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Unlimited slows. Oh,

1:26

God, I'd completely forgotten. Ian Dale messaged

1:28

me about poor old Vera. I

1:31

know, it's over. I can't believe it. It's

1:33

over, but I think, wouldn't you agree it's been

1:35

over for a while? No. Oh,

1:38

she's a sprightly 78. Oh,

1:40

no, I don't. No, no, I'm not casting

1:43

any aspersions on Brenda Blethon, but I think

1:45

that the writing of it has just not

1:47

been fabulous for a while. Because

1:49

that's partly because they're not using Ann Cleave's

1:51

stories, are they? No, and because there's just

1:53

no backstory, because there was that really lovely

1:55

back story developing of her, you

1:57

know, that she might have a. No,

2:02

no, no. A strange

2:06

stepsister, you

2:08

know, sister by another. Oh, this has to

2:10

do with the aristocratic link that she had.

2:12

Yeah. Another mother might have had a

2:14

child whose life she might have got

2:16

involved in. I thought that was going to develop

2:18

into something really meaningful and it never did. Oh,

2:21

I think you've understood some of the plot rather

2:23

more than I have. What do you remember at

2:25

the end of one episode, ages ago, you know,

2:28

back in kind of season three out of 20,

2:31

at the end, and

2:33

there had been this kind of developing

2:35

plot, she went to hang a bag

2:38

of kind of cuddly toys and

2:40

kids gifts on

2:42

somebody's front door, I think

2:44

in Gismond. Oh,

2:46

right. And the

2:49

suggestion was it was a

2:51

relative. A relative. Okay. Well,

2:54

look, I tell you what, if you can't remember,

2:56

then you're blessed because you can just go back

2:58

and watch them all over again. If you have

3:00

just joined us or if you just gradually find

3:03

your eyes closing, we are talking about Vera. Vera,

3:05

the seminal work provided

3:07

by ITV drama starring Brenda Blethen,

3:09

as the aforementioned lady

3:11

detective in a distinctive Mac, lived in

3:14

the countryside in a beautiful, slightly ramshackle

3:16

house right up on the northeast coast,

3:18

did her own thing, plowed her own

3:21

furrow and was

3:23

ageless, essentially, Vera. She

3:25

solved everything. She had a

3:27

cunning act of knowing who'd done what to

3:29

whom, and she was certainly always ahead of

3:31

me, which in fact, does take a lot.

3:34

Anyway, broadcaster Ian Dale messaged me first thing

3:36

this morning to say that he did expect

3:38

that I would do my Vera impersonation on

3:41

our fair today. So here we go. Kenny.

3:44

Well, that is it. Yeah.

3:47

And I think that takes everybody. I think

3:49

it was more of an order to Kenny.

3:53

Well, that was it. No, no, but you used to

3:56

tell him to do something, didn't you? Or

3:58

is it just Kenny? You pursue that, Laina, regardless. inquiry,

4:00

can you? I

4:03

think it transports people instantly to the

4:05

wilds of glorious Northumberland. Yeah. Yeah. No,

4:07

I'm going to miss Brenda and I'm

4:09

going to miss the show. Perhaps

4:11

you're right. Perhaps it was time. I

4:14

was funny enough, I was in the bath

4:16

last night listening to – we shouldn't give

4:18

the men any more publicity – but that

4:20

broadcaster I've just mentioned. And you know, a

4:22

couple of months ago there was all this

4:24

stuff about how often men think about the

4:26

Roman Empire. It was about once every three

4:28

seconds. So peculiar. And your thoughts on that

4:30

are still welcome. I suddenly,

4:33

suddenly sat bolt upright in the

4:36

bath and thought, did the Romans invade Ireland? And

4:39

when you look on – Are you turning

4:41

into a man? I

4:43

might be. You can't make jokes like that anymore. I got

4:48

out of the bath and obviously I looked up on Bing

4:50

and – Am

4:52

I a man? No. Did the Romans

4:54

– and if you put in one

4:56

of those search engines, did the Romans

4:58

invade? I'm sorry, I just stopped you

5:01

there. You're so right on, sister. Did

5:03

you really use Bing? I

5:08

looked up on one of those search engines and

5:11

if you type in, did the Romans

5:13

invade? The first place that comes up

5:15

is Ireland. Okay, but that's probably

5:17

to do with your algorithm, isn't it? Because if

5:19

you were doing that search

5:21

in Germany, it would probably be

5:24

Stuttgart. It's not

5:26

all those searches to do with

5:28

what you searched before. That's why

5:30

you shouldn't trust any of these search engines.

5:32

No, because I could pretty much guarantee – I might run

5:34

and get my phone just for fun because I'd pretty much guarantee

5:36

that if I – Look at that. Talk

5:40

about me laughing the plot.

5:42

She's sitting there with it.

5:44

He's totally motivated. Right,

5:46

so what was your search? Did

5:48

the Romans invade? Okay,

5:51

hang on. I'm

5:53

on our – The answer is – Nobody seemed

5:55

terribly sure. They sort

5:58

of might be some evidence that they did. They certainly knew

6:00

it existed, but they didn't

6:02

conquer it. So I get Scotland. Oh,

6:05

yeah. Did the Romans conquer Scotland?

6:08

Not in they'd conquer. Okay. So

6:11

that may say something. Well,

6:14

isn't it true that actually the

6:16

Romans created Scotland and created the

6:19

by building Hadrian by building the war.

6:21

Yeah, one big happy family. Very much

6:23

so everyone got on. It's

6:25

well known. There were no

6:27

fights as the burial sites brew. Now

6:30

we've got a very strange. We need

6:32

to say this is an ongoing situation here. We

6:38

can all smell it and if

6:42

it's lunch, I don't want to

6:44

have lunch here. It's chicken.

6:46

You think it's roasted chicken with eggs and blankets. Yeah.

6:48

Well, I know that's what it is. But whether that's

6:51

what the smell is, I don't know. Okay.

6:53

It's rather unpleasant. What happens

6:55

in the piping in this building that

6:57

we suddenly get a waft of lunch?

