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0:58

We need a modicum of vitality

1:01

for what simply being alive in

1:03

this time asks of us. And

1:06

we're in an enduringly tender place.

1:09

The mental health crisis that is invoked

1:12

all around, especially as we look to

1:14

the young, is one manifestation

1:17

of the gravity of the post-2020

1:19

world that each of us is carrying.

1:22

even as we try to power through in the

1:24

face of ungrieved losses and

1:27

unnerving change. I'm

1:29

longing for us to find ways to name

1:31

and honor this more openly, because

1:34

it is showing up sideways in our families

1:36

and workplaces and communities, even

1:39

as we try to power through. I'm

1:42

also longing for us to hold this more

1:44

honest grappling together with

1:47

the questions of what we have been given

1:49

to see and to learn. learn.

1:51

Who are we now and who

1:53

are we called to be moving forward?

1:57

I cannot imagine a more brilliant

2:00

wise and kind conversation

2:02

partner about all of this than

2:04

the Surgeon General of the United States, Dr.

2:07

Vivek Murthy. He

2:09

is a renowned physician and research

2:11

scientist, and for years he's been naming

2:14

and investigating loneliness as

2:16

a public health matter, including

2:18

his own experience of that very human

2:20

condition. And it is

2:23

beyond rare to sit with a person

2:25

holding high government office who

2:27

speaks about love with

2:30

ease and dignity and

2:32

about the agency to be healers that

2:34

is available to us all. There

2:37

is so much here to walk away with

2:40

and into. This conversation

2:42

quieted and touched a room

2:45

full of raucous podcasters at

2:47

the 2023 On Air in

2:49

Brooklyn, and I am so happy

2:52

to invite you into that experience

2:54

now. I'm Christa Tippett,

2:57

and this is On Being.

3:04

It's

3:04

important for me to quickly set the scene for

3:06

you to take in what unfolds here. Vivek

3:09

Morthy sits with me in military

3:11

regalia because part of his

3:14

role makes him a vice-admiral, commanding

3:16

a uniformed service of over 6,000

3:19

public health officers serving

3:21

vulnerable populations. And

3:25

we are sitting in exactly the same

3:27

place, perhaps the same

3:29

chairs, where I interviewed Ocean

3:31

Vong in March 2020.

3:34

Unbeknownst to us, a state of

3:36

emergency had been declared that day

3:39

in New York. So we all

3:41

left that room and entered

3:43

a changed world.

3:56

Oh, it's so good to be in this room again. And

4:02

so I know we all think of Dr.

4:05

Fauci as the nation's doctor, but actually this

4:07

is the official nation's doctor. And

4:16

we have had a number of touch points over the

4:18

last few years, all in pixelated form.

4:22

And this is a human

4:25

being of intelligence and

4:27

integrity and deep care, which is what we

4:29

hope for and long for in our public

4:31

servants. And so I'm

4:34

so glad to have you here. Now,

4:36

this is your second tenure as the Surgeon General. You

4:38

were Surgeon General the 19th

4:40

and the 21st. Are you the first person to do

4:42

it twice?

4:43

I believe I am, actually. OK.

4:46

You're also, I believe, the first

4:48

Surgeon General to take your oath on

4:50

the Bhagavad Gita.

4:51

That's right. Yeah. And

4:55

very importantly in this room, You are

4:57

the first Surgeon General, I suspect, to

4:59

host a podcast.

5:00

That is right. And

5:03

it's a good one. It's called House Calls.

5:05

And it's a wonderful mix of reflection

5:07

and conversation and also some brief

5:10

meditations.

5:12

So Vivek and I've been given permission

5:14

to call

5:15

you that. Yes, please do. We are friends. You

5:17

know, Western medicine classically,

5:20

certainly in the century I was born

5:22

in, the 20th,

5:24

was profoundly dedicated to

5:27

curing, which is not always the

5:29

same as healing. You

5:32

speak about your commitment to the art

5:34

of healing. You know, I know

5:36

your grandfather was a farmer in rural India.

5:40

Your parents immigrated from India. Were

5:42

you born in Yorkshire in the UK? I was,

5:45

yes. That's right. You went through Newfoundland.

5:47

You ended up in Miami. That's a really

5:49

interesting trajectory. Your

5:52

father was a doctor, I'm curious about

5:54

in this background

5:57

of your childhood and your family.

6:00

Where do you trace the roots of this care

6:03

that you have, this passion for the

6:05

art of healing?

6:06

Well, I'll just

6:08

say, Chris, just to start, what a joy it is to

6:11

be with you as well, as somebody who's listened

6:13

to on being for many years, long before I met

6:15

you. I'm just such a fan,

6:18

but also a deep admirer of what you do,

6:20

the dialogue you support. And I will

6:22

say also that ending up in Miami, where

6:25

I grew up, is what happens when two

6:28

parents who grew up in the sunny part

6:30

of South India, spent two

6:32

years in Newfoundland in the icy

6:34

cold. What happens is they moved

6:36

to Miami, so that is where I grew up. But

6:39

my interest in healing

6:42

really comes from my parents, because

6:44

when I was growing up in Miami, they

6:46

had started a medical clinic there, and

6:49

it was just the two of them. My father's seeing

6:51

patients, my mother also

6:53

caring for patients in her own way and

6:55

helping run the clinic, And I spent

6:58

afternoons and weekends there,

7:00

watching patients come and go greeting them,

7:03

and seeing people come in looking anxious and

7:05

worried, and seeing them leave

7:07

feeling less so, knowing that they had a partner

7:09

in their healing. And that word

7:12

healing is so important, I'm so

7:14

glad you underscored it, because it is different from

7:16

fixing. In order to

7:18

heal, to me healing is about

7:21

making whole.

7:22

And to be a healer, you

7:24

have to be able to listen,

7:26

to learn and to love. And

7:29

I saw those three forces at work

7:31

in my parents and how they cared for

7:34

their patients. So that's what got me

7:36

interested in the process of healing.

7:38

But I also saw that when you help people heal,

7:40

as my parents did, you also

7:42

built these beautiful relationships with

7:44

them. And I saw my parents, two immigrants

7:47

who came to this country not knowing anyone,

7:50

not really having any connections

7:52

or supports, they built a community

7:55

through their service and those

7:57

relationships were really beautiful. they inspired me

7:59

ultimately.

8:00

to become a doctor. I

8:03

so appreciate that connection you

8:07

made between healing and becoming whole.

