0:01

Louise. Is in the run. The valley in your through to

0:03

the prime is go ahead. Louise wanted you. Get

0:05

money net of morning prime minister hi. Rhonda that

0:08

I'm sorry There's a reason the runway know he's high

0:10

salary the reason I mean that and a that. Hi.

0:21

Welcome to Oh God What? Now I'm Dorian Lynskey.

0:23

The worst people you've ever met in your life.

0:26

All seem to be putting themselves forward as candidates

0:28

for Reform Uk. and if reform can't be bothered

0:30

to search their social media history for for horrific

0:32

statements, a lot people are very happy to do

0:35

it for them. Will. Be asking what

0:37

Richard Choices party is actually offering voters

0:39

and how worried the Tory should be.

0:42

And. Then, climate change, nuclear war, or zombies? why

0:44

we so obsessed with how the world could And

0:46

my new book? everything Must go. The stories we

0:48

tell about the End of the World is all

0:50

about that. So for once I get to answer

0:53

questions rather than asking them. And

0:55

in the extra bit for supporters, the

0:57

Netflix movies Scoop tells the story of

0:59

News Nights famously awkward interview with Prince

1:01

Andrew will talk about our own experiences

1:03

with interviewing tricky people. Let's. Meet

1:05

this week's three Rwanda's. Rhonda

1:08

one is author of the Future of Trust

1:10

and host of Jam Tomorrow. Ross Taylor Hi

1:12

Rose Highlight or in a really see knock

1:15

has lost his rag after days of fuss

1:17

about one honey trap plot. Tory mp William

1:19

Brag resigned the Tory whip himself. The got

1:21

going round is the scenic is so weak

1:23

that mps have to sack themselves. What?

1:26

Do you think about how the scandal played

1:28

out and should he have acted sooner and

1:30

you have any sympathy for Rak? I

1:33

do actually am. I don't normally have

1:35

much sympathy and William rak am Burts

1:37

I see what he did and you

1:39

know that they they banal stupidity of

1:41

what he did and the fact that

1:43

forever now he is going to be

1:46

the bloke whenever he does next in

1:48

his life cause he standing out of

1:50

general election he's gonna be that bloke

1:52

who answered somewhat sad send a I've

1:54

gotten caught himself in trouble which is

1:56

not you know a far smaller moral

1:58

failing that many others. The Korean government

2:00

and yet he will always be that man

2:03

and he would always carry it with him.

2:05

You know it's sad that M P could

2:07

be and trapped blackmailed in this way but

2:09

in the context of things other and piece

2:11

of done handing over some phone numbers is

2:14

actually not that bad and lead us and

2:16

score settling going on among Tory mp that

2:18

Jacob Rees Mogg who are angry about sat

2:20

that when he bragged one of the first

2:22

move as can parse Johnson and said as

2:25

all that going on in the in the

2:27

background the most the i feel yeah even

2:29

slightly sorry. For the guy because this is

2:31

his life, now is who he is out. It's

2:33

just. Pathetic. City have been sucked.

2:36

Know? why bother? Some point over, but the

2:39

fact that he's done it himself does that

2:41

then make things look look worse because you

2:43

know. Know. Because that shows that

2:45

he he has some their appreciation. Of what

2:47

he's done, so I think actually that puts him is slightly

2:50

better position to have done it. but it puts Enoch in

2:52

a worse position because you think and we didn't have to

2:54

wait for him to do himself. The out the have you

2:56

noticed as soon as and pretty. Bad snow ready and

2:58

of all the problems that he sizing probably will.

3:00

Iraq is like number ninety nine on the list

3:03

says to any skus or how about what could

3:05

make things worse or best of fussy night to

3:07

seems rather academic. Next

3:09

his political correspondent for the Independent are gonna

3:11

Vote has very polite you been doing some

3:13

profit reporting of the inquiry into the Post

3:16

Office scandal with testimony from Allen Bates the

3:18

man made famous by the or Tv drama

3:20

what Did He Say. Say that

3:22

Mr. Bates was as punchy as ever.

3:24

Ah, he's a great witness. He's and

3:26

very I mean he's been campaigning on

3:28

this issue between three years and he's

3:30

got I had experiences that you know

3:33

he was a sub postmaster. He lost

3:35

his contract with the post office because

3:37

they accused him off an An and

3:39

cracked. A cousin say said he is

3:41

an incredibly good witness. He's done a

3:43

lot of work on this and he

3:45

pulls no punches. Recalled the post office

3:47

and atrocious organization run by said and

3:49

seats that was willing to. Do anything

3:51

and everything to hide the her eyesight he

3:54

failures. He also said that they basically I

3:56

got rid of his contract with the post

3:58

office because they branded him as. On

4:00

manageable because he was refusing to to pay

4:02

back the money they said he owed or

4:04

but today there's been another and session with

4:07

the Post Office inquiry with lot of us

4:09

not to has also been a longstanding advocate

4:11

for addicts into the pace of a scandal

4:13

who is basically been saying that the post

4:16

office was stringing M P's along the whole

4:18

time stats pool of idols was trying to

4:20

keep information about his of is gonna some

4:22

and peace and basically just backing up be

4:24

everything. Allen Bates said that the post office

4:27

was hiding information from M P's from campaigners

4:29

i'm from. Said postmasters the many many years and

4:31

this is a scandal is just not gonna go

4:33

away. For is where the been spotlight remote

4:35

ruff logos they knew they knew when they let

4:38

it happen is that basically? But I do I.

4:40

Did want me to sum up in in just a

4:42

few eyes and nice pass through. Yes, Finally,

4:45

as times' columnists and signs radio hosts

4:47

to their risk in high sugar alert

4:49

government house building is preminger. Great success

4:51

in Rwanda. Your paper revealed that seventy

4:53

percent of the homes in the Kigali

4:55

stateless well above. I'm inclined to subside

4:58

for solemn seekers of be sold Soon

5:00

Local residents I'm on. Remember when this

5:02

was announced and you get told off

5:04

by the actual home office. Food. Dancing

5:06

this game guess when similar problem and when to

5:08

Rwanda in absurd some yoga March of last year

5:11

she posts movies as as the she said we

5:13

been built for asylum seekers on i am he

5:15

wasn't he did so like deep journalism illnesses I

5:17

googled them on I saw that they weren't being

5:19

built for as on because they bring some bill

5:22

Anyway it was a D was literally just a

5:24

to golly housing estates the been planned for a

5:26

long long time. I'm rolling that was already on

5:28

sale and so I tweeted this i'm home office

5:30

for me up and said that's not true just

5:33

take it down and I said in what way

5:35

is not true. And they said well as

5:37

they'll bring them for some seekers and I said I'm going

5:39

to send your link. That. Says you the

5:41

they're on sale if or a people who not a

5:43

songs acres and you can explain to me want to

5:45

go wrong and isn't about me and stops us and

5:48

then suddenly as a story a year later hours of

5:50

slightly wish I'd be more of a fuss about at

5:52

the time spot In a way it's may meet the

5:54

smite positive spin on the story right and is that.

5:57

With. Similar problem and now not and governments.

6:00

That can his seat blaze an extreme.

6:02

Lying didn't quite do anymore. They do

6:04

it seventy percent now, but it was

6:06

just so. It was like so

6:09

post Boris Johnson era. just the Home Secretary

6:11

going to Africa and saying something that was

6:13

brazenly not true was about com. I see

6:15

that that's what they did. None of his

6:18

isn't really famous for my bad. is it

6:20

just another that as a fly. Five million

6:22

seem at the home office is that really hot

6:24

concise They i have a press the millennium say

6:26

you emailed a contacts that you might have a

6:28

now say not make my colleagues but it's very

6:30

frustrating to say you want to comment on something.

6:32

Quickly as he really hot get in touch with them.

