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1:31

to the New Books Network. Hello

1:35

everyone and welcome to the

1:37

New Book Podcast. I'm Deidre

1:39

Tyler-Hosse. Today we'll be talking

1:41

with Kevin Woodson, author of

1:43

The Black Silling, How

1:45

Race Still Matters in the Elite Workplace.

1:49

How are you doing today? I'm doing

1:51

well. Thank you for having me. Thank you.

1:54

I wonder if you could start by

1:56

telling us a few words about yourself

1:58

and how you got started. I'm

2:00

goose. tried. yeah. Sure,

2:02

Well I've always been interested in

2:05

issue the race and inequality. Ah,

2:07

going back to high school and

2:10

college of but wasn't until I

2:12

became a lawyer myself twenty years

2:14

ago. Are. Working at one

2:17

of the largest and most preceded

2:19

law firms in the country that

2:21

I became a tune to some

2:23

the specific challenges. That. Many

2:25

Black professional experience in the workplace.

2:28

And although I've read quite a

2:30

bit in my Sociology classes and

2:32

during my free time, a. About.

2:35

Some of these the challenges that that

2:37

black professor know the members of the

2:39

black middle class faith in the workplace.

2:42

Or the experiences that I had

2:44

at the from and I guess more

2:46

importantly, Are. The things that

2:48

I observed and the information I

2:50

got during my conversations with colleagues

2:53

and friends who were working and

2:55

other firms. Made. Me think

2:57

that there was a whole lot to

2:59

this puzzle and wasn't really being discussed

3:01

yet. And. That's.

3:03

Because the challenges that

3:05

I was seeing and

3:07

hearing people discussing. Really?

3:10

Seem to be a lot more complicated. And

3:13

subtle. Than the problems that

3:15

I had seen discussed in that the

3:17

books and articles that I've read over

3:19

the years. And the other

3:21

piece to it was that there

3:24

was some black professionals who were

3:26

at doing just fine who were

3:28

having these amazing career experiences there

3:30

and sounds really fascinated by the

3:32

differences and all the nuances. Ah,

3:34

But of course I was a lawyer back

3:36

then, so I didn't have any plans actually

3:38

study it. Let. Alone right about

3:41

it, but for unrelated reasons. I

3:43

returned to grad school shortly after

3:45

that. And. While I

3:47

was getting my phd at Princeton in

3:50

Sociology. I. Decided

3:52

to write about this for a

3:54

seminar paper. And ah,

3:56

the paper when well, and the teacher

3:58

of the class. Turn out

4:00

to be my dissertation adviser encouraged

4:03

me to expand it and turn

4:05

into a dissertation and eventually into

4:07

a book. Ah, So long

4:09

story short, here we are. Great.

4:12

Now you start the broke off

4:15

talking about Gerber and Fonterra. About

4:18

that stars. Source:

4:21

So Deborah in Sandra Him and

4:23

I'll just be clear though the

4:25

map their real names of those

4:27

a pseudonym that I used to

4:29

protect their their confidentiality. Ah but

4:31

there to real people. Who.

4:34

Are both were are black women

4:36

who began their careers at the

4:38

same law from within a year

4:41

or so of each other. And.

4:44

And a lot of things in

4:46

common. So of both had at

4:48

least one parent who was a

4:50

secondary school educator. Both.

4:53

Were I had attended the

4:55

same law school. And.

4:58

Have it. Both were black women as

5:00

I mentioned. So you would think that

5:02

at least sociologists approach these topics. That.

5:05

They would be similarly situated.

5:07

Am. Would likely have very similar

5:10

experiences. Ah but that of

5:12

course was not what happens of

5:14

founder of was widely regarded as

5:16

a rising superstar at the farm.