8:10

I think one of the things

8:12

that has emerged just kind of

8:14

conversation by conversation across

8:17

my 20 years now of

8:19

radio, which then became

8:21

podcasting, is that

8:24

we don't become whole because of all the things we

8:26

have going for us or what our strengths are, that

8:29

actually the wise people I

8:32

have spoken with who

8:34

actually shift the world on its access, it

8:37

is how they have integrated everything,

8:40

their vulnerabilities,

8:42

what went wrong, what failed into

8:45

their wholeness on the other side. Yes,

8:48

and I think that, yes, wholeness

8:50

isn't something we acquire by

8:53

stacking achievements or checking boxes

8:55

or acquiring products or

8:58

consumer goods. You

9:01

know, and I worry about this because I, you know, I have two

9:03

small children, myself there, five and

9:05

six. And I'm thinking often

9:07

about the world that they're growing up in and what is

9:09

that world telling them about who they should be

9:12

and what success is. And

9:14

what I worry about is that right now

9:16

the world tells our kids

9:19

and all of us that to To be successful,

9:21

you need one of three things,

9:23

to be powerful,

9:25

to be famous, or to be rich.

9:28

But we all know people who have all three of

9:30

those, who are wealthy, powerful, and famous,

9:33

and profoundly unhappy, who

9:35

don't feel whole.

9:37

And so I worry that many of our kids

9:39

are being led down a path that

9:41

will not make them whole

9:42

or fulfilled.

9:44

I think to truly feel whole is, it's

9:47

not about acquiring something that we don't have.

9:50

It's about remembering who we fundamentally are.

9:52

When we come into this world, as I see with my own

9:55

kids, and many of you may have seen with other

9:57

young people in your lives,

9:58

We are content.

10:00

And my kids don't care whether

10:02

we have a big house or a small house. They

10:04

don't care about how fancy the clothes are

10:06

that they wear or not. They

10:09

care about finding moments of joy. They

10:12

care about the relationships they have with the

10:14

people around them.

10:16

They observe things,

10:17

whether it's a fleck

10:20

on the wall that wasn't there before or

10:22

whether it's the play of lights as they

10:24

come through the window in the setting sun. And

10:26

they find joy in that, in those day-to-day,

10:29

seemingly ordinary moments. And

10:31

so I do think part of what has challenged

10:34

us right now in this moment is

10:36

that there are a lot of forces around us that have made

10:38

us feel that we are not whole, that we are not enough.

10:41

Right? They tell us, well, we're not good-looking enough,

10:43

we're not smart enough, we're not popular enough, we're

10:46

not wise enough. But part

10:47

of what we have to do is to

10:50

ask ourselves, are those messages

10:53

speaking the truth about who we are? Or

10:56

is that a narrative that's different? And

10:58

often I find that that narrative is driven usually

11:01

by an organization,

11:04

a product, you know, a company that makes products

11:06

or something where they're trying to sell you a service or product, right,

11:08

to make you feel more whole. But

11:11

I think part of healing to me is

11:13

about recognizing what we already have

11:15

inside of us, coming to trust that,

11:17

coming to rely on that, and ultimately coming

11:20

to find fulfillment in who we are.

11:22

And we're also, and

11:24

we are also living with a

11:26

great deal of brokenness and rupture.

11:30

So I think what I want us,

11:32

you know, if we think about, well,

11:35

first of all, I want a name that you

11:37

lost 10 family members to COVID. Is that

11:39

right? In the United States and in India.

11:46

And I've

11:48

been so admiring of how in your role

11:52

you're in workplaces, you're in schools,

11:54

You're with the Council of Mayors, right? with every

11:57

kind of

11:58

institution and community. that we create in this country.

12:02

And you've been so clear that you're interested in how

12:05

we can heal not only from

12:07

COVID, but also from the isolation

12:09

that existed before COVID. These things that

12:12

we just see that much more clearly and

12:14

feel that much more clearly. So

12:18

if we think about the way we're orienting this is,

12:20

you know,

12:21

let's talk about this for the sake of

12:24

how we reach for health and wellness in the world

12:26

ahead. You know, how do you start to characterize

12:28

or diagnose this moment

12:31

we're in and what's behind it? Like, what is the

12:33

core distress that we can

12:35

name in order to grapple with?

12:37

So this is at the heart of

12:39

what I think we have to grapple with

12:41

as a country and really more broadly as a

12:43

global society, which is that there is

12:45

this sense that

12:47

I get when I talk to people all across our

12:50

country that people are feeling worried, they're

12:52

feeling They're feeling

12:54

anxious. They're feeling pessimistic about the future. And

12:57

if you try to understand the reasons for that on the surface,

13:00

people will point to near-term

13:03

trends. They

13:03

might point to something like inflation, or

13:05

they'll point to COVID itself, or they'll

13:08

point to other structural challenges.

13:11

But I actually have come to believe it's something deeper

13:13

that's happening, because even when

13:15

inflation was low, and

13:18

when unemployment remained low, and the

13:20

economy seemed to be doing very well, people still didn't

13:22

feel great, right? Even before

13:24

COVID, before we had a giant pandemic, people

13:26

still weren't feeling great. So there was something deeper

13:29

happening. And one is the

13:31

extraordinary pace of change that we are living

13:33

through.

13:35

And the thing is, everything is changing, right?

13:37

How we communicate with one another, how we think

13:39

about ourselves, how we think about job

13:41

prospects, how we even think about what constitutes

13:43

success. And even good change

13:46

is hard. Yeah. As a good friend

13:48

of mine was, you know, we were sharing

13:50

the other day, you know, his kid graduated from

13:53

school, from high school, and was going to college. And

13:55

he said, this is what I've wanted for so

13:57

many years, my child to do well to be able to go to college.

14:00

I'm

14:00

heartbroken because my child's leaving.

14:02

So good change can be hard. But

14:04

the second force has to do with the information

14:07

environment we're surrounded by, which often

14:09

is profoundly negative. And I think that's in

14:11

part because so much of what we

14:14

see in the news and what gets shared on social

14:16

media stokes our anxiety and our fear. Even

14:19

if we're immersed in it, which we are much more

14:21

so now because information is

14:23

coming at us through so many channels unlike 30 years

14:25

ago, then it can lead to feel that everything

14:28

is broken about the world. The

14:30

third force, though, is our dialogue, which

14:32

is that our ability to talk to one

14:34

another is broken,

14:37

to put it plainly.

