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This episode we

0:14

continue our investigation into the mind

0:16

and crimes of Stoneman Douglas High School

0:18

shooter Nicholas Cruz, including

0:20

testimony from his trial.

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0:45

This is Monsters Who Murder,

0:48

serial killer confessions.

0:50

Police found 27 corpses. Australia's

0:52

worst serial killer. You know I didn't want to get

0:55

in the car. I absolutely didn't. With

0:57

Amanda Howard and Robert McKnight.

1:01

Hello there and welcome to Monsters Who Murder, serial killer

1:03

confessions. I'm Rob McKnight and

1:06

joining me, of course, is

1:08

the serial killer whisperer, true crime author

1:10

and criminologist, Amanda Howard. Hello

1:12

Amanda.

1:14

Hello Robert. And can I say I want

1:17

to wish you good luck straight off the top of today's episode because

1:20

I know you're going in for some surgery later this week.

1:22

Yes, I'm getting some

1:24

surgery on my throat in the

1:26

aims of trying to get a deep voice

1:28

for broadcasting. No, I'm… I

1:33

have a little nodule in

1:35

my throat, in my voice box that

1:37

causes me to do that all the time. So

1:39

it'll be quite nice

1:42

to have that gone and hopefully have that

1:44

issue gone.

1:46

Yes, it's very worrying

1:49

that you're having this surgery. So I know

1:51

you've got a great nurse there that will look after you so

1:53

you'll be fine. That's

1:56

you, Amanda. Amanda. Yes, Amanda.

1:59

Amanda will be fine. was actually looking around going,

2:01

who? Who's coming over? She actually

2:06

thought you were coming over at one stage. Oh

2:09

God, no. I suck at being helpful.

2:12

Ain't that the truth? All right. Okay.

2:17

Nicholas Cruz, when we left

2:19

you last time, he was in the middle of a psychological

2:22

appointment with Dr. Scott. We're

2:26

continuing that now. You might remember we were

2:28

going to take you back to the incident

2:30

in McDonald's. This is where we're picking up. So

2:33

you remember that Cruz had escaped and

2:36

in a brief time got to McDonald's.

2:38

Now this will create a whole different

2:41

perspective. So how

2:43

did you get to McDonald's? How what? There's

2:46

a long ways from the Walmart.

2:48

Second one do you think? So from school

2:51

to Walmart is about 100,000 yards.

2:55

And then how far is it? And then you go much

2:57

down the road. Probably another 600 yards.

3:00

600 yards to the McDonald's.

3:03

And did you get anything to eat at the McDonald's? I

3:05

thought about it. And do you

3:07

know if you got anything? Or you're hungry?

3:11

Especially have a wife and a wife.

3:15

And what happened at the McDonald's?

3:18

I talked to this kid. His

3:21

sister was at the stomach

3:23

still. Okay.

3:26

And did you have any conversation about

3:29

how did he ask you to do a U or did he ask you anything

3:31

about it? I asked him if I could have a lift. I

3:33

needed to go to work or something

3:36

like that. And he said he couldn't do it. He had

3:38

a sobriety.

3:38

So

3:41

we're going to be sad story since sister

3:43

died in the building.

3:46

It's an interesting way to put it. The sad part

3:49

is his sister died in the building. Now

3:51

let's, like we need reminding,

3:55

she didn't die in the building. She was gunned down

3:58

mercilessly by... Nicholas

4:00

Cruz. He shot and killed

4:02

her and then asked her brother for

4:04

a lifetime. I'm

4:07

going to show that vision again. He was

4:09

sitting across the table, right here, remember,

4:12

across from the

4:15

brother of the sister. He was sitting right

4:18

across from the brother of the girl

4:20

that he had just killed. He was worried

4:22

about her sister being at the high school

4:25

where there had been a killer and the killer's

4:27

sitting in front of him. Crazy

4:29

stuff, Amanda.

4:31

It is. We know

4:34

from his testimony that he

4:36

was trying to ring his sister to find out where she was because she

4:38

wasn't answering and this is why she wasn't

4:40

answering. But as you said, he

4:43

is saying she died in the building. It sounds

4:45

like, oh my God, there was an earthquake, something

4:48

different happened. Not that he stood there,

4:50

took aim and fired at her and killed her.

4:53

The fact that he has that distance

4:55

from it, that is what he is trying

4:57

to do. There is a disassociation.

5:00

Rather than saying, yes, I pointed her out

5:03

and I got her and then I saw her

5:05

brother. He tried to escape with

5:07

the brother of a victim. You

5:10

can't get more cold and cold than that. He probably

5:12

didn't know at the time that they were brother and sister

5:15

but the fact that he is trying to escape by

5:17

another kid who can't

5:19

even focus. He is trying to ring his mum. He is trying to ring

5:21

his sister. He is saying,

5:24

I have a soccer game that afternoon. As

5:27

if that was like that life was going

5:29

to be okay. Whereas in fact,

5:31

it absolutely got

5:32

destroyed. He wouldn't

5:34

have known who he killed in most of the instances.

5:36

He might have noticed

5:38

some faces or something like that. But even

5:40

the outrageous moment

5:43

when a guy is saying his sister is missing and

5:47

the likelihood is that he

5:49

was the cause of

5:52

that girl missing. Let's move on

5:54

because after another jump in the clips, Dr

5:56

Scott asks crews about

5:58

when he began hurting animals. animals and for

6:01

our animal lovers out there, a word of warning, Cruz

6:04

does discuss torture in this clip. Now,

6:08

you've told me some different examples of things you've done

6:10

to animals, different animals.

