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0:58

now, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm

1:02

pondering whether I should share this, but it

1:04

is just to play a fact that my

1:07

youngest child was born nine months after a

1:09

certain football team got promoted. Welcome

1:11

to Off Air. I

1:25

have got one more. Can we just say one more thing about

1:27

spitting? Yes. From

1:29

Jay, who just says, I don't

1:31

care which sex produces more saliva. And

1:34

I think we'll give Jay, maybe not quite the

1:36

final word, but almost, use a

1:38

handkerchief. There's no excuse. Keep

1:40

a hanky in your shorts, tucked in

1:42

your nickel egg, wherever. Or

1:45

if swimming, get out and deal

1:47

with it hygienically, or swallow. Keep

1:49

your germs to yourself. Spitting

1:52

should have become a taboo in the modern

1:54

age, like defecating in the street. We

1:57

do no one any favours, looking for

1:59

justification for battle. behaviour. PS

2:01

my mum used to boil handkerchiefs in Persil

2:04

separate from the dishcloth. Thank

2:06

you Jay. Excellent. It's

2:08

definitely Persil that everybody

2:10

is boiling their dishcloth

2:13

in and I think that is the

2:15

contributing factor to the really weird smell.

2:17

Yeah. Although we had another email referencing

2:19

Ajax. Do you remember that? Oh Ajax.

2:24

Now that was brutal. Powerful stuff. Very

2:27

from memory. Came in a

2:29

cylindrical. Is that the right

2:31

word? Yes it is. Well yeah it

2:33

looked like a big salt cellar. That's

2:35

right. But don't confuse the two

2:38

kids. No don't do that. Now why

2:40

did we call Ajax? Why is it

2:42

okay to call Ajax Ajax but you can't

2:44

call the stadium Ajax? You

2:46

have to say that you've that that

2:49

you know our fantastic young lads are

2:51

playing at the Ajax stadium don't you?

2:54

You can't say Ajax but nobody reached

2:56

under their kitchen cupboard and said oh

2:58

we've run out of Ajax. Similarly I

3:01

had no idea that nice biscuits were from

3:03

France. Were from Nice. Just what?

3:07

We've got all continental. I tell you

3:09

what we're really showing off our

3:11

very very very constant but what's inside.

3:14

But let's get back down to us because that's

3:17

where we belong really isn't it? Well we

3:19

interviewed an astronaut didn't we yesterday? Oh we

3:21

did. Rosemary Coogan. Has just

3:24

graduated from the European Space Agency.

3:26

Still part of that. Yeah I

3:28

was talking about that but clearly they haven't bit us

3:31

out of that at least. Well we

3:33

didn't vote to leave it did we?

3:36

I don't know. There's no Brexit in space.

3:38

Well I think there are lots of things

3:40

in space though aren't there? But Rosemary was

3:42

an incredibly sorted young woman wasn't she? As

3:45

you would have to be. I mean there'd

3:47

be no room at the International

3:49

Space Station for two

3:52

flailing, rambling, middle-aged

3:54

birds like ourselves. It just

3:56

what would we do in

3:58

the International Space Station? I

4:00

keep forgetting things. I'd need to make a list then

4:02

I won't be able to find the list But I

4:05

find the I find the lack of gravity

4:08

That is the issue isn't it that I would

4:10

find that more than challenging I wouldn't

4:12

want to be locked in a international

4:14

space station with lots of other people

4:17

who I didn't know Expected

4:19

to be there for months. Well, I think they

4:21

oh I see you because you go there that would

4:23

be Rosemary's fate Wouldn't it and I mean that

4:25

in a good way to go to the ISS Yeah,

4:28

and there will be people there who've established a that

4:30

way away of living together Yeah,

4:32

and then she would arrive with presumably

4:34

a couple of others and start afresh

4:36

Yeah, but but you're meeting people from

4:38

all over the world. Aren't you? Yeah

4:40

in a quite strange circumstance And if

4:42

somebody's got a bit of an ick

4:45

Then you're done for aren't you? Mmm. I

4:48

don't want to I like ick but there is a nick in one

4:50

of our emails today Yeah,

4:52

how do you feel about the term ick and I'm

4:56

quite new to it. I'm still trying it out.

4:59

I got that sense. Could you stop

5:01

now, please? You've tried it and

5:03

I don't Especially

5:06

with the children things that you do have

5:08

to say them out loud until you realize

5:10

I think for instance I only ever ever

5:13

use the word paying once I

5:17

So stupid coming out of my

5:19

mouth. Yes, it would sound absurd coming from either

5:22

of us It's not just you don't worry about

5:24

it. Have you ever called anybody blad?

5:36

And can we just say hello to mord because she

5:38

is worried about expensive

5:40

tickets At the playhouse,

5:42

yes, I'm not gonna say that loud. No,

5:44

I get it and and couldn't find 25

5:47

quid seats But

5:49

do you have any ins on to that?

5:52

Did you get a very late ticket or

5:54

an early ticket or something or return or

5:56

something? Mord is referring to standing at the

5:58

sky's edge. She is which is that

6:00

wonderful musical that I saw last week at

6:02

the Gillian Lynn Theatre in London. And I've

6:04

got to be honest, I have a friend

6:07

who's absolutely mad about theatre and she booked

6:09

these tickets a long, long time ago, so

6:11

I didn't pay for them. But they were

6:14

really good seats. And I think I

6:17

will text her and find out, but I'll be honest with

6:19

you, I think it was over 60 quid. So I mean,

6:22

and that's, I'm not in any way

6:24

suggesting that that is cheap. It isn't.

6:26

It's a big outlay that. I'm

6:29

going in all honesty again to the theatre

6:31

in East West Kensington tonight, the

6:33

Hammersmith Lyric, Britain's leading

6:36

theatre Hammersmith Lyric, apart from

6:38

and including the Crucible, of

6:40

course, in Sheffield, where

6:42

we'll be appearing in a few weeks. And where, Stanley,

6:45

you're going to have to man an inbox that is

6:47

now absolutely full of

6:50

regional theatres in High Dudgeon. It's a great

6:52

separate folder for that. I've got a lot

6:54

of time for the Hammersmith Lyric. And again,

6:56

I'll be honest with you, I do get

6:58

free tickets for the Lyric. Okay. Yeah. But

7:00

tonight, it's the first night of a touring

7:02

production of Minority Report.

