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You're listening to an Airwave

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Media Podcast. Hello,

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all. Eric Rivenas with the Most

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Notorious podcast here. Each

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a safe tomorrow. So

0:43

there's this wonderful moment, 1976 convention,

0:46

Madison Square Garden in

0:48

a hotel nearby the Statler

0:50

Hilton where everybody is. There's

0:53

some Carter AIDS in the elevator. Now Jimmy Carter's

0:55

got the nomination. This is known in the Democratic

0:57

convention in New York City in 1976. Everybody

1:01

knows. But what they don't know is who he's going to pick for the

1:03

running mate. The Carter campaign is

1:05

doing a great job of keeping it as

1:07

an ironclad secret. How do they do that?

1:10

Because Carter himself doesn't tell anyone. But

1:12

a few AIDS close to Carter do know

1:14

the day before the announcement's going to be

1:18

made. And they're discussing it. As the AIDS

1:20

are looking around, they, you know, they're not stupid.

1:22

They look around to see if anybody's in the

1:24

elevator and all they see is a 13 year

1:26

old kid. Ah,

1:30

that's fine. No idea

1:32

that Gilbert Giles, who is soon going

1:34

to be called Gilbert Scoop Giles, is

1:37

a child reporter for the Children's Express,

1:39

a then unknown newspaper that's about to

1:41

be known because that paper is going

1:44

to scoop the news that Walter Mondale

1:46

is Jimmy Carter's running mate. They

1:48

get ahead of the New York Times, the Washington Post, everybody.

1:53

We're going to talk about that. We're going to

1:56

talk about the Patty Hearst kidnapping case. We're going

1:58

to talk about the Potsdam meeting. after

2:00

World War II. So

2:10

hello everyone, thanks for your support for

2:12

My History Can Beat Up Your Politics.

2:14

So we did the three-part Carter series,

2:17

and three-part Carter series was supposed to

2:19

be just a one-part, because back in

2:21

2009 I had done a podcast called

2:24

Carter 1977. And

2:27

it was pretty basic as my cast were then. Back

2:30

in 2009, probably going to 2011, I

2:33

didn't have too many podcasts that were more than

2:35

25 or 30 minutes. That's

2:38

changed now, so I didn't get into

2:40

detail about a lot of stuff that went on in

2:42

the Carter presidency. Not

2:48

too many scraps were left on the floor

2:50

then, because I did Carter 1977 and then

2:52

Carter The

2:58

last was kind of tough, it was kind of

3:00

tough to do one. I know from

3:02

the beginning, once I did 1977, I wanted to do the other

3:04

two. There

3:06

was just too much going on in the Carter

3:08

presidency. Probably be a lot

3:11

of people wanting to do tributes and updates, and

3:13

I wanted to get mine in. I

3:15

think there's a lot to say, I think he's a

3:17

misunderstood president. That does

3:20

not mean I believe that he's secretly

3:22

the greatest president ever to hold the

3:24

whole office, and it's totally

3:26

just a media misrepresenting him. But

3:29

I'll tell you, certainly in

3:31

the Carter-Reagan comparison, there's

3:33

a different Reagan presented in those comparisons

3:36

than the one that most people saw

3:38

through those eight years, and the lived

3:40

experience of Americans. Like, yeah, we might

3:42

have reelected him in 1984 because the

3:44

economy was good, but I almost

3:46

impeached him. Just

3:50

as there were snide comments about Jimmy Carter,

3:52

and a reference like the songs that were

3:54

sung at the time, the same stuff about

3:56

Reagan, the time he got to the late

3:58

80s. I

4:00

think time, you know, blurs the

4:02

lines and Carter suffered a bit.

4:04

We remember the gas lines We remember

4:07

the hostages those easy things to remember

4:09

but totally forget that for instance I

4:11

mean gosh if hundreds of

4:14

Marines had been killed on Carter's watch

4:16

I can only imagine what would be

4:18

remembered where with Reagan the

4:20

Lebanon incident is not greatly remembered Now

4:23

I'm not gonna push on that issue because I'm

4:25

not one that necessarily Blames that was a hard

4:27

situation to read and what Reagan was trying to

4:30

do is get a peaceful solution Democrats

4:33

led by tip O'Neill at the time

4:35

would not criticize Reagan for it Random

4:44

thing in John Alter's book his very

4:46

best Where it was

4:49

like Gilbert Gaia scooped that Walter Mondale

4:51

was the running mate in 1976 No

4:55

one I Audience

5:23

Adults don't think children understand

5:25

but we do Gilbert giles said

5:27

No one It

5:34

turns out that there is this magazine called

5:36

Children's Express That

5:38

had reporters and nobody really

5:40

took it seriously So when 13 year

5:43

old Gilbert dials he's sharing in

5:45

all of the staffers

5:47

for a Democratic presidential candidate Jimmy

5:50

Carter and They're

5:52

discussing Jimmy Carter's picked Walter Mondale. They

5:54

do the usual look around So when

5:57

they see a 13 year old kid,

5:59

they don't care and they keep

6:01

discussing it. As

6:03

a result Children's Express magazine announces

6:05

the pick a full day before

6:07

any other newspaper. It scoops all

6:09

the major outlets, of course the

6:12

media's mad, and then Children's Express

6:14

is on the map. They're going

6:16

to continue to cover politics for

6:18

another couple decades and they're going

6:20

to have intensive coverage of

6:23

the 80-84 and particularly the 88 political

6:27

conventions. If anything they got more

6:29

political after their scoop in 1976.

6:33

A little more on the story though. Children's

6:35

Express was founded the year before by

6:37

Wall Street attorney Robert Clampett.

6:40

It was originally publishing just

6:42

kind of light stories but

6:45

after Gilbert Gills who was

6:47

actually an illustrator, he's a

6:49

cartoonist, an illustrator for

6:51

the magazine after he got that

6:53

information about Walter Bondale and they

6:55

got put on the map. They

6:57

started to get into it like

6:59

hey we can have children report

7:01

on more serious political topics. Over

7:03

the next two decades Children's Express

7:05

expanded from New York to establish

7:08

bureaus in Salem Massachusetts, Washington DC,

7:10

Oakland California, New Jersey, Harlem and

7:12

New York, Market Michigan,

7:14

Springfield Ohio and Indianapolis.

