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0:24

I've been following the actor Kerry

0:26

Washington's ethos and evolution

0:29

for a while now, and when I heard that

0:31

she was publishing a memoir, I was

0:33

happy for the chance to draw her out on

0:35

Being style. She played

0:38

the uber-glamorous, tough-as-nails

0:40

Olivia Pope on the Peabody Award-winning

0:43

TV series Scandal. That

0:45

was a quintessentially American character,

0:48

even as it pushed at some cultural norms.

0:51

But Kerry has also brought moral rigor

0:54

to very different kinds of roles, including

0:56

in Little Fires Everywhere, Django

0:59

Unchained, and American Son. I

1:02

was in the audience for that show on Broadway,

1:05

and I was aware of the care and intention

1:07

Kerry personally put into

1:09

bringing a racially mixed audience

1:12

not just into attending, but into

1:14

participating and reflecting together.

1:17

She says to me in this conversation that

1:19

she approaches acting as a devotional

1:22

practice, and that is such

1:24

an interesting way into the high

1:26

drama that is the human

1:29

condition. I'm Krista Tippett,

1:31

and this is On

1:32

Being.

1:39

Kerry Washington's many other film

1:41

and TV credits include Save

1:43

the Last Dance, Ray, and The

1:45

Last King of Scotland. Her new

1:47

memoir, her first book, is Thicker

1:50

Than Water. In it, she explores

1:52

many things about which she's not spoken

1:55

publicly before. She grew up in

1:57

the Bronx with two loving parents,

1:59

and yet

1:59

yet in a home harboring a great

2:02

deal of tension and an important

2:04

secret. I

2:08

would like to just note here

2:11

as we begin a detail that feels important

2:13

that you were born in the middle of the night

2:16

on which the final episode

2:17

of Roots aired. Just

2:21

to place your birth in time in

2:23

a way that was meaningful to your father.

2:26

Was that a story? Did

2:31

he really convince the nursing staff to watch

2:33

in the waiting room with him? He did. He

2:35

really did. This

2:37

is, you know, my dad as I share

2:39

in this book is a wonderful

2:42

storyteller. He's one of the best storytellers

2:44

I've ever been able to witness.

2:47

And I've learned a lot about how to tell a story

2:50

from him. Although I'm really

2:52

good at ruining a joke and he's not. He's

2:54

a great. He's a storyteller and a great joke

2:56

teller. But he was

2:59

so excited about

3:01

that final episode of Roots and he convinced the

3:03

nursing staff. So in the delivery room, it was my

3:05

mom and the doctor,

3:06

her OB.

3:10

But the nurse, luckily

3:12

I was born at 144 in the morning the

3:15

next morning. So they

3:17

were there for the most important parts. But

3:19

in that earlier labor, she was on her own

3:21

with the OB. Yeah. Yeah.

3:25

Well, so perhaps this

3:28

next question won't surprise you, but I am

3:30

curious. I am curious. And

3:32

there's really no overt

3:35

mention of this in this book you've

3:37

written or kind of in other things I read. I'm

3:39

really curious about how you

3:42

would think about the

3:44

religious or spiritual background

3:46

of your childhood. However, however

3:49

you define that now.

3:51

I'm just having a moment because I've

3:54

heard you ask this question to

3:55

so many guests.

3:59

waiting for your amazing guest

4:02

to answer. I'm like, oh, it's me. Okay, so

4:04

one would

4:07

have thought that I would have prepared

4:10

an answer, but I haven't. So, you know,

4:12

I grew up

4:15

going occasionally to an Episcopal

4:18

Church. My mom was

4:20

raised in the Episcopal Church because my grandmother

4:22

was Anglican, Episcopalian, you

4:25

know, from the Caribbean,

4:27

very, you know, Jamaica, so very

4:30

British culture in Jamaica. So the Anglican

4:32

Church, the Episcopal Church, was really important

4:35

to my grandmother. And we

4:37

all, myself and my cousins, my aunts

4:39

and uncles, we went occasionally. There's a church

4:41

that we belong to, St. Andrews Church

4:44

in the Bronx. And we

4:46

didn't go every single

4:48

weekend. We went in

4:50

fits and spurts throughout my childhood. We

4:52

went on important holidays. And that

4:54

was kind of the

4:58

spiritual framework. We also

5:00

said grace at dinner. My dad

5:05

or whoever, if it was a large gathering

5:07

and there was like a more senior member,

5:11

it was offered to that person. But more

5:13

often than not, it was my dad doing grace

5:16

at small meals, big meals didn't matter. And

5:19

that was kind of

5:21

the framework. We weren't a very religious

5:24

household. We weren't a very spiritual

5:26

household, but we followed kind of

5:29

religious culture and

5:31

rules. You know, there wasn't a lot of swearing,

5:33

although there were these exceptions. Like

5:36

even when I was a young child, I mean, I

5:38

know, I would have to look up the exact year, but I

5:40

was definitely not in my double digits yet

5:43

when Whoopi Goldberg did her one woman

5:45

show on Broadway. And I

5:47

was obsessed with this show and

5:49

I memorized it from front to end. And my mother

5:51

used to let me say all the swear words

5:54

because that was art. But

5:57

outside of that, you know, we, you know,

5:59

you don't say the Lord's name in vain and there

6:01

was a lot of cursing and we sort of, we were

6:05

gently mildly religious,

6:07

gently mildly Christian. I

6:09

did however have a godmother

6:12

who, I still do have a godmother,

6:14

my Titi Angela, who

6:16

is a santera. So

6:19

she was a priestess in Santa

6:21

Ria, which is like a

6:23

really beautiful religious

6:25

practice belief system that's kind of

6:27

a combination of Christianity and

6:30

indigenous African traditions.

6:34

And so there was a

6:36

lot of openness and

6:38

kind of open-mindedness

6:41

around what religion looks like and

6:43

is, but it always kind of had a Christian

6:45

lens.

6:47

Well,

6:49

you know, I have come to say, you

6:51

know, that my lens on everything is the human condition.

6:54

And for me, the great spiritual traditions

6:56

are as much as they're asking about what

6:59

is beyond us, right? They're also asking about

7:01

what it means to be human. And

7:05

I really, as I kind of was

7:07

reading you and watching you and delving

7:10

into the body of your work and other interviews you've given,

7:12

it really felt to me like from

7:14

a really early age, and you said

7:16

it different ways. You said it this way in your commencement

7:19

speech at George Washington University in 2013, you

7:22

said, from an early age, I was fascinated

7:24

with people and how we become who we are.

7:28

And it really has started to feel to

7:30

me like that is a thread

7:32

that runs all the way through and that I kind of want to pull

7:35

all the way through this conversation.

7:37

How you've gained wisdom about that and worked

7:40

with that as a human

7:42

being and through living with

7:45

your craft of acting.

7:46

Does

7:47

that make sense to you? Absolutely.