5:19

On. The book as share her

5:21

her quotes were even though she's

5:23

not a she didn't believe that

5:25

The Farm is this post racial

5:27

oasis or anything, but she felt

5:29

that she had an amazing time

5:32

in that race hadn't really disadvantaged

5:34

her. Ah, But Deborah,

5:36

on the other hand, was having a

5:38

very difficult time at the From. For

5:41

Deborah had. Ah,

5:44

Felt like an outsider from her

5:46

first. Ah from from early

5:48

in her career at the From. And.

5:51

never really was able to develop

5:53

the relationships and the networks in

5:55

the access to the high quality

5:57

work that could help her for

6:00

a successful career at the firm. So

6:02

by the time I interviewed them, Sandra

6:05

was just a couple of years away from making

6:07

partner and she eventually did. And

6:09

Deborah was on her way out the door. And

6:11

in fact, she was so frustrated that she ended

6:14

up leaving the legal profession all together in a

6:16

little while. Now,

6:20

in the book you use many terms,

6:22

I want you to tell the audience the

6:25

difference between racial discomfort

6:28

and social alienation. Yes,

6:31

so I should say, I don't go around making

6:33

up these terms in real life, but I thought

6:35

it might be useful for a book like this

6:37

that was touching upon topics

6:39

that don't really get discussed enough.

6:42

So racial discomfort is kind of

6:45

the overall umbrella term that I

6:47

use to describe all

6:50

of these problems and

6:53

challenges that black

6:55

professionals often experience as a

6:57

result of feeling uncomfortable in

7:00

these predominantly white

7:02

firms. And

7:05

that has a number of components.

7:08

There are different types of racial

7:10

discomfort. And I focus

7:12

on two in particular, social

7:14

alienation is one of them. So

7:16

social alienation is the term

7:19

that I've developed to refer

7:21

to subtle ways in

7:23

which people end up being excluded and

7:26

made to feel like outsiders because

7:29

their personal backgrounds and

7:32

their social interests, their cultural

7:34

tastes differ from those

7:36

of the dominant groups in their

7:39

workplaces. And

7:41

the cultural traits and the

7:43

social preferences of their, typically

7:46

their white male colleagues end up being

7:48

taken for granted in

7:50

ways that shape the everyday

7:53

interactions people have at work. You know,

7:55

the small talk people have at meetings,

7:58

The Social. Gatherings and activity

8:01

that people end up doing outside

8:03

of the office. And

8:05

also sometimes official Fum happy

8:07

hour, the networking events, And

8:10

so. It really is a

8:12

subtle problem that leads to a lot

8:14

of black professionals feel like they just

8:17

don't belong. They don't fit in. And

8:19

it's just too difficult for

8:21

them to try to find

8:23

a way in. So. Many

8:26

and of withdrawing socially and

8:28

as a result. And. Of

8:30

not having the kinds of relationships

8:32

that are necessary to thrive in

8:34

these in these terms. An

8:37

ear book to talk about

8:39

racial reef management. Would. Is

8:42

it? Is this emotionally taxing.

8:45

Yes, So race or

8:47

risk management is. Something.

8:51

That people do when they

8:54

are concerned about the risk

8:56

of discrimination. And so

8:59

this is part of the other

9:01

type of a race discomfort that

9:03

I focus on in his book.

9:05

It's something that refer to a

9:07

stigma, anxiety. And. The

9:09

idea of there. Is that if

9:11

you remember of a stigmatized group. And

9:14

in America, Black people have long

9:16

been stigmatized in the sense that

9:19

we have a lot of negative

9:21

stereotypes and assumptions and biases. Ah,

9:24

If you remember of such a group. Are

9:26

many instances you have to be. Alert

9:29

to the possibility that somebody

9:31

might treat you unfairly. Or.

9:34

Discriminate against you because you

9:36

remember that group and so

9:38

many black professionals who are

9:41

beginning their career than these

9:43

firms. They know

9:45

the statistics. They. Know that.