6:34

Again touch with the right person Snow other government departments

6:37

hims have. That problem for the non info

6:39

at home office denies. that know press at home

6:41

office does. I have a nice. Of frequently asked

6:43

question then. Is you

6:45

policy working Genesis woman on I speak to them

6:47

very random. I'm a sense the Tv critic was

6:49

gonna do mates as be. Very rarely am so

6:51

small. Be shocked that this needs to have my

6:53

phone number on file. But there we go. Miller

6:55

of us are supposed. To score it wouldn't

6:57

fall for those with a good. Let's

7:04

get started. Reform Uk released in early list

7:06

of it's candidates and revealed a freewheeling approach

7:08

to vetting are you don't do any? and

7:10

let's with the sorted out sixty two candidates

7:12

who dumped in the first two months alone

7:14

after the gruesome social media history was exposed

7:16

when the light of Hope Not Hate and

7:19

a Syndicate whether. It. Was tireless on

7:21

this subject. Among

7:23

the lowlights problematic material coming up are

7:25

people who said Africans have the lowest

7:27

like using the world. Eskenazi Jews are

7:29

a problem. London is Islamic state. All

7:31

Muslims should be forcibly deported. Anyone who

7:33

was settled in the Uk since Nineteen

7:35

Ninety Seven should be forcibly deported. The

7:37

Bbc in the Garden should be banned

7:39

for being subversive. Cove it vaccines are

7:42

crime against humanity. It's David Attenborough Should

7:44

be killed pretty soon. Isn't British? Tommy

7:46

Robinson is a patriot. David like is

7:48

right and meet he says She turned.

7:50

To cannibalism so as to obliterate the

7:52

human race. Which. Is is a

7:54

bold pitch and we against all of those.

7:57

To fix. Some yet my local. The.

8:00

One candidate has all kinds of what

8:02

we could be. Third woke flags in

8:04

her Twitter via so what is going

8:06

on there I don't understand. It

8:08

so it's he was being like

8:10

Woke Reform that plays a very

8:12

small slice of the specializing voted.

8:14

Off on my door and I'm looking forward to having that

8:17

call this. A. Story. And while she does, I

8:19

bet there's quite a lot of, in some

8:21

ways work reform. Because. There isn't a

8:23

month I was in the most fascinating

8:25

bit of the sort of political spectrum

8:27

that we never never really get to

8:29

grips with because it's incoherence is that

8:31

Connor Lib dem Green? The Uk crossover

8:34

inflection points? So I guess the must

8:36

be some of them. It's also like when

8:38

everybody he's Donald Trump. oh no every bit a

8:40

some people accused always have the being. A

8:42

democrat six sleeper agent because.

8:44

And it was the perfect way to

8:47

wipe the Republicans to put him in

8:49

office as Republican times that even though

8:51

he was secretly in, i'm trying to

8:53

scare nasa democrats. I mean as us

8:55

really hated the conservatives. And

8:57

he was slightly delayed. It about reforms prospects may

9:00

be would stand. As a microphone

9:02

concepts. Woman, I just think there's

9:04

no end. Sue how weird people's political opinions on

9:06

this is kind of basic idea of like are

9:08

you on the last doing the right? Are you

9:10

more in the sensor is just really just. The.

9:13

Tip of the iceberg as as the kind

9:15

of the jumble of believes the people have

9:17

that on one level this is now see

9:19

Clang Show. On another level, Reform is getting

9:22

up to fifteen percent in some polls by

9:24

peeling off angry right wing voters, but not

9:26

to swing voters from the tourists. We could

9:28

make a difference between Two Feet and wipe

9:31

out for recess. He likes unhappy crew. So

9:33

is Reform Uk serious party? He was it

9:35

targeting what is it offering them and what

9:37

difference could make in the next election? Roz

9:39

will start with you because you've been doing

9:42

a lot of digging. Into Reform recently

9:44

subpoena. Lot of fun it was. The

9:46

thing is a a season it isn't

9:48

a new policy. Says

9:50

the laces vessel for serology some of the

9:53

you kiffin the brakes it policy but what

9:55

is for hours isn't without. it's cool project

9:57

of leaving the European Union. What policies are

9:59

filling. Yeah that is

10:01

a cool. Problem essentially breaks the party

10:04

was like son a few care

10:06

and reform his grandson of you

10:08

keep his son and. The other

10:10

interesting thing about before we should mention

10:13

is that it's not actually registered as

10:15

a party which helps from transparency for

10:17

transparency point. Of view from that side of things

10:19

with the really didn't lose. It's A it's a

10:21

company is called for directors one of whom

10:23

is Night of Ross. Ah a It is

10:25

not currently a party so that's. Also.

10:28

Important that of mind very popular still

10:30

some some. Models that current

10:32

policies. Now that breaks it

10:34

is done well. That's.

10:36

He Immigration or rather they

10:39

want something called Net Zero

10:41

Immigration. But it's

10:43

confusing because they don't like that Sarah. But.

10:46

They do like that zero immigration see. gotta remember,

10:48

just. A. Different story Net zero immigration presumed he

10:50

means people can com as long as the

10:52

same number of people leave exactly you gotta

10:54

in one. I'm sensing how they could solve

10:56

this problem. You just leave Seattle. Could. Just

10:58

leafs but now at a people could com as long

11:00

as they're highly skilled as well known isolated. We

11:02

are. You want doctors and teachers and so on

11:04

and people who we really were definitely need. And

11:07

so they're also was at as I said

11:09

as he net zero dusk fairly new and

11:12

they're ready leading into it now because they

11:14

saw that it worked to little bit in

11:16

us Oxbridge says at picking up on that

11:18

they've got cats you other policies as well

11:20

we heard about and you want on Monday

11:23

they want to give you tax release of

11:25

use private healthcare because they thinking is if

11:27

he used to private healthcare for people do

11:29

it will relieve pressure on the nhs which

11:31

is a good. Thing or they're

11:33

also promising zero waiting lists. Sera

11:36

Ah, the reassess with Zero on

11:38

the Cs Sera Sera goods. It's

11:41

because nothing was ever change. Everything was

11:43

always stay the same process of said.

11:45

It does look like Net Zero will

11:47

be that big election push in so

11:49

far as we can tell. right?

11:51

A good luck for be appeals to

11:54

the conspiracy theories section of their base

11:56

as well. Yes, as the Angry Motorist,

11:58

that's what they're hoping. Do.

12:00

Some of these posts is misread what reform

12:02

voters actually one we go I'm gonna I'm

12:04

gonna sit of ask sorry about how recent

12:06

piece in the indie am a Bow Ties

12:08

going We other voices working class. Ah,

12:11

the working class looking for tax breaks

12:13

for a private healthcare. We.

12:16

Don't really know is that working as as

12:18

voice of the working class one of the

12:20

reasons so that is that when you do

12:22

surveys of them, it tends to be them

12:24

or middle class members of reform who actually

12:26

sell them in because that's the way says

12:28

I swear, crites backward when the an academic

12:30

study survey also missing took that later and

12:33

which came out last week and he claimed

12:35

that they were basically. Equally distributed across all

12:37

the classes, but. Then that was very

12:39

the people who filled in a survey.

12:41

I think actually that quite then if

12:44

they're not really small state conservatives, a

12:46

lot of them and of them are

12:48

quite attached. The Nhs and civic pride

12:50

and things like that and reform is

12:53

also sometimes misjudges, it's it's supporters. So

12:55

for example they was very anti lockdown.

12:57

Added say that he said we must

12:59

never locked. Down again A

13:01

But. Reformed out his

13:03

receive more often quite keen on Lockdown. Well.

13:06

Known them for with my old He added

13:08

wanna die of over ninety. Yes, yes, and

13:10

are they didn't? You know they didn't They

13:12

didn't see this sort of fair that they

13:14

they weren't affected by school closes know what

13:16

kind of thing? So they were. They were

13:19

quite keen on it, so there is a

13:21

mismatch. Definitely. Every second because

13:23

really interesting concepts and American boots and

13:25

Ninety Seven Seas cool The Radical Sensor

13:27

and it's not the radicals into the

13:29

region cousin Tony Blair towards about he

13:31

was angry alienated white voters who hated

13:33

both the two main parties. was the

13:36

American Bourke. But sort of

13:38

applies in in Britain as was a

13:40

not since centrists. But. They're looking for

13:42

a a a sort of third option

13:44

is that he reform is targeting basically the

13:47

the sort of damn the moon rage

13:49

both Yeah. Exactly Is very much not to

13:51

say about that's. How Care and Pedley at Ipsos

13:53

described them to me when I when I

13:55

talk to him last week. Style: So

13:57

angry They are really really angry.

14:00

The sooner they hate him as they said.

14:02

we can discuss later that you know one

14:04

of these delusions. I think that the Tory

14:06

party hat is that he could if it

14:08

had the right policy, get reform. Voters

14:10

back, but they actually hate

14:12

soon. As they don't like Starmer either,

14:14

but have less reason to dislike Stoner at

14:16

the moment and any given time I'm there

14:19

are so angry that they probably would named

14:21

vote if there was no Reform Party. They.

