0:00

You know that diamond jewelry you have that you're not

0:02

wearing, whether it's from a divorce or inheritance

0:04

or just something sitting in your jewelry box? Well,

0:06

there's a new easy way to get money for that jewelry.

0:09

It's called worthy. Worthing is a platform

0:11

that can get you up to two or three times as

0:13

much money as a pawnshop or local jeweler

0:15

will offer. With zero wrist, Worthing

0:17

puts your jewelry in front of worldwide network

0:19

of professional buyers. People who will bid against

0:22

each other for your diamond, worthy makes it

0:24

easy. They include free shipping, free insurance

0:26

coverage, as well as free professional grading

0:28

and evaluation, and you're in control

0:30

from start to finish. If your price isn't

0:32

met, you don't have to set and you get the jewelry

0:35

back, no charge. And now for limited

0:37

time, you'll get an extra one hundred dollars when

0:39

your jewelry sells for over fifteen hundred.

0:41

And all you have to do is register at

0:43

worthy dot com slash life. That's

0:45

worthy dot com slash life.

0:47

Get more for your diamond jewelry. At worthy

0:49

dot com slash life worthy,

0:52

a better way to cash in on that hidden

0:54

asset in your jewelry box.

0:57

Get

0:59

Ready Ohio Fan Jewel, America's

1:01

number one sportsbook is coming to

1:03

the Buckeye State. And to kick things off, you

1:05

can get started with one hundred dollars

1:07

in free bets as an early sign up

1:09

bonus. Plus, when you sign up today with

1:12

promo code Wandery FD, you'll

1:14

be all set for when FanDuel goes live

1:16

in Ohio. Then you can bet on all your

1:18

favorite teams in all your favorite sports

1:20

with one hundred dollars in free bets.

1:22

Just download FanDuel's top rated sportsbook

1:25

app. It's safe, secure, and super

1:27

easy to use. Ohio, this is

1:29

your chance to get in on the action. Join

1:31

today with promo code Wandery FD.

1:34

Make every moment more with

1:36

FanDuel, official sports book partner

1:38

of the NFL. Twenty one plus in present in

1:40

Ohio. Bonus issued a non withdrawal free

1:42

bets that expires seven days after FanDuel

1:45

accepts its first real money sports wager in

1:47

Ohio. One one twenty three. unique user

1:49

identity verification required. Offer

1:51

ends on the go live date. Restrictions apply.

1:53

See terms at sportsbook dot fanjuel dot

1:55

com. Gambling problem called one eight hundred

1:57

gambler.

1:58

I'm not being

1:59

told her. I had

2:01

nothing to do with her. I don't

2:03

think that you intended not to hurt

2:04

him.

2:08

That's Melissa Kalysinski inside

2:11

a police interrogation room.

2:14

The year was two thousand nine.

2:16

Melissa was a twenty two year old

2:18

day care worker accused of

2:20

hurting an eighteen month old baby.

2:23

I understand. All I need to

2:25

do is tell us the truth and we're done.

2:27

The interrogation went on for

2:29

nine hours. She told police

2:32

over and over again. She didn't

2:33

hurt the baby, but

2:36

they didn't believe her. like you

2:38

intentionally killed this boy. I didn't

2:40

do anything. I didn't tell

2:42

you guys the truth. Just

2:43

give me a break this kid's

2:45

debt. We're not going anywhere

2:48

until we get the facts here. But

2:50

finally, Melissa Gaibann and

2:52

old detectives what they believed

2:55

she had done, that she

2:56

had frustrated with the baby

2:58

and killed him. you

3:01

you get mad at him and you throw him on the floor.

3:04

You throw him on the floor? No. It's

3:06

really hard. Really hard. Yeah.

3:09

Two years after that interrogation,

3:11

Melissa Kaoizynski was convicted

3:14

of that

3:14

baby's murder. And today,

3:17

eleven years later, She is

3:19

still in a woman's prison outside of

3:21

Peoria, Illinois.

3:22

But here's the part of the

3:24

case that's so troubling.

3:26

Since that conviction, the medical

3:28

evidence

3:29

used against our trial

3:30

has been called into question

3:32

and discredit it. The medical

3:35

examiner who did the autopsy has

3:37

admitted he made a mistake, and

3:39

yet Melissa Kalozynski remains

3:42

in prison and could spend the rest

3:44

of her life in prison. Why?

3:47

Because

3:48

of what happened inside that

3:50

small interview room.

3:53

I'm Erin Moriarty,

3:54

and this is my

3:56

life of crime.

3:59

Hi.

3:59

I'm Erin Moriarty with a message

4:02

from our sponsor, Lomi.

4:04

Do

4:04

you ever feel guilty about how much

4:06

food waste you take out to the garbage? If

4:09

the answer is yes, you

4:11

may wanna try Lomi.

4:13

Lomi is an electronic composter.

4:16

that could make composting both

4:18

easy and

4:18

odor free.

