0:01

You You

0:32

Welcome back to missing I'm Tim here today

0:34

with Lance Lance. How are you today? I'm

0:37

doing great today, Tim I hope all listeners out there are

0:39

doing great as well This

0:41

conversation that we have is

0:43

one that stems from this

0:45

viral story that was

0:48

in the public zeitgeist

0:50

in 2020

0:53

and we're so fortunate to have such a

0:55

talented Professional filmmaker

0:58

taking the helm of the

1:00

story and talking to us about it.

1:02

But Tim, how are you? I'm doing

1:04

great Yeah, very excited to introduce our

1:06

conversation with director Patricia

1:08

e Gillespie and

1:10

she is a big deal in

1:12

documentary filmmaking and made this documentary

1:14

this new documentary called they called

1:16

him Mostly harmless and

1:19

it's on max or you know formally

1:21

known as HBO And

1:24

this is a story that I feel

1:26

like we've spoken about on these airwaves

1:29

Possibly with the middleman's of author

1:31

him labs who are

1:33

featured in this documentary They

1:36

called him mostly harmless. So it's about

1:38

a guy who was a hiker

1:40

who was found deceased in 2018

1:44

in the Florida wilderness and He

1:48

was known to hikers on the

1:50

trails as mostly harmless So

1:53

that's kind of the starting point for this

1:55

documentary There's a lot

1:57

of time spent trying to identify this

1:59

person In the documentary,

2:01

a lot of that is retold

2:03

through conversations with these hikers, but

2:06

also the internet got involved, Lance.

2:09

So a lot of digital sleuths

2:11

got involved in trying to identify

2:13

this fella, and eventually it worked.

2:16

So I don't want to tell you

2:18

too much here. I want to play

2:20

our interview with Patricia, because it's really

2:23

an interesting story, and you should definitely

2:25

check out the documentary. If you're

2:27

a fan of this show and if you're a fan of the true crime

2:29

genre, this is something that's going to be right

2:31

in your wheelhouse, because like you said,

2:33

it does involve author room, it involves

2:35

citizen sleuthing, and it involves an incredible

2:38

mystery that the internet – and this

2:40

is something that Patricia really hones in

2:42

on – the internet was instrumental in

2:45

uncovering some of the details about

2:48

this person who was known as mostly

2:51

harmless on the trails, and

2:53

that becomes just as much a

2:55

part of the story, his story, as

2:57

his identity. So fascinating stuff, really

3:00

great work from Patricia. And

3:02

Tim, you said that Patricia was a big

3:04

deal in the documentary filmmaking world, while people

3:06

should check out her other work. You can

3:09

see what she's done just on IMDB, really

3:11

great stuff. Okay, we're going to play the

3:13

interview in just a moment, but before we

3:15

do, we've got to tell you about Missing

3:18

Premium. It is now available on Apple Podcasts,

3:20

so you can subscribe to Missing Premium right

3:22

there in your podcast app. But if you're

3:25

not an Apple user, you can go to

3:27

missing.supportingcast.fm and sign up for the same product

3:29

there. It's $4.99 a month. You

3:32

get all ad-free listening, early releases,

3:34

and our bonus show, which everybody

3:36

loves. And this is bundled with

3:39

Crawl Space, which is another one

3:41

of our podcasts that people like.

3:44

All right, we're going to break for commercial, and we'll

3:46

be right back with the great Patricia Gillespie. This

3:53

episode is brought to you by Shopify. Forget

3:56

The frustration of picking commerce platforms when

3:58

you switch your business to. Stop Hi

4:00

Fi global commerce platform that supercharge

4:02

as you're selling where ever you

4:05

sell with Shopify. Kill Harness the

4:07

same intuitive features, trusted apps, and

4:09

powerful analytics used by the world's

4:11

leading brands. Sign up today for

4:14

your one dollar per month trial

4:16

period at shopify.com/ Tech all

4:18

lower case that shopify.com seems

4:20

to. This

4:24

episode is brought to you by his

4:26

first three room all electric as you

4:28

be the case. even with available all

4:31

wheel drive and seating for up to

4:33

seven adults, Zero sixty speed drills, you

4:35

wings and available looms beats that unwilling

4:38

to the next visit keya.com/eighty Nine to

4:40

learn more. Ask your kiddies for availability

4:42

know system no matter how advanced country

4:45

and safe for all driver error and

4:47

or driving conditions on, we drive safely.

5:01

Welcome. To the podcast Patricia

5:03

Gillespie, how are you today?

5:06

I'm great! Thank you so much for having me! I.

5:09

Thank you so much for joining us. With

5:12

this great project that is about to

5:14

be released, definitely w going to talk

5:16

about that but to soon a little

5:18

bit of research on you. Are.

5:20

You have quite a resume, you

5:22

have a fantastic resume, and. Personally,

5:25

Speaking, the one that really stood out to me

5:27

was your work on Blue Ruin. So I don't

5:29

want to go down that road. but I started

5:31

to work on Blue Ruin. One of the greatest

5:34

movies ever made. so well been there but can

5:36

you introduce yourself to the audience? Yeah that

5:38

so what a blessing of have it was.

5:40

A kid on there with the script supervisor.