14:38

We hesitate to bring

14:40

up issues with other people that we may disagree

14:42

on because we don't know how they'll react. We

14:45

think twice before we post something because

14:47

we're not sure if we're using the right words. And we've

14:50

come to care less about people's intentions

14:52

somehow than about the words they use or

14:55

about the position that they have. But

14:57

the final factor that's really... And now let's

14:59

just say about dialogue, the reason that is so important is

15:02

when we have times of confusion in our

15:04

life when we're uncertain about something, a

15:06

lot of how we work through that is

15:08

we talk it through.

15:10

We listen to what other people say. We ask some questions.

15:13

We process out loud. But

15:15

when we can't dialogue, we can't do that. But

15:18

the fourth and final force I'll mention is

15:20

the one that's at the heart of your question, which is around

15:23

loneliness and isolation, which has been growing.

15:26

If you had told me that loneliness and isolation

15:28

was a challenge, a public health threat,

15:31

if you will, on a scale as big

15:33

as any other public health threat we face, six,

15:35

seven, eight years ago, I would have been skeptical. I was

15:37

like, are you really sure? But I actually

15:39

was educated on this by people all across America

15:42

who, through their own stories, helped me realize

15:44

that loneliness was more than something that I

15:47

had experienced in my own life as a child and

15:49

as an adult. It was more than something I had just seen

15:52

in my patients, but it was something that people all

15:54

across America we're experiencing. You

15:56

know, there are many surveys now which are telling us

15:58

that more than half of Americans feel

16:00

lonely. And the numbers are greatest

16:02

among young people, as it turns out. And

16:05

when people struggle with loneliness, not only is

16:07

it bad for their mental health, increasing their

16:09

risk for depression and anxiety, but it also increases

16:11

their risk for heart disease and premature

16:13

death and so many other physical illnesses. So you

16:15

put all of this together, and

16:19

what you find is a recipe for

16:21

despair. And if we want

16:23

to break this cycle, if

16:25

we want to actually reclaim lives that

16:28

are full of joy, that are fulfilling,

16:31

we have to rebuild fundamentally our connection

16:34

to one another. And that is one of the great challenges

16:36

that we've got to undertake in the years ahead.

16:38

And you know, I think that these

16:43

many faces of despair often

16:45

are

16:48

discussed and kind of

16:51

fretted about under the headline

16:53

of mental health. And I think you and

16:55

I, I think you and I in Zoom a couple of times in

16:57

this last couple of years I've talked about how the irony

17:00

of it, when we use the phrase

17:02

mental health right now, what we actually

17:04

mean is mental distress. We're

17:06

actually, and to the extent that we're talking

17:09

about, generally, I mean, I feel like this

17:11

is true of educational institutions, it's true now,

17:13

actually what we're trying to do is can we come up with a remedy

17:15

just to

17:17

stem the harm to some extent,

17:20

right? And of course, we don't

17:22

wanna think that mental health is just the absence

17:25

of distress. we don't even know how to talk about

17:27

the other side

17:29

beyond just the absence of distress. And

17:31

I think that one thing you're doing with your emphasis

17:34

on loneliness and isolation is

17:36

a way into all that. It doesn't

17:39

describe all of it, but I think you've done so

17:41

much investigation that it really is kind

17:44

of at the heart of it. And

17:47

one thing I know you've said though is also

17:49

that young people don't,

17:50

that that's not a word that you said young people,

17:53

I mean, if you study it statistically,

17:55

feel this, but it's not necessarily

17:57

the first word they reach for.

18:00

So just to kind of break

18:02

that open, what are we talking

18:04

about in terms of what people

18:06

are feeling, but what does this call

18:08

us to collectively? What are the ramifications

18:11

for our life together?

18:12

Well, the

18:16

ramifications to not being connected

18:19

could not be more profound. Because

18:21

we have over thousands of years, we've

18:23

evolved to live

18:25

in connection with one another. That

18:28

seems perhaps a little counterintuitive in

18:30

the current age, where we seem to,

18:32

in modern society, value

18:35

independence, and we define that as not

18:37

meeting other people, not

18:39

needing to rely on anyone else, being able to do everything

18:41

on your own. But that person who,

18:44

thousands of years ago, when we were hunters and gatherers,

18:46

tried to do everything on their own and go it alone, we

18:49

know what happened to that person. That

18:51

person got eaten by a predator, or

18:53

they died from an insufficient food supply.

18:56

We learned over time that it's when we built

18:59

trusted relationships with one another that

19:01

we all did better, that we lived longer,

19:03

that we were safer, we were more fulfilled.

19:07

And the thing is, even though our circumstances are so different

19:09

now,

19:10

fundamentally our nervous systems haven't changed. They're

19:12

the same nervous system.

19:13

They were very similar to where they were thousands of years ago,

19:16

such that when we are separated from one another,

19:18

it actually puts us into a stress

19:20

state. Now, stress in the short

19:22

term, to be clear on this, because to your point about

19:24

mental health, One of the many things we talk about in mental health

19:26

is stress, too. What is that? Stress is

19:28

not necessarily always bad. Short-term stress

19:31

can actually improve your function.

19:33

You think about the stress you might have right before

19:36

a race or before an exam or before asking

19:38

somebody out on a first date. I

19:40

felt all of those stresses. But

19:44

that stress, when it becomes chronic, when

19:47

it's long-term, that's when it becomes destructive.

19:49

And that's why loneliness, I would think of it

19:52

like hunger or thirst. It's a

19:54

signal our body sends us when we're missing something we

19:56

need for survival. And if we respond

19:58

to it by seeking out connection.

20:00

and experiencing it, then we

20:02

are okay. But

20:03

the chronic loneliness is what pushes

20:06

us in a bad direction. Now we talked a little

20:08

bit about some of the health effects of that, right? Increasing

20:10

our risk for anxiety, depression, and physical illness.

20:13

But outside of health, there are also

20:15

really important ramifications for individuals

20:17

in society. We know that when people struggle with

20:20

that sense of disconnection from one another, loneliness,

20:22

when they don't feel like they belong, it actually

20:25

impairs their function in the workplace. It

20:27

reduces productivity, creativity,

20:30

and engagement, and ultimately retention.

20:33

It impacts how students perform in

20:35

school. It impacts our level

20:37

of civic engagement. And think about

20:40

this, in a society, especially a democratic society

20:42

like the United States, we require,

20:44

and not require, but we rely on

20:46

the participation of people in communities to help

20:49

make it better, to advocate, to vote, to

20:52

help and serve. But that suffers

20:54

also when people feel disconnected. And

20:57

finally, just think about the violence that we

20:59

see, like in our communities. Violence

21:03

is, I do not believe the

21:06

innate instinct of people

21:08

when they're in a good state, when they're feeling

21:10

well. Violence is a reaction

21:13

to something. And some people may react

21:15

to loneliness and distress by going inward

21:18

and retreating from everyone else. Others

21:20

may lash out at others. But

21:22

however you look at it, The consequences

21:25

to individuals, organizations, and

21:27

society of loneliness is really profound.