4:20

With just a touch of a button, Lomi

4:22

can quietly turn your rotting

4:24

food waste in scraps into

4:26

nutrient rich dirt in under

4:29

four hours. Maybe that's

4:31

what my drooping house plants need.

4:33

and

4:34

think about the money you could save

4:36

on trash bags.

4:37

Find out if Lomi is the perfect match

4:40

for you. It's a noise free,

4:42

mess free solution to keeping

4:44

your food waste out of landfills.

4:47

By purchasing a Lomi, you may

4:49

be able to make a positive environmental

4:51

impact or just make

4:53

cleaning up after dinner that much

4:55

easier. so you could get back to

4:57

watching your favorite crime show.

5:00

Just head to lomi dot com

5:02

slash CBS and use the

5:04

promo code, CBS, to

5:06

get fifty dollars off your lo

5:08

me. That's fifty dollars off

5:10

when you head to L0MI

5:13

dot com slash CBS

5:16

and use promo code CBS

5:18

at checkout. Food waste

5:20

is gross. Lomi is

5:22

your solution. With the holidays

5:24

just around the corner, Lomi will

5:26

make the perfect gift for someone on

5:28

your shopping list.

5:31

Melissa Kalozynski is

5:34

now thirty six years old.

5:36

She remains in prison mostly because

5:38

of that two thousand and nine police interrogation.

5:42

Her confession was a powerful

5:44

piece of evidence. No one just

5:46

submits to a murder, do they?

5:49

Melissa had to have done something.

5:51

Why else would she say

5:53

what she did?

5:55

But

5:55

whatever one thinks about Melissa's

5:58

innocence or guilt, the

5:59

videotapes of her interrogate

6:02

demonstrate many of the

6:04

themes associated with coolest

6:06

and fashions to

6:08

explain further is doctor Saul

6:10

Hasson.

6:11

He's a distinguished professor of psychology

6:14

at the John Jay

6:15

College of Criminal Justice

6:16

in Manhattan. and has

6:18

written a book about Coors Conventions

6:20

called Dute, why

6:23

innocent people confess, and

6:25

why we believe they're confession.

6:33

So, doctor Kassen, I

6:35

love the name of this book because

6:37

the first question I had is,

6:39

why duped? Who is being duped

6:41

here?

6:41

Well, that is an outstanding first

6:43

question because there are two

6:45

subtitles to the book. The

6:48

first person being duped is

6:50

the suspect who

6:51

has led to believe that it's in their better interest to

6:53

confess than to continue denial. The

6:56

second people

6:57

being duped are you and me and

6:59

the judge and the jury and the courts

7:01

because

7:01

false confessions

7:04

are not just admissions

7:06

of guilt. They

7:08

are statements that

7:09

wreak of credibility. And,

7:12

you know, there are two myths here. The first myth

7:14

is I'd never confessed to a crime. I

7:16

didn't commit. My

7:17

answer to that is you might. The

7:19

second myth is, I'd

7:22

know a false confession if I saw one.

7:24

No, you wouldn't.

7:25

Well, I So this the reason

7:28

why I wanted to start with Melissa's confession

7:30

is because you've seen it, I've

7:33

seen it. It went on for At

7:36

first, she's denying it, but the whole thing

7:38

goes on for nine hours. And

7:40

it is very credible. I have

7:42

to tell you it is because she didn't just say

7:44

I did it. She shows

7:46

the police that she did it.

7:49

So I I mean, I struggled

7:51

when I saw it and I worked with the producer

7:53

who's still sometimes

7:55

wonders she had to have done something.

7:57

So explain to me what was

7:59

going on,

7:59

Emlis, if if she didn't

8:02

kill this baby. What is going on through

8:04

her mind? You know,

8:05

it's interesting because almost

8:08

simultaneous to the moment in which she

8:10

confesses. and

8:12

agrees to give a demonstration with

8:14

a reenactment with a doll. She's asking

8:16

questions about when she's gonna get home. She

8:19

has no idea that

8:21

she's about to cooperate and give a

8:23

confession and that she'll never see home

8:25

again.

8:26

Her expectation is

8:29

what interrogators try to

8:31

get your expectation to be, that

8:32

it is in your better interest to

8:35

confess, that to continue denial.

8:37

But

8:37

so is what's going on?

8:39

Does she actually start to think

8:41

she did

8:42

do it? Or is she just thinking, The

8:44

only way I'm gonna get out of this room

8:46

is I'm just gonna say I did it. I

8:48

will show them what they want, and then I'll fix

8:50

it when I get out. I

8:51

cannot crawl into her head and answer that

8:54

question, but I can tell you that it happens

8:56

both ways. In

8:57

general, the vast majority

8:59

of false confessions happen

9:01

because a person who is innocent

9:03

knows their innocence, but

9:05

they've been there so long They've tried

9:07

denial. Denial doesn't work their

9:09

way out. They're exhausted. They're

9:11

fatigued. They wanna check-in with their

9:13

parents or or whatever the needs may

9:15

be. and they're led to

9:17

believe that maybe what you did is

9:19

not a big deal, which is to say,

9:21

I understand you were in a stressful

9:23

circumstance. and people behave that way in

9:25

stressful circumstances. And it

9:27

wasn't really your fault. For

9:29

a

9:30

variety of reasons, an innocent person

9:32

then might say, Okay.