14:23

Would just be like screw them or computer

14:26

froze isn't currently planning to stand firm,

14:28

fails become Mp several times a long way

14:30

to hate him. He does have a visceral

14:32

with his base only one that is richard

14:34

choice really a leader or seem as he

14:37

literally as at the moment ahead of

14:39

us had of a company like to see

14:41

have any. Political. Skills.

14:44

The. One time Clinton that says made me laugh

14:46

though I can think of is when he recently

14:48

described as choices The chap who looks like a

14:51

hairdresser was of those comments in a why he

14:53

looks like as was pretty weird two dollars leprosy

14:55

has a thirty Have I? really I absolutely I.

14:57

I really really high end exactly. I do this

14:59

so the something kind of us know him in

15:02

Wichita as he's not. He's not up his honey

15:04

thought. top rung politicians eat very much. Smacks of

15:06

the typical reform high level thing which has failed

15:08

conservative. You know reform is made of people who

15:10

have they been better at politics would about careers

15:13

as conservative mps. This is a little. Bit

15:15

of people in the next room policy as

15:17

Youtube was as well as for for Rodgers

15:19

does. For all of this great connection with

15:22

his base I'm not sure as world's most

15:24

I I'm not quite sure who his base

15:26

is a get This is the big mystery

15:28

of reform and breadth of party and you

15:30

can generally were why it should be that

15:32

this consoles you know city boy that is

15:35

fraud is supposedly had. this has been great

15:37

ripple with you know if so where been

15:39

retired plumbers in the North I just I

15:41

just I'm never criminal to get my head

15:43

around us of. I. Expect he will stand

15:45

if he thinks there's a chance that they

15:48

will do well as he does and if

15:50

he doesn't think that's than he will not

15:52

stand and then disavow himself a full responsibility

15:54

for the into a fiasco For think. Now.

15:57

As a said the am lively

15:59

view. The some of the candidates and

16:01

seem to contradict Reform deputy leader been

16:03

have claim that racism no longer exists.

16:05

Disappointing. Now I'm wondering what the logic

16:07

is here. A good choice Says that

16:09

Reform doesn't have the resources the proper

16:11

vetting and it published it's list early

16:13

in the active. Hope that the media

16:15

could help Berlin. Love that I'm not

16:18

do up and columns the I know

16:20

everything in this column is wrong run.

16:22

Been relying on twitter and tell me

16:24

thank you My plan is working person

16:26

that went to get less work together

16:28

see mother. I mean is

16:30

is he so depressing that exposing a

16:32

lot of races, crackpots, and connecting them

16:34

see the Reform name won't hurt the

16:37

party's reputation as long as he been

16:39

them immediately. I

16:41

mean there is something very weird here because he.

16:43

Will. Want to jettison. People.

16:46

Who are going to be embarrassing in certain ways

16:48

but also want to be getting voters who do

16:51

think the stuff. You know it's

16:53

not coincidentally accountable, we know so forth. but

16:55

it's like it is not a coincidence that

16:57

the not as and.sort of becoming reform candidates

16:59

are not for exhaust have enough. for example

17:01

green salad as that's not true but you

17:03

know when it's invite there is something that

17:05

appeals that there is partly based that pills

17:07

that they do. There is this sort of

17:09

vote in being the party that allows maybe

17:11

not the cannibals, but that doesn't denounce people

17:13

for having what they choose. Result is good

17:15

common sense views about who we should throw

17:17

in the seats you know, So I'm lie,

17:19

I think I don't quite that was trust

17:21

you make sense know. But because more, I

17:23

did wonder if there was indeed strategies

17:25

here. Is that Lawrence Fox

17:28

is very angry that these candidates.

17:30

With. Their excellent deporting views have

17:32

been shouts out, and Cb News

17:35

host Gonna Tomlinson unremarkable sweet claims

17:37

that if twice keeps this up

17:39

then they won't be any actual

17:42

quote far right representation and quote

17:44

at all. And so as a

17:47

choice gets very litigious if equal

17:49

m his party far right And

17:51

so this enables. Him. Surely

17:54

to look like the reasonable won his,

17:56

You've got people going. You. Know

17:58

what's wrong with swastikas? You're You're

18:00

right flank so. I'm wondering whether

18:02

that was all places like these are the

18:05

people that wake were getting rid of like

18:07

you say that will lose some vote for

18:09

that assumes that he's got somebody else does

18:11

seem so this other people that seems that

18:13

as the consistency of reasonable people who who

18:15

don't like any of these views who disagree

18:17

with Lawrence Box about. Whatever the

18:19

fuck is saying that are all that

18:21

kind of stuff. Ah, and yeah, I'll

18:23

crying out for whatever they Richard Toys

18:25

police on any given moment that the

18:27

Reform offers iron. or maybe I mean

18:29

I've got me into they'd be. It's

18:31

certainly a gamble. I'm sorry. Reform is

18:33

unlikely to win any seats, but it

18:35

is very likely to spit the right

18:37

and do labor a favor. And

18:40

is warning against armageddon. Which.

18:43

Is a nice linked of topic. Say

18:45

thank you and. But. Of

18:47

course is effectively working towards exactly

18:49

that. So. What is

18:51

the strategy? What is a

18:53

great result for reform? Sale.

18:57

Prices Sad that. Phase.

18:59

Lot and always about destroying the toys and

19:01

face team is now that warning people about.

19:03

Started at it and then he had that

19:05

path convince added a sweet waste both about

19:07

the mine workers pension scheme that he brought

19:09

the Anderson and just to talk about and

19:11

then he said lee Anderson away again and

19:13

it was all kind of say strange an

19:15

Nhs as well but domestic was very incoherence

19:17

and I suspect the missing is into heaven

19:19

because as Ross this kind of leading to

19:22

that base is quite into heaven. although I'm

19:24

sure that base does threat to get across

19:26

in a difference of economic and costs back

19:28

on I would wager. A large proportion of

19:30

that based defines them. South is working class.

19:32

Part of it is that Richard Tice is.

19:34

I mean ultimately what they want is they

19:37

just want a decent chunk of this out.

19:39

At the election, they wanted damage to the

19:41

Tories and then I think they are thinking

19:43

they're going to play the long game on

19:45

this and target labor at the next election.

19:48

take advantage of divisions they've in That same

19:50

as take advantage of divisions over the economy

19:52

over him A Gray said and guys, that

19:54

Us? I mean I don't think there is

19:57

a saucy much beyond the Us and. I

19:59

think that is because it is basically

20:01

a party of incoherence. Lots of mix

20:03

message, right? lots of different aims, and

20:06

ultimately the only thing? They're all united

20:08

on and on, doing fairly well as

20:10

nibbling away at the consensus. Okay, so

20:12

bear with me. They're. Saying we

20:14

wanted to the Tory party. Once we've done

20:17

that, we will become lightly freezing opposition selectmen

20:19

like that's what they say. I'm.

20:22

I would not put money on that scenarios,

20:24

but then what would seem like a more

20:26

vulnerable lot of people dispatches their aim is

20:29

actually to push the Tories to the radical

20:31

right in the way that you know you

20:33

keep succeeded in making the Tories kind of

20:35

a break zip policy. Now those two things

20:37

quite different. You want to wreck the Tory

20:39

party, would you want to transform it. Through.

20:42

Is that do think that's the kind of that?

20:45

The secret goal in the they've actually got people

20:47

that they would swing behind on the Tory right?

20:49

I don't know. I mean that's not my

20:51

feeling from the lead to hurt. I wonder

20:54

if there are people toying with the idea

20:56

of joining Reform conservative mps who are using

20:58

it as a threat in a that parties

21:00

you've got people answered Jenkins, for example, She's

21:02

not said she's going to join Reform, but

21:04

you definitely got this. and she is openly

21:06

flirting with Reform to try and push her

21:08

party in a certain direction. But I think

21:11

ultimately what we've seen him as a conservative

21:13

party's they all very divided and possibly could

21:15

benefit from just splitting into that are all

21:17

and peace within the party. He was so

21:19

fundamentally. Different from the Mp next to

21:21

them. So you have the really economically

21:23

liberal and socially liberal mps who are

21:25

just sites let people do whatever they

21:28

want and then of the one nation

21:30

tories us slightly more. I was a

21:32

conservative on things like tax and regulation

21:34

but tend to be about as being.