7:05

Oh, no, I gather this is very,

7:07

very good. It's been on already in the

7:09

East Midlands. It's gone down a storm there.

7:11

And I'm really looking forward to it. It's

7:13

the Philip K Dick short story that's been

7:15

adapted by the actor, David Haig. Yeah. Well,

7:17

that sounds good. Wasn't it also a film?

7:19

A film? Thomas Okulweth. Do

7:24

you remember that film he made where

7:26

he pretended to be Irish? Oh, my

7:28

good God. I don't. What was it

7:30

called? Artemis Fortune to Come Across? Far

7:32

Away Tree or something like that. He was awful

7:35

in it. I mean, he's actually a very good actor,

7:37

I think. But he wasn't very good in this. Okay.

7:40

The action did, I'm afraid, let him

7:42

down. While we're talking about trips out,

7:44

I went to see young Matt Chawley,

7:47

our colleague. He gives the impression to people,

7:49

and I'm glad it does, that we are

7:51

very much socially active. I got home last

7:53

night and I did say to the late

7:55

in life love interest, I just can't go

7:57

out during the week. I really probably can't

7:59

do that. I'm just an American. You're a beaten

8:01

woman. It was 10 past 10. I

8:05

can't go out in a week. I can't go out in a

8:07

week. But if

8:09

you get a chance to see Matt's show, I

8:11

think he's got one left in Line Regis, but

8:13

I'm sure he will come back because he's definitely

8:16

sold out quite a lot of his stuff onto.

8:18

And if you like your politics, it's

8:20

just a feast. I haven't ever seen a show like

8:22

that, which just

8:24

completely leans into the nerdery

8:27

of the political world and the manifestos

8:30

and the funny pledges that people have made

8:32

and all that kind of stuff. And also,

8:34

he just does a really good job of

8:37

berating the audience. And

8:39

some people can just do that, can't they? They, you

8:41

know, and the audience lap it up. They just want

8:43

to be spanked more and more and more. Yeah,

8:47

that does have its fans. Jonathan

8:49

Pye does that too. Does he? Yeah,

8:51

just absolutely attacks. Yeah. You

8:54

can almost see people in the audience puffing

8:56

themselves up so they get noticed as opposed

8:58

to shrinking back in their seats, which

9:01

I think is a tendency sometimes in

9:03

immersive theatre. Perhaps

9:05

that's something else we can explore over the coming

9:07

weeks. Yes, I'm

9:09

sorry, I've missed Matt live. I think he'll be

9:11

able to, I'm sure he'll

9:13

be doing more. I'm sure he will. He got

9:16

a week for Lime Regis. A place has seen

9:18

very little action since Jane Austen went down there

9:20

and had an incident on the cob. Yep. I'm

9:23

just going to have to check with Matt

9:25

that it is Lime Regis. Otherwise, again, we've

9:27

got an email inbox full and a file

9:30

marked he's not coming to Lime Regis.

9:33

Oh, it's so well thought through this, isn't it? The whole

9:35

thing. Just to check

9:38

in, it was Sir Thomas Beecham, the Morris dancer

9:40

and incest quote. This one comes from Dep who

9:42

says, on the Masonic thread that still seems to

9:44

be running, I was always told that the Masons

9:46

were very secretive. I was about 12 when

9:49

my grandfather died and I was allowed to

9:51

look in the tin case. Now that's an

9:53

upper case letters. Yeah. That's probably what we

9:56

should be calling the briefcases at his

9:58

regalia. Gold trend. and fash,

10:00

apron and cuffs, thinking

10:03

that must be the secret and all

10:05

they wore at the lodge meeting. Hello.

10:08

Well that would be fruity lodge nights, wouldn't

10:10

it? That's

10:13

back almost on the nature of the theme,

10:15

which I'm still disturbed by. I

10:18

found the email that mentions Ix. This

10:21

is in the says, your, and this is by the way,

10:23

I didn't know people did

10:25

this, your conversation about briefcases brought back

10:27

memories. When I was a teenager, my

10:30

mum got herself a briefcase with two

10:32

three dial combination locks because she said

10:34

it was the only way she could

10:36

keep some things for herself. She

10:39

hadn't realised my patience though. Going

10:41

from 0 0 0 up to 999 on both locks wouldn't

10:43

take too long. Is

10:48

that mathematically true, by the way? Say

10:50

that again. She

10:53

hadn't realised my patience. Going

10:55

from 0 0 0 up to 999 on both locks wouldn't take

10:57

too long. So

11:01

this is someone trying to open their mother's secret briefcase.

11:03

Oh, it would take forever. I don't know, I mean

11:05

I'm no statistician, but I would have thought so too.

11:08

But anyway, I said probability, isn't it? Yeah. So,

11:10

is it your special field? No. You've

11:12

been keeping it hidden for a long space travel, is my

11:14

special field. I've already determined that. Anyway, according to our

11:17

emailer, she says, I've got to open in no time.

11:26

I realised that teenage disgust that

11:28

the code was the date when

11:31

my baby brother, her favourite child,

11:34

had been conceived. Oh,

11:36

whoa. 1 4 0

11:38

3 9 5. Now everyone with that

11:40

birth date is going to be cringing.

11:44

But that's not the birth date. That's a conception

11:46

date. Yes, sorry, yes, you're absolutely

11:48

right. Have you committed to memory your conception

11:50

dates? I

11:52

don't know, I haven't, no. Well, possibly not,

11:54

although obviously you can sort of semi-work it

11:57

out, can't you? Because

11:59

when you go for your own... you know when

12:01

they say your period,

12:03

so your pregnancy is

12:05

dated from the start

12:07

of the day of your last period. That's

12:09

right isn't it? Sweet cheeks, you were

12:11

13 weeks on women's hour or whatever it was.