9:35

IIII did it, but they know they

9:37

didn't do it. And in

9:39

fact, when you read interrogation manuals,

9:41

they will tell you, The

9:43

goal, the overarching goal,

9:45

is to increase the anxiety associated

9:47

with denial and

9:48

decrease the anxiety associated

9:50

with confession. Oh

9:51

my god. So

9:53

that raises a question I have.

9:56

Are there certain people who are

9:58

more likely? to falsely confess

10:00

or more likely to be coerced because I have to

10:02

be honest. I do

10:04

not think anyone could get me to confess

10:06

this thing I didn't do.

10:08

I mean,

10:10

would you agree that there are some people like

10:12

me who could never be

10:14

forced to confess that I didn't do?

10:16

I don't

10:17

know if there's anybody who's invulnerable. I I

10:19

think everybody has a breaking point,

10:21

but I agree with you. Some

10:23

people are vulnerable and some people

10:25

are not.

10:25

It doesn't mean that

10:30

it

10:30

doesn't mean it can happen to anyone.

10:32

And I say that because Imagine

10:36

imagine you're

10:37

at a workplace and imagine

10:39

that money is stolen. and

10:41

they have a loss prevention department, and the

10:43

loss prevention department is empowered

10:45

to try and recover the loss from

10:47

theft or shoplifting or whatnot.

10:50

and they identify an employee who they

10:52

think might have had the opportunity and

10:54

maybe the time schedule to have

10:56

stolen whatever it was.

10:57

And they bring that employee in and

11:01

they indicate to that employee, well,

11:03

look, we can we can call the police

11:05

in on this. We can do it that way. or

11:07

you can sign a confession and pay

11:09

back the money. And we we can

11:11

keep it in house. In

11:15

cases like that, there have been known instances

11:17

where the employee, fully innocent,

11:19

never stole the money,

11:20

decided it was in their better interest than it

11:23

would be easier on life to sign the

11:25

confession, pay back

11:25

the money, then

11:27

allow this to go to the

11:29

police. It it doesn't that person know

11:31

the they will probably get

11:33

fired. Depending on how that

11:35

interrogation was presented, maybe

11:37

not. I worked on a case just

11:39

like that. and the

11:41

individual was led to believe that

11:44

sign the confession. You

11:46

can indicate that your

11:48

Sorry for having taken the money, and

11:50

then you can sign a promissory note in

11:53

which you agree to have us retrieve that money

11:55

from future paychecks. But what does

11:57

future paychecks mean? You're gonna

11:58

be working the arbitration.

11:59

certainly suggest that they didn't promise it,

12:02

they said, but it certainly implied

12:04

That

12:04

was one of the more interesting parts of

12:07

your book because, you know, I

12:09

work in this area. I deal with

12:11

case is that involve course confessions,

12:13

but never thought about course

12:15

confessions in the workplace. And you're

12:17

saying that's not unusual.

12:18

Yeah. You know, I wish I had an

12:20

answer about how often that happens? I

12:22

don't. I took a case once because

12:24

it was fascinating to me

12:26

and I got an inside look at the loss

12:28

prevention business. And I

12:30

saw that in fact, the

12:32

interrogators in that situation

12:34

are trained in very much the same

12:36

techniques as homicide investigators. Of

12:39

course, you don't have your Miranda rights. And

12:41

in this one case that I worked

12:43

on, the interrogator boasted

12:46

of having a ninety eight percent confession

12:48

rate. Well, that's

12:51

not something to brag about. It means you're

12:53

getting some false confessions in

12:55

there unless you are a perfect

12:57

human lie detector and you know

12:59

that everybody you're bringing in is the

13:01

criminal, that's not the

13:03

ninety eight percent is not good news.

13:05

In that case,

13:08

the individual who did the

13:10

interrogation said, was free to leave.

13:12

He was free to leave whenever he wanted.

13:14

Oh,

13:14

hang on a second. You

13:15

pulled them aside in the middle of a

13:17

workday. You're his

13:18

supervisor. He's free to get

13:20

up and leave the workplace and keep his

13:23

job. I don't think so.

13:25

So it's an

13:26

inherently coercive situation.

13:29

It's it's a situation in which

13:31

the person being interrogated is being interrogated

13:33

by somebody who is superior within the

13:35

hierarchy. And I will note

13:37

too. And again, III

13:39

can't say this as an empirical matter. I wish I

13:41

could. I have no

13:42

sense as to what the prevalence rate of

13:45

this problem is. I know

13:47

that on this

13:47

case I worked on several years ago,

13:50

It

13:50

was a case involving a

13:53

worker for AutoZone in San

13:55

Diego. I know that when

13:57

his case settled, which is to

13:59

say the jury

13:59

awarded him seven million or so

14:02

dollars, my

14:04

phone rang off the hook. from

14:06

others who say the same thing happened to them.