21:37

Pretty. Nice each other and listing people up

21:39

to you that it's not as additive. Weiss

21:41

And then you have the really socially

21:43

conservative mps few Ah Tse Tung be

21:45

a bit more, almost what we would

21:47

say, kind of economically left wing who

21:49

got seed. Didn't. Like austerity and

21:51

in a one seats and the community

21:53

band route and the costs each other

21:55

states to such say incoherence. That and

21:57

I think that see the policy now.

22:00

Very very fact Shades and Reform might be

22:02

trying to push some people him a full

22:04

might be trying to push the Conservative party

22:06

for by think ultimately Reform is now presenting

22:09

itself as an alternative for those parts of

22:11

the conservative party that just on shelling with

22:13

what the central it was Even the phrase.

22:15

Pushing the Tory party to the right

22:17

is like will which right ear popcorn

22:20

not com yeah for com yen long

22:22

Con: The leadership of Reform if we

22:24

consider for us to be that is

22:26

super reform which noom spiritual leader I

22:28

guests I'm great Euro whatever is. Is

22:31

low tax most aids and you know

22:33

low tax small state law regulation and

22:35

into this is it comes back to

22:37

his the whole bucks interference. It comes

22:39

back to rights the brakes. It was

22:41

a a regulation stripping small state project.

22:43

The relied on support from people who

22:45

want a bigger stay and more money

22:47

you know and so that the incoherence

22:49

it's middle of this. this post bricks

22:51

it right. My reference to Stop It

22:53

is what it is. It's not much

22:55

yet as if you look at Mack

22:57

Good wins that fabled realignment that's not

22:59

small state versus Sixty. First day. Which

23:01

looks amazing We that? I mean,

23:04

Obviously they wanted me. This is the

23:06

fifth assessment of Know Enemy whatever the

23:08

either what the opposite of the great

23:10

and good as but that was he

23:12

was. there's a com and Liz Truss

23:14

pops up and get you just like

23:16

will. hang on. List Trials is kind

23:18

of like maniacs. Thatcherism. And.

23:20

How does that fit in with some

23:22

of the you know them all kind

23:24

of colorful characters like that's the The

23:26

Party seem to sum up like what

23:28

a weird. Mess.

23:31

This. Part of the right is. I

23:34

think it's almost. I mean it's not just

23:36

as his birthday was safe as if it's

23:38

almost like a great as everybody who feel

23:40

personally victimized by really see that or you

23:42

know these feels like they were on a

23:44

yacht was and yeah and they were in

23:46

some way history has has remembered the runway

23:48

in a list transmogrified. All these people who

23:50

feel like that vision for the country is

23:52

not quite been executed that are still get

23:54

that times are not even a mess what

23:56

the Conservative party's become it's become a group

23:58

of people who believe. It somebody

24:00

stop someone in the bag. Somebody didn't

24:02

get a fair shot. The party's gonna in the

24:05

wrong direction or it's going in the right direction.

24:07

but nobody fucking at. You know it's completely just

24:09

a posse been fighting. Now The only thing that

24:11

really bonds the conservatives together is the fact that

24:13

they all. Kind. Of hate each other I think

24:15

at this. Point. I'm

24:18

rose. There are radical right parties across

24:20

Europe National Rally in France, Safety in

24:22

Germany get billed as Party for Freedom

24:24

in the Netherlands. Such. A nice

24:27

name for bad bosses. How

24:29

is reform Uk? Difference. Well.

24:32

They all tend to dislike immigration, and I

24:34

also dislike Net Zero, so they have those

24:36

things in common. And of course, in Germany,

24:38

you've. Also got an interesting yeah Left party

24:40

which has emerged as a kind of. Challenger

24:43

to the F T and Size a

24:45

populist left party or which is Sarah

24:47

Fog and Act who is on the

24:50

populace lest and they may well end

24:52

up splitting the puppy despite. But it's

24:54

very strange the development as they have

24:56

quite lot in common with nasty but

24:59

not everything but reform. And

25:01

basically reform started. It's origins line

25:03

back that obviously, as we know.

25:06

And these parties in Europe tend to

25:08

be less keen on breaks it because

25:10

they have seen how pricks it has

25:12

gone. There was a time when Marine

25:14

Le Pen wanted to leave the U

25:16

button now very much the aim is

25:18

to change the you from within since.

25:20

Oldest is drop Next it's the as it's

25:23

really a few days with and and. Viktor

25:25

Orban is is not. You know he's not

25:27

interested in in leaving the U. He's interested

25:29

in changing the you to make it. Powerless

25:32

Smash/costs how coast on his concern

25:34

sitting inside the said. Yes, exactly.

25:36

But a big irony of course is

25:39

that they because they are historically all

25:41

about breakfast and because most people for

25:43

now agree that breaks it has been

25:45

a failure. Whether you think that that

25:47

was always going to be a failure

25:50

or whether you think that it was

25:52

badly implemented and that is like an

25:54

albatross around their neck now. So. There's.

25:57

No easy topic that that that they're

25:59

credible. Rethink this has his to

26:01

limit how much support they can get

26:03

because friday so intrinsically associated with breakfasts

26:05

the average you know every time he

26:08

comes out there people always segment the

26:10

electorate is always going to say yet

26:12

when he wanted breaks it I'd look

26:14

how that turned out the it's really

26:16

the the huge irony of reform that

26:18

that was how they got to where

26:20

they are now but now it's actually

26:22

stopping them from getting. Much further than

26:24

they are also the European relic right

26:27

policies I'm I'm finding a mouse poor

26:29

from the young. Yeah. Where

26:31

is it seems that you know reform it

26:34

is mostly old white men like that's the

26:36

cool in while I was late middle aged

26:38

old to be vs Oregon nerves because the

26:40

it's a party as the Conservatives were going

26:43

as a party of homeowners without mortgages. Is

26:45

a good wave of to basically summing up

26:47

with demographic homeowners about does so that that

26:50

grub links the the very very well off

26:52

with them in the old. Yeah,

26:54

as we just noted for us now

26:56

old enough to claim his senior bus

26:58

pass, there's no major female figures in

27:00

the party space. It's a these parties

27:02

in Europe. Are there? Are you know? Jen.

27:04

Access people like Giorgia Meloni

27:06

in Italy and says even

27:09

Jordan Bardella in France who

27:11

is a young millennial. I

27:13

think it's and and that

27:15

really is that enhances their

27:18

appeal. Reform is just struggling

27:20

to escape from this aging

27:22

homeowner angry bloke. What

27:25

these people do not lives is

27:27

immigration and Matt Goodwin mincing again for

27:29

some or for recess wrote papers

27:31

for the gas him as saying that

27:34

always could win these people back

27:36

with a bold offer on immigration. As

27:38

a world of euphemisms in that phrase bold

27:41

offer is he writes or it is

27:43

the rage on a piece below. What would

27:45

you have to do to immigrants in

27:47

order to please these people? That, since we

27:49

want to destroy the Tory policy, well first

27:52

let's look at the bold offer because

27:54

it is not bald. And slightest

27:56

skis of. his suggestion is a

27:58

referendum on bringing that migration. That

28:00

hundred thousand Now basically that's been

28:02

to repost postseason forever. This isn't

28:04

on season and it. Is and

28:06

it's never happened. So what? Why on

28:08

earth anybody would think that it is

28:10

going to happen because there's a mess

28:12

around? Agree? Some worried. Not worth only.

28:14

The of than the brakes referendum which was a bad

28:17

idea. Yeah the thing is it seems less

28:19

immediately cruel and some as as thing you

28:21

notice that of the things that you could

28:23

say about immigration. And. That some before candidates

28:25

are quietly saying about immigration like for

28:27

for Nasa says how everybody a lot

28:30

who arrived often. Ninety Ninety Service: It

28:32

sounds kind of reasonable, but of course,

28:34

who the hell wants. Another

28:36

referendum? Ah. It as a

28:39

game reform voters do the idea that the

28:41

tories could put across of at and oppose

28:43

offer which would be believed his i think

28:45

completely for the birds. From. It's it's

28:47

sort of stimulus is fundamentally a split because

28:49

it's or and we do. This conversation goes

28:51

round two months. It's very clear how you

28:53

club immigration. if you want to come immigration

28:56

you com immigration through of extremely tightly controlled

28:58

unregulated economy stay and you based the end

29:00

up having up as over a very heavily

29:02

state controlled societies which is the precise opposite

29:04

of what the people who generally want to

29:06

control immigration once so he's very interesting. We're

29:09

getting the sort of populist left wing movements

29:11

in a lot of Euro for the much

29:13

muscles threatening to do quite a lot of

29:15

the items you. Have a humdinger. Yeah

29:17

I mean I think you'd as all kinds of

29:19

arguments and around it but I think he even

29:22

need for start something I can id cards yeah

29:24

of course you need to kind of i'm control.