12:15

Years. Yeah so when people say, when

12:17

you go and you say you're six weeks

12:19

pregnant, it has been

12:21

six weeks since the start of your

12:23

last period. Right. Hang

12:26

on. Yes. Oh my god. How

12:29

did I get pregnant? Make

12:34

another file Kate. Incoming.

12:37

Literally. Right. So

12:40

you don't really know. No

12:43

it is. Your pregnancy

12:46

doesn't start on the day you discover

12:48

your pregnancy. No. You're right

12:50

of course. Yeah. So right.

12:53

How though does that explain

12:55

that our correspondent was able to

12:57

crack the code of the day?

12:59

On her mother's, this is one

13:01

for the many mathematicians listening, on

13:03

her mother's briefcase. I

13:07

tell you what. Two, three dial

13:09

combination. What I was so worrying

13:11

about that is if she knew

13:13

the conception date of the favoured

13:15

child because it was openly celebrated

13:18

in the yearly calendar. I

13:20

mean that would be ridiculous. And I

13:22

said, okay kids, special treat,

13:24

we'll have a lovely delivery night.

13:27

She's celebrating your concerns. I

13:29

think we wouldn't see the back

13:31

of them just be out the door so

13:33

far. I'm pondering

13:35

whether I should share this but it is just to believe

13:37

that my youngest child was

13:39

born nine months after a certain football

13:41

team got promoted. Anyway

13:47

it's not something she

13:49

needs to think about. And

13:51

they've been relegated since. I was going to

13:53

say at least it's in celebration and

13:56

it's not in commiseration of

13:58

relegation. That would be

14:00

worse. I think for anyone listening who's called

14:02

Relegations. This is a grim moment, isn't it?

14:04

It is. Very much so. But

14:07

there are many people called Promotions. Yeah, gonna

14:09

have a cream cake on

14:12

us. Yep. Oh dear. Right.

14:14

How do we get on? Apps, I have no

14:16

idea. It's one of the many reasons I dread

14:18

coming to work. Oh,

14:22

lordy, lordy. And right,

14:24

there's a very, there's a sad

14:26

one about weddings and actually lots

14:29

and lots and lots of people's

14:31

experience is really

14:33

in a minor key about family weddings.

14:36

This one comes from Lizzie who

14:38

says, hello, Jennifer, we weren't invited to our

14:40

son's wedding in Las Vegas. And I often wondered

14:43

why. Very sadly, we lost our son

14:45

aged 45. And I'm so

14:47

sorry to hear that, Lizzie. And since then,

14:49

our daughter-in-law has told us why. Her

14:52

parents had a very acrimonious divorce some years

14:54

earlier and apparently couldn't be trusted to be

14:56

in the same room without a lot of

14:58

trouble. So neither sets of parents were invited

15:01

in order to keep the peace. I'm

15:03

very sad about this. I'd love to

15:05

hear your view. Well, I mean, I

15:07

can't speak for Jane and Lizzie but

15:09

I'm just incredibly sad for you

15:12

because obviously you've been excluded from something through

15:14

doing no wrong at all. Yeah, that's horrible.

15:16

And then not to have in your memory

15:18

bank, when your son

15:20

has died as well is an

15:23

absolute double whammy, isn't it? So

15:25

I'm so sorry to hear that. And

15:27

I suppose it's worth knowing

15:29

stories like that, isn't it? Just

15:32

because if you're the bride and groom

15:34

or a potential bride and groom who

15:36

are listening to this thinking, oh, I

15:38

wonder whether I shouldn't invite parents because

15:40

the other lot might go off and

15:42

stuff. Maybe just be bold

15:45

and invite the nice parents who aren't gonna go off.

15:47

Maybe don't punish them for somebody

15:49

else's experience. But it's difficult to

15:52

do. So, you know, I'm

15:55

not saying that that's what you should do but I'll pop

15:57

it in the mix and give it a little bit

15:59

of a think. I know there are all sorts

16:01

of reasons why couples get divorced, but I

16:03

do think if you can just play nicely

16:05

at family occasions afterwards, is

16:07

that such a big ask? Do

16:11

you really have to keep it all going

16:13

for decades? I know it depends on what's

16:15

caused the divorce, I absolutely get it. But

16:17

if you've had what you

16:19

might call a bog standard separation and

16:21

divorce, surely if there are

16:23

children involved for one day, for just a couple

16:26

of hours, you could be alright with each other,

16:28

couldn't you? I think

16:30

you just have to try and find a gear

16:32

that you can put yourself into, which

16:35

just motors through the day. Because on that occasion, it

16:37

isn't about you. It's not about you. Or your boring

16:39

divorce. It's about the other people. And

16:41

it's one of those days where you don't really know

16:43

until you get there what you need from your parents.

16:47

And sometimes you need quite a lot from your parents on

16:49

that day, and you're thinking beforehand, I

16:52

don't, but when you get there you do. So,

16:55

we'll definitely take some more about weddings. We have

16:57

got an email special coming up, haven't we? Well,

16:59

and we really need one because we're

17:01

actually, you might be

17:03

surprised here, we're quite nice people, and

17:06

we actually really feel for

17:08

those people who have emailed. Some of you

17:10

absolutely witty and erudite and

17:12

telling us all sorts of incredible things

17:15

about your lives and your experiences, and we just

17:17

cannot read them all out. So,

17:19

trust me, we do want to. We

17:21

really do. And so that's why

17:23

we are planning another email special in very,

17:25

very short time. And we might put some

17:28

more email specials in as well. Here's

17:31

a millennial on the subject of elopement. I

17:34

was so sad to listen to the young family who've

17:36

kept their marriage a secret due to the affordability of

17:38

a wedding. But I'm afraid

17:40

the opinions of parents on this issue matter not.