9:48

Ah, Black people tend not to do

9:50

well in these firms in the sense

9:52

that they end up either having different

9:55

miserable experiences and leaving on their own

9:57

accord. Or. They

9:59

and. Be terminated or not

10:01

promoted to partner and so with

10:03

that background knowledge and also they're

10:06

aware of the pop. The problem

10:08

with implicit bias. So the fact

10:10

that many people might have these

10:12

biases and really hard to tell

10:14

who's who. Of.

10:17

Because. Of that awareness, they try

10:19

to navigate certain situations at work.

10:22

To manage the risk.

10:24

That. They'll be discriminated against racially.

10:27

And. This. Six the number

10:29

of forms I think the maybe

10:31

the textbook example is the person

10:33

who doesn't speak up a T

10:35

meetings. Because. She's worried

10:38

that. Some. Of her colleagues.

10:41

Might. Be know, especially critical

10:43

of anything she has to say.

10:46

So. There's one such a person I

10:48

interviewed of. Of

10:50

an attorney who explained that

10:52

she had actually been criticized

10:54

in her performance reviews for

10:56

not speaking up. Not.

10:59

Seeming engaged enough and she explained that

11:01

is because it as a black woman.

11:03

She. Felt that she had to make

11:06

sure that everything she said was one

11:08

hundred percent beyond reproach in a completely

11:10

impeccable and she felt that some of

11:13

her white male peers didn't have to

11:15

do that so they could speak up

11:17

and considered freely and comfortably. Ah,

11:20

Whereas she had to kind of hang

11:22

back and make sure the sub with

11:24

one hundred percent certain about everything. And.

11:26

So gave the wrong impression which are

11:29

kind of. Led. To her getting

11:31

negative reviews. And was

11:33

also taxing for her emotionally and

11:35

psychologically in a feeling like she's

11:37

at a disadvantage and they're all

11:39

these possible bad things that can

11:41

happen to you just for opening

11:43

your mouth and doing the things

11:45

that other people are doing. For.

11:48

Very taxing. And.

11:50

Ah the stress that it causes

11:53

can lead to people leaving their

11:55

from to search for employment somewhere

11:57

else. Now.

12:00

Your book. You look at personal

12:02

traits and life history. How

12:04

did you find that? To. Be very important.

12:08

Yeah, so out. One of the

12:10

things that I think it's distinctive

12:12

about this about my My Book

12:14

of is that I do focus

12:16

on life history a bit more

12:18

than many people who are kind

12:20

of writing about similar topics. And.

12:22

This was just something was a suspicion I

12:25

had. When I first

12:27

began doing this research. I

12:29

wasn't quite sure how our life histories would matter.

12:31

Had a feeling that social class would have something

12:33

to do with it. But. Ah,

12:36

Over the course of my

12:38

interview that became clearer and

12:40

clearer that. The. People

12:43

that people's previous life

12:45

experiences in terms of

12:47

their prior. Ah,

12:49

Interracial relationships

12:51

socially professionally.

12:54

I been romantically. Ah

12:56

or familial relationships for people who

12:58

are from multi racial families. Ah

13:01

in many instances seem to give

13:03

them an advantage. In

13:05

the sense that he gave him an

13:07

extra level of comfort and familiarity. With.

13:10

A lot of the p types of people

13:12

that they were working with that these firms.

13:15

So. They had a little that much more in common

13:17

with them. And that seem

13:19

to play a role in

13:21

helping some people. So.

13:24

That being said, it doesn't help

13:26

everyone and a definite silly prevent

13:28

you from being discriminated against. But.

13:30

It is a potential advantage for

13:33

people who had those high quality

13:35

experiences in relationships in the past.

13:37

So. Some of the most successful

13:40

people I interviewed. Where. People who

13:42

you know mention that. Growing

13:45

up, they were. Of

13:47

has had a motive race or

13:49

even have an all white friends

13:51

zip circle and they were well

13:53

received and had a lot of

13:55

great memories and experiences with those

13:57

friends and. Ah, where they

14:00

were killed the President at a majority

14:02

white high school or college. And so

14:04

those types of background experiences I think

14:06

just kind of gave them. A

14:09

sense of familiarity, familiarity and

14:11

comfort that can be helpful.

