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1:15

Of adrenalin in the building today. well

1:17

we should explain more yeah but by

1:20

the time this case out everyone might

1:22

have enough. Yeah was like says a

1:24

lot of gentlemen building because everybody's hearing

1:27

very heavy reamers. the prime minister is

1:29

gonna go to see the king the

1:31

so I guess is what he does

1:34

his own cabinet been meetings afternoon delayed

1:36

from yeah thanks of is in vienna

1:38

and then apparently he's gonna guns he

1:41

the king of kind of parliament and

1:43

gonna much emphasis on the fourth potentially.

1:46

At that I mean I'm here

1:48

in three. Me from so many

1:50

sources say shall we do at

1:53

two different openings to the podcast

1:55

at both of which will remain

1:57

in the podcast enhanced and is

1:59

continuous. one they are. Yeah, choose

2:01

your own podcast election adventure. Oh my

2:03

god Jane, how do you feel about

2:05

a July the 4th election? Aufi, I'm

2:07

just glad to be able to get

2:09

on with my life after that. It

2:12

can't come sooner enough as far as I'm concerned. I

2:15

think it's a great date. We know

2:17

the reasons why. Inflation is going to

2:20

go up again in the autumn. More

2:22

old people will vote. It's in the

2:24

middle of the euros, which

2:26

means we could be feeling very

2:28

proud of England. We could not. That

2:33

is the least firm lily

2:36

pad across the pond. It

2:38

is. It's as

2:40

wobbly as that tripod behind me that

2:42

I just accidentally closed. It is, yeah.

2:44

And also because, you know, it wouldn't

2:47

really depend on the outcome of an

2:49

England game. There might be people who

2:51

felt too unwell to get to that.

2:54

They should maybe just set up a polling

2:56

booth in the back of pubs. Yeah, that's

2:59

a good idea. Like big screen and a polling booth.

3:01

Just pop it in there. Yeah, yeah.

3:03

Could be dangerous. Do you think that the thing

3:05

that has tipped it all over the edge for

3:07

Rishi Sunak is the fact that Johnny Mercer was

3:10

caught bitching about him on the train? Well,

3:12

I have to say actually

3:14

I think this has been brewing

3:17

for a little while. But I

3:20

think hopefully there are

3:23

enough right thinking people

3:25

in his inner circle who have reminded

3:27

him on a daily basis that on

3:29

a daily basis things

3:32

just keep happening for the Tories,

3:34

which sort of I can't imagine it getting worse and

3:36

then the next day it gets worse. You

3:39

know, from Mark Menzies to Johnny Mercer. By the way,

3:41

the thing I'm most discussing about the Johnny Mercer thing

3:43

is not that he was tying

3:46

off his boss openly on his laptop. It's

3:48

that he was taking his shoes and his socks off while he was doing it.

3:50

Barefooted on a train. It's

3:53

an unpleasant evocation of privilege.

3:56

But I think just even that, Johnny Mercer

3:58

is just saying, yeah. I mean, yeah,

4:01

you're hugging the limelight and nobody likes

4:03

you and shove a lot. Yeah. For

4:06

people who've missed the Johnny Mercer story, it

4:08

is exactly as Jane says, he was on

4:11

a train, he was typing a private message,

4:13

but this has become public. Because somebody took

4:15

a picture of it and sent it to

4:18

The Times, which I'm... Thank you very much,

4:20

people of England. And he was basically saying,

4:22

Rishi just needs to let other people who

4:24

are very popular take the stage a little

4:27

bit more and is

4:29

all gone off a bit today. So

4:31

that is the introduction to the podcast, if

4:33

an election has been called, mark the date

4:35

in your diary, it will be July the 4th. You

4:38

don't want to move your dial from the election station. And

4:41

then here is the other introduction to the podcast. So

4:43

Jane, there was meant to be an election

4:45

called today, or possibly there was, and everybody's

4:47

been ferreting around and endlessly looking at their

4:50

phones. You won't find a journalist today who's

4:52

not looking at their phone every three seconds,

4:55

but it's not been called. Is that just

4:57

another deflating disappointment to you? Yeah, I feel

4:59

like they sort of led us on a

5:01

little bit today. I feel like they've teased

5:03

those. I'm very

5:05

happy because I think along with so

5:07

many other people, the holidays seem put

5:09

for a really long time. And I just couldn't

5:11

cope with having to move all of that. Yeah,

5:14

I think that half the reason why many people

5:16

in this building have been on their phones all

5:18

day is they're trying to rebook their flights. Because

5:20

there's an awful lot of people here in late

5:22

June, early July holidays. Just

5:25

trying to see if they can get a refund or

5:27

texting their partners to say, sorry about that. Yeah,

5:30

we'll be on a wall footing, that

5:32

kind of thing. Anyway, if

5:34

it's not happening, it's not happening. There'll

5:38

be another podcast that we'll do, several

5:40

that we'll do, in days

5:42

that have the same kind of feeling about

5:44

them. I just really... I don't want to

5:46

be with all the adrenaline now. No, and

5:48

it would just be enormously helpful to everybody,

5:50

wouldn't it, to just know. And

5:53

even if it was going to be a November

5:55

or December election, I think people

5:57

want to be able to focus their lives on

5:59

that. around something else not be

6:01

constantly distracted and there is always that feeling

6:03

in politics as you head towards an election

6:06

that nothing is being done for the sake

6:08

of it being done everything is being done

6:10

through a prism of how it looks ahead

6:12

of an election and it's wearing it's really

6:15

really wearing to try and digest the news

6:17

through that prism. Well I think what's

6:19

been unusual about this year is that

6:22

you know in the UK we are

6:24

we have an election cycle

6:26

that is meant to be six weeks of

6:28

campaigning and it felt like this campaign has

6:30

gone on since at least last autumn it

6:32

feels more like an American election campaign which

6:34

is just exhausting but the other things you're

6:37

absolutely right I was away one of my friends who

6:39

is with me in Stockholm at the

6:41

weekend is a civil servant and she

6:43

was saying in her department it's impossible

6:45

at the moment because nobody wants to

6:48

make any big decisions because they're all

6:50

waiting for an election or she says

6:52

they're making decisions too quickly because they

6:54

just want to get things through so

6:56

she said actually the business of running

6:58

this country inside government departments is being

7:01

completely upended by this you know sort

7:03

of everyone hedging their bets or rushing.