5:42

ah. I'm Patricia got the

5:45

amp and and it's am a

5:47

documentary filmmaker. I guess it happened

5:49

am so that it's my son

5:51

has how I introduced myself I

5:53

guess. How did how did it happen

5:55

though? Because you sound like you're surprised it

5:58

happen. You know that won awards? I

6:01

studied filmmaking and I was really

6:03

lucky to get to go to

6:05

NYU thanks to some generous help

6:07

from NYU. And

6:09

I had initially begun studying as

6:11

a narrative filmmaker. Yeah, and then

6:13

I just got sucked into life

6:16

and documentary. Blue Room, I think,

6:18

was actually the last narrative film

6:21

that I worked on. And Jeremy is such a

6:23

talent. He's gone on to have the director, Jeremy

6:25

Salmea, and he's gone on to have his Titanic

6:27

career. But at the time, he was

6:30

mostly shooting commercials and he had placed

6:32

this huge bet on himself and he

6:34

very kindly had me along.

6:36

And I loved that

6:38

experience, but I also really

6:41

craved just connecting with ordinary

6:43

people. And

6:45

film people were carneys. We're

6:47

not normal. And that

6:50

speaks ill of carneys, which I don't mean

6:52

to do. But we're a bunch of weirdos.

6:55

And I really wanted to

6:58

get out into the world and documentary

7:00

filmmaking was the closest to being a

7:03

cowgirl or an adventurer that I could get in

7:05

the modern context. And I just started

7:07

making documentary films and I loved it. I love

7:09

people and so I love

7:12

getting the help to tell their stories.

7:14

And I'm very, very lucky it worked out

7:16

for me. And we're going

7:18

to issue the formal apology to our

7:20

large, carney audience base. We're

7:22

sorry. This was not an insult. It was just

7:24

a turn of phrase. So

7:27

what was your first documentary? Well, you

7:29

know, I started when I

7:31

was in college, I was an assistant

7:33

to a filmmaker named Judith

7:35

Hellfan. And I also worked for a filmmaker

7:37

named Jim Brown. And Jim sort of made

7:39

these folk music documentaries. And Judith was making

7:41

a lot of personal films, films about her

7:43

life. And so I got to observe them.

7:46

And, you know, documentary

7:48

assistantships are a funny thing because

7:50

they morph into suddenly you're doing

7:52

a lot more than managing the

7:54

calendar. Or doing receipts

7:56

and you start to cut

7:58

producing teeth. And

8:00

so my first real big gig, I

8:03

guess, was as a producer, sort

8:06

of, and a bunch of other

8:08

things on a independent film called Unrest,

8:10

which was directed by

8:12

a woman named Jen Brea, who had a

8:15

disease called ME-CFS, which is a pretty

8:18

serious auto, very serious

8:20

autoimmune condition that 17 million people have,

8:22

but the patient population is primarily female, and at

8:24

the time, the medical community said it was all

8:27

in your head. And so, went sort

8:29

of all over the world making a film about

8:31

that, and it premiered at Sundance, and my

8:34

career was off, and I did a bunch of other

8:36

things. I made my first TV show when I was

8:38

about 26 for Vice, and

8:43

I definitely learned a

8:45

lot there, and that was something I'd started as an

8:48

independent film, because I got to a point where I

8:50

realized no one was gonna hire me to direct anything.

8:52

I wasn't gonna get promoted to director. I was gonna

8:54

have to greenlight myself. So, I did

8:57

there and then ended up partnering

8:59

with Vice and made that show,

9:01

and it did real well. And

9:04

I've just been lucky to get to keep working

9:06

in this crazy world since then. Okay,

9:08

yeah, let's talk about that show. This is The

9:10

Devil You Know, correct? Yeah. Right,

9:13

right. If you're comfortable,

9:15

just maybe unpacking that a little bit, how did you

9:17

make the connection with Vice, and what was the process

9:19

to get you working

9:22

with them on that level? Yeah,

9:24

so I started

9:27

that really just with my friend,

9:31

Kyle Porter, and his grandma's Toyota

9:33

Camry that she willed to him, and we were

9:36

just like, we read this crazy story, and I

9:38

talked to some people on Facebook, let's go. And

9:41

then for two years, Kyle

9:43

and I were really just sort of schlepping

9:45

that uphill by ourselves, and we were trying

9:47

to get grants and that sort of thing

9:50

that independent films do a lot, which had

9:52

been hugely successful on Unrest, another film called

9:54

Whose Streets, which was a film I worked

9:56

on as a producer, a line producer, but

9:59

I just couldn't. garnered that kind of support

10:01

for that film. And I think some of

10:03

it had to do with it being a

10:05

true crime story and some ideas around true

10:07

crime and whatever. But

10:11

I had applied to something called the Hot

10:13

Docs Forum, which is a

10:15

pitch forum. And it's almost like an untelevised

10:17

game show. They pick a couple projects, and

10:20

they put you in this room with all

10:22

these decision makers and commissioning editors at this

10:24

table with you, lights on you. And

10:26

you have 10 minutes to pitch your story. And

10:29

we were very lucky to be selected

10:31

for that and super well-supported to

10:34

help craft our pitch.

10:36

And Vice was

10:38

at the table, and they really

10:41

liked it. So they picked

10:43

that up. And

10:45

two weeks before

10:48

that all was supposed to start,

10:51

I got shipped up to Canada. They were just

10:54

like, we actually have to make this in Canada

10:56

and send New York for the tax credit. I

10:58

gave my dog a couple Xanax, and we got

11:00

on a plane. I moved to Canada for eight

11:02

months. And yeah, it was a really wild

11:04

ride. It was a interesting

11:06

place to work. But

11:10

we got her done.

