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0:51

From Mamma Mia, I'm Mia Friedman. You're

0:53

listening to No Filter, and I

0:55

never dreamt of being part of

0:57

a thruple when I grew up.

1:00

Does anyone dream of being part of a thruple? That's

1:03

a couple plus one extra, like

1:05

a three-way couple. Maybe

1:07

today young girls or boys do dream of being

1:10

in a thruple, but my guest

1:12

today, Rowan Mangan, didn't, not when she was

1:14

growing up in Melbourne. Do

1:16

you know who else didn't dream of being in a thruple?

1:18

Martha Beck. She's the American

1:20

author and speaker, life coach

1:23

and sociologist whose name you might recognise

1:25

from her self-help books and

1:27

all the times that she's been on Oprah. Martha

1:30

is in her early 60s, and

1:32

before she met Rowan, she'd been with

1:34

her partner Karen for several decades, ever

1:37

since she ended her marriage to the father of

1:39

her three children after they

1:41

both came out as gay. Are you still

1:43

following? Keep up. So to

1:45

recap where we are so far in this story.

1:48

Martha is kind of famous and Rowan

1:50

meets her when she pays to

1:52

go on this annual spiritual retreat

1:54

that Martha does every year or

1:56

two. Nothing happens on

1:58

the retreat, but they meet. And in the

2:01

months afterwards, Rowan is introduced

2:03

to Martha's partner, Karen. And

2:06

look, that is where the plot twists for

2:08

everyone involved in this story, who all thought

2:11

their lives were going along in a fairly

2:13

predictable manner. That's when

2:15

the universe said, look, best you

2:17

don't get too comfortable because I'm going to mess with

2:19

you big time. And

2:21

I know you have lots of questions. It's

2:24

understandable. I did too. Because

2:26

also did I mention that Rowan is in

2:28

her early 40s and Martha, who you'll hear

2:30

Rowan refer to as Marty. That's what everybody

2:33

who knows her calls her. Marty

2:35

and Karen are in their early 60s. Also

2:39

living with them in their family

2:41

home is Adam, Martha's second adult

2:43

child. He is 34

2:45

years old and he has Down syndrome. Plus

2:48

Lila, the little girl Rowan gave birth

2:50

to a couple of years ago. So

2:53

back to questions. Yes, we will get

2:55

to all of them, but what you

2:57

need to understand going in is that

2:59

this really is not a story that

3:01

is salacious or weird or

3:04

sensationalist at all. At its heart, and

3:06

there is so much heart in this

3:08

story, just you wait. It is all

3:10

heart. At its heart, it's

3:12

a story about love like so many no

3:15

filter stories ultimately are. And this is one

3:17

of my favorites. And

3:19

to be honest, as you're about to hear,

3:21

the idea of having two wives is actually

3:23

pretty compelling and I challenge anyone

3:25

to think otherwise after you hear Rowan talk

3:28

about what it's like when three women are

3:30

raising a baby and running a household

3:32

together. Rowan is a pod

3:34

pastor, a writer, and she also works

3:36

with other authors as a kind of

3:38

coach. What she also is, is

3:40

a hoot. We laughed a

3:42

lot during this conversation and I'll meet you back

3:45

here afterwards for a debrief. For

3:47

your listening pleasure, this is No Filter

3:49

with Rowan Mangan talking about Thrapple life.

3:52

In the very strange way, this whole thing

3:55

kicked off in Paris. So

4:01

you went over to do this course. What was

4:03

the course about and where did bedbugs come into

4:05

it? Oh my God. Oh

4:09

man. So I had a

4:11

very weird adventure that began

4:14

in Ireland where I went

4:16

out and like rented this

4:18

house that supposedly is the

4:20

most westerly house in all of Europe.

4:23

And I wrote a novel and

4:25

at the end of that I had

4:27

like a really bad flare

4:30

up of chronic fatigue syndrome, but that didn't

4:32

stop me from going to Paris where

4:35

I encountered in an

4:37

Airbnb some really serious

4:39

bedbugs, which it turns out I'm

4:41

allergic to their bites. And

4:45

all through this time I'd had this end

4:47

goal in sight. At the end of this adventure, I

4:49

was going to South Africa and I was going to

4:51

be in the presence of Martha Beck and

4:54

I was going to show up like

4:56

a goddamn Zen guru.

4:58

I would have meditated every day.

5:00

I was just going to be

5:03

so amazing, like basically levitating. Like

5:06

the wild animals would run up to me

5:08

because my energy would be so amazing. You

5:10

know, there was this moment in this Paris

5:13

apartment where I had chronic

5:15

fatigue. I couldn't stand up. But if I lay down, I

5:18

couldn't wear any of my clothes. I

5:21

couldn't wear any clothes because

5:24

my skin was breaking out so allergic.

5:26

So I'm like in this apartment just

5:28

going, how is this my life? I

5:30

can't sit. I can't stand.

5:32

I can't lie. And so anyway, about 48 hours

5:35

later, I got mugged in Cape

5:37

Town by five

5:39

guys. I arrived

5:42

on the deck in South Africa, like this

5:44

husk of a human being. Just

5:48

like shaking. I've

5:50

heard Martha describe meeting

5:52

you for the first time and hearing

5:54

about this person who was arriving at

5:56

the retreat and getting the updates. She

5:59

got bedbugs. in Paris, she's been

6:01

mugged in South Africa, she's

6:03

going to arrive to us as a

6:05

broken husk. And yet her experience of

6:07

you when you arrived was that

6:10

you were completely zen. How

6:12

did you pull that off? And why were

6:14

you zen? Okay,

6:16

Mia, so the important thing for you

6:18

to know about me in this context

6:20

is that I am exceptionally good at

6:22

being a teacher's pet. Like, I

6:24

have a whole career in like working

6:27

on those skills. I

6:29

just pretended. Pretended.