7:06

Yeah because they're just really not sure what's

7:09

gonna happen. In other

7:11

news I popped off on the way into work

7:13

today because I realized when I was on the

7:15

tube I hadn't scrubbed my teeth and that's a

7:17

terrible thing to come into a public place. I

7:19

know I mean you're far enough back for this

7:21

not to be affecting you because

7:23

I didn't have my glasses on because it had

7:26

been raining and I couldn't see through them. I

7:28

bought fixa dent instead of toothpaste Jane and I

7:30

don't think I should use that should I? That's

7:33

what you want to think dear. I

7:36

think this could be quite comical. I'm

7:38

really glad that I didn't get a pipe. You

7:40

could just get the end of a pipe and just

7:42

stick it on your front teeth wander around with it

7:44

all day your lip curled up round it. It could

7:47

have got so much

7:49

worse. I've gone

7:51

straight to scrub my teeth without

7:53

putting the glasses on and I'm

7:56

what would happen? I've

7:59

never tasted fixa dent. before. But look, I'm going

8:01

to hang on to it kids because nothing goes to

8:03

waste in our house and I'm sure in

8:06

probably only five or ten years time that will

8:08

be very useful. Andrew says,

8:10

dear ladies, as an 82 year old

8:12

male I was astonished at the pre-nut

8:14

waxing couple. Andrew, how delightful to have

8:16

you on board. You're not our key

8:18

demographic but you're very welcome. It

8:20

made me think that had waxing been

8:22

available in Victorian times it might have

8:24

saved the marriage of John Raskin, the

8:27

art critic and philosopher. He was so

8:29

horrified to discover that his new wife,

8:31

dear Effie Gray, had hair where he

8:33

least expected it that the marriage was

8:35

never consummated. Isn't that

8:37

terrible? After annulment Effie

8:40

married John Everett Millay, the wonderful

8:42

pre-Raphaelite painter. His painting Ophelia is

8:44

so beautiful but tragic not only

8:47

the subject but also the poor

8:49

Lizzie Siddell, his model who died of

8:52

an overdose of laudanum at only 32.

8:54

I've mispronounced every name in that. I

8:56

don't know. I'm not going

8:58

to judge. I do want to know was the death by laudanum related

9:04

to the lack of waxing or

9:06

are these two things completely unrelated?

9:09

Well I think it would

9:11

be going somewhere to be

9:13

so terrified of depolation that

9:15

that's the path you take.

9:18

But how awful to be so

9:20

ignorant of the female body that

9:23

it's a horror to understand what it is.

9:25

Well I don't know. I think it just

9:27

shows that there's nothing new under the sun

9:29

because as I was saying yesterday there are enormous

9:32

numbers of young men whose

9:35

first encounter with intimate female

9:37

parts, not in real life, does

9:40

make them think that you know it's normal not

9:42

to have any hair down there.

9:45

And the Victorians do have an awful

9:47

lot to answer for just in terms

9:49

of their obsession with modesty and proereance.

9:51

I feel the weight of it in

9:54

my own life sometimes. I wish it

9:56

wasn't there. Take your crinolines off. better.

10:01

Christine says at last you've given the answer

10:03

to my husband's irritating habits of adopting an

10:05

accent when we travel to France. I

10:08

love this. Being a good secondary modern educated

10:10

lad he never had access to learn a

10:12

language as a family we look at him

10:14

in despair on holidays as he speaks in

10:17

Indian, Greek, American accent. We think

10:19

he thinks he's actually speaking the

10:21

language of that country. Danal suggests

10:23

his behaviour is caused by a

10:25

head injury helps us understand. We'd

10:28

love a tote bag as recommended

10:30

this podcast Times Radio by my

10:32

tennis mate Jill Dykes. Well Christine I'm definitely

10:34

going to put you on the pile and that

10:36

is funny isn't it? When you

10:38

get to France instead of saying

10:40

bonjour, I love to be

10:43

busy acting and you're absolutely there.

10:45

Who was the footballer who did

10:48

a whole press conference speaking

10:50

in a French accent because he had been signed to a French

10:52

club. I'm going to look that up for you because it was

10:54

very funny it's worth going back to sea. Shout

10:57

out for Sheffield. Before we give the shout

10:59

out for Sheffield, Fi what's happening in Sheffield

11:01

later this month? Adopting very quick upbeat sell

11:04

me something voice made us 31st as part

11:06

of the Crosswars Festival. We have Richard Coles

11:08

on stage with us. It's going to be

11:10

a game of two halves with a lovely

11:12

probably quite liquid interval in the middle and

11:15

you can just type in Crosswars Festival and

11:17

you will be able to find tickets and

11:20

do come along. And if this is getting

11:22

a bit repetitive then buy a ticket. I'll

11:24

stop repeating it every day. When was fall?

11:27

When was fall I went on third. Great.

11:29

So Melanie is written in aka editor spice

11:31

as she calls herself. She grew up in

11:34

Sheffield. She's going home for the

11:36

weekend to meet up with old-school girlfriends

11:38

who've known each other since 1977. Melanie says what

11:42

a great coincidence that you'll also be in town that

11:44

weekend Fi and Jane. For

11:47

anyone who doesn't know I also grew up in Sheffield so this

11:49

is I'm feeling it with

11:51

this email. I didn't know that. Yes

11:53

a little village outside Sheffield. Okay about

11:55

eight miles from Sheffield. Tiny little

11:57

pit village called Spinkill. Not a pit village

11:59

anymore. It's very Greenbelt and full of large cars

12:01

and... Have they got a statue of you yet? Not

12:04

yet. Named a bench after you? God,

12:06

no, not even a bench actually. Not even the one

12:08

I used to sit smoking on, naughtily. I'm

12:11

sure there'll be something in time to come. Excellent.