7:17

Tokyo Bureau was founded in the late 1990s. They

7:20

also started

7:23

CP Newswire that

7:25

would send out articles on news

7:28

important to children to all kinds

7:30

of publications regularly in the

7:32

New York Daily News. In 1988 they get

7:35

a question at Dan Quayle. Suki Chiong

7:37

who is a 11 year

7:39

old reporter asks vice presidential candidate

7:42

Dan Quayle, the girl should

7:44

be forced to carry a baby to term

7:46

if she was sexually molested by her father.

7:48

Quayle answers yes and so they

7:50

could kind of be in places where other reporters

7:52

might get too much pushback to be. They

7:55

had regular journalism process. Everything's

7:57

transcribed and edited by teen and all

8:00

also adult editors, always

8:02

presented from a youth viewpoint. They

8:04

tried not to censor the children reporters as

8:08

much as they possibly could. They would

8:10

cover drug abuse, teen abortion, youth-oriented

8:12

legislation, divorce, the impact on kids, school

8:15

violence, and this is back in the

8:17

80s and 90s, interracial

8:19

dating. They were

8:21

admitted to the White

8:23

House to ask questions. They

8:26

covered every convention from

8:28

both the Democrats and the Republicans from 1976 to 2000.

8:33

In 1996, three staffers

8:35

toured Bosnia during the war

8:37

there, sending back reports from

8:39

a child's point of view published

8:42

nationally. 2001,

8:44

and there was a little downturn in the economy

8:46

after 9-11 and the dot-com bubble,

8:48

and that kind of did

8:50

end the paper, and the original owner

8:53

had died, and

8:57

that was about it. Became Y-Press

8:59

for a little while. The

9:01

UK Children's Express lasted till 2007.

9:05

It won Emmys, it won Pulitzer's,

9:07

it won Peabody Awards. One

9:10

of the topics that won an award was 1979's special

9:13

of Listen to Us, a

9:16

collection of roundtable interviews with children

9:18

on topics ranging from school to

9:20

sexual abuse. Dropping Out and Hanging

9:22

in 1989, an

9:25

exploration of school apathy and

9:27

dropouts in America. Voices

9:29

from the Future in 1993, where

9:32

kids would talk about violence and the impact

9:34

on their lives. But it

9:36

all stems from when Giles and

9:38

a bunch of other child reporters

9:41

wearing T-shirts went around

9:43

talking to Walter Cronkite, Dan

9:45

Rather, Bill Moyers, learning about

9:47

delegates, and explaining it to

9:49

their readers, explaining the selection

9:51

process. The convention's

9:53

only real question they know

9:56

is who's Jimmy Carter's gonna pick for

9:58

running mate. It's not known at that point. They

10:00

were able to get through the normal defenses

10:03

that Democratic Party had set up because this

10:05

was an ironclad secret I believe Gilbert Geil

10:07

has now focused more on his art quite

10:09

a big following on Instagram Not a hundred

10:12

percent sure that's him But I just wanted

10:14

a little nuggets that I found interesting you

10:16

reading like oh, there's kind of a story

10:18

there See

10:22

what else a book that

10:24

I am reading is meeting at Potsdam Charles

10:26

me and I got this at the

10:28

local library sale and I found it quite

10:31

interesting the book is from 1975 and What

10:35

it talks about is Potsdam the meeting that

10:37

no one talks about after World War two

10:39

because everyone talks about Yalta

10:41

as if that was the last

10:43

meeting between the Allies and Russia

10:46

and Stalin. It wasn't there

10:49

was a period of months

10:51

between Yalta which was in February 1945 and

10:55

Potsdam, which was a two-week meeting

10:57

not just like a quick meeting

10:59

with a two-week meeting between

11:02

the end of July and August 1945

11:06

so at this point Germany had surrendered

11:08

they have the meeting in Potsdam Which

11:10

is a suburb right outside of Berlin

11:12

that had not been bombed and had

11:14

nice houses for the delegation and a

11:16

great place to meet Potsdam

11:18

is in the Soviet zone of

11:20

Germany But it's close enough to

11:22

the American and British zones that

11:25

they can safely participate the meeting

11:27

officially is between Truman

11:29

FDR has passed away at

11:31

this point Churchill and Stalin

11:34

Churchill and Truman

11:37

Speak for the French essentially That's

11:41

the arrangement that they have China

11:43

is a significant group talked

11:45

about Given

11:47

information, but they're not at the meeting Poland

11:51

is brought into the meeting, but not

11:53

significantly When I and another

11:55

note is when I mentioned China, we're not talking about

11:58

communist China at this point. We're talking about The

12:01

Republic of China talking about Chiang Kai-shek,

12:03

the group that's eventually going to be in Taiwan.

12:05

This is the group that Americans are supporting at

12:07

this time. Stalin's supporting the Communists in China. One

12:09

of the things that he's going to agree to

12:12

at Potsdam is to give

12:14

up that support for the Communists. Find

12:16

out a fascinating book. You see that

12:18

even as leadership is changing among

12:21

the allies, FDR

12:23

has passed away, Truman's taking

12:25

his place. Churchill, during this

12:27

meeting, in the middle of the meeting,

12:29

the Brits have an election and Churchill

12:32

loses his prime ministership. He kind of

12:34

knows it's coming. Not

12:36

100% sure, but he knows it's a

12:38

possibility. So he brings Clement Attlee with

12:40

him. Clement Attlee was his deputy prime

12:42

minister in any case during the emergency

12:44

war government. He's the leader

12:47

of the Labour Party in Britain. Churchill

12:49

and he are personally get along, but

12:51

do not politically get along. Attlee is

12:53

a socialist. No man shall have cake

12:55

in Britain until everyone has bread. He

12:59

would use the next five years of

13:01

government to fulfill those promises. But

13:03

yeah, he's going to actually win that election. So in

13:06

the middle of Potsdam, Attlee becomes the leader and has

13:08

to finish up the meetings. Churchill leaves.

13:11

Truman's already taking over, but despite that

13:14

fact, Truman is a forceful

13:16

figure in these meetings. He

13:19

goes toe to toe with Stalin. He's

13:21

already seen that Stalin has not necessarily

13:24

lived up to all the Yalta commitments,

13:26

that there is a threat to democracy

13:28

in lands that have been taken by

13:30

the Soviet Union. We're

13:32

still not sure what to do with Germany. Germany

13:35

has industry. Germany has submarines.

13:38

Germany has some ammunition

13:40

and guns and tanks. Do

13:44

we destroy them? Do we destroy

13:46

the German naval fleet, which is in British hands

13:48

and is a British bargaining chip at this meeting?

