0:01

You're listening. To One Decision the podcast

0:04

that looks at the choices that

0:06

shape our lives on cash madeira

0:08

journalism broadcaster at the Bbc. But

0:10

for this edition of One Decision

0:12

on Your Guest Host. And

0:14

I'm Richard Dearlove former Chief

0:16

British Intelligence, otherwise known as

0:18

M. I Six. Each week

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this program explore some of the

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biggest choices and issues that have

0:25

global impact. We hear from the

0:27

key players and influences who are

0:29

making in for me and shaping

0:31

the decisions that affect our school

0:33

and Sir Richard. We have such

0:35

a wide ranging conversation We Greece's

0:37

Special representative Ukraine Ambassador Spears Lambrinidis

0:40

who have some rubbish from was

0:42

to say about Russia the also

0:44

gave an insight into Greece's decision

0:46

to enhance it's relations with China.

0:48

Before we hear that. Sir

0:50

Richard We have to mock the latest tragedy

0:53

in Gaza. Were. Since the Seventh

0:55

of October, over thirty thousand people

0:57

have died. That's according to Causes

0:59

a mass run health ministry. Now

1:01

seven aid workers from the food

1:03

distribution charity World Central Kitchen have

1:06

been killed in an Israeli airstrike.

1:08

Switch of the charity says that

1:10

the movement of the Convoy of

1:12

Cause in which the aid workers

1:14

were traveling in had been coordinated

1:16

with the Israel Defense Forces. So

1:19

can you just talk us through

1:21

the kinds of details that the

1:23

idea. Would. Need from such a charity.

1:26

Going. Over firstly I'd say

1:28

is this is the Chaos of

1:30

Conflict The Chaos of war and.

1:33

There. Are probably. Quite.

1:35

Long movements being.

1:38

Reported. In coordinated at the

1:40

same time. Then. You

1:42

have the complexity of

1:44

the command structure of

1:46

the idea, coordinating amongst

1:48

themselves. And you

1:51

also have the complexity

1:53

added. By. A hammer

1:55

says use. of what

1:57

i would describe as cover by

2:01

using, we already are aware

2:03

and know to a certain degree, the extent to

2:06

which they've used medical

2:09

centres. And there's also

2:11

clear evidence that Hamas has been infiltrated,

2:13

some of the aid organisations, and

2:17

have apparently, or so

2:19

we're told, got sympathisers, or

2:21

maybe much more than sympathisers,

2:24

willing helpers amongst

2:26

some of the locals who are

2:28

recruited working for some of

2:31

the aid agencies. So the situation is

2:33

really complex. And I think I

2:36

would draw a parallel with Afghanistan,

2:39

where there were

2:42

quite a number of incidents,

2:44

I think mainly drain strikes, where

2:47

clearly the Americans or the British

2:50

had 40 intelligence

2:53

and attack targets that were not terrorist

2:56

targets. In fact, they were

2:58

attacking civilian gatherings and

3:00

there were a number of extraordinary

3:02

incidents. So somewhere in

3:05

this complexity, there's an explanation

3:07

that a local commander controlling,

3:10

let's say, drones, armed drones,

3:14

took a really bad decision. But

3:16

why and how

3:18

was that decision taken? Well,

3:20

we won't really know until

3:23

we get an explanation

3:25

from the so-called independent

3:28

examination that the Israelis

3:30

say that they're going to carry out

3:32

because of the international outcry about the

3:34

incident. You know, my

3:37

expectation is whether

3:39

you get this from the Israelis in detail,

3:41

I doubt it, but somewhere along the line,

3:45

the Israelis were

3:47

seduced by some what

3:50

they thought was accurate intelligence,

3:52

that this convoy moving up the

3:54

case was not what it purported

3:56

to be with that was being

3:58

used. by Hamas maybe

4:01

to transport some of their command

4:03

personnel to a different part of

4:05

Gaza. So what

4:08

I'm suggesting is that they had intelligence

4:10

from a source who they thought they

4:12

could trust but perhaps was under Hamas

4:15

control. Look, this is purely speculative. This

4:17

is based on my experience of

4:19

being in situations which

4:21

were not dissimilar. Tanks

4:24

move very fast and tactical

4:28

intelligence, that level on the

4:30

battlefield can very often

4:32

be wrong, can be confusing. So

4:36

there are many reasons why this may have

4:38

happened. Look, I think we

4:40

all understand that the Israelis

4:42

are intransigent. They're not easy

4:44

to control. They

4:46

are probably what we

4:49

would describe as trigger-happy. They're

4:51

not restrained. There's

4:53

a lack of care in respect

4:55

of the way that the civilian

4:57

population has been treated. And

5:00

you have a framework in a context

5:02

which I think explains such a tragic

5:05

and ghastly event. Also

5:07

bear in mind that

5:10

in a Hamas, have

5:12

influence on the ground. I mean, you

5:14

created at the beginning of this question,

5:17

you asked me, you know, statistics for

5:19

death. These do come from Hamas. And

5:22

personally, I would question any

5:24

information coming from Hamas. And

5:27

maybe one day we'll see

5:30

a more balanced picture. We'll see the sign

5:32

of the coin. And it's difficult because

5:34

both sides are hitting us with propaganda.

5:37

It's an interesting perspective, so Richard,

5:39

that you give, especially based upon

5:41

your experiences. Initial findings

5:44

of an investigation, according to the

5:46

IDF Chief of Staff, say

5:48

that this was a mistake that

5:50

follows a misidentification at night during

5:53

a war in very complex conditions.

5:55

And the Chief of Staff adds it shouldn't

5:57

have happened, but it's those very complex. The

6:00

nation's Sir Richard the Eurostar see

6:02

in the face of all very

6:04

difficult situation we can assess want

6:07

guess now who is known as

6:09

a Career Diplomats Having joined Greece's

6:11

Diplomatic service and Nineteen Eighty Three

6:14

among his many posts things he

6:16

says as Greece's Ambassador to Israel

6:18

and more recently was Greece's nominated

6:20

Permanent representative to Nato before retiring

6:23

last year. but retirement didn't last

6:25

long. But as he's back now

6:27

is Greece's Special Representative for Ukraine.