6:13

When was the very first time you could remember ever

6:15

doing something that people might look at and say that's not very

6:17

kind to an animal? How many? Stocholysis,

6:21

back lip, a rock. And

6:23

how old were you? Three.

6:27

Okay. And how come you did,

6:29

what do you remember about doing that? Me

6:32

and my brother did. We went around killing lizards. Okay.

6:36

Sometimes they're scared of the light, sometimes they

6:38

set on fire. Okay, the lizards? When

6:41

did you start scanning the lizards alive? I

6:45

just taped them to the little, like,

6:47

table and I took a knife and I just started

6:50

to... Okay. How old

6:52

were you the first time you did that, do you think?

6:55

Four. Okay. And then

6:58

what about setting them on fire, how would you

7:00

do that? Take a lighter, and

7:03

burn instantly. How would they react? Burn

7:05

instantly. Are they burning

7:07

slowly, do they make any movement or sound or anything?

7:09

They start crawling up and then just

7:12

follow it. So

7:16

that's a three, four. Okay,

7:19

tell me what happened next, what's the next kind of progression

7:21

of that? Bird

7:27

eggs. Bird eggs? What did you

7:29

do with bird eggs? I took them out of the

7:31

nest and I threw them against the wall. How

7:34

come? Because I was bored. I wouldn't

7:36

let me out of the house. Okay, what do you think

7:38

was going to happen to the

7:40

egg if you did that? Crack. Okay.

7:44

And how old were you with

7:46

that? Seven. Okay.

7:49

And then what else? What's the other next? Let's

7:51

see. Okay.

8:02

I set spiders

8:05

on fire. Okay, how old were

8:07

you with that? Those banana spiders from those

8:09

people. Are those really big? Yeah. Okay.

8:13

I set them on fire with sunflower. That's a spray can. That's

8:15

so cool. Now,

8:18

Amanda, this is something we've talked a bit

8:20

about on this podcast because torturing animals

8:23

is seen as part of the serial killer triad

8:25

along with any races that's bedwetting

8:28

and setting fires. Now, this

8:30

is a three-year-old kid bashing and skinning

8:33

garden lizards. I

8:36

do wonder because I do think sometimes

8:39

kids go out and explore and they

8:42

sometimes do some stupid things, but maybe

8:45

just once, but this

8:47

was a pattern, right? Absolutely.

8:50

I mean, and

8:52

the psychiatrist is actually looking at

8:56

the escalation because

8:58

he did start at small and worked bigger. Eggs and then banana spiders. I'm

9:01

never going near my banana tree again. Maybe

9:03

I will with a spray can like he did. It's

9:07

just amazing that we see that he moves

9:10

up and he moves to people. You know, he's not a serial

9:12

killer. Yes, but we

9:14

can see the same triad that's actually working.

9:17

And you're racist. We're not so sure,

9:19

but, you know, he did set fires and

9:21

he did actually torture animals,

9:23

like not just, you know, I think that we've all

9:26

probably popped ants, you know, rather

9:28

the piece of glass and magnifying glass

9:30

and popping them. I think we've all done that, which is horrible.

9:33

And I'll admit to that, but that's it.

9:36

We did it once, as you said, maybe twice and

9:39

we move on, but he's like escalating. So there's

9:41

this compulsive behavior that continues

9:43

to grow along with what he's actually doing.

9:46

So, you know, but at the same

9:48

time, whereas we're disgusted by

9:50

that, he is talking to a matter of fact,

9:53

his tone of speech hasn't changed.

9:56

It's not there's no excitement. There's

9:58

no disgust. He's like, yep. This is

10:00

what happened next. I was three when I did this,

10:02

I was six when I did this. And it's amazing

10:04

that he's so detached. Oh,

10:07

she died in the building. Yeah, I

10:09

said spiders on fire. There's

10:12

just no change in how he's feeling

10:14

about any of that.

10:16

Yeah. Okay. Well, there's another

10:18

cut in the tape and it takes us to Cruz's reading

10:20

choices in prison and his

10:22

knowledge of Vladimir Putin of all people.

10:25

What kind of books are you reading now? I have

10:27

a book of maps. I'm trying to figure

10:29

out what's happening in Ukraine. They're attacking on

10:32

fourth sides, they're Russians. Yeah. So

10:34

it sounds like you're able to get some news while you're in here. Terrible

10:38

news. Yeah. And so you have

10:40

a map and you're even sort of hurt on the news about...

10:42

You're getting close to the capital of Ukraine,

10:45

Kyivhia. Yeah. Tell me what you've learned on

10:47

the news about what's happening with this. Well, so far heard that

10:49

Putin ordered a missile strike

10:51

near the capital. Okay. I

10:54

killed 10 people. Okay.

10:55

Anything else you've learned? I learned

10:57

that UN

11:00

and all the other countries are afraid

11:02

that they put Putin in a

11:04

back corner in my least nuclear weapons. Okay.

11:08

And from what you've learned about your history

11:10

and this map... Actually,

11:13

a lot about him actually. He did judo. He

11:16

had trouble in school. That's his business you're talking

11:18

about? He actually told

11:20

his cast that he couldn't go into the KTV. They

11:23

had to find him. He couldn't find

11:26

them. He had to go through this whole process in order to

11:28

go there. How'd you learn all this? They

11:30

had a book on a book card I got on. Oh, okay. That

11:33

book card here? Yeah. His father served

11:36

in World War II. Before

11:38

that, he had a grandfather who served in World

11:40

War I. All right,

11:43

Godfather. I don't know. I can't remember. His

11:46

mother lived

11:48

in St. Petersburg, Russia. When

11:51

the war came, his father almost got captured. He

11:54

managed to escape and make it back to the border

11:55

line with Russia. But

11:57

St. Lawrence had to go back to the...

