0:00

And

0:00

thanks to At Home for joining us this hour. I'm really happy

0:02

to have you here. I will say just one note before we get started

0:04

tonight. I know things might look

0:06

a little different than usual. That

0:08

is just because I'm doing the show tonight from someplace

0:11

new. I am in Los Angeles tonight. I'm

0:14

at what is essentially the midpoint of this

0:16

book tour that I'm doing for my new book. That's

0:19

why I'm here. I am not a great

0:22

traveler. I am not great at this.

0:25

But

0:25

just before I start the show tonight, I just

0:27

briefly wanted to say thank you to all the bookstores

0:29

and the venues that we have been at so far, and

0:31

all the moderators who have been on stage with me. Thanks

0:35

in particular to everybody who has come out to one of

0:37

these events. It has been thousands

0:39

of people so far, which is crazy. But

0:43

it's just been really nice to be out there at so

0:45

many events in so many different cities to meet people

0:47

who value this show, who love MSNBC.

0:50

I have heard a lot of love from my MSNBC colleagues.

0:53

So it's just, it's been fantastic. And I do

0:55

this very, very rarely. And I

0:58

know that it is a huge amount of

0:59

work and a pain in the butt for everybody involved

1:01

in making this happen, in part because

1:04

I personally am a pain in the butt. So

1:07

it just makes me all the more grateful.

1:10

Out of the rest of this book tour, again,

1:13

we're about halfway done. There are only two dates

1:15

left that still have seats. And those

1:17

are events this week, Phoenix on Wednesday

1:19

and Tulsa, Oklahoma on Friday.

1:22

So if you want to come to either of those

1:25

events this week, Phoenix and Tulsa,

1:28

for those two remaining events, you can

1:30

still get tickets, but everything else is

1:32

sold out. All right, I just wanted to start

1:34

with that before we get underway today. I will not mention

1:36

it again. I just want to say

1:39

thanks to everybody who's been so kind. Thanks

1:41

to everybody who's been reading the book and coming

1:43

out to hear me talk about it. All right,

1:45

so that is why things look a little bit different in

1:47

terms of this set. But we

1:49

have a ton to get to tonight. It's gonna

1:51

be a really busy week in the news. Tonight,

1:54

of course, we are coming up on three weeks

1:56

since Republicans fired their

1:59

own party's

1:59

the House in so doing, they

2:02

basically got rid of Congress. They

2:04

barely avoided shutting down the whole federal

2:07

government, but then they did shut down the legislative

2:09

branch of government. The House of Representatives

2:12

cannot function without a speaker. Republicans

2:14

fired their speaker. They appear to have no idea how to

2:16

hire

2:16

a new one. They also appear to have no real

2:18

urgency about doing it either. So we are three

2:21

weeks into the House of Representatives effectively

2:24

being closed, but

2:26

they're apparently going to try again for a

2:28

speaker vote tomorrow. We'll talk about

2:30

that this hour. We'll talk specifically about how

2:33

Republicans idea for

2:34

a plan B, a sort of trick

2:36

play they've been hinting they

2:38

might want to pull to avoid having to pick

2:40

a leader. That is a trick play that

2:43

will not work. It is something they really cannot

2:45

do, which we'll talk about that

2:47

this hour, but it just puts all the more pressure

2:49

on them for tomorrow. Also,

2:53

just a heads up that at the same time

2:55

that drama is going to get underway in Washington

2:58

tomorrow, up

3:00

the Isola corridor in New York City tomorrow,

3:03

we're going to have drama of a

3:05

different kind. And this is likely all going to be

3:07

happening literally at the same time

3:10

of day tomorrow. Former

3:12

President Donald Trump, as you know, he's facing more than 90

3:15

felony criminal charges in four different jurisdictions.

3:18

The case where he's actually been showing up in

3:21

court already is none of those criminal

3:23

cases. It's the civil case against him and his

3:25

business that was filed by the New York

3:27

Attorney General. Now, you do not have to

3:29

show up for a civil case.

3:32

Former President Trump does not have to be there in

3:34

court for this case, but nevertheless,

3:36

he has been there.

3:38

And I'm pointing that out because tomorrow

3:40

we are expecting live testimony

3:42

in that trial, testimony

3:45

against him from his former attorney

3:48

and his former fixer, Michael Cohen. Both

3:50

Michael Cohen and Trump are expected to be

3:52

there in court in real time in

3:54

person. I'm flagging this

3:57

to you not just because of the expected.