6:33

Because you wanted to be the most

6:35

enlightened zen person who ever zen at

6:38

the retreat so Martha would notice

6:40

you and think highly of you.

6:42

Yeah, that was the intention. It's

6:45

not my most love stories start

6:47

really with bedbugs and a mugging.

6:50

But was that actually the start

6:52

of the love story? Because it

6:54

wasn't Martha that you fell in

6:56

love with first. What happened after the retreat? It's

6:59

so weird. So one of the things I'd known about

7:01

Martha, because in all her books, she

7:04

always incorporates her personal story

7:06

with the stuff she's trying to teach.

7:08

And so I was very well aware that

7:10

she had been with her partner, Karen,

7:13

for many years. And that was like

7:15

one of those things that was just

7:17

like it was done. That was never

7:19

going anywhere. So that was very

7:21

apparent to me. And so when I

7:23

went to the ranch, it was like, cool, I

7:25

get to meet Karen, I get to hang out

7:27

with Martha some more and these other really cool

7:29

people who are living there. And it

7:32

was very much not a love

7:34

story in South Africa at that point.

7:36

It was like a, you're cool. I

7:39

know you'll take this in the spirit that it's

7:41

intended as a facetious question. But the ranch, you

7:43

say a lot of people were living there. It

7:45

wasn't a sex thing, though, was it? No,

7:48

it totally was. It was

7:50

like, oh my God,

7:52

I can't stress to you enough how much

7:54

it was about horses

7:56

and life coaches. It

8:00

was actually pretty lame. A commune of artists,

8:02

essentially. Yeah, it was like that.

8:04

Like there was this amazing German woman who

8:06

kind of knew how to do dressage. And

8:08

then there was a horse whisperer who was

8:10

the one I was working with. And then

8:13

there was this social worker who

8:15

was just sort of come to work

8:17

on the rest, feet, horses. It sounds

8:19

quite delightful. Tell me a little bit

8:21

about the point in their lives at

8:24

which you met Karen and Martha. So

8:27

you were at this point in

8:29

your mid thirties, pretty unencumbered. They

8:32

had been together for a really long

8:34

time. And before they got together, Martha

8:36

had been married and had children. Yeah,

8:39

so it's a complicated backstory. Martha,

8:41

Marty had been a Mormon,

8:43

grew up Mormon. And so she got married very

8:46

young, had kids very young, like in

8:48

her early twenties. And so

8:50

then she sort of had that part

8:52

of her life and both Karen and Marty are older

8:54

than me. She'd had kids, then

8:56

she got together with Karen, then she and her

8:59

ex-husband and Karen

9:01

and her ex-husband's boyfriend had all raised

9:03

the kids together in a

9:06

house throughout, so they were already

9:08

doing like unconventional living. Interesting. And

9:11

her eldest son, Adam, has

9:13

Down syndrome. Yeah. And

9:15

so by the time you met Karen

9:17

and Marty, they were a long

9:19

term couple. Were they married? No. No,

9:22

Karen has always had a very strong

9:24

thing about her wanting to marriage. And

9:27

two of Marty's children were grown up

9:29

and moved out of home and Adam

9:31

still lived with her and Karen. Yes.

9:33

Yeah. Okay. So enter Rowan. Teach

9:36

us, Pat. Hi, good day,

9:38

everybody. Here I am. Everyone

9:40

loves an Aussie. Yeah, they do. They

9:43

love us. And Marty had been working

9:45

on a novel and she asked me to

9:48

come and do a little book

9:50

midwife conversation after a few weeks. And

9:52

then I don't know, I looked

9:54

after their dogs when they went on a trip. And then

9:56

there was sort of this sort of time where I was

9:58

sort of in and out. there because there were a

10:00

couple of different residences so it wasn't like everyone

10:02

was in one big share house it was

10:05

fairly spread out and then Karen

10:07

and I we used

10:09

this term preoccupied like we'd be like you

10:12

know it's just kind of preoccupied you want

10:14

to go and sit on the swing for

10:16

yeah okay yeah are you

10:18

feeling that preoccupation yeah and

10:21

we didn't explore it because it

10:24

wasn't ever going

10:26

to happen you know what I

10:28

mean like it was so never going to happen it's

10:31

fascinating that it did happen the way it did

10:33

Mia because it couldn't have any

10:35

other way and yet the way that

10:37

everything fell in the end even

10:40

to me now seems impossible

10:42

and astonishing but it did

10:45

and so Karen went

10:47

and had a conversation with Marty I

10:49

don't know I'm having my feelings through

10:51

is this you know some sort of

10:53

familial thing or and Marty just

10:55

said to her no I don't think so

10:57

like I know you pretty well and I think

10:59

this is a bit more than a familial

11:01

thing and she talks about

11:04

it now very much that she had

11:06

this like rush of joy of oh

11:09

Ro and Karen are going to get together and

11:11

I'm going to move into the guest bedroom so

11:14

I sort of started spending more time at their

11:17

house oh and then at this point I was

11:19

working for Marty's company as well so then we

11:21

started having work things that we

11:23

would do together I was doing some writing for them

11:26

and so then it was sort of

11:28

like all three of us suddenly being

11:30

preoccupied and we'd plan out our days

11:32

sometimes they'd come up and in the morning

11:34

and we'd sort of what are we going to

11:37

do and let's just make sure we have plenty of time with

11:39

the three of us sit next to each other on the couch

11:41

a little bit too close let's just make

11:43

sure that that's always just built into the

11:45

schedule for the day right because that's a

11:47

normal thing to do everyone does that it's

11:49

a normal thing that you do with just

11:51

mates yeah colleagues colleagues we

11:54

all want to sit too close to our colleagues on the

11:56

couch for several hours every day

11:58

yeah a little cut out puddle. Did

12:02

you have words or a framework

12:04

to put around this

12:07

at this point? No, I still

12:10

think we don't exactly.

