2:53

how does religion play to you being

2:55

here today in this program? Great question.

2:58

Well, in that Washington Post op-ed, I

3:01

was actually lamenting the

3:03

fact that I wasn't more religious. So

3:06

I grew up in a religious household, but then

3:08

I let's say I

3:10

became more influenced by the

3:12

secular world around me living

3:14

in elite liberal leaning cities,

3:17

where secularism was just the way

3:19

things were. And I

3:22

look back as I get older, and

3:24

I wonder if having

3:26

a stronger rooting in religion might have

3:28

been helpful, and it certainly would have

3:30

changed my life, I think in interesting

3:34

ways. But this is also

3:36

the set of topics that I work on.

3:38

So there's a personal and a professional element.

3:40

I study the role of religion in

3:43

public life, but I also think about my

3:46

own state of religiosity and how that's

3:48

changed over the years. Thanks for that

3:50

insight, Shadi, into who you are and

3:52

how you think. And Ilari, I wanna

3:54

also ask you about, in a sense,

3:56

your past life and how you got here today,

3:58

this whole debate and your... being in it

4:00

really is something of a family affair for

4:02

you, isn't it? That's right. My

4:04

mother and I created the Freedom from Religion

4:07

Foundation because we've been so

4:09

concerned about the bad influence of

4:11

religion and government. But

4:14

she taught me to base actions

4:16

and morality on the yardsticks

4:19

of reason and kindness. And

4:21

we don't need a big spook in the sky to

4:24

tell us how to behave. We need to figure it

4:26

out for ourselves. And religion gets

4:28

in the way. So you worked with your

4:30

mom on this. You were able to get along well

4:32

enough to do that. Yes, we

4:34

did get along. All right, terrific. Well, let's

4:36

get to our opening statements. Each of you

4:39

will get a few minutes to explain why you're answering

4:41

yes or no to the question is religion a force

4:43

for good? Shouda, you're up first. Your answer to that

4:45

question is yes. Please

4:47

tell us why. Great. So

4:49

I want everyone to suspend their biases for

4:52

the next few minutes, the next hour. You

4:54

might think religion is uncool or even

4:57

silly, but try not to worry

4:59

about that because for the purposes of

5:01

the question, we're only asking whether religion

5:03

is a force for good, not

5:06

whether it's true or rational. And

5:09

yes, emphatically, it has been a force

5:11

for good. Let's start

5:13

with individual well-being. A

5:15

2019 Pew study found that

5:17

in 21 out of 26 countries,

5:21

the religiously active were happier

5:24

than the religiously unaffiliated. This

5:26

is good. In the end, I think

5:28

most of us want more people to be happy

5:30

more of the time. Happiness

5:33

indicates higher levels of fulfillment,

5:36

meaning and belonging. People

5:38

who are content are also less likely

5:41

to commit crime or acts of terrorism.

5:44

Well, why might religious people be

5:46

happier? Take your pick of

5:48

reasons. Religious people are

5:50

more likely to get married and have

5:52

children, and being married

5:55

and having children is a strong

5:57

predictor of overall well-being. But

5:59

the point is broader than that. We

6:01

are social animals and it is

6:04

absolutely vital for us to be

6:06

connected to family, friends, and community.

6:09

Religion facilitates that, but data only

6:11

takes us so far when it

6:13

comes to life satisfaction. So

6:16

let's think more intuitively about this. Even

6:19

if God isn't real, he's real to

6:21

the people who believe in him, and

6:24

that offers them comfort and resilience

6:26

in times of crisis. Humans

6:28

are meeting makers, and one of the great

6:31

challenges we face is how to

6:33

make sense of tragedy. Religion

6:35

helps us do precisely that. Well,

6:38

you might say happiness is overrated. You don't

6:40

care about that all that much. So

6:42

now let's turn to religion as a

6:45

social phenomenon. The

6:47

book American Grace by Robert Putnam and

6:49

David Campbell is one of the more

6:51

exhaustive studies of religion in America. They

6:54

go through 15 of what they call

6:56

good deeds, and they find that frequent

6:59

churchgoers are more likely to give

7:01

to charity, volunteer, donate

7:04

blood, spend time with

7:06

someone who is a bit down. They're

7:08

even more likely to allow a stranger to cut

7:10

in front of them at the grocery store, which

7:12

is amazing when you think about it. I think

7:14

a lot of us draw the line there. But

7:17

here's the kicker. Putnam and Campbell

7:19

write, quote, not a single one

7:21

of these 15 good deeds

7:24

is more common among

7:26

secular Americans than religious

7:28

Americans, unquote, not

7:30

a single one. Of course,

7:33

correlation isn't causation. So the author

7:35

is controlled for other variables, such

7:37

as education, region, marital status, and

7:39

even home ownership, and they came

7:42

to the same result. What's

7:44

going on here? Again, it's intuitive.

7:47

Being part of a religious

7:49

community helps you develop habits

7:51

of participation and cooperation. You

7:53

learn to be part of

7:55

a collective of prioritizing

7:57

something larger than yourself. I'll

8:01

end with a final note. For. America

8:03

and Americans. The argument for religion

8:05

is even stronger than I have

8:07

suggested. It's right there in the

8:10

Declaration of Independence. We hold these

8:12

truths to be self evident that

8:14

all men are created equal, that

8:16

they are endowed by their creator

8:18

with certain unalienable rights we have

8:21

inherent worse each of us. Those

8:23

are not rights conferred by other

8:25

human beings because when humans give

8:27

they can take away. We have

8:29

these rights because they come from

8:32

a transcendent. Source: These rights are inherent

8:34

to us as human beings. So let

8:36

me state that more sharply: So much

8:38

of what we hold dear in our

8:40

country, so much of what we'd love

8:42

with simply not be possible without religion

8:44

because religion is a force for good.

8:46

Thank you very much. Shoddy and know

8:48

anymore you disagree with much of this.

8:50

about all of it is because you're

8:52

answering know to the question is religion

8:54

a force for good and it's now

8:57

your turn to make your case. And

8:59

a happy their generation see

9:01

thinker on my mother's side.