11:59

So that's what he did. He got injured

12:02

and then he worked on the farm for the rest of his life until

12:05

his mother gave birth to him. He

12:08

has two daughters. He got married, I think it

12:10

was 1969. This

12:12

is food we're talking about. He had

12:14

a tough life. Okay.

12:19

Okay, Amanda is shaking

12:21

her head. I have the feeling there's a bit

12:23

of a fact check coming.

12:25

Oh my God, this kid,

12:28

whenever he's asked the facts, he gets them

12:30

totally wrong. So I'm not a Putin

12:32

person, so I did have to look up because I thought I'm

12:35

sure he wouldn't be the president of Russia

12:37

or whatever it is if he had all those issues.

12:39

So he said that Putin had trouble at school.

12:42

Putin actually has a PhD in economics,

12:44

speaks several languages, studied law and

12:47

business law. So that's

12:49

not trouble at school. Putin had to

12:51

go through a whole process of getting hired by the KGB.

12:54

Putin actually walked into the KGB director

12:56

at 15 and said, I want to work here. And they said,

12:58

go and get a degree and come back, which

13:01

he did. His

13:03

grandfather served in World War I. No,

13:05

his grandfather was a chef who worked

13:08

for Stalin. His

13:10

father served in World War II. Yes, he did. He

13:12

was Navy then Army and was injured in 42. So

13:14

that was right. Then he said Putin got married in 1969. In 1969,

13:18

Putin was 17. He

13:20

got married in 1983 and he has more

13:22

than two

13:22

daughters. I did think that sounded

13:24

very early in the process.

13:27

It was, yes.

13:28

No, he's not that

13:31

old. So yeah, but the fact that

13:33

he's a dog person, I think that's

13:34

the only thing Putin's got going for him. But

13:37

yeah. For those on

13:39

the audio podcast, I'm sorry. We've

13:43

literally just put a picture up of

13:46

Putin in the snow with two dogs.

13:49

And it looks like a male

13:52

model catalog or something like

13:54

that. How would you describe that photo? He's

13:56

lying down and it does

13:58

look like he's giving both. of them treats

14:00

so they don't bite him, to be honest. Are

14:03

you playing with me? I give you a treat. It's

14:05

like his hands are at both mouths. It

14:08

looks like he's just given them a little treat to be

14:10

nice, right? I

14:11

mean, it's a planned photo. It's

14:13

absolutely a planned photo. But

14:15

he actually takes his dogs with

14:17

him when he travels. And in fact, he

14:20

had a meeting with Angelia Merkel,

14:23

the Chancellor of Germany, and she freaked out

14:25

because these two big dogs come at her. But

14:27

they're like absolute puppy dogs, basically.

14:30

No,

14:30

no, no, no, no. You can't say that.

14:32

And you've got you, me? Can

14:35

I just say something, right? So one

14:37

of those times I decided to try and exercise.

14:41

I went out at like 5.30 in the morning

14:44

and I'm there running around in oval

14:46

and this guy's got two big dogs.

14:49

I don't even know what they were. And they're not on

14:51

the leash. No, sorry, it was one dog. Just

14:54

in my mind's eye, it felt like a pack. But

14:59

this dog came running at me and

15:01

jumped up at me and almost knocked me over. And

15:03

I'm like, I'm not overly a dog person.

15:05

And I'm just like, this is not cool,

15:07

man. You know, like call the dog back,

15:10

put it on the leash. I'm

15:12

trying to go

15:13

for a run. And I'm just like, I

15:16

should

15:17

when I say run, I mean a fast walk. I

15:22

just thought it was wrong. You know, dog people should

15:24

be aware of other people. And so I'm

15:26

on Merkel's side here.

15:28

True, true, true. But but they

15:30

are nice and friendly dogs. And he actually

15:33

has one that was a gift from Japan.

15:35

So he's very, very much a dog person.

15:38

So and the fact that one of them is called Yumi

15:40

and Buffy and Bernie and Pasha.

15:43

So I just think that they're absolutely gorgeous. And that's

15:45

the only thing that I will say nice about

15:47

him. Is he a fan of a certain vampire

15:49

slayer?

15:50

I think so. How

15:53

else would he come up with Buffy? And that just

15:55

sort of blows the mind a bit too. I have to. That's

15:57

why I had to add their names

15:59

in.

15:59

Well, you

16:02

know, Russian leaders don't like

16:04

to let the West know that they

16:06

followed popular culture or anything. That's

16:08

why... Who was it? The

16:12

name has just gone from Gorbachev. Always

16:16

drank Coke, but Coke

16:18

sent it to him uncoloured so

16:20

it could just be the clear liquid so people wouldn't

16:22

know he was having Coke. Google

16:25

that. Is it...

16:27

Now, we've

16:30

gone to a rubber hole. Is it the reason that Santa

16:32

is orange is because the

16:33

Russians didn't... Red and white

16:36

is because it was part of a Coke campaign. The

16:38

first time there was a real depiction

16:40

of Santa Claus was in

16:43

the 1920s or 1930s and it

16:45

was a billboard designed by Coke and they

16:48

gave Santa the Coke colours of

16:50

red and white. So yes. Coca-Cola

16:53

essentially invented our depiction

16:55

of Santa Claus. Traditional

16:56

Santa. Yes, but what I was saying is

16:58

that Santa, there's a reason that Santa is

17:01

orange and it has to do

17:03

with

17:03

Russia. Oh, Santa. I thought you

17:05

said Santa. Santa.

17:07

It's okay, I'll let you go down that one. That's

17:09

fine. I wouldn't go about that in Santa

17:11

if it'd been Christmas crazy. Santa

17:14

is orange and there's a reason it's orange

17:16

and it's German, Russian, something.