14:13

I on the flipside if

14:15

people have had a lot

14:18

of negative experiences interracial in

14:20

the past. That. Can

14:22

also lead to you

14:24

being that much more

14:26

concerned. About. What's going

14:28

to happen to you at the From. And.

14:30

It can feed into what I was just

14:33

discussing the stigma, anxiety in the race or

14:35

risk management. And. That

14:38

can be detrimental in some

14:40

instances because. There's

14:42

some situations where to thrive. You

14:44

have to kind of proceed as

14:46

if you're not worried about discrimination.

14:49

Ah, whether that's realistic, are not that sort

14:51

of what it takes some time to to

14:53

really sign. And. If.

14:56

You had a lot of negative

14:58

experiences we've had Teachers or the

15:00

classmates of your the for the

15:02

the parents of your classmates may

15:04

be your classmates in college saying

15:07

negative things are or having these

15:09

bad encounters with them racially. Zack

15:11

and making that much harder for you. Be comfortable

15:14

at the Farm. Now

15:16

you talk about racial Separate?

15:18

Nice. Being. A professional like

15:21

him as he. Can you

15:23

explain it to miss? Yes,

15:25

so that kind of goes hand in hand

15:27

with what I was just discussing and and

15:30

the racial separate mrs this kind of broad

15:32

time I used to. Refer

15:34

to it I guess Different phenomena that

15:36

some people would cost segregation. Ah,

15:39

But just the tendency in America

15:41

for people to. Have

15:43

friendship circles and relationships

15:45

with people, Who. Are

15:48

of the same racial groups. Scuse

15:50

me And so for much of our

15:52

lives we can do that. And.

15:55

It's not a problem at all if.