14:09

Now I understand how somebody

14:11

would sign

14:13

something thinking, okay, if I keep my job assign

14:15

this and pay it back and

14:17

move on. But when

14:19

it is, we'll say, a a Melissa

14:22

Kalysinski, who's

14:24

sitting in a police interrogation

14:26

room.

14:26

and And

14:28

so you describe three

14:30

different types of people

14:32

who confess. Every time

14:34

I do a story, like, you even

14:36

mentioned the Charles

14:38

Lambert case

14:40

where the his child

14:42

was murdered. And you said

14:44

people out of the blue confessed. So

14:47

there are just professional confessors.

14:49

I'm

14:51

not sure I'd go that far, but it there

14:53

is there is this phenomenon known as

14:55

the voluntary false confession. In

14:58

high profile cases, you see it sometimes

15:00

like the Charles Lindbergh's infant

15:02

son was kidnapped, and

15:04

two hundred people volunteered confessions. So

15:06

they just these individuals just want

15:09

attention. It looks like

15:10

I can't interpret again what they were doing.

15:12

There are a lot of reasons for people to

15:14

volunteer false confessions. One

15:16

is they have this need for

15:18

attention. Another might be and the most

15:20

common that we know of in cases like

15:22

this are cases in

15:24

which they're protecting somebody

15:26

else. It might be a parent protecting a

15:28

child or a child protecting a parent.

15:30

So there

15:31

are various reasons and a voluntary

15:33

false confession honestly doesn't

15:35

tend to present a problem for

15:37

this criminal justice system,

15:40

in part because when somebody

15:42

volunteers a confession to a crime, they're

15:44

not even a suspect. Police

15:46

inherently are suspicious and

15:48

they look for proof. Well, proof of

15:51

guilty knowledge. What do you know about the

15:53

crime that enables

15:53

you to give me this confession? So what

15:55

are the real ones? Where are the

15:57

problems? The real ones are the compliant

15:59

false confessions. Those are the case where the

16:02

people who are innocent and know their

16:04

innocent buckle. They

16:05

buckle because it's too stressful

16:07

to keep going, and because promises

16:10

are made or implied, threats are made

16:12

or implied, and they've come to believe it's in their

16:15

better interest to confess?

16:16

You did. Didn't you

16:18

do tests in a lab that you

16:21

can you briefly describe how you could get

16:23

people to confess to something that they

16:25

didn't do in a lab

16:27

environment?

16:27

Yeah. You know, it's for ethics

16:30

reasons. It's hard to imagine how you might

16:32

do this. And so

16:34

the first time we did this, it was at Williams

16:36

College in in nineteen ninety

16:38

six. And I I

16:40

have a student by the name of Lee Keecholl

16:42

and We did the first ever

16:44

published study on false confessions. What we

16:46

did is we brought people into the lab,

16:48

said,

16:49

to students at a time, we're gonna have one

16:51

of you read a set of letters and the

16:53

other is gonna type them. We're interested in

16:55

people's typing ability, speed,

16:57

reaction time, that

16:59

was our comfort story. And

17:01

then by AAAA luck

17:03

of the draw coin flip,

17:05

the experimenter said to one

17:07

subject, you will be the typer

17:10

and to the other, you will be the reader, and then we'll

17:12

flip rolls later. and the

17:14

experimenter then turns to the typer and

17:16

says, oh, by the way, whatever you

17:18

do, don't hit the alt key. We

17:20

have a

17:20

quirk in the program and

17:22

the the the computer will crash. We'll lose everything

17:24

on the hard drive. So whatever you do, stay away

17:26

from the alt key. They start

17:28

the process and one

17:31

student is reading, the other student is

17:33

typing. The reader is not

17:35

another subject. The reader is working for

17:37

us. And about midway

17:39

through, couple of minutes

17:41

into the process, the

17:43

experimenter explodes. Says, oh my

17:45

god, what just happened? grabs the

17:48

keyboard from the subject, starts

17:50

manipulating the keyboard and says,

17:52

did you hit the alt key? And the

17:54

subject says no. I didn't I didn't touch

17:56

it. They're mindful. And

17:58

he turns again, does

18:00

some manipulation, says again, did you hit

18:02

the old key? Are you sure? everybody says, no, never

18:04

touched it. In

18:05

half of the cases,

18:07

that's it. And he and any and

18:09

he makes one more effort to get them

18:11

to say they that that they

18:13

that they touched it. And the

18:16

other half of the case is he turns to that

18:18

confederate who was reading and said, did you

18:20

see anything? Now, Either

18:22

she

18:22

says, no, I didn't, or

18:25

she says, yes, I saw him hit the alt

18:28

key. At

18:28

which point the blood drains from

18:30

the subject's face? Sometimes they come

18:33

right out and apologize. Many

18:35

of

18:35

them, three times more

18:37

sign a confession, after being

18:39

presented with that false evidence than if they

18:42

weren't presented with the false evidence.