17:44

Many of my millennial friends will never own

17:46

homes and will never marry due to the

17:48

cost. And we're building our

17:50

lives and families in a very scary

17:52

and uncertain time. Millennial

17:54

children of boomers eloping may be just

17:57

one of those things, like

17:59

how we spend all our lives. our house deposit money

18:01

on avocados, that boomers will just

18:03

have to get over. Let us have micro weddings,

18:05

let us have a tiny village hall tea afterwards,

18:07

and maybe you'll get to be a part of

18:10

it. It feels like boomers are

18:12

the only ones with any money to

18:14

actually spend on these things. For

18:17

what it's worth, I have two under five, and

18:19

when it comes time for me to shuffle off,

18:22

I hope that the families my children

18:24

have built, however they may look, are full

18:26

of love, respect, kindness and laughter. I

18:28

give not two hoots, so they go about it,

18:30

as long as they feel loved and respected. It's

18:35

a point of view, and we do

18:37

acknowledge I am a boomer, you're not.

18:39

I'm just a boomer by about six

18:41

months. Very, very rude. Well, no, I'm

18:43

being kind to you and hard on

18:46

myself, because I don't think anyone likes a boomer. I

18:48

was only six months old when I stopped being a

18:50

boomer, so don't hold too much against me. So what's

18:52

the cut off point for boomer? Okay.

18:56

Yeah. So I think the point about

18:58

the money is so valid,

19:00

though, and shouldn't be overlooked. And these

19:02

days you can probably if you've if

19:04

you've got enough money for a decent

19:06

wedding, then that is money that your

19:08

child also really needs for accommodation. And

19:12

I think I

19:14

think a lot of weddings must go by the

19:16

by these days, because you just need to save

19:19

up for a deposit for a half. You

19:21

know, the idea that you're going to spend all of that

19:23

on just one day to create

19:25

a happy memories or whatever it is,

19:27

I can fully understand why now you

19:29

go, actually, I just really need the

19:31

money instead. Do you have

19:34

a view on this? Neil says now

19:36

that Hugh Edwards has finally left the

19:38

BBC, who do you think should anchor

19:40

election night? Obviously, it's time for

19:42

a woman. But do you think the front

19:44

runners include any women? That's from Mr.

19:47

Lee, who's on Solent, or

19:49

it could be from Mr. Leon

19:52

Solent. That's also true. Yeah.

19:55

Well, who do you think the front runners

19:57

are? So we're we're we're only talking about

19:59

the BBC. here aren't we? The channel

20:01

4 has got a line up

20:03

it's already announced. I saw that under breaking

20:06

news. Actually it's actually a chintered

20:08

in that. Yeah that's a show biz.

20:15

Okay not breaking news. I felt a little bit cheated

20:18

when I clicked on that. And

20:22

a good booking. Yeah so most people

20:24

will be listening to Times Radio's coverage.

20:26

Well not, I think they will because

20:28

the aforementioned Matt Chawley. So I'll be

20:30

going to bed with Matt that night

20:32

most definitely. But

20:34

in all fairness I will watch a bit

20:37

of telly and I don't, ultimately it doesn't

20:39

matter one jot. Do you know what I

20:41

was quite interested in in Andrew Billen's piece

20:43

in the Times today? Welcome back to

20:45

our regular visitor on Message Mandy. And

20:48

Andrew Billen wrote his app

20:50

Free to Download with Mandy.

20:54

Yes it is. It's an easy to

20:56

download. My Times Radio app is free

20:58

easy to download and free

21:00

of charge. Mandy thank

21:03

you. Okay this is the script at this bit.

21:07

So Andrew Billen in his piece wrote that when

21:09

David Dimbleby was replaced and of course he

21:12

got that job as election anchor on the

21:14

hereditary principle because his dad had also done

21:16

it. And he also got that job when

21:18

he was 12. He

21:20

was also very good. Yeah that's the other

21:22

thing in absolute fact. But anyway

21:24

that job was eventually given to Hugh

21:26

Edwards and when that happened according to

21:29

Andrew Billen David Dimbleby did not contact

21:31

Hugh Edwards to pass on any kind of

21:33

message of congratulations. Oh okay. Now we don't

21:35

know that's 100% true do we? Although I

21:37

think it's unlikely that Andrew would have

21:39

included it if he had believed that

21:42

it was anything other than true. And

21:44

that's a bit sad I think. Yeah

21:47

anyway I mean the way that

21:49

they went on about it you would have thought there'd

21:51

be a great big ceremony with good boarding. Official

21:55

music commission for the hand. And

21:59

indeed a coronation. Yeah, to

22:01

be held at the Abbey. But I

22:03

think you're right with your point that

22:05

actually we just need a little bit

22:08

more fact and data on whether or

22:10

not people are genuinely choosing to watch

22:12

the news because it's presented one night

22:14

by so-and-so and another night

22:17

by so-and-so and you

22:19

know for me Personally,

22:21

I just don't mind who presents the

22:23

news. I think it's nicer news when

22:26

Fiona Bruce does it But I

22:28

don't do not tune into the news When

22:33

it's not Fiona Bruce and

22:37

You know you my my desire to watch the

22:39

news is based on what's in the news James

22:41

So when it's a really hefty news day Then

22:44

I will want to watch the 10 o'clock news

22:46

and sometimes when it's not I'll just go and

22:48

read the news instead We're so spoiled for choice

22:50

now. Yeah where we get the headlines do what

22:52

you buy reading it is You don't just get

22:54

a scripts and then just read it out

22:56

loud Does the

22:58

late-life love interest have to listen to this

23:00

very very much so key part of our

23:02

relationship? Right,

23:07

but in general have to say mr. Leon Solon neither of

23:09

us seem to have formed a do here I

23:11

actually think Laura Koonsberg is actually

23:14

we know to be a very she's very nice

23:16

person, isn't she? She's a really nice person Jane

23:18

and I hope that she

23:20

gets you know A big big big

23:22

desk of presentation because she really

23:25

knows her stuff and she's good to people She's

23:27

one of those people who you know, she's just

23:29

pleasant and I know that sounds like it's

23:31

not in any way damning with Faint praise but some people

23:33

who've got to that level are not very nice And

23:36

she is not one of those people. No, no, I

23:39

she deserves to be there. She does deserve to be that

23:41

Clive Myron big fan of Clive Rita

23:44

Chakrabarti, I've got other people

23:46

on my fridge who else

23:48

do I like from news?