9:03

Nfc think there is who

9:05

examines religion and the point

9:07

is either freezing Nazis tradition

9:09

or authority and that's laudable.

9:11

I'm grateful that my parents

9:13

allow me to decide for

9:15

myself about religion until I

9:17

was old enough to grapple

9:19

with theological abstractions like how

9:22

in Sin and been told

9:24

that someone was horribly tortured

9:26

and killed two thousand years

9:28

ago because. Of my sin.

9:31

Thomas. Paine wrote that any system

9:33

of religion this has anything in

9:36

it that would suck the mind

9:38

of a child is not a

9:40

to system. Religion is a far

9:42

greater force for harm than good

9:45

and this is to in ethics

9:47

in his t totally and in

9:49

our current Science and religion in

9:52

government is never a force for

9:54

good. Assist us. Talk about ethics.

9:56

Many religious people are good. Bertrand

9:59

Russell. said that kindly people believe

10:01

in a kindly god and they would

10:03

be kindly in any case, but

10:06

cruel people believe in a cruel

10:08

god and use that belief to

10:10

excuse their cruelty. The

10:12

physicist Steven Weinberg took that one step

10:14

further. He said good people will

10:16

do good things, bad people will

10:18

do bad things, but for good people

10:20

to do bad things, that

10:23

takes religion. Many

10:25

religious people will insist that

10:27

you cannot be good without God, but

10:30

if I don't accept and pay

10:32

back their delusions or claims, then

10:35

I deserve to be tortured forever in a

10:37

pit created by their loving God. Christianity,

10:40

Islam, and Judaism predicate

10:42

their morality on being faithful and

10:45

obedient to a supernatural

10:47

law-giver, but true

10:50

morality isn't obedience or

10:52

having to be bribed or threatened to be

10:54

good. It is basing your

10:56

actions on your consequences. Humans

10:59

should base actions not on arbitrary

11:01

authority, but on the humanistic

11:03

principle of avoidance of harm.

11:06

And holy books are behavioral grab bags.

11:10

God is love, but you should

11:12

kill unbelievers and stone homosexuals. Two

11:15

hundred Bible verses treat women as

11:17

inferior. The Bible

11:19

contains violent, sexist, racist models

11:22

of behavior. Zealots

11:24

in America are banning abortion

11:26

based on faith, not fact,

11:28

and now fertility treatments

11:30

are endangered because of God's

11:32

so-called way. In Islamist

11:34

nations like Afghanistan and Iran,

11:36

women are brutally put them.

11:40

Historically, religion has caused schisms,

11:42

warfare, crusades, inquisitions, and witch

11:44

hunts. Religion is

11:46

innately divisive and makes differences

11:49

between people more incendiary. Look

11:52

at Israel and Gaza. Religion's

11:54

biggest mistake is making dogma

11:57

more important than people. beliefs,

12:00

God is giving them marching orders. Watch

12:03

out. And finally, there

12:05

is the intellectual harm of believing what

12:07

isn't true. If you base your life

12:09

and your priorities on something for which

12:11

there is no evidence, it's building your

12:13

house on the sand. Religion

12:16

encourages believers to spend their best

12:18

time and energy in pleasing and

12:21

unprovable God or achieving

12:23

an unprovable afterlife instead of

12:25

making this world the paradise that it could

12:27

be. Thank you, Annie, Laurie. Thank you to both

12:29

of you. So now we know where you stand

12:32

on this question and why. There's a lot there

12:34

to get into. So we're going to do that

12:36

after taking a quick break. When we come back,

12:38

we'll be getting deeper into the question, is religion

12:40

a force for good? I'm John Donvan, and this

12:43

is Open to Debate. This.

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14:00

Welcome back to Open to Debate. I'm your

14:02

moderator, John Donvan, and we're taking on this

14:04

question. Is religion a force for good? We

14:06

have heard opening statements from our two debaters,

14:09

Shadi Hamid, a Washington Post columnist and editorial

14:11

board member, and Annie Laurie Gayler,

14:13

co-founder of the Freedom from Religion Foundation. What

14:15

I think I heard in each of your

14:17

arguments, if I were to sum them up,

14:19

that Shadi, I heard you making an argument

14:22

that religion is quote unquote good for the

14:24

soul, actually good for health, good for socialization,

14:26

good for people connecting with one another, for

14:28

getting along with one another, for dealing

14:30

with things like grief and understanding the

14:32

world. Annie, I'm hearing your

14:34

argument being a little bit more at

14:37

25,000 feet looking across history, religion's

14:39

impact on movements, on historical

14:42

events, where you're making the case that

14:44

while you concede that religion can have

14:46

some good impacts, you're saying that on

14:48

the whole, its negative impacts outweigh the

14:50

good. So there's a lot to get

14:52

into here. And I just want

14:55

to start with a very specific

14:57

split that I saw between the two

15:00

of you where Annie, you used the

15:02

phrase about religion that it is innately

15:04

divisive. Shadi, you're making

15:06

the argument that religion is a

15:08

connector between people. Shadi, take that

15:11

on first in your response to

15:13

the idea that it's innately divisive.

15:15

Well, first of all, division on

15:18

its own isn't necessarily a bad thing.

15:20

Some divides are worth having. I don't

15:22

believe in unity. I think diversity and

15:24

pluralism is good. But I would say

15:26

that religion is a connector because

15:29

it helps us grow in communities

15:32

and houses of worship. It's

15:35

fundamentally about how we interact with other

15:37

people. When we're praying, when

15:40

someone is preaching, they're not preaching to

15:42

an empty room, they're preaching to people.

15:45

And I think that chroniclers

15:47

of American political life like Tocqueville,

15:50

for example, one of

15:52

the main themes of his masterwork, Democracy

15:54

in America, Is that

15:56

religion is absolutely fundamental to the

15:58

American spirit, to America. The civic

16:00

engagement. That's where we'll learn the essential

16:02

habits of how to deal with one

16:04

another and or I don't like, yeah,

16:06

let me look just like Annie Laurie.

16:08

Respond to some of that because you

16:10

made quite a few points. At

16:12

well Chris I believe in I'm

16:14

Sarah To and I believe in

16:17

April of this finance and many

16:19

com one and there is strength

16:21

and diversity but unfortunately guy believers

16:23

in our country has supplanted that.