7:51

I love that idea. And

7:54

just to begin in childhood,

7:57

which is that

7:59

soil of a everything that follows. I

8:01

wanna read a little bit from your wonderful

8:03

book, Thicker Than Water, this memoir. And

8:06

to me, like this passage is an

8:08

example of this very

8:11

strange and mysterious thing about

8:14

story, which is that it can

8:16

be when we speak with the greatest vividness and

8:18

honesty out of our own intimate experience

8:21

that we also speak to universals.

8:23

So this feels like this kind of passage

8:25

to me. So I'm gonna read this. When

8:28

people ask if I am the first actor in my

8:30

family, I often joke that I am

8:33

just the first to get paid for it. There

8:35

are no other performing artists in our family

8:38

tree that I know of, but we, my mom, my

8:40

dad and me are a family of performers. Each

8:42

of us has spent a lifetime playing a

8:44

role vital to our shared narrative.

8:48

My role in our performance came naturally because

8:50

I was born into its twists and turns

8:52

and draped in its masks and costumes.

8:55

We three were the picture perfect presentation

8:58

of ourselves as we wanted to be perceived,

9:00

not only by the outside, but by each

9:02

other. We were a fairy tale portrait

9:05

of success. And this was

9:06

the only show I knew. We performed

9:08

it all day long. And for years,

9:11

this script was how we avoided pain,

9:14

messiness and discomfort. I

9:16

mean, that's an astonishing passage because

9:18

it's about you and it's about all of us,

9:21

right? But

9:24

would you say a little bit about

9:26

what was that role you took on

9:28

and what that made you inside as you've

9:31

continued to live into again and work with

9:33

and evolve?

9:36

Wow, what a great

9:38

question. So

9:40

I guess I would

9:43

say the role that I

9:45

was born into was

9:48

a role

9:49

of support.

9:51

It was a supporting character

9:54

in the story of my parents' lives.

9:58

And in a lot of ways, me

10:00

writing Thicker Than

10:02

Water has been my

10:04

attempt to step into

10:07

the

10:07

role of lead character in the

10:09

story of my life.

10:11

And so

10:13

for to be the right

10:15

kind of support in their journey,

10:18

I was always looking to support the

10:20

narrative that held

10:22

them up, that held our family up,

10:25

kind of this idea of black

10:28

middle class success and intelligence.

10:31

And we were a family that purported

10:39

to, and not even purported, we were a

10:41

family that like really enjoyed culture.

10:45

And we held a place

10:47

in the community that was one of

10:49

service and generosity

10:52

and leadership. There's a sense

10:54

of elegance to how my family walks

10:56

through the world. And all

10:58

of those traits were kind of handed

11:00

to me unconsciously. And I danced

11:03

along. And it felt at the same

11:10

time both very right, like I thought

11:12

this is these are our roles, these are our

11:14

proper roles. And

11:16

there is a difference between

11:19

the role and the

11:21

being. So I always knew that it

11:23

was a role. And we felt very

11:25

well cast in these roles, like they were

11:28

right for us. But there was more.

11:30

There was something underneath it, some

11:32

kind of raw humanity

11:35

that was underneath the mask. And that part

11:37

I was more confused about and didn't understand

11:39

as much because to

11:46

me, they almost never took off their masks,

11:48

or they only took them off, you know, late at

11:50

night when they thought I was asleep or in the

11:52

other room and didn't know that I could hear. And

11:56

so I definitely didn't know

11:58

who I was behind my

11:59

my mask. Yeah.

12:02

Yeah. I mean, let's say your parents are

12:04

still married. Is that right? They

12:06

are. They are. 51 years. 51 years.

12:09

And yet that marriage, well, all

12:12

marriages are complex, but it was quite

12:14

a dance and a duel. And

12:16

as you say, you write about, yeah,

12:20

kind of experiencing it in the night.

12:23

I mean, you once you wrote somewhere about

12:26

later that you recognize there was this

12:28

hyperventilating little

12:29

girl who lived within you who was probably

12:32

formed

12:34

in that way, in that time. Is that right?

12:37

Yeah. Yeah. I

12:39

think I

12:41

love letting people know that my parents

12:44

are still married

12:46

and that they are, they

12:48

have a really beautiful relationship.

12:50

You know, they, it

12:53

took a long time for me to learn that

12:55

although it was my whole life, it felt like

12:57

they, you know, when I was a young child in my single

12:59

digits, that it felt like my whole life

13:01

they had been fighting. But even my

13:04

whole life was a small fraction

13:06

of their relationship that

13:08

there were many years before me and there

13:10

were going to be many years after,

13:12

you know, my maturation, my leaving

13:14

that home and that every

13:17

relationship, every marriage has its ebbs

13:19

and flows and its peaks

13:21

and valleys. And you know, they

13:24

are, I think our

13:26

relationship, the three of us is so

13:28

much closer and more intimate

13:31

and beautiful and honest than it's ever been before.

13:33

But I would dare to say that their

13:35

relationship with each other is also

13:38

more intimate and honest and open

13:40

and beautiful than it's ever been before. Yeah.

13:43

I watched the,

13:46

you did an interview with your mother. It

13:49

was a long time ago. Simpson Street

13:51

Production Company, which you created, right?

13:53

Yes. Which is named after

13:56

the street in the South Bronx where she grew

13:58

up. And that was such a, it was really. beautiful to watch

14:01

the interaction between the two of you. And I

14:04

mean she does seem extraordinary,

14:06

Dr. Valerie Washington, a

14:09

professor of education.

14:12

And

14:13

so all of this,

14:16

it's complex the way life

14:18

is complex and the way families are complex and the

14:20

way marriage is complex. And

14:23

there's so much also that's beautiful and redemptive

14:25

about it and none of that cancels each other

14:28

out. I feel like we really bring all of that

14:30

into relief in that way.

14:34

One thing you said about her is that she,

14:36

I mean gosh, the life

14:38

she lived, right? Becoming

14:41

a professor when for

14:43

such a long time,

14:45

perhaps much of her career

14:48

in many of her academic situations, she was the

14:51

only person of color. And

14:54

you said that she was, you know, at once warm

14:56

and reserved. I like that language use

14:58

of elegance because I'm not sure you use that

15:00

word but that absolutely comes through and

15:02

I saw that. I saw her on YouTube

15:05

with you. And you

15:07

said that so she was warm and reserved and

15:10

that perhaps was part of the role

15:13

that was given to her, right? To carry

15:15

what she was carrying. But

15:18

you were never reserved. It doesn't

15:20

sound like that. And my

15:22

poor mother. And that

15:24

helping you into children's theater companies

15:27

was part of her giving you what you needed, I think.