12:14

I like that positivity. Possibly some

12:16

gates that I can't get into. Crack

12:20

on. So Melanie says, I lived

12:22

the first five years of my life in a

12:24

smaller block. Oh, sorry, this is in reference to

12:26

standing at the Sky Veg, the amazing play that

12:29

our colleague, Jane Garvey has seen, but

12:31

I haven't, sadly. And Melanie

12:33

says, I lived the first five years of my life in a smaller block

12:36

of 1930s flats that was

12:38

in the shadow of Park Hill, which is the

12:40

iconic flats that the play is about. The

12:42

show reflects my life in so many ways, she

12:44

says. My parents were so like the first couple,

12:47

as in everything went pear shaped and my strong

12:49

mum got me into a better environment. And

12:51

I'm now one of the avocado eating Southern

12:53

dwelling weight-trays clan. You owe me

12:55

both, Melanie. But

12:57

for all their troubled history, without those flats,

13:00

I wouldn't be where I am today because

13:02

the compacts included an outstanding nursery school that

13:04

gave me a fantastic start in life. I even

13:06

wrote my first book there and

13:08

I'm now a book editor. And yes, back in

13:10

the 70s, the city's education department

13:13

provided free ice skating lessons for

13:15

junior school kids at Silverblades Rink. I

13:18

also learned to ice skate, but there was

13:20

a lot of blue sniffing as well as ice. Not by me,

13:22

I hasten to add, but it was a bit rough. It

13:25

was above Bramall Lane, the blades. She

13:28

says it was great, but I blame my

13:30

chunky size on that early exercise. I feel

13:32

like that might also be my reason. Not

13:36

genetics, just Silverblades ice skating at the age

13:38

of seven. Well, because you ice

13:40

skated so much, both of you, that you've

13:42

developed the truth of life. I mean, it's

13:44

a reach. It is, it's a reach. I've

13:47

never ice skated and I've also got the

13:49

chunk of thigh. Do you know what? I

13:51

think the size of your thighs and

13:54

your legs just so determined as a

13:56

woman. And This may well be the

13:58

same for men, so please get into it. Coveting

14:00

avid it is really determined through

14:02

the very early age what he

14:04

sees to go into and was

14:07

what what career you take. I

14:09

think we're reading miles since I'm

14:11

on body shape as he because

14:13

as a whole world's it's not

14:16

available t if you're not the

14:18

right kind of body shape as

14:20

a child and I've got a

14:22

little silly at about that making.

14:24

You. Sometimes a

14:27

very practical ways stay in more

14:29

and read more and be more

14:32

image of us and perhaps more

14:34

of an observer of lies. And

14:36

then there's a really kind of

14:39

does it much more caffrey teenage

14:41

life available isn't that says. Girls.

14:44

Have a certain body say by with think

14:46

the some features in particular so I don't

14:49

know whether that's just a fanciful theory that

14:51

Isis announcing my initial since I do know

14:53

what you're saying a d The only thing

14:55

I think I doesn't have runs the place

14:57

eyes and forty. My brother got my mom's

15:00

legs. it's a fantastic like a went as

15:02

legs and anti Muslim to bless and thrills.

15:04

They did have a lot of fun as

15:06

teenager. Said I was

15:08

in when I was on holiday last league.

15:11

As my friend who owns the As takes

15:13

a wonderful pets of. Season interior design ago,

15:15

gray eyes but I didn't I received any pictures

15:17

of me, my shorts, So.

15:19

We should I say pit to me when

15:22

I was lying and has things that's terrible.

15:24

at the age of forty six that it

15:26

is. Yeah and and nobody cares. I'm sure

15:28

the whole of live like darling at what

15:30

is your brother got into what line of

15:33

work is a pilot? As a pilot way

15:35

I would like to see a great legs.

15:37

Yeah yeah he doesn't get enough the login

15:39

lie you have you have suffered bombed my

15:41

say. Of the be out

15:44

of service just one person experience

15:46

I retire. At four am by seizing

15:48

you're right I think. list the what

15:50

you think about yourselves, no effect. You

15:52

know anything about politics as eating enough

15:55

places least go save a in a

15:57

I'd I'd didn't. i didn't

15:59

see that traveling thing when I was a

16:01

teenager for lots of reasons and I was at

16:03

the kind of school where quite a lot of

16:05

people were doing that gap yaw. And

16:09

a lot of things are to do with whether

16:11

or not you want to stay inside and whether

16:13

or not you want to remain fully clothed in

16:15

your young adult life. I think

16:17

maybe more than we realise. But

16:19

look, it's an odd theory and

16:23

the way that you're looking at me suggests that we may move

16:25

on. We may move on quite quickly dear

16:27

listener. What bit of your body do you

16:29

like the most? Oh,

16:32

I really don't mind

16:34

my hands at all. I've got my dad's

16:37

knees. I mean really have

16:39

got my dad's knees. He's not using

16:41

them. No, no

16:43

longer sadly. But they didn't work

16:45

very well actually in his own life. But

16:48

they're terrible knees and they're really shocking.

16:50

So I mean, I wouldn't even wear

16:52

shorts, let alone ask my friends not

16:54

to photograph me in shorts. So

16:57

yeah, it's not a huge thing for me actually.

16:59

I'm making it sound like it's a big thing.

17:01

I don't really care anymore. But my kids really,

17:03

really laugh at my knees. They've

17:06

got super legs. So they didn't

17:09

get that. But dad had lots of other things which

17:11

he handed down. He had a wicked sense of humour

17:13

and sometimes I like to grasp at that. And

17:16

the stapler. And the

17:19

stapler. Yes, the Rexell

17:21

Matador. Sam Davis

17:23

is colourblind. Now we were talking about

17:26

this because of the King

17:28

Charles portrait. I'm

17:30

fascinated by colour blindness. Are

17:32

you colourblind? No. So

17:35

I always wonder about

17:38

the way I dress. You were wondering.

17:43

No, darling. No. But

17:45

I wonder when the day is that you

17:47

realise you're colourblind. I mean,

17:49

in school, presumably when you're learning

17:51

your colours, you're just thinking, well,

17:54

that's green. That's my green. When

17:56

do you realise that it's not everybody else's

17:58

green? And this will be expensive. But look, Sam

18:01

is chittling as we talked about

18:03

the new portraits of King Charles. I

18:06

have a rare form of

18:08

colour blindness called accromatopsia, literally

18:10

means without colour. For

18:12

those of us with the condition, the lack of

18:14

colour in our lives is the least of our

18:16

vision issues, but it's always the thing that other

18:18

people are most interested in. We see in shades,

18:21

think black and white TV, the only real difference

18:23

is that we all see red as a really

18:25

dark shade akin to black or brown. This means

18:27

that I watched the Wizard of Oz several times

18:29

with no idea there was a moment when it

18:31

changed from black and white to colour, and I

18:33

had no idea until a year ago that Prince Harry

18:35

had red hair. And when 50 Shades of

18:37

Grey came out, I was very disappointed. I

18:40

mean, you're not the only one. Mostly

18:43

it's not a major problem, occasionally funny, my teenage

18:46

self halfway up a climbing wall and a teacher

18:48

suggesting I reach for the blue one, my five-year-old

18:50

promising me that the t-shirt I picked up for

18:52

her brother wasn't pink, I knew she was fipping.