18:45

And when all is said and done, many of them

18:47

actually came to believe that they hit

18:49

the all which we knew they didn't hit. So what's going on

18:51

there? They had no

18:53

choice but to believe this confederate

18:55

who presented false evidence.

18:59

And the other thing that's going on

19:01

is they're now stressed and they want

19:03

out. The third type of

19:05

false confession, which is are

19:07

people where they're vulnerable

19:09

or they're rendered vulnerable. There was

19:12

a case in New York that I

19:14

found just jarring. And and and and

19:16

I can tell the story quickly because

19:18

it was a a guy by the name of multi thompson

19:20

from Denmark. And and this says

19:22

a lot, I think, about

19:24

cultural differences.

19:26

Twenty two years old comes

19:29

from a family of

19:31

teachers, educators, came to work at a

19:33

preschool near the United Nations.

19:35

And at some point,

19:38

another assistant at that school

19:40

made an allegation to the staff that he was

19:42

sexually abusing some of

19:45

the

19:45

children. Well,

19:47

the person who made allegations had apparently made

19:49

several of those before was a troublemaker,

19:52

was not credible. They

19:54

did the responsible thing

19:56

and put him under some surveillance,

19:58

asked questions of of of

20:00

children, of staff. It was an unlikely

20:03

scenario because it was a huge setting

20:05

with a lot of people around at all times.

20:08

In any event,

20:09

they they they absolved him

20:11

and they fired her. Professor Kassen

20:13

told me that he believed the school officials had

20:15

done the responsible thing when

20:18

there was no evidence that Thompson and the

20:20

young teaching assistant had

20:22

abused any children. They fired the

20:25

accuser who had made other

20:27

unfounded accusations, but

20:29

it

20:29

didn't end there. because

20:31

of what the accuser did

20:34

next. She then went

20:35

to NYPD. They

20:37

then went to his house and picked them up at

20:39

six in the morning and brought them in for After

20:43

five, six hours of questioning, they

20:45

let him know that they have him

20:47

on surveillance camera. making

20:51

these making these, you know,

20:53

forcing the kids to touch him or touch him. Which is

20:55

a lie. Which is a lie.

20:57

But he

20:58

doesn't know that police in this country are allowed to lie. He's

21:01

from Denmark. They're not

21:01

allowed to lie there. They're not allowed to lie in

21:03

most places. And

21:05

so he had no choice

21:08

but to believe I must have

21:10

done this. They get him to

21:12

sign a confession and then they take him put him

21:14

on camera in front of the assistant district

21:16

attorney to take a statement.

21:18

And his opening of this

21:20

so called confession was

21:22

it has come to my attention that I've

21:24

done a bad thing. He didn't

21:28

know if he did or he didn't, but if they had him

21:30

on surveillance footage, he must have, and

21:32

he simply wasn't aware.

21:36

That's a form of an internalized

21:38

false confession. They led him to believe he

21:40

had done this thing. I

21:41

mean, he actually thought he did

21:43

at that point? I don't know

21:44

what he thought, but he was now confused

21:47

enough to infer. Now it's interesting

21:49

when you read these internalized false

21:51

confessions where they come to believe it. They use

21:53

a different language. They're not using

21:55

the language of memory. They're asking, oh, yeah,

21:57

I remember. I did this, that, and

21:59

the other thing. they're saying, it

22:02

looks like I did it.

22:03

I guess I did it.

22:06

And

22:06

and and then that language

22:10

transitions into okay.

22:12

The conversation goes to well, let's

22:14

let's let's imagine how it is.

22:16

You did this. Think about it. Think hard. and

22:18

they close their eyes sometimes, and they imagine, and

22:20

they come up with a confession

22:22

filled with the facts that were given

22:24

to them through the process of interrogation.

22:28

shaving the cops. From the cops. So it

22:30

kind of matches the the

22:32

actual known crime. All

22:34

charges against multi Thompson

22:36

were eventually dropped.

22:38

We'll take a quick break right now,

22:40

and then look at another case that

22:42

professor Casim worked on. It's the

22:44

case of Mardy tank club who says he was

22:47

pressured by police into

22:48

believing he had killed his

22:51

parents.

22:53

I'm Jordan Clever, Daily Show

22:56

contributor, Trump Rally Pass holder, and as

22:58

of today, my most daring title

23:00

yet, podcast host. This is

23:02

Jordan Clapper fingers the conspiracy,

23:04

and all new limited series podcast

23:06

from The Daily Show. We're going way

23:08

down the rabbit hole. Like, did you know that

23:10

Osama Bin Laden is a AI named

23:12

Tim? Yeah. We're doing a whole episode on that

23:14

one. JfK Junior coming back from the

23:16

dead. That's an episode. The deep state,

23:18

that too. Listen to Jordan

23:20

Klepper fingers the conspiracy wherever

23:22

you get your podcasts.