15:30

I think so, you know. But I

15:32

think that was sort of God's sense

15:34

of humor, right? Like she had really learned

15:37

how to be this elegant stoic

15:39

woman. And then she had this child and

15:41

I was like a walking id. I

15:44

just was like one big feeling

15:46

after another. And I'm

15:49

so lucky that because

15:51

she was an educator, because she's such a

15:53

generous spirit, because she

15:56

has been such a

15:58

brilliant devoted mother. her

16:00

instinct was not to say stop having feelings

16:03

or go sit in a corner and shut up.

16:05

Her instinct was to say, let me find a place where

16:07

you can explore all this

16:10

humanity and do it in a way

16:12

that I'm not in charge of having to help you

16:14

navigate that. And so I

16:17

learned to be able to have

16:19

big feelings and be really expressive

16:22

on stage. And I knew that

16:25

it was welcome there and it was rewarded

16:27

there.

16:30

And when you went to the Spence School,

16:32

that also coincided with this becoming

16:35

really part of who you were and I think, didn't you get

16:37

an agent also when you were an object

16:40

in school? I did in that time. Yeah, during

16:42

my years. In middle school at Spence. In middle

16:44

school. And you

16:47

speak of yourself as becoming

16:49

kind of an anthropologist

16:52

and very actively and intentionally

16:55

as you actively and intentionally became

16:58

an actor. Why not such an

17:00

interesting word? And it's so

17:02

interesting to hear how

17:05

that manifested. Yeah.

17:08

Yeah, I guess, you know, I was really

17:11

lucky that my parents

17:13

are so geared toward

17:14

academic success because

17:21

I really have always seen myself

17:23

as

17:23

a learning actor or

17:25

as a student

17:27

actor, the way you talk about like

17:30

a student athlete, right? Like I've always seen

17:32

myself as somebody whose commitment

17:35

to academics was as important

17:38

as my commitment to the arts. And at Spence,

17:40

I was really given room

17:42

for that identity and that

17:45

approach to flourish. Like I remember

17:47

we were studying Hamlet

17:51

while we were doing Hamlet. And

17:54

for my final paper, I was

17:57

allowed to keep a diary as Ophelia

17:59

and so. So I had this diary

18:02

that became more

18:04

and more insane and deconstructed.

18:06

Like I even figured out how to have the handwriting

18:08

look more and more crazy

18:11

as she lost more and more of her

18:13

faculties. And so that

18:16

kind of idea of approaching the work,

18:19

not just in a creative play

18:21

way, but in a way that called

18:24

on my intelligence and my critical thinking

18:27

and my ability

18:29

to do a deep dive

18:33

on larger themes and on

18:35

specific details and to

18:38

really, really excavate the truth

18:40

of a character and of a narrative. That

18:43

started early for me. Yeah,

18:46

I mean, I was just writing down some of the examples

18:49

and there are lots, I mean, you do this with every

18:51

role, but I don't know, even when you were your

18:53

junior year

18:54

at

18:56

George Washington University, you were playing a frog

19:00

and you studied frogs or...

19:02

Yeah, we went to this zoo, which

19:05

is part of the Smithsonian. We went to the

19:07

zoo, myself and another cast mate and we observed,

19:10

we got to meet with the experts

19:12

in the amphibian house and we observed the

19:14

frogs and it served me. I guess, you

19:16

know, I learned early on, like it provided

19:19

me with some physical behavior ticks

19:22

that I could bring with me. There's a thing

19:24

that frogs do with their feet, like a constant

19:26

tapping and a breathing pattern.

19:29

And that specificity

19:30

in detail really grounds

19:32

the work and allows me to kind

19:35

of go deeper to really

19:38

sink in to the role. But

19:40

even, I mean, here's another one. When

19:42

you did this movie called Lift, you actually

19:45

did some shoplifting.

19:47

I did. That's

19:49

the experience for which you later

19:52

in your way

19:52

very subtly without confessing to your

19:54

crime atoned. Yeah.

19:56

I'm sorry.

19:59

I guess I've, you know, when

20:02

I look back now, I think

20:04

what I was chasing was truth. Because

20:08

I grew up in a household where

20:10

on some

20:12

deep level I felt

20:15

or knew that there was some truth

20:18

that I was being protected from or

20:20

some reality that

20:23

was being kept from me. And

20:26

so I think I became like a heat-seeking

20:29

missile for honesty and for

20:31

truth in performance, in life. I

20:34

always wanted my work

20:37

as an actor. I want, not wanted, I always

20:39

want my work as an actor to feel like

20:41

it's full of the truth of

20:43

humanity and as specific as

20:45

possible because those moments

20:48

of vague

20:50

omission or vague disconnection,

20:53

it was terrifying for me as

20:55

a child. Like I didn't know what I didn't

20:57

know, but I just had a sense

20:59

that I didn't know everything I needed to

21:02

know. And that

21:04

dis-ease was, I

21:06

think, part of what

21:08

laid the groundwork for what I hungered

21:11

for in life and in my work.

21:13

I mean, again, what you just

21:15

said, you know, so many of us

21:18

could have our version of that.

21:20

And it's so fascinating the particular way

21:23

and the particular craft into which

21:25

you channeled this. And

21:29

your role as Olivia Pope in

21:31

Scandal was a real breakthrough. I

21:34

mean, it was a breakthrough show itself

21:37

on several levels in terms of

21:40

it was a moment in social media where

21:43

the show was kind of ahead and,

21:46

you know, workplace fashion and women

21:49

in, you know, in the political process,

21:52

all kinds of things. It's also

21:55

pretty unbelievable to

21:57

me to

21:57

take in that at the time

21:59

of the

21:59

premiere.

22:01

You were the first African-American

22:04

woman to star in a network TV drama

22:07

since 1974. 38 years. That is shocking. And

22:10

so I was I think 36 at the time so it

22:16

hadn't happened in my lifetime. So

22:19

I hadn't seen it. That idea of like if

22:22

you don't see it you can't be it. Like I

22:24

wasn't sure if I could be it because

22:26

I hadn't seen it. And

22:29

it was so exciting and

22:32

also terrifying because

22:35

I felt the pressure

22:36

of what

22:38

everybody at the time described

22:41

as a risk. You know the risk of

22:43

putting a black woman at the lead of a network

22:45

drama. And I I knew

22:47

that if we weren't a success that

22:50

it could potentially

22:50

be another 40 years. That's

22:52

heavy before anybody had that

22:54

opportunity. Yeah. Yeah.

22:58

But you know looking back and success it's

23:00

thrilling because we were a success.

23:03

And that wasn't just because we you know

23:05

wasn't like we were such a great show we were success.

23:07

It's also that audiences were ready for it.

23:10

I do think we worked twice as hard

23:12

because we knew what we were up against

23:14

historically and culturally. But

23:17

audiences were ready. People were ready to

23:20

either see somebody that looked like themselves in

23:22

this space and audiences were ready

23:24

to see somebody that wasn't who they were in

23:27

this space. And so we were able

23:29

to pull in audiences that were hungering

23:32

for representation or hungering for inclusion

23:34

and diversity and ride the wave

23:37

of that moment. I'm so grateful

23:40

that our audiences showed up for us

23:42

in that way. And that when

23:44

you look back it was because we

23:46

were success it led to so

23:49

many other shows with Viola Davis and

23:51

Priyanka Chopra and Taraji P. Henson.