17:18

It's because they didn't want to have Coke or

17:21

something, something that I

17:23

can't think of but yeah, there's definitely something

17:25

about Santa. Good story. Yeah, I

17:27

know. Always good to go down a path when you don't know

17:29

the punch line. Oh, shut up. Shut

17:32

up. All right, let's move back

17:34

on track and move to the third day of Dr.

17:36

Scott's interview with Cruz who now

17:38

begins talking about the crimes he

17:40

had committed. I'm

17:43

sorry, I don't want to steal too

17:45

much but I don't want to get arrested or want to be on

17:47

a blacklist. So usually

17:49

what I stole was candy, food, magazines,

17:53

movies, video games, video game controllers.

17:57

Did you ever take any of those things before you were age 15?

18:00

Oh, I tried to. Okay. Tell me what

18:02

anything you took before or stole shoplifted

18:05

before 15. At least. What

18:08

kind of movies would you steal? Anything

18:10

on the market. Anything I found interesting,

18:12

like Predator. Was

18:15

that in the old days when they had DVDs and stuff? I

18:18

don't know if they had that so much anymore. Not anymore.

18:20

Now you can just go on the internet. Have you ever

18:22

sold some DVDs? At what age did you start doing that? 12, 13.

18:28

Okay. And I stole,

18:30

what was it, Box of Donuts once? How

18:33

old were you then? Have

18:37

you ever broken

18:39

into anybody's home? I did. What's

18:42

that? I did. Yeah,

18:45

how about you? Or a car even? Yeah,

18:47

I broke into cars. You have to change,

18:49

try to change, find a piece, have any weapons

18:52

or anything there. Okay. And

18:56

were you less than 15 when you broke into the cars?

19:00

A little bit older, 16. Okay. Shoot

19:02

stuff in the backyard. That's

19:06

what you did. Is it related to? Yeah. How

19:09

so? For entertainment.

19:14

But help me understand. Against

19:18

the law. That was the thrill of

19:20

knowing I was against the law. What was the thrill of

19:22

doing it? Not just shooting a

19:24

gun in the backyard as a pencil. What is it? Yeah.

19:28

And what was wrong about that? No

19:31

one would know. It's

19:36

interesting, isn't it? His insight

19:38

is such a change from the interrogation

19:41

that we watched. I

19:43

will say the lack of emotion in his voice,

19:45

there just is none. There's no emotion.

19:48

Yeah.

19:50

Yeah, that's right. You know, where we've

19:52

gone from that sad

19:55

and upset boy that we

19:57

saw in the interrogation to now being

19:59

so mad. matter of fact. And it's

20:02

a bit like Dennis Rader, who we

20:04

covered a few seasons ago, standing in

20:07

court, say, yeah, I did this, and then

20:08

I raped him, I hung

20:09

her, and then I did this and this and this. He's

20:11

basically talking to somebody, yeah,

20:14

I went into cars, I took a change,

20:16

looked for weapons. Not, oh, I looked for

20:19

headphones and computers. He looked for weapons.

20:21

It's just interesting, smaller things like that. But

20:24

in the middle of all that, he also dobbed in Zach,

20:26

because Zach did that. Really,

20:30

really, your brother is going to

20:32

stand by you and you're dobbing him in

20:34

for crimes that really pale

20:37

in comparison to what he's done. Do

20:39

we know what their relationship was like at this

20:41

point? Had Zach kept true to his

20:43

promise in the interrogation?

20:46

Mostly he did, you know,

20:49

it really affected his own personal

20:52

life, obviously, because when

20:54

you're the brother of a school shooter, it becomes hard.

20:56

But he did stand

20:59

by Nick, but he also stood

21:01

for the other students and everything that he

21:03

had known because he'd gone to the same school.

21:06

Yeah.

21:07

Also

21:09

interesting, Amanda, is that we're not hearing anything

21:11

about the voices, you know.

21:14

He's

21:16

talking a lot about

21:19

the fact that he did these things and

21:21

they're from his perspective. But

21:24

anyway, the next section, I think,

21:27

is probably the most telling of everything he has

21:29

said as he talks about the murders

21:32

as they happened.

21:33

You were describing to me yesterday that

21:36

at some point you decided,

21:38

did you leave the gun

21:40

there? No, I went out. I think

21:43

I tossed a gun on the ground.

21:48

On the third floor or so? I think I stomped on the first one and

21:50

that kick had went up to the

21:52

side. And tell me again, how

21:56

come you stopped at that moment? How

22:03

come? I didn't know kids were in the classroom or not? I

22:05

didn't know. I didn't want to

22:07

do it anymore and I didn't think anyone else

22:09

was in the building. Okay.

22:17

Yesterday you were in school? Yeah, I told you I had to like

22:19

trap no one or anything. The window that I was shooting at. Yeah.

22:22

I was going to ask about the window.

22:24

Could you

22:26

see? I think you told me. Yeah, I could see it. Yeah, I

22:28

could see a football field and then I could see off to the side a little

22:30

bit. Did you see any kids at all or not?

22:33

Yeah, there was like 300-400 yards. I saw 800 yards.

22:35

I can't remember. With

22:38

arage. And did the window ever crack

22:40

at all? Yeah, there was like bullet holes

22:42

in it. Okay. And

22:45

I don't know how big an AL-15's

22:47

where the tip was. It really is the

22:49

bullet aside and not so much the barrel.

22:51

The barrel doesn't have anything to do with it. It's the bullet.

22:54

However big bullets, the hole is going to be the same.