6:59

I mean, I should say it is

7:01

lunchtime, which is making this whole thing

7:03

very challenging. Anyway, it is the feast

7:06

day of the patron saint of old

7:08

England, St. George. So to

7:10

everyone celebrating, I always find it very

7:12

funny every time St. George's Day rolls

7:14

around. But there are endless discussions on

7:16

radio and in the media about why

7:18

we do nothing to celebrate St. George's

7:20

Day. And we spend such a lot

7:23

of time talking about why we don't celebrate it

7:25

that we actually do market. It's part of the

7:27

tradition now of St. George's Day is that we

7:29

agonize about why we don't really mark St. George's

7:31

Day. Okay. So we've got our own traditional way

7:33

of just naming the day

7:35

and getting through it. That's a very good point. Do

7:38

you celebrate at home? No. I

7:40

mean, I was listening to a couple of discussions

7:42

about whether or not we needed a minister for

7:44

flags. Do

7:47

we? Just

7:49

doing some inhalation here. Deep

7:52

breathing. I think that would help. I think this

7:54

is what Britain's liked for

7:56

quite some time. And I

7:58

just I really... I

8:01

won't be doing anything today actually what should I be

8:03

doing? I think this

8:05

is where we struggle because St. George is obviously

8:07

he killed a dragon which is a wonderful and

8:09

very brave thing to have done and

8:12

he wasn't English I think he was either Greek or

8:14

Turkish and

8:17

we're very lucky to have him but I don't

8:19

think he's a bit of a part because I think

8:21

he's actually the patron saint of quite a few other

8:23

countries as well. Is he? Yeah I

8:25

know so you can't trust him as far as you

8:27

could throw him. Some of these men get around don't

8:30

we know it and that's just

8:32

in this building. Right let's

8:34

talk about Julia who sent us a lovely

8:36

selection of gifts. Julia sent

8:38

us some very very fine mugs that were a

8:41

little bit cheeky. She says she's

8:43

so giddy that we're going to Sheffield. It

8:46

feels she says like I'm going to meet long lost

8:48

friends. Then she slightly ruins it

8:50

by saying I think this makes me a sad ass but never

8:52

mind. Well Julia I

8:54

mean have faith in your emotions and yes

8:56

we're delighted that you feel that way aren't

8:59

we? Yeah and come and say hello

9:01

properly. And I love my

9:03

mug. I've taken home gobshite because I thought that

9:05

was appropriate. We have divided the

9:07

others amongst the team and they

9:10

are a bit rude so those members

9:13

of the team who have little people in the

9:15

household they're not allowed to take a mug home

9:17

but I don't care anymore about my kids so

9:19

I'm happy to embrace gobshite. They can take a

9:21

mug home up until the point of reading emerges

9:23

and then they're going to have to hide it

9:26

somewhere in the back of a dark cupboard. The

9:28

fact that I've now got a mug with gobshite

9:30

on it won't exert any questions

9:32

from the other residents of my home. So

9:35

do we know whether or not this

9:37

is actually Julia's business? She

9:39

says she has a tiny weenie company in

9:41

Sheffield and designs these for a living. Given

9:44

the number of fitting recipients many of whom you

9:46

shine a light on in your podcast it should

9:48

be a corporate giant. Actually it

9:51

isn't but I have fun along the way. Excellent.

9:54

Does she name the company? No it's

9:56

not headed paper or whatever and

9:58

you don't have to have headed paper too. at all. But

10:01

we'd like... Oh, I think it's good if you do. Would

10:03

it be Thermo Raised? Yes, I

10:06

would very much hope so. I can't go to

10:08

a wedding unless it's a Thermo Raised invitation. We'll

10:10

get onto weddings in a minute. But Julia, thank

10:12

you. Yes, let's find out the name because we

10:14

can name check because we're not in the old

10:17

place. Honestly, these are mugs that

10:19

a lot of people would... Yeah, they're very, they are

10:21

very, very good quality. They're very good quality mugs with

10:23

rude words upon them. Yes. But honestly, I think people

10:25

would like to know, Julia, and Julia's coming to the

10:27

live show on May the 31st. With

10:30

her best mate, Sonia, they're going to

10:32

be in row either 8 or 11.

10:34

Okay. Quite close. Give us a double wave. Don't

10:39

throw us a mug. If anybody else would like to come,

10:41

it's the Crosswise Podcast Festival. But if you buy a ticket

10:43

to us, it doesn't mean that you have to go and

10:45

see lots of other people at all. You

10:48

can just come and see us if you like. But

10:50

there are loads of other podcast people. It's a fantastic

10:52

lineup. It's really good names, actually. So

10:55

you can spend the whole weekend there just

10:57

seeing joyful people. I was going to

10:59

say, like Jon Ronson, but he's on at the same

11:01

time as us. So you can't forget him completely. Yeah.

11:04

He's nothing to us. And

11:07

what's the matter, Eve?

11:09

He'll be on the show in tune. And we love him very

11:11

much indeed. We love him very much. We're almost

11:13

fans, but we don't want people to go and

11:15

see him, not us, really. He's probably saying the

11:18

same thing on one of his very intellectual podcasts.

11:20

He's probably pausing to say, don't go and see

11:22

Jane and Fi. Stick with this.

11:24

He'll definitely be saying that. Yeah, no, we

11:27

love Jon, but he is scheduled against us.

11:30

And it's May the 31st. And if

11:32

you just type in Crosswise to any

11:34

of your search engines, is that what

11:36

we're now saying? Yes, Bing and

11:39

the other lesser known ones.

11:41

And I think we should also

11:43

ask Jeeves very much. So then

11:45

you'll be able to book your tickets there. So

11:48

it'd be lovely to see you. We'll have a very good, fun evening.

11:50

We've had loads and loads of stuff about

11:53

weddings, haven't we? And of course,

11:55

there's no right or wrong answer to

11:57

this. But if you're a person

11:59

who's. slightly struggling with whether or not

12:02

to invite your whole family to a wedding,

12:04

or you've been rather hurt by not being

12:06

invited to your children's weddings,

12:08

then I hope that some of these

12:10

experiences might ring true with you and

12:13

just settle something in yourself. This

12:15

one comes from, I think I'm going to

12:17

allow you to remain anonymous just because then

12:20

I can read the whole email, which does

12:22

detail something you'll really weed off about with

12:24

your husband's family. So here

12:26

we go, picture the scene. It

12:28

was March 2020, weeks away from our

12:31

London wedding with everything planned and paid for.

12:33

Unbeknownst to friends and family at this point,

12:35

I was also approaching three months pregnant with

12:37

what I thought would be our first baby.

12:39

But within a week at the end of

12:42

March, we were told our baby had no

12:44

heartbeat and in fact was a molar pregnancy.

12:46

And we were also forced to call off

12:48

the wedding because of COVID. I

12:51

felt robbed. Life went from a feeling

12:53

of having everything to having nothing at

12:55

all. And my mental health followed suit.

12:58

After months of lockdown of moving in

13:00

my parents and husband to be, I think that's with

13:02

my parents and husband to be, and

13:04

of weekly hospital visits through COVID

13:07

times to test for HCG levels.

13:10

After a molar pregnancy, my husband and

13:12

I decided to reclaim some of our

13:14

year in the autumn. So we snuck

13:16

off and got married in October in

13:18

the lockdown, not quite lockdown in between

13:20

the era. We had two guests, one

13:22

was our prepaid photographer and another was

13:24

an unexpected self-employed friend who we knew

13:26

lived nearby and worked from home. We

13:29

didn't tell anyone because how could we

13:31

tell some family but not all family?

13:33

And if we told all then, some

13:35

would insist on coming whilst others would

13:37

be restricted with shielding and other factors

13:39

in place. So we kept it a

13:41

secret. But when we told our families,

13:43

my parents were just happy for us

13:45

and my family didn't make it all

13:48

about them. But my husband's family, namely

13:50

his sister, 14 years older, really

13:52

did. This makes me annoyed to

13:55

this day as I really can't see how

13:57

anyone can feel so self-centered to make someone

13:59

else's life. wedding all about

14:01

them. So I

14:03

really feel for you what a horrible,

14:05

horrible series of whammies

14:09

led to your decision to have a

14:11

very secret wedding and good on you.

