0:03

You're listening to a Podglamorate

0:05

original. Here's

0:18

an important question we continue to

0:20

encounter as we explore today's story.

0:24

Why do some authors lie?

0:27

The answer may at times relate to

0:29

book sales. All authors

0:31

know that a little embellishment can make a

0:34

good story great. When

0:36

taken too far, however, story

0:38

enhancements can alter history, and

0:41

that can matter a great deal even

0:43

when an author is writing fiction, especially

0:46

when the story enhancements involve

0:48

the author's own life. One

0:51

of the strangest cases involved an author

0:54

I knew and liked very

0:56

much. No one ever

0:58

suspected him of lying. During

1:00

his career, he worked as a professor

1:02

in the MFA program at George Washington

1:05

University. He was also chair

1:07

of the Penn Faulkner Foundation, and that's

1:09

how I met him. We were both

1:11

members of the board. And

1:14

that author was a man named Ache

1:16

Carrillo. I really

1:18

do think he was brilliant. He

1:21

did some really good things for

1:23

Penn Faulkner. He put the focus

1:25

on Latino students in D.C. public

1:27

schools, which had never been done

1:30

before. No other Penn Faulkner

1:32

board member had ever approached that subject

1:34

or been even concerned about those children.

1:38

And that was really something that was

1:40

immediately apparent to me. Of

1:42

course, there were so many esteemed writers I

1:44

was excited to connect with from the start.

1:47

But Ache Carrillo was someone I especially

1:49

looked forward to knowing better. Ache

1:53

Carrillo talked about him with utmost respect.

1:55

And one of the things that happens

1:57

on any board anywhere is

1:59

that some board members do a lot of

2:01

the heavy lifting and some don't. Carrillo

2:04

was known as someone who was right

2:06

in there doing the work. He

2:08

was really serious in how he approached all

2:10

of it. During our meetings,

2:13

many people saw him as

2:15

the foundation's moral center. But

2:18

of course all meetings went completely online

2:20

in 2020 when the COVID-19

2:23

pandemic shut everything down.

2:26

In those early online meetings, there

2:28

was just this enormous sadness about the

2:31

events occurring all around us. And

2:33

even though Carrillo wouldn't bring it up, it

2:36

was apparent by his physical changes that he

2:38

was ill. Although I didn't

2:40

know the details, colleagues shared that he

2:42

had cancer. Then one

2:44

day in April, we board

2:47

members received a message that he

2:49

had died of complications from COVID-19.

2:52

Shortly after, there was another

2:54

message. This one

2:56

even more unexpected. Carrillo's

2:58

obituary had been published and then

3:01

quickly revised by the Washington

3:03

Post. His family had

3:05

told the publication, it was filled with

3:07

lies. Ashe Carrillo had

3:10

been born in Detroit, not

3:12

Havana. He was not

3:14

of Cuban descent and his birth

3:16

name was Herman Glenn Carroll. I

3:19

had no idea. No one

3:22

on the board knew. Not

3:24

even his husband had known

3:26

Carrillo's true background. Welcome

3:37

back to Missing Pages. I'm

3:40

your host literary critic and author

3:42

Beth Ann Patrick. This is the

3:44

podcast where we examine some of

3:46

the most surprising industry shaking controversies in

3:48

the literary world and try to make

3:50

sense of them. This is

3:53

the second episode in a series

3:55

on writing communities and the final

3:57

episode of our second season. Are

4:00

you were telling stories like this one?

4:02

The tendency is to lean into the

4:04

on of it all to try to

4:06

explain how it was that a big

4:09

bad wolf got away with the unthinkable.

4:11

Is fraud ever justified? And if

4:13

not, why do so many people

4:16

who knew our say Carrillo personally

4:18

seem to carry his memory in

4:20

such. A positive light in

4:23

this episode. Will examine

4:25

the difference between career Lows origins

4:27

and the lies he built his

4:29

life into. Then we'll talk

4:31

to to writers who knew him, exploring

4:33

the new names and implication of his

4:36

it says. Chapter

4:41

One. The. Crafting of

4:43

a costume, The term his

4:45

academic fraud but it was also. he

4:47

has sort of. Lives just lie

4:49

with all. Of us who are

4:52

his friends his colleagues is has

4:54

been This was something that the

4:56

wider world believe that he had

4:59

worked hard to get wider world.

5:01

To believe. That's Lisa Page,

5:03

the director of creator. Writing at

5:06

George Washington University. Page.

5:08

Worked with Rc Carrillo for. Many. Years.