21:30

And that's why I think what we have to do as a

21:32

society is ask ourselves, what has led us here

21:35

to a place where we evolved

21:37

to be connected, yet we feel so disconnected,

21:40

and where some of the technology

21:42

that we were promised would actually help build

21:44

connection and community seems in many

21:46

cases to have led us in the opposite direction.

21:48

Yeah, well, we invested in the technological

21:51

connection, but not the quality

21:53

of that connection.

21:55

Yeah, I mean, so I

21:58

some things I think have

22:00

have been released just in these last weeks

22:02

as I knew I was going to speak to you that are very hard

22:04

that speak to this. I think

22:06

it is so useful though to see

22:09

this as a whole picture,

22:11

right? To see

22:14

mental health and the

22:16

violence in our society as

22:18

public health crises

22:21

with human roots. There

22:23

was a New York Times article just

22:26

the other week where they had profiled

22:30

the signs of crisis in 50 years

22:32

of mass shootings. A

22:35

third of them were from the last decade. And

22:37

they were almost all men. One

22:39

of the things, there's a lot

22:42

of new research also on the terrible state

22:44

of the mental well-being of girls,

22:46

which I'm sure terrifies you as the father

22:49

of a girl. And also what's in all

22:51

of that is that boys struggle in silence.

22:54

But then there is this picture of boys

22:57

and men. here are some of

22:59

the things that

23:01

these people will say. He suffered from severe

23:04

back pain. He

23:06

thought his coworkers were conspiring against him.

23:08

He dropped out of college and lied to his parents

23:11

about it. He had

23:13

intense mood swings and alcohol

23:15

problems. He believed he was straying

23:17

from his faith. He'd been isolating

23:19

himself from his online friends. He was evicted

23:22

from his condominium. He stopped communicating

23:24

with his mother and ex-wife, or his mentor,

23:26

his old boss. Jealous when his girlfriend

23:29

started dating someone else. Depressed, broke,

23:31

isolated, angry,

23:34

had no friends. Distressed,

23:36

his wife had left him. Forced to resign from

23:38

job, hostile to neighbors.

23:41

Needed knee surgery, wife and

23:43

daughter left him.

23:46

The concluding

23:48

line of this was, mass shooters live

23:51

among us, they are us. they are for

23:53

the most part the men and

23:55

boys we know

23:57

which is a really scary way to

23:59

frame but I think to your

24:01

point, what we're talking about is

24:04

human despair.

24:07

And it is actually something we can name

24:09

and work with. If we work with it as

24:11

despair, there's almost like a pathological

24:14

resistance we have in the society to

24:17

naming the underlying

24:19

human root conditions of social

24:21

problems.

24:22

I think there is, and it

24:25

is heartbreaking just to hear those anecdotes

24:27

that you shared. And there is a common

24:29

thread of pain in all

24:32

of those stories. And that pain,

24:34

that despair is what

24:36

we have to grapple with. Because I think for

24:38

too long what we have assumed

24:40

is that dealing with that pain is up to each individual

24:43

and it's irresponsibility.

24:46

We can believe that all we want, but

24:48

the reality tells us something very different, which

24:51

is as social creatures, as communal

24:53

creatures, that we have to

24:55

help heal one another's pain. that

24:58

we have to help support and create the circumstances

25:00

and institutions that allow

25:03

people to heal, that helps prevent that

25:05

pain in the first place. That's our collective

25:07

responsibility to one another. When

25:10

you have a circumstance where we put

25:13

that aside and say it's each person from themself,

25:16

then this is what happens. You have people struggling

25:19

in pain. You have situations

25:21

where people can't come together around

25:24

solutions because they can't

25:26

agree on our common responsibility to one

25:28

another. And I think this to me is one

25:30

of the fundamental issues

25:33

that we need to talk about, is what is our

25:35

responsibility to one another? This

25:38

is a moral question. It's a spiritual

25:40

question that has implications for

25:43

policies and for programs. But it has to

25:45

start at the moral and spiritual

25:47

level. We can

25:49

build the best programs and policies

25:52

in the world. But my belief is

25:54

that none of those will work as well as

25:56

they need to if we are not clear on

25:59

the value.

26:00

that should be guiding us in our

26:02

work.

26:03

If you were to ask people right now,

26:05

what are the values

26:08

that guide us as the United States of America?

26:11

I don't know that you would get a clear, consistent

26:15

list of values. Everyone may have

26:17

their own sense of what that is.

26:19

And one of my beliefs here, Krista, is that

26:22

we can't get clarity on that unless

26:25

we have a conversation as a country

26:27

about that. My belief

26:30

is that we need to be a nation

26:32

that is kind, where

26:34

people take care of one another,

26:36

where people step up for one another because

26:39

they can and because they know that we are all

26:41

better off when we are all, in

26:43

fact, better off. I want

26:45

us to be a nation where

26:47

people are generous with one another, where

26:49

they recognize that there are times all of us are

26:52

going to be in need, where all of us may stumble and

26:54

fall, but we have to help each other

26:56

up. And finally, I think we've got

26:58

to be a nation that

27:01

fundamentally recognizes what strength really

27:03

is. Because

27:04

strength is not just

27:07

about

27:08

how much money we have in the economy

27:11

or about the might of our military. Those

27:13

are important. But our greatest

27:15

source of strength comes

27:18

from, I believe, our fundamental ability

27:20

to give and receive love.

27:22

We don't think about love as a source

27:24

of strength,

27:26

but I find it hard to think

27:28

of any force that is more powerful than

27:31

love, right? And I think we need to

27:33

talk about that more, because

27:35

especially with young boys, and

27:37

I think as the father of both a young girl and a young boy,

27:40

I want my

27:42

son to know that he shouldn't feel ashamed

27:44

to express love,

27:46

to receive love, right? We shouldn't think

27:49

that somehow that that is not becoming of

27:52

a young boy and or not manly

27:54

in some way. of us, men, women, everyone,

27:56

we all have the desire and need

27:59

to give. and

28:00

to receive love. So this has to be

28:03

part of how we redefine strength. Nobody would

28:05

look at

28:07

the sacrifices that a parent

28:09

makes for their child, how they sometimes put themselves

28:11

in harm's way to protect their child

28:13

and say, wow, love is weak.