6:30

Ambassador Sphere slumber this welcome to

6:32

one decision to role as Greece

6:35

A Special Envoys Ukraine comes with

6:37

a very real risk. In March

6:39

you are weird Greece's Prime Minister

6:41

to be a Cosmic Societies I'm

6:43

President Vladimir. The landscape Ukraine's port

6:45

city of a desk in the

6:47

south. When you convoy came under

6:49

attack, a Russian Ballistic missiles start

6:51

just a few hundred meters from

6:54

where he will. We're. Now. That

6:56

was a very high school. Will.

6:58

Dot might have been close go by

7:00

fast but I'm not sure we were

7:02

aimed to because nobody really knows it was

7:04

close up. Of course a prisoner was

7:06

the of my problems there. was there,

7:08

the whole delegation was there, we action because

7:11

it was so it it was. As

7:13

you said, several hundred meters away. it's

7:15

hit the hunger in the poor area. Might

7:17

have been amendments to the president, might

7:19

have been a message to the west

7:21

and might have been a socket. the were

7:23

fighting the for. A

7:26

hundred was uses. The fact remains.

7:28

That Russia is a starting

7:30

with relentlessly Ukraine has posted

7:32

a video with this have

7:34

some people are dying Maybe

7:36

sometime This is totally unacceptable.

7:39

Now I. Was an innovative and keep.

7:41

Towards the end of twenty twenty three I

7:43

had air raid sirens. Luckily I didn't witness

7:45

any rocket attacks. Sir Richard When you're in

7:47

keep, however, you weren't so lucky. Well

7:50

as and keep the last may.

7:52

And it was a very. High level

7:55

security visit with a small group of

7:57

that we the that the invitation. Of

7:59

the. Intelligence and Security people. And

8:01

then I was saying that that in

8:04

sense T. Bambee Navy. Attacks

8:06

on T for fifty one days. but

8:08

the night we were that louis big

8:10

attack on the city. Actually, who are.

8:13

A number of rockets that got through

8:15

and cause damage in the street. At

8:17

any with take the fatal I love

8:19

to be honest I didn't the white

8:22

shark. I had to be what it's

8:24

about and hostile to have to an

8:26

air raid shelter spread a story. You

8:28

compare these situations. And. The

8:30

other sort of normality on the one them. And

8:33

an extreme abnormality. all the other than

8:36

I was very struck when I was

8:38

in Keep Half Life Two seem to

8:40

be carrying on despite the fact that

8:42

he that at the same time doing

8:44

a water in I think the Ambassador

8:46

program some experience and I don't just.

8:48

Haven't had that experience

8:51

ambassador having witnessed such

8:53

an attack. At such a

8:55

close range you. Have first hand

8:57

knowledge of what Ukrainians are facing

8:59

a Sir Richard said day in

9:01

day out and he doesn't frustrated

9:03

that this solidarity as chain that

9:06

we saw at the beginning of

9:08

Russia's full scale invasion across the

9:10

west at the moment seems to

9:12

be somewhat fracturing. Poor Tasha, I

9:14

wouldn't be so sure that his fracture.

9:17

It's of course notice that there's a

9:19

sense of this thing be prolonged and

9:21

dragging on for years but everybody understands

9:23

and on mars and stance of the

9:26

Ukrainian people that be so bravely resist.

9:28

This. Totally unacceptable but it's of

9:30

international law into their sovereignty by

9:32

Russia. All I can tell you

9:34

from all parts in Greece that

9:36

the of we're doing what we

9:38

can for limited Cup abilities in

9:40

supporting and beefing up the anti

9:43

aircraft. In Gen. Vi, the Ukrainian

9:45

defense officer do the same boat

9:47

in the framework for Vu and

9:49

of Nato and forces quite an

9:51

array of class at this point

9:53

in those organizations bless the United

9:55

States to continue supporting with Ukraine

9:57

is not an easy. Task. It's

9:59

not. It was from the taxpayers

10:01

to continue paying billions of Euros and

10:03

dollars for Ukraine. but this is the

10:05

right thing to do. As the Prime

10:08

Minister said from day one, we have

10:10

to be on the right side to

10:12

history. We have Greeks know what it

10:14

means to pretty sobering looking for a

10:16

target detect with your the nation We

10:18

cannot condone this. Tendency. Of

10:21

autocrats and Us revisionists have historically

10:23

like President Putin and others unfortunately

10:25

not day and age that stuff

10:27

proliferate in the first the world

10:29

and especially in Europe so we

10:31

have to stanza. The

10:34

me to see a spoon sort of

10:36

acetone beats. But we have to start

10:38

with Ukraine for as long as he

10:40

takes his Not only about Ukraine's it's

10:43

about our way of life, our democracies.

10:45

If we shield of this the future

10:47

of your of the future of international

10:49

order based on the rules and principles

10:51

is a federal. One of the

10:54

side effects of of withholding of the

10:56

sixty billion that the Us Congress has

10:58

failed to bait to seems to me

11:01

and it's a beneficial side effect was

11:03

be much much more effort amongst the

11:05

European nations to get their act together

11:08

and to sort of consolidate their support.

11:10

I mean your bags in or involve

11:12

most years of observation of the success

11:15

of the European Initiative, now you've had

11:17

a change of attitude in France you

11:19

had other countries in are stepping up,

11:22

increase in their resources, increasing. Their

11:24

almonds in the States army this this

11:26

coordination really gain to deliver a beneficial

11:28

European effect over time is already delivered

11:30

Him but of course we shouldn't see

11:33

from that angle of we should be

11:35

at in our efforts to the efforts

11:37

of the United States. The step enough

11:40

of the efforts in the European Union

11:42

or European Summer with this point does

11:44

not mean that the United States can

11:46

remain complacency. Look at our money's not

11:49

need to think what's on the contrary.