13:52

Stalin wants 55% of everything the

13:54

Germans have because of the amount

13:56

of casualties that his nation suffered

13:58

and the amount of territory from

14:00

the Germans that he has conquered. There

14:02

are rough series of meetings. I mean,

14:04

the leaders are pleasant enough with each

14:07

other, but Truman isn't gonna kind of

14:09

cave on anything. And I

14:11

mean, they make a few mistakes. I can't get

14:13

into the whole meeting, but I just do think

14:15

that it's important to note this meeting because it

14:17

really puts Yalta into a context. In

14:19

some way, who cares about

14:21

Yalta when they're having this meeting

14:23

where they were free to bring

14:25

up issues and discuss

14:27

among the three powers. Part

14:30

of the problem that Truman's gonna have is

14:32

that Churchill and Truman don't always see eye

14:34

to eye with everything. For instance, Churchill is

14:36

very keen at this point on having a

14:38

strong Germany. It's discovered during this meeting that

14:40

Stalin knows that Churchill has 400,000 German troops,

14:46

400,000 in Norway, and they haven't been disarmed

14:49

yet. This is part of Churchill's plan. If

14:51

Russia tries anything funny, at least he's got

14:53

those Germans that could now, oddly enough, fight

14:55

for the British. Of course, through

14:58

this entire meeting, we are testing the

15:00

atomic bomb, and that's gonna be used

15:02

shortly thereafter. In

15:04

the beginning part of the meeting, Truman does

15:06

not tell Stalin that we have the bomb.

15:09

The end of the meeting, he tells Stalin,

15:11

we have this bomb. There are disputed accounts,

15:13

at least in this book, meeting at Potsdam,

15:15

over whether Stalin knew or not. It's most

15:17

likely Stalin knew something was being worked on.

15:20

If he knew the exact place we were

15:22

at with it, where we could

15:24

destroy a Japanese city, that probably wasn't clear.

15:27

We then, during the time of

15:29

this meeting, issue an ultimatum to

15:31

the Japanese. When

15:33

you're at Yalta, it's still

15:36

very important that FDR

15:38

gets the cooperation of Stalin, because FDR

15:40

feels strongly, and Americans feel strongly at

15:43

the time. We're gonna need Russian help

15:45

to beat the Japanese. We're

15:47

gonna need them to put pressure on the

15:49

East, to put pressure on Manchuria, and

15:51

to put pressure on the naval fleet from

15:54

the North, in order to get Japan to surrender.

15:56

We also need them to know that they have

15:58

no out. remained neutral

16:00

with Russia and there was always

16:02

this, well we'll keep fighting until

16:04

you know as long as we're

16:06

neutral with Russia. That's gonna

16:09

end after Yalta. Stalin lives up

16:11

to that promise. He does throw

16:13

out the minister. Russia will eventually

16:15

declare war in Japan, but

16:17

it's clear by Potsdam that

16:19

between the bomb and between all

16:21

the advances made by American troops

16:23

and American naval fleets and

16:26

their Chinese allies and the British

16:30

that Americans can handle Japan alone. The

16:32

Russian help will probably just add to

16:34

more complications and we'll have to split

16:36

up Japan. Stalin's gonna ask

16:39

for a chunk of whatever he's involved

16:41

in. So by the time of Potsdam

16:43

they don't need this Russian help that was

16:45

so needed in Yalta and affected all the

16:47

decisions in Yalta, they also know they have

16:49

the atomic bomb, which is we all know

16:51

not just a signal to the

16:53

Japanese, but a little bit of a signal to

16:56

Russia that hey, play ball, you may

16:58

have more troops, we've got this awesome weapon

17:00

that you don't have. All

17:02

Stalin says at the meeting is

17:06

very good. I hope you will use whatever

17:08

weaponry you have to enforce the surrender.

17:11

We believe that his research, he was aware

17:13

somebody was gonna make a bomb out of

17:15

atoms and that kind of thing. They

17:18

do send the ultimatum to the

17:20

Japanese before they let Russians know

17:22

they're doing it. When the Russians

17:24

find out initially Molotov, their foreign

17:26

minister asks for a delay and

17:29

the Americans say, I'm sorry it's too late

17:31

we already sent that out. Oh, you sent

17:33

that without letting us know. Oh

17:35

well we had to do it in this some

17:37

kind of excuse, but essentially that is what happened.

17:40

We did not, in the ultimatum to

17:42

the Japanese sent in August 1945, let

17:45

them know that we had a new and terrible weapon or anything

17:47

like that. You just, you

17:50

already know what we can do. We're already

17:52

bombing you, we're fire-bombing Tokyo. A lot

17:55

of Tokyo is ruined at this point. They

17:57

know what we're capable of. We don't yet.

18:00

allow them to keep their Emperor.

18:02

That's gonna happen later. And so while

18:04

this all occurs while this meeting is

18:06

going on shortly thereafter, we do

18:09

bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They

18:11

are both ports where shipments

18:13

are going out to feed

18:15

the Japanese Army and Navy.

18:17

There are steel plants, there

18:19

are important military production, there

18:21

are also civilians living

18:23

in all of these cities. Hiroshima

18:26

is going to be more damaging than

18:29

Nagasaki but nonetheless Nagasaki. They both are

18:31

devastating. Truman doesn't think about it that

18:33

much. According to meeting at

18:35

Adpotsdam and other sources, he says it was

18:37

not a difficult decision at all. We were

18:40

at war, this new weapons presented,

18:42

they don't appear like they're giving us signals,

18:44

like they're gonna fight to their Emperor for

18:46

the death. Why should we

18:48

not use it? So he didn't think about it

18:50

much and Truman gives the signal to

18:53

the generals to use it. So it's not

18:55

Truman saying, you know, send over the Nagasaki,

18:57

launch the bomb now. He

18:59

had already given that approval in June. It's

19:02

a military decision. Once it's

19:04

tested, the test is successful.

19:07

There's a funny situation during

19:09

the Potsdam meeting where the

19:12

guy that's translating the cable that

19:15

comes in, the code is, oh

19:18

my boy is nice and fat. It's

19:20

really looking good and

19:23

we're gonna bring him over from here to the

19:26

house in Long Island. It's

19:30

an encrypted message that says those words

19:33

and it's from Powerman to

19:35

Truman and his aides at Potsdam. It's

19:37

encrypted but it's also in code as

19:40

well. The little fat boy is the

19:42

atomic weapon and the

19:44

distance from DC to Harriman's

19:47

Long Island house is about 230 miles, which is the

19:49

range that the

19:52

explosion was felt. All

19:55

of that is sent over. It's such

19:57

good code that the guy who's translating

19:59

the encryption asks if they should

20:01

stop the meeting in Potsdam because

20:04

it looks like Harriman just had

20:06

a baby boy. He's told no.