5:11

I. Was very sad. And

5:13

that I was very bad. Particularly

5:15

around the issue of Been

5:17

Up and American. Building. A

5:20

literary reputation and said it

5:22

is suing your African American

5:24

heritage did upset me very

5:27

much. Ah to and I

5:29

had many conversations about his

5:31

life in Cuba is relative

5:34

there. In I told him I

5:36

am African American, but I have the Maoists

5:38

very often. Mistaken. For let's

5:40

see that and he said. I

5:42

thought you were. Seems. Like

5:44

this where I found myself busy

5:47

being a lot or conversations a

5:49

love story to tell me a.

5:51

Lot of the lies he tell. When.

5:54

Carrillo is a bit to a

5:56

was published. Questions and disputes rang

5:58

out online echoing a. The betrayal.

6:01

One. Poet who became friends with

6:03

Carrillo at Cornell claimed he played

6:05

with her vulnerable feeling surrounding. Her

6:08

identity. The former department

6:10

head at George Washington University said

6:12

that even if the deception with

6:15

spun charismatic Li that didn't make

6:17

lying admirable, Perillo. A

6:19

Bitch where he said he was a Cuban

6:22

immigrant who'd been raised in the Us after

6:24

his family fled the government as the

6:26

Del Potro. And that was

6:28

what they saw reported in his obituary.

6:31

Which specified that in Nineteen Sixty

6:33

Seven, the late H C. Carrillo

6:35

fled to you, but with his

6:37

father, a physician, his mother. An

6:39

educator and his three siblings.

6:42

By. Way of Spain and Florida A

6:45

wound up in Michigan, where Carrillo

6:47

soon became. A Tory piano

6:49

prodigy. This. Backstory was

6:51

what his partner new of his early

6:53

life and his partner had. Approved. It

6:56

sucks for the obituary. But.

6:58

Then. Perillo Stanley of

7:00

origin found the article. That

7:03

evening. Carrillo Nice Jessica web

7:06

lead read the obituary. As

7:09

the daughter of Rc Carrillo younger

7:11

sister Susan. Jessica. Had

7:13

known him as crazy uncle blown.

7:16

who at one point insisted she called

7:18

him pr. Spanish. For uncle.

7:20

Said. His love for the Spanish language simply

7:22

seem to be part of his quirky. Charm.

7:26

Perilous, Family had seen his first book

7:28

come out and they saw the assortment of

7:30

thoughts heard on his Wikipedia page while he

7:33

was alive. But. When he died,

7:35

they figured a reporter would come to

7:37

them to get the real story on

7:39

The man debut as clan. But

7:42

the facts printed in the obituary. Had

7:44

come from his partner who hadn't

7:46

known Carrillo true origins. Anxious.

7:49

To get the story corrected,

7:51

Jessica left a comment on

7:53

the article claiming it's contents

7:55

were a complete misrepresentation. Of her

7:57

uncle. It with the beginning of and. The

8:00

day no one had been prepared for.

8:02

And. For those who ran and Carrillo

8:04

circles. Emails and texts. Blue

8:07

at lightning speed. When

8:09

Coriolis family came forward to share with

8:11

day remembered of. Their Dear Glenn. It

8:14

became clear that his public name was

8:16

merely the seed of his deceptions. The.

8:19

Truth came out that as a

8:22

Carrillo was a black man from

8:24

Detroit with no Cuban heritage. And

8:26

know when he does family. Was have to been

8:29

to sent. His identity as an

8:31

author was a character he played. At.

8:33

While at first glance some might say

8:35

that makes him a con man who

8:38

built his success on stories of struggles

8:40

he never actually had. It's. Hardly

8:42

that simple. To understand

8:44

how Rc Carrillo came to be.

8:47

We. Need to go back in time. In

8:50

the early nineteen nineties, English speaking

8:52

anthropologists had just begun to publish

8:54

scholarly work on see when folk

8:57

music and dance. Within.

8:59

A decade Afro Cuban art was

9:01

trending for the very first time

9:03

in America's urban Reasons. Chicago.

9:06

Was among them. On. A

9:08

given night. There in Nineteen Ninety Five.

9:10

The city's concert halls would

9:12

both performances by Cuban American

9:15

singer songwriter John Cicada and

9:17

King of Latin Jazz piano

9:19

quintet. That same year

9:21

a thirty five year old black

9:23

man by the name of Herman

9:25

Glenn Carol a role the To

9:27

Paul, a private Catholic University located

9:29

in a neighborhood called Lincoln Park.

9:31

In this episode. I'll be

9:33

referring to Herman as I say, as that's

9:36

how the world came to know him. Or

9:39

his mid thirties he was attending a

9:41

school with close proximity to a booming

9:43

art scene, rich with some of the

9:45

country's. Very first Afro Cuban

9:47

lounges. Warm. Atmospheres

9:49

with cigar smoke, live music

9:51

and dancing in Santa Carrillo

9:53

to navigated the scene in

9:55

the company of his fellow

9:57

classmates. Tiffany. Via Ignasi.