11:12

And I'm proud that we were able to,

11:15

one of the great things about that project is we

11:17

were able to explore, I think, something deeper than

11:19

the crime itself. We were able to explore cycles

11:21

of violence in the American working class. We

11:24

were able to explore the opioid crisis. And

11:26

a lot of my work, maybe

11:29

True Crime, which is

11:31

what a lot of it's been labeled as, is

11:33

the setting. But

11:35

I think I'm often trying to explore

11:37

a deeper issue inside those films.

11:40

And then right at the tail end of that, I

11:43

started developing my most

11:45

recent film, other than

11:47

this one, The Fire That

11:49

Tooker, which is about a domestic

11:52

violence survivor who thought

11:55

to change the law after a boyfriend lit her

11:57

on fire and only got 11 years for the

11:59

crime. So I

12:01

just started driving from Toronto to

12:03

Ohio on my off days to

12:05

film that. And five years

12:07

later that came to be and, you know,

12:10

I've been obviously working on other

12:12

stuff in the meantime, but

12:15

that's sort of, yeah, it's weird how things

12:17

come together. I wish there was a straightforward,

12:19

when young filmmakers ask me this, I'm always like, I wish

12:21

there was a straightforward path I could give you, but it's

12:23

sort of just grabbing what you can. And

12:26

how did you hear about the

12:28

story of Mostly Harmless? Yeah.

12:30

So funny, going back to the devil, you

12:32

know, I had briefly been at a company

12:34

called, I was starting to work with a

12:36

company called Warrior Poets, which just

12:40

shut down before

12:42

we got to make the film. Or I can't

12:44

remember how that worked out or Vice took another house. I

12:46

can't remember. Anyway, there was a

12:49

young executive there named Ethan Goldman

12:52

who went on, you know, 10 years

12:54

later to found his own company called

12:56

Anchor Entertainment. And Ethan and I had

12:58

always, we really got on and we

13:00

always really wanted to work on something

13:02

together. And we

13:05

just had all these near misses of

13:07

getting to work together, things just, the

13:09

star is not quite aligning, the schedule is not quite aligning.

13:12

And then he called

13:14

me with this project, which he had already, the case

13:16

had already ended. He'd already set it up at Max,

13:19

or what is now Max. And yeah, he asked if I

13:22

wanted to direct it. And I read the story and my

13:24

jaw was on the floor and I absolutely

13:26

did want to direct it. Because not just because

13:28

of a mystery, but because I think if the

13:30

story's potential to help us

13:33

examine these weird lives we're

13:35

leading online and their intersection where they're realized. And,

13:37

you know, I think I just thought the story

13:39

had a lot to say about what it means

13:41

to live in the digital age. Yeah.

13:44

And had you heard of this prior to that? I

13:46

had heard of it in that, you know,

13:49

it was it was in my periphery. I

13:51

think I'd read the first Wired article. You

13:54

know, I really love my job. So

13:56

I work a lot and I am not super

13:58

online, but I had I'd heard. about the story

14:00

but I'm not sure I don't

14:02

think I had heard about the solve until

14:06

Ethan called and once I read

14:08

that that article Nick Thompson

14:10

did I was just enraptured and

14:13

fascinated and found it

14:15

so complex and multilayered and Doug

14:17

Doug happily right in. Very

14:20

cool. All right well tell us about

14:22

the story of this doc

14:24

you see or documentary what

14:28

what happened? So at the end of

14:30

the Eastern Continental Trail which

14:32

includes the Appalachian Trail it runs

14:34

from Canada to South Florida this

14:38

man was discovered in a place called

14:40

Big Cypress National Preserve a really sort

14:42

of wild area of the

14:44

Eastern Continental Trail of Florida Trail and

14:47

he was discovered deceased and he weighed only 86

14:49

pounds and he

14:51

despite having a bunch of food in his

14:53

tent and he had no

14:55

wallet no credit cards no photo ID no cell

14:58

phone none of these things that you and I

15:00

you know pretty much have one or more of

15:02

these things on us at all times that tell

15:04

you who we are so

15:07

the Collier County Sheriff's Office the police down there tried

15:09

to figure out who he was ran some

15:11

fingerprints and couldn't figure it out and

15:14

so they released what's called a composite sort

15:17

of a rendering of what this person might have looked

15:19

like in life and put on the internet and it

15:21

turned out over 20 people had seen

15:24

or met this guy and some of them

15:26

had even taken photographs but he only introduced

15:28

himself by his trail name which

15:30

is a nickname you get if you're hiking

15:32

the Appalachian Trail which was mostly harmless and

15:34

he'd never given anyone his real name or

15:37

any serious identifying details about himself

15:39

but he interacted with these people he'd camped

15:41

with these people he'd you

15:43

know shared some intimate moments with these

15:45

people they just didn't know who he

15:47

was and so the hiker community has

15:49

an online presence and that

15:51

sort of cross-pollinated the sleuth community and they

15:53

were off to the races trying to figure

15:56

out who this mostly harmless

15:58

character was In Life. And

16:00

the film sort of charge that. Process.

16:03

As well as you know, actually, Identifying him

16:05

which it turns out he was. Absolutely.

16:09

Not who everybody thought he was. During.

16:12

The search yeah use like this

16:14

person was to people before he

16:16

went on. This. Quest.