22:57

Okay. And did you ever try

22:59

to fire the bullet hole or what happened there? I

23:01

tried. It didn't work. I tried smashing

23:03

my gun into the window. I tried to break it.

23:05

It didn't work. And

23:07

why were you trying to smash the gun

23:10

in the window? To try to

23:12

shoot at the ground. Okay. That

23:14

didn't work? No.

23:17

On the other side and that was a walk-in and then I

23:19

saw two girls and shot them. Okay.

23:23

No. Okay. Okay.

23:26

And then I shot Peter

23:28

Wayne in the profile. I

23:32

think his name was Peter Williamson. I

23:35

can't remember. I only found out. And

23:39

so the

23:42

first person we shot reminded me that

23:44

that was life and how you did that.

23:47

I

23:50

thought they would scream. Uh-huh. That's

23:53

more like they passed out. Okay. They

23:55

passed out and just, well, they just cannot

23:57

pour out their head. Okay. I

24:00

was really nasty and sad to see. And

24:06

again, I think I asked you this yesterday,

24:08

but... I think I showed mercy to the three

24:10

girls. I was going to walk away,

24:12

but they showed nasty faces and the... I

24:16

went back or something. Explain to me how you showed them

24:18

mercy. I was thinking about shooting

24:20

them, but I didn't want to do it. I was going

24:23

to walk down the hallway. And

24:25

did you induct shooting them? Yeah,

24:27

because they gave me nasty look and they put them

24:29

up front. Okay, what do you mean they gave you nasty look?

24:32

Like... Like

24:34

that. And so you were going to give them mercy? I

24:37

thought they were going to tackle their son. Okay, you were going

24:39

to give them mercy, but then they gave you the nasty look. And then they went

24:41

away. So we're going

24:43

to run away one nasty look. And

24:46

then they just... And when

24:48

I pull up on gun, they just went back and they put

24:50

it into a ball. Like it fell into a

24:52

ball? Yeah. Okay, and then what happens?

24:56

I didn't even aim or anything. I just shot. Okay,

25:00

how did the bullets get under the treated name? I

25:03

aimed downward. Okay. Like

25:06

I had like on a waist and I had... And

25:10

then do you remember who the last

25:12

person you shot was? Perry

25:16

Wayne. Okay. And

25:19

describe to me what happened with... His head blew up like a

25:21

water balloon. And

25:24

then there was a girl you mentioned yesterday that was...

25:27

Yeah, she was on the stairway. She was on the

25:29

stairway. I shot her. She was crawling.

25:31

I shot her in the back. Okay,

25:33

and how come?

25:38

I

25:41

told you I wanted to kill as many people as I could

25:43

in my life. Okay. I

25:46

was little as well. I shot her. Okay, you're

25:49

back. I shot her

25:51

twice. She

25:53

was in the leg. I think when I was shooting

25:56

down the hallway or something. Okay.

25:59

I think my picture

26:02

card in the hallway that I told you about, I think he gave me a nasty

26:04

look. So, shot in the head.

26:07

Peter

26:11

Wayne also gave me a nasty look. Okay.

26:14

Yeah, what kind of look did he give you? Do you remember?

26:18

It's with a finger. Okay. Yeah,

26:21

I think I told him to run. And

26:24

did he? Okay.

26:29

And that's the end of the tape. Amanda,

26:33

certainly hard to listen to as

26:35

Cruz described his reasoning over

26:38

the victims he chose. You know, like he was showing

26:40

two girls some mercy, but then they gave him

26:43

a look he didn't like and

26:45

that mercy was gone. Is that victim

26:48

blaming?

26:50

Absolutely. He is trying

26:52

to reconcile what he's done with

26:54

a reasoning behind why he chose those

26:57

victims. He had no plans.

26:59

He just wanted to go in there and kill

27:01

as many as he could as he just said. But

27:04

he said that the two girls gave him an

27:06

angry look and then he thought that they were going to attack

27:09

him.

27:10

He's got a gun. They don't

27:12

like, you know, for

27:14

someone who is showing a lot of insight,

27:17

it is gone.

27:19

And this is where we need to see it the most is that he

27:21

goes, yeah, I know what I did. He said, I killed

27:24

as many as I could. But then he's saying, oh,

27:26

you know, she tried to crawl away. He

27:28

gave me a look. So I shot him in his head. I

27:31

believe

27:33

that went through his mind. And and

27:35

we often hear about sometimes

27:38

killers do

27:41

have a moment of mercy and how,

27:44

you know, there might be a look that isn't negative

27:46

that just reaches the

27:48

humanity of them and they will turn the gun

27:51

to someone else. I believe everything

27:54

he just said that he was giving

27:56

mercy and then they did a look that he didn't like

27:58

any that mercy was. gone.

28:01

That looked quite a bit of absolute sheer terror.

28:03

Of course. But we know that before he started

28:06

shooting, he came across a kid

28:08

who walked into the stairwell

28:11

where he was preppy and he told him

28:13

to go. Like he said, I told one

28:15

of them to run and then I shot them.

28:18

You know, this,

28:19

I mean,

28:20

it's a very long… I'm not excusing

28:22

anything. What I'm saying is that I do

28:24

believe in his head. He

28:29

believed what he just told that psychiatrist.

28:32

That's what I'm saying. That I do believe

28:34

those were his motivations.

28:37

Yeah, but it completely lacked insight because that's

28:40

not what was happening. Yeah.

28:42

I think we're on the same

28:44

page. We're on the same page. Isn't

28:47

it funny how you and I don't just have a nice

28:49

conversation. It gets a little bit arty.

28:52

Is that the word I'm looking for? I know that. Argy,

28:54

barge, and then we go, hang on. We're both saying

28:56

the same thing. That's pretty typical

28:58

of us. Okay, so Cruz

29:01

pleaded guilty to all of the charges he faced.