23:54

Right. Like suddenly it was no

23:56

longer a risk to put a woman

23:58

of color as the lead. of a network

24:00

drama. And I'm really proud of that.

24:03

Yeah, yeah. That is

24:05

something to be proud of. I mean, that must be incredible

24:07

now. As you say, in hindsight, with back

24:09

and success. To be able to say

24:12

that. I mean, something else that you

24:14

write about, and

24:16

again, this comes back to, this is

24:18

your way of mining what it means to be human

24:21

and what it means to be you, and how

24:23

we become who we are. And you've said that every

24:26

character that comes into your life, you

24:28

learn something about yourself. So how

24:31

would you talk about how you became more Kerry

24:33

Washington as you became

24:35

Olivia Pope?

24:39

Well,

24:41

I think it's so funny. I

24:44

said earlier in the interview that in many

24:46

ways, this time in my life in

24:48

writing this book has

24:51

been my adventure

24:54

in learning to put myself at the

24:56

center of the story. And

24:59

in effect, me being the lead character

25:01

in the drama of my life. And

25:04

I think playing that character

25:07

allowed me to do that because

25:09

I had spent a lot of my career playing

25:12

a supportive

25:12

role.

25:13

I'd played opposite two men who went on

25:15

to win the Oscar for best

25:18

leading performance. You played Edie Amiens

25:20

wife, you'd played Ray Charles as well.

25:23

Yeah, so I really, I had

25:25

sort of maxed out on this

25:27

supporting

25:28

role of like

25:29

really pouring myself into

25:33

uplifting and highlighting and

25:35

amplifying somebody else's performance.

25:38

And in a really beautiful way that I'm super proud

25:40

of and very grateful for. But

25:42

when I stepped into this role on television,

25:45

it was a different kind of responsibility.

25:47

I was now number one on the call sheet and

25:50

the buck stopped with me and I was

25:52

team captain. And so when

25:55

the show ended, I did find

25:57

myself in a place where I had

25:59

learned. to be number

26:01

one. I'd learned to be more of a

26:03

leader, not just as

26:06

a character on the show, but also on set

26:08

in terms of leading our cast and crew. So

26:11

she taught me a lot about that. She

26:14

also taught me a lot about family.

26:17

Olivia Pope. Yes, yes,

26:19

yes. About family and

26:21

about committing to people

26:24

and about chosen family and

26:27

finding the places where you belong. And

26:29

then there was this element

26:32

that I never quite understood

26:34

around the complexity

26:37

with the father role. And I

26:40

struggled with knowing exactly

26:43

what it is the character was trying to tell me about

26:47

my relationship with my father, but

26:49

I feel like that gift came after the show.

26:53

Well, say some more about that. How did that

26:56

come? So this is kind of planted

26:58

in you, but then it continues to develop even

27:00

after the role has ended. Is that what you mean? Yeah,

27:03

I guess I have in the notes of my scripts,

27:05

I have all these annotations when I'm working on scenes.

27:08

It's like, what is the theme

27:10

that's being explored here about the father?

27:12

What are the questions about the father? Why am

27:15

I asked to put my father's needs

27:17

before my own? Why is my father's truth

27:22

trying to override my own? Right? There were

27:25

all of these dilemmas.

27:27

And I couldn't quite,

27:30

as I often can, I couldn't quite

27:32

understand why

27:34

those questions were being asked

27:37

of me, Carrie. But when the

27:39

show ended, and my

27:41

parents gave me some information about

27:44

myself and my relationship with my dad,

27:46

I suddenly realized

27:48

that there were these themes that needed to be explored.

27:52

So you're saying that something

27:54

in you intuited,

27:57

so you could not have

27:59

that

27:59

answer you were

27:59

searching for, but you knew

28:02

there was something you didn't know.

28:03

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

28:05

That's right. So

28:07

do you want to say why that was? Yes, yes,

28:09

okay. Well,

28:12

let me say first, though, that I think one of the gifts

28:14

of getting this new information was that

28:17

I felt like I

28:20

feel like I've been able to heal

28:22

more of my relationship with my intuition

28:26

and my knowingness, right?

28:28

Because I had these vague notions that

28:30

something was being kept from me, that I didn't know the

28:32

full truth, that there was some complexity to the relationships

28:36

that I was being protected from. I never

28:38

knew what it was, and everyone around me was acting

28:41

like that wasn't true. And

28:43

so when it was confirmed

28:46

that there was a big reveal, that

28:48

there was information that was being kept from

28:50

me, I felt

28:52

empowered. I felt like I was being

28:55

given a pathway back to my knowingness

28:58

and back to my instincts. So my

29:00

parents, I guess over

29:02

five years ago now, they sat me down.

29:04

They texted me and told me that they needed to talk to me.

29:07

And I think this was, was this right that

29:09

you got this text and you had just finished

29:11

filming the last scene? We,

29:13

it wasn't right. We had just finished,

29:16

it was, was about a month

29:19

after. It was about a month after. And

29:23

I got this text and I went over to see

29:25

my parents, because that's not really the language

29:27

of our family. We don't sit down and have serious

29:30

talks often. And they

29:34

informed me for the first time, I was about,

29:36

I think I was just over 40, that

29:39

my dad is not my biological

29:42

father.

29:43

And it was

29:46

both shocking and also,

29:51

and also it somewhat crystallized

29:55

some sensibility that I had,

29:57

but could never really articulate or

29:59

understand.

29:59

understand or know.

30:03

A relief in a sense of

30:06

knowing that you were right, that there

30:09

was at least that there was something. That there

30:11

was something. Yes. Yes. There

30:13

was a sense of relief and extreme curiosity,

30:16

like profound curiosity and

30:19

excitement also. And

30:22

then, you know, there was there was also then

30:24

a sense of betrayal and a sense

30:26

of and there was some anger and some sadness

30:28

and disappointment. But

30:31

all of that, you know, it's been kind of framed

30:34

by this curiosity and

30:37

gratitude to be in

30:39

truth. Finally.

30:49

Support

30:53

for On Being

30:57

with Krista

31:02

Tippett is provided

31:06

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31:10

Support for On Being with Krista Tippett comes from the Fetzer Institute.

31:13

Fetzer supports a movement of organizations

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31:34

Something I'd like to talk

31:35

to you about. I

31:37

don't interview for On Being

31:40

many people who are

31:42

incredibly famous. Right. I

31:44

mean, we're really low. I go I

31:47

go light on celebrity.

31:49

And there are many reasons for that. But part

31:51

of it's just that people who are celebrities

31:54

get interviewed a lot. So I try

31:56

to have this space where we're.