28:16

Nobody would look at

28:18

the soldier, I remember

28:21

a father, I met a heartbroken

28:23

father whose son had lost his life

28:26

after throwing himself on an IED so

28:28

he could protect his fellow soldiers

28:30

when he was in the theory of war, nobody

28:32

would look at that kind of sacrifice and say, oh,

28:35

that love is weak, right?

28:36

Yet what are we doing to cultivate

28:39

love

28:39

in our society, in our schools,

28:42

in our families? We have

28:44

to give people the permission and the encouragement

28:47

to feel love, to cultivate it, to

28:49

prioritize it. Because

28:51

to me, it's the backbone

28:53

of good policies, good programs, and

28:55

a strong society.

28:56

And it almost sounds

28:59

idealistic, right? We're not used to hearing

29:01

public officials speak this way, but I mean, you and

29:03

I have been in conversation with Richie Davidson,

29:05

who's a neuroscientist, who works on compassion,

29:07

and they're actually taking, you know, teaching

29:10

kindness, cultivating kindness, love and compassion

29:12

in classrooms, as human

29:15

skills that are needed for

29:17

education and formation in the broadest

29:19

possible sense.

29:22

It's something that's important to me also, when I agree

29:24

with you, we have to talk about love as a public good and also

29:27

de-romanticize, I mean, the way love, as

29:29

you say, the way love actually works is

29:31

often, very often in the course of a day, has

29:34

nothing to do with how you feel. It's

29:36

what you do and it's daily giving

29:39

and

29:43

it's what you do sometimes in spite of

29:45

how you feel, but you do it because you care about

29:47

that relationship you're invested in and that relationship.

29:52

I mean, I'd love to keep going on that a little

29:54

bit, So if we think about how you think

29:56

about getting to the other side of

29:58

talking about mental health.

30:00

as something we're putting a band-aid on, just

30:03

to try to minimize distress. How

30:06

do you think about, and you're out in all kinds, you're

30:09

in schools, I mean, how do you think about, what would that look

30:11

like if we oriented

30:15

and got pragmatic

30:18

about formation

30:20

for whole, healed human

30:23

beings? And again, that's not

30:25

to say that we're

30:27

raising people for whom nothing will go wrong,

30:29

because it is true of life that things go wrong all the

30:31

time. So how do they be healed

30:33

and whole and walk through life

30:35

as it is in that way?

30:37

It's a good question. I think that

30:40

one of the most tangible and practical places

30:42

we can start is by rebuilding

30:45

social infrastructure in our country.

30:47

Now, we're used to thinking about infrastructure as

30:50

bridges and roads, and that is part

30:52

of the traditional infrastructure. But there exists

30:54

in communities a social infrastructure

30:57

that consists of the programs, policies,

30:59

and structures that foster healthy

31:01

relationships. And that can be everything

31:04

from how you plan cities

31:06

and towns to allow people to actually interact with

31:08

each other. That has to do with the kind of programs

31:11

you institute in schools, particularly

31:13

around social-emotional learning, to give children a

31:15

foundation for building healthy relationships

31:18

for one another. It has to do with the kind of culture

31:20

and practices you have in the workplace. And

31:23

we have some in ours, others have been developing these

31:25

as well, but practices that allow people

31:27

to get to know one another as human beings and

31:30

not just as skill sets. These

31:32

are some of the many things, and there are of course many

31:35

other initiatives that I've had

31:37

the privilege of visiting in communities from the

31:39

Men's Sheds Program to the High Neighbor Program

31:42

to an incredible group

31:45

of individuals that my team just visited

31:47

in Northwest Indianapolis, people

31:49

who call themselves roving listeners who

31:52

actually go door to door and knock on

31:54

neighbors doors and they don't ask them what

31:56

they need, they ask them what they love what

31:58

brings them joy. and they help

32:01

foster and build connection with their neighbors

32:03

that way. So there's

32:05

a lot we can do to build a social infrastructure

32:07

that's very tangible that includes steps that

32:09

local government, workplaces,

32:12

and schools can take. Chris,

32:15

one last thing I'll say, which is to a point

32:17

you brought up earlier about how we think

32:19

about mental health and despair and are

32:21

we really getting to the root cause of issues. I

32:24

worry that the way we think about mental

32:27

health and talk about it is

32:29

I think that seems almost to be a proxy

32:32

for talking about severe depression and anxiety.

32:34

Yeah. And by extension

32:36

then, we think that all mental health problems

32:39

just require having more psychiatrists

32:41

and therapists and that we would solve

32:43

it.

32:45

Now I do think we need more

32:47

therapists. We need more mental health professionals.

32:49

I've been a big advocate for investing more in that area

32:51

and I'm very proud that President

32:53

Biden has made that a priority as well and there are more investments.

32:57

But I do think that the way that you and I

32:59

are talking about mental health is much broader,

33:02

right? This is actually more in the realm of

33:04

wellbeing, right? Of understanding,

33:08

as I think of it, is

33:09

our tank full, right?

33:12

Our mental health in my mind is the

33:14

fuel that allows us to be and do what

33:16

we do, to show up for our family, for

33:18

our friends, for our workplaces, for our communities.

33:21

And if that tank is empty, you

33:24

know, We may not have a diagnosable mental

33:26

illness, but we won't be functioning

33:28

anywhere near our full capacity. We

33:30

may lapse into sadness,

33:32

into despair, into anger. And

33:35

so this is about more than diagnosable

33:38

mental illness, as important as that is. This is about

33:40

improving our overall level of well-being.

33:42

And this is where social connection is one

33:44

of the most powerful tools that we

33:46

could foster. And it seems

33:49

so simple that just building

33:51

relationships could contribute to those

33:53

outcomes, that we almost don't

33:55

believe it. And

33:58

if I told you, because if I said, and it's pretty

34:01

amazing and it's free

34:03

and if you take it, it will actually

34:06

improve your health. It'll make you feel better.

34:08

It will improve your performance at work.

34:10

It will improve your grades. Everyone

34:12

will be happier. Yeah. You'd be like, hey,

34:15

sign me up. I'll take that tomorrow. It turns

34:17

out that's what social connection is. And

34:20

we just have to make that a priority and

34:23

rebuild, I should say, the social infrastructure in our

34:25

country.