29:03

Now, nevertheless, due to the fact the

29:05

prosecution, they were seeking the

29:07

death penalty. So

29:10

legal proceedings had to begin. That

29:12

happened in July 2022. The delay

29:15

mostly being due to COVID. This

29:17

is how ABC News covered the

29:20

story at the time.

29:21

This morning, the fate of the Parkland,

29:23

Florida school shooter is in the hands of

29:26

a jury as the prosecution asks

29:28

for death.

29:28

It's unrelentlessly

29:31

cruel. The appropriate sentence

29:34

for Nicholas Cruz is the death

29:37

penalty.

29:37

Closing arguments were heard yesterday in the

29:39

trial of Nicholas Cruz who pleaded

29:42

guilty to shooting and killing 17 people. 14 students

29:46

and three teachers on Valentine's Day 2018

29:49

at his former school, Marjorie

29:51

Stoneman Douglas High. The prosecutor

29:54

insisting that execution is the only

29:57

appropriate punishment for Cruz, describing

29:59

him as a... blooded killer hunting

30:01

in the hallways for victims with an AR-15.

30:05

Byers, a third shot and

30:07

as she runs he shoots her and suffers

30:09

her spinal cord.

30:11

And reminding the jury of Cruz's

30:13

plan recorded before the

30:15

murders. I'm in next school

30:17

for 2018. The

30:18

defense asking

30:21

instead for a life sentence calling

30:23

Cruz, now 24, broken

30:26

suffering from a brain disorder caused

30:28

by his biological mother's heavy drinking

30:30

while pregnant and claiming he did

30:32

not get the care he needed from his adoptive

30:35

mother. Do we kill brain-damaged,

30:38

mentally ill,

30:39

broken people? The defense

30:42

claiming Cruz took responsibility for his

30:44

actions by pleading guilty. The defense's

30:47

scenic list of lives is the right

30:50

thing to do. The

30:52

jury will be sequestered once deliberations

30:54

start today. All 12 jurors must

30:57

agree in order for Cruz to be sentenced

30:59

to death.

31:00

It's interesting

31:02

isn't it Amanda? There was, it

31:05

was only up for about three seconds but

31:07

it really hit me there where we saw

31:09

the 17 people that he killed.

31:12

I'll show you that again for people on the video feed.

31:14

But when you look at those 17 people,

31:18

jeez, it's

31:20

just one of those things that it brings

31:23

it home the reality of what he

31:25

did. We sit here talking about

31:28

the loss of life and everything but when you see

31:30

those 17 faces, and

31:33

as I said it was two to three seconds of

31:35

that news report but yeah it just really

31:37

hit me.

31:39

Yeah it does hit hard when

31:42

you consider the reality of what's going

31:44

on. Yes we're looking at it with

31:47

hindsight and we're sort of dissecting

31:49

him but this has ruined a lot

31:51

of lives not just the 17 not just the families

31:54

you know that the whole communities and

31:56

you know. We

31:57

just mentioned his brother's

31:59

act.

31:59

Yeah, exactly. So,

32:02

you know, there's so many people that get affected

32:04

by this. But also it's

32:06

interesting in that they're talking about him

32:08

being brain damaged and handicapped and

32:10

he gives a look like, no,

32:12

I'm not like really. I know. I

32:14

was watching that. It was a bit crazy. No,

32:16

it's funny. Amanda said the same thing

32:18

to me as it was going through that he doesn't

32:20

even look like he believes it. It is hard

32:23

to tell though, was that his

32:25

reaction at the time? It's an

32:27

edited clip on a news clip.

32:30

And of course I work in news and

32:32

television. And so my

32:34

first reaction was, is that

32:36

the real reaction to what was being

32:38

said at that exact time? I

32:41

think we need to be careful about

32:43

how we interpret that just

32:45

in case of that. But, you know, the

32:47

other thing is, I guess, how the

32:49

defence team played up a victim card

32:51

because Cruz wasn't loved by his birth mother.

32:54

She was an alcoholic. That's what you're talking about

32:57

in regards to the mentally brain

33:00

damage. But

33:03

that's the tools you use, isn't it, when you're trying to get

33:05

a guy off being put to the death

33:08

penalty? It is.

33:10

But at the same time, they

33:12

could bring a million people into that room

33:15

that had worse childhoods who don't go on

33:17

to become school Jews. And that's the thing

33:19

about all of these people. We

33:23

try and use excuses

33:25

to save them when the victims didn't

33:27

get their chance to be saved. So

33:30

it's kind of a moot

33:34

point, I don't understand that. But

33:36

I think it's interesting that they always play

33:38

the victim card, especially

33:40

for where he's played guilty. But anyway. All

33:42

right.

33:43

Well, the jury came back on October 14,

33:47

2022 with a unanimous decision stating that

33:49

Cruz was eligible for the death penalty for

33:51

the 17 murders, but they could not

33:53

agree to impose it. Again,

33:56

ABC News reports.

33:59

unanimously agree on the death penalty for the

34:02

gunman who killed 17 people in that

34:04

horrific school massacre in Parkland,

34:06

Florida in 2018. Some of the victims' families

34:09

actually walked out of the courtroom. Our

34:11

Gio Benitez is in Florida with the very latest. Gio,

34:13

good morning to you. Hey

34:16

TJ, good morning to you. It's been a long four

34:18

and a half years for these families and now many of

34:20

them are furious that the killer will

34:22

live another day. This

34:25

morning anger and disappointment after

34:27

the jury recommended life in prison for

34:29

Parkland gunman Nicholas Cruz rather

34:32

than the death penalty. My first

34:34

born daughter, a shining star,

34:36

daddy's girl, was taken from

34:38

me. Cruz showing little emotion,

34:41

the families of the 17 victims also

34:44

inside the courtroom listening in disbelief

34:46

as the judge read the verdict, some of them

34:49

walking out. If this was not

34:51

the most perfect death penalty case,

34:54

then

34:55

why do we have the death penalty at all? All 12

34:58

jurors would have had to agree to the death penalty

35:01

but the jury foreman saying three of them

35:03

voted for life in prison.