16:25

A very good motto with in

16:27

God we. Trust. And.

16:29

Who is that? We have to A

16:31

third of the population today is non

16:34

religious in terms as a been a

16:36

unifying factor. how many times see we

16:38

see basically war's over. My God is

16:40

the right god. My God is telling

16:42

me to kill you and me. We

16:44

see this going on right now in

16:47

Israel and Gaza so I don't know

16:49

how you can ignore that. and I

16:51

think that what you're proposing is kind

16:53

is a fool's paradise. If. Religion

16:55

makes you feel better than that's. good.

16:57

Then you sit, Believe ally. And of

16:59

course I don't. I ran knocking people

17:01

out of their views and trying to

17:03

convert them from churches, but I do

17:05

think that is often eighteen people to

17:07

believe in things that are not true

17:09

that say you are not responsible for

17:11

your own consequences. I think that is

17:13

very, very dangerous for a society. So

17:15

started as a challenging point. As

17:17

you said in the beginning, this

17:19

debate is not about whether the

17:21

tenets of faith are true or

17:24

not. and this debate is not

17:26

about that. However, your opponent is

17:28

asserting that they're not. And.

17:30

Then making for the the more

17:32

even stronger statement that therefore people

17:34

are living according to a lie,

17:36

any lorries more than welcome to

17:39

think that God is a lie.

17:41

Obviously religious people themselves don't think

17:43

it's ally the think it's true

17:45

though it's unclear to me why.

17:48

Someone. Like Annie Laurie can impose.

17:51

Per. View about the lot of truth

17:53

on the rest of us reasonable

17:55

people can disagree on the matter.

17:57

I'm a believer is she said.

18:00

That thing that I'm living a lie. Okay,

18:02

but I believe that it's true. So

18:04

for me it is true. That's what

18:06

matters here and idea that it's unprovable.

18:08

So many things to not be seen

18:11

directly with our own site, and so

18:13

many things that we hold out as

18:15

being unequivocally true. like follow the science

18:17

We know the mess that got us

18:19

into our during the coven period. Where

18:22

are you suggesting that the that the

18:24

fall of the science Montreux was religion

18:26

like in it's It's and it's power

18:28

and impact. Yeah, we as human beings,

18:30

we all have a religious. Impulse in

18:33

the since we're all searching for

18:35

transcendent meaning and purpose. and so

18:37

if we're not gonna find it

18:39

in religion and we're going to

18:42

find in something else, will find

18:44

it in secular ideologies like Communism

18:46

and Fascism and God knows what

18:48

else we can find it in.

18:50

Follow The science weekend ended in

18:53

even the emphasis on rationality and

18:55

reasonableness. Who decides what is reasonable

18:57

are rational side dear that there

18:59

is a provable reality that is

19:02

evident. All human beings if only they

19:04

look is simply not accurate is that

19:06

was the case we'd be united of.

19:08

That was the case. we'd all can

19:10

find their dream. Forgive me again for

19:12

breaking in. but once a good hit

19:14

a number of points. but any Laurie,

19:16

what I heard was that if I

19:18

am of faith and it's my truth

19:21

that's okay for me. Ah, but let

19:23

me give you a specific example of

19:25

somebody believes in the afterlife and if

19:27

it motivates of person to live with

19:29

kindness and compassion and decency, what's wrong

19:31

with that. But has then, they're

19:33

not making this well passes. In.

19:35

A Emily Dickinson cent because it is

19:38

signed eight is what makes life so

19:40

sweet that when you know this is

19:42

the only world thing we are whereas

19:45

this is the only evidence we have

19:47

for a one world then we cherish

19:49

it much more instead of been given

19:52

time this guy like the sanity gave

19:54

that black slave for example. That's of

19:56

example other harm of belief in an

19:59

afterlife. The. Fine of planes

20:01

into buildings by pilots you thought they

20:03

were gonna be rewarded in eternity is

20:05

another very clear example of the harm

20:07

of afterlife. I did want to say

20:09

that not all of us and my

20:12

opponent said all of us are looking

20:14

for a transcendent meaning. I believe it

20:16

was no, I'm not looking for transcendent

20:18

meaning because there is no meaning of

20:20

life. There's no God

20:22

given us a meaning of life and we're supposed to

20:25

go out and find it. We.

20:27

Give ourselves meaning in life. We

20:29

need to make this world our

20:31

best home and not think about

20:33

some afterlife you cannot prove. And

20:35

I do plan to say that

20:38

science makes mistakes, but science is

20:40

since correcting unlike the koran, unlike

20:42

the bible and that's a real

20:44

problem. Look. I mean. I.

20:46

Think by opponent is in the

20:48

on and view both position of

20:51

being. At Cross Purposes. With

20:53

most of the data we have, I

20:55

cited some of that in my opening.

20:57

I want to add one more. this

20:59

idea that religious people don't. Care

21:02

about this for all the don't see

21:04

it as precious as just not supported

21:06

by any evidence that I'm aware of

21:08

in the same Pew study that I

21:10

quoted earlier. Religious people are more likely

21:12

to vote. This. Was

21:14

the case, and every single one

21:16

of the twenty six countries polled

21:18

and fewer, the gaps tend to

21:20

be quite largest. To give one

21:22

example, in the U S, sixty

21:24

nine percent of the religiously active

21:27

say they always vote compared to

21:29

only forty eight percent of the

21:31

religiously unaffiliated are the same, mostly.

21:33

Younger. By the way, older people

21:35

do that, and ninety eight point eight percent

21:37

of the members of the See Them From

21:39

Religion Foundation Bloat. We have Forty thousand members,

21:42

so a. Measure. Of that find me.

21:44

I'm saying it over all the overall

21:46

numbers. this all the survey data we

21:48

have that on an average levels for

21:50

us as a country, religious people are

21:52

more likely to vote, they're more likely

21:54

to give to charity and to participate

21:57

in their communities to join our voluntary

21:59

organized patients. The list goes on. That's

22:01

why Let It is fighting. One or

22:03

two Saudis that I'd like to

22:05

cite the work of someone like

22:08

Silver Command and Ryan Kerrigan about

22:10

contrasting religious states with nonreligious states.