23:50

I like him from news Jane Hill. I

23:53

like her from news. I like news with

24:00

you. It's better when Fiona tells us about

24:02

it. It's just nice. Fiona Bruce's

24:04

news. This

24:10

is why it's so ridiculous. It's not their news,

24:12

is it? No. No, it's not.

24:15

Okay. Right. I'll

24:17

tell you what, Mr. Leon. So if you do

24:19

want to start a petition for Jane and I

24:22

to anchor election nights back at the

24:24

BBC, then that would be great.

24:26

Let us know how that goes. Yeah.

24:29

I've never been to Leon Solent, have you? No,

24:32

I don't think I have. Well, maybe I have. I mean,

24:35

the Solent, I've been to a lot

24:38

of places around the

24:40

Solent. Oh, right. It's

24:42

the show Judith Chalmers never dared to make.

24:45

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26:01

I am pleased that you're going to

26:03

be told him to Hadley. I've just

26:05

finished listening to audiobooks. Good girls. I

26:07

wanted to listen to her as my

26:09

good friend's daughter is currently ill with

26:11

anorexia and I wanted to gain some

26:13

sort of understanding of what they will

26:15

going for. I thought was an excellent

26:17

book. I can also hard recommend a

26:19

previous book of Has Courthouse of Glass

26:21

which is one of my favorite books

26:23

of the a couple of years ago

26:25

and which my then sixteen year old

26:27

daughter said I should read and I

26:29

agree that is hazardous is also terrific.

26:32

Focus on this is some another the

26:34

says I'm the mother of two cities

26:36

making really good progress in her recovery

26:38

from anorexia and I was pleased to

26:40

hear that you're talking to Hardly Freeman

26:42

this week. We rarely talk about the

26:44

fact that people can and do recover,

26:46

but I firmly believe it is possible

26:48

with the right help at the right

26:50

time. The trouble is that far too

26:52

many people don't get the help they

26:54

need and Mom's like me end up

26:56

running a full inpatient facility in our

26:58

own homes sometimes for is. One

27:01

of my greatest fear was that

27:03

my relationship with my daughter's would

27:05

be permanently damaged by are endless

27:07

daily conflicts. But I am so

27:09

happy to report after three years

27:11

of hard work and steady weight

27:13

gain by such kindness and her

27:15

trademark sense of humor has finally

27:17

returned. And let's hear from Hadley

27:19

Freeman: a book is called Good

27:21

Girls, A Study and a Story

27:23

As Anorexia. Many of you will

27:25

know Hadley as a fantastically ah

27:28

erudite and well informed and just.

27:30

Brilliant. The wittiest well columnist at

27:32

the Sunday Times a hostage glasses

27:34

supreme bespoke about her own family

27:36

which oversees people who already enjoyed

27:39

that. This is a very ruler

27:41

account of her own journey through

27:43

anorexia when she was in her

27:45

teens. I asked Hadley through the

27:48

book was for well I run

27:50

said because I wanted to help

27:52

parents Really is so I was

27:54

thinking of because I have some

27:57

unique perspective. I think of having

27:59

been quite. The beer by having

28:01

fully recovered. And now having children

28:03

of my own. So I feel like I've

28:05

got multi perspectives going on so I wanted

28:07

to parents. I wanted also to like girls

28:09

and women with anorexia out there. Now they

28:12

are not alone and there is to the

28:14

health of it's not just a cliche the

28:16

doctor says and also to help those you

28:18

just don't understand the illness clay feel there's

28:20

so many misconceptions about sets. I wanted to

28:22

clarify some of those. It. Is

28:24

important to say I think that

28:26

children or the desire for children

28:28

neither of those those things can

28:30

be a cool cool cool com

28:32

nice efficient apple. Definitely not. I

28:34

think for me was a bunch

28:36

of things happening at the same

28:38

time and the fact that I

28:40

had children so late but is

28:42

also significant because I I just

28:44

needed than decade. Really to fully recover.

28:47

And it happened that by the time I

28:49

had my children are the first to at

28:51

thirty eight I was ready to get better.

28:55

You do describe in the book both

28:57

when you think it started if I

28:59

can put it that way and also

29:01

the moment when you thought that you

29:04

wouldn't let it dominate your life and

29:06

an article about them both? That's right

29:08

with you. But can we start with

29:11

the go in p and and how

29:13

size he has So I had just

29:15

turned fourteen. it was May Nineteen Ninety

29:18

Two and I was in P. We're.

29:20

All in our little in a P E skirts

29:22

and there was a girl in. My class next

29:24

to me who was just one of those

29:26

max leave a tiny girls and I said

29:28

to her or without really thinking is it

29:30

hard to buy clothes when you're so small

29:32

and she said yes I wish I was

29:34

normal like you. And that just

29:37

completely is like a bomb went off

29:39

in my brain and I stopped eating

29:41

and by September I was in hospital

29:43

for the first of nine times. That

29:46

was it. Really. I hesitate to use

29:48

the word simple, but was it really

29:50

like that? I was really like that,

29:52

but it was not that simple. So

29:54

there's a definite difference between. the trigger

29:57

and a cause that was the trigger

29:59

that the causes were obviously multifaceted and

30:01

going back years and years. It was

30:03

not that which made me anorexic, that's

30:05

what pushed me over the edge, but

30:07

it could have been anything that pushed

30:09

me over the edge. And

30:12

the moment many years later when

30:14

you were in hospital and

30:16

you were witnessing a woman, I think in her early

30:19

30s, having frankly what I

30:21

think you describe in the book as a tantrum about

30:23

the amount of butter that was on her

30:26

toast, what was that like? Yes, so again,

30:28

this was something completely quotidian. We all ate

30:30

our meals and our three snacks a day

30:33

together. So we were at this table six

30:35

times a day together. I'd been in hospital

30:37

with this particular woman who I call in

30:39

the book Caroline multiple times.