11:51

It's crucial to do sixty. billion pass

11:53

through somehow from the house of representatives

11:56

in my recent visit to washington i

11:58

was assured by the number of sources,

12:00

bipartisan by the way, that one way

12:03

or the other, this is going to

12:05

pass somehow. I don't know the method,

12:07

I don't know how they're going to

12:09

do it, but they understand that this

12:11

is crucial. Don't forget that several years

12:13

ago when President Trump was accused in

12:15

Europe of not doing enough for its

12:17

own defense, in the framework of NATO

12:19

there was a decision of stepping up

12:22

the efforts of all countries, reaching the

12:24

expenditure of 2% of their GDP and

12:26

30% of that in investments of

12:29

our governments. Many of them, including Greece,

12:31

is way above that. We are at 3.8 at this

12:33

point. So Europe

12:35

did understand from that moment

12:38

onwards we need to beef

12:40

up our own initiatives on defense, including

12:42

the defensive industry. And you're very right

12:44

in saying that France took the lead

12:46

in that, all the rest are following. And

12:49

I think we're on a good road on that. On

12:51

that point of defense spending, Greece

12:53

is spending above that figure, above

12:56

that 2% figure. Last

12:58

year, you and actually the UK as well,

13:00

you did lower your overall defense spending. I

13:02

wonder why. Well, it's a question

13:05

of handling, it's a question of logistics more

13:07

or less. It depends on the installments of

13:09

payments on purchases. One year is higher, one

13:11

year is less, it's the interest rates, it's

13:14

what you pay upfront, what you pay in

13:16

the sequence. The general trend over

13:18

the next 10 years is for this to

13:20

stay way above the 2% between 2.5

13:23

and 3.8 throughout the decade. So

13:27

one year will be a little less, one little more.

13:30

But the purchases are there, the commands are being

13:32

placed, and as you know, they're going to be

13:34

increased by the F-35s very soon. It

13:37

has been, as you know, a perennial

13:39

problem of Greece, not linked to Ukraine.

13:42

But Ukraine can benefit from that because some of

13:44

the arguments will be superfluous

13:46

now that we are receiving new

13:49

systems. And some of them, there is

13:51

very serious talk of being transferred somehow

13:53

to the fronts where they're

13:55

needed at this point. Pérez, can I

13:57

just ask you a further question about...

14:00

let's say European relations with China.

14:02

I think one of the frustrating

14:04

aspects of the EU

14:06

in particular has been its failure

14:08

to coordinate the common foreign and

14:11

security policy, a sort of

14:13

European attitude to China. So you've got

14:15

Germany doing one thing,

14:17

thinking very much about its car industry. You've

14:19

got France, which has always sort of been

14:22

rather, it is syncretic in the way that

14:24

it's treated China. Italy, again,

14:26

is in a different place. And

14:29

I'm quite reassured when you tell me

14:31

about Greece. But this

14:34

is one of the key foreign policy issues

14:36

for the EU as a whole. And I

14:38

mean, personally, I'm quite relieved that the UK

14:40

isn't any longer trying to coordinate a European

14:43

line on China, because we

14:45

don't have the authority in Brussels to do

14:47

that any longer. But I mean,

14:49

can you reflect on how that might be handled

14:51

in the future? Because it seems to me that

14:53

one of the keys

14:55

for the Western world is

14:58

how we manage our

15:00

relations with China. And

15:02

that big international issue as sort

15:05

of Pax American plays World War

15:07

Two, you know, disappears. That

15:09

relationship between the West and China is

15:11

absolutely crucial. Well, let me put it

15:14

this way, Richard, it's a very complicated

15:16

and one million dotted question. Some years

15:18

ago, when we started discussing China as

15:20

a subject for the first time in

15:23

NATO, it came as a surprise. And

15:25

then we got some lessons from the

15:27

EU that was a bit more advanced

15:30

in the holistic approach towards China. The

15:32

EU has a triptych on this saying

15:35

designating China as a partner, a

15:37

challenge, and then as a

15:40

threat. I think NATO is

15:42

following the same pattern at this point. Certainly

15:44

we're not a stage three, we have no reason

15:46

to be there. And hopefully we will never

15:48

get there. A part of

15:50

yes, it should be a partner, because

15:52

economic diplomacy cannot exclude one of the

15:55

biggest economies in the world. On

15:57

the other hand, being democratic states

15:59

have been free in their

16:01

choices, the members of the

16:03

EU designate so far their own, let's

16:05

say, financial and commercial policies, not

16:08

entirely freely, of course, because they

16:11

have to follow EU regulations and

16:13

the directives naturally and the whole

16:15

legislation. Provided that this

16:17

is, let's say, kept and this

16:19

is done, I have no problem of any

16:22

of the German, Greek, Italian companies to

16:24

do business with China. On the contrary, it's

16:26

beneficial for everyone. But

16:28

the challenge remains, there's a huge

16:30

discussion on that. We all know

16:32

the realities, the United States and

16:35

Canada have paid dearly for the

16:37

realities of that, let's say, industrial

16:39

and financial espionage. Europe,

16:42

we are not entirely naive also,

16:44

so we take our precautions. As

16:47

you see, the Silicon Belt

16:49

Road initiative does not advance

16:52

that brilliantly anymore, because

16:54

we realized that there was not so much advantage for the

16:56

West in that. So yeah,

16:58

we are trying to cope with

17:01

the realities of a very complicated

17:03

world that probably from cooperation and

17:05

partnership is first, in some cases,

17:08

in the second pillar of challenge,

17:10

as I said before, but

17:12

I insist, at least Greece

17:14

insists that we should never reach the

17:16

point of finding China in

17:18

front of us as a threat. I don't

17:21

think China wants that either. It's not in

17:23

fair interest, and it's not in

17:25

the West's interest, at least as long

17:27

as Russia is behaving so irresponsibly as

17:29

it behaves at this moment. So

17:32

let's be realistic, let's be cynical,

17:34

and let's not exclude China from

17:37

our daily business, as long as

17:39

this business is transparent, is beneficial

17:41

to both sides, and

17:43

it does not turn into an economic war. It

17:46

is not an economic war, by the way. And

17:48

President Biden has repeatedly stated, so

17:50

we're not at a duel with

17:52

China in any form.