22:12

And in fact, the data says

22:14

the opposite that a more religious

22:17

state is either more crime, the

22:19

more poverty. That's true, as states

22:21

in the United States, similar religious

22:23

states has much more poverty, much

22:26

more crime, more babies are dying,

22:28

more obese. Are you suggesting that

22:30

religion is causing that? How.

22:32

Did I cause find. That you're saying the

22:34

opposite, that somehow religion is ah, sweetness

22:36

and light and it does any good

22:38

things I know salary. I wouldn't are

22:41

not sure I didn't Shoddy I

22:43

did not hear you make the

22:45

case that rules never does anything

22:47

bad or wrong and then that

22:49

does get me to question that

22:51

weekend comes for any lorries opening

22:53

that we know that religion has

22:55

ah energized. Hostility. And

22:57

war. We can take the example of

22:59

the Crusades we can talk about ah,

23:01

Northern Ireland We can talk about Gaza

23:04

and Israel on. There are a lot

23:06

of examples where people went to battle

23:08

under particularly in Europe under the symbol

23:10

of the cross and bad things happened

23:12

and I'd like you to take on

23:14

done a reception of religion or as

23:16

as it is it's again goes to

23:19

her argument that it's a separate or

23:21

year or versatile Israel. Palestine is not

23:23

primarily about religion, that's about land and

23:25

territory in to. Completing nationalist.

23:29

Causes. But

23:31

putting that aside, That

23:34

the argument that religion

23:36

is particularly violent. Is.

23:39

Again, not supported by the evidence. In

23:41

fact, I would suggest the

23:44

opposite. The most settlers century in

23:46

human history was the twentieth century.

23:48

That's when we see a profound

23:50

secular Ization spreading throughout the world.

23:52

This was also the most violent.

23:54

Century. In. Human history

23:57

by far by millions and millions

23:59

because we. Had three ideologies

24:01

in particular that were secular

24:03

that were anti religious that

24:06

actually seen I've known the.

24:08

Hitler. Was secular I can't let you get

24:10

away with sat here with his Ireland Hitler

24:12

was and that have an older than fertility

24:14

and the churches and Lutheran churches and he

24:16

said i'm killing Jews for Jesus says well

24:18

we know not an idiot. Most of

24:20

the story ends. Who has studied

24:23

the Third Reich and Hitler argue

24:25

now that Hitler was actually sometimes

24:27

and public statements trying to curry

24:29

favor with religious people suddenly himself

24:31

privately arm and was not will

24:34

not You certainly was not religious

24:36

and he was and there's an

24:38

ad in said he believed in

24:40

I just. I'm just about this. Just

24:42

let me say soldiers were on the

24:45

buckle up the bible belt. But meet

24:47

start with us Whether he was religious

24:49

or not he was using Village and.

24:51

Not. Square Indo what's known as early

24:53

as idea of whom are not Christian

24:55

Blimey Weight and a moderator wise I

24:57

I I didn't want to interrupt the

24:59

person with what you're both argue that

25:01

point but does Saudi can you make

25:03

cannot dismiss your point in and will

25:06

move on. He assures secular ideologies have

25:08

been by far the most destructive forces

25:10

and the other ones are communism and

25:12

fascism. And we're talking about tens of

25:14

millions of people killed so this either

25:16

me or less a hassle it any

25:18

longer. Let let him just get through

25:21

this. And then you get your

25:23

shot. Okay and historically if you

25:25

would say Catholicism or my own

25:27

religion, Islam very is a proud

25:29

tradition of just war of of

25:31

imparting clear limits on what you

25:33

can do in the battlefield, not

25:36

harming women, children, innocence, noncombatants that

25:38

is part of the great religious

25:40

traditions in a way that secular

25:42

ideologies have never had. When it's

25:44

secular ideologies fighting, all bets are

25:46

off and I think we've seen

25:49

that time and time again throughout.

25:51

The Twentieth Century. Okay, and you are. It's

25:53

here's your shot. Go forth. By

25:55

I do wanna say of Chris Sashes and

25:57

was brought in by a Catholic Mussolini. And

26:00

so we can't whitewash history when we

26:03

look at for example, the Team in

26:05

of Women Under Islam. Whether

26:08

you have just wars or not I don't

26:10

think it was very just that the young

26:12

woman who would not wearing a headscarf with

26:14

killed because some of her hair was showing

26:16

a movie look at the atrocities. You're speaking

26:18

about in Iran to Skyn. Iran. I'm talking

26:20

about how Afghan women an

26:23

Iranian women are treated in

26:25

Islamist nations, meaning nations that

26:27

do not have separation between

26:29

religion and government. And it

26:31

it. It's when religion is

26:33

unchecked. Watch. Out. A.

26:35

Religion needs to be kept in

26:37

it's place. and when it is,

26:40

government goes behind religion in even

26:42

behind religious slogans like in God

26:44

We Trust This disenfranchises those who

26:46

are not the right religion. Of

26:48

I'm sorry Like as as one of

26:50

the minority religions in America, Islam which

26:52

is now would be blob in mind

26:55

when they say in God we trust

26:57

That does not disenfranchised me. I've never

26:59

felt that way. I do agree that

27:01

nothing should be unseen. So of course

27:03

there should be limits on what religious

27:06

leaders can do. Just like there should

27:08

be limits on what subtler leaders should

27:10

do. We should have Sex and Balances

27:12

Separation of Powers The problem with Iran

27:15

is actually more that it it's It's

27:17

an authoritarian. Regime not that it's a

27:19

theocratic one. I want to pull a

27:21

little bit on the thread of the

27:23

just came up about treatment of women

27:25

in Islam and and I have heard

27:27

it said over the years that dumb

27:30

the attitude towards women in islam com

27:32

less out of the Koran than they

27:34

do out of our tradition. Hub is

27:36

in in the communities from which Islam

27:38

through arose but nevertheless we know that

27:40

there's serious in equities but it's not

27:42

just islam. there's a thread of Saudi

27:44

throughout the to monitor his dick religions.