12:12

I think we're actually getting closer as

12:14

time goes by, but it

12:17

was so strange how it happened because once

12:19

we finally started trying to put language to

12:21

it, we would have these, like

12:23

we called them family dinners where everyone living on the ranch

12:25

would have dinner together a few nights a week. And on

12:28

this one day, we thought, all right, we'll go down and

12:30

we should probably say to them, you

12:32

know, we've been spending more time together. And

12:34

just like we're a family. We love

12:37

each other. It's like a family though. It's

12:39

nothing weird. It's nothing gross. Don't

12:41

worry. It's a family. And Marty and

12:43

I were particularly like family

12:46

on this family. Yeah. Karen

12:49

is like a bit of a maverick. Like

12:51

she just really doesn't care. She looks like

12:53

the nicest, sweetest, most

12:56

normal person in the world. And she just

12:58

doesn't give a fuck. And so we

13:01

walked down. Yeah. We're like a family. It's

13:03

cool. Nothing weird. It's all good. And we

13:06

go in and our friend had his phone

13:08

out and was reading a post on Facebook

13:10

that had just been posted by a

13:12

mutual friend that we all knew about how

13:16

she decided to start exploring polyamory. Oh

13:18

wow. He was reading it out

13:20

going, Oh my God. This is

13:23

so, oh my God. How embarrassing.

13:25

I can't believe she's talking about this. No,

13:27

I'm embarrassing. I swear to God. Like we

13:29

had just walked in the door to this

13:32

and we're like family. We've got your family

13:34

speech all prepared. Family is just a family.

13:36

Family. We just care about each other. You

13:38

know, it's just about sitting on the couch

13:40

to the coast. So we

13:42

got like reared off on our hind legs

13:45

to do our little speech about family being a little

13:47

bit shaken by the whole polyamory

13:50

revelation. Oh, and

13:52

we had friends visiting. Sorry. There were like 10 people

13:55

in the room. Friends are visiting

13:57

and Kara shouts. Well,

14:01

I don't know about any of that. I

14:03

just know that I love Marty and I

14:05

love Ro and I'm

14:07

going to get Thai food. And

14:10

she walks out the door like

14:12

the ranch is 45 minutes from

14:15

like a bottle of milk. She

14:17

was gone. Like she was gone and there was

14:20

dust and Marty and I

14:22

are there without like, yeah. So

14:25

honestly, the most awkward silence ever

14:28

of my life. That's a mic drop

14:30

and a half. Yeah. We still

14:32

haven't really forgiven her for that, but it was good. Didn't

14:35

someone also shout or did I

14:37

imagine this? Nothing's happened

14:40

because that's like an important point to

14:42

make. Oh my God. It was

14:44

always like, yeah, I mean that kept

14:47

being the subtext. It's a

14:49

subtext of every conversation, right? Nothing's

14:51

happened. What? Yeah, nothing's

14:53

happened. Are you serious?

14:56

Nothing's happened. Like what?

14:58

I mean, obviously there's couch

15:00

sitting. We have to work together. So

15:02

sometimes the best place to do that is just lying on

15:04

the bed. I mean, that's just obvious,

15:06

but nothing's happened just to

15:08

be clear and we will let you know when

15:10

and if something does happen, but nothing's happened. And

15:13

then at a certain point we were like, why

15:16

would we let them know? When

15:19

do people do that? Like, just to

15:22

update you all. Guys,

15:24

guys. Last night. It's

15:27

so funny because when you look from the outside,

15:29

you would think that it

15:32

would seem like quite a dramatic

15:34

impactful, like

15:36

the decision, right? To be together, the three of

15:38

you. So Marty and

15:41

Karen, essentially, much bigger decision for them

15:43

to open up their relationship to a

15:45

third party. But the

15:47

way you describe it, it was just

15:50

a slow, dawning realization. Like just

15:52

a state of being. Fall

15:54

in love, I guess. Yeah, totally. And

15:56

somewhere in that time, and remember, we

15:58

were really, really... a long way out of

16:01

society and out of culture. We really were at

16:04

the end of a really long road.

16:06

Quite literally, no one drove past us in

16:09

this canyon among friends. So

16:11

we didn't have to date

16:14

or anything like that. So

16:16

we didn't have to name it for a long time.

16:18

It was like

16:21

a gravitational force that

16:24

all three of us, it

16:26

was undeniable what was happening. It was

16:29

so undeniable and so apparent. And

16:31

I don't think it

16:34

felt like opening something

16:36

closed to Karen and Marty. I can't speak for

16:39

them, but it was just more

16:41

like this has

16:43

to be, this is not something that cannot

16:45

be. Because believe me, if we could have not done

16:48

it, we would have, especially Marty and

16:50

me, because we're just like, we don't

16:52

want to be those weirdos.