14:14

And also because I think in those kind of situations if

14:16

you have a big wedding isn't it always going to remind

14:18

you of the wedding that

14:20

you should have had at a different time.

14:22

So I completely and utterly get that. Just

14:24

to say actually that that

14:27

awful experience that our correspondent

14:29

has been through, that's one of those stories

14:31

of Covid that we're in danger of just

14:34

forgetting. Some people got through it okay and

14:36

I think you and I would say we

14:38

had a pretty lucky experience

14:40

of Covid and a relatively good

14:42

and peaceful lockdown. But

14:44

stuff like that is going on everywhere

14:47

and I feel so sorry for those

14:49

people who just had so many challenges

14:51

of very many different sorts

14:53

and they're still getting

14:56

over it. Perhaps they will never

14:58

completely get over it. So I really

15:01

hope things have calmed down for you.

15:04

And also I just hope at some

15:06

stage that your sister-in-law maybe

15:10

comes to realize that laying something

15:12

on you about guilt or disappointment

15:14

is perhaps just a tad unfair.

15:16

We'd all like every wedding in

15:18

the family to be a glorious,

15:21

wonderful shebang of

15:23

self-indulgence. But there are so

15:25

many different things at play especially with blended

15:27

families now. I think we just

15:29

have to be so forgiving of the fact that that

15:32

whole thing is

15:34

a very very rare treat for some

15:37

people. It's not most people's experience of life anymore

15:39

is it? It really is. I just had one

15:41

tiny thing at the bottom because our correspondent does

15:43

go on to say I haven't got anything to

15:46

add about Spital Saliva. Only that

15:48

Lottie's story of being Spital is one up by a

15:50

friend of mine who had a cup of pee chucked

15:53

over her when they were

15:55

at a music festival. It's a thing. Again

15:57

an absolutely disgusting thing that only men

16:00

doing crowds when they can't be bothered to go and queue up

16:02

for the loose. Isn't that terrible?

16:04

And she also, as a nine-year-old

16:06

girl, used to have a boxy

16:08

black leather, most likely so, briefcase

16:11

with a six-digit lock mechanism. And

16:15

she says, I'm not sure, but astonishingly I

16:17

didn't get bullied for this and I remember

16:19

how satisfying I found the pen holder and

16:21

assorted letter compartments for different sized papers. Oh,

16:24

how wonderfully satisfying. Yeah, but it's actually a very,

16:26

very satisfying email. There are a couple of other

16:28

conversations in there which I might say for another

16:30

time. It takes about 50 billion a new 30

16:32

or 30 billion a new 50. Well, we

16:34

find out today that the age at which you become elderly is now

16:36

74. So I've got –

16:39

I'm not waiting that long. Years. I'm not waiting

16:41

that long. What? I don't want

16:43

to wait that long to be elderly. Right. You'll be sitting there with

16:46

your little foot muff around you

16:48

watching Countdown. I'll think of you.

16:50

I want to start doing that one when I'm 60. Do

16:53

you? I do. God, have I got to start that in

16:55

June? Yes. Somebody sent

16:58

in some little kind

17:00

of PDF about Freedom Pass. About

17:02

Freedom Pass. Yes. Do

17:04

you want to – so you get yours soon. Yes. Well,

17:07

you have to apply for it. Yes. And

17:09

do any certain people get it? I

17:11

think they do look favorably

17:14

upon requests from lady broadcasters

17:17

who still need to get to their

17:19

special turnstile place of employment.

17:22

I know some people who don't get

17:24

the Freedom Pass out

17:26

of vanity. That's so stupid. Or

17:28

they feel, oh, I can pay. I

17:31

suppose you could. That argument is a reasonable

17:33

one. That's all right. And indeed, I could

17:35

pay. But you won't. Now,

17:42

we should say we have a very serious guest today. It

17:44

couldn't really be any more serious. And

17:47

that is one of the glories of our

17:49

job is that we just – we

17:51

get to talk about the utterly

17:53

trivial, but not insignificant. I think

17:55

for one minute, this wedding thing

17:57

is entirely trivial. But briefcases. Oh,

18:00

in briefcases, yeah, my

18:02

freedom passed, yes. Anyway, today's guest

18:04

is Salman Rushdie coming up relatively

18:07

soon. But there have

18:09

been so many thoughtful emails about

18:11

weddings and we are gonna

18:13

do an email special very soon because we've had

18:15

so many brilliant bits of correspondence from you over

18:17

the last couple of weeks. This is

18:19

from someone who says, I eloped 16 years

18:21

ago and it still feels like one of

18:24

the best decisions we've ever made. I was

18:26

38 when I got married and felt like

18:28

I'd lived through so many colleagues weddings and

18:30

every excruciating detail like the ribbon

18:32

on the bridesmaids dresses. Well, it's

18:34

not olive, but it's not lime

18:36

colors, et cetera. I didn't

18:38

want to be a princess for a day

18:40

and then spend tens of thousands of dollars

18:43

for just a couple of hours. We didn't

18:45

have a load of money, but probably could

18:47

have afforded something if that was our financial

18:49

priority. His parents live in Perth, that's five

18:51

hours away. And my parents are in Dubai,

18:53

that's a 14 hour flight away. We called

18:55

them that evening and told them and emailed

18:58

our friends the next day. My parents never

19:00

expressed any disappointment if they did

19:02

feel it. I think his

19:04

parents were probably sad not to be

19:06

there and certainly some of his friends

19:08

expressed and still express that sentiment. We

19:11

now have a daughter of 14 and

19:13

constantly tell her she can do whatever she

19:15

likes for her wedding. And I have no

19:17

concerns at all if she chooses to elope.

19:20

To be brutally honest, if she said she

19:22

wanted a big do, I think I'd be

19:24

secretly a bit disappointed. Right,

19:28

that's the thing with kids though, they can

19:30

just deliberately go against what they've been brought

19:32

up to believe. Julia is

19:34

in Brisbane who says, I'm still listening between

19:36

four and five in the morning when your

19:39

episode first drops in Australia. Oh, we know

19:41

Julia, yeah. She's

19:44

one of our ultimate Australian correspondence. Well,

19:46

yeah, thank you for getting in touch

19:48

again. And I just want to mention

19:50

this rather brutal but

19:53

pithy final paragraph from Amy's

19:55

email. I've

19:58

really appreciated hearing other people's experience. experiences, she

20:00

says, she herself is getting married in

20:02

September. Especially those of parents,

20:04

as it's helped me to understand where mine

20:06

are coming from. But when it comes down

20:08

to it, this is the kicker, would

20:11

people rather their kids do something just

20:13

to please them, rather than

20:15

what they actually want to do? Well,

20:19

I think you just have to be very honest when you

20:21

answer that question, because I think I know a lot of

20:23

people who do

20:26

view parenthood or some parts

20:28

of parenthood through the, this

20:31

is how I'd like it to happen. This

20:33

is what I want it to be. Yes,

20:37

I think, gosh, it's a difficult

20:39

one. So this one is

20:41

just a complete, I mean, it's about exactly

20:43

the same thing. Someone who wishes

20:46

to remain anonymous, who says, I've never enjoyed

20:48

being the centre of attention or been one

20:50

for much fuss, it's just not me. My

20:52

partner and I plan to marry in a

20:54

very intimate ceremony with just us, the children

20:56

and a couple of witnesses. I told my

20:58

mum this is the way we'd like to

21:00

get married. And so we'd most likely tell

21:02

close family after it has happened. And she

21:04

told me that if that's what makes me

21:06

happy, then she couldn't be happier for me.