17:55

So let's keep it that way. Yeah,

17:57

I know. I mean, just look at

17:59

the business delegation. The from the United

18:01

States which which was in China

18:03

it this looks like a real

18:05

attempt on the Chinese to sort

18:07

of relaunch at least the economic

18:09

relationship with the U S investment

18:11

and financial industry. Increase

18:13

ambassador wants to see itself as

18:15

a bridge between the European Union

18:18

and China and that's something that

18:20

was mentioned by the great governments

18:22

around the time of November's meeting.

18:24

Then net the suspending the sick

18:27

any office miss attack is when

18:29

survey James movies say then it's

18:31

of those politicians not thinking is

18:33

specifically if the Dutch Foreign Trade

18:36

minister. He said that making effective

18:38

eve policy was being hampered by

18:40

Says and Edu member states. And

18:43

she mentioned Greece and she mentioned specifically

18:45

the Greece has been too dependent on

18:48

China. I know where

18:50

she dug deeper. Put we're not depend

18:52

on china old sleep with external commerce

18:54

with sign that represents i think two

18:56

three percent of all over all external

18:58

prayed so I don't think he's such

19:00

a huge quantity and unfortunately I must

19:02

say it's been even worse now with

19:04

the problems we're facing because before the

19:06

situation in the red sea in the

19:08

gulf there because a lot of the

19:11

traffic of have used to come from

19:13

this was come up with the rose

19:15

has been to be a that on

19:17

around him to Rolta Awesome quite. The

19:19

damage to the forefront good as therefore

19:21

are. I wish you could do more

19:23

instead of mess So I totally disagree

19:26

with the Minster with all respect of

19:28

course have that inside the know what

19:30

she got her information but amenities as

19:32

you said before been a bridge between

19:34

the zoo and frighten us. I don't

19:37

think responded as a breeze come for

19:39

that much of the birds and it's

19:41

too heavy on the bridge will collapse.

19:43

Know we only want the hubble role

19:46

As I said a an intermediary because

19:48

of geography because. the portofino since there

19:50

and for the last year it's

19:52

been the largest er mrs reports

19:54

in the mediterranean and can be

19:56

very useful for the vertical axis

19:58

from the mediterranean or

20:00

the Red Sea through the

20:03

Aegean, and by land, the

20:05

vertical axis, both in commodities,

20:07

good energy, to Bulgaria, Romania

20:09

and ultimately Ukraine. Something

20:12

that is already happening, by the way, the

20:14

most part of Aleksandro Polis is becoming a

20:16

very important hub of

20:19

logistics, commodities, even

20:21

military material going up to Ukraine.

20:23

It's a very safe way, either

20:25

by train or by road. It's

20:28

passing through two more NATO and

20:30

EU states, Romania and Bulgaria. Therefore,

20:32

it bypasses the straits and all the

20:35

hazards that lie, unfortunately, today in the

20:37

Black Sea because of mining,

20:40

and it's more and more important.

20:42

So if we can facilitate in

20:44

any way the commerce and the

20:47

ways of transporting goods and

20:49

people from the East and the Sea to

20:51

the North and to Ukraine, all the better.

20:54

If China is included again as a

20:56

partner, again, all the better. Spiroz, one

20:59

just very practical question about Piraeus and

21:01

the Chinese investment in the port. I

21:03

mean, Biden is now removing

21:06

all the Chinese software from the cranes built

21:09

by China in American ports. Have

21:11

you possibly got the same problem in Piraeus or

21:13

not? Look, Richard, the port

21:15

of Piraeus was open for tender, if

21:18

I'm not mistaken, in 2010

21:20

for the first time, and

21:22

no European or American firm

21:24

was present to claim it.

21:27

So unfortunately, at the peak

21:29

of our crisis, I think 2011, 2012, somewhere around there, we

21:34

had, according to the European Union

21:36

regulations on economic conditions and on

21:38

competition, we had to

21:40

give it to the best tender according always

21:42

to the European regulation. And that was unfortunately,

21:44

it was Costco. There was nothing else to

21:46

do. It was a beginning port.

21:48

It was losing money. It would have to

21:50

close down. And it's a vital port for

21:53

us because most of our transports, not only

21:55

people grow good, but people

21:57

to the wonderful islands of the

21:59

Aegean. The world is millions of dollars.

22:01

golf not appear so fierce. could not

22:04

afford to close down. We had to

22:06

fight investor it's gospel so far we

22:08

have no complaints. It's not a strategic

22:10

for from the military point of you've

22:13

got nothing major thirty minutes it's only

22:15

commercial port is all but it's function

22:17

in according to European junior a delicious

22:19

is is fighting other the Greek low

22:21

and solely part of the point by

22:24

the way that inserts run by the

22:26

chinese costco these civilian positive part of

22:28

the passing. This is totally. Owned by

22:30

the Greek states of I don't see any danger

22:32

of had. Countries are now trying

22:35

see become a nurse dependence on

22:37

China. Following that concerns over as

22:39

a Chinese treatments have been misled.