15:57

we have all black friends in

15:59

com or a white

16:02

person is all white friends in college,

16:04

that doesn't necessarily stop them from thriving

16:06

academically. But when you get to

16:08

the firm, it can become a

16:10

liability if that's all you've had, because

16:13

at the firm, you

16:15

really have to form relationships with

16:17

people who are different, people

16:20

who are not in the same racial

16:22

group. And if you've been

16:24

separate from members of those other groups,

16:26

that can become a liability. And

16:29

so one person I interviewed who ended up being

16:31

an investment banker explained that

16:33

when he was in college, he

16:35

kind of gravitated toward his schools,

16:39

what we refer to as the black community, and

16:43

had a really good experience in school. But

16:46

when he got to Wall Street, he

16:48

realized that he was kind of

16:50

behind some of his black colleagues

16:52

who had different social backgrounds, because

16:55

he found it that much harder to fit

16:57

in with the white associates and vice presidents

16:59

at his job. And

17:01

so it's something we don't think about

17:03

in terms of its impact on professional

17:05

careers enough, but that

17:08

is the possible downside of

17:10

that kind of racial separateness. This

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shopify.com/ system. In

17:43

chapter three, you talk

17:45

about the social alienation, and

17:49

how that impacts people. What

17:51

happens in the law firm? Sure,

17:54

so it's subtle and it's

17:57

easy to miss, but one of the reasons why One

18:00

of the things that I found

18:02

is that the social alienation is

18:04

something that accumulates over time. It

18:08

feeds into people's frustrations and sense

18:11

of not belonging. And

18:13

especially if they encounter other types

18:15

of problems or challenges, it

18:18

can really make it that much more

18:20

likely that they'll leave the firm and

18:22

decide that it's not for them. So

18:27

one example that I discuss in the book is

18:30

that some

18:32

law firms will have firm-wide

18:35

happy hours, or

18:37

you might have groups of attorneys

18:39

who are very sociable and who

18:41

hang out with each other after

18:43

work. And if you're a member

18:45

of that kind of inner

18:48

circle, you get access to

18:50

useful information and relationships

18:52

that can end up steering opportunities your

18:54

way, et cetera. And

18:57

so these types of events often

19:00

happen in predominantly

19:05

white social spaces. So

19:08

one person mentioned that their group goes

19:10

to dive bars. Another

19:13

group mentioned that... Sorry, another

19:15

person mentioned that his group

19:17

had a bunch of golfers. And

19:20

so when you

19:22

have a group of people who

19:24

have that kind of cultural commonality

19:27

and a preference for something that

19:29

differs from your own, what happens

19:31

is they end up bonding and connecting

19:34

over that interest of

19:36

theirs while you end up

19:38

feeling alienated. Because you're saying, all of

19:40

these people are into golf. I don't

19:42

know anything about golf. I didn't grow

19:44

up playing golf, so I can't even

19:46

contribute to the conversation about golf, let

19:49

alone join you all on a

19:51

golfing outing over the weekend where

19:53

you drink beer and bond with

19:55

each other. And

19:58

there are plenty of stories like that. Another

20:00

one involved, there was a partner

20:02

at a law firm who would take his group out

20:04

to these hockey games. He was a

20:07

really big hockey fan, and statistically

20:09

there are very, very few black hockey

20:11

fans. And so the

20:13

black associates in that partner's group

20:16

kind of felt like they were

20:19

being, that they didn't really belong. They

20:21

didn't enjoy it. So

20:23

most of them didn't even show up. And

20:25

the one who did show up explained that

20:28

he had to kind of pretend that he

20:30

liked hockey or pretend that he knew more

20:32

about it just to fit in. And

20:34

so these are little subtle challenges

20:37

that can really affect people psychologically by making

20:39

them feel like they just don't fit in.

20:42

And yeah,

20:45

so those are just some of the many examples that I

20:47

discussed in the chapter. Now,

20:49

let's go back and have

20:51

you tell the audience about

20:54

your study sample and

20:56

who did you interview? I

21:00

interviewed, in

21:03

total, probably 150

21:05

or so black

21:07

professionals and other

21:09

black people who worked in sort

21:12

of high-level, high-status jobs. But

21:14

for the book, I ended up narrowing it down to

21:16

a sample of 110 black

21:19

professionals who had worked at

21:21

some of the nation's largest and most

21:24

elite law firms, investment

21:27

banks, and management consultant

21:29

firms. Excuse

21:32

me. And so the

21:36

sample was gathered through a technique

21:38

that we refer to in the

21:40

social sciences as respondent-driven sampling, also

21:43

known as snowball sampling. And

21:46

the way that works, you find

21:50

some people who are

21:52

either Members of the

21:54

population that you would like to interview

21:57

or who you believe know people who

21:59

are. In that population and

22:01

you reach out to them

22:03

and ask them to either

22:06

interview with you or to.

22:08

Forward a description of your study to

22:10

other people who might be willing to

22:13

speak with you. And so I reached

22:15

out to at the very the beginning

22:17

of the city I reached out to.

22:20

Want. To say maybe twelve or

22:22

fifteen. Ah, Contacts that

22:24

I had developed over the years. Who.

22:27

Were working in different industries.

22:29

I. Tried to find a diverse group is possible.

22:31

so these are people who went to different

22:33

colleges. Are in school are

22:36

business schools. They. We're working in

22:38

different parts of the country as I

22:40

didn't want to just pick people who

22:42

are knew each other we're best friends.

22:45

Some of them agree to interview with

22:48

me, others it's for that. Ford did

22:50

my ah description of my study to

22:52

other people and so when other people

22:54

got the email they would contact me

22:56

and say I would love to speak.

22:59

And I really emphasize that I wasn't

23:01

just looking for anyone with a particular

23:03

type of experience or perspective. Really went

23:06

to get as diverse as simple as

23:08

possible. And. Ah,

23:10

to does that number of it erases of that?

23:13

I ended up reaching well over one hundred people.