16:55

If I could avoid being that weirdo,

16:59

I gladly would. But basically at this point,

17:01

it's like, be a

17:03

complete weirdo to society and live

17:07

the happiest life I can imagine. Or the

17:11

opposite, which starts to seem

17:13

kind of stupid. How

17:15

good is this conversation? Up next, I

17:17

ask Rowan how it all works. I

17:20

want to know about logistics. A relationship

17:22

that includes three people has got to

17:24

be pretty complicated, right? I

17:35

want to ask about logistics and not

17:37

sexual ones. I want to ask about

17:39

communication and jealousy and arguing. Because

17:43

three is a complicated number in

17:45

every aspect. And any woman

17:48

who's been in a friendship of three is

17:51

a close friendship. It rarely ends well.

17:54

It's very complicated. How have

17:56

you navigated that dynamic? I

17:59

can imagine. that if all

18:01

three of us had come together

18:04

separately, it would have

18:06

been quite a different thing. But those two

18:08

were so established and they were so

18:10

established as well as being

18:13

partners for all that time. They were really old

18:15

friends. They knew each other really, really well. So

18:18

I could come in and be a complete

18:22

insecure wreck the way that I think

18:24

we often are early in relationships. And

18:27

they would mindlessly call each other

18:29

just for like, do you need

18:31

anything at the shops? And

18:33

I'd be like, can you just call

18:35

me just because then we get

18:38

into a thing where we do that and we do

18:40

things like let's set up a text thread with the

18:42

three of us so that we're all

18:44

what's the text thread called? Wives,

18:50

how do you know that? How did you know to ask that?

18:52

That's creepy. For life. I'm

18:55

just so interested about the dynamic because like

18:57

you said that you fell in love with

18:59

Karen first basically. And then you

19:01

fell in love with Marty. And

19:04

they were already in love. And

19:06

it's so strange. I've been thinking about

19:08

this so much in the lead up

19:10

to our conversation that we never question

19:12

other types of love. Like

19:15

that you can love two children equally

19:17

or two parents equally or two friends

19:19

equally. But this

19:21

idea that you can't love two

19:24

people romantically equally or at the

19:26

same time, that still

19:28

is something that as a culture we

19:30

really struggle with. Yeah.

19:34

When it came into full focus for

19:36

me, exactly what we were doing was

19:38

when our daughter was born. Suddenly

19:40

I understood that when

19:43

our culture looks at relationships

19:46

with more than two people in them, they

19:48

see like a perversion or a

19:51

distortion of a kind of couple in a

19:53

nuclear family. And

19:55

what I see now

19:57

as we struggle to raise this.

20:00

very spirited, very active

20:02

child is, oh my

20:04

God, this isolated nuclear family is a

20:06

distortion of what a community is supposed

20:08

to be. So we're

20:11

behind our fences in our

20:13

little, and disproportionately women are

20:16

completely screwed trying

20:20

to have a career, have a

20:22

kid. It's not a joke and

20:24

there's like that joke of, oh, I need

20:26

a wife. And then I'm like, oh, you

20:28

need two wives. But it's actually not a

20:30

joke. It's like a cry for help really

20:33

deeply. And this

20:35

family structure idea seems

20:37

to be in crisis to me for

20:40

us right now in society,

20:42

the stuff about the mental load. I mean, yeah,

20:44

it's getting a little bit better, but

20:48

it's not that much better. And I don't

20:50

think parents are

20:52

okay in these isolated pods

20:54

that we call normal families,

20:57

particularly when so much of the caregiving responsibility

21:00

defaults to the woman and if she's got

21:02

a male partner or no partner and she's

21:05

isolated, she's probably not living close to,

21:08

let's be honest, other women like her

21:11

mother or if she has sisters or

21:13

mother-in-laws. I'm so envious

21:15

of your experience of having a

21:18

baby that has three mothers and that you

21:20

have two wives. Yeah, and

21:22

it feels like the bare minimum on

21:24

most days. I'm telling you. You know,

21:26

there's a sociologist, I think, called Ali

21:29

Hochchild and she did

21:31

one of the early studies in the 80s about

21:34

this sort of first wave of working mothers coming

21:36

out and she said something like,

21:38

these women talk about sleep the way a

21:40

starving person talks about food.

21:44

And I just think, oh

21:46

my God, this is such a

21:48

cruelty, the way

21:50

that we're structuring

21:53

life in this culture right now. I wanna

21:55

rewind a little bit about the part where you had

21:57

the baby. for

22:00

that. Exactly. Well, I just

22:02

accidentally got rid of the surprise.

22:04

Yeah. So something we

22:07

haven't really touched on is the age

22:10

gap between Karen and

22:12

Marty and you. So they're in their

22:14

late sixties, early seventies. Karen's in

22:16

her mid sixties. Marty's in her early sixties.

22:18

Yeah. Early sixties. Okay. So

22:21

they are literally of a different generation

22:23

to you. Yeah. Karen hadn't had any

22:25

biological children, but she and Marty should

22:27

raise, raise, raise children. But they were in

22:29

a different phase of their life. Was having a child

22:32

something you always knew you wanted to do? Yeah. And

22:35

you really know that

22:38

you're in a good relationship when people who

22:40

didn't think they were going to be any

22:42

more babies and nappy changes and stuff are

22:44

like, absolutely, of course, if

22:46

that's the dream, then it's our dream. We're

22:49

on, let's do it. Right. So obviously

22:51

you sorted some sperm, you got

22:53

pregnant, that kind of been easy

22:55

IVF the whole nine yards. Yeah.