16:18

To remove himself from the

16:20

public population. He was one

16:22

person before that, obviously, and

16:24

another person after that. But

16:26

the difference between the two

16:28

people seems on the surface

16:30

to be so stark. so

16:33

dramatic. Ah, I'm wondering, how

16:35

did you approach that? Knowing

16:37

that you're telling the story of like to

16:39

different people in this one body. It's.

16:42

Interesting, I think. Like

16:44

I said, a one of the things that

16:46

really it is sassy me about the story

16:48

was that sort of interrogation of the digital

16:50

face. And. What the Internet does A

16:52

how we view ourselves that we the each other,

16:54

how we treat each other. On

16:56

and I think one of the things you know the

16:58

internet has become especially social media has become. Sort

17:00

of an outrage machine, right? That that

17:02

that which pisses you off the most? he

17:04

gets mad clicks he isn't share as a

17:07

bat which is the most sensational and I

17:09

think part of that is led led to

17:11

some black and white thinking Why the very

17:13

least black and white thinking. Being rewarded online

17:15

so things are all dead or they're all.

17:17

Bad are you know? it's

17:19

as a man, and people

17:21

are really a lot more

17:23

complex than that. And most

17:25

of us have the capacity to do

17:27

both bad in the most of us

17:30

have done both bad and dead that

17:32

the internet makes us have that thought

17:34

of. This must be to different people.

17:37

But in reality I think he was.

17:39

Absolutely No one said that. Zip up

17:41

a both of those elements of Wasn't

17:43

and Jekyll and Hyde saying i think

17:46

both the Zalman says a the things

17:48

he did wrong which is you. Know I

17:50

don't want to spoil the movie too much, but it's

17:52

revealed where the and the movie? Where Were. You

17:54

know as integrated and him as the things he

17:56

did right and and particularly you know some of

17:58

the hikers Young man in Brand. And who.

18:01

You know they shared. They had a pretty deep talk

18:03

about history and out what it's like to be. A.

18:05

Man in this world and to try to

18:08

you know, go your own way and he'll

18:10

am that. I think that was a genuine,

18:12

genuine interaction and I think that the kindness

18:14

and decency and care that he should brand

18:16

and bring it showed him was real and

18:18

I don't think that means. It

18:20

was another person who did those bad things

18:23

which are unequivocally bad. You know I make

18:25

no excuses of it's guys that behavior arm

18:27

and as if someone were like say about

18:29

that but would absolutely spoil the fell. By

18:33

you know I don't. I don't make any

18:35

excuses for that. Wrong is wrong. And I'm.

18:38

You know I believe the people who said he

18:40

did wrong but he I also believe that people

18:42

said he did right and made them feel seen.

18:44

Yes, so tell us about the of

18:47

the hiking community you mentioned branded but

18:49

I'm yeah we're what about other people

18:51

who I'm had i guess run ins

18:53

with. With. Mostly harmless are

18:56

wedded though. What were their take

18:58

with. Yeah. I'll at the

19:00

people who met him really liked him. He

19:02

was sort of it at. Kinds.

19:06

Quiet. polites, you

19:08

know, Relatively

19:10

good looking, relatively

19:12

young, Nice wholesome

19:15

guy is. How a how he appeared on the

19:17

trail which there is a lot more. To that than

19:19

meets the eye on by. she really connect

19:21

with lot of people in the People in

19:23

the summer just a few of of many

19:25

but their perception him was extremely positive. And

19:28

I'm like endlessly curious to find out where

19:30

your thought process goes in your work process

19:32

goes when you are. Beginning.

19:35

To tell the story, are you looking for

19:37

certain things? Are you letting the people you're

19:39

interviewing sort of direct you as far as

19:41

the narrative that you're putting out there because

19:44

you you just mentioned about like him being

19:46

nuanced and there's good and bad and everybody

19:48

and you need to kind of dig a

19:50

little bit deeper was that's something that came

19:53

to you as you are talking to people

19:55

and. I think that was

19:57

something that was Dell and understood there

19:59

would be a town the lines trying

20:02

to reconcile this person that people have

20:04

seen and the person that we knew

20:06

existed in a in his life before

20:08

the trail and I was excited to

20:11

explore that challenge. As a filmmaker I

20:13

really try to go into these stories

20:15

without answers and with a lot of

20:17

questions. And you know that

20:20

is part. Of my work process a try

20:22

to be really open. And let the

20:24

people who live this story teller than than

20:26

figure out how best to sort of arrange

20:28

that race. I had a real running start

20:30

on this one because so much of this.

20:32

The. Search itself went down. On

20:35

internet which was like this time capsule because the

20:37

internet forever raise you can see minute by Matt

20:39

how he swore feeling the question they're asking what

20:41

they were doing I'm you can look back in

20:44

really great detail I'm at how the case the

20:46

saw this I knew that will be a part

20:48

of and I knew I didn't want to tell

20:50

the story. Just about this Ma'am I'm

20:52

or just about his death or

20:54

just about I didn't wanna tell

20:56

that story and ones. To tell

20:58

this sort of thousand foot view community

21:00

story of. The surge. The people

21:03

that. Search. For him which I think was

21:05

agree act of generosity. And like this

21:07

mythmaking that we did go on

21:09

line that we really need start

21:11

looking and and considering. Yes,

21:14

Oh that culture of I guess

21:16

Saab online citizens loops are private

21:18

interests to do something you can

21:21

a dove into in this movie.