31:59

doing something different.

32:02

So in this sense, and

32:04

you're somebody I've followed

32:07

and I've met you and there's

32:10

this thoughtfulness that

32:12

I'm really excited to pursue, but I

32:15

would like to ask you about this

32:17

matter of

32:19

fame and celebrity because you write about this in

32:21

the book too and it's something that I feel

32:23

like we hardly know how to talk about

32:25

culturally, even though

32:27

almost to a one we participate in

32:31

this cultural drama of celebrity, like

32:33

we co-create it. And

32:37

I also, I'm curious because as I say,

32:39

I feel like you're a student of the human condition as

32:42

much as an actor and you happen to be,

32:44

have become a celebrity.

32:47

So

32:48

are you willing to talk about this a little bit?

32:51

You know, there is this, and like, you know,

32:53

so for me, I have this minuscule

32:57

experience of this, right? In

33:00

my house, you're super famous. Okay, all

33:03

right. Okay. But you

33:05

know, when people know me, it's

33:07

probably my voice that they know. And

33:10

even so, when I get recognized

33:12

kind of out of the blue, I find it

33:14

really jarring because

33:17

also, you know, there's something weirdly

33:19

dehumanizing about it because they feel

33:22

intimate with you, you know, I often,

33:24

people don't tell you their name, they know your name, but

33:26

it has occurred to me as I've had that just

33:28

tiny echo of an experience you've had that

33:31

how jarring it would be for it to be your face

33:34

that is known. And you

33:36

actually tell this really heartbreaking

33:39

story of

33:42

getting an abortion. How old were you when

33:45

that happened with a made up name? Yes,

33:49

I was in my 20s, right?

33:53

Yeah. And you're

33:55

there in the room, you're not

33:57

there with your real name understandably. And

34:00

the nurse tells you

34:02

that you look like a movie star and

34:05

she says your real name. And you wrote

34:07

that girl from the movies,

34:10

that girl from the magazines, it was my

34:12

name, but the version she was calling

34:15

out had nothing to do with me. And so in

34:17

that moment, I didn't know who I was or

34:19

where I stood. I only know

34:22

that my name belonged to public

34:24

spaces in a way that made privacy

34:26

unavailable to me.

34:30

Hmm. Yeah.

34:36

I think it's one of the things that I

34:39

felt really drew me.

34:43

Oh, I don't know if I'm

34:44

allowed to talk about this because of the strike.

34:47

Oh. I

34:49

know. And let me think about how I can do this.

34:51

Yeah.

34:54

Actually, it's funny. This theme

34:57

of loss of privacy has come up

35:00

in my work at different times.

35:05

And I think

35:07

one of the reasons why it was important for me to tell

35:10

that story in this work

35:13

is because our right to

35:15

privacy is so under

35:18

attack

35:18

in this larger way as women.

35:21

In general? Yes, our right to our bodies.

35:26

Our right to privacy and information.

35:28

Like our right to privacy is

35:31

dangerously under attack. And

35:34

it's something I think we all need to be

35:36

thinking about. How important it

35:38

is that our lives belong to

35:41

us and that we be given the space

35:43

and dignity to make choices that

35:46

are right for us and

35:48

that are nobody else's business. Which

35:50

feels, it feels like a contradiction

35:53

to say that as I write it in a book that's going

35:55

out into the world. But it's

35:57

to say that. That

36:00

was one of those moments where I understood

36:02

the value of something because

36:04

I was losing it.

36:06

Yeah. And you also are

36:09

really honest

36:10

about

36:14

this irony on the one

36:16

hand you're playing Olivia Pope,

36:19

who is flawless. Like flawless

36:23

in her physical being and everything

36:26

that wraps around her is flawless.

36:30

And then

36:32

at the same time,

36:35

you

36:35

know, you're losing your anonymity

36:38

and you're becoming more self-conscious.

36:41

You describe experiences of becoming more

36:43

self-conscious about how your body looks

36:46

and the way it's presented and projected

36:48

after you've had a public appearance,

36:50

after images have been published.

36:53

And I just think about that hyperventilating

36:56

little girl because

36:58

she was still inside you. And

37:01

just what a,

37:03

this experience that

37:05

you have is part of

37:07

our life together also. I

37:11

just don't know. I just kind of want to name

37:13

that and I don't know if there's anything else you would

37:15

want to say about it. It's

37:17

interesting. For me,

37:19

this is a very

37:23

different moment for me. I've

37:25

never done a series of interviews

37:28

where the topic of the conversation

37:30

is a story that is

37:32

my story. I'm very

37:34

accustomed to talking about a movie

37:37

or a television show or a play

37:40

and to unpack that narrative and

37:42

pull on the threads and the themes because

37:45

I may feel aligned with them,

37:47

but it's not exactly me. This

37:50

moment is really different because

37:52

I'm talking about me and

37:55

it is a part of fame

37:57

that I have really rejected. I

38:00

have been so careful to maintain

38:02

my privacy because

38:05

I've had moments like when I had

38:07

my abortion or I had

38:10

a very public engagement that ended. And

38:12

I found myself unable

38:14

to control the flow

38:16

of information. And so I thought, okay, going

38:19

forward in my life, I really want

38:22

to make sure that I'm keeping

38:25

my private life private. I

38:27

feel like what I'm saying is that as you open

38:30

up the fullness of yourself, you're

38:32

also reflecting on

38:35

this weird thing that has

38:37

come with the particular gifts

38:41

and profession that

38:43

are yours. And yet,

38:45

as I say, it's something that our culture

38:48

that we all partake in. It's so

38:50

true. It's funny because I talk about how

38:52

at first for me, acting became

38:55

my love at first because I got to be other

38:57

people because I could escape

39:00

myself. I could escape my feelings of

39:02

loneliness, my feelings of disconnection,

39:04

my feelings of identity confusion.

39:08

But then as I progressed through

39:10

my career, I realized

39:12

that acting was actually a safe place

39:14

to reveal myself because I could reveal

39:17

some of my emotional truths and my beliefs

39:19

and my struggles.

39:22

I could reveal them behind the mask

39:24

of a character. I could speak my

39:26

truth and you thought that it was the truth of the

39:28

character, even though it was my truth coming

39:31

through her. And so then this feels

39:33

almost like the third evolutionary

39:36

phase in

39:38

my evolution of my relationship with myself

39:41

as an actor, that I first came to the

39:43

characters to lose myself. I

39:45

then came to the characters to express

39:47

myself. And now I am expressing

39:50

myself and my relationship

39:52

with the characters. But I'm truly

39:55

without the mask expressing

39:57

myself. And I

39:59

didn't. come to acting to do that,

40:02

that feels like a byproduct of celebrity,

40:04

that I even have the opportunity to do

40:07

it. Now that I know my story,

40:09

I'm less afraid

40:12

to step into this role

40:15

of being in the public eye as myself.