22:59

What did you discuss about

23:01

it before your daughter was

23:03

born in terms of roles,

23:06

ways of parenting? Cause it

23:08

was very much in the rear view mirror for them, but

23:11

it was brand new first time experience for

23:13

you. Yeah. It's a good question. And of

23:16

course I was like, you're always a bit

23:18

naive, right? About what you're getting into. And,

23:21

but I was always very clear that with

23:23

Marty, because she does so

23:25

much of the work, you know,

23:27

she does so much for our household in terms

23:29

of the work that she does. And because she's

23:31

in terms of bread winning, in terms of

23:34

bread winning. And she did

23:36

the hard yards with three kids, you know,

23:39

before Karen came along, she had all three

23:41

of them and it was really tough. And so I

23:43

was quite adamant that neither of them were

23:45

getting up in the night. That was a really clear one

23:47

for me. And that's been almost a

23:50

constant. I thought I could do without

23:53

Karen more than I can. I sort

23:56

of wasn't as clear with her as What

23:58

do you mean? I just

24:01

need more support than I thought

24:03

I would. You mean physical, emotional,

24:05

logistical? Yeah, mostly

24:07

physical, logistical. I mean, Karen's a

24:10

tank. She's a morning person. God

24:12

love it. She's up, she's around,

24:14

she's moving fast. She's like... Getting

24:16

shit done. She's getting shit done. She's

24:18

always getting shit done for our family. And

24:20

we would completely crumble without

24:23

her. It's sort of interesting,

24:25

right? So if you look at it in terms of,

24:28

I'm the biological mum, work

24:30

full-time. I have a three

24:32

and a half year old with special needs. And

24:34

I have one

24:37

female partner who is

24:40

working really hard at a very high level to

24:42

make money for our family. And I have one

24:44

female partner who's working really hard to

24:47

support me and our household and

24:49

do grocery shopping and do pickups

24:51

and do runs to the doctor when I

24:53

can't make it and all of this. And

24:56

I'm like, we're just COVID. How

24:59

are women doing this on their own?

25:02

I was going to say it sounds like a

25:04

dream, but it's reassuring in a way to know

25:06

that you can never

25:08

have enough women to help you. You can't.

25:11

No, it's so true. And on

25:13

that point, knowing that this could

25:15

happen once, does

25:18

it daunt any of you or give you

25:20

pause that it could happen again? The

25:23

kismet of Rowan coming in

25:26

and everyone becoming preoccupied

25:30

could happen again. Have you thought

25:32

about that? No, we talk about

25:34

it all the time. We've got Kate Blanchett

25:36

on the list. And it's very, very clear

25:38

on that. And Gina from Alone Australia. You

25:41

know what I mean? Like they had in

25:43

their minds, right, we're locked and loaded. Oh,

25:45

wait, this life is not as locked and

25:48

loaded as we thought. Is that an exciting

25:50

possibility to live with? Or

25:52

you talked about your insecurity before. Is

25:55

it one that makes you think, oh,

25:57

maybe they'll get sick of me. Maybe I'll get sick of

25:59

them. Maybe this person that

26:01

we're doing an interview with, Marty

26:04

might become preoccupied with her. Maybe

26:06

Karen. Does it make the

26:08

ground feel unsteady underneath your feet?

26:11

This has never crossed my mind.

26:13

That is so interesting. I think

26:16

it felt so billion to

26:18

one when it happened and

26:20

so out of character for all of us. None

26:24

of us identifies as anything other

26:26

than monogamous. We're just a little

26:28

monogamous clump. You know what I

26:30

mean? Some people really feel like

26:32

polyamory is their identity. I'm not

26:34

sure if it's a sexual identity

26:36

or it's a broader identity, but

26:40

that's not exactly how we feel. It

26:42

just happened to fall this way for

26:44

us. It feels like the door was

26:46

closed behind you. Yeah, I know that's

26:48

very literal. Yeah, not officially.

26:51

I genuinely, you're asking that question.

26:53

I'm like, I should have

26:55

thought of that. Yeah, wow. But you said

26:57

you were insecure. What were you insecure about?

26:59

Of course I would be too. But the

27:01

fact that they had so much history, so

27:04

much shared in jokes,

27:06

references, stories, all

27:08

of that. You were like, hi, I'm Rowan.

27:10

I've been here for five minutes. Yeah,

27:12

exactly. Exactly. They're like, oh, I

27:15

remember Bob. Oh, yeah. All

27:17

of that sort of stuff. I wasn't born when you were

27:19

talking about this particular story. Do

27:21

you ever throw that in their face a little bit? Sorry,

27:24

I was only two. Don't remember that song.

27:27

Yeah, no, I do. I

27:29

was insecure, but it was very much about their

27:31

connection with each other. Yes, exactly. And

27:33

just how could I ever kind of

27:35

break into, you know, there's a voice

27:38

that couples do with each other

27:40

after a certain point that has

27:42

no inflection. It's just like the

27:44

complete, did you get milk? Oh,

27:47

yes. Oh, yes. And

27:49

they had that with each other and they didn't have

27:52

it with me. With me, it'd be I'd walk through

27:54

and they'd be like, hey. And I'm like, can't you

27:56

just ignore me and then ask me if I got

27:58

milk? Like, so you wanted to skip. to the part

28:00

where they were sort of taking you for granted a

28:03

little bit and you weren't such a novelty because that

28:05

was true intimacy to you. I wanted it

28:07

all to be equal, but what we found

28:09

over time is that it's not equality.