27:46

ah it is said. Of subordination of

27:49

women and I want to ask you

27:51

to address that him to take on

27:53

whether that's the challenge to your position

27:55

in this argument. Well when Islam came

27:57

to be in the seventh century in.

28:00

Rabia. it was actually quite.

28:02

Progress is on matters of

28:04

gender and granting women right

28:06

said they never had in

28:08

the pre Islamic period. In

28:10

the presuming period we know

28:12

that daughters would be buried.

28:14

His parents only wanted to

28:16

have boys. There was no

28:18

right to property. Women were

28:20

able to have their own

28:22

income and haves and have

28:24

their own property. With the

28:26

coming of Islam valve course

28:28

as things went along. And

28:30

in a modern period there

28:32

are serious inequities but we

28:34

have to ask ourselves and

28:36

that caused by the religion itself

28:38

or is it caused by culture?

28:41

Even in relatively secular Muslim

28:43

majority countries where Islam doesn't

28:45

play much of a public

28:47

or political role, we still

28:49

see similar inequities is it also

28:51

points a Muslim majority countries that

28:54

elected female prime minister's well before.

28:56

Ah well, the Us has never

28:59

done that sort. On, but

29:01

Bangladesh, Pakistan, and Turkey just

29:03

to name three. So this

29:05

story is much more complicated.

29:07

And luckily there are increasingly

29:10

progressive interpretations I'm including right

29:12

here in America from female

29:14

Muslim scholars challenging patriarchal readings

29:16

and adding their argument would

29:19

be that if you live

29:21

in a patriarchal society, your

29:23

readings of religion are naturally

29:25

going to be patriarchal. So

29:27

ultimately we're talking about a

29:30

complex. Mix of not just religion,

29:32

but religion with culture and with the

29:34

political political systems. The don't actually allow

29:36

free debate and discourse around how to

29:39

treat women. Okay and that I would

29:41

you need, you need to be able

29:43

to give people a chance to provide

29:46

different interpretations that are more open and

29:48

progressive. On these questions are so many

29:50

to that he anymore he is. This

29:53

study is saying that it's. Innocence.

29:56

Don't blame religion for so much that

29:58

cause cancer plays a big role as

30:01

well. So where do you take that

30:03

answer in terms of the impact on

30:05

women of religion. Or is you

30:07

have people who I villages in Utah

30:09

then side is telling me that this

30:12

is how we shouldn't do Think this

30:14

is the law, This is what we

30:16

have to do. Are they that's the

30:18

most powerful thing you can do if

30:21

you have believers. In other words, don't

30:23

have to persuade through reason on popularity.

30:25

Whatever you have got on your side

30:27

and that's the night. and that's what.

30:30

So dangerous that's it makes religion so

30:32

powerful and you can make up anything

30:34

you want about this god and. People

30:37

usually do who are in power

30:39

and a very dangerous and I'm

30:41

glad that Bangladesh was bad at

30:43

because I have a good friend

30:45

Bangladeshi Americans who cannot go back

30:47

there because she was there with

30:49

her husband and Odyssey right well

30:51

known atheist and as they were

30:53

leaving a boxer he was hacked

30:55

to death in front of her

30:57

eyes and see was almost killed.

30:59

This is what religion does. This

31:02

is not would religion does because

31:04

works you you've You've repeatedly brought

31:06

up examples that reflect such a

31:08

small, tiny minority. There's one point,

31:10

six billion Muslims in the world.

31:12

Of course, we can point to

31:14

terrorist acts like Nine Eleven and

31:16

the rise of Isis and so

31:18

forth, but if you look at

31:20

it in the broader context of

31:22

such a massive body of believers,

31:24

this is not mainstream. The idea

31:26

that people go route hacking each

31:28

other for the religious beliefs is

31:30

simply not an accurate representation. Of

31:33

what book of Real Life So.

31:36

I think that a lorry your

31:38

your position depends on cherry picking.

31:41

A small number of examples and then

31:43

generalizing that and saying this is Islam

31:45

as a whole. This is religion as

31:47

a whole And that was utterly not

31:50

require. That Islam does not offer. you can

31:52

lean on the leaders that that the Old

31:54

Testament does not cause for killing unbelievers because

31:56

they do is. And south course if you're

31:58

the leader you can. Very pick that and

32:01

say God's telling me to kill you. Of

32:03

course that's not true because there are

32:05

Two billion Christians and one point Six

32:07

billion Muslims. A Three point Six billion

32:10

people. If if our scripture was telling

32:12

us to kill unbelievers, you would see

32:14

that happening nonstop every day. When was

32:17

the last time in America you heard

32:19

about someone hacked to death a so

32:21

called unbelievers either from christians or Muslims.

32:23

This is not the way we practice

32:26

or face and the your description of

32:28

religion just i can relate to it

32:30

or don't know what religion you're. Describing.

32:35

I'm John done that. This is open to debate

32:37

when we come back. Were gonna continue this conversation

32:39

around our questions, his religion a force for good

32:41

and we're going to be joined by some other

32:43

voices Stealth go further on that question, will be

32:46

right back. This is open to debate. I'm to

32:48

and on than. I

32:54

do. Your credit card rewards Really

32:57

good riddance store Slant. Eyed charts

32:59

are pushing for a long. Way

33:02

harder. Line.

33:08

Wouldn't. And

33:11

credit. We give

33:14

you love your reward. Tell

33:16

your lawmakers. I

33:18

reward them to oppose the

33:20

Durbin. Marsal credit card. Religion.

33:32

A force for good to. Never going to

33:34

bring in some other voices, some really some

33:37

experts in writers on this topic who have

33:39

been listening into the conversation and are going

33:41

to join us now. and the first person

33:43

or like to say hello to is rare

33:45

cancer Us who is the Religion correspondent for

33:47

B B C News Global Rao Thanks so

33:49

much for joining us and pleased. Come on

33:51

and with your question for. Having me

33:53

and Annie Laurie and and today

33:55

it's been great hearing face as

33:57

the perspectives. very interesting. I can.