10:00

Early on in their friendship, Tiffany told

10:02

him she wanted to explore her Latin

10:04

roots. To Carrillo,

10:07

their connection felt faded because,

10:09

as he confided in her, he was trying

10:11

to do the same. For

10:14

the next five years, while he studied

10:16

Spanish and English, he frequented the local

10:18

Cuban clubs where the country's

10:20

classical music stylings of Bolero

10:23

and Danson frequently played. He

10:26

kept the company of a Colombian boyfriend

10:28

who taught him how to make aros

10:30

compuyo, and in the summer of 1998, he

10:33

took an introductory Spanish course.

10:36

All of this factored into the writing

10:39

he slowly began to share with professors

10:41

and students in his department. One

10:43

of his works, titled Snow,

10:45

Yellow Food, Brown People, Miami

10:48

Ilos Santos in an Absence

10:50

of History, featured a young

10:52

Cuban-American man whose younger sister rejects her

10:55

Cuban background to fit in with her

10:57

friends. She is relieved

10:59

when she confronts as just black.

11:03

The character initially feels bad about

11:05

his heritage until a priest shows him

11:07

a book on Cuban history, empowering

11:10

him to own it. Around

11:12

the same time he wrote this, Carrillo

11:14

began telling people that he was Cuban. His

11:17

ship from Herman Carroll to Ache

11:19

Carrillo was solidified when he told

11:21

his professor, You know, my

11:24

name was taken from me, my

11:26

heritage, and I'm changing it

11:28

back to Herman Carrillo. He

11:31

shortened Herman to just Ache, the

11:33

Spanish pronunciation of the letter H. It

11:37

was a new racial identity, indented

11:39

under the pretense of a self-acceptance

11:41

that had been a long time

11:43

coming. He shared his truth

11:45

with others in a way that made

11:47

it sound like he was only just

11:49

stepping into himself, and in

11:51

a way, he was. His

11:53

love for Cuban culture had awakened him

11:55

to something real in himself. George

12:00

Washington University first and then later

12:02

worked with him at the Penn

12:04

Faulkner Foundation. Some colleagues

12:07

asked themselves why Carrillo would create

12:09

a new identity. Paige,

12:11

who is a black woman, co-edited

12:14

a book called We Wear the

12:16

Math which is about racial passing.

12:18

She spoke about Ashe Carrillo's story

12:21

in light of that phenomenon. One

12:23

thing you know that didn't happen to

12:26

me in the Midwest and I didn't

12:28

grow up in Detroit, I grew up

12:30

in Chicago but certainly happened to me

12:32

was an awareness of not being very

12:35

special for being black. Who was special?

12:37

A lot of Latinos because many of

12:39

them were being published in the literary

12:41

world and there were African-American

12:44

writers being published but we hadn't

12:46

started with Black Lives Matter yet.

12:48

There wasn't yet boom, boom, boom

12:50

to the publishing industry that you

12:52

know you need to publish these

12:54

stories too. There wasn't that

12:56

pressure and so the African-American

12:58

story was still a pretty

13:01

monolithic story. According

13:04

to researchers Ann Hartness and

13:06

Margot Gutierrez, Latino literature

13:09

in the 1990s

13:11

came into its own finally

13:13

recognized by mainstream publishers as

13:16

legitimate. That's an undeniable

13:18

statement that I can support from my

13:20

own reading experience in those years.