4:00

You know, interpersonal drama, the spectacle

4:02

of it all. But because Trump's

4:04

role in this case, including his behavior

4:07

in the courtroom, has already

4:09

been a substantive issue

4:11

in this case. This is the case

4:13

where the judge imposed the first gag

4:16

order on Trump after Trump attacked

4:18

a member of the judge's staff. This

4:21

is the case where the judge hauled everyone back into

4:23

court and threatened Trump with jail

4:26

after Trump's attacks on the judge's

4:28

staff or nevertheless left up on a Trump

4:30

campaign website. This is the case where

4:32

Trump was admonished, basically legally

4:34

smacked down by the judge because Trump

4:36

became so enraged and animated

4:39

during some live testimony from

4:41

some real estate appraiser that

4:45

Trump could not control himself in the courtroom.

4:48

He was speaking out loud and gesturing

4:50

and making a scene in the courtroom, which caused the

4:52

judge to admonish him in the courtroom.

4:56

So this case has been a little

4:58

touch and go so far in terms of the former president's

5:01

behavior. He's used to doing whatever he

5:03

wants without any consequences

5:06

his whole life. This case

5:08

in particular seems to be really bothering

5:10

him. And the judge in this case

5:13

thus far appears to be quite unimpressed

5:16

by the former president's behavior. The judge also

5:18

seems to be unafraid to hold the

5:20

former president to the same standards any other

5:23

defendant would be held in a federal

5:25

court civil trial, including just how

5:27

you need to physically behave yourself

5:29

when you are in a courtroom. I'm

5:32

pointing all this out because if Trump

5:35

already got admonished by the judge

5:37

in this case because he was so overwhelmed by

5:39

his feelings and his anger about

5:41

some appraiser's testimony, tomorrow

5:44

he's gonna be sitting there through testimony by

5:46

Michael Cohen, which is likely to be way

5:49

more provocative and way more upsetting

5:51

to former president Trump than anything that

5:53

has happened in the courtroom before. And he has barely

5:55

been able to hold it together in the courtroom up

5:58

till now. And then there's gonna be cross. examination

6:00

of Michael Cohen by Trump's own lawyers,

6:02

and that is likely to be a 4th of July fireworks

6:05

show if the rest of this trial is to

6:07

be anything to go by. So

6:10

that's going to be tomorrow. That is all going to happen live

6:13

in a New York courtroom in

6:15

front of a judge who does not play. And

6:19

maybe everything will go smoothly and great and

6:21

everybody will be calm, cool, and professional.

6:24

We shall see. But this is the case where the judge has

6:26

already threatened to jail Trump for his behavior

6:28

related to this case. And

6:31

so just a heads up for tomorrow.

6:34

For that, that will likely be happening at the

6:36

exact same time that the House is voting again

6:38

on trying to pick a new speaker. It

6:41

is all worth watching for.

6:44

So I want to get into tonight's

6:46

show, though. I want to start tonight with what feels

6:48

like it might be an important new stage

6:52

in the war between Israel and Hamas. Now

6:54

we don't want to overstate things. I

6:57

want to be clear that the big picture

6:59

remains the same. Israel,

7:01

in response to the terrorist attack by Hamas

7:04

that killed more than a thousand Israeli civilians,

7:06

has continued its airstrikes inside

7:09

the densely populated Gaza Strip. While

7:11

there's been so much expectation as to whether Israel

7:14

is going to launch a ground invasion

7:16

and when they're going to do that, in the meantime, they

7:18

have launched these devastating airstrikes

7:21

day after day after day. And more than 4000 people

7:24

in Gaza are believed to have been killed

7:26

since the Israeli retaliation

7:28

for the Hamas terrorist attacks began 17

7:30

days ago. Civilians

7:35

cannot leave Gaza still, even

7:37

including the U.S. citizens who

7:40

are among the civilians there. But

7:43

the first trickle of aid has

7:46

been allowed in. A small convoy of aid trucks

7:48

was allowed in on Saturday and

7:50

then another convoy was allowed in

7:52

on Sunday and then another small convoy

7:55

was allowed in

7:56

today.

7:57

And that is good. That is not enough.

8:00

that is something. The

8:04

aid that has come in thus far does not involve fuel. And

8:08

while fuel might not seem like the most important thing to

8:10

supply when you're talking about humanitarian aid,

8:12

the UN is raising urgent

8:14

concerns about the remaining hospitals

8:16

inside Gaza and whether they can keep

8:19

their generators running, to keep electricity

8:21

on inside the hospitals, to keep things like

8:23

ventilators running and life support machines

8:26

for people who are grievously ill and also for

8:28

newborn babies. The

8:30

US military has moved considerable resources

8:33

and personnel to the region. There are ongoing

8:35

worries about the conflict potentially broadening

8:38

to include other countries and other armed militias

8:40

in the region. The US embassies both in

8:42

Iraq and in Lebanon have sent out new

8:44

warnings about the safety of

8:46

US citizens and US diplomatic staff and

8:48

their families. So,

8:51

I mean, all that to say, the biggest of big pictures

8:53

here remains as precarious as ever, but there is a

8:55

tiny little bit of hope on one piece of it tonight.