18:57

Because the work around can be interesting, when I

18:59

went to uni my mum lovingly labelled all my

19:01

clothes, not with my name, but with their colour,

19:03

and gave me a little book with what colours

19:05

didn't go. Oh, that's lovely. I've watched a lot

19:07

of black, it seemed to go with everything. And

19:09

so did the painting, I really think the texture

19:11

doesn't help. Because I see red as

19:13

a really dark colour, the texture makes it

19:15

look like mud, so it bears a striking

19:17

resemblance to the bodies in the dead marshes

19:19

in Lord of the Rings. If

19:21

you look too long, those hands will

19:23

grab you and pull you in. Blimey.

19:27

And Sam says, please say hello to the other

19:29

members of the Blind Mums Drinking Club. Can

19:33

we come along? Oh, that sounds excellent. As

19:35

it was through a suggestion in our chat

19:38

that I began listening last year. Well, Sam,

19:40

welcome aboard, delighted to have you here. That's

19:42

a lovely, lovely email. And also just what

19:44

a lovely thing for your mum to do

19:47

to label all your clothes and make sure

19:49

that you're not going out in the wrong

19:51

thing. Let's hear it

19:53

for her. I love that. Rolf has written

19:55

in, Alofie and Jane, listening

19:58

to your thoughts on mismatched tattoos. took

20:00

me back to a dinner of four mums catching up

20:02

on each other's families recently. It was

20:04

hard to keep the incredulity off my

20:06

face as one mum tried to put

20:08

a positive spin on her daughter's first

20:11

tattoo. Are you ready? She

20:13

had a toucan on her chest just

20:15

above her right breast and

20:17

on the left, wait for it, Anne

20:20

Hathaway's cottage. Now

20:24

that, that's got range. That's

20:27

what I mean. I

20:29

just, that's bizarre. It

20:32

shows, it definitely shows an eclectic mind

20:35

doesn't it? It does, very nice. Very

20:38

Catholic tasting tattoos. Anne

20:41

Hathaway's cottage. Rather

20:44

if you've got any more information on the background of

20:46

that I'd be fascinated. Yes, very much

20:48

so. Or yes, just a drawing or something

20:50

like that would be fantastic too. Can

20:53

I just alert you to who's going to come up

20:55

as our guest today? It's going

20:57

to be Hilary Bratt who is a

20:59

fabulous traveller and part of a duo

21:02

that started Bratt Guides, the world's

21:04

largest independently owned guidebook company. I

21:06

changed an interview with her about

21:08

her memoir Taking the Risk. There

21:10

is an irony in Jane Garvey

21:12

doing an interview with a very,

21:14

very intrepid explorer, so it's worth

21:16

listening to. I

21:18

would just like to give a little shout out to Caroline. One

21:21

of our listeners in Australia, she's

21:23

in Perth, Western Australia, where she says

21:25

it's very sunny and strangely globally

21:27

warm. She's just been listening

21:29

to you and I talking about visualising everyone

21:31

dog walking while listening to the podcast. So

21:33

she wanted to send us a quick shot

21:35

of Koji, her adorable Kelpie. I love

21:38

Kelpies, they're Australian sheepdogs and one of

21:40

my best friends in New York had a lovely Kelpie Rosie.

21:42

And so this is a little picture of Koji who's brown

21:45

Kelpie and you can see the person in the background

21:47

look. The skyline of Perth, it's beautiful.

21:50

She says she can no longer hold him back

21:52

as her now healed half knee replacement is

21:55

only she's no longer holding him back as her

21:57

now healed half knee replacement is allowing pain free

21:59

movement. congratulations Caroline. She says keep up

22:01

the great work my walks would not be

22:03

the same without you. Well big love to you

22:05

and to Koji and thank you so much for

22:07

sending that picture. Koji looks wonderful

22:10

and very happy with a frisbee there. I

22:12

bet, yeah. How do those big dogs cope

22:14

in New York? I mean an Australian sheep

22:17

dog is a big dog that needs a

22:19

lot of exercise. Yeah, Rosie, my friend's dog,

22:21

she was on the sort of medium side

22:23

Kelpie, she's a rescue. So she copes really

22:26

well in New York actually because it's very

22:28

good for dog parks. There are a lot

22:30

of dog parks in New York and my friends used

22:32

to live in the on the west side of Manhattan

22:34

and so she had a lot of great places to play.

22:36

She used to walk around a lot they've just got

22:38

a new puppy actually, another Kelpie. They're back in Sydney

22:41

now so yeah the new

22:43

Kelpie puppy is extremely naughty.

22:45

She's very cute. Good, like

22:47

a naughty puppy. Right, just

22:50

one more on colour blindness from me.

22:52

Rachel is listening in Somerset and

22:55

tells us that her husband is red green

22:57

colour blind and really does miss out on

22:59

some things. For example, we have Virginia

23:02

Creeper all over the front of the house and

23:04

in the autumn it turns from bright green to

23:06

a glorious dark red. He can't see it at

23:08

all. He was just being naughty however when a

23:10

friend wearing a red and green dress asked

23:13

what he saw when he looked at it and

23:15

he said what's left?

23:18

So we only managed one day of

23:20

colour coordination didn't we? We both came

23:22

in and read yesterday and Jane is

23:24

wearing a very very very fetching dark

23:26

green today but I've gone a little

23:28

bit denim. Yeah you've gone kind of lowkey

23:31

exec or as I dressed again like

23:33

a Christmas tree. No you always look

23:36

very smart. Thank you very much. I

23:38

saw you striding across the cafeteria when

23:41

I was very new to Times

23:43

Radio and it was in

23:45

the summer, must have been late summer

23:47

and you were wearing quite a short

23:50

linen play suit with some

23:52

very bright pink suede mules

23:54

and I just thought what a

23:57

woman, just what an outfit to come

23:59

to work. I love

24:01

a play suit actually. I've got about four

24:03

in different shades of beige. I

24:06

just think they're very practical. You

24:09

could change the oil and fly a plane, go

24:12

to work at the time and then one. Put

24:14

everything in your pockets, it's great. I

24:18

like the fact that play suits and jump

24:20

suits have just become everyday work wear for

24:22

women. I like dressing like

24:25

a quick fit fitter. I

24:27

really like the zip. I love the

24:29

zip. Yeah,

24:32

utilitarian and shove everything in

24:34

your pockets. One thing on. That's why

24:36

I like to put one thing on.