34:52

on being with Christa Tippett is supported

34:54

in part by the John Templeton Foundation funding

34:57

research and catalyzing conversations

34:59

that inspire people with awe and wonder

35:02

discover the latest findings on neuroscience,

35:04

cosmology, and the origins of life

35:07

at templton.org.

35:24

You

35:24

and your wife, Alice

35:27

Chen, who was also a physician, wrote

35:30

this completely prescient article

35:33

in, can this really

35:35

be true in March 2020 in the Atlantic? When

35:39

I read the date, I couldn't really believe that it was

35:41

March 2020. That

35:43

must have been weeks into us understanding

35:45

that we were in a pandemic, right? And

35:48

as lockdown had started. So

35:51

yes, so that thing,

35:53

because

35:54

the idea that what we're talking

35:56

about is organic and elemental

35:59

And in fact,

36:00

A lot of this we know in

36:02

our bodies how to do this, even if we become estranged

36:05

from that knowledge. So one

36:07

of the things you did in this

36:09

article, so you said, in

36:12

the short term, the stress of loneliness

36:14

serves as a natural signal that nudges

36:17

us to seek out social connection, just

36:19

as hunger and thirst remind us to eat

36:22

and drink. But when loneliness

36:24

lasts for a long time, it

36:26

can become harmful by placing us in

36:29

a state of chronic

36:30

stress. And then that has all this

36:32

cascade of physical, mental, emotional,

36:34

and spiritual or blow effects. But you

36:36

also offered four strategies in

36:39

that article that anybody could

36:41

do that kind of

36:43

move us individually towards this

36:46

social reality. Do you remember

36:48

what those were? Okay. I do, I

36:50

do. Share them, please. And I'm also curious if

36:52

you added any sense. Sure.

36:56

And then there are four simple steps. because

36:58

it turns out that because we are hardwired

37:01

for connection, even just a little bit of time

37:03

and a little bit of investment, inhuman

37:05

connection goes a long way toward us

37:07

feeling better. The first is

37:10

to spend 15 minutes a day connecting

37:12

with somebody you

37:13

care about. That

37:14

could be calling them up. It

37:17

could be video conferencing with them. It

37:19

could be sending them a text just to say, hey, I'm

37:21

thinking of you. I just wanted you to know that

37:23

you're on my mind.

37:25

The second... And you said, this is important,

37:27

but you said, communicating with

37:29

people you love other than the people you live

37:31

with. They don't count in this, right?

37:34

Yes. Okay. So,

37:36

and the reason for that is, like

37:39

many people, and I'm

37:41

happy to share some personal stories here later if

37:43

you'd like, but

37:45

we sometimes think that the world of people

37:47

who care about us is a lot smaller

37:49

than it really is. And

37:52

sometimes,

37:54

well, maybe if you'll indulge me, with Holman's quick

37:56

story here, which is when

37:58

I finished my first term as surgeon, in general,

38:00

and finished

38:02

means it ended quite abruptly. And it

38:04

was surprising to me. And what had happened

38:07

during that time is that the time

38:09

I had spent as surgeon general, I made one critical mistake,

38:12

which is that I convinced myself that in order

38:15

to really do well at this job and give everything I

38:17

could, that I just needed to be 100% focused on

38:19

the job, and I neglected

38:22

my relationships. I didn't keep

38:24

in touch with a lot of my friends. Even when I was with family,

38:27

I was distracted on my phone. And

38:30

when suddenly I no

38:32

longer was serving as surgeon general, the

38:34

one community I did have was my community at work. And

38:37

all of a sudden they were gone, right? And

38:39

I felt profoundly alone. I actually

38:41

sort of sunk into this deep sort of abyss

38:44

of loneliness for a long time.

38:46

And I remember seeing a friend once

38:48

on a trip to Boston, and she said to

38:50

me over breakfast, she said, Vivi, do you

38:52

know what your problem is? I said, your problem

38:54

is not that you don't

38:56

have friends. is you're not experiencing

38:58

friendships.

39:00

She said, if you called any one of those people

39:02

who you had lost touch with, they

39:04

would be more than happy to talk to you, much happier

39:06

than you realize. So she said, you

39:09

have to get over your shame and your sense

39:11

of embarrassment at not being in touch and just reach

39:13

out and you'll find

39:15

the people are also hungry for human connection.

39:18

So that's why that 15 minutes with people you

39:21

care about outside of those you live with can be powerful.

39:24

The other three I'll mention quickly. So the second is

39:26

to give people your

39:29

full attention when you talk to them. This

39:31

is something that I have been guilty of not doing

39:34

at many points in my life because

39:36

my hand somehow sneaks into my pocket, takes

39:38

out my phone, and before I know it, I'm refreshing

39:41

my inbox, checking the scores on ESPN,

39:43

and like God knows what else, while I'm catching

39:45

up with a friend who I was looking forward to catching up to

39:48

for so long. Like, where is that coming from? Well,

39:51

it's not just a failure of willpower,

39:53

per se. These devices were designed

39:55

specifically to pull you in and to keep you on them.

39:59

But if you... You can take even one of those conversations,

40:01

that 15 minutes that we talked about each day and just

40:04

give somebody the gift of your full attention.

40:08

Your attention has the power to stretch

40:10

time.

40:11

It can make five minutes feel like 30 minutes. And

40:15

so that's very powerful.

40:16

The third thing that's important to do is

40:18

to find opportunities to serve others.

40:21

Now, this has also been counterintuitive. You might think, if I'm

40:23

lonely, don't I need somebody to help me? Why

40:25

am I helping somebody else? Well,

40:27

it turns out that when we help each other, we

40:31

not only forge a connection with someone else, but we also

40:33

reaffirm to ourselves that

40:35

we have value to bring to the world. And that's

40:38

important because when we struggle with loneliness for a long period

40:40

of time, it erodes our sense

40:42

of self-esteem and self-worth. We

40:45

begin to think we're lonely because we're not likeable,

40:47

and it's our fault somehow. But service

40:50

shortcuts that circuit and

40:52

help us feel more connected to others and ourselves.

40:55

And the fourth and final one is around solitude.

40:58

And this also is counterintuitive, because you might

41:00

think, solitude, if I'm lonely, you'd wear really

41:02

any more time alone. But

41:04

loneliness is not so much about how many people

41:07

you have around you.