29:26

That. Is completely as

29:29

a deadline locked down. Know defenseless

29:31

sources. Other than a sensor ambitious

29:33

member talk about business earlier. nominally Reform

29:35

is a pro business that what you

29:37

find when take things a pro business

29:39

is actually very pro migration. So that's

29:41

another contradiction that. As getting off the

29:43

mayhem and the rise him and his i'm

29:45

sorry finally let's talk about the electoral consequences.

29:48

Were going to start with people may be

29:50

who dancing by bothered to to from your

29:52

piece which is Labour so this sort of

29:54

threats you know to say they're gonna steal

29:56

the working class voters from Labour. What's

29:59

the? Them without plan. Well

30:01

I think Labour actually as a lot

30:03

I speaking to Labour about this pace

30:05

they said when them said to be

30:07

we really don't care what Richard Ties

30:10

is saying to they could have been

30:12

I think they think of reform almost

30:14

as a kind of useful idiot is

30:16

gonna help split Dettori though and and

30:18

basically gift labor a lot more electoral

30:20

success on a date He never told

30:22

am worried about which ties his new

30:24

proposition which is that the you know

30:26

reform are coming for Labour stout over

30:28

former come into the working class. That's

30:30

part. Of. That causes the thought that lead

30:32

but isn't necessarily the party of the

30:35

and in vet com is working class

30:37

anymore. A lot of layman based now

30:39

is a middle class date. The other

30:41

part is that the dividing line all

30:44

the indicator if you're going to move

30:46

to the. To. Reform is how

30:48

you voted in the. Referendum.

30:52

Equally, if you voted Tory in two thousand

30:54

and nineteen or if you were previously a

30:56

conservative I to any other types but you

30:58

voted to remain you more like could switch

31:01

to labour says there is quite a lot

31:03

of clay was a between reform and labor

31:05

rights is the referendum that it's gonna be

31:08

really difficult suchlike. Reform will cut basically x

31:10

labour voters with the ones that would be

31:12

lost over brag that. Yes and then of

31:14

course we have more more increasingly does more

31:16

support for rejoining the you have people being

31:18

skeptical about our relationship, looks of the apes

31:20

and any other side to the matter is

31:22

that if you're talking about the west and

31:25

cause I think them in that gets ignored

31:27

a lot especially by reform is that see

31:29

a large portion of the working class or

31:31

are black minority ethnic under sort of language

31:33

that they use is obviously quite hostile so

31:35

you're very unlikely to get a source of

31:37

voters moving. Rise Reform as well fully

31:39

embraces American politics. Thing is working class

31:42

is always basically white working class like

31:44

that source of what working class means

31:46

it's it's sort of pretty bizarre the

31:48

the just for just ignore of him

31:50

what he was once said. finally Tories

31:52

towards you speak to how worried are

31:54

they did it will turn was always

31:56

ready going to be to feed into

31:59

complete disaster either. They're not worried that

32:01

Reform going to take their seats, but

32:03

they're worried that Reformer going to nibble

32:05

away at the battle. Media adding that

32:07

also worried that about defections and more

32:09

the symbolism of people like we spoke

32:12

about before under Jenkins or other kind

32:14

of at right leaning conservative mps talking

32:16

up Reform that just concerned about the

32:18

reputation of damage that Reform is doing

32:20

by constantly attacking them on having people

32:23

like Nigel Farage. I'm I think it

32:25

They think if Nigel farage what he

32:27

stands for reform that would be. Very.

32:29

Damaging and would put lot of pressure. From

32:32

the right the party on see that

32:35

to shifts saints course basically widely talking

32:37

about reform has also done a little

32:39

bit way things work. During

32:55

his latest book Everything Must Go! The stories

32:57

we tell about the into the World is

32:59

out now and you could buy it by

33:01

following the link in the show notes. It's

33:03

an amazing breed I would say that, but

33:05

it is. Honestly it takes you all the

33:07

wife revelations to don't look up on Netflix.

33:09

It is the definitive work on the End

33:11

of the World and he blew my mind.

33:13

To be honest, dorian. Who

33:16

the tough to spend months and months thinking about

33:18

the end of the world? If not, Yes! Not

33:22

as much as you might think. Actually

33:24

I think this to I think for

33:27

to two reasons. One is there is

33:29

a grieved numbing. The takes

33:31

place is that if you read one

33:33

novel about London being ravaged by a

33:36

plague. And. Over

33:38

to says Paul and indeed continued

33:40

seem a bit of cannibalism. You're

33:42

like whoa this is heavy he

33:45

few reds. Over. One

33:47

hundred after? Why to slot?

33:49

All right? Yeah, that that

33:52

rope. Okay also. I'm everyone

33:54

in his books is having a much harder time

33:56

and me. And. That sometimes life can be

33:58

quite a school as it can be for. I'm

34:00

but it's not as difficult to do this

34:03

for the Father and Cormac Mccarthy's The Road

34:05

for example, Who's. Not got

34:07

any bogus to do. And

34:10

so he a weird way that it a

34:12

it to assets that was six week on

34:14

things may be all that bad and and

34:17

and similarly with nonfiction some of the stuff

34:19

that people were saying i'm lucy letters to

34:21

the times and in like nineteen fifty four

34:23

rather be which game was played doing anything

34:26

because again it we can be blown up

34:28

tomorrow which is not something I think the

34:30

we culturally remember about the nineteen fifties is

34:32

absolute terror is imminent nuclear annihilation and say.

34:35

Why? Hope to do with had to have

34:37

that same effect to the read It was

34:39

not say there's nothing to worry about, do

34:41

that with things to worry about that that

34:44

a lot of these these memos terrific fears

34:46

did did not materialize and what we generally

34:48

facing his many difficult problems in the world

34:50

but not the actual end of the world

34:52

which is is me at the is really

34:54

very dramatic scenario says all that surprising is

34:56

what happened yet. What?

34:58

See earliest evidence that we have

35:01

that humans. Imagined their own

35:03

destruction. Clearly more primitive beings don't

35:05

imaginary destruction and we don't know.

35:08

You know The first, the first

35:10

guy staring into the fire thought.

35:12

Of one day maybe this five will destroy

35:14

the world's that's what's the earliest that we

35:17

dealt. With the main difference is

35:19

is what is how you see history and

35:21

so a lot the ancient religions like a

35:23

lot of eastern regions. Now I'm see a

35:25

history as time is a wheel basically it

35:28

is a psycho out for example as in

35:30

in Hinduism and. The innovation

35:32

the came from the Zoroastrians.

35:35

I was in. sort of inherited by Judaism

35:37

and Christianity is the time is an arrow

35:40

and it is moving forward. And if it

35:42

is moving forward in a linear. Direction.

35:45

Than and some point it is going

35:47

to end. It just stands to reason.

35:49

so there are kind of I postulate

35:51

six visions they would do in to

35:53

be called apocalyptic at the time. they're

35:55

sort of visions of the end of

35:57

the idea of the and bought revelation

35:59

is the one. Where it really is

36:01

amiss. A buzzard piece of writing,

36:03

I think. We. Are you when

36:05

you really get into it? you realize is quite how. Incoherent

36:08

and weird and horrifying it is.

36:10

And that's the one that sort

36:13

of steaks because it is is

36:15

full of com mad imagery and

36:17

grotesque characters and codes and cyphers

36:20

and strange numbers. I'm and so

36:22

that's really become the one that

36:24

I think we've all in some

36:26

ways in subconsciously inherited. Yeah,

36:29

this is an awful of weird shit that didn't make

36:31

it into the. Bible. I'm the day cause

36:33

of this is just as if he takes

36:35

up as fast as that. Some of the

36:37

apocrypha of their endless a pilot says the

36:40

as that I was there were not like

36:42

this one and but for some reason they

36:44

thought with revelations this is fine since. The

36:46

end of the world is usually a nightmare. I mean not.