23:16

And. The interviews themselves

23:18

were as I mentioned, life

23:20

history style interviews. Where.

23:22

We really started with discussing

23:24

their childhood experiences and everything

23:27

from. Ah, The type of. Place.

23:29

They were a grew up in went to

23:32

school in an ah. How they

23:34

ended up choosing their careers? That they chose

23:36

whether they had any. Kind. Of race

23:38

will challenge is when they were growing

23:40

up or with the composition of their

23:42

friendship. Circles. Were and when

23:44

they were children are when they

23:46

in college and it really helped

23:48

to gather. Just that very

23:51

rich set of data about a

23:53

pretty diverse group of people. Now

23:56

I thought it was interesting. Most of the

23:58

people he interviewed. That cultural

24:01

differences. Would.

24:03

Have to define here

24:05

Yes. So. Of.

24:09

Lot a lot of people that I interviewed.

24:12

Dragoon with a similar

24:14

set of challenges where.

24:17

They felt that being

24:19

black. Was. A disadvantage

24:21

at their phones. Ah,

24:24

But added difficult

24:26

time explaining exactly how.

24:29

And so would it would instead of

24:31

the what I had seen in the

24:33

books and articles that read previously where.

24:36

People. Are focusing on pretty

24:38

blatant incidents involving and and

24:41

discrimination. Was. Mostly about

24:43

people not feeling fully included.

24:46

And so people felt like. There

24:49

were groups of colleagues of

24:51

there's. Who. Would

24:53

bond with one another. Over

24:56

my guess said these these

24:59

shared. Cultural interests,

25:02

And. Here culture is everything

25:04

from. Your favorite

25:06

Tv shows to. Ah,

25:09

The typo nightlife venue that you

25:12

prefer to spend your free time

25:14

socializing and to your teeth, and

25:16

museums and the fine arts saw

25:18

that comes into to the category

25:21

of culture here. And.

25:23

I. Was is a common theme that I

25:26

started to notice that when people described

25:28

as being. Isolated.

25:30

Within their work group. Ah,

25:32

They often refer to these

25:35

cultural differences. so they've talked

25:37

about how. Their. Colleagues

25:39

all like golf and they didn't

25:41

or even. There some

25:44

of their colleagues would bond

25:46

over Seinfeld and friends. Are

25:49

two very popular Tv shows with

25:51

white audiences that want that popular

25:54

with black audiences in the nineties

25:56

and. A. Things of that nature.

25:59

And. so There was a pretty broad

26:02

set of different types of

26:04

cultural traits that people mentioned

26:06

over the course of these

26:09

interviews. And it wasn't something

26:11

that I expected to encounter when I started

26:13

off with this project. So this was something

26:15

I learned as a result of the

26:17

kind of interview format, just

26:20

letting people talk about their experiences and

26:22

asking them follow-up questions. That's

26:24

how I came to realize that these

26:27

differences, whether you want to

26:29

call them cultural differences, or social differences, were

26:32

really playing a huge role here in how

26:35

people were able to, I

26:37

guess, become fully included in

26:39

their firms or not. And

26:42

in chapter four, you answer

26:44

the questions, why some

26:47

Black professionals thrive? What

26:50

did you find out here? Give us a story. Well,

26:54

the short answer is obviously it's complicated.

26:58

There are any number of reasons why

27:00

one person might thrive and another might not.

27:05

First and foremost, I mentioned in the

27:07

chapter, there are some people who are

27:09

just extremely talented. And

27:12

that's not to say that

27:14

being talented is sufficient, but it's

27:16

a necessary condition if you really want

27:18

to have a great experience in these

27:20

firms, because they're highly competitive. Every

27:23

year they hire way

27:25

more talented and impressive

27:27

young professionals than they can ever hope

27:29

to promote. So it's

27:31

competitive by design, and you really have to be able

27:34

to stand out in that way. And

27:36

in addition to that, luck

27:39

is also important. So I

27:41

know it doesn't sound very social scientific to talk

27:43

about luck, but luck

27:45

in terms of random chance can

27:48

play a big role. It can really make or

27:50

break someone's career. If you get

27:52

staffed on a case with the right partner

27:54

and working for the right client at the

27:57

right time, that can send your career one

27:59

direction. where if you took that same

28:01

attorney and you put her on

28:03

the wrong case with the wrong partner, it

28:07

could really damage her career severely.