23:23

Marty

23:27

Tanclip was seventeen years old when

23:29

he woke up one morning in nineteen eighty

23:32

eight and discovered that his

23:34

parents had been murdered in their Epic

23:36

County, New York home. He

23:38

called 911 Just

23:40

remember the woman screaming yelling.

23:42

Come on. Some calm down comment on

23:44

I'm sending you an ambulance she gave me

23:46

some instructions. What can I take a

23:48

clean bath, wrap wherever he's touching blood

23:51

from? And did you do? I did that.

23:53

Shortly afterwards, investigators arrived

23:55

and almost immediately zeroed

23:57

in on Marty as the main

23:59

suspect. After all, He was

24:02

the only one left alive. Lead

24:05

investigator detective James McCready.

24:07

He was sitting in his comms, gone

24:09

to be with his hands clasp just

24:11

like this. What would you have

24:12

expected him to be doing? I think

24:13

he wouldn't be crying. I think he would

24:16

have been shaken been

24:18

very upset. But Marty,

24:20

oblivious to McCreedy's suspicions,

24:23

Marty was helping the cops.

24:25

What impression did you get from the way he was talking

24:27

to you? That he was trying to help me and

24:29

he wanted my help. As the conversation

24:32

developed, I could see that But

24:35

he was just

24:36

he's long he was long. And how did

24:38

you know that? It's not so much the way

24:40

what is said. It's the way in which

24:42

it's set. Marty did finally confess

24:45

or what detective McCready

24:47

called a confession. This is

24:49

how Marty once described to me

24:52

what happened. It

24:52

was the constant barrage, Marty, we

24:55

know you did it. Everything we okay just

24:57

tell us you did it. We know you did

24:59

it. And it was the on and on

25:01

and on question. I over and

25:03

over. The critical point in the

25:05

interrogation came when McCready

25:07

left the room to take

25:08

a fake phone call from Marty's

25:11

father. who was

25:11

actually in a coma at the time. If all

25:14

that he pumped him full of

25:16

adrenaline and he came out of his coma and he said

25:18

that you didn't want you

25:20

lied to? Yes. I lied to. Yes. Yeah.

25:21

And that's alright to

25:24

do. The United

25:24

States Supreme Court says it is.

25:27

But what are you thinking? that this can't

25:28

be happening, that this is not

25:31

real. Marty Tanklib

25:33

told police over and over again

25:35

that he had nothing to

25:37

do with the attack on his parents. But as you

25:39

just heard, Suffolk

25:40

County New York detective James

25:43

McCready lied to

25:45

him. And eventually, it made the

25:47

seventeen year old who had never

25:49

dealt with police before,

25:51

questioned his own memory. Professor

25:53

Casson describes how it happened.

25:56

At that

25:57

point, Mardy Caves, that

25:59

phone call,

25:59

that

25:59

staged phone call, that

26:02

was preceded by otherwise.

26:04

At

26:04

one point, the detectives came in and

26:07

said Marty, your mother

26:09

fought with her assailant and there was hair in her

26:12

grasp. And we did the analysis that hair

26:14

is yours. And that just

26:15

confused the whole lot of them because

26:18

Marni didn't approach his mother. He saw that she had

26:20

died and he

26:20

was now looking for his father.

26:23

The detective then because

26:25

they had a problem. These two very bloody crime scenes

26:27

in the house, and Marty

26:29

was clean. So they had to believe that

26:31

he had showered

26:32

before calling nine eleven. Marty,

26:35

it

26:35

looks like you used the shower this morning.

26:37

He kept saying I did not shower. I called

26:40

as soon as I discovered my

26:42

parents. And the detective

26:44

said, well, we did a humidity test

26:46

on your shower and it shows it was used this

26:48

morning. Again, another

26:49

lie. Line number two.

26:52

and then the detective McCready leaves the

26:54

room, leaves Marty sitting in the room with his

26:56

partner. Returns and says

26:58

Marty, I have good news and bad

27:00

news. The good

27:00

news is we spoke

27:02

to the hospital and your father has regained

27:05

consciousness. He's out of his coma. The

27:07

bad news is he said you

27:09

did it.

27:12

Marty says my

27:13

father is the person I trust most.

27:15

If he says I did it,

27:17

I must have done it. And again,

27:20

there's this language of inference, not Oh, yeah.

27:22

Now I remember it's I

27:24

must

27:24

have done it. It's an inference he's

27:27

making because his father doesn't

27:29

lie. So You have a kitty

27:31

seventeen. He's in the state of God knows what

27:33

shock. He's lied to not

27:35

once, not twice, but three times. And the

27:37

third lie sites the person he trusts the

27:39

most in life. He

27:41

caved momentarily he caved. I don't know

27:44

for how long, but I

27:46

do

27:46

know that he started he started

27:49

to get confused and started to wonder

27:51

whether or not he did it. This

27:53

case and the case that we had talked

27:55

about earlier, Melissa Kalozynski.