20:08

A lot of this, you know, direct quotes from

20:10

the transcript of the meeting, people there,

20:12

there were several Aids present at all times,

20:15

a lot of differences between the British and

20:17

the Americans that Stalin tried to exploit. It

20:19

wasn't like Churchill and Truman were always on

20:21

the same page. Stalin, excellent

20:24

negotiator, persuasive person. I understand

20:26

that he's also a monster

20:29

that put people to death at this meeting.

20:31

You also see the side of him that

20:33

he's able to negotiate, he's able to give

20:35

in on certain points. A lot

20:37

of it, yeah, the points he gave in on,

20:39

they ended up reneging on, not everything. I mean,

20:42

the basic lines of things like you get Austria

20:44

and Italy and they're gonna be fine and out

20:46

of our zone, you know,

20:48

those were capped. I mean, so it's good

20:50

negotiator is all you can say. It picked

20:52

up on any points where he could run with

20:54

and ran with them. There's

20:56

amusing moments. Truman gets tired of

20:58

Churchill talking so much when

21:01

they have dinner and things like that.

21:03

So when Truman hosts a meeting at

21:05

the American residence, he has a piano

21:07

player playing like really loud music and

21:09

they're all forced to kind of

21:11

listen to the music and Stalin likes that

21:13

and Truman likes it. Churchill hates it. Then

21:17

he counters with his own band when he has

21:19

his next meeting. I highly recommended meeting

21:21

at Potsdam and I'll probably talk a bit more

21:23

about Potsdam, but this is where a lot of

21:26

the nuts and bolts of post-World

21:28

War II Europe

21:30

and the world really get decided

21:33

and they've already decided from other

21:35

meetings that they're gonna move

21:38

on with the United Nations. So that's

21:40

already, there's already a United Nations in

21:43

on paper anyway when the Potsdam meeting

21:45

occurs. Germany's already surrendered. You're

21:47

gonna talk about who would be war

21:50

criminals, who should be tried. Stalin wants

21:52

them to topple the Franco government. Truman

21:54

and Churchill have had enough of war.

21:56

They don't want to do that. They

21:59

also think maybe there again.

22:01

They don't want a Russian-friendly Spanish

22:03

government. Franco is not Russian-friendly. So

22:06

you see in Potsdam the biggest thing

22:08

that I could say is the Allies

22:10

start seeing Germany as a buffer and

22:12

acting that way. Churchill is informed by

22:14

Truman about the atomic bomb. They know

22:16

they have this and they get a

22:18

little, get their back up a bit. The

22:21

US and Britain after that knowledge is

22:23

known when the test is successful. But

22:25

a lot of the carve-out, the

22:28

divisions of Berlin and

22:31

Germany are just codified at

22:34

this Potsdam meeting. So I think there's an over

22:37

focus on Yalta and FDR's

22:39

aging and things like that. Any

22:42

missing parts could be and were addressed in

22:44

Potsdam, maybe not always in the way that

22:47

turned out well for history. But

22:49

for instance, you take the UN Security Council.

22:51

Why does the UN Security Council have the

22:54

members that it has? The

22:56

US, Russia and

22:59

Britain are definitely going to be on

23:01

the UN Security Council because they are

23:03

signatories to Germany's surrender. And there's still

23:06

an element of this UN that job

23:08

numero uno is making sure we don't

23:10

have war with Germany again that they

23:13

don't get re-militized. So you're

23:15

gonna have the three powers that signed

23:17

that agreement on the Security Council. Then

23:20

France and China are agreed on by

23:22

those three. And that's how you get

23:24

it. And the, you know, Meeting

23:26

of Potsdam good book. The

23:40

Mercury sank in the mouth of the dying

23:42

day. What

23:45

instruments we have agreed. The

23:48

day of his death was a dark

23:50

cold day. but

24:00

I think from modern times, man, I mean,

24:02

a lot in scores,

24:05

you know, but anyway. He

24:08

disappeared in the dead of winter. The

24:10

brooks were frozen. The

24:13

airports almost deserted. And

24:16

Snow disfigured the public statues.

24:19

The mercury sank in the mouth of the

24:21

dying day. What instruments

24:23

we have of the

24:25

day of his death was a dark, cold

24:28

day. Far

24:30

from his illness, the wolves ran

24:33

on through evergreen forests.

24:36

Peasant River was untempted by the

24:39

fashionable quays. But

24:41

for him, it was his last afternoon as

24:43

himself. An

24:49

afternoon of nurses and rumors. The

24:52

provinces of his body revolted. The

24:55

squares of his mind were empty. Silence

24:58

invaded the suburbs. Current

25:00

of his feeling failed. He

25:03

became his admirers. Now

25:06

he is scattered among a hundred cities, and

25:09

wholly given over to unfamiliar

25:11

affections, to find his

25:13

happiness in another kind of wood, and

25:16

to be punished under a foreign code

25:18

of conscience. The words of

25:20

a dead man are modified in

25:22

the guts of a living. But

25:27

in the important and noise of morrow, when the brokers are roaring

25:29

like beasts on the floor of the bourse, and the poor have

25:32

the sufferings to which they are fairly accustomed,

25:34

and each in the cell

25:39

of himself is almost convinced of

25:41

his freedom, few thousand will think

25:43

of this day as one thinks of a

25:45

day when one did something slightly unusual. What

25:52

instruments we have agree. The

25:54

day of his death was a dark, cold day.

26:00

Mad Ireland hurts you into poetry.

26:03

Now Ireland has her madness and

26:05

her weather still. Poetry

26:08

makes nothing happen. It survives

26:10

in the valley of its own making,

26:13

where executives would never want to

26:15

tamper. In the desert

26:17

of the heart let the healing

26:19

fountain start. In the

26:21

prison of his days teach

26:23

the free man how to praise.