13:23

We saw books like The House on

13:25

Mango Street by Sandra Cisneros, How

13:28

the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents

13:30

by Julia Alvarez and The

13:32

House of the Spirits by Isabel

13:34

Allende become New York Times

13:36

bestsellers. We saw

13:38

Oscar Juelos win a Pulitzer for

13:40

his novel The Mambo Kings Play

13:42

Songs of Love. I've talked to my

13:45

older brother Jose about this and essentially

13:48

we both agreed that we grew up having

13:50

to overcome a feeling of

13:54

I say the term second-classness. And

13:57

Juno Diaz published his first

13:59

short story collection Drown in

14:02

1995 detailing the struggles of

14:04

Dominican immigrants. His

14:06

work incorporates Spanglish stemming from

14:09

his own experience of being

14:11

bilingual. And when I'm writing,

14:13

I kind of have both of them running

14:15

through my head and the one that bullies

14:17

through the most, you know, because English is

14:19

what I write in, but Spanish and English

14:21

are what I think and speak in. And

14:24

so in my head, Spanish will always like

14:26

seize control. It's like they're really angry driver,

14:28

like passenger who like grabs the wheel. So

14:30

anytime I'm writing in English and Spanish is

14:32

like enough. Yeah, but suddenly it just comes

14:34

in. Does

14:39

identification with a group give anyone the

14:41

right to claim a new identity? Three

14:44

decades before Carrillo arrived at

14:46

DePaul, he was growing up

14:49

in Detroit with his two sisters and

14:51

one brother supported by his parents who

14:53

were both public school teachers. He

14:56

witnessed harsh events, including the riots

14:58

of 1967, which started with police

15:00

raided a bar and arrested 85

15:03

African Americans. When

15:05

civilians fought back, protesting the

15:08

unwarranted brutality, 43 were killed,

15:11

33 of whom

15:13

were African American. These

15:16

riots highlighted the extreme segregation that

15:18

was very much a part of

15:20

Detroit's daily life at that time. Carrillo's

15:24

parents weren't separated from it.

15:26

They both supported black businesses

15:28

when shopping. They also

15:30

hung the black liberation flag outside

15:32

of their house. To those

15:34

around him, much of his personhood

15:36

was rooted in his sexual identity.

15:39

He always knew who he was and

15:41

could get heated defending it. When

15:44

harassed for taking ballet and tap

15:46

classes at age eight, he responded

15:48

by beating up his critic. Another

15:51

early habit of his were the characters

15:53

he played. We loved Halloween

15:55

and dressing up. He's an angel.

16:00

That's his sister

16:02

Susan in a clip from the New Yorker

16:04

radio hour. She's reflecting on

16:06

the multiple occasions where her brother's

16:08

stories got out of hand. Once

16:11

when Carrillo's mom went in for parent-teacher

16:13

conferences, an 11th grade instructor

16:16

told her that her son was

16:18

going by the name Marx. He

16:20

used it to sign his papers and

16:22

wouldn't explain why. He also

16:24

told his friends a variety of lies,

16:27

including that his father was famous,

16:29

his sister had been adopted from Asia,

16:32

and that he was helping teach math

16:34

to students when he wasn't. These

16:36

bits of fantasy sprinkled into his

16:38

truth became more prevalent in his

16:40

20s as he got involved in

16:43

a series of romantic relationships. He

16:45

told one partner he had a son with

16:47

a French woman and showed signed greeting cards

16:50

from the child, which were fake. He

16:53

said that he was writing for the New Yorker

16:55

when he, in fact, wasn't. He

16:57

told another partner he had degrees from

17:00

Dartmouth and the University of Chicago. When

17:03

applying for jobs, he told HBO

17:05

he had a bachelor's degree when

17:07

he didn't. They hired

17:09

him as the director of staff development

17:11

at a call center. Though

17:13

he oversaw fewer than 100 employees

17:15

in this role, he would later state that

17:17

he managed 2,000 people. After

17:21

he left that job for reasons that remain

17:23

unknown, he told people he'd

17:25

been working in television in Manhattan. HBO

17:28

is a cable television company, and

17:31

the broadness of Carrillo's claim here

17:33

isn't so much a lie as

17:35

a conveniently worded intimation. But

17:38

the job wasn't in Manhattan. It

17:40

was in Chicago. It seems

17:42

that Ashe Carrillo was trying to wipe

17:44

out significant details of his life by

17:47

replacing them with ones he found

17:49

more interesting and beautiful. But

17:51

it wasn't just the big things he'd lie about.

17:54

A former roommate of Carrillo's recalled that

17:56

he asked her to get more milk

17:58

from the store. By telling her

18:01

he'd had a bowl of cornflakes and they

18:03

were out of milk, even though

18:05

neither of them ever had cornflakes.

18:08

If we subtract the falsehoods, a

18:10

simpler story emerges. Ashe

18:12

Carrillo moved to Chicago in 1984 when he was 24

18:14

years old. He

18:18

had a lover who died of AIDS in 1988. And

18:21

in 1995, following his

18:23

six-year stint working at a call center for

18:26

HBO, he enrolled at DePaul.

18:29

That brings us back to the birth of the

18:31

lie that became him. The

18:33

one in which he was an

18:35

Afro-Cuban immigrant whose family fled

18:38

Fidel Castro in 1967. But

18:42

what happens when the liar gets

18:44

a claim? Hi,

18:49

it's Beth Ann. Are you

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19:43

2. Playing the Part. In

19:46

2000, Ache Carrillo graduated from

19:48

DePaul University and was soon

19:51

admitted to Cornell University for

19:53

its combined MFA-PHD program. His

19:56

Application had included the prose of a

19:58

character who had come. With mind

20:00

one night while he was out

20:02

at Chicago's Cafe Bolero. It. With

20:05

this character that he would revisit every

20:07

Friday night for four years while he

20:09

was out at that cafe, allowing his

20:12

mind to. Wander. He. Was

20:14

solidifying certain aspects. of this

20:16

made up person's identity. Over.