22:41

We get commune to say and

22:44

get. You a very much

22:46

not abandoning this country. A

22:48

Your words. He said Greece is

22:50

not abandoning China. I just wonder

22:53

given the belt and road initiative

22:55

given me significant since the press

22:57

pause as he were describing. I'm

23:00

not concerned we would be concerts

23:02

again. The focus yeah if we

23:04

had to from China any of

23:06

our strategic mistake your first Texan,

23:08

whether to defence security or let's

23:10

say for the communications none of

23:12

that is in Chinese hands were

23:14

very proud and bit confident that

23:16

we the precepts, fitness and Swift's

23:18

companies on our side of the

23:20

want to men too much know

23:22

who they are, they're very well.

23:24

No it's so we're not afraid

23:27

of whole by the Chinese incursion

23:29

the same. Views we do have

23:31

Chinese investors find once they're buying real

23:33

estate and most of it in the

23:35

way and it's synonym for additional Have

23:38

suffered so vast and sore after the

23:40

smell Little wants to rustic areas of

23:42

ways to find now and very sympathetic.

23:45

Very quiet signs for me to live

23:47

in there were there to this they're

23:49

not Massachusetts hopes. However, when we got

23:52

the side they're on hybrid warfare. This

23:54

a different story. Greece is very very

23:56

deeply anchored within the European Union and

23:59

Nato. We feel confident

24:01

on both our participations. We're doing what

24:03

we have to do. We're not severe

24:05

in a relationship with China. There's no

24:07

reason for doing that. None of the

24:09

European states is doing so. But

24:11

we are all, of course, prudent

24:14

and keep our defenses up against

24:16

anyone who might be aiming

24:18

with malicious intents towards

24:21

our country or our union

24:23

or our NATO alliance. So

24:25

we are very alert, especially

24:28

nowadays where we had this

24:30

horrific attack on Russian innocent

24:32

civilians. And we're very,

24:34

very disappointed in seeing the effort by

24:36

the entourage of President Putin trying to

24:38

pin this on a neighboring

24:41

country. It's quite an improper thing

24:43

again. Here is a possible thing

24:45

without proof, without even indications to

24:47

try to, let's

24:49

say, stir up even more the

24:52

passions against the neighboring country that

24:54

is already invaded by Russia by

24:57

erroneously and unjustly blaming

24:59

them of this horrific

25:01

attack. It's so obviously

25:03

done by ISIS-Korostan. We're

25:06

coming up for the European parliamentary

25:08

elections in June. Are

25:10

you concerned about the polarisation

25:12

and the rise of far-right

25:15

parties, their popularities? And

25:18

what kind of impact is that having on

25:20

Greece? Of course, you had the situation with

25:22

Golden Dawn not as popular anymore. But what

25:24

is the situation now in Greece? Of

25:27

course, I'm worried, Cassia. Every Greek citizen,

25:29

every consensus Greek citizen should be worried

25:31

and should go and vote. That is

25:33

the big problem for the Euro elections

25:35

next June. I think everyone who

25:37

is responsible and having a responsible position

25:39

in all of our societies should take

25:41

the people that he knows, his friends,

25:43

his relatives, the people on the street,

25:47

shake them and say to them, it's your

25:49

obligation, it's not your right to go and

25:51

vote for your own freedoms. Because if you

25:53

don't, the fanatics will go and vote. And

25:56

the fanatics are on both ends, left and

25:58

right. And you know, these end. very

26:00

often linked together and again I will

26:02

become a historical monster and I will

26:04

remind you of the ribbons of a

26:06

lot of accord. Just before the Cold

26:09

War the two extremes of

26:11

the time had linked their forces

26:13

to attack for Poland so that

26:16

is an exaggeration of course but what

26:18

you asked me Cassia in the Greek

26:20

political scene at this point we see

26:22

a polarization things are much better than

26:25

another European countries if you add up

26:27

the very little extreme right party for extreme

26:29

left parties you've got at least and as

26:32

you know in the euro elections people vote

26:34

a little bit more freely a little bit

26:36

more carelessly they say okay let's forget the

26:38

traditional parties let's vote for an alternative after

26:40

all they're not going to go over me

26:43

they're going to send some people in the

26:45

euro parliament and that is

26:47

a fear that they might gather

26:49

on the two extremes the totality

26:51

of perhaps 25% divided

26:54

between the two extremes all the

26:56

polls show that the extreme right in

26:58

various little parties is

27:00

rising not to the point that

27:03

we can worry about majorities of course each

27:05

attack is folding very strongly with

27:08

his party the major opposition is

27:10

at this point in a sort

27:12

of disarray because of its internal

27:14

problems but as we said Cassia

27:16

it is a danger that we might see

27:18

a new euro parliament needed for the next

27:20

five years polarized having a

27:22

lot of voices that are not in

27:25

the mainstream of European politics and

27:27

that would pose problems also to

27:29

the European legislation to the European Commission

27:32

to the European Council and to national

27:34

parliaments as well if you have disproportionate

27:37

representation in the euro parliament from

27:39

your national parliament is bound to

27:41

affect your national parliament in the

27:44

next special in the lectures as

27:46

well Greece and spirits

27:48

really is one of those

27:50

countries that's sitting on the front line of

27:52

immigration from the south

27:55

and from the east but

27:57

it seems to me recently that has

28:00

been more successful maybe than other countries

28:02

in coping with the problem. I

28:04

mean, what's the state of play at the moment

28:06

and what impact is that having on

28:09

the issues that we're talking about in

28:11

terms of politics? Because if you go,

28:13

for example, to Southern Italy, I

28:16

mean, the impact of immigration in the

28:18

urban areas of Southern Italy is just

28:20

massive at the moment. Richard, it

28:22

is a problem. It's no use hiding our heads

28:24

in the sun like Austria says. Well,

28:27

there is no problem. We managed to cope with

28:29