28:11

It's like we're all bringing something completely

28:14

complementary in because Marty and I work

28:16

together so much and how we work

28:18

together is so different and how Karen

28:20

and I parent together. We

28:22

do the bulk of the parenting together and so that's, and not

28:24

that it's all about work. We also have really

28:27

unique relationships with each

28:29

other that are one-on-one. Yeah. Do

28:32

you have like one-on-one time? Like

28:36

will there be a time when you're like consciously,

28:38

oh, I've been spending heaps of time

28:40

with Karen. I haven't really had a

28:42

conversation properly with Marty or vice

28:45

versa. We used to. I used

28:47

to do a lot more like Karen and

28:49

I would have a lot of date nights and stuff because

28:51

Marty and I were working together. We're

28:54

very, very conscientious about doing communing

28:56

time, the three of us and

28:58

that feels really super important. When do you

29:01

do that? Oh,

29:03

cuddles on the couch. Periodically throughout the day.

29:05

This morning communion, if possible,

29:07

we squeak in a little communion middle of

29:09

the day. When you say communion, explain what

29:11

you mean. We commune.

29:13

Like we sit and

29:15

we talk about whatever, like we check in

29:18

with each other. Give this

29:20

rhythm to our days

29:22

and our relationship that I actually can't

29:24

help feeling like commune, community,

29:26

right? Like these

29:28

rhythms of interaction,

29:31

these sort of rituals that we

29:33

build into our lives are sort

29:35

of how we're supposed to be with

29:39

the people around us. I mean,

29:41

in a broader sort of way. That's

29:44

the meaning of life, right? To hang out with your

29:46

besties. So that's what we try to

29:48

do. We have Trinity time every night before

29:50

we all go off to our separate

29:52

bedrooms that we created during COVID.

29:55

That is the best thing. And

29:58

I feel like that's the greatest thing. Because I

30:00

mean three people in a bed, I'm sorry.

30:03

Oh no, that was never. That was too many people. And then when

30:05

the baby's coming in, oh my God. What the

30:07

heck does the person in the middle do? You

30:09

have got no bedside table. I used to

30:12

like imagine, could I put something above where

30:14

I could just have my water bottle, you

30:16

know? That's very much the short straw being

30:18

in the middle, I would imagine. Yeah, yeah,

30:20

it's not all. So you

30:22

decided to have separate bedrooms, smart.

30:25

So then your communion time

30:28

is like in communal areas,

30:30

but then you've all got separate identities as well

30:32

as your identity as a threesome,

30:35

but then your identity as couples too. Yeah.

30:38

I mean that makes it sound like maths, but go maths.

30:41

No, yeah. It's actually harder to describe

30:43

than I thought. Go on. Marty,

30:46

hey, what are you guys doing tonight? Oh, we're going on

30:48

date night. Oh, can

30:50

I come? No, it's date night, Marty. Marty,

30:53

we're going on date night. Marty, does that mean

30:56

I can paint and have some solitude? Are you

30:58

serious? Oh my God, best night ever.

31:02

I hadn't thought about it like that. But that

31:04

has to come from a place of security,

31:07

obviously. Yeah. And

31:09

how do you feel when they go on date night? Or

31:11

they don't go on date night? They don't go on date

31:13

night. Well, they have 30 years to get all that. Yeah,

31:15

they're like, no, it's fine. But

31:18

I mean, with any group of three, there will

31:20

always be times when someone is

31:22

shitting you, right? What

31:25

happens when the same person

31:27

is shitting two of you? All

31:29

right, so this is how it's done in our

31:31

family. I will come up to Karen

31:33

and I will say, I know

31:35

this isn't reasonable. You know, the pressure

31:38

is building up and I just need to vent and I don't

31:40

mean anything bad by it. But Marty has

31:42

drove me fucking crazy because

31:44

she did this and she did this and she did this and

31:46

Karen goes, oh, yeah, I know how that

31:48

is. And then I'm like, cool. Thanks.

31:52

Catch you later. That's it because it's

31:54

actually the safest space to bitch because

31:57

on the one hand, it's completely

31:59

understandable. understood that this is someone

32:02

that you love. And on the other

32:04

hand, it's completely understood

32:06

that every one of us is

32:08

as annoying as all get out,

32:11

especially when you live, work, parent

32:14

together. So when would that

32:16

go bad? Like if Karen went, yeah,

32:19

I hate it when she does that, that, that, and

32:21

that, and you go, yeah.

32:24

At what point would you be betraying Marty or

32:26

whoever it was? I think

32:29

it can't turn toxic because

32:31

there's a kind of container

32:33

of love and

32:35

respect that it happens inside

32:37

of. And then because we're

32:39

always recalibrating with these communion

32:41

sessions, we recalibrate our energy

32:43

and so it

32:45

can't get sort of clicky or

32:48

faction-y or whatever. The fact

32:50

that Karen just goes, oh, I know

32:52

what that's like. That's all you need to hear.

32:55

But if you'd have gone and said that to

32:57

Marty or whoever, like Marty, you blah, blah, blah,

32:59

she would have gone, no, but you're blah, blah,

33:01

blah. And I'm not. And then that's

33:03

a fight. Yeah. Because sometimes all you need,

33:05

you're right. All you need is for someone to just go, oh, that's

33:08

so annoying. And I

33:10

know exactly because I also live with that.

33:15

Correct. Yeah. The

33:17

term, Compersion. Yeah. What

33:20

is it? Because it feels like it's

33:22

the key to unlocking this whole caper. Yeah.

33:26

It is. And it's so interesting because we only

33:28

learned that. It was like we got together and

33:30

then we're like, shit, we'd better figure out what

33:32

we're doing. So we started like trying to

33:34

read about polyamory and we were all just like, all

33:37

right. That's what we are. That's

33:39

the preoccupation. But that term

33:42

is massive one for us. So poly people

33:44

talk about Compersion as the feeling of

33:46

love and joy that you get when

33:48

you see your two partners loving on

33:51

each other, more or less, I think.