41:08

It's about whether

41:10

you feel like you belong. It's about

41:12

whether you truly know your own

41:14

value and feel like you are connected

41:16

to other people. It's about the quality of your relationships

41:19

with others and yourself. Solitude

41:21

is important because it's in moments of solitude

41:24

when we allow the noise around us to settle, that

41:27

we can truly reflect, that

41:29

we can find moments in our life

41:31

to be grateful for. But

41:33

those moments of solitude have become increasingly

41:36

rare because all of the white space in our

41:38

life has been filled, right,

41:41

by our devices, right? Back

41:43

in the day when I was waiting

41:45

for a bus, that's time I would just sit

41:47

down and I would think.

41:48

You were actually waiting. I was actually waiting.

41:50

Yeah. And now,

41:53

if I'm waiting for a bus or waiting for the subway,

41:55

then I'm looking at my phone in between to

41:58

either be efficient and clear. I

42:00

can grab my inbox or to find

42:02

something interesting. So our

42:04

mind is constantly filled and we don't

42:06

have that silence. It is so integral

42:08

to growth. And you might think, well, yeah,

42:10

I could do that, but I feel bored. Boredom

42:12

is not a bad thing. Boredom can be generative

42:15

and creative. So anyway, these four simple

42:17

steps are things that you can do. And that's

42:19

solitude, by the way. It can look different

42:22

for each person. It can

42:24

just be a few minutes. It could be a few minutes sitting

42:26

on your front porch before the day begins. It could

42:28

be a few minutes in nature, a few minutes in prayer,

42:31

a few minutes in meditation, a few minutes

42:33

of listening to music that inspires

42:35

you or stills you. I'll

42:38

tell you for me, one of the things I do toward the end of

42:40

the day

42:41

is I have a list of

42:44

videos and speeches and guided

42:46

meditations that I've collected over the years that

42:49

are sometimes just a couple minutes long, some are longer,

42:51

a half an hour. But I'll usually

42:53

dip into those, you know, every night

42:56

before I go to bed, sometimes even more than one if

42:58

I'm having a particularly tough day. But

43:00

that's part of what is in my toolbox to

43:03

help me reconnect with myself

43:05

and remember what I have to be grateful for. These

43:07

are almost disarmingly simple, these

43:10

four tools I mentioned, but they

43:12

can be very powerful in helping us feel more connected

43:14

to ourselves and others.

43:16

Wonderful. So,

43:21

I was gonna ask you what love has to do with

43:23

public health, but you've answered question already, so

43:27

beautifully.

43:30

If we imagine

43:32

a world that is oriented towards

43:34

human wholeness and mental and emotional

43:37

flourishing, where that is

43:39

part of the formation and education of our

43:41

young, what

43:43

would the surgeon general spend his days doing?

43:50

To both build a world that's oriented around

43:53

healing, around supporting our young, supporting

43:55

everyone, but

43:57

also to maintain that world.

44:00

means that we have to make sure that we're talking

44:02

about it, that we're keeping it

44:05

in our hearts and raising it up as a priority,

44:07

that we're continuing to focus on it, because if we

44:10

take something for granted, it starts to disappear.

44:14

There was a time, perhaps, in parts

44:16

of society where we were far more connected than we

44:18

are now, but I suspect we

44:20

may have taken that for granted and allowed the forces

44:22

of change and technology to sweep in and

44:25

then sweep out many of those connections that we

44:28

had.

44:29

Look, I think that

44:31

for every generation, there

44:34

is a moment where they face a

44:36

moment of existential change,

44:38

where

44:38

there are forces

44:40

that are visited upon society that

44:42

threaten our way of life and

44:44

our way of being. And it's up to that

44:46

generation to figure out how to respond.

44:50

To me, this is that moment.

44:52

And we are those people

44:55

who have to take it upon ourselves to stitch

44:57

together the social fabric

45:00

of our country once again, because it is the

45:02

foundation on which we build everything else. If

45:05

you want effective policy to address

45:07

climate change, if you want effective policy

45:10

that ensures that we have more

45:12

support for people so they can

45:14

be with their families when they are ill, if

45:16

you want effective policies to help strengthen

45:19

education in our schools,

45:22

you need social connection

45:23

because it is only when people care about and are

45:26

vested in one another that they

45:28

advocate together, that they move together in the

45:30

same direction, recognizing

45:32

that a solution to someone's problem, even

45:34

if it's not my problem, is a solution

45:37

that we all need because we are one

45:39

people

45:40

and we are united. And

45:42

so how do we build that broader movement?

45:45

Well,

45:45

it starts with the actions that we take

45:48

in our day-to-day lives. How

45:50

do we choose to treat other people? Is

45:53

it with reflex indignation?

45:55

difficult to understand

45:58

is hard work before is How

46:01

do we prioritize relationships in

46:03

our own life, with our attention

46:06

as well as with our time? Do

46:08

we choose to speak up for other

46:10

people in the public square, even if their

46:12

concerns aren't the same as ours, but because

46:15

we care about them? And

46:17

do we choose to support leaders who reflect

46:19

our values?

46:21

These are the decisions we can make

46:24

as individuals that can shape the world

46:26

that we live in and world that our children

46:29

inherit.

46:30

This is to me very personal because to

46:33

me this is about my children too. Before

46:36

my son was born, six years ago, I still

46:39

very distinctly remember that moment of sitting on the

46:43

bed next to my wife and looking at the pregnancy

46:45

test indicator that indicated

46:48

that we were going to have a child.

46:50

And I was incredibly excited.

46:52

I was just thrilled. I was

46:54

also incredibly scared. Whether

46:57

I'd be able to

46:59

do what this child needed, be the father

47:01

that he needed. But

47:04

what also worried me in the days ahead

47:07

was wondering about what kind of world my

47:09

son was coming into. Was

47:12

this going to be a world where

47:14

people would be kind to him? Or

47:16

if he stumbled and made a mistake, people

47:18

would forgive him and give him another chance, where

47:20

he would do the same

47:22

for other people, was it

47:24

going to be a world that was driven by and informed

47:27

by the core values of love,

47:29

of kindness and compassion and generosity?

47:31

Or was he going to be in

47:33

a world that was driven by fear, where

47:35

people were pitted against each other, where everyone

47:37

was looking out for themselves?

47:40

I know what kind of world I want for him.

47:42

It's the former. That's the same world that

47:45

I want for all of our children and for all of us.

47:48

But

47:48

that won't happen by itself. It

47:51

will only happen if we make a conscious decision

47:54

that this is the world that we want to live in and

47:57

that fundamentally this is who we are. that

48:00

we are not mean, angry,

48:03

bitter people.

48:05

But in our hearts, we are kind,

48:08

we are good, we are decent. And

48:10

our capacity to love and

48:13

to be generous and to serve has no limit.