26:29

I think that my

26:31

first reaction without reading any analysis

26:34

about this poem by

26:36

the excellent W.H. Auden, I think Guy has,

26:40

you can read in there that he's

26:42

talking much more than just about Yeats,

26:44

who he is obviously honoring. There's no

26:46

sarcasm here. But at the same time,

26:48

he can't just have it be a memorial. It's

26:51

also a question about what is poetry

26:53

about? What does it really do? In

26:56

other words, he's pointing his

26:58

poem just as much on himself and all

27:00

the other poets. What does it all mean?

27:03

Ireland's still going to have its madness. We're

27:05

all going to be silly, even if

27:07

we write and read poetry. There's

27:10

a lot of the world goes on. Yeats

27:13

is this great man, but for many people it's

27:15

just going to be a day where something, oh,

27:17

that's that day something unusual will happen. And

27:20

there's this great line where Auden

27:22

says, when he dies, Yeats

27:25

became his admirers. And

27:27

that's a great way of saying now

27:29

people are going to say his poems

27:31

mean whatever they mean. And

27:34

it's you think about it in the

27:36

context of TV shows or any novels

27:38

that we read, poetry that we might

27:40

read, songs, particularly where the person who

27:43

made it is now gone.

27:46

What does it mean? And

27:48

so when Jim Morrison passes away or

27:50

disappears or whatever happened with him, it's

27:53

now up to readers and

27:55

critics and pundits and everyone,

27:57

ourselves, to interpret this poetry.

28:00

to us. He can't speak

28:02

anymore. Yeats, the poet, becomes

28:04

whatever his readers and fans decided

28:06

he was. Yeats

28:09

became his admirers. If

28:12

a dead man is modified in the guts of

28:14

the living, that's odd, it

28:16

means we're constantly adapting what people

28:18

wrote to fit our

28:21

times and our feelings. Now

28:23

you could read into this the fact that

28:25

it's not gushing with memoriam. I think there's

28:27

enough of it in the poem. You know,

28:30

it's already accepted that Yeats is so great

28:33

that it's he-teak, but it's

28:35

only a great poet like

28:37

Auden would take

28:39

the opportunity to say, yeah, I know a big

28:41

event has happened, but I'm gonna

28:44

use this time to make a bigger point

28:46

because I need my poetry to be more

28:48

about just somebody's passing. And

28:51

so he makes the he uses it to make that

28:53

point. Again, if you're saying

28:55

there's the line where it says

28:59

all of the instruments can agree it was

29:01

cold and it was dark, Auden

29:04

is kind of depriving poetry of its

29:06

force and meaning, right? Because he's saying

29:08

it's a dark cold day and he

29:10

gets away with saying it. That's where

29:13

I think this is fine in terms

29:15

of a memoriam because anyone reading it

29:17

there's enough there that you celebrated how

29:19

great this person was and you're constantly

29:21

saying it's a dark cold day like

29:23

people would feel. But

29:25

Auden has to slip in there something that might

29:27

not be noticed on a surface level reading, just

29:29

all the instruments can agree. So in other words

29:31

what he's saying when I say it's a cold

29:34

and a dark day, I mean the day that

29:37

Yeats happened to die

29:39

on happened to be cold and it

29:41

happened to be dark and our instruments

29:44

can tell us. He's saying the physical

29:46

description is here.

29:50

If you're reading emotions

29:52

into it, all I'm telling you

29:54

is that the instruments agree it was

29:56

a cold and dark day. And in that line,

29:58

it's a clever way

30:00

of saying, see, poetry isn't

30:02

that important, because all it

30:04

can do is describe what

30:07

the instruments, you know, instruments can describe just

30:09

as well what a cold and dark day

30:11

is. Get you thinking

30:13

a little, but in the end with that

30:16

line of, you know, teach us how to praise, teach

30:19

a free man how to praise, he

30:22

is giving back poetry some of

30:24

its urgency, as long as

30:26

it's done in the right way, and the

30:28

right way is the more modern way that

30:30

Auden's doing, and not just simple rhymes and

30:33

simple slogans, but in actually

30:36

telling something about the world and

30:38

inspiring people. So this isn't totally

30:41

just a kind of takedown on

30:43

poetry, because Auden, that is Auden's

30:45

profession after all, but it's

30:47

how do you do it, what should it

30:49

be for, what should it be its role,

30:51

and he uses the death of a great

30:53

poet to do that. I'm

30:56

Jane Pirlas, long-time foreign correspondent and

30:58

former Beijing bureau chief for the

31:00

New York Times. I've

31:02

been a foreign correspondent in lots of

31:05

places, Somalia, Indonesia,

31:07

Pakistan, but nowhere as

31:09

important to the world as

31:12

China. I mean, China is not

31:14

dropping anti-democratic paratroopers into Montana, but

31:16

of course we did see things

31:18

like the weather balloon slash spy

31:20

balloon riveting the whole country for

31:22

a week. This is

31:24

Face Off, an eight-part series in

31:27

which we'll take you behind the

31:29

scenes to key moments in the

31:31

tumultuous US-China relationship. We'll speak with

31:34

a diplomat, a spy, a tech

31:36

reporter, a US Admiral, even Yo-Yo

31:38

Ma. Plus, my pal

31:40

and noted China historian, Rana

31:43

Mitter, joins the conversation. We'll

31:45

look at what's driving the two nations apart,

31:48

and explore whether anything can help

31:50

bring them back together. Face

31:52

Off launches April 9th. like

32:00

how the world is tipping

32:03

towards authoritarianism, all while somehow

32:05

simultaneously freezing, flooding, and on

32:07

fire. It's a

32:09

lot to take in. But

32:11

what if instead of being on the brink

32:13

of disaster we're actually on the cusp of

32:16

a better world? If

32:19

I've got your attention then I highly

32:22

recommend tuning to a podcast that offers

32:24

a weekly dose of optimistic ideas from

32:26

smart people. What could

32:28

go right? Is the

32:30

acclaimed news podcast from The Progress

32:33

Network. Zachary Carabell and

32:35

Emma Varvalukas dive into the biggest

32:38

news and most pressing topics of

32:40

our time. From climate change

32:42

to politics and make the case for

32:45

brighter future. Season 5

32:47

features fascinating guests like democracy

32:49

scholar Yeh-Shamook on the hidden

32:51

perils of identity politics. And

32:55

NPR anchor Steve Innskeep about

32:57

the importance of talking to people who differ

32:59

from you and what

33:02

Abe Lincoln learned from those conversations

33:04

that helped him unify the country.