40:18

Right. And I

40:22

do kind of feel like

40:24

this intentionality

40:26

that I see that runs all the way through you as

40:29

a human being from a very young age and

40:31

that you brought to acting also

40:33

has equipped you, right, to get to

40:35

this point so that where

40:37

this celebrity thing

40:40

might, the fame, you know,

40:42

can be so dangerous for, and

40:45

you know, you talk about, and I don't know if you've talked

40:47

about this before, you write about, you know, issues with

40:49

food and exercise and, you

40:52

know, that this can really be dangerous

40:54

for people, but you've really

40:56

lived your way into this place.

40:58

I

40:59

mean, you

41:00

know, you've even said, as

41:02

you study a character, you take on, you

41:04

actually try to take on their good habits

41:07

and make them your own. And you wrote somewhere

41:10

one role at a time. They were saving

41:12

me. That's just so fascinating to

41:14

hear about. Yeah, because I

41:16

felt so, I felt

41:19

like I didn't have healthy boundaries.

41:21

I know that's such a buzzword now, but I

41:24

didn't have enough

41:26

sensibility around what were

41:28

the structures and disciplines that were right for

41:31

me. I didn't feel empowered

41:33

to know necessarily where I began

41:36

and somebody else ended because I was

41:38

always in this sort of people pleasing perfectionism

41:41

wanting to be who somebody else needed me

41:43

to be. But a character

41:45

became something to devote myself to

41:48

my acting was like a devotional

41:50

practice. I am willing to submit to

41:55

the structures and disciplines of this

41:57

narrative, this role to get

42:00

to the best possible performance, the

42:02

best possible truth. So I could wake

42:04

up every morning and run when

42:06

I was doing a movie playing a shoplifter where

42:08

I had to run for the last 10 minutes

42:11

of the movie and I knew that that's what was required

42:13

of me of the role. But when the movie ended,

42:16

I wasn't enough. I didn't feel like I

42:18

was enough of a reason to wake up and run. I

42:21

needed these characters to inspire

42:23

me to move toward goodness,

42:26

greatness, excellence, purpose, maybe

42:29

is the right word. It's funny because

42:31

that's

42:32

the part that was missing when you asked about

42:35

my upbringing and where spirituality

42:38

fits into it. It

42:40

was actually my relationship

42:43

with food and with my body. That

42:46

was the first thing that got me on my knees.

42:49

Like my first experience with real prayer,

42:53

like really begging some

42:55

power greater than me to help

42:58

me out of a situation that felt

43:00

bigger than me. My first

43:02

experience with that was around food because

43:06

I felt so utterly

43:08

powerless to make loving

43:10

decisions and to not to

43:12

really not use food and

43:15

exercise as a weapon. And

43:17

so that was my first

43:19

intimate relationship with

43:21

spirit was part

43:23

of my recovery around

43:26

food and exercise and

43:28

body dysmorphia.

43:31

Thank you for that, for offering that.

43:33

I

43:36

don't wanna finish before we talk

43:38

about

43:39

other kinds of roles you've had that

43:41

feel really important to me in terms

43:44

of how you panel

43:46

and also invite the

43:49

human condition through acting and

43:51

how you've evolved as a person, like who Kerry

43:53

Washington is in her fullness. So

43:55

of course, there's little fires everywhere.

43:59

There's Django unchained. And

44:01

there's American Sun,

44:04

which I was so fortunate

44:06

to see you play on Broadway,

44:08

which also became a Netflix show.

44:11

And I just want to give a little synopsis.

44:15

And just for people who aren't familiar with it,

44:18

I mean, now, when was that that

44:20

that started on Broadway? What

44:23

year? It was pre-pandemic. It was pre-pandemic.

44:25

It was right after scandal. So

44:29

I want to say, oh, gosh, I

44:32

don't know the year. Maybe 19? Yeah,

44:35

it may have been 2019. Those

44:37

twenty eight years that now feel

44:39

like ancient history. So, yeah,

44:41

and so, right, right. It was right after

44:44

scandal. And there you are on stage

44:47

for all but three minutes of an hour and a half wearing

44:49

jeans. I don't I could I didn't

44:51

see that you were wearing makeup. It

44:54

could not have been a different character. It's

44:56

at a Miami police station. It

44:59

says on a day this coming June,

45:02

your black son Jamal has not come

45:04

home. You know vaguely that there's been some

45:06

incident with the police. It's a

45:08

black mother and a white father and a

45:11

black policeman and a white policeman. You are

45:13

that mother and center point. Kendra,

45:16

tell me, I mean, that same question

45:18

I asked you about what what did you learn from

45:20

Olivia Pope about being Kerry Washington?

45:23

What did you learn from Kendra? What did she

45:24

teach you? You

45:28

know,

45:29

when I was doing

45:32

those amazing seven seasons

45:34

of television in the course

45:36

of that time, I in my

45:40

off season, like in the couple of months

45:42

off that I had every year, I began

45:45

to build my own family. I

45:47

got married during one hiatus. I

45:50

had gave birth to two children

45:52

during different hiatus is all

45:55

during the course of that show. But

45:58

the character never. became

46:00

a mother. And that

46:02

was a conscious decision on the part of our showrunner,

46:05

Shonda Rhimes. And it was one that

46:07

I struggled with because, you know,

46:10

my body was changing as

46:12

I was carrying another life, building

46:15

a brain and limbs. And

46:17

I felt the pressure to remain as you

46:19

described her, flawless. And, and

46:22

I, I, there was this really

46:24

challenging tension between who I

46:27

was in real life and who the character, who

46:29

I felt the character needed to be. But

46:31

Shonda, it was important to Shonda

46:34

that that character not become a mother. In fact,

46:36

I had the first on

46:39

camera abortion

46:40

procedure

46:41

as part of in the life of our show, because

46:45

my character was so committed to not being

46:47

a parent. So when

46:50

the show ended, I found myself

46:53

really gravitating toward material

46:56

where I could explore

46:57

the vulnerability

46:58

of motherhood. Because

47:00

what I understood was that that

47:03

character was a fixer. She

47:05

was, she

47:07

was the most powerful person in almost every

47:10

room. And there is an inherent

47:12

vulnerability in being the parent

47:15

of a black child that you cannot

47:18

escape. So she would have been

47:20

less of a superhero if she

47:22

had become the mother of a black

47:24

child. And I say

47:27

particularly not a black mother, because I've had this

47:29

conversation with white women who have adopted

47:31

black children, right? There is, it's a specificity

47:34

around raising a black child,

47:37

and the powerlessness that you

47:39

feel up against these systems that

47:42

are created to limit and

47:44

destroy your child. And

47:48

so it was a real gift for

47:50

me to be able to take on a play

47:53

like American Son, where I

47:55

could really put myself on stage and

47:58

swing the pendulum in the opposite direction. not

48:00

be the most powerful person in the room, actually

48:02

be the person with the least amount of power

48:05

and agency, and to

48:07

embody all of the vulnerabilities

48:10

of what it means to parent a black child,

48:12

to step into the worst

48:15

nightmare of what it means to be the mother

48:17

of a black child, and even to explore

48:19

the other side of what

48:22

it's possible an interracial relationship

48:24

might be like. On the television show, I was

48:26

living this fantasy of a white

48:28

man that loved her so much he literally

48:31

created an imaginary war to save

48:33

her. She was Helen of Troy. And

48:36

was the most powerful man in the world, by the

48:38

way. Yes, exactly. But

48:40

in this play, this interracial

48:43

relationship was not the fantasy.