36:49

Not always if you're one of the

36:51

chosen, but it's use a nightmare. but

36:53

nonetheless we do seem to present in

36:55

it and we clearly can't stop thinking

36:58

and talking about it. Why?

37:01

So. There's a few. Possible.

37:03

Motives here I'm one of them is the

37:05

get people need to sort of it's is

37:07

was processing your worst fears. Is

37:10

projecting your own anxiety about death on

37:12

to the world itself? But

37:16

actually there's so many different motivations in

37:18

play and some people ah it's it's

37:20

of nihilists and Mrs. Ropes and they

37:22

kind of would like to see the

37:24

world destroy they would like it's to

37:27

be over. And then

37:29

there are people who, in the in that

37:31

sort of classically apocalyptic sense because the populace

37:33

isn't the End of the World's. For.

37:35

The good guys. The good guys. get. You

37:38

know, A Tennessee is a good time so

37:40

that as those people were they think will if

37:42

there's just this of calamitous event was doesn't actually

37:44

end the world but destroy civilization as we know

37:47

it and all that be we don't like go

37:49

in and and it's great for us as is

37:51

that. Kind. Of thinking And then

37:53

a lot of people I think use

37:55

it as a kind of i'm memento

37:57

mori like a kind of what would

37:59

we. And so Season Eleven,

38:01

for example. The. Novel on the

38:03

Tv series Incredible are actually a

38:05

way of assessing the kind of

38:07

the everyday miracles that we live

38:10

with, and I find it really moving

38:12

and humane. That. The way the an

38:14

airport suddenly becomes not a pain in the ass

38:16

to be stuck in. This

38:18

kind of this last miracle.

38:21

Like oh my god we could just

38:23

go up into the sky and we

38:25

could. You know they were concession stands

38:28

of duty free. There were other people

38:30

you know so that that that this

38:32

is as humanist in this nihilists and

38:34

this revolution raised and this all these

38:37

kind of different motives come together. So.

38:40

Does the prospect of our extinction actually

38:42

help us? to? this? I.

38:44

Think it can sharpen your appreciation of life

38:46

is it isn't that definite? I think that's

38:49

connected. the landing point I find in in

38:51

in the books. That is the most useful

38:53

way. To. Think about it in many

38:55

ways. It didn't help at all. You.

38:58

Know I I definitely found that

39:00

there was quite of a lot

39:02

of apocalyptic rhetoric in politics and

39:04

in science where the said research

39:06

shows that psychologically they can be

39:09

very very negative. I just or

39:11

for example one of the the

39:13

Un Climate change and was saying

39:15

two years to save the world

39:17

would seems like one less goodness

39:19

get respect people into action and

39:22

very urgent bots. When that

39:24

rhetoric is use What what often happens is

39:26

that the deadline passes and then people either

39:28

think we were exaggerating and I'm not gonna

39:30

believe or they think will. I do believe

39:32

you And now it's too late to do

39:34

anything. Whereas a lot of

39:37

climate scientists and activists, we'll go, We'll look.

39:39

It's not a cliff edge. it's a sloop. And

39:42

you can always reduce the damage. It is

39:44

never too late to make it. Less.

39:46

Bad. And. So the

39:48

apocalyptic idea of like that once you

39:51

reach a certain point, it's game over.

39:53

It can be great up to that

39:56

point in terms of getting people very

39:58

very gays, but then he also risks

40:00

people thinking one point. Which is what

40:02

happened psychologically during the Cold War. There

40:04

will the Study's about how people felt

40:06

about nuclear weapons and and a lot

40:08

of the time there was kind of

40:10

despair and apathy and sometimes even just

40:12

a craving like I'm sick of waiting.

40:14

Bring it on. And. I think some

40:16

people feel about climate change. The just

40:19

Like make. Get. It over with. So.

40:21

It's it's really quickly him really quite dangerous,

40:23

complex language, even though sometimes it can seem

40:26

like a really useful way of a sliding

40:28

out something urgent. What's the

40:30

link between puberty and the apocalypse? Why the

40:32

seventy kids books about the populace, some the

40:34

books for young people by the apocalypse and

40:36

me to many children stories does or set

40:38

in the and the end times. the end

40:40

of the well, that sort of thing. I.

40:43

Do I think part of that might be? Ah,

40:46

my family celebrity status On what I

40:48

have no idea what I think part

40:51

of it might be a benign version

40:53

of the survivalist Miss Gusset. Survivalism is

40:55

not a benign culture. It's. Is

40:57

often very very right wing men with

41:00

guns and the idea is that sort

41:02

of society is corrupt and confining. It's

41:04

and the if everything is goes awfully

41:07

wrong and size he falls apart. then

41:09

you and your Cpu mates with your

41:11

bunk when your guns will sort of

41:14

rule the at the new in you

41:16

can be free and this the tempest.

41:19

Get. A big The Iris is a theme

41:21

and and book and movie Get Dave the

41:23

Triffids wherever this kind of idea this was

41:25

a say oh god at least some liberated

41:27

from like a parking tickets or whatever like

41:29

we're things I think that the kind a

41:31

young adult definitely feel that there is that

41:33

kind of thrill of like. It's

41:36

just you and your crew and the any

41:38

rules are the ones you make for yourself.

41:40

but the that this is adult versions of

41:42

bat. Which. There is a whole flares and cause

41:44

Lord of the Flies which isn't in it would sort

41:46

of is an end of the world novel even though

41:48

it's not literally about the Under the World. I mean

41:50

that says the things don't always like. Pan

41:52

out. But. I think there

41:54

is something in a in that sort of freedom

41:57

and for similar reasons why I think so many

41:59

books for kids. And and young adults

42:01

are about orphans you don't Parents

42:03

ruining everything much easier thrive commentators

42:05

my parents right much is it

42:07

is ultimately know your your parents

42:09

be you do not have school

42:11

pacific society asshole you you sort

42:13

of ultimately free and that's fine

42:15

in those those stories about with

42:17

with adult stories it becomes very

42:19

very scary and you get realize

42:21

survivalists he. You

42:23

know, a get into suit

42:25

house with the Feds are

42:27

people. I'm more likely to

42:29

create art about the apocalypse

42:31

at times of. Global.

42:34

Turmoil or is the northern class.

42:36

There. Is Deanna it is definitely a link.

42:39

A really really really really shifts the at

42:41

sea get very very little booklets, effects and

42:43

to most of the nineteenth century and then

42:45

towards the end of nice his entry. People.

42:48

Getting very anxious about technological change

42:51

and political turmoil. I'm.

42:53

And then there's a huge spike. Then off

42:55

the says well war you get another wave

42:57

where everybody's imagining that the next war when

42:59

literally. You. Know destroy humanity

43:02

as and of see after the

43:04

Atomic Bomb and Forty five. Them.

43:07

As a whole other ways. And and

43:09

then in southern same since since that

43:11

parents that has never not been appointed

43:14

as a success. And what's weird is

43:16

that it really made me rethink the

43:18

nineties. That that is quite easy to

43:20

look back at the nineties whether you

43:22

live through it or not and think

43:24

it was like well it was the

43:26

was time is like generally sort of

43:28

peace and prosperity in Munich, Britpop and

43:31

the sitcom Friends but at the time

43:33

there was a there was a his

43:35

step is because of the millennium and

43:37

various other say where's concerns about technology.

43:39

And and then there was a little lots of

43:41

things that people they freaked out about. A lot

43:43

of Doomsday Colts. A lot of

43:45

movies about the into the world, so it's not

43:47

as if there is a time of relative peace

43:50

and prosperity and people are thinking about it. That's

43:52

what I found most curious. that there was almost.

43:54

There was no ebb and flow is essentially the

43:56

people are thinking about the end of the world.

43:58

Over. Time. You.

44:01

Spoke quite a bit in your book

44:03

about. The. Link between

44:05

oh us talking about the

44:07

apocalypse in so satirical humorous

44:09

terms. Such. As so

44:12

Burnham's inside of the films and

44:14

the top, How does satire? Contribute.

44:17

To our understanding of the apocalypse. And is

44:19

it something that we're using morals now or

44:22

hope I was. Satire always been a theme

44:24

when people are talking about the apocalypse. Their

44:27

sensor is used to be really quite rare.