20:18

The next three years he spent

20:20

much time at Cornell pulling from

20:22

that character. Create his first

20:25

book losing My a Spanish

20:27

but he also wrote received

20:29

awards for his short stories.

20:31

I. Read losing my Spanish and

20:33

I did appreciate it. I also

20:36

read some of his short stories,

20:38

which. I actually liked more. I

20:40

thought that. They were more

20:42

concentrated, more structured, made a

20:45

greater impact more literary to

20:47

me, and I also really

20:49

enjoyed his sort of feelings

20:52

about other writers. And activism

20:54

around particularly Latino writers and

20:57

other writers of color. And

21:00

what he exploring similar themes the

21:02

know short stories. Like. The

21:04

Afro Cuban background at the center of

21:06

that work as well. We'll. We'll he

21:08

wrote about was migrants from

21:10

Cuba. He wrote about alienation.

21:12

He he wrote a about

21:14

being queer as well. He

21:16

was very sort of fluid

21:18

in terms of this Friday

21:20

in that sense of been

21:22

attached to a country and

21:24

yet detached from a country,

21:26

and his sort of sense

21:28

of the importance of history

21:31

and culture which I admire

21:33

deeply. To be clear, to

21:35

reload Afro Cuban identity. Remains central

21:37

to his writing from this point forward.

21:39

It it also become apparent his

21:41

wardrobe choices and self expression. He

21:44

wore bill a week while Bear asserts

21:46

he spoke with a slight accent and

21:48

he drew. People in with his sensory.

21:50

references to his imagined adopted

21:52

culture, Louis. By yard

21:55

a. Novelist who met Carrillo later

21:57

in his life notice the fullness

21:59

of Perillo com strong performance. His.

22:01

Life is a love letter, resorts to

22:03

the Cuban people to the Cuban culture

22:06

to Cuban history for sure. He clearly

22:08

and market I think that's why he

22:10

took it on and the way they

22:12

did something amiss mythological about in taking

22:14

on that a close the skin of

22:17

something someone you admire making around. his

22:19

emails are full of Spanish citations. He

22:21

sprinkled everything he wrote with some sort

22:24

of Spanish to him rather and again

22:26

it it left me feeling on this

22:28

is what what a bilingual writer will

22:31

do is his native language will just

22:33

sprinkle it's way find it's way through

22:35

and knowing now you do it's I

22:37

keep was performing that he was not

22:40

willing to ever dropped. The. Masks.

22:43

He wanted everyone to. Know.

22:45

It at every moment is alleged

22:47

history. Right there it seems

22:49

to be a devotional act involved in

22:52

making it such a total part of

22:54

his identity that he's performing it even

22:56

in small moments when it would seem

22:59

painstaking or even arbitrary to include at.

23:01

I. Love and Cuban food to pathetic. Wouldn't

23:04

try to vast myself as given their

23:06

lot of cultures that I that am

23:08

very responsive to but I'm also purchased

23:10

as a white to sooner guy. I'm.

23:12

Not going to pretend that that is

23:15

my room for that was tradition. My

23:17

lower. So. Yeah, it's

23:19

It's really tricky. It's really complicated because in at

23:21

his case race enters into it as well. Perilous

23:25

choice to perform a Cuban

23:28

background really is complicated. Especially.

23:30

When we consider that he went through

23:32

his own experience, As a marginalized

23:34

person, With out wearing be

23:37

added past him he designed for his.

23:40

And to say whether he ever cope

23:42

with any ethical qualms about the At.

23:45

The. Performance only grew more.

23:47

Necessary after he published his

23:49

first novel. The. Sigma is Spanish

23:51

in two thousand and four. That.

23:54

First year as a Carrillo but captured

23:56

the hearts and minds of readers. Finding.

23:58

Residents with many. Latin American

24:00

writers and immigrants. Among

24:03

the glowing reviews were those from

24:05

Mayra Montero, Eduardo Galliano,

24:07

and Juno Diaz, all successful

24:10

authors in their own right.