21:08

And as a child, there's no greater feeling

21:10

than hearing a parent say that to you

21:12

and knowing, really knowing that they

21:14

mean it. This has always

21:16

been an inspiration to me and the way I

21:19

hope to raise my children. I try and catch

21:21

myself every time I think about the careers they

21:23

might have, the things they might do, the people

21:25

they might love. That's not for me

21:27

to project onto them or carry an expectations over.

21:29

Ultimately, I really do want to be able to

21:31

say a mean if you're happy, I'm happy. And

21:35

yeah, I think that I

21:37

mean, that is what we should all be doing. Yeah. But

21:39

you know, I had, I had a couple of

21:41

people and I won't say what nationality they

21:43

were and discuss, and they were young people.

21:45

They were in a restaurant next door to

21:47

us over the weekend. They had such loud,

21:49

I mean, really, really astonishingly loud, belligerent voices.

21:52

They managed to hold a conversation for

21:54

an hour and a half that just went nowhere.

21:56

It was just, it was, it was about things

21:58

that were just in in a testimony

22:01

small and connected to themselves and their

22:03

own feelings. It didn't broaden out at

22:05

any juncture and we had to endure

22:07

it because their voices were so loud

22:09

and I did find myself thinking I

22:11

really hope my children don't marry people

22:13

like that. So there you go. You

22:17

should have recorded it and taken it home and then

22:19

played it to your kiddos. It

22:21

was just mind boggling. Were they a

22:23

couple or just a couple of friends?

22:25

They were a couple of friends and

22:27

you know, maybe you and I back

22:29

in our 20s would have had that

22:32

kind of conversation. I like to think

22:34

we would have broadened it out with

22:36

some mention of camp. Oh

22:40

no, I mean of course we would have had

22:42

exactly that type of conversation. That's what young people

22:44

are but it was the intonation and there was

22:47

a lot of so totally like. So

22:50

totally like? I think I'm beginning

22:52

to pinpoint the nationality. Like? Like?

22:55

Probably not from Northumberland. All

23:00

right. It's a little bit like my

23:02

fear of impersonation though not as good.

23:06

And now onto the subject of spitting. That

23:12

was a very slick way of introducing a new

23:14

topic. I'm a Brit

23:17

Aussie and I married a Canadian later in life.

23:19

That's the opening line of something isn't it? It

23:21

is. It really is. Dear reader. I was not

23:23

brought up with the culture of ice hockey. The

23:25

first time I went to a game. What?

23:28

Were you brought up with the culture of ice hockey? Well

23:31

then why are you laughing? The first time

23:34

I went to a game I couldn't

23:36

get past the extreme amount of spitting

23:38

that goes on on the benches by

23:40

the players waiting to go on. It's

23:43

disgusting. Instead of watching a game I'm

23:45

fixated on this extremely unhygienic and prolific

23:47

activity. Just put on any NHL

23:49

game and you'll see it loud and clear.

23:52

I can't imagine what the floor looks like

23:54

where they're sitting. Then they jump over the

23:56

barrier and skate it all over

23:58

the ice. Ooh! I suppose

24:01

it freezes. I asked my husband

24:03

at what age the kids are allowed to start

24:05

hawking and gobbing on the floor of their local

24:07

ice rink when they play hockey, and

24:09

he said he didn't know. He also said

24:12

he didn't know at what age they're allowed to

24:14

start fighting other players, as that's definitely an accepted

24:16

part of the game as well. There

24:18

are even specific rules for fighting, such

24:20

as no gloves and no sticks, keep

24:22

your helmet on, etc. But they are

24:24

allowed to fight. Before Covid they

24:26

all shared water bottles as well, don't get me there's

24:29

about 30 people on each team. Luckily

24:31

I believe that has changed since

24:33

Covid. Name and address withheld as

24:36

I need a Canadian visa this

24:38

coming summer. Okay, we

24:40

always think of Canada as a rather benign

24:42

place, don't we? I had no idea. Full

24:44

of well-mannered people. It had an issue with

24:47

spitting. But our football is

24:49

spit a lot too, don't they? Do you

24:51

think so, do you think? But you said the

24:53

ice hockey people are spitting more. Well clearly it's

24:55

more of a problem I'm going to say. Well

24:57

obviously I think we can almost, there's an

24:59

explanation. I mean I've never done

25:01

it because I've never played professional sport.

25:04

Not. No.

25:06

Although I did win the Under

25:08

14's ping pong tournament at my

25:10

school. I'm just saying that did

25:13

happen. It's not a figment of

25:15

my imagination. I used to go

25:17

in early to practice. Anyway, um, I

25:20

think my hormones probably kicked in a bit later than a

25:22

lot of other girls. Maybe. But you

25:24

didn't spit doing that. You didn't

25:28

spit. That's not

25:30

where this story is. If you're

25:32

running around a pitch I can

25:34

understand. But she's pointing out our

25:36

anonymous Canadian correspondent that they're

25:39

doing it just as they wait to go

25:41

on. They're sitting down. I mean what can

25:43

possibly be the excuse there? I don't know.

25:46

I don't know. I'm sorry Canada. You better.

25:49

Now shall we just get through Asparagus Day

25:51

and Morris dancing and this will be the

25:53

last mention of Morris dancing just because we

25:55

feel the need to move on ourselves don't

25:58

we? But this is just

26:00

an absolute talker of an email.

26:03

It comes from Jules who says, didn't

26:06

know if you knew it was asparagus day, very

26:08

random, neither did I even know there was such

26:10

a thing. Can I just say, do you like

26:12

asparagus? I love asparagus. Yeah, I mean, I think

26:14

there's quite a lot of fuss and the

26:17

Vale of Evesham is a very famous asparagus

26:19

growing area. So when I did my local

26:21

radio, that was we did a lot of

26:23

asparagus at this time of year features.

26:27

And I'm really, I'm sorry

26:29

to say I don't rate it at all. How

26:32

are you cooking it? Really badly.