44:29

the some suffer the more obscure things like

44:32

an amazing Austrian play called the Under the

44:34

World from the Thirties which is a satire

44:36

of of a Business as or of the

44:38

whole of Humanity based on a comic coming

44:41

to destroy the the world and is sort

44:43

of like a very early version of don't

44:45

Look Up It's gonna weird how similar it

44:47

is, but it was still quite shocking. I

44:50

win.strangelove. came out. The. Idea

44:52

of using humor. That. The

44:54

Stanley Kubrick didn't start off with the idea that can

44:56

be funny, He worked his way to would sixties like

44:59

this is the only way to represent this of madness

45:01

of this and I'm generally shocking. A lot of people

45:03

thought that the ending was like was as awful. As.

45:05

As soon as. Horrible sort

45:07

of childish nihilists job. So.

45:11

Quite hard to pull off. Kurt Vonnegut. Very good at

45:13

it. But. Even now I think what we

45:15

don't know it's not satisfy his is kind

45:18

of weird. Like. With

45:20

the By Burnham thing with I'm was deflated, resignation

45:22

and one of the things I worried about writing

45:24

the book was whether you know that the

45:26

end of the World is just a vibe and

45:28

you to talk about it like will obviously it's

45:31

gonna happen. But. You can do

45:33

in a stand up comedy show or in a

45:35

Saudi Rooney Nova Nigga will obviously it's the end

45:37

and like is that side he'll? Does.

45:39

That help six any problems? or

45:42

is it just kind of like

45:44

roy resignation to not to pick

45:46

on any of these particular the

45:48

writers or whatever. but it it

45:51

doesn't He does worry me as

45:53

a symptom to get. A sense

45:55

of why there has been not on this

45:57

that tone cysts is it to do with

45:59

us. How he being

46:01

so of less religiously driven and in a

46:03

deaf or less worried about obsessing are may

46:06

serve or is it so busy with social

46:08

media and just been bombarded by terrible things

46:10

all the time and debbie did you pick

46:13

up a knee so of cultural context

46:15

for that. Yeah, I'm

46:17

using the religious Those who that goes

46:19

back a lot further. You know this

46:21

and relative decline of religion in some

46:23

ways this thinking as a substitute for

46:25

the biblical verses. I'm. And.

46:28

And. What? until I watch? I saw get across.

46:30

Is that there are things that we should

46:33

be worried about that, saying that perhaps we

46:35

are too obsessed with the and was not

46:37

to? You know global warming doesn't

46:39

exist and and everybody chill. Although the nuclear

46:41

weapons of disappear like that. lots of stuff

46:43

to be worried about the that is different

46:46

to. That sort of

46:48

apocalyptic thinking and I've found is amazing phrase

46:50

from the poet want To Stevens In the

46:52

nineteen forties, we talked about the pressure of

46:55

reality. And. He's going to some it's

46:57

news these days. Is

47:00

him as radio. The

47:02

papers as is very hard to

47:04

put things into historical context and

47:06

understand what What? What? previous generations

47:08

of scared off and a witches

47:10

those things you know. Materialized.

47:14

In which didn't and that phrase, the pressure

47:16

reality, oh my God, you know, you see

47:18

it manifesting a or am the as long

47:20

as we know. In. That kind of

47:22

the blood, the dawn of twenty four hour

47:24

tv news and now that's what we have

47:26

all time on our phones. Are

47:29

media diet is a huge part of that and

47:31

it can be a kind of self perpetuating leap

47:33

from us with the yeah, we have the word

47:35

doom scrolling. Ah, And

47:37

I think we should be aware that it

47:39

did. The meat is media. the information were

47:41

consuming. Plays. A big

47:44

part of that and know everything is an

47:46

objective analysis of the dangers we face. City

47:49

work out whether we should be frightened or

47:51

as a as a I've decided. Well in the

47:53

course of writing this that. Know

47:56

I mean less. So let's say or

47:58

what I realized my think. The changed

48:00

a little bit in the last

48:02

couple years. the people talking and

48:04

much more now about the threats,

48:06

people's jobs and the information ecosystem

48:09

and like relieves very alive practical

48:11

things are about a paper Clips

48:13

North you did right, they did

48:15

the paper clip maximise or that

48:17

Nick Bostrom being that the great

48:19

kind of like. So. Profit

48:21

of A I do and. What

48:24

surprised me again with that see fig

48:26

about a hundred years to the earliest

48:28

stories about robots. The early stories about

48:30

computers in a before these things existed

48:32

is was about the electronic brain. And

48:34

if you build an electronic brain. Inevitably,

48:38

This is lava. humanity. Inevitably,

48:40

The electronic brain will want to kill you. It's.

48:43

Decide what obvious is not gonna help.

48:45

I says it's obviously going to want

48:47

to kill us and say go over

48:49

and say those are things planes which

48:51

we even though the i am i'm

48:53

say hysterics after his. They did go

48:56

down to crowd terminator but it's source

48:58

of these is not dissimilar to the

49:00

idea of the terminator and I do

49:02

notice that example Elon Musk was one

49:04

of the. The. First really high

49:06

profile people to be worried about this

49:08

of apocalyptic possibilities of ice for the

49:11

where he's headed. And.

49:13

And a lot of the time these kind this

49:15

car language these kind of fears. Are

49:18

used in quite dangerous ways and

49:20

to become self serving and socially

49:22

destructive so I think it makes

49:24

much more sense. To look

49:26

cat. That the

49:28

problems that we have for the immediate

49:30

problems that we're facing rather than the

49:32

kind of more futuristic. Far.

49:35

Off think I will say be careful Well

49:37

programming you I. I think

49:39

that's police Solid advice. Make sure

49:41

that you can turn it off.

49:44

If it starts going crazy. But.

49:46

Yes, he's made me a little more

49:48

like suspicious of that stuff. Well.

49:51

Reluctant as I am to bring this discussion

49:53

to an end, all things must come. To

49:55

that since forehead and don't forget

49:57

to buy this book is that.

50:00

Fantastic read and I understand the if you're

50:02

on some patron tears, you actually get a

50:04

signed copy. Is. That said, the case

50:06

story and so yes it is. Thank you

50:08

Rose, Thanks French, We miss was enough for

50:10

inquest and eight was an absolute allegiance. Hearing

50:12

myself might be considered a little low, so

50:14

serving as. I

50:31

We have reached the end of the show and it

50:33

is trying to talk about some stories that have gone

50:35

under the radar this week. Very tix of. Okay,

50:37

so my the made our class. It

50:39

actually comes from a listener who told

50:42

us that they had fallen foul of

50:44

a three month passport rule for travelling

50:46

to Europe and new plants that release

50:48

taste symbol protocol basically meant that they

50:50

got turned away at the gates because

50:52

the sole times about your possible expiring

50:54

have all changed and let's be blunt

50:56

where this. but luckily my great colleague

50:58

Simon called a healer, the paid on

51:00

list of pocus the phone and let

51:03

a great article warning us all to

51:05

check our passports before we go traveling

51:07

because. In operates a deal the Uk

51:09

negotiate for British travellers become said country

51:11

nationals. Now this means that we are

51:13

now part of the cohort. That means

51:16

we cannot enter the Edu on a

51:18

possible issued over ten years ago. This

51:20

essentially means thoughts and. Two. Hundred

51:22

Up on travel is a day provides

51:24

from departing because they don't know the

51:26

new Eve rules. On an estimated two

51:28

point four million British travellers have documents

51:30

that can't be used for each hips

51:32

because a sea change in expiry requirements.

51:35

So if you are planning to go

51:37

on holiday season make sure you check

51:39

the new rules and make sure you

51:41

check the time on your passports that

51:43

it was issued officer at May twenty

51:45

fourth the because if it's issue before

51:47

that you may well be out of

51:49

date and it means that you would

51:51

be up to. Fly out or get a kid.

51:54

And the government assist with the press. The new

51:56

possible up by quite a lot as well.

51:58

Mortgage? Nice. Yeah. How will

52:00

think is listener if this is getting

52:02

fat provide all I'm a serial. essence

52:04

of a site would be great Roz

52:06

the reports. That a that ministers

52:08

are considering a ban on smartphones

52:10

under sixteen's what that actually means

52:13

because you can't than small. Thanks

52:15

for Under Sixteen's is a fan

52:17

on under Sixteen's buying smartphones. Themselves.