24:13

Diaz said, Mr. Carrillo's

24:15

talents are formidable, his

24:17

lyricism pitch perfect, and

24:19

his compassion limitless. But

24:21

that's not to say the Spanish itself was

24:24

totally right. His mentor

24:26

Elena Maria Villanomantes recalled

24:28

that there was a clumsiness to it. In

24:31

her mind, that was just par for

24:33

the course, as someone who had adapted

24:35

to an English speaking country so early

24:37

in their life. It's easy to

24:39

see how Carrillo's Spanish errors would have

24:41

gone overlooked. People weren't scanning

24:44

his book for accuracy. They

24:46

were scanning it for feeling. And

24:48

the emotions it captured did contain

24:51

something powerful. Maybe those

24:53

were the moments when Carrillo was letting

24:55

a bit of his own truth shine

24:57

through. The full truth,

24:59

however, from this point forward, had

25:02

become a no fly zone for Carrillo.

25:05

Suddenly, he wasn't just performing

25:07

to his professors and colleagues. Having

25:09

established himself in the literary world

25:11

as an Afro Cuban immigrant, there

25:14

was no going back. The

25:16

only people who did know who he

25:18

really was now were the exes of

25:20

his past, whom he didn't keep up

25:22

with, and his family members who did

25:25

receive a copy of his book. When

25:27

looking at the dedication, his siblings were

25:30

surprised to see that Carrillo had adjusted

25:32

each of their names to sound more

25:34

Cuban. Susan was changed

25:36

to Susanna, Christopher to

25:39

Cristobal, Maria, stayed

25:41

Maria. While they understood that

25:43

Ache had built himself into an

25:45

Afro Cuban identity, they kept

25:47

their distance from media reports about

25:49

his professional life. You Know,

25:51

I Guess not that many people. or

25:53

maybe they do, you know, know love

25:56

like our family, you know, people are

25:58

like, didn't you ask? And. I

26:00

don't know why. leads yes we

26:02

use except song for who they

26:05

are. You know me and you

26:07

love them anyway. See now. In.

26:10

Their minds the media didn't have all

26:12

the facts and the whole character performance.

26:14

Was. Just Glenn being Duan, It.

26:17

Wouldn't make them stop. Loving him. But.

26:19

After the book came out, Carrillo

26:21

story became even more public. And

26:24

his career leveled up with his

26:26

new found notoriety. Just. Three

26:28

years after his first, but came out

26:30

in two thousand and seven, he was hired

26:32

to be an assistant professor of English.

26:34

At George Washington University. Here's a

26:37

rare interview clip where he actually

26:39

talks about why he took the

26:41

job. So. How long have

26:43

you been teaching writing? I think

26:45

that's not all writers are are

26:47

teachers. How does how does that

26:49

fit? Answer what you do? Well,

26:51

you know it's one of the

26:53

season one. Have a conversation or

26:55

discussion with people and I before

26:57

I saw I have to watch

26:59

television and I wanted to have

27:01

conversations with adult books about writing

27:03

and I thought well probably the

27:05

easiest way would have enough to

27:07

go back to school and a

27:09

train so that I. Talked

27:12

to adults, During.

27:15

His time at George Washington University,

27:17

he did talk to adults about

27:19

books. On. A lot of them

27:21

were young adults majoring in English students

27:23

of his. We're still looking for. A

27:25

sign that creative writing was the path they

27:28

were meant to take. Some. Former

27:30

student say that Carrillo gave them

27:32

that affirmation. Like. Paula be here.

27:35

Who. Also says he pushed her to be a

27:37

better writer. Quite. A few other

27:39

budding. Writers experience this in.

27:41

His classes. They've. Shared that

27:43

he would give out his cell phone number on

27:45

the first day of class. Letting. Them

27:48

know they could call him for anything,

27:50

even if they were tripping on acid

27:52

at three am. He

27:54

said gifts to students on a case in

27:56

with words of encouragement. He wrote

27:58

countless letters of rec monday sense

28:01

and was always tracking which masters

28:03

programs his students had been admitted

28:05

to. He. Was also particularly

28:07

impactful, the students grappling with

28:09

their cultural identities. He

28:11

brought in see to those students

28:14

who were struggling with English not

28:16

been their first language for and

28:18

stance for that. They didn't have

28:21

any confidence in that their storytelling.

28:23

Ability in a as a

28:25

was able to vanish that

28:28

to encourage them to push

28:30

them. I mean, it's meant to them.

28:32

He really did all that. I

28:36

want to pause here to reflect on

28:38

the test of character it takes to

28:40

connect with and support. Students at this

28:42

level. Have. Been cheating in the

28:44

Literature department of American Universities College of

28:47

Arts and Sciences. And I

28:49

know first hand how vital that

28:51

professor student relationship can be for

28:53

someone still finding their way and

28:55

writing. Grad. Students Nam as

28:57

A programs are not only. Really looking

29:00

to their professors as instructors. But

29:02

also as professional role models.