28:09

So that's also important, but what I really

28:12

focus on in the book are

28:15

a couple of other components of success

28:18

here. And a big one

28:20

that came up in interview after interview

28:23

was having these

28:25

relationships with senior

28:27

colleagues, typically white

28:29

male colleagues, but not always, who

28:33

had power and influence within their

28:35

firms. That's something that

28:37

really determined what kind of career

28:39

somebody would have here. And

28:42

so that also

28:44

obviously talent and luck play into

28:47

who develops those relationships. But

28:50

another thing that plays a role there is

28:53

the additional social comfort

28:56

that some of the people who have the

28:58

most high quality interracial

29:00

experiences beforehand brought with them.

29:03

So in other words, when you get when you

29:06

start your career at a law firm and you're

29:08

a 25 year old black

29:11

associate, you realize

29:14

that you it's in your best

29:16

interest to develop these relationships with

29:18

these 55 year

29:20

old white male partners who have

29:23

a lot of power and influence. Some

29:26

people recognizing that will go

29:28

out of their way to try to make

29:31

small talk with those partners to kind of

29:33

constantly ask them for opportunities to work with

29:35

them or to help them in some way

29:38

where other people are going

29:40

to be a lot more reluctant and nervous about

29:42

doing that. So they would say, I

29:44

don't know, this partner might look at me

29:46

crazy if I talk

29:49

to him out the blue as if I know him.

29:52

But for some of these other people, it's

29:54

just that natural comfort where they're able doesn't

29:57

always work. But when it does work, it

29:59

really. pays off. And so

30:02

those are some of the things that I

30:04

learned about who succeeds. And

30:07

to frame it a bit differently, another

30:09

big takeaway from that is that

30:11

individual professionals,

30:15

individual senior professionals can

30:17

really have the power to shape someone's

30:19

career and to enhance

30:21

the diversity of their firms. So

30:24

if you're a senior white male

30:26

professional or any other senior professional,

30:29

and you decide that you're going to take

30:31

it upon yourself to really mentor some

30:35

black junior colleagues and

30:37

to help advance them in their careers, you

30:40

can have a really big impact on their

30:42

careers and by extension

30:44

on the firm itself. So

30:47

those are some of the many things

30:49

that I learned about who succeeds and

30:51

why. And in conclusion of your book,

30:54

you answer the question, what can

30:56

black people do? Yes.

31:00

And that's probably the trickiest, ended

31:04

up devoting not too many pages to that, but that

31:06

was probably the trickiest part of the book to write

31:09

for me because it's

31:12

important to make clear that the

31:16

fact that there are some things that black,

31:19

some black people might be able to do

31:21

to optimize their chances of

31:23

success, doesn't mean that those

31:25

who fail to do that are to

31:27

blame for their lack of success. Not

31:30

everyone is able to do these things. People

31:32

are definitely have different opportunities

31:34

and resources. But

31:37

some of it goes to really

31:40

extending yourself and

31:43

trying very hard to

31:45

develop those types of

31:47

relationships with your peers

31:50

at work, and especially

31:52

with more senior colleagues who

31:54

can become mentors and sponsors.

31:57

And I Think a lot of people,

31:59

including. My interview he for a

32:01

minute this candidly. Just

32:03

don't fully appreciate one The

32:06

importance of that. When.

32:08

They begin their careers. And.

32:10

To just how much?