52:20

Of many stupid ideas that have come

52:23

out of this government and attempts to

52:25

ban saying this is probably the most

52:27

egregious and the worst because as I

52:29

threw everybody who has and under sixteen

52:31

will know they don't buy. Their own

52:33

spot. Sides: We buy them for them

52:35

to as it's as a necessity than thou

52:37

days in my life pretty much to have

52:39

a smartphone. and the idea that of batting

52:42

and under sixteen from buying a smartphone is

52:44

going to solve all problems that have emerged

52:46

from social media in the last decade or

52:48

so is just. it's just a sort of

52:50

bag, my head slowly against the table. When

52:52

I knew smartphones have dinner, tic

52:54

toc and Instagram on them but

52:56

they also phones. And. I

52:59

think the reason lot of people by

53:01

of phones for their under sixteen's is

53:03

so that the know what they are.

53:05

Yeah. And you can so you getting

53:07

home safely it does you know? So unless

53:09

they're gonna the government is what is it

53:12

is gonna lawns make governments. Government.

53:14

Mandated old school no fee is so you

53:16

can do the phoning but you can't go

53:18

on social media. Swell school. Some schools really

53:21

to party that I mean they're my son's

53:23

soon to be secondary basically demands that to

53:25

have a and old school knock here and

53:28

you bring you know yeah although I very

53:30

much doubt that that is enforced in practice

53:32

but that's the rule. Settlements like banning things

53:34

always listens of as something recently and they

53:37

would scan will look banning things as is

53:39

really cheap. Yes. And. So if

53:41

you want to look like you're being decisive

53:43

but you don't want to spend any money,

53:46

you just something. even though the band's don't

53:48

generally work. Yep, it is. It's

53:50

just a trend in this administration. It is

53:52

just got to stop. See. Go on

53:54

business. Much under the radar is breaking

53:56

news which is I'm a realist. Be

53:58

breaking news. President

54:00

Biden has said the he's considering a request

54:03

from Australia to drop the prosecution of Julian

54:05

Assange. Psych is athletics and I think Julian

54:07

Assange himself has come and gone under the

54:09

radar from what he has and we don't

54:12

talk about was be go home with him

54:14

enough I think is this the sort of

54:16

broad consensus the he's a terrible dick head?

54:18

I'm in observing the it's is a while

54:20

since I wrote about Sars my position is

54:23

always been his a terrible dick had the

54:25

what's happened to him is actually rather terrible

54:27

because although he's been guilty of terrible irresponsible

54:29

journalism. It is still journalism and I

54:32

think he has been a publisher and fact

54:34

that he's been prosecuted as if he were

54:36

a spice, an enemy and an enemy of

54:38

the state's. not least because said the United

54:40

States at first. I haven't

54:42

said they weren't doing that and I

54:44

think the general system that has been

54:46

incredibly corrosive to us to public trust

54:48

and going to be difficult for people

54:50

who like think that stat that governments

54:52

and systems are are essentially honest because

54:54

they haven't always been and fundamentally just

54:56

of really com a line or in

54:58

terms of press freedom and so I

55:01

think if this if if biden is

55:03

gonna make that decision very simplistic least

55:05

at my they can vulnerable to to

55:07

to attack from from sony who who

55:09

absentee wouldn't have done this I think

55:11

but I think. There's also be the i'm

55:13

is what wanna things that this has put me

55:15

off. as honest as the campaign even though you're

55:17

you're right on the on the on the merits

55:19

of it was was that this sort of sanctification

55:22

of him and I did the sure they did

55:24

if they'd really gone on with like he's an

55:26

asshole but this isn't right yeah I think that

55:28

would have been quite compelling message because people gone.

55:30

oh. Yeah. And we don't

55:32

need to like love the guy. go absolutely to

55:34

that point of principle My any seems man for

55:37

this is under the radar but this this is

55:39

kind of what a lot of people who have

55:41

been following the war and sit on and. Think.

55:44

It's been going on for about a

55:47

year. You've got the Sudanese armed forces

55:49

against the rapid support forces for me

55:51

known as the Genji we'd militia guilty

55:53

of will come into genocide, kill journalists

55:56

and aid workers and so on. And

55:58

the death toll so far. Relative.

56:01

To both Gaza and the last,

56:03

the food crisis and in the

56:05

two thousands a soda surprisingly low

56:07

at the moment for around fifteen

56:09

thousand. That may be to lives.

56:11

but what the real damage so

56:13

far has been is the displacement.

56:15

The number people forced to flee

56:17

the war has now passed eight

56:19

and a half million, many internally

56:21

displaced. Some are seeking refuge aboard

56:23

the You and Eight cr said

56:26

thousands. a crossing borders daily as

56:28

if the emergency had started yesterday.

56:31

I'm I'm not into was about sorry. I

56:33

just was say like it is

56:36

it is very strains that there

56:38

is not more coverage and more

56:40

concerned about what is a massive

56:42

a humanitarian crisis caused by war.

56:51

And. That is the said Ross thank you

56:53

so he thinking as you guys like your

56:55

i much stick around for the extra bit

56:57

of the demon is a monster by corner

57:00

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Oh God What? Now That was written

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presented by Dorian Lynskey, Ross Taylor sorry

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going about and He Gave Risk was

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produced by Chris. Then we know the

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production by probably that. Video Production by Karen

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58:18

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dramatization of how Bbc Newsnight secured it's famous

58:25

interview with Prince Andrei, the one with the

58:27

watching branch of Pizza Express and the inability

58:29

to sweat It aims to say what goes

58:32

into securing and carrying out a major interview.

58:34

None of us to my knowledge has interviewed

58:36

a member of the Royal family accused of

58:38

sex crimes, but we thought we delve into

58:41

own begins you experiences, how we got them,

58:43

how they went house get them right he

58:45

would play as in the Netflix dramas. Judy.

58:49

Little because he's actually seen this

58:51

yes, yes and reviewed it. It's

58:53

interesting. But. Poll interesting

58:55

because it's both. Basically it's about.

58:57

It's a celebration of the journalistic

59:00

arts of landing have begun to

59:02

you by. Know. About doing the big

59:04

interview which is just as well because I see the

59:06

begins he didn't We found out heaps we found out

59:08

he'd like thanks to can't Sweat and ones that a

59:10

pizza and working those are the big top Monson into.

59:12

His remarkable thing about the entry was that it happened

59:15

at all. You. Know he wasn't Frost Nixon.

59:17

Here. There's no killer line. and

59:19

so actually technically. I'm

59:21

he do a big interview and what you don't settle in

59:24

the begins. Here is the big question. There's a reason

59:26

why he wanted to the interview. Traditionally you consider that befell

59:28

you at a folk. Are just some

59:30

degree of failure least not tub thumping all

59:32

the president's men cel Success or the that's

59:34

not quite has a strong represents at my

59:36

founder and the oil meeting. some loss and

59:38

meetings and phone calls and people dying. What

59:41

about now. We. Could do it now.

59:43

What about? I've. Said. Many. As

59:45

As and Kremlin or like a film

59:48

mountain this podcast they will. They will

59:50

dislike the oh no they recordings messed

59:52

up. Oh is that. That

59:55

was a teaser for the bonus bit of this

59:57

week's podcast if he would like to him more

59:59

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a busy whales out there once she woken

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dm then you've got another. Playlist us to

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get through. The News: Honestly, who's got

1:00:28

the time sweat, pay for tat

1:00:30

that when you podcast comes in?

1:00:32

I because this your first funny

1:00:34

toll of all the best bits

1:00:36

of the papers, to the biggest

1:00:38

skips to the weirdest headlines, to

1:00:40

the definitely not made up showbiz

1:00:42

cassettes and it's out every weekday

1:00:44

with me. Miranda Sawyer and assists

1:00:46

have guests including top comedians Marcus

1:00:48

Brigstocke. Smartest. What's your favorite thing

1:00:50

about paper? Cut said the pardons.

1:00:53

Is obviously the funds have been We

1:00:55

we go see the papers and you

1:00:58

see what's creative beauties. the people who

1:01:00

work particularly in the tabloids have come

1:01:02

up with often. I think it's pun

1:01:04

first then story but and I've got

1:01:06

one find a story. Demise this but

1:01:08

he's really fun. part of the podcast

1:01:10

to or see what they've come up

1:01:12

with every day especially the daily star

1:01:14

of the Star Browser Love animals. So.

1:01:16

If you want to be on, suffer the

1:01:18

news and have amassed while you're doing it,

1:01:20

take the test every day on your favorite

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1:01:25

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1:01:27

in the middle of a busy day?

1:01:29

That's because we read the papers so

1:01:31

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