27:58

these quote

27:59

unquote

27:59

confessions are obtained very early

28:02

in the investigation. And in

28:04

both cases, there

28:06

was a lot of evidence. In Melissa's

28:09

case, there

28:09

the evidence, the medical evidence was wrong.

28:12

In

28:12

Marty's case, There was a

28:14

lot of evidence pointing to Marty's

28:18

dad's partner, but

28:21

what then happens when that new evidence

28:23

comes out. You would think common sense

28:25

would say when the new evidence they'd

28:27

say, okay. Maybe we need to look

28:29

another another direction. But

28:31

once you have that confession, that doesn't

28:33

happen, doesn't it? That

28:33

is the million dollar question

28:36

that for years next made. When a

28:38

confession made early in a case is

28:40

contradicted by the rest

28:41

of the evidence, it means

28:44

that that confession could

28:46

be false. but Professor

28:47

Kassen says few investigators are

28:50

willing to admit that the

28:52

confession should be thrown out.

28:54

And I've seen

28:56

a number of wrong click convictions where the

28:58

where the erroneous evidence

29:00

was an eyewitness identification mistake.

29:03

You don't see this in those cases.

29:05

If if new evidence say DNA

29:07

comes forward and and demonstrates the innocence

29:09

of a person who was identified by

29:12

a witness, everybody shrugs their

29:14

shoulders and says, oh, well, you know,

29:16

witnesses make mistakes. People are imperfect.

29:18

Sorry.

29:19

But when the Evidence

29:21

that precedes, say, DNA

29:24

is a

29:25

confession.

29:26

innocent people don't just confess.

29:30

What

29:30

did you do?

29:31

And now, the

29:33

police, the prosecutors, are

29:35

on the defense.

29:36

Police for taking the confession, prosecutors

29:39

for being part of the confession taking

29:42

process. Maybe they come in late and do

29:44

a a videotape taking of

29:46

the statement. not vetting the statement. Whatever

29:48

it

29:48

is, everybody gets remarkably

29:51

defensive. And it's just a

29:53

different feel. And so you look at

29:55

these cases, and you find

29:57

cases, for example, where let's

29:59

take the

29:59

Central Park five cases as a as a

30:02

good example. most people think they've been

30:04

DNA exonerated? No. That's

30:06

not what happened.

30:07

in In April of

30:09

nineteen eighty nine, the jogger was

30:12

raped. in a in a brutal way.

30:15

And these kids were dragged

30:17

in for interviewing and

30:19

interrogation and they did

30:21

in fact

30:21

confess. Did all

30:23

five confess? Four of

30:25

them gate

30:25

case statements on camera

30:28

the fifth allegedly did confess according to

30:30

the detectives. And so there

30:32

were their confessions. What

30:35

people don't

30:35

realize is now

30:38

that's April

30:38

of nineteen eighty nine. They're not tried

30:40

till later that year and into the

30:43

next year. In the

30:45

summer of nineteen eighty nine, you

30:47

know, that she was raped and it

30:49

was semen samples taken

30:51

from vaginal swab, from clothing, from

30:53

her socks, there was semen everywhere.

30:55

The results came back that

30:56

summer from the crime lab. All

30:58

of the samples traced to a

31:01

single person, not to more

31:03

than one. and all of

31:05

that, one person, conclusively

31:07

excluded all of

31:09

them.

31:09

I had no idea.

31:10

Most people don't. Most people

31:13

don't realize that they were convicted in

31:15

nineteen eighty nine and nineteen ninety.

31:17

Because of their confessions, even

31:19

though the jury knew both juries,

31:21

two cases, two trials, the

31:23

juries knew that the DNA excluded them.

31:26

That's

31:26

how powerful confession evidences. So

31:28

what you're saying right now is and and now I wanna

31:30

move to really just kind of summing

31:32

up of how do you end false confession.

31:35

So it sounds like number one,

31:37

Right

31:38

now, police are allowed to

31:40

lie. Yes. That should

31:42

change. That's gotta stop. That's

31:44

gotta stop. most Americans don't know that

31:47

police are allowed to lie. And

31:49

moreover, they're not just allowed to lie to

31:51

adults, to allow a lot of kids.

31:52

And we're raised to trust boys.

31:54

I mean, we are. So Yes. I

31:56

mean, like

31:57

Marty is saying my dad would never lie.

31:59

That's what most

31:59

people think a a cop would never lie

32:02

to me. especially

32:03

about evidence.

32:04

There are false confession cases

32:07

I can point to and describe involving

32:10

twelve year old, thirteen year old, fourteen

32:12

year olds who were lied to about the

32:14

evidence and almost have no choice but

32:16

to believe the lie.

32:17

And then, of course, the other solution which

32:20

I think is changing is

32:22

the idea

32:22

of recording all interrogations.

32:25

Recording

32:26

is necessary for two things.