48:45

It wasn't the honeymoon. It

48:47

was filled with all the complexity of

48:50

what might not go right. Where

48:52

might you not be speaking the same language?

48:55

And where might your cultural misunderstandings

48:58

rub up against each other so much that it leads

49:00

to the destruction of a family? So

49:03

it was really exciting for me

49:05

to get to explore the opposition,

49:08

the underbelly, kind of the uncharted

49:10

territory of what

49:12

it could mean to be in an interracial

49:14

relationship and to parent a black child. But

49:17

parenthood in general is something that

49:20

once I had more time and could

49:22

bring all of the experience

49:25

I was learning or the

49:27

feelings I was having as a mother into my work,

49:29

I really leapt at that opportunity. Well,

49:32

I mean, just that word, fixer, right?

49:35

I mean, the thing that you learn when

49:37

you become a parent is there

49:39

is no fixing, right?

49:40

There's a lot of witnessing

49:43

and feeling like a failure. And

49:47

wondering how you could have done that better. Yes,

49:50

there's a lot of mending and growing

49:53

and learning, compromising.

49:57

Fixing is just not in the vocabulary

49:59

of any. just to start with that.

50:02

I mean, I will say, you know, something

50:04

that really moved me in that

50:08

Broadway theater was, first

50:12

of all, it was,

50:13

you know, the play is intense

50:17

and not

50:18

funny, but

50:21

there was humor, right? There

50:24

was, right?

50:26

And something that was really, and I can't

50:28

remember if I said this to you when

50:31

we met briefly, but,

50:33

you know, it was a really racially mixed

50:36

audience and people

50:39

laughed at different things. And what

50:41

I also noticed is that

50:43

people would then wonder if they should have laughed

50:48

differently, right? The different kinds of

50:50

identities in the room. And

50:52

you,

50:54

what I learned from you was that you

50:56

had so like,

50:58

so a lot of your preparation

51:00

for this particular role was also just

51:03

really considering the experience of the

51:05

audience and creating

51:07

resources and experiences to draw

51:10

that out.

51:12

Yes, we, it was the first time

51:15

in the history of Playbill that they allowed

51:17

us to put a discussion guide

51:20

into the program so that every person

51:23

who came to the play had

51:25

some framework and some resources

51:28

and some prompts and ways

51:31

to learn more and grow from

51:33

what they saw. Because originally we

51:36

had created this discussion guide and

51:38

resource list to just place on a table

51:40

in the back of the theater for when people were leaving

51:42

the show. But people were

51:45

so shell-shocked

51:47

at the end of the play, just like

51:50

I would watch audiences stumble

51:52

out of the play and they weren't stopping

51:54

to pick up anything. They were barely breathing.

52:00

wasn't in Playbill in the beginning. Right.

52:02

We thought people will just pick it up as they go out.

52:04

And it'll be great. But people, we

52:06

realized we have to put it in the Playbill because

52:09

when you go home and you're trying to wrap

52:12

your head around what you just watched,

52:14

which everybody shared was part of their experience,

52:17

you're going to pick up your Playbill and say, where

52:19

do I know that actor from? And wait, who directed

52:21

this thing? And who wrote it? And that's

52:24

when I wanted the discussion guide to be in

52:26

their hands. I wanted them to have resources

52:29

and tools and a framework and support

52:31

already in their home so that they

52:34

had some way to process these feelings

52:37

and emotions and thoughts that were coming up

52:39

because of what they just saw. I

52:42

mean, also, Eric Garner's

52:46

mother came to the play. And Philando

52:48

Castile's mother came. And Sandra Bland's

52:50

sister came. And I have to ask. I

52:54

mean, again, this was pre-2020.

52:57

And I just wonder, we've been talking this

52:59

whole time about how much you learn from every role

53:02

you play. And just how

53:04

did that experience kind of flow into these

53:06

years that have come since? How is that with

53:08

you?

53:14

Sometimes

53:17

I think

53:18

I'm just so lucky that

53:20

I get to be used

53:23

as a vessel

53:24

for people to know themselves better

53:27

and to see themselves

53:29

more. And that

53:31

play was

53:33

definitely one of those experiences

53:37

where these mothers of the movement

53:39

and sisters and cousins who had

53:41

lost people to police brutality,

53:45

they felt so seen.

53:49

They felt like the world

53:51

knew them after the tragedy.

53:54

But that

53:56

we

53:57

let them into the hearts

53:59

of these.

53:59

mothers

54:01

to know what it's like before the tragedy

54:03

occurs. Well, you're in that waiting

54:05

room as Kendra was. Yes.

54:09

Right. Yes. That we

54:11

let people into their humanity before

54:13

the loss and that meant

54:16

so much to them. So

54:18

I feel that to me is one of the greatest gifts

54:21

of what I get to do is I feel like I get

54:23

to be used for other

54:25

people to see and know themselves

54:27

more and to know how much they matter. And

54:30

I guess that's why I have so much joy

54:33

and why it's so moving to

54:35

me when people are having

54:38

that experience reading thicker than water

54:40

because I still feel like even

54:42

though I'm not playing a character,

54:44

like I'm seeing that

54:47

my telling my story is

54:49

also allowing people to feel

54:52

more seen and understood. And

54:55

really it feels like that's the role of art,

54:57

right? Whether it's like a literary

54:59

work of a memoir or whether

55:01

it's music or theater

55:04

or film or television, like it is

55:06

this opportunity for us to become more

55:08

intimate with our own humanity and

55:11

the deep humanity of somebody

55:13

else. And I just feel

55:15

like if there's anything that we need

55:17

in culture right now, it's the

55:20

courage and the willingness to know ourselves

55:22

more and to know each other more and

55:25

to make room for like the

55:27

unconditional acceptance of each

55:29

other's humanity. Not every behavior,

55:31

not every decision. Do we have to sign

55:34

off and approve? But to make space

55:37

for each other's humanity and belonging

55:40

feels like I think so

55:42

much of what we need. Yeah. Yeah.

55:46

So this is a camera metaphor. Okay.