33:07

It's time to ditch the doom-scrolling polarization

33:09

and start focusing on some of the

33:12

things going right. So

33:14

check out what could go right wherever

33:16

you listen to podcasts. You

33:19

know I'm attempting to re- I did that

33:21

interview with Paul Cartlidge on democracy,

33:23

attempting to reread parts of

33:25

that. Just noting how

33:28

important a form of

33:30

democracy was to ancient Greece, not

33:32

just Athens, but to most

33:34

of the city-states. You have places like

33:37

Sparta and its League of

33:40

Cities where it was more

33:42

of an oligarchy really. But

33:44

the form of democracy that everyone participated in

33:46

was a kind of jury that

33:48

could both try cases and

33:51

also review a question of exile

33:55

for somebody who is causing problems for

33:58

the city-state. the

34:00

decision of a leader in very rare

34:02

cases. And the participation

34:04

for these bulls, hope

34:07

I'm pronouncing that right, might be Boulay, these

34:09

juries is much larger

34:11

than those who would participate, say,

34:13

in like assembly or a Senate.

34:15

These are large, pulled

34:18

from a lot of what you might call

34:20

average people. So you didn't exactly have democracy

34:22

in Athens like it's always said. The day-to-day

34:25

running of business is always elites. But

34:28

there were these things that existed, juries

34:30

and other checks on the government, and

34:32

a much larger everyday people kind of

34:34

feel. I

34:38

reread parts of

34:40

Garrett Gaff's excellent Watergate

34:42

book, Watergate a New

34:44

History, really focusing on the

34:46

greater Watergate, which is more

34:49

than just the

34:51

burglary, right? And it's more

34:53

than that. It's also the

34:57

ITT scandal where they were lobbying

35:00

on behalf of the getting, you

35:04

know, and donations were sought by

35:06

the Nixon administration in order to

35:08

avoid punishing ITT, not one saying

35:10

that ITT wanted to support

35:12

Nixon anyway, the break-in, Daniel

35:15

Zelsberg, the various dirty tricks, all of

35:17

these things you combine, and it's a

35:19

lot more than just breaking into the

35:21

DNC attempt to break into McGovern headquarters,

35:23

which wasn't successful, but it was attempted.

35:26

All of this is a series of

35:28

actions, not just one. And

35:33

I like his focus, it makes for a bigger book, and

35:36

it goes way beyond Woodward and Bernstein. I

35:39

also think it's very important to

35:41

talk about the Watergate jury. The

35:43

Watergate jury, because grand

35:45

jury operates all through that scandal up

35:48

until the point of right

35:50

before Nixon's resignation, and

35:52

it's doing a lot of work, and

35:54

it's approving and working on the evidence

35:57

that's presented. These are ordinary citizens living

35:59

in the district. of

36:01

Columbia, you know, and it speaks a

36:03

little to today's indictments. People say, oh,

36:06

this indictment is political. Well, a

36:08

grand jury is there, and

36:10

their job is to be sure that the

36:12

prosecutor is not being too political. It is

36:14

rare that they will return no bill. It

36:16

does happen. It's rare because for the most

36:18

part, prosecutors should be putting stuff forward that

36:21

isn't a crime. But

36:23

that's the check on in the American system. And people

36:25

forget that when they think it's just a prosecutor going

36:28

willy-nilly and bringing up whatever charges. I mean, these

36:30

things happen, and sometimes prosecutors

36:32

go too hard. They

36:34

say a jury, grand jury, will indict a

36:36

ham sandwich, but I think

36:38

there's a line there. I think that's an

36:41

overstatement. There's a line there. And certainly in

36:43

the Watergate cases, and perhaps in these most

36:45

recent cases, you know, there is a grand

36:47

jury doing some work here, and if they

36:50

don't think charges stick, they're gonna return no

36:52

bill, and not you won't

36:54

have an investigation. What

36:57

else we got? There's definitely other stuff.

37:00

Oh, the Patty Hearst. So I read

37:03

a great book. It's an old book,

37:05

but it's Jeffrey Toobin, American Heiress. And

37:08

that's the story of the Patty

37:10

Hearst kidnapping by the SLA. I

37:12

learned so much information. This SLA

37:14

group, they're kind of like a

37:17

mixture of, a bad mixture

37:20

of radicalized college students from

37:22

Berkeley and inmates and

37:24

escapees from a nearby prison.

37:27

And Bill DeFries, who

37:30

is the escaped inmate, who's the

37:32

leader of the SLA, is African-

37:34

American. He's escaped from

37:37

a nearby prison in

37:39

the area around San

37:41

Francisco. He leads the group,

37:44

kind of controls things, keeps

37:46

them on a military footing. They're

37:49

always doing physical training. They're always

37:51

training their arms. In

37:53

various places they're at, neighbors are complaining because

37:55

they start hearing gunfire because they have to

37:57

do some live shooting training. militarized

38:00

they're not a large group though.