26:34

Oiling it or steaming it? Steaming it. I

26:36

like to steam. I like to steam. See,

26:38

I think steaming it is, I think that

26:40

actually takes the taste away. I think a

26:42

little bit of asparagus pride

26:44

and a bit of butter is a wonderful

26:47

thing. Really wonderful

26:49

thing. So yes, I really, really,

26:51

really like it. And also it's just that funny

26:53

thing, isn't it? Because then you do play a

26:55

slight game with yourself, don't you? Of

26:57

how many we've made. I can't believe you've

26:59

stayed. How many we've stayed to the asparagus

27:01

emergency. Of how many we've... Yeah, put as

27:03

a fragrance. Because sometimes it goes through you

27:05

incredibly quickly. You literally get up from the

27:07

same table that you've been having the asparagus

27:09

as your meal, go for a wee. And

27:11

there it is. It's

27:14

a diuretic. Is that what diuretic means? I don't

27:16

know. No, I don't think it's

27:18

a diuretic, but the smell carries through, doesn't it? That's

27:20

what's weird about it. God's sake. No,

27:22

it's fascinating. Isn't it funny how something is

27:25

sweet corn, asparagus, tomato seeds.

27:27

Yeah. And beetroot stains your wee

27:29

as well. It does. I'm sorry.

27:32

It's a revolting little thing, beetroot.

27:34

Stop it. Oh, no, I love

27:36

beetroot too. Right. This will be the last email because

27:38

Eve's getting a little bit fed up with the mention

27:41

of vegetables. She's in her 20th. Right,

27:43

here we go. So Jules lives in glorious

27:46

Devon, relatively near veg growing farm. Sorry to

27:48

say I had radio on this morning.

27:50

God, I know. But I need to wake up with a

27:52

few tunes to start my day and catch up on news,

27:54

etc. Promises my only time is fortunate enough to have a

27:57

driving job and can listen to you both religiously from 3

27:59

p.m. That's the spirit jewels.

28:01

The topic today mentioned the above and

28:03

in doing so, interviewed a seven foot

28:06

man called Goose, who dresses

28:08

as an asparagus for eight

28:10

weeks. Lovely man, but

28:12

still can't quite get that image out

28:14

of my head this morning, as he

28:17

also discussed the celebration involved lots of

28:19

Morris dancing. I'm not a

28:21

fan, only because it was a thing at

28:23

school along with the Maypole, and I vividly

28:25

remember the silver jubilee. The head teacher of

28:27

the Maypole will always be an odd person

28:29

in my book, only because I have very

28:31

naturist loving parents. Which is where the

28:33

email from Very Good becomes quite brilliant.

28:36

It is amazing, which I grew up

28:38

with, and to be honest, helped me

28:40

in future years to be body confident.

28:42

The biggest issue for me though, is

28:44

this particular teacher also loved this way

28:47

of life. And even though we would

28:49

travel a vast distance to fulfill my

28:51

parents choice of beach days out, we

28:54

not only happened to see this particular teacher,

28:56

which I'm honest, would have been enough to

28:58

scar me for life, but he quite happily

29:00

stood with hands on hips, talking with

29:02

my mother, who was incredibly embarrassed

29:04

for the intrusion. Poor

29:07

for effect. I did always feel

29:09

the need at that age to cover

29:11

up thankfully, and disappeared into the sea,

29:13

pretending I was too warm. School

29:16

days were never quite the same, and Morris dancing

29:18

for me now has a tinge, and

29:20

unfortunate image I just can't shake.

29:24

Imagine that, so your parents are driving

29:26

miles and miles to avoid the embarrassment

29:29

of bumping into people that you know,

29:31

and along comes hand on hip teacher

29:34

in the nude. Just

29:36

standing around having a chat, that is

29:38

from, James from, that correspondent is

29:40

53, describes

29:43

herself as an all round sea swimmer. I

29:46

was surprised you ever came back onto land after that.

29:50

So we assume that incident took place, what in

29:52

the early 80s or late 70s? Yeah,

29:55

I think if you remember the silver jubilee, very

29:57

vividly, then you're kind of our age, aren't you?

30:00

Yes, she's very good. She's your age. Increasingly,

30:03

I see myself as from a different, whole

30:05

different generation. But

30:09

I don't think that would that happen

30:12

now? I don't know. I think it

30:14

would be really, really, really problematic. Deeply

30:16

problematic. And I mean, the thing is,

30:18

it was problematic then. It's

30:20

just there wasn't anybody around to go, no, that's

30:22

really wrong. Yeah. You know,

30:24

I just, oh, I don't know. So

30:26

this is another can of

30:28

worms don't sitter, but I slightly don't

30:31

get the nature thing.

30:34

No, I think I think this

30:36

general agreement that the size of

30:38

anyone with no clothes on, first of all, you

30:41

can't stand there with your hands on your hips

30:43

and no clothes on, because it doesn't matter whether

30:45

you're female, male, whatever you are,

30:48

you're going to look ridiculous. Because

30:50

you can't, because also it suggests

30:52

either authority or I'm being

30:54

really casual. I'm just standing here with everything

30:56

on display. Got my hands on my hips.

30:58

Yeah. Nothing to see here,

31:00

except there is. I don't get it. No, I

31:03

don't get nature as a writer. Let's

31:05

put that out there. Please help us understand

31:07

nature ism. What is the

31:09

appeal? And are we being

31:11

a little bit carry on with our with our

31:13

approach to it? And

31:16

that's my age group. I'm talking about here, not

31:18

young fee here who doesn't remember the carry on

31:20

films at all. She's

31:22

no idea who said James is. I'll

31:25

tell her one day. I'll

31:46

tell her one day. better

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ad free. That's amazon.com/news ad

32:48

free to catch up on the

32:50

latest episodes without the ads. Now

32:56

the author Salman Rushdie won the Booker

32:58

Prize for his 1981 novel Midnight's

33:02

Children. That book went on to win

33:04

the best of the bookers and later

33:06

something called the Booker of Bookers, but

33:08

it isn't actually his most famous work.

33:10

That is the Satanic Verses, which

33:13

caused such offense in parts of the

33:15

Islamic world. It was seen

33:17

by some as an irreverent depiction of

33:19

the Prophet Muhammad and some countries banned

33:21

it. And a few months after

33:24

it was published the then supreme leader of

33:26

Iran Ayatollah Khomeini issued

33:28

a fatwa ordering Rushdie's

33:30

execution. And between 1989 and 1998 Salman

33:32

Rushdie was forced to move home

33:36

30 times. Finally

33:39

in the August of 2022, Salman was attacked by

33:41

a young man at

33:44

a literary event in upstate New

33:47

York. Miraculously, and it really is

33:49

miraculous, he survived to write knife

33:51

meditations after an attempted murder. I

33:54

asked him when he decided he needed to

33:56

write this. Well, initially I thought I didn't want

33:58

to and then I really thought I did. So I

34:01

changed my mind about that. For

34:03

about six months, I really thought I

34:05

had no interest in writing about it. And then some

34:09

switch flipped in my head and it became very important

34:11

to do it. Not

34:15

exactly as a form of

34:17

therapy because, you know, I

34:19

think writing is writing and therapy is therapy.