it. We didn't manage to cope

28:31

with it. We managed to cope with

28:33

it partially because we built a tremendous

28:35

fence, which is a shame

28:38

in our day and age and 21st century

28:40

instead of bringing down fences to build up

28:42

fences. We built up, unfortunately,

28:44

after the crisis we had in 2020

28:46

with Turkey, we built up a fence

28:49

up on the river Everest in the north and

28:51

we stopped 90 percent of the

28:53

influence of immigrants there. Also, we

28:55

built up enormously thanks

28:58

also to the European Union

29:00

with Frontex assistance, our

29:02

Coast Guard patrols with modern

29:04

systems, modern boats in the

29:06

Aegean. And because we're running

29:08

through a very hopefully happy

29:10

and hopefully long period of

29:13

the time with our Eastern

29:15

neighbor, we managed with mutual

29:17

efforts to curb to

29:19

the substantial degree the

29:22

trafficking of humans across the Aegean. Because

29:24

I must be honest with you, naturally

29:27

back in 2020 and

29:29

before, we did have, obviously,

29:31

a deliberate tendency from our Eastern

29:33

neighbor to dump on us what

29:36

they did not desire to host. And

29:39

it was a challenge. We managed now with

29:41

mutual efforts to curb the

29:43

phenomenon that is mainly based on

29:45

personal interests of traffickers who are

29:47

criminals. And they're both Greeks,

29:49

Turks and internationals. So that

29:51

is being successfully challenged. However, lately,

29:54

this is in Europe because exactly

29:56

these criminals, they try to make

29:58

money out of it. of poverty

30:00

and the misery of

30:03

unfortunate human beings coming from Africa and

30:05

Asia, they discovered a new route coming

30:08

from the extreme west part

30:10

of Egypt directly to the

30:13

south of Crete. So all of a sudden

30:15

we receive hundreds of refugees from there. Actually,

30:17

it's not refugees, it's immigrants, Africans

30:19

mostly. We are trying with Egypt now

30:21

to do the same thing we did

30:23

with Turkey, cooperate to curb that kind

30:26

of phenomenon. But these things change from

30:28

one day to the other. Because of

30:30

the more general situation that's more better

30:32

than me, there's a constant pressure from

30:34

the south and this is going to

30:36

get worse because of climate change, because

30:38

of political instability, because of what is

30:40

going on in Africa and the Middle East. So we

30:43

have to be preferred as a

30:45

general European society to

30:47

cope in a humane but

30:49

also effective way with something

30:51

that might completely overturn balances

30:53

in the next decades in

30:55

Europe. Ambassador, you mentioned the Middle

30:57

East. You were previously ambassador of

30:59

Greece to Israel between 2013 and

31:01

2016. I have to get your

31:03

thoughts therefore on the situation right

31:05

now in Gaza.

31:09

You touched a

31:11

very sentimental point in my heart because that

31:14

was the second time I had a tour

31:16

in Israel. The previous one was in the

31:18

early 90s. I had witnessed the Gulf War.

31:20

So I worked with my Israeli brothers

31:23

at the time, the gas mask on my face.

31:25

So I know what it means to

31:27

be frightened, to be scared, and

31:30

to be brutally beaten

31:32

and invaded and tortured and

31:34

raped as it happened in

31:36

October. I agree with all

31:38

of that, but the answer to that is

31:40

not more violence, to the extent

31:42

and to the extreme that we're witnessing now in

31:44

Gaza, with the real suffering

31:47

of thousands and tens and hundreds

31:49

of thousands of civilians, among which

31:51

of course the criminal terrorists of

31:53

Hamas are hiding. There's no doubt

31:55

about that. So we sympathize with

31:57

the effort of Israel to annihilate

31:59

this. vulgar and

32:01

brutal and barbaric organization,

32:04

but the civilian population have nothing to do

32:07

with it and they should not suffer this.

32:09

So in case that we have, let's

32:11

say, an escalation of violence,

32:14

I really don't know how much more you can

32:16

escalate from what we had here. We only hear

32:18

about one land attack on the

32:20

Rafah, which is the last refuge for hundreds of

32:22

thousands of civilians. We will

32:25

have a massacre, which is totally

32:27

unacceptable. So the international community should

32:29

do its best to try and

32:31

convince, cooperate, not accuse the

32:33

Israeli government, cooperate with it to

32:35

find an effective way to, let's

32:38

say, neutralize Hamas without endangering

32:40

more human suffering. I know it

32:42

sounds naive. I know it might

32:44

not be practical, but we cannot

32:46

condone, and Greece does not condone,

32:48

a land attack on Rafah. It

32:50

could be really a disaster situation.

32:52

It is already disastrous because even

32:54

if this crisis is over soon,

32:56

and we hope and we pray

32:59

it is over soon, what

33:01

remains back in Gaza is beyond description.

33:03

I don't know how people will be

33:05

able to live in that strip of

33:08

land if not extensive, massive

33:10

international aid and reconstruction as soon

33:12

as possible. And don't forget, summer

33:14

is coming in that area very,

33:16

very soon. By next month, temperatures

33:19

will be in the high 30s

33:21

and there will be no running

33:23

water, no electricity, no purification of

33:25

water, no sanitation systems. It's going

33:27

to be a humanitarian hell.

33:31

I don't know how these people

33:33

will survive differently. Spiros, I

33:35

share your view and your

33:37

nostalgia for your time in Israel,

33:39

and I dealt extensively, obviously, with

33:42

the Israelis. The one

33:44

thing I found was

33:46

that when it comes to issues that relate,

33:48

as it were, to what they say, the

33:50

survival of the Israeli state. They

33:52

are in transit. They're very,

33:55

very difficult to deal with. I mean, they are

33:57

the most reasonable, Extraordinary..

34:00

Re people. Here are

34:02

the entrepreneurial and and Israel is

34:04

an incredible country. Battle.

34:06

The other hand, This. Is point

34:08

of intransigence where they become very very

34:10

very difficult to deal with. The months

34:12

the most difficult. Experiences I

34:15

had professionally and I I think

34:17

the way we breach now. In

34:20

Gaza is that point at which

34:22

you know there is this intransigence

34:24

not to listen to advice. Not.