21:23

or were there any patterns that

21:25

you picked up on arm and

21:27

between? So the the folks that

21:30

you interviewed. Yeah. So.

21:33

Look. I get there is. It's. Not

21:35

getting anything way to say that. do

21:37

this though. The toothless that are featured

21:39

in the movie or two women Chrissy

21:42

Harris and Natasha Teasley. And

21:44

they are both leaders in their own right.

21:46

The each had a group. Each group was

21:48

instrumental to. Solving this case, And.

21:50

A lotta times they were put at

21:52

odds against one another. that with their

21:54

with a little drama in the middle

21:56

of solving this but one of the

21:58

things that I found. The remarkable was.

22:01

If you were take it out, it's

22:03

online contacts and these two groups of

22:05

these two women being pinned against one

22:07

another lot in common. They were both

22:10

working class women that's who are pillars

22:12

in their families who worked really hard

22:14

all day and came home and the

22:16

end of the day and ultimately decided

22:18

to donate what little time they had.

22:21

Ah, I'm to trying to

22:23

solve this. Case. And

22:26

I'm. Trying. To get some

22:28

answers to have family they didn't even know. Ah,

22:30

and I thought there was something really generous. About

22:32

that altruistic an. Enormous. heroic

22:35

that you know. When you're

22:37

you're struggling. you know? Just said like

22:39

we all are to keep. Our life

22:42

together That you say no, no, you know

22:44

what? I'm going to spend a bunch hours

22:46

doing this. I yeah I was amazed that

22:48

obviously they're two very different people that I

22:50

was amazed at how much they hadn't com

22:52

and and how much the internet obscured with

22:54

they hadn't come in and often turns them

22:57

into have like these are women who are

22:59

both armed bully by the internet and it

23:01

affected them profoundly emotionally. ah in really similar

23:03

ways and I'm one of the things I

23:05

was excited about was being able. To show

23:07

these people who are seen as. You know

23:09

people, you gotta pick a side. As a Christian

23:11

it has, It's like one of these are kenneth.

23:14

Gals, Gone through similar similar thing

23:16

with similar intentions. And. Will be

23:18

right back. After a quick word from our

23:21

sponsors. Raggatt.

23:23

In is the smartest way to save money

23:25

when you shop get cash back at over

23:27

thirty five hundred stores across. Every single

23:29

categories. Including fashion, beauty, electronics, home

23:31

essential, travel dining, and so much more.

23:34

Oh Tim, you speak my language. I'm

23:36

on the website right now. They have

23:38

the hot deals section. Am I going

23:40

to say you might see me? are

23:42

showing up in a new pair of

23:44

Levi's pretty soon? I can get a

23:47

great deal on a sweet a pair

23:49

of Adidas sneakers. Okay Jerry Seinfeld. Well,

23:51

I love me some Nike's. Lance and I do

23:53

love shopping at Bloomingdales as well and

23:56

membership. Two rackets in the is free and

23:58

it's easy to sign up and. Did

24:00

you know Rakuten has 17 million members

24:02

who are already saving? It's pretty impressive

24:05

and Rakuten members have earned over 4.6

24:08

billion bucks in cashback. Cashback

24:10

rates change daily. And we

24:12

mentioned the clothing brands, but

24:14

there's plenty more. There's Petco.

24:17

There's wine.com. Lenovo.

24:19

Samsung. The list goes on

24:21

and on. So start all

24:23

your shopping at rakuten.com or

24:25

get the Rakuten app. To

24:27

start saving today, your cashback

24:29

really adds up. Thanks

24:31

to our sponsors. And now we're back to the program.

24:35

Just examining the statement that they're doing

24:38

this thing that is almost

24:40

heroic. And I agree with you. I think

24:42

that it is on some level a

24:44

form of heroism because

24:47

you are giving answers on some

24:49

level to family members and friends and

24:51

loved ones. But it comes

24:53

with that cost of you're going to

24:57

most likely be bullied online. You're going

24:59

to be pit against somebody else. You're

25:01

going to have to spend some of

25:03

that time defending your findings against somebody

25:05

who probably hasn't done the amount of

25:07

research or close to what you've done.

25:10

So what did you see in them that

25:13

maybe gave you a little bit of an indication of

25:15

an answer as to why they do this? What's the

25:17

reward for them? I think they're just good people.

25:20

You know what I saw in both of them is I saw

25:22

myself. I saw

25:24

somebody who was told you can't do this. Who

25:27

the hell do you think you are, Missy? And

25:29

they were like, watch me. I

25:32

grew up working class. I

25:34

am not supposed to get to have the cool

25:37

job that I have. And

25:40

at a certain point, you just have

25:42

to go for it. And these

25:44

are two women that went for it. And they're also two

25:46

women who I

25:48

think it's fair to say there's a

25:50

perception of people who do sleuth work

25:52

or just working class women in

25:55

general that is diminutive. That's kind

25:57

of like, ha ha. The

26:00

Am. I. Wanted to

26:02

show. How deeply

26:05

complex and worth examining and worth celebrating

26:07

they are and you know I think

26:09

that was I think a lot of

26:12

my my filmmaker Li energy. Went.

26:14

Into that I think I think this

26:16

is these are people That these are

26:18

people who were toll who are disempowered

26:20

rain Chris see wanting to be. In.