24:38

Well, I'm wearing pants underneath. Oh,

24:43

we've already talked about making them. Let's

24:45

not go underwear today. I'm

24:48

just going to give you a little compliment here via

24:50

one of our listeners. Nafisa has written

24:52

in fee to say, I've been meaningfully

24:54

this for some time. I really enjoy

24:57

all your interviews. You have such a

24:59

calm collective way of interviewing. Your delivery

25:01

is not rushed. Your questions are informed

25:03

and calculated. You breathe during

25:05

your interviews and most interviews rushed.

25:07

Interviews are so anxious. Thank you.

25:10

Well, that is very, very kind. And

25:12

Nafisa, I think you're coming to see. I'm hoping

25:15

you're coming to see us in Sheffield actually. Thank

25:17

you for taking the time to do that.

25:19

Some of my interview questions are alarmingly rambling

25:22

and a bit like trying

25:24

to reverse out of a cul-de-sac. So I

25:27

take the compliment, but I would also say

25:29

still work to be done there quite a

25:31

lot of the time. Do you know any

25:33

blush on? I

25:36

really enjoyed talking to Jonathan

25:38

Dimbleby yesterday. What an amazing

25:40

guy. Really, really amazing guy.

25:43

And he doesn't look his age at all. And I think

25:46

we're allowed to say that, aren't we, about men? Because

25:49

women said about women. But

25:52

I really thought he was very thoughtful, and his

25:54

book is such a tome. And

25:56

I don't know about you, but I'm military

25:59

history. is not really

26:01

my go-to actually in terms

26:04

of reading, but I really enjoyed

26:06

his book because it's got this

26:08

incredible dipping into

26:10

personal accounts, which just

26:13

more and more we need to hear, don't

26:15

we, from war. And I

26:17

think some of the, I hope that

26:20

a lot of the recordings that

26:22

now come from the trenches in the

26:25

Ukraine war are

26:28

kept because there's something about the written

26:30

word, which is easy to

26:32

store, to be made available, years

26:35

down the line, somebody like Jonathan Dimbleby can find

26:37

it and put it in a book. And you

26:39

just sometimes think with the amount of stuff that

26:41

we record just on cameras, whether or not that

26:43

will ever get downloaded, ever get

26:46

formally stored. And somehow the more

26:48

visual imagery we have and the

26:50

easier it is to record personal

26:52

experience, the less we seem to

26:54

really savor it actually. And

26:56

respect it, have my pomade of

26:58

remote for today. Do

27:01

you have another one or do you want to

27:03

save one until the end after we've done the,

27:05

yeah, okay. Delay gratification,

27:08

good Lord. I don't know what that means. As

27:13

you're listening to me, Daisy Apple's

27:15

iPhone disassembly robot is dismantling an

27:17

iPhone into lots of recyclable

27:19

parts. That's how Apple

27:21

recovers more materials than conventional recycling

27:24

methods. Thanks Daisy, there's

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it comes to the iPhone, you can download it

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for new customers for limited time. Unlimited more than 40 gigabytes per

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28:36

In 1973, Hillary Bratt and her then

28:38

husband were chasing a rumor that near

28:40

the border of Ecuador and Peru there

28:43

was a hidden trail. After

28:45

days of getting lost, the couple trekked

28:47

the trails entirely before hopping aboard a

28:49

river barge in the Amazon to scribble

28:51

a detailed account of the route. These

28:54

handwritten notes became the first ever

28:56

published description of traveling the full

28:58

Inca Trail in English and the

29:00

start of Bratt Guides, the world's

29:02

largest independently owned guidebook company. Now

29:04

Hillary is now 82 but is

29:06

showing no signs of slowing down as you're

29:08

here in this interview and she came in

29:10

to speak to Jane about her memoir called

29:13

Taking the Risk. Jane put it to Hillary

29:15

that a lot of young people are traveling

29:17

South America these days so she asked Hillary

29:19

what the traditional experience was when she was

29:21

growing up. I suppose

29:23

it was Europe. I

29:26

mean mostly we stayed

29:28

in Britain because I was a

29:30

teenager in the 1950s. I

29:32

started traveling in 1960. My

29:36

first trip was to Greece and

29:38

that was utterly third world. I mean

29:40

it was like South America would be

29:43

these days actually even more primitive I

29:45

think which made it wonderful. How

29:47

did you get to Greece? We

29:50

took a train. It was rented

29:52

at a chap called Brian Hughes

29:54

who was an Oxford, I think

29:57

an Oxford undergraduate, used to book

29:59

entire railways. carriages. He was

30:01

a great entrepreneur and

30:03

there were six of us and we would sleep,

30:05

we'd sit up like ordinary people

30:07

during the day and then

30:09

at night we would sleep on the luggage,

30:11

on the floor, on the seats if we

30:13

were lucky or in the luggage rack. And

30:16

the luggage rack was quite uncomfortable but when

30:18

you're young you can do it. And

30:20

Greece as you say was not

30:22

as developed as it is now

30:25

as a tourist destination. Did

30:27

your family want you to go to Greece

30:30

on a train? How did they react

30:32

to this? Well remember that the

30:34

next year I was hitchhiking there

30:36

so they were pleased actually. I

30:39

was very lucky. I never had

30:41

parents who said take care and

30:44

I think that's quite important. I mean my

30:46

book is called Taking the Risk and I

30:48

was brought up that taking risk was

30:51

a normal thing and so I

30:53

don't remember them doing anything but

30:56

be encouraging. That's really interesting

30:58

because I was going

31:00

to ask you obviously about

31:03

women traveling and specifically hitchhiking

31:05

and traveling alone. Has it

31:08

ever been in your mind

31:10

that you needed to be a

31:13

little wary? Yes I

31:15

think it's important to say that I'm

31:18

not particularly, I was going to

31:20

say I'm not particularly courageous but actually

31:22

I would dispute that. Well

31:25

because I do feel afraid and

31:27

you know that the slogan is feel the fear and

31:30

do it anyway. So the excitement

31:32

of travel is stronger than the

31:34

fear of being alone and perhaps

31:36

in risky places. So it's never

31:39

stopped me but it certainly increased

31:41

my heartbeat a bit and had

31:43

me quite anxious at times. What

31:45

has been your your hairiest experience

31:47

would you say? Nothing

31:50

too awful you know I

31:52

haven't been raped. I

31:55

mean that is really important to say

31:58

of course you shouldn't have been. But

32:01

I suppose that actually was what I

32:03

was asking you. Yeah, I think,

32:05

you know, it was, we

32:07

were much more, um, phlegmatic

32:10

about men getting fresh.