55:49

As we land here, I want to, because

55:51

that's really such an incredible place to get

55:54

to, I want to kind of pull the lens out wide. And

55:58

I think, I feel like you just walked us. here. This

56:00

role, the role that we all are

56:03

given right now of being alive in this time

56:05

that we inhabit. And

56:09

yes, having moved through this pandemic

56:13

and the many ruptures

56:16

that have occurred in these years

56:18

and since that we couldn't have imagined

56:21

a few years ago. And so

56:23

you kind of as a human, as an

56:26

actor, as a mother, in

56:29

your calling as an anthropologist, what

56:32

anthropological questions and

56:34

curiosities are you holding now

56:37

about stepping into

56:39

this time ahead and this

56:41

role that I think of as this calling

56:44

that we all have to kind of stand before

56:46

this world. Yeah,

56:49

that's kind of just a big, messy,

56:52

huge question. But yeah,

56:54

what questions

56:55

are you holding? What curiosities?

57:01

I think this question

57:04

that I didn't even remember was in the commencement

57:07

speech, so I really appreciate you pulling

57:09

that forward. But this question

57:12

of how we become

57:13

who we are is the

57:17

most important one right

57:18

now. Because

57:22

it's the question I think that will allow

57:24

us to have a bit more humility

57:27

around the decisiveness

57:30

of where we can and cannot

57:33

compromise, where

57:35

we are alike and where we are dissimilar.

57:38

If we have the willingness

57:40

to ask ourselves, like, how did I become

57:43

who I am? And how did they

57:45

become who they are? I think

57:47

it allows us all to

57:51

accept more of our messiness

57:54

and to let ourselves be more human

57:56

to understand like we weren't born

57:58

perfect. somebody who

58:01

was dealing with their own trauma tried

58:04

to raise us the best we could. And

58:06

now with our own traumas, we're trying to raise

58:08

somebody else the best we can. And

58:11

to have that kind of gentle

58:13

acceptance of each other that we're just

58:16

like these beings in process doing the

58:18

best we can with the tools we have, I

58:20

think that could give us more space to

58:23

be able to listen to each other, to

58:25

appreciate each other, to be less afraid

58:28

of each other. And

58:30

I think that's where we need to be, operating

58:32

more from

58:33

like the messy humanity

58:36

of each other and

58:38

less from deciding who our enemies

58:41

are and deciding who's

58:43

good and who's bad. Like, you know, we have

58:45

a joke in my family that my favorite genre

58:48

is a villain origin story because

58:51

I just, I love those movies

58:53

where you get to see how the bad

58:55

guys become the bad guys because the truth

58:57

is nobody's born a bad guy. And

59:00

it's all that's got wounded, right? Yes,

59:03

everyone has a wound that leads to,

59:06

I love this book, The Origins of You, that's all

59:08

about these wounds, right? Like we have

59:10

these wounds and they, how

59:13

we process those wounds

59:15

and move forward through them is

59:17

who we are. So

59:20

asking that question, not taking it for granted that

59:22

there are good guys and bad guys, but knowing

59:24

that everybody's good, we're doing the best we can at

59:26

varying degrees, it's really hard to hold onto that

59:28

belief with some of our members of society.

59:32

But, you know, even when I think about people that

59:34

I really,

59:34

really, really have great

59:38

fear and contempt for, former

59:40

presidents that I will not name, I think,

59:43

you know, that person was hurt. That

59:45

person was hurt. That person has survived

59:47

tremendous abuse. How they have metabolized

59:50

it to continue to abuse others, is

59:52

unacceptable, but I have to remember

59:55

where it comes from so that I don't perpetuate

59:57

it.

1:00:00

What an incredible ending

1:00:02

through a beautiful conversation. Carrie,

1:00:04

thank you so much. What a day.

1:00:07

Oh, this is such a pleasure. I mean, even just

1:00:09

you reading the book is such a pleasure.

1:00:11

Really.

1:00:12

I'm so honored. So honored. You

1:00:15

know what? Can I add one more thing that

1:00:17

I'm not sure that I said? Yes. Yes.

1:00:20

I want, I guess I want to say that for

1:00:25

me, this learning

1:00:28

of how I became who I am

1:00:30

has been so important

1:00:32

because

1:00:33

it's helped me connect more deeply

1:00:35

with myself and my intuition and all the things we talked

1:00:37

about. But also in

1:00:41

learning that my parents kept this

1:00:43

secret from me, I was

1:00:45

able to witness more of their humanity, right? Yeah.

1:00:49

Their fear, their fear that

1:00:51

I wouldn't love them unconditionally, that they would

1:00:53

lose me, that I would walk away. And

1:00:56

what it became, what this truth telling

1:00:58

actually became was an opportunity

1:01:01

for me to say to my dad, you

1:01:03

know, every time that I've said, I love you up

1:01:06

until this point, it's been on the condition of

1:01:08

a lie. It's been,

1:01:10

I love you and you've

1:01:13

thought she loves me because she thinks

1:01:15

I'm her dad. Whether you've thought it consciously

1:01:17

or unconsciously. And so

1:01:20

the opportunity of this truth

1:01:22

sharing was that I got to say to my parents,

1:01:26

now you get to see what it's

1:01:28

like for me to love you unconditionally,

1:01:30

that when you told me the truth

1:01:33

and you see that I don't go anywhere, that

1:01:35

I love you more, that I feel closer

1:01:37

to you. Knowing everything. Yes. That

1:01:40

that's the greatest gift that our family

1:01:42

has been given. And so I think that

1:01:45

even when we're afraid to ask the question

1:01:47

of like, how did I become who I am? How

1:01:50

did you become who you are? Even

1:01:53

when we're afraid of it, I think it's

1:01:55

worth taking the deep dive because the

1:01:57

truth can bring us to fear.

1:01:59

something that's even more beautiful

1:02:02

than what we could have imagined. Carrie

1:02:39

Washington is founder of the production

1:02:41

company, Simpson Street. Her

1:02:43

many credits include the television

1:02:46

series, Little Fires Everywhere, the

1:02:48

Broadway play and Netflix film,

1:02:50

American Son, and the film, Django

1:02:53

Unchained. She starred as Olivia

1:02:55

Pope on seven seasons of the hit TV

1:02:58

series, Scandal. Carrie

1:03:00

Washington's memoir is thicker

1:03:02

than water. In

1:03:04

this episode of On Being was produced

1:03:06

with consideration of the ongoing SAG-Astra

1:03:09

strike and with external legal guidance.

1:03:12

In distributing this episode, we attest to

1:03:14

our belief that no statements made involve

1:03:17

promotion of struck work in

1:03:19

violation of the SAG-Astra

1:03:20

strike order.

1:03:24

The On Being

1:03:50

project.

1:03:56

We are located on Dakota Land,

1:03:58

our lovely theme music. is provided and

1:04:01

composed by Zoe Keating. Our

1:04:03

closing music was composed by Gautam

1:04:05

Shrikashin. And the last voice you

1:04:07

hear singing at the end of our show is Cameron

1:04:10

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