26:22

The as the isle or life and life

26:25

circumstances worked out this can be Natasha his

26:27

knife crime true crime per cent. She's an

26:29

outdoors person but she was working as a

26:31

company and as a woman getting paid less

26:33

than her male colleagues and kind of running

26:35

the whole thing and not being compensated for

26:37

ad and you know and often they come

26:39

to the internet now like I can l

26:41

agency here like no one cares about the

26:43

things you're reading and me into marriage or

26:45

they can do my job and furthermore I'm

26:48

in a take that this job eminent as

26:50

the I'm not going to try to use

26:52

it to make. Money or make myself same

26:54

as I'm gonna try to use it to

26:56

like help a family and I may never

26:58

meet them a never even thank me that

27:00

I may not even know their names. I

27:03

just thought that was really cool and I

27:05

I you know I work in crime story

27:07

telling a lie. it's non purpose which is

27:09

the story they gravitate towards. A lot of

27:12

times it's the stakes are the sending in

27:14

the film happens to be centering a mystery

27:16

or crime. I There's been a lot of

27:18

discourse about that over the last couple years

27:20

about. A summer and a

27:22

lot of it's and critical for a

27:24

lot of is an important ethical questions

27:27

me to ask makers of true crime

27:29

content I'm I'm all for that but

27:31

some of it's been on condescending to

27:33

to the audience. Or. Diminishing of

27:35

the audience and that simple is really

27:37

bothers me because I think a lot

27:39

of people are interested in these stories,

27:41

not because of the learn Details are

27:43

like you know. I don't think it's

27:45

like. People. Are showing

27:48

up for it? Sexy murder party or

27:50

whatever way that can characterize online. I

27:52

think people want to hear stories about

27:54

people facing. Tough. Things: People

27:56

facing tragic, People facing death, People

27:59

facing violence. People facing quote unquote

28:01

evil arm and maintaining that humanity

28:03

and fighting to seek answers and

28:05

same thing, justice and and fighting

28:08

to create the world they want

28:10

to live in and I wanted

28:12

to pay tribute to that. Community.

28:16

And that that exercise the empathy that I

28:18

think through prem audiences are true cream the

28:20

true crime to me and or know what

28:22

that means but it's a term that people

28:24

throw our and lot that did that this

28:26

exercise an empathy that they undertake when they

28:28

do this. I wanted people to to stop

28:30

and think before they dismiss them just as

28:32

much as I want to say these things

28:34

about. Mythmaking. On the internet

28:36

and who we really are and I hope I

28:38

hope we succeed in doing that. It

28:40

reminds me of. Berkley, Say

28:42

about the nightly news where if it

28:44

bleeds it leads and things had recently

28:47

says and there has to be like

28:49

you know whip pans and and fast

28:51

motion stuff to keep your attention. But

28:53

we found. And. This is exactly

28:55

what you're talking about. We've found in our

28:57

audience base. People. When they're

28:59

introduced to the story that they wanna

29:01

hear the story Bad. So somebody overcoming

29:03

the adversity, getting the best of the

29:05

situation and coming out of it a

29:08

better person. They want to hear that

29:10

more than they want to see the

29:12

police to. it says the felicia stuff

29:14

is everywhere. It's why can't a

29:16

I always bristle at this term. True

29:18

crime or true crime girl either? Two

29:21

craps. I just because. I'd.

29:24

I just think that's a term that thrown

29:26

at a whole lot of work that's not

29:28

necessarily all related. I think there is worth

29:30

it. centers around there's crime story telling that's

29:32

about things that. Really? Matter

29:34

at that's about bigger issues, it's

29:37

about people that deserve to be

29:39

centered and I'm, you know, story

29:41

that need to be told. Sexy.

29:45

Love Triangle Murder party at Ss and

29:48

I just I think the other two

29:50

totally different genres fests. They get lumped

29:52

together and I think I think the

29:54

audience is. Capable.

29:57

Of a lot more than maybe sometimes

29:59

it does. The greater structures of the

30:01

industry anticipate. But I'm excited to be

30:03

making films during this time because I

30:05

think it's I think they're learning as

30:08

you for catching up. particularly at Arm

30:10

Max Live Massey our exact enjoys The

30:12

Thorn as is now to present them.

30:15

The. Network of the at the time I believe

30:17

you as a present of investigative contents they

30:19

really have an expansive vocabulary for where this

30:21

form can go arm and it was a

30:24

real delight to me that there and to

30:26

get to be creative and to get a

30:28

look at these characters days because I do

30:30

this work for the people. You

30:32

know, I I really care about the

30:34

people, my songs and I'm really excited

30:37

to see them discover themselves. And it's

30:39

it's important to get with a network

30:41

or or commissioning editor. Whatever heavy rains

30:43

your work, you know that that allows

30:45

you do that. And very, very lucky

30:48

that we're allowed to do that here.

30:50

Is. So you've spoken a little bit

30:53

about how the Internet helped play

30:55

a role in identifying. Mostly.

30:57

Harmless, but was it up harmful

30:59

at all? Or are there any.

31:02

Any stories are anecdotes. You can tell

31:05

us how how it went the wrong

31:07

way involving the internet. Sure, it'll.

31:09

Look. There's some things in the film,

31:11

right people get miss and identified people

31:14

bullied. shudder at ends, you know? Even

31:16

though we want to pretend the internet

31:18

isn't real at like it's adding as

31:20

the as we live our lives increasingly

31:22

online, it is real. You can do

31:24

legitimate harm. Aaron Legit. Make that right. So

31:28

I think those two things come up. In

31:31

a pretty the and out with their with

31:33

their pretty straightforwardly laid bare and the film but

31:35

I'm I'm not sure the problem is sleuthing.