48:16

And it's a muscle that the more we use it, the

48:18

stronger it gets. So that's

48:21

what we have to recenter on,

48:23

like in this moment. All fundamental

48:25

change begins with identity, with

48:28

a question of who are we and

48:31

what are our values. And

48:32

so this is a time to get real clear on our

48:34

values. And if we do that, then

48:37

we will be the generation that this time needs, a

48:39

generation not defined by age, but

48:41

really defined by spirit,

48:44

by vision, and by values.

48:46

The generation that years from now people will

48:48

look back on and say,

48:50

that's when things change. That's

48:53

when we turned the corner and built the world

48:55

that all of us deserve. I

48:58

watched a speech you gave to the U.S.

49:01

Council of Mayors, and

49:04

I meant to warn you about this and I didn't,

49:07

but you gave them a little bit of a kind of a benediction,

49:10

kind of a short meditation invitation

49:12

as they went back out into the world. And

49:15

I wondered if you might do that in this room too. We're

49:19

in a room full of audio makers and storytellers

49:21

and podcasters and I

49:24

do think of, well

49:25

first I think of podcasting as a

49:28

new form of radio and a

49:30

new fireside. And

49:33

of course, around the fireside

49:35

from time immemorial, we also told true

49:38

crime stories to each other. It's

49:39

not

49:42

all sweetness and light,

49:45

but it is a human

49:47

space and it's

49:50

a place also where we remind

49:52

ourselves what it means to be human and that we're not alone

49:55

in this. So

49:57

for the

49:58

people...

50:00

in this room as we go out with this craft

50:02

that we have and also for people

50:04

who will listen later. Would you offer just a little

50:06

bit of a reflection, meditation,

50:09

just, you know?

50:10

Sure, sure.

50:14

So I'll share with you something that I do

50:17

in my own life, a

50:20

tool that I reach for when I'm having

50:22

those moments where I feel

50:25

alone or I'm starting to feel the despair

50:27

creeping in. It's very

50:30

simple. It takes about 15 seconds. So

50:32

just raise your right hand and

50:36

place it over your heart and

50:39

close your eyes.

50:42

And I want you to think about

50:44

the people who have loved you

50:46

over the years, the

50:49

people who have been there for you during

50:52

difficult times, to

50:55

have supported you without

50:58

judging you, and

51:01

who stood by your side even when it was hard.

51:06

Think about the people who have celebrated

51:09

your moments of greatest joy with you,

51:12

the people who saw your successes as

51:14

theirs,

51:16

the people who derived such pleasure

51:19

and fulfillment from seeing you happy.

51:25

Feel their love flowing through you, lifting

51:29

you up, brightening

51:32

your mood and

51:34

filling your heart. And

51:38

know that that love is always there,

51:41

even if they're not physically with you, because

51:45

you carry that love in your heart. And

51:49

know that you are and

51:52

always will be worthy of that love.

51:56

It came to you because you

51:58

deserved it. And

52:01

now open your eyes. What

52:07

you felt in that

52:08

brief meditation,

52:11

that was the power of love. That

52:14

is the power of social connection.

52:18

That is our birthright.

52:20

It's who we were designed to be

52:22

and what we were designed to experience. All

52:27

of us, regardless of what walk of life we're

52:30

in,

52:31

we have the ability to shine a light

52:35

on the bright spots,

52:37

whether those are relationships that bring joy

52:40

or movements in our community that are helping

52:43

grow connection.

52:45

It's where we choose to focus our attention.

52:49

It's where we use our power to focus

52:51

the attention of others that

52:53

ultimately determines whether or not we create

52:55

more light in the world

52:57

or more darkness. But

53:00

I just want all of you to know,

53:02

just as I want my own children to know, just

53:05

as I remind myself as well, that

53:08

we are all worthy of love

53:10

and connection. Even

53:12

in those moments where we feel that

53:15

we perhaps aren't. Even those moments

53:17

where we feel like we're the only one who

53:20

might be struggling. The truth is

53:22

we are not alone, right?

53:24

There are others out there who want what we want.

53:27

A world that is more connected, a world

53:30

where we can actually be there for one

53:32

another, a world that's actually powered

53:34

by love. And that is within

53:37

our grasp.

53:38

We only have to see it,

53:40

to name it, and to start taking

53:43

actions in our day-to-day lives

53:46

to build that world and reflect those values.

53:48

And when we do,

53:50

we will experience what one of my mentors in

53:52

medical school told me years ago, which

53:55

is she said, Vivek, when you stand in strength,

53:58

you allow others to... find you

54:01

and every time

54:03

you act out of love, whether

54:05

that's a member of your own family

54:08

or a moment of kindness you express to a stranger,

54:12

you are telling people around you that it's okay

54:14

to give and receive love as well. You're

54:17

inspiring people to be a new

54:20

way

54:21

and to be a new person in the world that constantly

54:23

seems dark. In a world

54:25

that is full of despair,

54:28

small acts of kindness are

54:30

radical acts of defiance, and

54:33

they're the force that we need to ultimately build the world

54:35

that we all need. What

54:38

a joy to be back at OnAir Fest

54:41

and what an honor to bring Vivek

54:43

Murthy with me. Thank you so much, Kristin.

54:45

Thanks, everyone. Vibhik Morthy is the 21st Surgeon General of the United

54:48

States.

55:17

of the United States. He also

55:19

served in this role from 2014 to 2017. He

55:23

hosts the podcast, House Calls

55:25

with Dr. Vivek Murthy, and

55:27

he's the author of Together, The

55:30

Healing Power of Human Connection in

55:32

a Sometimes Lonely World. Special

55:35

thanks this week to Gemma Rose Brown,

55:38

Jenny Mills, Scott Newman, Brooke Johns,

55:40

and Tom Tierney, and the entire

55:42

team at On

55:43

Air Fest.

55:53

The On Being Project is... Chris

55:56

Heagel Lauren Drummerhausen Eddie Gonzalez

55:59

Lillian Voe Lucas Johnson, Suzette

56:01

Burley, Zach Rose, Colleen

56:03

Scheck, Julie Seipel, Gretchen Hahnold,

56:06

Padre Gautuma, Gautam Srikishin,

56:08

April Adamson, Ashley Herr, Amy

56:11

Chatelaine, Romi Neme, Cameron

56:13

Musar, Kayla Edwards, Juliana

56:16

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56:18

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56:21

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56:23

are located on Dakota land. Our

56:26

lovely theme music is provided and composed

56:29

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56:31

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56:34

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56:36

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56:54

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56:57

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