8:58

We saw two hostages who had been taken by Hamas,

9:00

an Israeli-American mother and daughter, get

9:02

released on Friday. Tonight, two

9:04

more hostages have been released. This

9:07

is two frail,

9:09

elderly Israeli women, both in their 80s,

9:11

both of whom have been held by Hamas for more than

9:13

two weeks. The two of them were

9:15

released tonight. There

9:18

had been some reports today about the potential

9:20

release of a much larger group of hostages,

9:22

maybe four dozen or more

9:25

hostages potentially set

9:27

to be released in some sort of arrangement.

9:30

But NBC has not been able to confirm independently

9:32

any of those reports. They remain just

9:35

a glimmer for people who are trying

9:37

to maintain hope here. So far, only four

9:39

hostages have been released.

9:43

Joining us now is NBC News chief foreign correspondent

9:45

Richard Engel live from Jerusalem. Richard, thank

9:47

you so much for being here. I know it's the middle of the night, four

9:49

in the morning there. I really appreciate you.

9:54

It's always the middle of the night with you, Rachel.

9:56

No matter where you go in the country, it's always the middle of

9:58

the night and it's always talking about something.

9:59

grim. But yeah, how

10:02

are you? It's true. I'm

10:04

okay, Richard. It's always, it's true. We need

10:06

to come up with some other beat that you and I covered

10:08

together and at better times.

10:10

But Richard, let me ask you about this, the

10:13

hostage situation. Obviously, everybody,

10:15

you know, everybody's overjoyed

10:17

to see two hostages released on

10:20

Friday, to see two more released today.

10:22

There was some reporting

10:24

today, which NBC has not independently confirmed,

10:26

that maybe we should expect additional hostage

10:29

releases in larger numbers. What's

10:31

your understanding of that and what

10:33

do we know about these older women who are released today?

10:38

So what we're trying to do

10:41

is to track these negotiations

10:43

in real time through the negotiators.

10:46

But obviously the negotiators are

10:48

working with Hamas, working with

10:51

the Israeli authorities. Primarily we're talking

10:53

about Egyptian and Qatari negotiators.

10:56

And it is a very, very difficult

10:58

process to follow because obviously for

11:01

security reasons, they don't want to give away too much.

11:04

But they are actively trying to

11:07

trade things. The Hamas wants certain

11:09

things. It wants

11:12

the sort of more access for humanitarian

11:14

supplies into the Gaza Strip. It

11:16

wants some of its prisoners to be released.

11:19

It wants to engage in a kind of

11:21

resumption of a peace process, to

11:24

have a path towards statehood. We're

11:26

hearing more and more from Hamas about

11:29

its specific demands. I spoke to a senior Hamas leader

11:31

tonight about these specific

11:34

issues. And there is hope that there

11:36

will be more. And during the day

11:38

today,

11:38

I was

11:41

one of those people who thought, okay, there's going to be

11:43

more. There's these rumors, reports

11:46

of a potentially larger group that

11:48

could have come out today. But these negotiations

11:52

don't always go well. And

11:54

even when these two Israeli women

11:56

were eventually released, Hamas

12:00

released them, but sort of issued a complaint

12:02

saying we're releasing them even

12:05

though Israel violated

12:07

the terms of our agreement eight

12:10

times. And there had been,

12:12

although we didn't notice it, a mini

12:15

ceasefire, a pause for a few

12:17

hours today according to Hamas,

12:20

and another pause, it said was six hours

12:22

long in the airstrikes on Friday. So

12:25

they're negotiating things big and small.

12:28

Sometimes it's just a pause for a few hours or

12:31

much larger issues about opening access

12:33

to the Gaza Strip, potentially prisoner

12:36

swaps, potentially more than that. So

12:39

this could take some time. And

12:41

every time that there is hope,

12:44

there is a lot of chance

12:46

that things could go wrong, that there's another

12:48

airstrike changed in complications.

12:51

Communications are difficult because

12:54

this senior Hamas leader told me tonight

12:56

the hostages are held in different places. Communication

13:00

from one place to the other is difficult

13:03

so that they're facing some

13:05

logistical challenges

13:08

just to gather these people and try

13:11

and free them if they want. Now that could be

13:13

Hamas coming up with excuses, but

13:15

you said, is it a glimmer of hope? Yes,

13:18

at least there's some movement. At least they're not

13:21

executing these hostages in one

13:23

every hour or anything like that. There

13:25

does seem to be some progress.