34:26

To compromise even from that closest allies.

34:29

So in a is that gonna be

34:31

a way around this problem. Percent.

34:33

I couldn't agree more with you.

34:35

I'm afraid I don't have an

34:37

answer either Seem to some passengers

34:39

and since I've been twice in

34:41

new songs in the meantime have

34:43

been dealing with Israel is all

34:45

across the world. the for so

34:48

many years I see this interesting

34:50

crazy this what worries me the

34:52

Israeli society itself that's not the

34:54

time of the the place to

34:56

analyze It has gone under tremendous

34:58

changes Alterations are mutations over the

35:00

last decade because of the improve

35:02

some black. Numbers of are immigrants

35:04

have exchanged the actual substance and

35:06

assistance on the side. The fabric

35:09

of say oh it's you and

35:11

I are of the decades the

35:13

sale of the not not bored

35:15

after the two thousand and will

35:17

not be lens either of us.

35:20

So the Israel remember of ah

35:22

rapping or our affairs of know

35:24

that is got their normal kibbutzniks

35:26

litter I mean okay that's a

35:28

Buddhist but not because we know

35:30

there's no blame or party those

35:33

historical. And to right figures of

35:35

the survival of Israel have got.

35:38

The. News Rises that is a very

35:40

different aerial very western very effective States

35:42

is becoming very presence and in terms

35:44

of political positions you know the composition

35:47

of the cutting governments you look positions

35:49

a fair for the in about the

35:51

western backed. By

35:53

all standards the United Nations resolutions that

35:56

that the statements of awkward efficiency the.com

35:58

acceptable with with them up. of

36:00

this kind of politics. They say

36:02

simply, Israel has to survive, absolutely

36:04

yes, nobody denies that, and

36:06

we don't care about anything else. No,

36:08

it's not like that. There's another people

36:10

living there, they have their rights, inherent

36:12

rights, and they have to be heard. What

36:15

is the alternative to their proposal? They don't want

36:17

to discuss it with the Palestinian Authority. What else,

36:19

who else is there to discuss it with them?

36:22

I mean, they're discrediting a bus in

36:24

the Palestinian Authority. Well, the alternative is

36:27

Islamic Hamas, Hamas,

36:29

or bala, is that what they want? So

36:32

really, I'm at a loss. When

36:34

I talk with my Israeli friends, some of

36:36

them are at a loss by the way

36:38

too, because Israel remains an active democracy, and

36:40

probably that's the only thing that's going to

36:43

save it in the long run. That

36:45

people at one certain point will

36:47

react to intransigent and extra

36:49

mispositions because they see that they don't

36:52

pay off. It was

36:54

a very right-wing government. When the

36:56

October incident happened, so

36:59

if these people think, believe,

37:01

and advocate that they're increasing the

37:03

security of Israel, what was the

37:05

security on October the 7th? It

37:09

was the biggest debacle and disaster

37:11

of Israel since the Yom Kippur

37:13

War. And

37:15

no army attacked them, by the way,

37:17

some irregulars attacked them, and they overwhelmed

37:20

them. They overwhelmed the entire South and

37:22

Command. It was incredible. So

37:24

now the price is being paid

37:26

by those who are not responsible,

37:28

unfortunately, by the civilians. And

37:30

mind me, I'm almost retired

37:33

now. I can say almost anything I want. My

37:36

point, the real culprits will not be

37:38

caught, and they will not pay. The

37:41

civilians will pay. The ones who organize

37:43

this are already perhaps outside Gaza. Ambassador,

37:45

before we end, I just wanted to ask,

37:48

I thought you were retired and you

37:50

came out of retirement. Is

37:52

there ever a time to stop? Do

37:54

you ever stop working? Well, I

37:56

think diplomats, especially perverted

37:58

diplomats, like... myself serving my

38:01

country for 40 years are

38:03

a sort of a vampire thing

38:05

concerning external policies. We come back.

38:08

Well, I was honored. I was actually

38:10

recalled a few months after I was

38:12

in retirement by my government to serve

38:14

in this very, very difficult, very demanding,

38:17

but extremely honorary position. And I'm glad

38:19

I do that. I do my best

38:21

in my humble capacity to help Ukraine

38:23

and help my country vis-a-vis Ukraine, because

38:26

as you know, we did have and

38:29

we continue to have and we will have in the future, a

38:32

big prosperous community in the south of

38:34

Ukraine in the area of Mariupo that

38:36

unfortunately is occupied in Odessa. We don't

38:38

want to lose that link. There's

38:41

a team of people working on

38:43

reconstruction of Ukraine already and assistance

38:46

of Ukraine. I'm very proud to

38:48

work with these people. And I think my

38:50

role is just helping those people deliver

38:52

their goals, their political goals, which is in

38:55

the words of my prime minister, we're on

38:57

the right side of history and we'll stay

38:59

there for as long as it takes. Ambassador

39:02

Speros Lemblidis, thank you so much for

39:04

sharing your thoughts and speaking to us

39:06

here on one decision. Thank you. Thank

39:08

you so much, Kasia and Richard. It's been a pleasure and

39:10

an honor speaking to you. Thank you. Well,

39:14

a very extraordinary,

39:17

what I would describe as sort of

39:19

mainline European diplomat, but

39:21

one also with his own mind

39:24

is very, very interesting discussion. You

39:27

can see the diplomacy at work

39:29

and his careful positioning of Greece

39:31

on these issues. I don't think

39:34

I quite agree with the way

39:36

he described it. It all sounds

39:39

a bit too perfect, but on the other

39:41

hand, it's good to get that sort of

39:43

balanced inside view. I think there's a bit

39:45

of complacency there about China. Interestingly,

39:49

a massive expression of commitment to Ukraine,

39:52

which I thought is

39:54

really, really important, particularly coming

39:57

from a country like Greece, which of course has the

39:59

same problems with the Turkey, which we didn't

40:01

discuss. Absolutely fascinating. He

40:03

briefly touched upon he was hoping that

40:05

those relations were a little bit calmer,

40:07

I guess, very much

40:09

on message when he was talking about being

40:12

on the right side of history. And I

40:14

guess that's the career politician aspect that you

40:16

picked up on. But I was fascinated

40:18

to hear how when it comes

40:20

to Russia, Russia is behaving irresponsibly,

40:23

but China, China is not behaving

40:25

irresponsibly and should be seen

40:28

very much as a partner. He wouldn't back down

40:30

on that. Well, I think that

40:32

is a type of European view. I

40:35

mean, I think there's a mutation going on

40:38

at the moment in attitudes to China.