34:00

How gravitate towards the latter part

34:02

of your discussion around culture and

34:04

religion and few things suck out

34:06

to me. To cost is that

34:09

you could probably odds are in

34:11

one am essentially money's Can you

34:13

separate religion as a tool for

34:15

good versus a weapon for political

34:18

gain and which sources a overlaps

34:20

with? How do we separate culture

34:22

from related? I think that it

34:25

would be ideal if religious people

34:27

would simply an practice their religion

34:29

privately. And not try to

34:31

force their religion and others through the

34:34

state. and that's where we get into

34:36

trouble. We cannot get along with different

34:38

beliefs so long as the government isn't

34:41

making a decision about which religious police

34:43

is true. Just to clarify

34:45

the question here: Is his religion a

34:47

force for good? The way that I

34:49

interpret dad is were talking about. The.

34:52

Net Result: So.

34:54

I would never pretend to say that

34:56

religion. Is completely pure.

34:58

and there's never been something negative

35:00

done by religious people. Of course

35:03

not. but we're talking about the

35:05

broader sweep history. We're also not

35:07

talking about religious states, were talking

35:10

about his religion. Of

35:12

Force for Good and I you

35:14

know Di Di is that when

35:16

religious people do something bad, it's

35:18

caused by religion. I just don't

35:20

see how we can make that

35:22

case when a secular person or

35:25

an atheist does something bad or

35:27

implements and destructive policy. Do we

35:29

really say that there's secularism cause

35:31

them to do that? So it

35:33

seems that were holding religion to

35:35

a standard that we would never

35:37

hold of for other for other

35:40

persuasions and I would also. Say

35:42

that. I. Religion can't

35:44

be kept private because if

35:46

religion is something that is

35:48

important to you and it's

35:50

part of your community and

35:52

your sense of belonging, of

35:55

course, your didn't express that

35:57

in public and I should

35:59

just remind everyone that religion.

36:01

The public religion has played

36:03

a very powerful role in

36:05

anti colonial movements in places

36:07

like Sudan and Algeria, but

36:10

it's also been a cop

36:12

a force for liberation for

36:14

Black Americans. I'm in the

36:16

Civil Rights movement was led

36:18

not exclusively, but certainly some

36:20

of it's most prominent advocates

36:22

were devoted Christians who saw

36:24

their Christie Nd. as fundamentally

36:27

in forming their desire and

36:29

demand. For justice and

36:31

equality and their care for

36:33

the poor and downtrodden on

36:35

the great abolitionist movements were

36:37

driven by again a sense

36:39

of christian witness and care

36:42

for those who are destitute

36:44

or disregarded by society. I

36:46

mean, religion give so much

36:48

passion and power in the

36:50

public arena Now of course

36:52

that can lead to bad

36:54

things, but let's not forget

36:57

that the political power of

36:59

religion can. Lead to really great

37:01

movements of liberation and justice. Annie Laurie

37:03

I saw you shaking your head during

37:05

the Saudis com is just and especially

37:08

when he talked about the inspiration for

37:10

the abolitionists. A Me cause the

37:12

earliest abolitionist are almost all non

37:14

religious or they were considered here

37:16

at six among their own sex

37:18

such as Traitors and Thomas Paine

37:21

with one of the only us

37:23

to car for the abolition of

37:25

Slavery and at Christmas a D

37:27

as in the classical sense That

37:29

and sense as saying that see,

37:31

I'm I'm being unfair to religion.

37:34

I'm blaming legend for everything. If

37:36

you look today at our theory,

37:39

On United States of America. We.

37:41

Can see. What Is the problem

37:43

right now? What is a threat?

37:45

It is Christian Nationalism and that

37:48

that means a political movement, not

37:50

christianity. That a political movement same

37:52

that a certain kind of christianity

37:54

has to be enforced by our

37:56

government. and certain Christians. Are more privileged

37:59

and we are. The Take

38:01

Away the rights to abortion in twenty

38:03

one states are trying to take away

38:05

the rights of Lgbt. Rights

38:08

and on this that many states.

38:10

We just saw this death of

38:12

the sixteen year old in Oklahoma.

38:14

Very tragic because the superintendents has

38:16

been making a huge deal about

38:18

which bathroom to use me over

38:21

and over again. We see the

38:23

harm of religion in our laws

38:25

and policies and that's why religion

38:27

is not. On. His whole a

38:29

force for good. We're. Going to go on to another

38:31

question, but if it's in the meantime I I think we got

38:33

to an area. Where I was

38:36

I was prepared to ask a

38:38

question of Saudi based on something

38:40

that I read that you wrote

38:42

to. The United States was not

38:44

founded as a Christian nation. Christianity

38:47

was always intertwined with America self

38:49

definition. Without it, Americans, conservatives and

38:51

Liberals are like no longer have

38:53

a common culture upon which to

38:55

fall back. So that's have a

38:58

very very provocative in big sweeping

39:00

statement that suggests that the The

39:02

Faith tradition is keeping America afloat

39:04

and without. It. But we're going

39:06

to sink. Yep, well, exactly. And

39:09

and I'm the evidence there. We

39:11

can look at it with their

39:13

own very eyes, as America has

39:15

secularized profoundly. So for the better

39:18

part of the twentieth century, church

39:20

membership hovered around seventy to seventy

39:22

five percent, but in the last

39:24

twenty five years, it's drop below

39:27

fifty percent, a precipitous. Decline.

39:29

In a very short period

39:31

of time, it's not an

39:33

accident that during the same

39:36

period we become more ideologically

39:38

polarized, more ideologically fragmented. This

39:40

idea that if we all

39:42

become more secular, that will

39:44

all be able to be

39:46

reasonable and deliberate and to

39:48

work together. It just hasn't

39:51

happened. Secularized a son has

39:53

not led to this promised

39:55

land. When. We lose our

39:57

religious grounding. We look for it.

40:00

Other places were still going to

40:02

be searching for meaning in a

40:04

danger. there is that the other

40:06

things that we find can be

40:08

worse than religions or whether that's

40:10

White nationalism or even on my

40:12

side of the spectrum where we

40:14

might call book is Them or

40:16

Room or Social Justice warriors Ship.