30:42

And at every meal or snack, somebody would have

30:44

a tantrum about they had the biggest piece of

30:47

pie or they had more mashed potatoes than other

30:49

people or they had more butter. And I

30:52

did it often myself and it never

30:54

had any impact on my thinking. But this

30:56

particular morning, Caroline was crying

30:58

because she felt she had more butter on her

31:00

toast than the rest of us did. And

31:03

I just looked up at her and this thought popped

31:05

into my head that said I will not be having

31:07

tantrums over toast when I'm 32 years old,

31:09

which is how old she was at the time. How

31:12

old are you now Hadley? I'm 45. And you do say that

31:18

you're recovered. But you you also

31:20

acknowledge that it took decades. It

31:24

did take decades and decades. And

31:27

I found other self destructive behaviours

31:29

along the way. And an

31:31

attempt to distract myself from the anorexia,

31:33

I then got very into drugs, which

31:35

lasted throughout my 20s and 30s. And

31:38

then it stopped when I

31:40

had my twins when I was 38. It wasn't

31:43

entirely simple in that I suddenly wasn't,

31:46

you know, skipping through a meadow. But

31:48

I knew when I had them that I

31:50

no longer wanted to be thinking about food

31:52

all the time. I didn't want to be

31:54

sneaking cutting out food, obsessing about how what

31:56

my what I looked like really, because

31:58

I had these two enormous, miss baby boys look

32:01

after all of a sudden. Can

32:03

we just go back then to your

32:06

very first hospital admission? And from my

32:08

perspective as someone who, for whatever

32:10

reason hasn't had an eating disorder,

32:13

I began to feel really troubled

32:15

by, well, I understand

32:17

it must be an essential way of

32:20

treating anorexia, which is these

32:22

really strict timetabled

32:25

eating schedules. I

32:27

eat when I want to because I want to, but

32:30

the idea of enforced eating,

32:32

three big meals, three

32:34

snacks, you couldn't really move

32:36

between those meals, you weren't allowed to

32:38

exercise. It

32:41

seems very rudimental somehow as a way

32:43

of treating this condition. It

32:45

is very rudimental. And in some ways,

32:48

it is still very rudimental. I mean, so I

32:50

was in hospital 30 years ago, so obviously some

32:52

things have changed. But the truth

32:54

is when a girl or

32:56

woman goes into hospital, she is

32:59

extremely underweight. And there is

33:01

she has no ability to tune into what

33:03

her appetite is or what her physical needs

33:05

are until she puts on some weight, all

33:07

the signals in her brain and in

33:10

her hormones are entirely confused. So

33:12

they do need to force feed her. Also,

33:14

this is someone with a mental illness, who

33:17

believes that if they eat, you know, the

33:19

world will end. And so

33:21

the doctors do need to enforce an

33:23

eating regime in order to get these people to

33:25

eat. But that's

33:27

what it is, an eating regime.

33:29

It honestly makes me feel quite

33:32

nauseous to

33:34

think of it that way. And there's

33:36

a is there an element of

33:38

of well, there must be an element of contagion

33:40

amongst the women, they are

33:42

largely women who are there because

33:44

you're competing with each other.

33:47

Oh, very much so. It's not

33:50

just contagion, but competition. So competition about

33:52

who can eat the least who can

33:54

who can sneak an exercise the most.

33:56

So it can be quite bullying, you

33:58

know, the thing with eating disorder. is

34:00

that they're populated largely by girls and women, almost entirely

34:02

by girls and women most of the time. And

34:04

the patients are in for three to six months at

34:06

a time. So it's not like a normal A&E

34:09

ward where it's very transitory, people

34:11

are there for very long periods of time,

34:13

they're together all the time, often sharing the

34:15

same room. So it has a real boarding

34:18

school element to it. And that, you know,

34:20

kind of, you know, results in cliques and

34:22

competition. And aside from all that,

34:24

even if you're on the most supportive ward of

34:26

all time, which I was at times, you're still

34:28

swapping tips. So I learned how to make myself

34:31

sick in hospital. I learned about cutting myself in

34:33

hospital. I learned about laxatives in hospital. I didn't

34:35

do all of those things. But those

34:37

are things I hadn't figured out on my own

34:39

on the outside. And I absolutely learned about them in

34:41

hospital. But without those stays in hospital,

34:43

and there were a lot, I mean, you were in hospital,

34:46

I think for two and a half years out of a

34:48

three year period at one point. Do

34:51

you think you'd have ever ever have got

34:53

better without those stays in hospital? No, I

34:55

couldn't eat on my own at home. I

34:57

know I went back and spoke to some

34:59

of the patients I was in with. And

35:01

a few of them feel that hospital made

35:03

them worse. And I totally understand that. And

35:05

it definitely prolonged some bad habits in me.

35:07

But I could never have put on the

35:09

weight on my own at home. I

35:12

never did put on weight at home. So I

35:14

needed the hospital. The fact is you need to

35:16

you need to physically recover before you can start

35:18

mentally recovering. And that's one of the big problems

35:20

with anorexia. And what at the

35:23

time did you need from your family? What

35:26

I needed was for them to

35:29

the best thing that they did was they

35:31

continue to live their own lives. So in

35:33

my first hospital, which was the Priory, the

35:35

psychiatrist there told my parents that they needed

35:37

to devote their lives to me, you know,

35:39

not going on any holidays, not

35:42

think about anything else but my recovery and I

35:44

became the focus of the family, which

35:46

is the worst thing I think that

35:49

can happen with anorexia. First of all, if she's

35:51

doing it, partly because she wants the attention, which

35:53

sounds like a very pat way of doing it,

35:55

saying it, but I don't I don't even mean

35:57

it in a derogatory way. But if she

36:00

wants people to watch what she's doing. She's

36:03

then being rewarded with her family's attention.

36:05

She's also, it also then creates a

36:07

role in the family where the anorexic

36:09

is the star is the focal point.