31:37

You know I think the problem is the internet.

31:39

I think the problem is is black and white

31:42

thinking our willingness to attack our willingness to

31:44

savings we would never say in real life our

31:46

lack of inability to give people the benefit

31:48

of the dow or get to know them

31:50

the way you my in your living. Room

31:52

or in a bar or at

31:54

school or wherever you are. You

31:57

know, and I think those really are the.

32:00

The. Pitfalls that they can be

32:02

harmful arm and I and hope

32:04

the people see the film and

32:06

even if they're not at all

32:08

engaged and sleuthing or whenever that

32:10

they I'm consider their own behavior

32:12

online and how they read other

32:14

people online because like look, even

32:16

if you're not in this. Sub.

32:18

Culture This sleuth world. You're

32:21

probably on Instagram or Facebook or take

32:24

tag or whatever. pick whatever generation or

32:26

and there's one for yeah, Race and

32:28

I'm you know it's the thing that's

32:30

happening here is just like a very

32:33

intense version of. When. You

32:35

see that girl you went to high school

32:37

with and she's got a big house and

32:39

a million kids and what's wrong with me

32:41

that I don't have that? Are you know

32:43

or when you see that guy in the

32:45

Ferrari? Are you see the post about the

32:47

Happy Family on Facebook? a home for Christmas

32:49

and your kids not talking to you right?

32:51

and you you you tell these stories about

32:53

these people and it can hurt you and

32:55

the and and then the story isn't always

32:57

necessarily true. Yeah, it certainly does get

32:59

you remove spiral of self judgment right

33:01

when you're looking at all of these

33:03

other things that are only posted because

33:05

there's so much better. Rage. Only

33:07

post something because it's so much better

33:09

and. I for the most

33:11

part people aren't aware that they're doing

33:14

that are having that impact. To

33:16

the folks that are looking at the post. I

33:18

know I was. Making as a starting to

33:20

think about that a lot more and I

33:23

was like what am I putting like okay

33:25

well. I. Hope I'm not super

33:27

on social media the it's funny somebody

33:29

asked him. During a press block so I have

33:31

a bunch of seasons was. Like what's your answer

33:33

I'm willing to on as he withdrew

33:35

the my dogs he has site offers

33:37

a lot Alsace but ah mean. Our

33:40

Us essential. But

33:42

I'm. By P.e.valencia Instagram if you

33:44

wanna see pictures of Shanked but who

33:47

are thankfully has embarked through the entire

33:49

thing. I'm really impressed with him. Look

33:51

at a treats but I'm. But.

33:54

You know? I started to think like. Also.

33:57

about the positives i oppose because i liked always

33:59

like oh my my Instagram is

34:01

so neutral because I don't really get

34:03

into, you know, I really just keep

34:06

it wholesome, keep it clean, try not

34:08

to piss anyone off because

34:11

I'd rather have those conversations at a table with

34:13

someone than have online

34:15

fights with people. But then I'm like, man,

34:17

even when I post a good thing, like

34:19

I really have to be careful to explain

34:24

that this isn't something that just happened to me because

34:26

I'm excellent, you know, or like I'm a lucky girl

34:28

and you're not. This is something that

34:30

like every success I ever

34:32

had in my life had so much failure

34:35

behind it, you know? And

34:37

that's something we don't see a

34:39

lot online. And because

34:42

of this black and white thinking where we want something to

34:44

be all good or all bad, we edit

34:46

those tough parts out. And I think

34:48

that that's a lot of what happened

34:50

with Mostly and Harmless himself. People were

34:52

like, this is our victim. This

34:54

is the person we wanna save. So he

34:57

must be good and pure. And

34:59

then like, what do you know? When you find

35:01

out who he is, he's just like everybody else

35:03

and did some really bad stuff. And

35:06

that to me is just so fascinating to turn

35:08

over in my mind. Yeah, absolutely.

35:11

And what was he doing

35:13

on the Appalachian Trail? We will

35:16

never know that exactly, right?

35:18

Because if you

35:20

don't leave some kind of clue,

35:23

like a manifesto or

35:26

whatever, you don't live inside

35:28

someone's head. Once somebody passed away, you can never

35:30

fully understand their motivations. And that's something as somebody

35:32

who works, telling stories

35:34

about people who've passed away a lot of the

35:36

time, I try really hard to keep that in

35:38

mind. So I don't know

35:41

exactly. I

35:43

think, which

35:45

is a supposition, like I'm just off

35:48

the cuff, I

35:50

like to read it as a desire. I

35:52

think he maybe was trying to be a

35:55

better person. And maybe that's because I'm optimistic

35:57

about humanity and maybe I shouldn't be.

35:59

And maybe. people take issue with that. But I

36:02

really love people. I love people even when I

36:04

don't love what they do, even when I don't

36:06

fully agree with them. Even

36:08

when I like fully flow

36:10

on reject some of their

36:13

history. I love people and I want to give

36:15

them the benefit of the doubt and I'd like

36:17

I'd like to give him a little bit more

36:19

of the benefit of the doubt. But

36:22

I'm, I'm also really careful. I don't want to be

36:24

here to be an apologist for

36:26

it without spoiling the movie for his

36:28

actions. Like, that's not

36:31

okay. But you

36:33

can be not okay and then try

36:36

to be better. And I think I would like to see

36:38

our culture open up more of a space for people

36:40

to allow themselves to be wrong

36:42

and improve, which I think the internet is

36:45

maybe starting to think about learning to

36:47

do. I think you're totally

36:49

on with that. I think there were

36:52

so many things that he recognized in his life

36:54

that were adding to

36:56

the pressure and becoming triggers for him

36:58

that he didn't want to become triggers.