29:05

And. I will say first and foremost

29:07

that I'm pretty sure many of

29:09

Carrillo students revered him completely. I

29:12

think is teaching his. Presence in

29:14

person was authentic regardless of

29:16

the identity he was quote

29:18

performing and quote. You.

29:20

Can't really say that trying to connection with

29:23

students. At the same time,

29:25

there were people in the program

29:27

who seem to notice Carrillo is

29:29

larger than life. Stories were less

29:31

than transparent. Did. You ever noticed when

29:33

he would lie. He told me once that

29:36

he was married to the heiress of the

29:38

diamond not fortune and there was just outlandish

29:40

enough at the time. That either.

29:42

Oh okay, mean nobody would make that

29:44

up, right? That's easily taxes. I didn't

29:46

even bother checking whether. Okay, well. nobody's

29:48

say that must really happen, right? You

29:51

know he thinks he be afraid of people

29:53

fact checking him on those things. It's

29:56

as though insane. something so far

29:58

fetched with such conviction. It

30:00

was just easier to believe him than to

30:02

not. I am wondering though,

30:04

what did it look like in moments when

30:07

people were noticing that Ache was lying

30:09

about something? I do remember a colleague

30:11

of mine and I won't name him,

30:14

but a conversation with him some years back

30:16

where he said, you know, you can't

30:18

believe a word that comes out of Ache's

30:20

mouth. So I think he did

30:22

have a reputation for, you know, being

30:25

fanciful, maybe fabricating some things here and there.

30:27

But I don't know if anybody who questioned

30:29

the actual birth story, the whole growing up

30:31

story, there were other elements, the diamond nut

30:34

era part that maybe people might have questioned.

30:37

It's possible colleagues of Carrillo's

30:39

called him out. If they did, no one

30:42

knew about it. And for six

30:45

years, Ache Carrillo's life as an

30:47

assistant professor at George Washington seemed

30:49

full of positive relationships and pivotal

30:51

teaching lessons. But

30:54

in 2013, George Washington

30:56

University did not renew his contract.

30:59

They cited his lack of publications.

31:02

Though he claimed he was working on a

31:05

second book throughout his time there, he'd released

31:07

only a handful of short stories. It

31:09

occurs to me that it's because

31:12

his life was so fictional that

31:15

all of the energy that might have gone into

31:17

actually writing fiction went into sustaining

31:20

the fiction of his day-to-day existence. Because

31:23

that's all I can think about is how

31:25

exhausting it would have been to be Ache

31:27

Carrillo, to be putting this person out into

31:29

the world at all times. I

31:31

would have found it exhausting. But maybe it just became

31:33

so second nature to him that he just rolled with

31:35

it. I don't know. But he certainly didn't

31:38

disseminate a lot of work in the last

31:40

15 years of his life. After

31:44

George Washington, Carrillo did not go

31:46

back to academia. Instead, he

31:48

got married to a Dutch-born beekeeper in

31:51

2015. A

31:53

statement that almost feels like one of

31:55

Carrillo's fibs. But it isn't. The

31:58

next year, he secured a Board Public at

32:00

the Pen Faulkner. Foundation Where we

32:03

that. He. Was tasked with

32:05

organizing the judging process for the annual

32:07

Pen Faulkner. Award. Before. Long.

32:09

Carrillo had become chair of the foundation,

32:12

a prestigious role that came with it's

32:14

fair share of work. And he did

32:16

all of it. And. Though his background

32:18

with less than transparent, I found

32:20

myself sad that he wasn't able to

32:23

continue the work and I wasn't the

32:25

only one who felt that way. Chapter.

32:33

Three. Remembering. Both.

32:36

Louis. By Art wrote a debut

32:39

play called Savoy Again. About

32:41

a writer of his loved ones must come to

32:43

terms. With his lies in the aftermath of

32:45

his death. Is so frustrating that is not

32:47

around for us to second battle. Hell with it. But.

32:49

Was going on there? And that really is

32:52

the seed the started this whole play. The.

32:54

Wanting to ask the questions.

32:57

wondering. Why he did it. What?

32:59

Do you find most compelling?

33:01

About the story, obviously every writer

33:03

brings some element of his life

33:05

in Sioux fiction. I think with

33:07

Archie that was he brought the

33:09

fiction them back into his own

33:11

lives and then became a cross

33:13

fertilization process. That endless

33:16

loop of. Victimizing.