13:28

There are lines of communication to Hamas,

13:30

and there are efforts

13:33

ongoing by friendly nations

13:35

to try and secure the release of these people.

13:38

Richard, it strikes

13:40

me as a pretty incredible thing in its own right

13:42

that you've been in touch with senior Hamas

13:45

officials about this issue.

13:47

Did they explain or did they put

13:49

it to you in any way that you

13:53

can convey to us

13:54

why they took these hostages? And if they

13:56

planned from the outset that they would hold

13:59

these hostages

13:59

is in order to try

14:02

to extract concessions or ceasefires

14:04

or any other things that they're asking for

14:07

now as just

14:09

the first four of them had been let go. It

14:12

almost feels, from some of the reporting that I've seen

14:14

about their hostage taking, that

14:16

Hamas didn't necessarily know what they were going

14:18

to do with these civilian hostages when they got them,

14:20

let alone in these large numbers more than 200 of

14:22

them. Did they give you

14:24

any sense, any clarity on what

14:27

their intention was or what their intentions are

14:29

in the long run with these people?

14:32

My

14:34

interpretation, and some of this is just my analysis

14:37

of having covered this for a long time,

14:40

covered the Middle East, covered Hamas for many

14:42

years, I think they bit off

14:44

more than they could chew. What

14:47

we're seeing in Gaza is a result

14:49

of Hamas not realizing

14:51

how far it was going to get, how devastating

14:54

its attack would be, how many people

14:56

they would take. The

14:58

group has also hinted at that. There was one

15:01

statement from their chief

15:03

military spokesman, Abu Ubaidah, who

15:05

said that they swept

15:07

up all these foreign nationals by

15:10

accident because as people were being

15:12

dragged over the border, they didn't have a chance,

15:14

this is according to them, to verify

15:16

their identities and they ended up

15:19

with too many non- Israelis. Even

15:22

they acknowledged that it was a chaotic

15:24

time and that they ended

15:27

up with more people than they wanted. On

15:29

the other question, what do they want to do

15:31

with them? They clearly intended to take people.

15:34

They clearly went in to kill people

15:36

and capture people, but probably

15:39

not this many and probably not this

15:41

many foreign nationals bringing the entire world

15:44

against them. What

15:46

they want is they want concessions. Every

15:49

time they've taken people in the past, they

15:51

have been able to secure

15:53

the release of prisoners. Many

15:55

of the top Hamas leaders themselves,

15:58

the inner circle of Hamas, were right. running the group

16:00

now, were themselves prisoners

16:03

in Israeli jails who were swapped

16:06

when other members

16:09

of Hamas grabbed an Israeli soldier

16:11

and then demanded, and then

16:13

part of their demands was

16:16

a prisoner release. So they, the top

16:18

leadership themselves, know this process

16:21

from personal experience. It secured

16:23

their own release. So I

16:25

think at the end, as we get closer and

16:28

more and more hostages come out, and hopefully

16:31

that will happen, hopefully that will happen soon and

16:33

in larger numbers, I think we're going to start

16:36

hearing not just demands about more

16:38

access for humanitarian aid into Gaza

16:41

and more access for fuel and

16:43

other things, but we'll start, they'll start

16:45

asking for the, more specifically, for

16:47

the demands of prisoners. And they've already

16:50

said that as well. One of the Hamas leaders I was

16:52

talking to said in order to release the soldiers,

16:55

they make a distinction between

16:57

the civilians and the soldiers.

17:00

Although here in Israel with Hamas, it's

17:02

quite difficult because a lot

17:04

of Israelis, until they're quite

17:06

old, can potentially be reservists

17:09

in this country. So who gets considered a soldier

17:12

is a little bit up to Hamas's interpretation.

17:15

But they have said for the soldiers, not

17:17

specifying exactly who they

17:19

consider a soldier, if you're active duty, non-active

17:22

duty, serving in uniform, out of uniform,

17:24

et cetera, they said they want the release of all

17:27

Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.

17:29

And there are thousands of them.

17:32

Richard Engel, chief foreign correspondent

17:35

for NBC News. This has been a day of real

17:37

ups and downs, specifically on this issue of the

17:40

Israeli hostages. Thanks for keeping

17:42

us up to date and keeping us honest on this, Richard. I appreciate

17:45

it, my friend. Sure

17:47

thing. We've got much more ahead

17:51

here tonight. Lots of news going on tonight. Stay

17:53

with us.

17:57

available,

18:00

but the Rachel Maddow show still is, check

18:03

out the full episode audio podcast

18:05

or watch the show online anytime at

18:07

now.msnbc.com.