32:13

And there are quotes from that. It's,

32:15

we expected it. It happened. It

32:18

happened a lot. I was traveling. The

32:20

hitchhiking was with a girlfriend. I have

32:22

hitchhiked alone, but it's much, obviously much

32:24

better with a girlfriend, even better with

32:26

a boyfriend or a husband. Why?

32:29

Why is it better? Because it's safer. Because

32:32

it's safer, because it's more fun,

32:34

because if something bad happens, you

32:36

share the, the, uh, I mean,

32:38

you know, there are stories where

32:40

going through Italy, these talents were dreadful in the sixties.

32:43

I'm sure they're lovely now, but,

32:45

but they were very fresh. And,

32:48

uh, you know, we were absolutely determined to get to

32:50

Rome, my friend and I. And, uh, a

32:53

female friend. Sorry? A female friend.

32:55

A female friend. And this

32:57

man was getting very excited. And, um,

32:59

we were trying to distract him by

33:01

reading all the billboards beside the road.

33:03

Oh, look, look, there's, I mean, stop.

33:05

What do you think you're doing and

33:08

have a look? And then the other

33:10

one was, oh, and there's one. And

33:12

we just made it there. Although, um,

33:15

I don't know if this is suitable for time

33:17

readers, but there was one point when, um, Val

33:19

said, oh my God, he's got it out. But

33:22

I'll elaborate no further. Well, you

33:24

can, I mean, I should say that this is a

33:26

podcast and we are allowed to be pretty Frank. Um,

33:29

and it's a conversation that adults will

33:32

listen to. Um, so

33:34

he exposed himself basically. He exposed

33:36

himself, but, um, we got to

33:39

Rome. He wasn't actually dangerous. He

33:41

was just silly. Well,

33:44

that's your inter I think that's, can I

33:46

say a generous interpretation? And I think it's

33:48

an illustration of your approach to

33:50

life, which is pretty positive.

33:53

And your spirits are quite hard to

33:55

dim. I get the impression.

33:58

Can we just go? back

34:00

to your very first trip to

34:02

a country that

34:05

I must confess always sounds impossibly

34:07

exotic to me, Colombia. Now

34:09

do you remember your first trip there? Who did

34:11

you go with? What year was it? I

34:13

remember it very well. My first

34:16

trip there was on my own and

34:18

by golly I was nervous. I hadn't

34:20

meant to go on my own but

34:23

my flatmate in San Francisco decided at

34:25

the last minute not to come and

34:30

I got to Colombia and it

34:33

was actually an enormously friendly

34:35

country. I mean I was on

34:37

my own. I spoke almost no

34:39

Spanish. I had a

34:41

real burning desire at that point

34:44

to get to Peru and see the Incas

34:46

but I was going overland and I think

34:48

one of my strongest memories is taking a

34:50

train up from the coast. This

34:53

young man who I realized

34:55

had had polio and

34:58

had calipers on his legs and was on crutches.

35:00

He was about 17 I

35:02

think 16 and he

35:04

was so friendly and he came along

35:07

and he spoke some English and so

35:09

we talked a bit and the cut-along

35:11

story short I ended up staying with

35:13

his family and they were absolutely

35:15

lovely. They were quite poor. I

35:18

remember we had potatoes three times a

35:21

day sometimes with a bit of meat. There

35:24

was I think four children and

35:26

they all piled into the same bedroom

35:28

so I could have

35:30

a room to myself and

35:32

my entertainment value was very

35:34

very high. Therefore

35:37

you know I have learnt that

35:39

actually we shouldn't feel guilty about accepting

35:41

hospitality as long as we can

35:43

give something in return and I learnt,

35:47

I hadn't realized this what I'd learnt,

35:49

I'd learnt quite a rude expression for

35:51

go away which stood me

35:53

in great stead and they loved it when I said

35:55

that. What's so fascinating about

35:57

the book is that you do

36:00

on the whole, I have to say, only

36:02

encounter, apart from the horrible men and there

36:04

are some, incredible hospitality

36:07

and friendliness with people curious

36:10

about you, but not in an

36:12

unpleasant way. And in fact,

36:14

all too eager to invite you into

36:17

their homes. There's something magical about it,

36:19

actually. Well, it's magical, travelling as a

36:21

woman alone, quite honestly. And people

36:23

are perhaps unnecessarily nervous

36:26

about it. It is anxious

36:29

making, but certainly in South America

36:31

and certainly in the early 70s,

36:33

and probably now, you're

36:35

seen as vulnerable and

36:38

not vulnerable and therefore worthy

36:40

of attack, but vulnerable and

36:42

worthy of protection. And I

36:44

think we as women travellers can play

36:47

up to that quite honestly. And, you

36:49

know, I can be strong and determined if

36:51

I need to be, but I can be

36:53

not helpless, but oh

36:56

gosh, you're so kind. You know, this is, I

36:58

really need your help. Okay. So that's

37:01

just a tactic. Just, you can

37:03

just embrace it slightly and benefit

37:05

from the plus side of being

37:07

a lone woman. There are some

37:09

benefits, clearly. Yes. Yeah. Okay. It's

37:11

not even a tactic. It

37:13

was the way I felt, but it's

37:15

useful. Have you ever been

37:17

somewhere that frankly, really disappointed

37:20

you? Probably

37:24

Egypt, that first trip. And I

37:27

must, what year was that? That

37:29

was 1976. And it was at

37:31

the end of an 11 month, 11 month

37:34

trip. And I've

37:36

been back since and absolutely loved

37:38

it. So, you know, anyone who

37:40

gets upset at hearing this, that

37:43

was then we were very tired

37:45

and the Egyptians were so assertive,

37:48

aggressive, you know, they were coming

37:50

through the train windows and they

37:52

were just annoying. And

37:54

we were tired. And I

37:56

mean, this sounds unbelievable, but

37:58

my husband George. Dr. Carringer's

38:00

stick, who beat them

38:02

off because they were so persistent.