40:18

And so forth. Nice are

40:20

ideologies that are uncompromising, unyielding,

40:22

and they are primarily secular.

40:24

And that's what I'm worried

40:26

about going forward in America

40:29

that if this secular as

40:31

a son trend continues, were

40:33

going to see a more

40:35

aggressive kind of politics. Not

40:37

because of religion, but and

40:39

but in spite of it.

40:41

Annie Laurie twitter up. We.

40:44

Don't have a religious test of public

40:46

office. Supposedly in our constitution we should

40:48

not says Sadie a religious test To

40:51

be a citizen they should would do

40:53

that for you. said that this is

40:55

a christian nation or that that people

40:58

are expected to have Christianity or I

41:00

nice and will fall apart and you

41:02

you earlier on applauded diversity said that

41:04

is that if a contradiction and I

41:07

certainly would not want to go back

41:09

to the nineteen sixties and Nineteen sixties

41:11

with you. We had the Women's movement.

41:14

We've had the Civil Rights movement. We had

41:16

the Gay rights movement. I never know that.

41:18

I we were a Christian nation. I

41:20

said that we had a com and

41:22

Christian culture, that there was a basic

41:25

familiarity with biblical references. There was

41:27

something there in the broader culture and

41:29

you know and it's worth noting that

41:31

and me not to go back

41:33

to the founders. Even the founders who

41:36

were in Christian some of them were

41:38

D, S and C is they

41:40

were products of a broader Christian culture

41:42

and they drew on natural Rights theories

41:45

when they were developing their own

41:47

ideas about individual. Rights As stated

41:49

in the Declaration of Independence It

41:51

stated very next as as explicitly

41:54

as a could possibly be that

41:56

these rights are endowed by our

41:58

creator. Clearly the move

42:01

towards freedom and equality and human

42:03

rights while still had a long

42:05

way to go at that time.

42:08

A. Presumably we as Americans believe in

42:10

our ideals and most of us believe

42:12

in the founding and it's promise that

42:14

just simply wouldn't have been possible if

42:16

it wasn't for the influence of religion.

42:19

Oh if it wasn't for the incidence

42:21

of religion we are so wouldn't Has

42:24

seen a manifest destiny and the genocide

42:26

of Native Americans and the slavery as

42:28

so many people in Africa where it

42:30

was justified by the book or vs

42:33

that allows. Slavery. Okay, I'd like

42:35

to welcome in Ryan Craig, who's

42:37

a professor of Sociology at the

42:39

University of Tampa, right? Thanks so

42:41

much for your patience with idea.

42:43

We have to say Ah, here's

42:45

my question. Scholars are increasingly recognizing

42:47

that American Grace, which shoddy referenced

42:49

earlier, is a deeply flawed book.

42:51

Mostly readers don't realize that the

42:54

authors putnam example groups inactive religiously

42:56

affiliated individuals with those who haven't

42:58

no religious affiliation then compared them

43:00

to the religious. More recent research

43:02

shows that accurate. Comparisons. Between

43:04

religiously act individuals and affirmatively

43:06

secular people like easiest shown

43:08

no meaningful differences and health.

43:11

Happiness, criminality, charitable giving or

43:13

voluntary among many other prosocial

43:15

measures That all leads to

43:17

my really awkward question given

43:19

this debate. Is. Possible that

43:21

religion a non religion aren't really what

43:23

make people good or bad. and the

43:25

religion is neither a force for good

43:27

or bad or stated inversely. Can people

43:29

be good with that? With or without

43:32

religion? Sure course we can be good

43:34

without religion. I mean some of my

43:36

best friends or nonreligious, some of every

43:38

that atheists. and there's some my favorite

43:40

people. So hague, you know, But

43:43

I think that we you. It.

43:45

We have to look at things

43:47

more broadly and I think it's

43:49

not so much about whether religion

43:51

make some an individual good or

43:53

bad. it's more that religion helps

43:55

individuals be part of a broader

43:57

community. And that's the

43:59

part. The force here. That.

44:01

Religion makes you part of something

44:04

meaningful and transcendent. And maybe Annie

44:06

Laurie is not looking for transcended

44:08

meaning. But I think that throughout

44:11

human history to search for transcendence

44:13

has been a recurring seem in

44:15

the human story. Were looking for

44:17

something ultimate? Were looking for something

44:20

beyond the cells or not content

44:22

to just be self referential. And

44:24

I think this is the power

44:26

of religion. You don't even really

44:29

have to believe. In.

44:31

Religion To actually take part in

44:33

religion And dance. You know. Pascal's

44:35

Wager famously said that you know

44:38

you act as if religion is

44:40

true, even if you're not sure

44:42

that it is. I'm and you

44:45

can, You can act as if

44:47

it's true by going to church

44:49

or mosque or synagogue. even if

44:52

you have your own doubts about

44:54

whether there is an after life

44:56

or whether God truly exists and

44:59

that to me. So the power.

45:01

Of religion I think is located

45:03

in this other space that is

45:05

maybe even more difficult to define

45:08

and I'll also just go back

45:10

to life satisfaction that died at

45:12

The evidence is strong. That

45:15

people who are religious have report higher

45:17

levels of life satisfaction. I think that's

45:19

good because I think happiness is good

45:21

and I would like more people to

45:23

be happy. Pascal's. Wager isn't

45:26

just I think up at there's no

45:28

harm in believing in religion has to

45:30

sub leader is the see If there

45:32

is a good. If I'm with sentence

45:35

me to eternal hell for disbelieving then

45:37

it would be better for me to

45:39

act as if there were at. That

45:42

maybe that pointed out. If there was a

45:45

god like that who is such it seemed

45:47

then why wouldn't that god perhaps decide someone

45:49

like Pascal he should be sent to have

45:51

to? not being a Muslim mean it's a

45:53

this is I'll make. Believe and you

45:56

can speculate endlessly about Make Believe In

45:58

in terms of ten, the and and.