36:12

And that's very difficult for other siblings, for

36:14

example, and it creates a very unhealthy family

36:16

dynamic. Once I got into

36:19

the mordly and then the bathroom, my

36:21

psychiatrist there, Janet treasure said, No,

36:23

you will need to continue living your lives. Go on

36:25

holiday, go to Florida, you know, go to

36:27

your book group, you know, spend time with, you know, my

36:29

sister, etc. And then I saw

36:31

that real life was happening without me. And it

36:33

showed me what I was missing in the outside

36:35

world. And it reminded me of what

36:37

my family life was like before I

36:40

started starving myself. And that sort

36:43

of it stopped my family colluding with the

36:45

anorexia, that anorexia was all there is in the world. And

36:48

let's just go back to why

36:50

it is predominantly a female issue.

36:53

Another thing it's really important to emphasize is this

36:55

is not new. It isn't the

36:57

responsibility of Instagram or any other

36:59

form of social media. It's not

37:02

because models are tall and skinny.

37:05

Women have been women and girls have

37:07

been choosing to starve themselves forever.

37:10

It would seem yeah, why

37:12

since the Middle Ages, I mean, you know, so many

37:14

of the saints that we know today with Catherine of

37:16

Siena, Joan of Arc, they, they were almost certainly it's

37:19

hard to say they were anorexic. That's a moderate

37:21

of relatively modern terms, but they stopped eating and that

37:23

was seen as a sign of their holiness. Almost

37:26

every female saint from 800 AD onwards

37:28

is recorded as not eating. For

37:32

a lot of women and girls, and still today,

37:34

they have realized that the only power they have

37:36

to control their lives is through their bodies and

37:38

through by through by not eating. Once

37:41

they stop eating, that's that's when people listen

37:43

to them, particularly teenage girls. It's also important

37:45

to note that anorexia almost invariably sits in

37:47

around puberty times. For me, I was 14,

37:50

absolutely typical time for it to happen. That's

37:52

when your body starts changing. For me, I

37:54

was absolutely terrified of being sexualized and my

37:57

own sexuality. What does that mean? If you

37:59

stop eating, it's stops your periods. I didn't get

38:01

my periods until I was 20. You don't develop breasts.

38:04

Men aren't looking at you. You know, a lot

38:06

of teenage girls still feel like a child inside

38:08

and by not eating, you still look like a

38:10

child. It can also be very

38:12

difficult for a lot of girls as it was for me to

38:14

separate from their mother, which is part of the

38:16

process of being a teenager. And the

38:18

girl might also worry about her mother if she

38:20

leaves her behind. By not eating, she's giving her

38:22

mother a job to stay close to her and also

38:25

making her mother stay close to her if she doesn't

38:27

want to separate. And

38:29

I think people really underestimate how hard it

38:31

is for girls to grow up. And

38:34

anorexia has always been, you know,

38:36

one of the major responses to that. Every

38:39

recorded history, every recorded instance

38:41

of anorexia through history, it always starts between the

38:43

ages of 12 and 16. And

38:47

the version of womanhood that is

38:49

shown to our girls now, what

38:52

they can expect from life. I

38:55

suppose it's not surprising that things

38:58

are getting worse. No, absolutely. And,

39:00

you know, women are held to

39:03

a different standard still in public life. And

39:06

as much as we say, well, women now have all

39:08

these choices, they go to work, they, you know, can

39:10

do this, they can do that. Yes, but they are

39:12

still the emotional caregivers. I think a lot of girls

39:14

today look at their mothers working full

39:16

time, but also still being the full time

39:18

mother, essentially, while the father is still working

39:20

full time. That's

39:22

a lot. You know, that's a

39:25

lot for a girl to take on being a

39:27

woman does not look that much fun. And

39:30

you make a clear link between

39:32

autism and eating disorders,

39:34

and also between gender

39:37

dysmorphia and eating

39:39

disorders. And just

39:42

expand a little bit on that. And you've written

39:44

a great deal in the book about gender dysmorphia.

39:46

But just tell me a bit more about your

39:48

links between that and

39:51

anorexia. So the autism one

39:54

is for a long time, people wondered if

39:56

anorexia was a female form of autism because

39:58

the test for autism were geared,

40:00

have always been geared towards five-year-old boys.

40:02

And little girls are much better at

40:04

mimicking social cues than boys, and therefore

40:06

they can disguise their autism for longer.

40:09

And the theory was that these girls

40:11

with autism get to puberty, and suddenly

40:13

social cues around them get more confused.

40:15

You know, dynamics between girls in school

40:18

become more complicated, their body starts changing,

40:20

and their response to that might

40:22

be to become anorexic. It's a way of

40:24

cutting yourself off from the world, hiding.

40:27

You can hide behind your hair, like a lot of anorexics

40:29

do, pulling their hair down. And

40:31

now most eating disorder wards, I believe,

40:33

in this country are autism-friendly, the ones

40:35

I was on, were all autism-friendly now. Other

40:39

doctors are a bit skeptical about that,

40:41

and they say, no, the symptoms that

40:43

a girl manifests when she's starving, they

40:45

look like autism, but that's just because

40:47

she's underweight, you know, such as lack

40:49

of empathy, hiding, you know, inability to

40:51

connect with people. And once you put

40:53

this on weight, then those will dissipate.

40:56

But I think there is some kind of

40:58

crossover, certainly, not for me, but for some.