33:54

And it is so true.

33:57

It's so true. I mean, it's got to be similar to.

34:00

like you were talking about having more than one

34:02

kid, like if you see your two kids being

34:04

adorable together, I think it must

34:06

be similar to that. You know, if you

34:09

take sort of sexual stuff out of it

34:11

and any sense of ownership or whatever, which

34:13

we don't really do anyway, it's

34:15

just gorgeous when

34:18

there's love around. I

34:20

know what that feels like with my

34:22

children now that they're older and they

34:24

have their own partners, watching

34:26

them be loved by their own

34:28

partners is like, I don't

34:31

know if Compersion only applies to people

34:33

you're in a romantic relationship with, but

34:35

that idea of watching someone you love,

34:37

be loved by someone else,

34:41

lifts your soul in such a way

34:43

that that was actually helpful for me

34:45

to understand the flip

34:48

side of the jealousy that everyone straight away

34:50

asks you about in a trouble situation because

34:52

everyone can only see the jealousy. But

34:55

the Compersion is that word that reflected

34:57

love and joy. And it's

34:59

like this person can be loved

35:01

without me needing to center myself

35:03

in that. Like I can

35:06

be taking a nap and that person can be

35:08

loved and cared for. I

35:10

can be looking after myself. I can go

35:12

under a bus and that person will be

35:14

loved and cared for. The person I love

35:16

will not, you know, like there's

35:18

something so liberating about that

35:20

feeling as well. Wow,

35:22

it's the opposite of dependence,

35:24

isn't it? Sounds very freeing.

35:27

Yeah, it totally is. Yeah, it's

35:29

kind of awesome. How

35:41

has the baby changed dynamics

35:44

in terms of the roles of

35:46

everybody in the house? And

35:48

where does Adam fit into all this?

35:50

Because Adam still lives there. He's like

35:52

a vital part of our sort of

35:55

weird family. His role is the big

35:58

brother. He is a total nut. arc

36:00

when it comes to Lila, he's always

36:02

watching her and going, now what's she

36:04

up to? And like not

36:07

letting her get away with anything. But

36:09

they're always like you'll look over and if

36:11

they think you're not watching, he'll always be

36:13

like tickling her feet or something like it's

36:16

an incredibly sweet relationship.

36:18

And because with Down

36:20

syndrome, routine is super,

36:22

super, super important. So Adam

36:25

really holds us in our rituals

36:27

in our family rituals that feel

36:29

like the real backbone of

36:32

how we function. And remember,

36:34

like, we're all working from home

36:37

and we're all hermits. So,

36:40

Dave's introverts. How did Adam deal with

36:43

you coming into the family? It's so

36:45

weird. Like all three of Marty and

36:47

Karen's kids are so

36:50

freaking cool. Like if

36:52

you can imagine the odds of us

36:55

coming together and making it work, imagine the

36:57

odds then of having the

37:00

people closest, most affected, like

37:02

by a weird new family

37:04

dynamic being like, this is

37:07

awesome. When we first got

37:09

together, Adam was walking

37:11

around beaming for weeks. He

37:13

started singing in his room more often. He

37:15

always likes to sort of sing on a

37:17

Sunday afternoon that tends to be his singing

37:19

time. And he puts on his headphones and

37:21

he like gets out the high

37:24

school musical soundtrack and glee and stuff and

37:26

just goes for it. He

37:28

started doing that almost every day. He loved

37:30

it. He was so happy. What

37:32

about parents? What about each of your parents?

37:35

Well, with the generation thing,

37:38

it's not such

37:40

an issue with their parents. Karen's

37:42

mother died a year ago and

37:44

before that she was just

37:47

the absolute sweetest,

37:49

kindest, like little old

37:51

Danish lady. Karen goes down

37:54

to Florida to tell her, mom,

37:57

Marty and I have a new partner. Karen

38:00

doesn't care, don't give a shit. And

38:02

her mother's just like, listens to this whole story and

38:04

then just says, Oh,

38:06

your father and I never felt the

38:08

need for that. And

38:12

Karen's like, Oh, cool. But

38:16

my parents have been amazing. Absolutely

38:19

amazing. Like my mum, she

38:22

just finished reading this book by Anna Funder

38:24

about George Orwell's wife and she like rang

38:26

me a couple of days ago and she's

38:28

just like, Oh, I'm so

38:30

glad you're not with a man. Oh

38:33

God, I'm just so relieved. She's

38:38

like, yeah, the hectic book, that

38:41

book. I'm looking forward to reading it.

38:43

Yeah. Was this your first relationship

38:45

with women? My

38:47

first long-term relationship. Yeah. I've been

38:49

with guys before mostly. People

38:52

like to have categorisations for how do

38:54

you classify yourself. I know

38:56

that when you spoke to Glennon and Abby,

38:58

it's that idea of, you

39:00

mentioned monogamous, but also

39:02

queer and the fact that identifying

39:05

as queer already makes you to a

39:07

degree or certainly in the case of

39:10

Karen and Marty and their generation, a

39:12

bit outside the culture, a bit counter cultural. And

39:16

so this is sort of just an extension of

39:18

that, but for you, you've

39:20

gone to a high degree of difficulty outside the

39:23

culture in one step. Has

39:28

it made a difference that

39:30

you sort of were a bit fluid prior,

39:33

like that your mind was open? Yeah.

39:35

Oh, definitely. I was

39:37

never very concerned

39:39

about gay or straight. That, I mean, I was lucky

39:42

I grew up in, in a Melbourne, like it was

39:44

never huge deal.