32:12

Ah, Ability. They

32:14

have to possibly do their own

32:16

efforts and initiative is kind of

32:18

make that happen. And

32:21

so. One. Of the things

32:23

that I mention there is that. Ah,

32:26

again, this is if somebody decides that

32:28

they really want to increase their chances

32:30

of thriving if these from the nice

32:32

predominately white work setting. Of

32:34

one of the things they can do if they

32:36

so choose. Is. To take

32:39

it upon themselves to figure out. What?

32:41

Is it these white colleagues of mine are

32:43

interested in. And how do become

32:46

proficient enough in that? To. Leverage

32:48

that for my own professional

32:50

success. And so

32:52

there's some people I interviewed who mention

32:54

that they when they realize that the

32:57

people in their office were. Or.

32:59

Into golf they started to learn

33:01

about Goff Ah When they realize

33:03

that these people were into drinking

33:05

they started to learn more about

33:07

i guess going out and different

33:09

types of alcohol. so whatever it

33:11

is. There. Are ways

33:13

where. If you

33:15

can identify. People

33:18

you'd like to develop relationships with.

33:20

And and you can identify the kind of

33:23

cultural common ground you might be able to

33:25

develop with them. Then.

33:27

You can proceed strategically and do that

33:29

if you so choose. and I say

33:31

if you so choose because of frankly

33:33

I think it's a bit unfair. So.

33:36

This is an extra burden. That.

33:38

Black professionals who who don't share

33:41

that common ground coming into their

33:43

farms. Have to overcome.

33:45

Certain. They have to carry this this

33:47

extra burden. Of. Forging

33:50

these connections and this common ground because

33:52

they're the ones who need it. So.

33:54

They're the ones who have to

33:57

find a people from other racial

33:59

groups who. Are gonna be willing to

34:01

advance their careers? So. Ah,

34:03

the probably the main thing that black

34:05

professionals can do and in many instances

34:07

eyes easier said than done. For

34:11

overall message you want the reader

34:13

to meet with more three finish

34:16

your book. Oh.

34:18

I forgot about few different overall

34:21

messages for different audiences, but speaking

34:23

most broadly I would say. I.

34:26

Hope that people leave the book. Really?

34:28

Appreciating. Just. How

34:30

impact for. Some. Of these

34:33

subtle. Everyday challenges can

34:35

be. Ah, In the Curve

34:37

for the careers of black professionals

34:40

and other types of workers as

34:42

well. And. It

34:44

doesn't take some angry

34:46

big it or. Even.

34:49

Someone who's is blatantly discriminating against

34:51

people because of implicit bias. Or

34:54

to derail somebody his career. Career.

34:57

Can be derailed. I

34:59

just as surely. Through.

35:01

The subtle cumulative challenges

35:04

associated with racial discomfort.

35:07

And. Ah, People

35:09

don't have to in this

35:11

isn't predestined, people don't have

35:13

to accept is passively. Other

35:15

thing that firms. Senior.

35:17

Professionals and it's a mix and black

35:19

professionals can do to try to fight

35:21

back against this. Well

35:24

a coating up. Enough of your time.

35:26

To New cars. The next project you'll be

35:29

working out. Well, I'm

35:31

currently juggling a few projects

35:33

so our described them very

35:35

briefly. One is looking at.

35:37

Ah, Yes, how the recent

35:40

end of affirmative action is going

35:42

to affect diversity in the legal

35:44

profession, especially with respect to black

35:47

attorneys. And. Another,

35:50

a completely unrelated project. Is

35:53

looking at. Ah,

35:56

What to do about the

35:58

epidemic of gun violence? and

36:00

ah, the homicide crisis that

36:02

has is too many black

36:05

communities for far too long.

36:08

Were we look forward to

36:11

both of those projects? And

36:13

Congratulations. On the book the book

36:15

is the black ceiling. How re

36:17

still matters. In the Elite

36:20

Workplace by Kevin Wilson.

36:22

Thank you again. Thank.

36:24

You for thank you for having me.