32:28

Judges are supposed to determine if a confession

32:30

is voluntary, so is the jury supposed to take

32:32

that into account? Is voluntary or is this

32:35

course of Well, how do they know that

32:37

if they don't watch the process? Second,

32:39

when

32:40

a when

32:41

a final concessions taken filled with details

32:43

that only a perpetrator could have known. I

32:45

put that in quotes, only a perpetrator could

32:47

have known. How is the jury gonna know

32:49

where those facts came from?

32:51

Did suspect really originate

32:53

those facts? Did the suspect really know that or

32:55

did they come through the process? So I

32:58

guess then the last

33:00

best way to prevent coerced confessions

33:03

is just talking to police.

33:05

You actually even

33:07

mention this. That sometimes innocent

33:10

people think Oh, I'll talk because

33:12

I have nothing to hide. You

33:14

should not talk. The

33:16

realization that I had is is not

33:18

just that a lot of people don't comprehend

33:20

their rights, understand their rights. The

33:22

law has made it more difficult to invoke

33:24

your right. But

33:27

When you ask

33:27

innocent people, might I always ask two

33:30

questions. So why did you confess?

33:32

And

33:32

why did you get a lawyer? And

33:35

the lawyer part of that question always gets

33:37

me the same answer. I didn't need a

33:39

lawyer. I didn't do anything wrong.

33:42

innocent

33:42

people don't use their

33:44

Miranda rights. Part of it is they

33:46

worry about the optics of silence. It

33:48

doesn't look good. But part of

33:50

it is they

33:51

truly believe in in a world in

33:53

which their innocence will

33:55

become transparent, that there's a

33:57

certain degree of justice. And if we just

34:00

talk they'll see I didn't do

34:02

this.

34:03

Big

34:04

big mistake mistake. You

34:06

don't talk? Yes.

34:08

whether you

34:09

get a lawyer or not, you do not talk to the police.

34:11

You need to, by the way, according to

34:13

the courts, now you need to talk in

34:15

order to invoke your rights. Alright.

34:18

So at least say, I need a lawyer. Yes. And

34:20

you have to say it clearly and emphatically.

34:22

You can't say for example, I think

34:24

I need a lawyer. You need

34:26

say I need a lawyer. I want

34:29

a lawyer. There are a lot of cases

34:30

in this book. I can't do

34:34

unjust to professor Cassen's

34:36

book in one podcast.

34:38

It's filled

34:39

with fascinating cases

34:41

of innocent people who confessed the things

34:43

they didn't do and the reason why they

34:45

did. The book

34:48

is duped.

34:50

why innocent people confess and why

34:52

we believe their confessions. And

34:54

the reason to read

34:56

the book is

34:58

the reason why Professor Solkassen wrote it,

35:01

which is if you do serve

35:03

as a juror and you

35:05

have this information, you might

35:08

be able to save an innocent

35:10

person from a wrongful

35:12

conviction. I'm

35:14

Eren Moriarty. and

35:16

this is my life of

35:18

crime.

35:20

This podcast

35:20

series is developed by

35:22

forty eight hours in

35:24

partnership with CBS News Radio. Qudy

35:26

Tigard is forty eight hours

35:27

executive producer. Steve Dorsey

35:30

is CBS News Radio Executive

35:34

producer. Production and editing for this third season

35:36

of my life of crime by

35:40

Allen Tang.

35:42

Craig

35:42

Swagler is vice president and general manager

35:44

of CBS News Radio.

35:47

And finally, A

35:49

thank you to all

35:50

of you, our listeners. We

35:52

owe it all to you, the

35:54

millions of forty eight hours

35:57

fans. Don't forget

35:57

to join me online. I'm

35:59

at EF

36:00

Moriarty on Twitter and

36:02

we're at forty eight hours

36:06

on Twitter Facebook,

36:06

and Instagram. Talk

36:08

to you

36:09

soon. In March twenty twenty,

36:10

a family on the northern Tran

36:13

reservation in Langer, Montana got

36:16

shocking news about their loved one,

36:18

Christie wouldn't die. My

36:19

daughter had came and notified

36:21

me

36:21

that Christie was run over, and I said,

36:23

is she okay? And she's like, know she

36:25

died. I was like, what? Missing

36:28

justice from CBS News takes you

36:30

inside what really happened that night. And

36:32

the Fed a role investigation that followed, but send a missing justice

36:34

from CBS

36:34

News starting November twenty second

36:36

wherever you get your podcast.

36:40

The lost

36:41

interview with Jeffrey Dahmer's father, it was said

36:43

that he had even impaled

36:45

a dog's head He

36:47

told me that he'd decapitated and put on a

36:50

stake. Tell me about the

36:52

locked wooden box. If I would have

36:54

opened that box and found what

36:56

was in there, I I think I

36:58

would have lost it. But we now know the box

37:00

contained a human head.

37:02

A doctor Phil three day special.

37:04

That's today on an all new

37:06

doctor Phil