35:05

I didn't vote that way so I'm not happy with how

35:07

it worked out, but

35:10

everybody has the right to decide for themselves. Prosecutors

35:13

had argued Cruz was a sociopath

35:15

and that the massacre was premeditated.

35:18

It was calculated, it

35:21

was purposeful. But the

35:23

defense said he was mentally ill, suffering

35:25

from fetal alcohol syndrome after

35:28

his mother abused alcohol and drugs

35:30

during her pregnancy.

35:31

He was doomed from the

35:34

wound and in a civilized

35:35

humane society

35:39

do we kill brain

35:41

damaged mentally ill

35:44

broken people? I hope not.

35:47

Did Joaquin get justice today?

35:50

No, he did not. In

35:54

the midst of it all, Joaquin Oliver's

35:56

father on the road working to bring

35:58

awareness to gun violence.

35:59

The day that I lost Joaquin,

36:02

Joaquin did not

36:03

lose me. So I got to

36:05

keep on doing my

36:07

parenting role.

36:08

And the families

36:11

will return to the courtroom on November 1st

36:13

to deliver their victim impact statements. But

36:15

no matter what, the judge is expected to formally

36:18

sentence Cruz to life in prison.

36:22

A couple of interesting points out of that, Amanda.

36:25

We heard that same audio

36:28

again and saw that audio of

36:31

the defense talking about the brain

36:34

issues, the mental brain issues, and

36:37

it was a different reaction to him

36:39

that we saw

36:40

then. Absolutely.

36:41

I was hoping it's not

36:43

that. So very good. That's

36:46

why you have to have caveats

36:48

and things, especially this is why we don't

36:51

use press clips because of that. Because

36:54

they can sensationalize it and alter the

36:56

conversation.

36:57

Well really good point. Two reports

36:59

on the same network, one was from the news, one was

37:01

from Good Morning America, edited

37:04

in different ways, projected a different

37:06

impact. Now that is something maybe we'll

37:08

look at one day is how the media

37:11

manipulate and report. And I'm actually

37:13

not having a go at them. There

37:16

is something in that, especially in these

37:19

kinds of cases. So

37:23

we had that and look, if you do want to see it, because even

37:25

in that clip alone, there was a lot to

37:27

see. So don't forget, we do do a video

37:29

version of this podcast. You can find

37:31

that at patreon.com slash MWMconfessions

37:35

and there's a whole range of tiers, but it's the $25

37:37

tier you need

37:39

to be able to see the video cast. Or

37:42

if you just want to see the video, go

37:44

to newscreen.io, sorry,

37:46

it's mwm.newscreen.io

37:50

and then you can just buy the episode or you can

37:52

subscribe for a monthly fee. Amanda,

37:54

deadlocked at nine jurors to

37:57

three, as one of the parents said, if there was ever

37:59

a perfect... case for the death penalty,

38:02

this was it.

38:04

Yeah,

38:07

well, it certainly was. And, you know, there

38:09

is a lot of anger there from a lot of the

38:11

parents. I've watched most of their

38:14

victim impact statements and we heard a few

38:16

just in that clip as well, you know, but

38:20

it came down to, I believe, this brain

38:22

damaged baby. I think that's where three

38:25

of them said, I can't do it because, you know,

38:27

maybe they know someone who had a

38:29

baby with fetal alcohol syndrome, you

38:32

know, it can cause behavioral issues. And

38:34

I think there was just enough of

38:36

a doubt for them to say,

38:38

I can't, you know, sleep tonight knowing

38:41

I've sent in someone's death. And that is,

38:44

you know, I don't think I could actually sentence someone

38:46

to death. So, you know, I think it

38:48

depends on who that

38:50

jury's selection is. So when it comes

38:53

down to jury selection, they've obviously done a

38:55

good job on both sides for them to actually

38:57

have a comeback deadlocked. So, which,

39:00

you know, it was sort of based both sides

39:02

because we knew he was guilty, he confessed.

39:05

But at the same time, they're looking

39:07

at that baby, they're looking at that brain damage

39:10

issues. You know, he actually has a birth

39:12

sister that has

39:16

grown up okay. She's

39:18

very angry and hurt, but,

39:20

you know, she didn't go on to

39:22

become a school shooter. So, you know,

39:24

there's that side of that coin. But, you

39:28

know, she said that also

39:30

saying that he wasn't loved by his adopted mum,

39:32

but, you know, that doesn't think that.

39:34

So, yeah. And it's also

39:37

interesting that America does a very different

39:39

thing to Australia where you can hear from

39:41

the jurors and they can say, you know,

39:43

we saw a gentleman in there saying, well,

39:46

I voted for the death penalty, but enough

39:48

people didn't. And actually the

39:50

need for unanimous decision has been

39:52

repelled, hasn't it, because of this very case?

39:56

Yes, it has. Good old Governor Ron

39:58

DeSantis.

40:00

Trump, I just, just

40:03

my favourite people. No, no, no, no. DeSantis

40:05

is not in Trump's category. He's a Trump

40:08

wannabe. And

40:10

we'll certainly never

40:13

be President of the United States. Flash forward.