34:22

But it was a way for me to feel

34:25

that I was regaining some kind of control of

34:27

the narrative. And that was

34:29

important to me. You

34:31

had had a price on your head

34:34

for decades. I think it's fair to

34:36

say that at some

34:38

level you knew this was coming,

34:40

didn't you? Well I knew

34:42

it for a while and then I forgot it. Because,

34:45

you know, I've, of

34:47

course in the early years after the

34:50

attack on the satanic verses began, I

34:54

did think about it. I thought about it quite often, the

34:56

possibility of an attack. But, you

34:59

know, I've been living here in New York City for close

35:01

to 25 years. And

35:04

for the first 23 of those 25 years, life had

35:08

gone back to normal, you know. And I

35:10

was doing everything that writers do. I was

35:12

doing book tours and readings and lectures

35:15

and, you know, all the stuff

35:17

that writers get invited to do. And

35:19

there had never been a hint of

35:21

any problem. So I guess I

35:23

had thought it was behind me. And then, unfortunately,

35:26

it wasn't. Why

35:28

did you make the decision not to

35:30

name your attacker at any point in

35:32

the book? Well, I

35:34

just didn't want his name in my book, you know. I

35:37

thought he's had his 27 seconds of

35:40

fame and he should go back to being anonymous

35:42

and forgotten now. I

35:45

was particularly touched by your

35:47

admission, if you can call it that,

35:49

that you felt you should have fought

35:51

back. You seem to have

35:53

given yourself a really hard time

35:56

about that. Can you tell me more about it?

35:59

Yeah, I just felt the same. I felt feeble, you

36:01

know. I thought somebody comes at

36:03

you, why don't you retaliate? And I

36:06

mean, everybody close to me has said, don't be

36:08

stupid, you know, you were 75 years

36:10

old and unarmed,

36:13

and he was 24 with a knife. And what

36:15

do you think you could have done? Which

36:18

is probably nothing. And

36:20

also, it all happened very, very fast,

36:22

you know, and before

36:25

I knew what was going on, I had been

36:28

attacked with stab for the first time. And after

36:30

that, there was no possibility of fighting back. So

36:33

yeah, maybe I was a little too hard on myself. I think

36:35

I'm feeling a little

36:37

more generous towards myself now. Other

36:40

people did attempt to come to your

36:42

aid, didn't they? Yeah,

36:45

not just attempts. They certainly saved

36:47

my life. First of

36:49

all, Henry Reese, who was the other person on stage

36:51

with me, was also not a

36:53

young man. He's a man in his 70s. But

36:56

he rushed across the stage and

36:58

tackled this assailant, this

37:00

armed assailant, you know, and then,

37:03

amazingly, members of the audience

37:05

from the front of the audience rushed up and helped

37:07

him and pinned

37:10

down the attacker and restrained him,

37:12

you know, subdued him. And

37:14

if that were not the case, you know, I wouldn't

37:16

be here to have this conversation. We

37:19

should say that it occurred, the

37:21

attack on you at a very rarefied

37:23

event, that there was nothing about that

37:25

day that should have

37:28

made you particularly vulnerable or made

37:30

you worried about what might happen. No,

37:33

the Chautauqua Institution is a beautiful place.

37:35

It's in Western New York, upstate New

37:38

York State. And it's, it's

37:40

kind of bucolic and, you know,

37:42

leafy and peaceful, and

37:45

has a long tradition of talks

37:48

that, where people

37:50

talk openly in an atmosphere of,

37:53

you know, conviviality and

37:55

so on. And I had actually spoken there before, about

37:57

10 or 12 years earlier. And

38:00

it had been a very nice

38:02

evening, afternoon, and I

38:04

assumed it would be the same. But

38:07

this time the attacker had

38:10

somehow seen some notice of my

38:12

being part of the summer programme

38:14

of events and used it

38:16

to plan his attack. He

38:19

hadn't read the Satanic verses, had he? Oh,

38:22

he hadn't read anything I'd written. I

38:24

think by his own admission he read at

38:26

the most two pages of something I wrote,

38:29

which I don't even know what two pages.

38:31

And you know, the internet is full of garbage, I

38:33

don't even know if there were two pages by me.

38:37

And he'd seen a YouTube video or two in

38:39

which I'd been interviewed. And

38:41

that appeared to be enough to persuade him

38:44

to commit murder, which is a

38:46

big leap for somebody who's never committed a crime

38:48

before. He didn't kill you, obviously.

38:50

We don't need to emphasise that. But

38:52

you were very, very severely injured. And

38:54

I confess that until I read the

38:57

book, I hadn't realised quite

38:59

how badly hurt you've been. Could

39:01

you just outline the most serious

39:03

injuries that you had? Well,

39:06

there were 50 indifferent wounds. And

39:09

the most serious of them, obviously, was the

39:12

injury to my eye, which blinded

39:14

my right eye. But

39:17

apart from that, there was a

39:19

big slash wound under my neck. There

39:22

was a stab wound in my neck on

39:24

the right side. There were

39:26

three stab wounds down

39:29

the centre of my torso. There

39:32

was a quite bad injury to my tongue. I

39:36

mean, that's just the headlines, you

39:39

know, but it was a very

39:41

close thing. My liver was injured. Fortunately,

39:46

my heart was not injured, but it was,

39:48

as the doctors afterwards said, bruised, whatever that

39:51

means. And

39:54

I was also lucky that the wounds

39:56

in my neck failed to rupture the

39:58

artery. otherwise, you

40:01

know, otherwise I wouldn't be here. Well,

40:04

were you expected to live? No,

40:07

I mean, initially, when

40:11

they, you know, I was flown by

40:13

helicopter to the nearest trauma hospital and

40:16

the doctors said to me later that

40:18

when I was brought in off the

40:20

helicopter, they thought it was

40:22

probably too late. You know, they, they, they doubted

40:24

that they could save my life.

40:28

But and the surgery then took, I don't exactly

40:30

know, eight, eight and a half hours, something like

40:32

that. And fortunately, they proved

40:34

themselves wrong. And they did save my life.

40:38

Had your wife got to you by then? She

40:42

got to me before I emerged from

40:44

the anesthetic. I mean, she, I'm not

40:46

sure exactly what point she arrived, but

40:48

she was rushing up from New

40:50

York City by

40:53

plane. And

40:56

yeah, she got in the attack was at

41:00

new in local times about a quarter

41:02

to 11am. And

41:05

and the then by the time the surgery was finished

41:08

and I was out of the anesthetic, it was evening

41:11

and she was there by then. And

41:14

obviously the attack made made headlines around

41:16

the world. And you had

41:18

some very supportive statements from President

41:21

Biden, President Macron, and the then

41:23

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson did

41:25

say something. I mean, I

41:27

think you feel that it was slightly grudging.

41:30

Well, you know, back in the day before

41:33

he was prime minister, at the

41:35

point that I was awarded my knighthood, he

41:38

wrote something to the effect that I didn't deserve

41:41

the knighthood because I wasn't a good enough writer.

41:44

So I don't know that it came easily to

41:46

him to be sympathetic,

41:48

but he did. So there we

41:51

are. Yes. And

41:53

your recovery was was long and painful. And

41:55

I was really struck in the book that

41:57

you you don't shy away from the indignity.

42:00

You were really very frail and

42:02

you had an exceptionally tough time.