38:05

And I know that sounds terrible,

38:07

but, you know, we were just

38:10

pretty fed up by that point. Yeah,

38:12

it happened. And we need to

38:14

hear your experience. Something else I

38:16

wanted to ask you about was the obvious

38:18

question about whether travel has,

38:21

in fact, ruined destinations.

38:24

The Galapagos Islands are

38:26

a destination that you've been to quite a few

38:28

times, I think. Just

38:31

for a start, just where are they? So

38:33

everybody's absolutely certain whereabouts in the

38:35

world we're talking about. OK, so the

38:37

Galapagos are off the coast of Ecuador,

38:39

quite a way off. There

38:41

are volcanic islands that emerge

38:44

from the sea, so are never

38:46

connected to the mainland. So it

38:48

evolved the most extraordinary wildlife. And

38:51

I was there in 1973, and it was absolute paradise.

38:57

But it was paradise

39:00

looking to be spoiled because there were

39:02

no restrictions on tourists.

39:05

And we were well behaved. We knew

39:07

how to respect the wildlife. Wherever

39:10

we went, we were careful not

39:12

to upset the wildlife. But

39:15

only the following year they brought

39:17

in restrictions. And thank goodness they

39:19

did. You know, it's tourism

39:22

doesn't spoil a place if

39:25

the authorities deal

39:27

with the potential threat before

39:29

it happens. And if

39:32

a place is more unusual, I mean, the

39:35

obvious thing is to try and get off

39:37

the beaten track. You know, I don't

39:40

know why everyone is so sheeplike.

39:42

They all want to go to the

39:44

famous places, tick off the famous places.

39:47

And the world is still an enormous

39:49

place. There's so many places you can

39:51

go where you're benefiting

39:53

the people by helping the

39:56

local economy, benefiting wildlife by

39:58

supporting conservation. So, you

40:01

know, I'm obviously biased because I publish

40:03

guidebooks, but I don't think tourism

40:05

damages the country unless we

40:08

let it. You

40:10

are also very clear that you should

40:12

never ever judge a country or its

40:14

people by its government. And

40:17

you've written guidebooks to some

40:20

pretty, frankly, unpleasant places

40:22

if I were to judge it by

40:25

its government. It's

40:27

a very good point. And I described

40:29

in the book how we were in

40:31

Chile just after the overthrow of Allende,

40:33

planning just to travel quickly through Chile

40:36

and get the hell out of there

40:38

because we were quite nervous. I mean,

40:40

it was sandbags everywhere. You know,

40:42

we saw someone shot in the street. It

40:44

was not. Well, we should just explain. He was

40:46

replaced by? By Pinochet. But

40:48

this is a big but

40:51

people were coming up to us

40:53

on the street and saying, we are so pleased

40:55

that Allende has gone. You foreigners

40:57

have no idea what it was like for us

40:59

during his latter years. And he was a hero

41:01

to many, wasn't he? He

41:03

was a hero. They kept cutting out the

41:06

democratically elected government. But

41:08

someone said to me, well, you

41:10

know, I voted for Allende because

41:13

I thought we needed change. But

41:15

we didn't expect the rigors of

41:17

life under what was basically a

41:19

communist regime. And so

41:21

this and because we hitchhiking and meeting

41:23

a lot of people, talking to a lot

41:25

of people, it completely

41:27

changed my mind about being

41:30

open to what the local people

41:32

feel, not what the newspapers say.

41:35

Sure. Although at this point, I do have to

41:37

add that I don't think General Pinochet was a

41:39

pleasant man. He did some truly hideous

41:42

things. People were in prison without trial. Torture

41:44

was going on. I mean, all sorts of horrible

41:46

things happened. I'm just saying that so that we

41:48

don't get lots of emails from people saying

41:50

you have no idea. We just

41:52

I mean, but it's a good point that

41:55

those of us who do read the Times, for

41:57

example, might have one view of things. But

42:00

it doesn't always mean that it's what's felt on

42:02

the ground by the people there. And you're absolutely

42:05

right about Pinochet. And I too, I'm very

42:07

aware of the criticism I could get.

42:09

And I do say he's not the first

42:11

tyrant to be greeted as a saviour.

42:13

And he won't be the last. And I

42:16

think that's it. And the first few

42:18

months, people thought it was wonderful. And

42:20

very quickly they realised what was going

42:23

on. And of course, I don't defend

42:25

what was going on later. No, I'm

42:27

sure you obviously, you don't. But we

42:29

just need to say that, I think. The

42:31

guides that your company has produced to countries

42:34

like North Korea. I

42:36

mean, seriously, how did you do that? How

42:38

is it possible to write a travel guide

42:40

to North Korea? Well,

42:44

I've been to North Korea as a tourist.

42:46

I didn't write the guide. When

42:48

did you go? I went in 2016. And

42:52

it was absolutely fascinating. Even

42:55

the boredom was fascinating. The

42:58

author had to write under a

43:00

pseudonym. He obviously couldn't say

43:02

that he was writing a guidebook.

43:06

But it's a very

43:08

useful thing to do. You know, the history, it's

43:10

as balanced as it could be, I think,

43:12

the book. You know, it reports

43:15

both sides of the argument, so

43:17

to speak. It's important

43:19

that people do go to places like

43:21

that. You know, I wouldn't have missed it

43:23

for the world. What did you see there,

43:25

Hilary? Factories. So

43:28

you went on an official tour. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

43:30

Yeah. I mean, it's as people probably

43:33

know, you can never be without your

43:35

minder. You can't leave the hotel in

43:37

the evenings. You

43:39

are obviously always hearing the

43:41

party line. But

43:44

our minders were delightful. They

43:46

were funny. They were smiley.