40:16

President DeSantis. That may not

40:18

age well, Robert.

40:23

But yes, now it

40:25

doesn't need to be a unanimous

40:27

decision. It only has to be a majority to

40:30

agree to the death penalty.

40:32

Yeah. So the jury returned their verdict

40:34

that Cruz should be sentenced to life in prison, as

40:36

we mentioned. And he's able to

40:38

actually make a statement. Let's have a listen to what

40:41

he had to say. Is there

40:42

anything else that either side wishes to add

40:45

to the record or, or present

40:47

at this time? I believe

40:49

Mr. Cruz wanted to make a statement to the court. Into

40:51

the, into the present. Yeah, just

40:54

follow up. Okay. No, I could have a mask.

40:56

Sure. I

40:58

am very sorry for what I did and I have to live

41:00

with it every day. And if I

41:03

were to get a second chance, I would do everything in my power to try

41:05

to help others. And I am doing this

41:07

for you. And I do not care if you do not believe

41:09

me. And I love you. And

41:11

I know you don't believe me, but I

41:13

have to live with this every day. And

41:16

it brings me nightmares and I can't live with myself sometimes,

41:18

but I try to push through because I know that's what

41:20

you guys would want me to do. I hate drugs and

41:23

I believe this country would do better. Everyone

41:25

would stop. Smoking marijuana and

41:27

doing all these drugs and causing

41:30

racism and violence out in the streets. I'm

41:32

sorry. And I can't even watch TV anymore.

41:36

And I'm trying my best to maintain

41:38

my composure. And I just want you to know I'm really sorry.

41:42

And I hope you give me

41:43

a chance to

41:46

try to help others. If I believe

41:48

it's your decision to decide where

41:50

I go, whether I live or die, not the

41:53

jury's, I believe it's your decision. I'm sorry.

41:56

Thank you.

41:59

Anything else?

42:06

Sorry, the judge. Okay,

42:08

anything else? Was

42:15

not buying it. I

42:18

mean, it's a It's

42:21

a bloody weird apology, right? Mentions,

42:24

I can't watch tv. I believe there's

42:26

a drug problem in the states. Um

42:30

And and the only moment we

42:32

talked about a lack of emotion all through

42:34

this episode and what's the one bitty

42:36

shows emotion He gets teary when

42:38

it's about his life and the idea

42:41

that he could be put to death That is

42:43

the only time we get emotion

42:47

All fake yeah completely

42:49

no, I don't think it was fake I

42:52

think that emotion was about himself

42:54

being put to death um

42:56

You

42:58

don't agree? Yeah, he's not sorry for what

43:00

what he's not. No,

43:01

no, no, no again. We're on the same page

43:05

Yeah, yeah

43:06

All right before before we bash it out Um,

43:10

which you would win any day of the week Before

43:15

we do that no, no, I think we're on the same

43:17

page But I do believe that moment

43:19

of tear Was absolutely real

43:22

because it was about him and the fear of

43:24

him being killed Not the fear that he

43:26

put into other people and the the The

43:28

remorse he has no remorse for those people.

43:31

The only remorse he has is

43:33

the idea that he's going to be put to death

43:36

the hypocrisy is unbelievable

43:40

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, you know and

43:43

and I love you and um, you

43:45

know, I know you want me to live like What

43:48

the fuck dude like surely they would have had

43:51

something written or told him to say stuff and

43:53

they probably did But what has come

43:55

out is just a jumbled doubled mess about

43:58

pity poor me, you know I

44:00

now have this life that is just totally ruined

44:02

and changed. Everyone in that courtroom's

44:05

life has been ruined and changed.

44:07

And they have to live with that. They have

44:09

to see all of this. And he can't

44:11

watch TV without nightmares now. Boo

44:14

fucking hoo. That's all I've got to say.

44:15

Paul

44:18

I agree. Well,

44:20

you'll notice I talked at the beginning about

44:22

the judge and her reaction. Okay,

44:25

anything else? That is Elizabeth's tree.

44:27

Sheera. Sorry.

44:30

So in our next episode

44:32

of Monsters Who Murder, we're

44:34

going to hear her full sentencing.

44:38

So this happened on November 2,

44:41

2022. So it's almost just a year. It's

44:43

under a year since this happened. We're

44:45

going to hear that full statement. Amanda, it's

44:48

been interesting going from his

44:50

psychology appointment

44:53

here that process into what's

44:55

happened in the courtroom. But we're going to get more courtroom,

44:58

more statements. Next episode is

45:00

truly one to watch. And

45:02

we're doing something a little bit different. We're

45:04

going to play big slabs of this, aren't

45:06

we? We're not cutting it down. It's not going to be one

45:09

or two minute grabs. We are

45:11

going to play like her sentencing,

45:13

I think, does for like 13 minutes. And

45:16

we're going to play all of it. Yeah,

45:19

yeah, I can't

45:20

wait. I think, you know, there's times

45:23

that we go through and we cut out the boring

45:25

bits, but I think this is something that

45:27

we need to hear in its entirety.

45:29

You know, it's a lot of legal

45:32

language, but I think it's interesting to see how

45:34

this now plays out because, you know, Florida

45:37

does it their own way and we're about to see

45:39

how that goes.

45:40

Yes, yes,

45:42

we certainly will. All right, that's the next

45:45

edition of Monsters Who Murder, serial killer confessions

45:47

post-surgery. So

45:50

when I get my voice back and maybe

45:52

I'll speak with a dicker voice, maybe I'll speak

45:54

like this. I will be revealed on

45:57

the next episode of Monsters

45:59

Who Murder. cereal killer confessions

46:01

Amanda Howard thank you so much. Let's

46:04

see what happens.

46:16

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