33:18

That said, showed no signs of bending and

33:20

must. The writers I know are pretty sensible

33:22

folks. We know where to draw the line,

33:24

you know, and we may still make things

33:27

up at sort of George Santos is, so

33:29

I don't think it's endemic to being a

33:31

writer. If anything else, You. Are

33:33

clearers. I think in some cases about

33:35

where that line is where you crossed

33:37

it. I will use people from my

33:39

own life, but as soon as I

33:41

get them on the page, they're already

33:44

been transformed simply by being put in

33:46

the act sixty. But then I don't

33:48

go back into the world and think

33:50

of those people as real Ip. but

33:52

in terms of what I just converted

33:54

them to. The notion

33:56

that Thrilla believes his own lives so

33:58

much that they became the. That would

34:00

give the as reality does raise questions

34:02

about his morals and his mental health.

34:05

But. As someone who copes with mental illness,

34:08

I have to admit that his masking. In

34:10

a way to make. Sense to me because

34:12

it's something I did myself for years.

34:15

I tried to convince everyone around

34:17

me that I easily cope with

34:19

my responsibilities. even while it was

34:21

difficult, To do anything. It's.

34:23

A different story with Asha Carrillo

34:25

because of the cultural and racial

34:27

elements, but I have to imagine

34:30

we all sort of build ourselves

34:32

into a heightened version of our

34:34

South hobby. It to a lesser

34:36

degree that Carrillo. And if

34:38

the performance of that better version winds

34:40

up paving the way. For other

34:42

writers for marginalized backgrounds. And.

34:45

Is rooted in something honest

34:47

like Pirillo struggle with his

34:49

racial identity or his belt

34:51

sense of inadequacy. I.

34:53

Do wonder if perhaps the criticisms

34:56

came to quit too fast here

34:58

with a man trying to play

35:00

himself. Out of how small he felt,

35:03

We. Were trying to put a label on

35:05

someone? Who. Contains both the

35:07

performance and the performer. We

35:10

were trying to put a label

35:12

on someone who poignantly understood that

35:14

truly good fiction. Comes from someplace

35:17

real. The. Last line and.

35:19

Carrillo Novel: losing my a Spanish

35:21

May a concessional of it's own.

35:24

It reads as follows: Petro.

35:27

That's the funny thing about time and

35:29

saying something said your race because the

35:31

exact moment I said it was the

35:33

same moment that it began to be

35:35

untrue. Until

35:37

you give voice to ally, It's not

35:39

a lie. Until. You choose

35:41

to change your identity. You're not

35:43

a liar. I

35:46

say Carrillo lived during a time

35:48

when his sexual identity seem difficult to

35:50

him. Especially. His identity

35:52

as a gay man. To. Him

35:55

living a lie felt easier

35:57

than living his truth. Things.

36:00

Changed and the decade since I say

36:02

Carrillo. Changed his identity, Have

36:05

they changed enough? Know. But

36:08

perhaps they have changed just enough

36:10

that another young man from Detroit

36:13

grappling with racism and homophobia. Might.

36:15

Choose to write about. Those struggles instead

36:17

of creating a new identity out

36:20

of whole cloth. Will

36:22

never know if I carrillo. Regretted

36:24

the lies he told and the choices

36:26

he made. But. We also

36:28

know that his choices resulted in a

36:30

very fine novel and some years of

36:33

exploit teaching as well as colleagues who

36:35

held. In high esteem. Just.

36:37

as Carrillo did in his ex and and

36:39

as all fiction. Writers do in their

36:41

work. We. Can imagine a different

36:44

ending. For a person who's

36:46

storytelling abilities took over his

36:48

entire life, Rest.

36:52

In Peace. Herman. Glenn

36:54

Carol. Rest.

36:57

In Peace. I say

36:59

see Carrillo. This

37:07

is the final episode of Season

37:09

two of Missing Pages. Thank.

37:11

You for listening and sharing and

37:14

being a part of these stories.

37:16

Will. See you all again sometime soon!

37:19

Keep an eye. Out on this

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feed. Missing

37:23

Pages is a pod clamored original

37:25

produce mixed and mastered by Chris

37:27

Funny Yellow with additional production in

37:29

editing by Caitlin. Facility. This

37:32

episode was produced by Claire

37:35

Mcinerney. This episode was written

37:37

by Lawrence A While checking

37:39

the Spaceman Marketing by Jody

37:42

Deutsche Madison, Richard Morgan. Swift,

37:44

Vanessa all men and Annabella Pain.

37:47

Up Art by Tom Grillo.

37:49

Produced in hosted by Mean Best and

37:51

Patrick. Original music composed

37:54

and performed by Hosam Acid

37:56

July. He additional music provided

37:58

by Epidemic Sound. Executive

38:00

produced by Jeff Umbrella and The Part

38:02

la Mer It. Special. Thanks

38:05

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38:07

he'll eat Lisa Page and Louis.

38:09

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