42:06

Yeah, and I was poked and prodded in all

42:08

sorts of ways. Well

42:10

it took months, you know, because

42:13

there were, as you say, there were a

42:15

lot of injuries and the recovery of some

42:17

of them was recovered faster than others. You

42:19

know, the liver has an amazing capacity to

42:21

regenerate, so that's regenerated. But

42:25

the hardest thing, actually, apart from things healing,

42:27

was just to regain my physical strength because

42:29

I was very weak for a very long

42:32

time. Did

42:34

you or were you allowed to

42:36

look at your injuries and how

42:38

aware were you of how badly

42:40

hurt you'd been? Well

42:43

initially I didn't because my

42:45

wife, Eliza, decided wisely

42:47

that I should not be allowed to look in a

42:49

mirror because she thought

42:51

that if I saw the scale

42:53

of the injuries, it would

42:55

actually depress me and reduce my ability to

42:58

fight back. And

43:00

so I didn't actually see what

43:03

I looked like for several weeks by when I looked

43:05

a bit better. And later

43:07

on, because she had been taking photographs

43:09

and making videos as we'd agreed she

43:11

should do, when

43:13

she finally said to me, are you ready to see

43:16

the early images? And I said yes. I

43:18

was actually quite shocked by how terrible I'd

43:21

looked and I realised that she had been

43:23

absolutely right to keep me away

43:25

from that information. It would have been horrifying.

43:29

What has she said to you about

43:31

what it was like for her? I'm

43:33

thinking particularly of that dash to your

43:35

side. Yeah, it was

43:37

obviously horrible for her too because

43:40

somebody called her, she doesn't now remember whether

43:42

it was somebody from the hospital or somebody

43:45

from the Chautauqua institution, somebody called

43:47

her and said you better get up here quickly because he's not going

43:49

to make it. And

43:51

so all the time that she was travelling, she had

43:53

that sentence in her ears

43:55

that she was going to see her husband who

43:58

might well be dead by the time she arrived. And

44:01

I mean, it took an amazing

44:03

act of strength on her

44:05

part to then suppress all that

44:07

emotion of

44:10

her own in order to be there

44:12

for me. Would you

44:14

call yourself, in all

44:16

honesty, a good patient? I

44:19

think I was pretty good to begin with. And

44:21

then by the time I'd been

44:24

in hospital for six weeks, I

44:26

think I got a bit impatient. And

44:30

I wanted to leave. I wanted

44:32

to leave a little bit before they wanted to let me out. And

44:35

in the end, I realized that they were right and I

44:38

was wrong. And so I became a good patient again. How

44:41

often now do you think back

44:43

to what happened? Do you dream

44:45

about it, for example? I

44:49

did for a while. But

44:52

it's receded now. I wouldn't

44:54

say I never think about it, but it's no

44:56

longer right at the front of my mind. I

44:59

think writing the book, in a way,

45:01

dealt with it for me. It felt like, OK,

45:04

I've thought it through and this

45:06

is what I want to say about it. And

45:08

I hope people find it touching and

45:10

affecting. And I also

45:12

thought, you know, many people have calamity or tragedy

45:14

in their lives. And maybe they

45:17

can connect my experience to their own. And

45:20

if so, that would be a good thing.

45:22

It might be helpful to one or two people. There's

45:25

a part of the book in which you

45:28

have an imagined conversation with your attacker. Why

45:30

did you want to include that? Because

45:33

I felt he was, other than my

45:35

wife, Eliza, and myself, he was the third

45:37

person in the story. And

45:39

I wanted to try and get a kind of fix

45:41

on him, you know, because what we

45:44

know about him is very slight and

45:47

doesn't seem to add up to enough motivation

45:49

to commit a crime of this nature. So

45:52

I wanted to try and imagine myself into his head

45:54

and see if, you know, using my using

45:57

what talent I have as an imaginer. storyteller

46:00

to try and find a convincing

46:02

character there who who at

46:05

least in my opinion was convincing enough that

46:07

I would believe that he had been would

46:09

be willing to do something like this you

46:12

do say that to be attacked with

46:14

by a knife is it is

46:16

a peculiarly intimate form of

46:19

brutal attack isn't it is not

46:21

and it sounds absurd but it's not like being

46:23

shot no guns can shoot guns can

46:25

injure you from far away a knife

46:28

attack is right up close and in your face as

46:32

it was and he was right up against me and

46:34

then when I fell down he was actually on top

46:36

of me they can't get much more intimate than that

46:39

and you know I mean even though 27 seconds

46:42

at first sounds like not very long time

46:45

if you think about it 27 seconds when somebody

46:47

has a knife that is attacking you is a

46:50

really long time and

46:52

so we had that that

46:54

kind of long moments of

46:57

a sort of lethal intimacy and

47:00

that was another reason I wanted to get to

47:02

grips with him you know I wanted to try

47:05

and well I wanted

47:07

to think about him and then I then I thought okay

47:09

once I've done that I don't have to think

47:11

about him again he hasn't

47:13

stood trial yet has he no I

47:16

mean the date I don't have a firm

47:18

date yet but I believe it's coming up

47:20

in in the autumn at some point September

47:22

October I'm not sure exactly when and

47:24

I appreciate you perhaps don't want to

47:27

anticipate that but will that be exceptionally

47:29

difficult no I don't

47:31

think so I mean I think you know I in

47:34

a way I can't really draw a line under

47:36

this event until the trial has happened until

47:39

he's let's say until he's been sentenced and

47:44

and I believe I mean I've had a

47:46

conversation or two with the district attorney the

47:48

local district attorney who does want

47:50

me to testify and and

47:52

so if that is the case and if I'm needed

47:54

I will go and do it yeah bearing

47:58

in mind not just this dreadful attack

48:00

and the suffering you've been through and Eliza and

48:02

the rest of your close family as well. And

48:05

the years before when it must have been,

48:07

if not at the forefront of your mind,

48:09

then definitely on your mind. To

48:12

what degree do you regret writing the

48:14

Satanic verses? Not in the

48:16

slightest. Not in the slightest. I

48:18

mean, I think it's

48:21

one of the better books I've

48:23

written. And, you know, there are a

48:25

lot of people around the world. I mean,

48:27

it's published in more than 40 languages. There's

48:29

a lot of people around the world who really like it. I

48:31

mean, who even love it. And I

48:33

don't see why their opinion is less important

48:35

than the opinion of people who attacked it

48:38

with mostly without reading it. No,

48:40

I'm very I'm I'm proud of all my

48:42

books and including that one. But

48:45

you were attacked in such a vicious way

48:47

with a knife. I mean, we could say

48:49

that the words are your weapons. But

48:52

there must have been time when times

48:54

when you just felt they were not

48:56

enough. Or don't you feel that way? Well,

48:59

I felt that way to begin with. Yes. I mean,

49:01

I think, you know, the attack was in August

49:04

of twenty, twenty two. And really,

49:06

it was about February of six months

49:09

later, before I could

49:11

even think about words. They

49:13

just felt inadequate. And

49:16

then I thought, I guess I guess I just

49:18

pulled myself together a little bit and thought, this

49:20

is this is the tool you have. So use

49:23

it to respond. And that's what I did.