38:02

It's only about six

38:05

Significant people there are two people that are already

38:07

in jail when the Patty Hearst events happen But

38:10

all of those eight people are

38:13

willing to die for the cause They

38:16

have intense training they brag about how good they

38:18

are at shooting and all of this They're not

38:21

you know, they are people who

38:23

had lives before the SLA They

38:26

are people who might be able to

38:28

laugh and joke Patty Hearst recounts having

38:31

some pleasant conversations with some of

38:33

them But no, they

38:35

are militarized and they want change

38:37

through radical force through assassinations And

38:39

the first thing that the SLA

38:42

does is kill a prominent

38:44

African-American school superintendent

38:46

in Oakland, so they start

38:48

with violence and it's going to

38:50

end up at least killing a

38:53

person in a bank robbery

38:56

and one of the bank robberies that they attempt

38:58

Patty Hearst is fortunately for her and not present

39:00

that that bank robbery although she did case the

39:02

bank for the SLA So

39:05

Patty Hearst is kidnapped With

39:08

she's with her boyfriend now her

39:10

fiancee if anyone had any sympathy

39:12

to Give

39:15

to Patty at any point along this the

39:17

last two months that they should extend it to

39:19

her now kind of an odd circumstance That

39:22

to been paints here because of course the question

39:24

about Patty Hearst fight We talked about the Patty

39:26

Hearst kid that was like did she or didn't

39:28

she wish she really into this SLA? I

39:31

wish she brainwashed forced into it and I think

39:33

you never quite resolved that question You

39:36

have to say that there's elements of both and

39:39

and to Ben's book gives you the

39:41

ammunition for for everything there gives

39:43

you the information you need to kind of understand

39:45

it in its context because She

39:48

went well beyond Almost

39:50

any other case of a person who

39:52

was kidnapped And had

39:54

a kind of Stockholm syndrome which even that

39:56

story I found it's full of holes there

39:58

really isn't a Stockholm syndrome. It's

40:01

made up by a psychologist who wasn't

40:03

present for any of the events where

40:05

people didn't in that hostage Taking the

40:07

Stockholm incident never felt that they were in

40:09

any Stockholm syndrome There might have been a

40:11

way to cover up the authorities problems, but

40:14

put all of that aside So

40:16

yeah You have you have one of the most extreme cases

40:18

to actually see a kid not be out there with a

40:20

machine gun Being photographed

40:22

and being part of a bank robbery

40:24

now She moves to

40:27

the not the greatest neighborhood outside of

40:29

Berkeley with her fiancee who had been

40:31

her tutor She's already kind of tired

40:33

of this relationship But now she's she's

40:35

wanted to get away from the family

40:37

house her father Randy Hearst will all

40:39

through these events Describe her as a

40:41

rebel and she's not that shocked that

40:43

he she would be out there calling

40:45

cops pigs and tucking her mother And

40:47

things like that because she had already

40:50

moved out of the family home and

40:52

to a neighborhood that Hearst don't normally

40:54

live in When the SLA is reading

40:56

things and they were ferocious

40:58

readers One of the SLA

41:00

members worked in a library to freeze

41:02

loved to read all kinds of books

41:04

and newspapers Especially their whole goal the

41:06

SLA was not just to kill assassinate

41:09

and revolutionize the government and

41:11

kidnap people But also to get

41:13

publicity publicity was their biggest thing. They were

41:15

skilled at it. What they'll do is send

41:18

Cassette tape recordings to radio stations to

41:21

get their message out and they would

41:23

say you know We've kidnapped Betty Hearst

41:25

if you do not publish this on

41:28

media news outlets and in newspapers, we

41:31

will kill her Well

41:33

knowing the American media they should have

41:35

known better. Of course, they're gonna publish

41:37

it They all published it everybody published

41:39

everything these SLA people said they originally

41:41

used one of the women so it

41:43

was African American male

41:46

Caucasian male and for

41:49

women women had like very good voices

41:51

so they would read in these like

41:53

really good voices this crazy Talk like

41:55

this crazy kind of 1960s militant talk

41:57

and we're gonna overthrow the government and

41:59

all of this stuff and the Hearst

42:01

is part of the machine and everything

42:03

like that. They don't make a ransom

42:05

demand. First of all, they kidnap her.

42:08

It's easy because there's no security around

42:10

her. They just enter the apartment and,

42:12

you know, knock on the door and

42:14

kidnap her. Something she'll be mad about.

42:16

The fiancé does not put up any

42:18

kind of fight. He's not

42:20

hurt in the incident. A neighbor who

42:22

comes out because a gun does discharge.

42:26

A neighbor who comes out ends up getting shot, and

42:28

he's okay, but not the fiancé.

42:31

After the day of the kidnapping, Patty

42:33

Hearst will never see her former fiancé

42:35

again. I mean, it wasn't going well

42:37

in any case from the details in

42:39

the book. Okay, they've kidnapped

42:42

her. They keep her in a

42:44

room that's dark. She's blindfolded for

42:46

30 days. They

42:48

give her food. She doesn't know

42:50

where she is. She doesn't know who these

42:52

people are. They do talk to her and,

42:54

you know, giving her this kind of 60s

42:56

hippie militant talk like you're a

42:58

prisoner of the SLA, your

43:00

family has committed crimes, etc.

43:03

You won't be harmed by us, they

43:05

say, unless the FBI shoots you. And

43:08

this will be part of her defense. They

43:11

make her very afraid, not that they're

43:13

going to kill her, but that the

43:15

FBI is going to come in in a shootout and kill her. And

43:18

if you believe Patty Hearst's side of the story,

43:20

which I question, but a lot of people question,

43:22

I think Jeffrey too, been questions, but

43:25

put this all aside, she was

43:27

desperately afraid that the FBI

43:29

was going to come in and in a shootout

43:31

kill everyone, including her. And she

43:33

was so afraid that after 30 days,

43:36

when she's finally allowed to at

43:38

first, they take her blindfold off,

43:41

they put on face masks. Eventually

43:44

they even take those off. She's

43:46

given meals, she's talked to, you

43:49

know, they, from what Jeffrey Tobin

43:51

can piece together from the surviving

43:54

SLA members accounts and

43:56

from her account, Other

43:59

information the police have. Have. It

44:01

slowly brought up hey, maybe you

44:04

can participate in some things. Mostly

44:06

they wanted to be your show.

44:09

Because. When you look at the High

44:11

Bernie a bank robbery that she participates in

44:13

where she has a machine gun, they position

44:15

her right in front of the security camera.

44:17

The know where it is, tell her to

44:19

stand there. but and this will be key

44:21

to the prosecution of her. No one has

44:23

a gun pointed at her, see has a

44:25

gun in her hand. that gun is loaded.

44:27

They know that he just happened to jail.

44:30

I see no reason to further. The found month

44:32

is this. Consciousness

44:34

terrifying to the room class and

44:37

I would have anything to discredit

44:39

to for for realized that the

44:41

only alternative to prove that. See

44:44

tells everyone in the bank to. Get.

44:46

The F Down, and all of this stuff. Is

44:49

another incident. Relate the book which really

44:51

brings you to the side of Patty

44:54

Hearst had converted to a Subway. Then

44:56

it's just a question of his it. Brainwashing.

44:59

Or not or would have. A Not

45:01

the only where we can fool

45:03

ourselves at this as Dictator says

45:05

is by far the murderer or

45:08

Wolfgang i'm a soldier on the

45:10

People are. On

45:13

my phone I'm from. But.

45:16

That incident is that so they go

45:18

on of and to do some shopping.

45:20

it is merely Patty Hearst one of

45:22

the man and when the when and

45:24

a man women go to Mel's shopping

45:27

good. They had moved down to L

45:29

A to try to all the police

45:31

seem to be in San Francisco so

45:33

they drove Dunaway go to melt shopping

45:35

goods in. You. Know why? They.

45:38

Try to steal. A

45:41

bandolier which is still king Carrie

45:43

Ammunition for machine gun he trump

45:45

steal it. Periods.