40:40

And there's been a huge shift in

40:42

the United States. You

40:44

know, there's been a huge shift in the Five Eyes

40:46

Nations, who I think have been up

40:50

closer to the problem

40:52

of an aggressive, expansive China than

40:54

maybe a country like Greece has.

40:58

And, you know, there is a

41:00

difference of view. There's no question. And

41:03

most countries in the family of

41:05

training, I'm thinking, particularly of Italy

41:08

and Greece have actually a

41:11

pretty close and trouble free

41:13

relationship with China. And

41:15

in a way, that's one of

41:17

the problems in the

41:20

EU taking a more, you

41:22

know, aggressive attitude. Do

41:24

you think there's an aspect of naivety

41:26

in that case when it comes

41:28

to Greece and its relationship

41:30

with China? Because they do describe

41:33

themselves as a bridge between the

41:35

EU and China. And if the

41:37

European Union is taking a more

41:39

aggressive stance, then where does that

41:41

leave Greece? Yeah, that's a good

41:43

question. And we're reluctant to call it

41:45

naivety. I think at the

41:47

moment, you know, it seems, I mean, look, bear

41:50

in mind that, you know, Greece

41:52

is the world's primary shipping nation. A

41:55

lot of its economy depends on

41:57

international trade. I can't remember.

42:00

what quantity it is of the world's

42:02

goods that are moved by ship as

42:04

opposed to any other means. They

42:07

are an important mercantile

42:09

cog in the international

42:12

situation. I think in a way,

42:15

there's an explanation for the

42:17

position that Greece is taking.

42:20

I agree with the ambassador on one key

42:22

point, that our

42:24

economies are intertwined with China.

42:27

It's not like the Cold War. The

42:30

economies of the West were never intertwined with

42:32

the Soviet Union. We

42:35

have a completely different situation now, where

42:37

we have a strategic

42:40

competition with

42:42

China, which is heading towards enmity. But

42:44

at the same time, our economies are

42:46

totally intertwined. He

42:50

has a point in terms

42:52

of the position he's taking. He

42:54

did actually say when I asked

42:56

him about that

42:58

issue of how you

43:00

handle China, he did say, well, it's

43:02

the $100 million question. Then it is

43:04

the $100 million question. I think what's

43:06

fascinating about this interview

43:09

that we did with him is

43:12

you're getting a perspective which

43:15

is understandable, which is different from

43:17

the mainline perspective at the moment,

43:19

which is being pushed in

43:21

the UK, in Australia, in the United

43:24

States, where there's been a huge shift

43:26

in relations to China. Greece is

43:29

not the only European

43:31

Union country that is taking part in

43:33

this Belt and Road initiative, this huge

43:36

infrastructure development strategy. Those critics

43:38

that suggest perhaps that it's

43:41

a Trojan horse for China

43:43

to get into nations. What would

43:45

you say to that? It is

43:47

a Trojan horse because I think

43:49

a lot of the countries which are enthusiastic

43:51

participants in Belt and Road have found That

43:54

it comes at a massive cost,

43:56

not only indebtedness, but the economic

43:58

benefit to the country. Chinese

44:01

investment partners. The phantom them

44:03

dominated by Chinese employment Chinese

44:05

business you know, web. Chinese

44:08

ship out there. I'm worthless even

44:10

as it relates cause of massive

44:12

problems. I think it's less. Of

44:15

a problem. Is the

44:18

worst because the proportion of investment

44:20

in relation to the economy a

44:22

smaller. At

44:24

it even countries like Italy

44:26

now have accepted Chinese investment

44:28

on purpose. Falcon right terms

44:30

are having concerns. The.

44:33

Fact is, it's a hugely

44:35

politicized program and and I'm

44:37

in. the irony. Is if

44:39

you look at it closely it's not

44:41

as big as the to in his

44:43

purported to be. If you see with

44:45

I mean they've used it's of leverage

44:47

their international influence. I can't remember what

44:49

the statistics are now, but before Britain

44:52

does, it's a budget. The British Aid

44:54

budget was. A. Significant proportion the

44:56

what fell to read investment was is

44:58

no longer the case for the it

45:00

was in the past a new and

45:03

we didn't use our aid budget as

45:05

a vehicle for promoting. British

45:07

influence in the way that China

45:09

was using both And right. And

45:11

I think now there's a sort

45:13

of academic and economic reassessment of

45:15

belt and road which gives them

45:17

very very different survive stamp and identity

45:20

and critically reputation internationally. And I

45:22

mean I think the Chinese are

45:24

beginning to play it. found it's not

45:26

nearly as important for them as

45:28

it was a little cheesy. Bring

45:30

the luge that there was a brilliant

45:32

idea of good propaganda idea. let's

45:34

face and clamor for for their

45:36

pride. And it's to past. ten years

45:38

of wow separatist brilliant the state's law

45:41

that is it for this week's episode

45:43

to one decision we to a new

45:45

episode that will tell thought was a

45:47

top of the line tell us your

45:49

thoughts what decisions have impacted me what

45:51

you need you to write him off

45:53

our email is one decisions at one

45:55

decision podcast.com that for me from the

45:57

riches and the team thank you for

45:59

this Until next time.