43:49

The army was smiley. I mean, who would

43:51

have thought that? And

43:54

it was they treated us very well. And we

43:56

did get a bit of a chance to talk

43:58

to local people. They had a bit of... festival

44:00

of all things. And they could

44:02

carry these things of

44:04

beer like at the Munich beer

44:06

festival beautifully. And we did get

44:08

a chance to talk to some

44:10

local people who speak English. Obviously,

44:12

you don't talk about politics. And

44:15

we took a lot of bus trips

44:17

all over the country. And so we

44:19

saw a lot. And I can't say

44:21

I can't say everything's

44:24

wonderful there. But I wouldn't want to

44:26

agree that absolutely 100% costly.

44:29

It was

44:31

fascinating. And for people who are

44:33

planning, for example, a trip as intrepid

44:35

as some of yours, perhaps a solo

44:38

backpacking holiday somewhere in

44:41

South America or Asia possibly, what

44:44

are your travel essentials? The bits

44:46

of kit you should never leave

44:48

home without? Dental

44:50

floss and a strong needle. Dental

44:52

floss, not for your teeth, but

44:54

it's excellent for repairing things. And

44:57

so I've repaired boots for dental floss with

45:00

my tent with dental floss, everything

45:03

dental floss. I don't understand how you repair

45:05

a tent with dental floss. Tell

45:07

me. If it's

45:10

got a tear in it, you can

45:12

stitch it up. You do need a

45:14

selection of strong needles. Okay, right. Yeah.

45:16

Surely things like pastas. Yes.

45:19

Oh, yes. Yes. And diarrhea

45:21

pills and all that sort

45:23

of stuff. Yeah, that kind of goes without saying

45:25

a really good novel, you know, and swap them

45:28

with other travelers on the way

45:30

because when the bus breaks down, which they

45:32

probably do less now, you need something good

45:34

to read for the few hours that you'll

45:37

start there. Now, astonishingly, I believe you are

45:39

82. I do genuinely

45:42

find that extremely hard to believe.

45:44

Oh, I find it quite easy. Do

45:48

you just don't want to acknowledge it? No,

45:50

no, I love acknowledging it, but I'm quite

45:52

creaky now. Well, you don't, you absolutely

45:54

do not look it. And I

45:57

wonder whether, I mean, have you got any big trips planned?

46:00

And where are you going in the next

46:02

couple of months? Well, actually, I hope I'm

46:04

going to an extra hospital to have my hip

46:06

replaced, and then I'll be able

46:08

to do anything. But before this, and that

46:10

just does sound a bit stupid for someone

46:13

with an arthritic hip, I'm going

46:15

to Greece to run in the Nomean Games,

46:18

because the Nomean Games happen every

46:20

four years to coincide

46:22

with the Olympics, and

46:24

it's open to all, everyone,

46:26

whether they can run or walk or

46:28

whatever, and it's wonderful. You

46:31

have to dress on the traditional Greek

46:33

toga. It's run in the

46:35

ancient capital, the Nomean Stadium,

46:39

and I'm not going to miss it. I shall

46:41

dope myself up and undo it. Okay,

46:43

I'm not your Dr. Hilary, and

46:45

I suspect if I was, you wouldn't pay any attention

46:47

to me, but good luck with that. I'm

46:50

glad that you acknowledged that perhaps it's not the

46:52

most sensible thing you've ever done. Just before we

46:54

go, and there's so much you could talk about,

46:56

I just want you to describe the mating dance

46:59

of the blue-footed booby, because this is

47:02

something you have witnessed, isn't it? Whereabouts

47:04

in the world do we find blue-footed booby?

47:06

I mean, that was the

47:09

Galapagos before restrictions, and we were

47:11

able to go to a place

47:13

called Daphne Major, which is an

47:16

extinct volcano with a broad sandy

47:18

base to the crater,

47:21

and it was absolutely full. Blue-footed

47:24

boobies doing their mating dance, and

47:27

I really need to do it visually, but I

47:29

won't go for it. You're on film as well,

47:31

so you can use it. Well, anyway, it's this,

47:34

and they've got these beautiful blue feet, I

47:36

don't know, we've done all four. Yeah,

47:38

so they lift up and they look in turn. All

47:41

different shades of blue, and then they point their bill

47:43

at the sky, and they go, ooh,

47:45

a little whistle. I won't whistle, because it probably

47:47

won't come out, and then they tuck their head

47:50

into their chest, and then they maybe pick up

47:52

a twig, which is a little bit of nest

47:54

starting, then they give it to their mate, and

47:57

they say, oh, that's absolutely lovely, thank you so much,

47:59

and put it. on the ground because they

48:01

just nest on the ground. So it

48:03

is one of the wonderful wildlife sites that

48:07

you can ever see. Unfortunately you

48:09

can still see it on the

48:11

Galapagos because tourists are properly controlled

48:14

there and yet all these experiences are

48:17

open to them. Hilary

48:19

Bratt in conversation with Lady Jane

48:21

Garvey. Her book is called Taking the

48:23

Risk My Adventures in Travel and Publishing

48:26

and it's out now. Final

48:28

email? Yeah it's a punchy, pissy one

48:30

to finish with. Thank you

48:33

Chris for this extremely

48:35

well put poignant and

48:38

optimistic in a way email

48:40

about waxing. She says dear

48:43

Jennifer, re-body her in intimate places. No need to

48:45

bother waxing as at the age of 70 most

48:47

of it has disappeared. My grandchildren,

48:50

she says, know me as swearing

48:52

Annie. No explanation needed. Brilliant,

48:55

so much to live for. It's

48:58

Jane and P at Time Stop Radio

49:00

if you'd like to contribute. If

49:03

an election's been called then I really hope

49:05

it's a suitable day in your diary. It

49:07

doesn't clash with the village fate with

49:09

those pesky kids doing all kinds of

49:11

things let loose after their exams or

49:13

the family holiday that you booked ages

49:15

ago. Saved up for it and I

49:17

really look forward to it. You

49:36

did it. Elite listener status for you

49:38

for getting through another half hour or

49:40

so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known

49:42

as the hugely successful podcast off air

49:44

with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We

49:46

miss the modesty class. Our Times Radio

49:49

producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive

49:51

producer. It's a man, it's Henry Tribe.

49:53

Yeah he's an executive. Now if you

49:55

want even more and let's face it

49:57

who wouldn't then stick Times Radio with

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us. on at three o'clock, Monday

50:01

until Thursday, every week, and you can

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50:06

the day, as well as a genuinely interesting mix

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of brilliant and entertaining guests on all

50:10

sorts of subjects. Thank you for bearing

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