45:48

The. Guy work in Mls is a

45:50

cop in training and he tackles

45:52

the the guy for shoplifting skulls.

45:55

The police are gonna hold you

45:57

till the police com. The.

45:59

woman's like screaming, but he's got

46:01

one handcuff on one of

46:03

the SLA members when all of a sudden

46:05

there's gunfire and

46:08

that gunfire is coming from the van

46:10

parked right across the street. And

46:13

it's a lot of gunfire. It's a machine

46:15

gunfire, essentially, and it's everybody has to duck.

46:20

And the SLA member tells

46:22

him, dude, you need to let

46:24

go of me right now. We're part of the SLA. He

46:27

shouldn't reveal this, but he says it because he wants

46:29

to scare him. You need to get out of here

46:31

right now. And

46:33

the guy's torn because he wants to be

46:35

a cop and he's got a

46:37

chance now after he had the SLA, but

46:39

he does eventually back away. Here's

46:42

the thing, though. Patty Hearst is in a van

46:44

alone. It is unlocked. She's got weapons, as

46:46

we see here. She's got weapons. She's

46:49

got the vans. The keys are in the car.

46:51

She can easily escape. It's not the first time

46:54

when there are situations. There's

46:57

various times where police stop vehicles

46:59

that it's later ascertained. Patty Hearst

47:01

was in the vehicle. Could have

47:03

easily told the police officer, I'm

47:05

Patty Hearst. I want out. They

47:08

went across country and were stopped. At

47:11

certain points, the people accompanying her

47:13

were unarmed and they were traffic

47:15

stopped and easily could have said

47:17

an officer, I'm Patty Hearst. It's a national news story.

47:19

She had no interest in it, whether that's from

47:21

brainwashing or whatever. She had no interest in

47:24

it and she showed herself by protecting these

47:26

members. After that, she was

47:28

definitely in. She was given assignments and was

47:30

doing regular assignments. Part

47:32

of their military training and everything like that, she

47:34

was called Tanya. She would

47:37

then start to deliver the messages in

47:39

her own voice and she'd make comments

47:41

about her mother. When her mother's

47:43

wearing a certain black dress,

47:45

she said, stop wearing that black dress. Patty

47:49

Hearst is prosecuted. Members in the

47:51

FBI really believe she had converted. They even

47:53

thought that maybe the kidnapping was a suspect.

47:57

We don't think so. It's

48:00

quite a story and I can't relay it all in

48:02

this cast, but hey, those

48:04

are some things I've been reading a bit about

48:06

and working on. The

48:10

rest of this is a little bit that didn't make it into

48:12

Carter 1981, and it's just some news

48:14

coverage from New York Magazine in

48:17

1981. Crime

48:21

was a big topic in 1981. It

48:23

always had been, but it was really big

48:25

in this year. There on

48:27

video was a congressman. Taking

48:30

a paper bag with $50,000 in it.

48:34

I hope you spend it well, says

48:36

the chic on video who handed it

48:38

to the congressman from Pennsylvania. The chic,

48:40

it turned out, was an FBI agent.

48:44

Part of the abscam scandal. There was crime on

48:46

the street as well. The former

48:48

heavyweight champion of the world, Leon

48:50

Spinks, is mugged into Troy,

48:53

robbed of $55,000 worth of clothes, jewelry.

48:58

Even his gold dental work. He was

49:00

the heavyweight champion of the world, but

49:02

he was leaving the bar when he

49:04

was struck on the head. That's all

49:07

he remembers. Next thing you know, he's

49:09

in an unknown hotel. They even took

49:11

his blue fox coat. I

49:13

read New York Magazine from January

49:15

19, 1981,

49:17

just as Carter's doing those final

49:20

negotiations and telexes. The

49:23

front page is New York, Open City.

49:25

The bad guys are winning. There's stories

49:27

about how crime in New York, the

49:29

police, the courts, the prison system have

49:31

given up. The authorities made little if

49:33

any attempt to capture those responsible for

49:35

committing 335,775 burglaries in the 21 months

49:37

ending last September. The

49:44

city has given notice to its citizens that they're no

49:46

longer to be protected. A judge is interviewed. He has

49:48

120 cases a day. My

49:51

robe is a symbol of mourning. Who could

49:54

have respect for justice in a place like

49:56

this? Governor Kerry and

49:58

Mayor Ed Koch are seeking real justice. election in

50:00

1981 in the face of an 18.8% increase in crime. It

50:07

added in the magazine blares, the

50:09

new Datsun 280ZX luxury in the

50:11

fast lane. Remember yesterday's image

50:13

of a sports car? It had to be as

50:15

noisy as a foundry, ride like a rock,

50:17

and be spartan as a monk's cell. Well,

50:20

the Datsun 280ZX has turned it

50:22

all around. Up above you'll see

50:24

its lavishly appointed interior. Luxury

50:27

has been well attended, from power windows

50:29

to climate control air conditioning, and for

50:31

the first time, an optional T-bar roof

50:33

is available on the Rumi 2 Plus

50:36

2. Even long

50:38

time owners at Cadillacs and Mercedes have seen the

50:40

wisdom of opting for a sleek new Z car.

50:42

It gives them all the luxury they're accustomed to, plus

50:45

the mileage and the range they

50:47

need today. Another

50:49

Ed, 20 questions for the working woman of the 80s.

50:52

Do you want to know how to create the perfect job?

50:55

If your skills

50:57

are up to the job you're after, why other

50:59

women succeed, how to measure yourself against women at

51:01

the top, the sure strategies for getting a raise,

51:04

how to plan for the 80s, over

51:06

2 million women are enjoying the extra

51:08

edge that comes from their copy of

51:10

Working Woman each month. If

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you want more out of your life, order

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Working Woman for only $9. Half

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51:25

enclosed, or please bill me. I

51:47

want to thank everybody for supporting me, supporting

51:49

my history, and giving up your politics. In

51:52

addition to your financial support, which I

51:54

appreciate greatly, if you haven't reviewed the

51:56

program on iTunes, if you haven't rated it on iTunes, you can

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go to my website, www. I should say Apple

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way you can talk to others about it, I

52:07

appreciate it. That's how we spread the word. It

52:09

is so hard to get podcast audience these days.

52:11

I'm lucky to have what I have in

52:14

that my episodes will get you know,

52:16

7000, 8000, no problem number of downloads,

52:19

but it's hard to grow. And I suspect

52:22

this people out there would like to listen

52:24

that aren't listening now. They like politics, they

52:26

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