49:27

I know I have read that you

49:29

say if Donald Trump is reelected, you

49:31

would consider coming back to

49:33

the UK to live. Is that the case? Oh,

49:36

I think I spoke to Rashley, really. I

49:39

mean, I'm I'm I

49:41

love coming to to London to

49:43

see family and friends. And by the way, they really

49:45

like coming to New York to be here. So

49:48

I'm not sure that I need

49:50

to flee. Also, New York is not

49:52

Trump country. You know, even when he was

49:55

president before, New York

49:57

still felt like New York. And I mean, he got almost

49:59

no votes here. And I

50:01

expect that to happen again. So there

50:04

are parts of America that are Trump country

50:06

in which less likeable to visit,

50:08

but New York City is just fine, I think.

50:11

And what would you say to those

50:13

people, Jewish people, for example, in London

50:15

right now who say they

50:17

don't feel entirely safe going

50:20

into the center of London at the weekend

50:22

because of the pro-Palestinian marches?

50:24

And I'm not criticizing the pro-Palestinian marches.

50:26

I'm just saying that it's

50:28

rather a tough time to be, in

50:31

quotes, visibly Jewish in London at the

50:33

moment. What are your thoughts on that?

50:35

Well, the world is insane

50:37

right now. People are very, very

50:39

angry and have seemed to

50:41

have no way of talking to each other. And

50:44

that's sad. I mean, truthfully, I'm a little bit

50:46

out of the loop of what's happening in London

50:48

because I haven't been there for a while. But

50:52

I can well understand the nervousness

50:56

that people feel. But you

50:58

stick to your belief that whoever

51:00

you are, whatever you are, you

51:02

should be entirely free to write

51:05

and say what you think. Yeah,

51:08

I mean, of course, because the

51:10

alternative to that is that nothing can be said. If something

51:14

that offends somebody can

51:17

be prescribed because it

51:19

does that, well, everything

51:21

offends somebody. And so if that's the rule,

51:23

then nothing can be said at all. So

51:26

it's better, I think, to, you know, as the

51:28

saying goes, let a thousand voices speak. And

51:32

I mean, the defense of

51:34

free speech has always included the defense of

51:36

people you don't agree with because otherwise it's

51:38

not the defense of free speech. And

51:42

therefore, quite often, the

51:44

defense of free speech is a little ugly

51:46

because you have to defend people who are

51:48

saying things that you really despise. But

51:52

in order to create the arena in

51:55

which free expression exists, you

51:57

have to defend that as well as the stuff that you like.

52:00

And you have done that. You have spoken out

52:03

in support of people whose views

52:05

you find difficult. Yeah,

52:08

I mean, of course. All

52:12

the time, you know, people write books

52:14

or make videos that I find them

52:16

reprehensible. But to say that

52:19

they should be banned is a step

52:21

too far in my view. I

52:24

mean, there was once, you know, soon after

52:26

the attack on the synthetic

52:28

versus began, there was a Pakistani film in

52:30

which I was the villain and the heroes

52:32

were the people trying to murder me. And

52:36

I defend that film was

52:38

refused initially refused a certificate

52:40

in the UK. And

52:42

I defended it against the ban. And as

52:44

a result of my intervention, film was given

52:46

a certificate, unfortunately did really

52:48

badly. You had

52:51

the last laugh there. But that must really disturb

52:53

your critics when you're prepared to do that, to

52:55

stand up and do that. Where

52:57

do they go from there? Well,

52:59

they should think about their own positions. You know,

53:03

it's it's, it's very easy to

53:05

abuse somebody. It's the defense of

53:07

free expression is is is a

53:09

tough thing to do. And

53:12

it does involve defending people

53:14

that you dislike. So

53:18

we all have to do that if we're in that game. Can

53:21

I just ask finally, to what degree

53:23

you've been changed by by the attack? Has

53:26

it made you, I don't know, harder

53:29

to live with easier to live with more humble? What

53:31

would you say? Oh, I

53:34

think I'm a really piece of cake to live with.

53:37

But it's, there's two differences,

53:39

I think, seriously, one is that

53:42

I'm not as strong physically as I used to be. My

53:45

physical strength has not come back 100%. I

53:48

don't know if it gradually will. And

53:50

the other is, I think when you have

53:52

a really close encounter with

53:55

death, when you get a really

53:57

good look at it, never

54:00

entirely goes away. It's

54:03

always, so to speak,

54:05

there's always a shadow in your thoughts,

54:07

in your mind. And I

54:10

think that's what happened to me. I think I now

54:12

have a closer acquaintance with the

54:14

end, which will come to us all, but we don't usually,

54:17

I think, spend our

54:19

lives thinking about it. Well, I do.

54:22

That is Salman Rushdie talking about

54:25

his book, Knife Meditations After an

54:27

Attempted Murder, and just acknowledging their

54:29

feed that obviously after that incident,

54:32

he not surprisingly at all

54:35

does find himself thinking a

54:37

lot more about death

54:39

and mortality and not remotely

54:43

surprising, is it? No. No, I don't

54:45

know how. And I was particularly struck by his agonizing

54:48

over whether he was then 75 at

54:51

the time of the attack, whether he could have

54:53

or should have fought back. But

54:55

none of that, you can't know. I mean,

54:58

it was a 27 seconds, as he

55:00

said, frenzied attack and people

55:02

did come to his aid, but none of

55:04

us know how we'd react and how quickly

55:06

we'd react in those circumstances. So the

55:09

book is really, I mean, I must admit, I'm

55:11

not an expert on his novels at all. But

55:13

this is well worth reading if you want to know something about just

55:16

the obvious and horrendous impact of an

55:18

incident like that on anybody. So it's

55:21

out now and it's called simply nice.

55:24

Just to warn you as well, if you'd

55:26

like to join in our book club conversation,

55:28

then we will be talking about A Dutiful

55:30

Boy by Mohsin Zaidi. And we'll be doing

55:32

that next week. So get a crack on

55:34

with that. And we're talking to him as

55:36

well, aren't we? We are. Yeah. And I

55:39

have to say so far, we haven't had

55:41

a single email saying anything other than wonderful

55:43

things about that book. I think it is

55:45

an extraordinary one. So all hail to the

55:48

people who recommended it to us. So join

55:50

us for that. And if you want to drop us your

55:52

thoughts, it's Jane and Fi at Time Stop Radio. Thank you

55:54

very much indeed. You can put your clothes back on. Well

56:13

done for getting to the end of another

56:15

episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and

56:17

C Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie

56:19

Kotler and the podcast executive producer is Henry

56:21

Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more

56:23

of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's

56:25

Monday to Thursday 3 till 5. You can

56:27

pop us on when you're crotting around the

56:30

house or heading out in the car on

56:32

the school run or running a bank. Thank

56:34

you for joining us and we hope you

56:36

can join us again on Off Air very

56:38

soon. It'd be so silly. Why don't you

56:40

get back? I know lady, let's not. I'm

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