41:01

With gender dysmorphia, I

41:03

really didn't want to talk about it in this book because I feel

41:05

like I've written about it so much. But the

41:08

more I talk to doctors, I

41:11

realize that there is a crossover. And the thing

41:13

that really caught my eye was as I was

41:15

working on this book, a report came out saying

41:17

that JID, the now-closed former youth clinic for gender

41:20

in this country, and he says, clinic for gender,

41:24

the patient makeup was now 70% girls aged 12 to 15. And

41:29

I thought, that's interesting, that's getting up close

41:31

to a needing disorder ward is like. So

41:33

I went off and talked to various ex-JID

41:35

doctors, as well as child psychologists and

41:38

neuropsychologists. And they said,

41:40

yes, you know, that the feelings

41:42

that power anorexia for teenage

41:44

girls are now being expressed through gender dysmorphia

41:46

in the sense that they're binding their breasts,

41:49

they're trying to look asexual, they're

41:51

hiding, you know, they're scared of

41:54

becoming women, they're scared of being

41:56

sexualized. All these things are

41:58

now being expressed through a desire. via foy

42:00

and there is a clear crossover

42:03

and there's also a huge comorbidity

42:05

between when you look

42:07

at the patients at Chids, the number who came

42:09

in with eating disorders and the number who were

42:11

also diagnosed for autism. So if you think of

42:14

anorexia, gender dysphoria and

42:16

autism as three circles and overlapping like

42:18

a Venn diagram, some girls will have two,

42:20

some girls will have three and some girls

42:22

will just have one. And

42:25

the link as well with porn and the

42:27

fact that we have a pornified

42:29

nation effectively, don't we? And I don't

42:31

know about you but I'm still I'm

42:34

waiting genuinely for a prominent

42:36

politician to really grasp this issue

42:40

and actually talk about the impact of all

42:42

this on our children and indeed

42:44

on all of us, not just our

42:47

children. Yes, I am genuinely shocked when

42:49

I see what's on online porn.

42:51

I am not a porn fan, I'm

42:53

not saying that like some kind of moral

42:55

high mistress, I'm just very good at using

42:58

my own imagination, thank you very much. And when

43:00

I look at things like you porn

43:02

or Pornhub and stuff like the sex

43:04

on those sites is so unbelievably

43:06

violent. Like you and I grew up Jane, where

43:09

porn was you know a big

43:11

boobed woman you know on the front of

43:13

the daily sport or something and like smiling and

43:15

looking all wholesome. When you look at

43:17

Pornhub now, it's literally things like bang

43:19

her guts out and you know

43:21

men choking women from behind and it

43:24

looks absolutely terrifying. And if I

43:26

was a girl today, I would

43:28

be even more scared of sex than I

43:30

was when I was a teenager, when I

43:32

was absolutely terrified of it anyway, when it

43:35

just sounded like something painful. Now it is

43:37

painful. Now people expect it to be painful.

43:39

And I think you cannot overestimate

43:42

how this would affect young teenagers who are

43:45

all looking at it, who are carrying it

43:47

around all the time in their pockets. It's

43:49

no longer something on the top shelf of

43:51

a news agent. It's all the time on

43:54

them. As soon as you hand your child

43:56

a smartphone, you're giving them access to 24

43:58

hour bullying at porn. I

44:00

mean, that is what teenagers get

44:02

on their smartphones. And

44:05

I think that absolutely confuses

44:07

people's ideas of their sexuality,

44:10

their gender, and their sense

44:12

of self. It cannot have any

44:14

other effect but that. Hadley

44:16

Freeman and the book is Good Girls,

44:18

a Story and a Study of Anorexia.

44:20

Now I know lots of people listening

44:23

will have experiences of

44:25

anorexia and I very much hope of

44:27

recovery from it too. But

44:30

we'd love to hear from you. It's such a

44:32

difficult area this and hard to

44:34

talk about if you don't know too much

44:36

about it and you've been outside the experience

44:38

yourself. So you can tell us what you

44:41

think about what Hadley had to say. It's

44:44

Jane Anfie at Times.radio.

44:47

And I think one of the points

44:49

that Hadley makes so well is

44:51

just that one about the

44:54

teenage anxiety of turning into

44:56

an adult woman. And

44:59

I think we really, really

45:01

need to talk more openly

45:03

about that. And

45:05

for us in our generation, find

45:07

ways of making

45:09

being an adult woman less frightening,

45:12

more appealing, and

45:14

less kind of mysterious really.

45:18

And sometimes I think we don't do

45:20

that. We don't clock that enough. And

45:22

it's not about saying young

45:26

women need to be empowered and they need to

45:28

be strong and they need to take on

45:30

the fight and they need to firm

45:33

up towards the patriarchy and all of that kind

45:35

of stuff. It's saying

45:37

the exact opposite, isn't it? Which can sometimes

45:39

feel like a foolish thing to say, but

45:41

to say you can find your

45:44

place in the world without

45:46

needing all of that armor

45:48

around you. And

45:51

do you understand what I'm saying?

45:53

Or maybe the world could change

45:55

to allow you to

45:57

feel safer and to navigate it more easily.

46:00

very much so, but for

46:02

as long as it's not that world,

46:04

and it is not that world yet,

46:07

I do sometimes think we pile a

46:09

whole lot onto very, very

46:11

young girls about how difficult it is

46:13

to navigate the world as a woman.

46:16

I can really understand how

46:19

sometimes that

46:21

fear must feel really, really

46:23

overwhelming. I am not an expert on

46:26

eating disorders, and I am not an

46:28

expert on the anxiety of young women.

46:31

I know just as an older woman, that

46:34

those conversations need to be

46:37

had. We need

46:39

to find positives to pass down to

46:41

the younger generation. And

46:43

sometimes it's hard to know what to

46:45

say without it being trite or

46:47

feeling that you're kind of letting the sisterhood down.

46:50

I really would like to hear from

46:52

other people who have been there, because

46:55

I just feel like I've

46:57

been around it, but I haven't lived through

47:00

it. And the stories of recovery are

47:02

very, very, very, very important because there

47:04

isn't one path out of it that

47:07

suits everybody, but there must

47:09

be something that rings true in some

47:11

people's experience, and you just need to

47:13

be hearing that, don't you? Yeah,

47:16

you definitely do. So thank

47:18

you to Hadley. That book is not always

47:21

easy to read actually, but

47:23

it's an incredibly important book, and I

47:25

really do hope that it offers hope

47:28

to everybody who's been always

47:31

perhaps going through that experience. Thank

47:34

you very much for listening. We will be back tomorrow.

47:51

We're bringing the shutters down in

47:54

another episode of the internationally acclaimed

47:56

podcast, Offer with Jane Garvey and

47:58

Feedle. Time's Radio

48:00

producer is Rosie Cutler and the

48:02

podcast executive producer is Henry Trine.

48:04

But don't forget that you can get

48:06

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48:08

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48:11

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