46:01

How do you know would say the

46:03

least amount of ice hockey outside? I

46:05

may new leader for there's no proof

46:07

that serves as a different though justices to

46:09

I think it's new to me but

46:11

you didn't making. The Claim and you have to

46:13

prove that And you can't prove it. So

46:16

and when you make a claim that

46:18

there is that creator out there who's

46:20

responsible for everything, you have to prove

46:22

it. And you can't. You're making the

46:24

claim that God doesn't exist, so it seems

46:26

to me that the burden of proof would

46:28

be on you explain on our way. so

46:30

sure that God doesn't exist because you're the

46:32

one who's been arguing that I'm. Happy to

46:35

explain why at I doesn't exist, but the

46:37

burden of proof is on the. Person making

46:39

the claim. Ryan I want to thank you

46:41

very much for your question but we need

46:43

to move into are closing round and and

46:45

are closing round. Each of the debaters has

46:47

two minutes to make God they're closing statement

46:49

Saudi Ah made. You are of first without

46:51

as you are at the beginning of one

46:53

last rees of money. One less time to

46:55

tell us why you believe that religion is

46:57

a force for good. I want to may

46:59

be consumed with a couple thoughts. That

47:02

or maybe more personal. I

47:05

think one of the great things

47:07

about religion certainly Christian, the and

47:10

my own faith Islam is the

47:12

idea of delayed judgment that not

47:14

everything has to be accomplished in

47:17

the here and Now When Annie

47:19

Laurie mentioned earlier that we should

47:22

seek paradise in this world that

47:24

makes me really nervous. Life is

47:26

inevitably about suffering and tragedy and

47:29

difficulty. For. Never going to be

47:31

able to a race that from the

47:33

human experience what religion can often do

47:35

it either does it. certainly for me

47:38

and and many of the religious people

47:40

I know is it allows you to

47:42

sell because you know there's something beyond

47:45

this world that you can wait a

47:47

little bit. If. There is

47:49

an after that can actually tamped

47:51

down passions because you can leave

47:53

things for the next lights. You

47:55

don't have to accomplish them right

47:58

now. there's x C. Rape

48:00

thing in Islam and tradition were

48:02

legal scholars would end their fat

48:05

was or religious edicts with the

48:07

phrase and God only Knows That's

48:09

really powerful to me because they're

48:12

making their case. They're saying that

48:14

God wants you to do X,

48:17

y and Z but there's an

48:19

intellectual humility there because we know

48:21

that God is so much better

48:24

and bigger than we are as

48:26

mere mortals and we differ ultimate

48:28

authority to him. And when

48:30

religious people try to act as

48:32

if they are god. They're

48:35

violating fundamental principles in their

48:37

faith, which is that they

48:39

can't be. That. They are

48:41

weak and frail and they don't have

48:44

the full access to the truth. and

48:46

that's why I'm I get very nervous

48:48

around definitive statements about whether or not

48:50

God exists or doesn't exist. I think

48:53

we all need a little bit more

48:55

intellectual humility there, and somewhat surprisingly, perhaps

48:57

we can find that to a religious

49:00

sensibility. Thank you Saudi, And any longer

49:02

you get the final word in this

49:04

debate one more time. Why religion is

49:06

not a force for good. Good

49:09

system fans and Western Wisconsin Watched

49:11

that eleven year old daughter die

49:13

over six month period and didn't

49:16

seem madeline car and noom and

49:18

had developed diabetes which is eminently

49:20

cheat on that. Her parents believed

49:23

in the bible and passages such

49:25

as James sizes Team which says

49:27

the prayer a safe will heal.

49:29

The sick, We could begin

49:32

serving sentences and be hit. Pulling

49:34

out of public school, she suffered.

49:37

Horribly. For six

49:39

months drawn out dine included

49:41

nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, weight

49:43

loss, and weakness in her

49:45

last days. the Pants ironically

49:47

called America's Last Days who

49:49

prayed for Madeline on the

49:51

day before her last day

49:53

as we say at the

49:55

Freedom From Religion Foundation, nothing

49:57

sales like fair assembly phones.

50:00

That after she died asking him to

50:02

pray that the lord would raise her

50:04

up. She did not rise

50:06

up. For. Eleven year old life

50:08

was over. the parents never repented

50:10

is having religion means and Eleven

50:13

year old says his sacrifice. In

50:15

its name, That Mercer I mean.

50:17

He was killed in its name

50:20

because her lot of here's escaped

50:22

her headscarf. that women must continually

50:24

site for our rights, that gender

50:26

minorities are being raised in the

50:29

name of religion, that climate change

50:31

is being denied because religious doctrines

50:33

and dogmas are more important than

50:35

people, than it is time for

50:38

the human race to outgrow religion

50:40

and rely instead on ourselves and

50:42

devote ourselves. Not to say that

50:45

to making a better place here.

50:47

On thank you Any Laurie and that

50:49

is a rap on this debate and

50:51

I would like think everybody who took

50:53

part. I would like to thank Gray

50:55

High and Ryan for bringing their of

50:57

interesting and probing questions to the table.

50:59

But I especially want to thank Saudi

51:01

Hamid and Annie Laurie Gaylor for the

51:03

fact that you brought to this conversation

51:06

deeply held personal connections and disagreed sharply

51:08

and yet you did so with respect

51:10

for one another and civility and that's

51:12

the gold that we aim for it

51:14

open to debate. So thank you both

51:16

of you for. For taking part

51:18

in for the way that you took

51:20

part accused. Thank you John and a

51:22

few any a time they said V

51:24

and dialogue and debate any of this

51:26

episode list and a big thank you

51:28

to you audience for tuning into this

51:30

episode of Open To Debate. Thank you

51:32

for listening to Open To Debate. As

51:34

a nonprofit working to combat extreme polarization

51:36

through civil discourse, our work is made

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51:42

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51:45

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51:47

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51:49

episode was produced by Alexis Can Grazia

51:51

Bullets and of all editorial and research

51:53

by Gabriella Mayor and Andrew Foot and

51:55

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51:58

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52:00

Element and Be Open To Debate Team also

52:02

includes Gabrielle yeah nutshell is Rachel Camp Lindley

52:04

and Devon Shermer Dame and widow more mixed.

52:07

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52:09

Comment and I'm your Host John Down Then

52:11

we'll see you next time on Open To

52:13

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