39:46

And so I remember like kind

39:48

of shame face at one point

39:50

coming in to my parents going, I

39:53

think I like boys. Sorry

39:55

to be like, anyway, we're not angry.

39:58

We're just disappointed. Anyway,

40:00

in the end, thank God it was just a phase.

40:03

But, you know, in a weird way, it has

40:07

been the fuel for kind of

40:09

a new world view. And like

40:11

the work we do increasingly is

40:13

kind of powered by the fact

40:15

that we know for sure that

40:18

even if every day you have

40:21

to feel uncomfortable describing

40:23

your family, figuring out

40:25

how to fill out the preschool

40:27

forms or at the doctor, like what, you

40:30

know, what do you do? I didn't even think of

40:32

that. And their birth certificate. Birth certificate's

40:34

Mardi because we're legally married. Don't

40:37

even get me started on America, though,

40:39

because we also, Mardi also had to

40:42

adopt her because in some

40:44

states, if I went under a bus, this

40:46

anonymous sperm donor would

40:49

be her father even though Mardi's on the

40:51

birth certificate. But all that

40:53

paperwork, right? Like all that paperwork stuff. It

40:55

is, yeah. Yeah. And it's just to be

40:58

on the safe side. But so

41:00

the birth certificate was fine. That was straightforward.

41:02

But yeah, it's always the descriptions. I didn't.

41:04

Yeah. And it's like, oh, so who's her

41:06

dad? Wow. How

41:08

long has it got? Even

41:12

with us, it's like, which one's the man? It's like, depends

41:15

on the day we share it around. I

41:18

guess there's three countercultural things that you're

41:20

doing because you're such a high achiever

41:22

and a teacher's pet. Thanks,

41:25

mate. It's the same sex relationship, throuple,

41:27

and also two women who are the

41:29

generation older than you. Yeah. Which

41:32

of those three things

41:34

does society have the biggest

41:37

problem with in your experience? Society

41:39

has the biggest problem with three people.

41:42

I have the biggest problem with the age gap.

41:44

Why? I feel

41:47

like it's harder to

41:49

explain, but I've always

41:51

had older partners. And so

41:54

I don't know, but I always

41:57

feel like my partner and then they

41:59

show up. and they're like, is that

42:01

your partner or your mum? Yeah. You know

42:03

that thing? That one's harder for me. But

42:06

the three people for sure, like that's a no-brainer.

42:08

So that was a lot

42:10

to unpack wasn't it? And it was

42:12

all glorious. I so enjoyed that conversation.

42:14

Rowan just made me laugh when I said

42:17

to her, how did you get pregnant?

42:19

And she said it was a accident. That

42:21

was funny. I think she is just a

42:24

hoot. And I just think

42:27

that the whole situation sounds so,

42:29

I'm gonna say so

42:31

healthy and so wonderful

42:33

and warm and supportive and

42:37

kind of ideal. Like

42:39

it just seems to make so much sense. I

42:41

thought that interview would be a lot longer because

42:43

I thought we'd have a lot more questions.

42:46

But it all just seems so natural and

42:48

normal when Rowan talks about it. And

42:50

it's just a further reminder that families come in

42:52

so many different shapes and sizes

42:54

and configurations. And at the heart of

42:56

it, the important thing is love. That

42:58

the love is there. And if you're

43:00

wondering about why I didn't ask a

43:02

very direct question about sex stuff. When

43:05

I was talking to Rowan about doing

43:08

this interview, and I always rely on people

43:11

to trust me and to come

43:13

on this podcast and talk about some really personal

43:15

things and make themselves really vulnerable.

43:18

I always want to make

43:21

them understand that I'm going in with good

43:23

faith. And the sex

43:26

question just feels really

43:28

reductive. It feels really intrusive.

43:30

It feels really personal. And

43:33

I think that, you know, I have

43:35

no filter. But even I can see

43:37

when something could just be

43:40

taken out of context by perhaps, I

43:42

don't know, the Daily Mail and

43:44

turned into a story that

43:47

made them look like sex weirdos. That

43:49

was Rowan's description. She said,

43:51

I just don't want us to come across as

43:54

sex weirdos. They're not sex

43:56

weirdos. They're just lovely, beautiful women who

43:59

are in love with each other. and in a relationship with

44:01

each other. And we're all more than our sex lives,

44:03

aren't we? Aren't we? So there you go.

44:05

There's nothing weird about it. They're just

44:08

a family of a different shape. Family, it's

44:10

family, it's all about family. If you wanna

44:12

hear more from Rowan, and my goodness, why

44:14

wouldn't you? She actually co-hosts the podcast. You

44:16

heard her talking about it in the episode.

44:19

It's called Bewildered, but when I

44:22

say that, you think, oh, it's

44:24

Bewildered, they're Bewildered. It's her and

44:26

Martha, but it's actually Bewildered. The

44:29

word wild, but anyway, you'll understand if

44:31

you go and find it. We'll put a link

44:33

in the show notes. We'll also put a link

44:35

to Rowan's Instagram, and

44:38

I've just besotted with

44:40

this very interesting, excellent

44:43

family. If you've got an

44:45

interesting family, or an interesting story, if there's someone

44:47

that you've come across that you think

44:49

I should interview, we'll put a

44:51

link in the show notes, and you can

44:53

make any suggestions or feedback that you have

44:55

about the show right there. This

44:58

episode of No Filter was produced by Kimberly

45:00

Bradish and Gia Moiland. The sound production by

45:02

Leah Porges. I'm Mia Friedman,

45:04

and it's been a hoot to

45:07

be in your ears with Rowan today. I

45:09

will see you next week.