37:00

And I'm like, look, I'm

37:03

a diehard feminist. And I made

37:05

this film through the female gaze.

37:08

But I also think it's about

37:10

I, I think

37:12

it's tough to be a man right

37:14

now, especially in terms of

37:16

mental health and image rehab. And I

37:19

don't mean that in some kind of

37:21

apologistic, you know, growth,

37:24

manosphere way, you know, I don't mean it

37:26

like that. But I do mean,

37:28

I think that it was really

37:32

complex. I think I think it's really I think

37:35

was really complicated to try to write the

37:37

ship for him. And I think

37:39

that that's a story worth telling. And I think

37:41

I think it's actually a feminist issue, that it's

37:44

hard for men to admit the wrong

37:47

and and try to fix it and

37:49

get the support to try to fix it. And I

37:51

think the story of Brandon in

37:53

the film, hopefully starts to hint

37:56

at that, you know, it reminds

37:58

me of a conversation I was having with

38:00

my my partner and one of her friends

38:02

about that exact topic. Like

38:06

what young men

38:08

are taught, especially young men before the

38:10

internet, are taught by their parents and

38:12

taught by their friends' parents and

38:14

how they have to live

38:17

their life one way, which ultimately

38:19

results in you're shutting yourself off

38:21

from the things that are important to communicate to people that

38:23

you love. And

38:26

then if you have mental health issues on top

38:28

of that, it

38:30

just further accelerates anything

38:32

bad or

38:34

any dire consequences that are

38:37

now inevitable. Yeah. And again,

38:39

I don't want to woman-splain to you, which

38:41

is a little bit what I'm doing, Ironic.

38:43

Please do. Yeah, I think that some

38:45

of what we're, and

38:47

I have to be so careful not to spoil

38:50

the mystery of the film, but I

38:52

think some of this, what

38:55

we're talking about is black and whiteness online and

38:57

that there's all good, all bad, what

38:59

you're allowed to say, what you're not allowed to say, whatever, it

39:02

really makes that discourse really difficult because you almost

39:04

have to apologize for having it. And even when

39:06

I'm on here, myself, as somebody who has a

39:08

body of work that's pretty much unquestioningly, you look

39:11

at my IMDb, you're like, oh, that's a girl's

39:13

girl, right? But I

39:15

still feel I have to say like, oh, I just want

39:17

to be clear, I don't support misogyny. I

39:20

notice that even in myself when I want to be like,

39:22

hey, we have a problem here. And I

39:24

feel like the internet itself has made

39:26

this discourse so hard because even to

39:28

talk about that problem, you

39:30

have to make a

39:32

bunch of sort of pre-qualifying

39:35

statements about. And

39:38

I do think that it wouldn't have been that way

39:40

before the internet was the way it was. And don't

39:42

get me wrong, for all the harm the internet can

39:44

do, it can also do a lot of good. And

39:47

we showed both of those things in the film, I

39:49

think, but it does make it

39:51

hard to talk about this stuff. And

39:54

making this, there was a lot of sensitivity around,

39:56

well, are you painting him as a bad guy or a good guy?

39:58

And I'm like, I'm painting as

40:00

a person. I'm only going to say what's true.

40:02

I'm going to try, I'm

40:05

going to prioritize being honest and also

40:07

trying not to harm anyone. And

40:11

that's my answer. Like, I don't know, good guy,

40:13

bad guy. Like that's not my business. I

40:16

don't know. That's for somebody else to decide and it's

40:18

not me. But

40:20

it's, you know, we have a

40:23

desire to ask that question and make those classifications,

40:25

I think a lot because of this

40:27

digital age we're living in, which is

40:29

a dermal theme in this film

40:31

for me. And we'll be

40:33

right back after a quick word from our

40:35

sponsors. Thanks

40:38

to our sponsors. And now we're back to the program.

40:41

And how did Othram

40:43

Labs come to be

40:45

part of this documentary? So, I mean, they were

40:47

part of the story. So they were some of

40:49

the earliest people we went to. In

40:52

the story, they are a big part

40:54

of cracking the case. So Othram is

40:56

a cutting edge DNA company that does

40:58

something called autosomal DNA. I

41:00

will explain this to your audience probably now. They'll

41:04

love it. We're pretty familiar with the middleman's.

41:06

We've had them on a few times here.

41:09

Oh, okay, great. Well, then I won't woman's plan

41:11

autosomal DNA. No, it still will

41:13

help, I'm sure. Okay, but

41:16

basically, autosomal DNA

41:18

allows you to, the

41:22

way traditional DNA works is it gives you a yes

41:24

or no answer. You can compare it to other samples

41:27

of DNA and say, yes, this is the person. No,

41:29

this is not the person, right? Autosomal

41:31

DNA looks at so many different

41:33

factors in the

41:35

genome. I hope I'm saying this right, David Middleman,

41:38

if you're listening. That it

41:40

actually gives you leads and clues rather than a

41:43

simple, yes, it is, no, it is an answer.

41:45

And you can identify relatives

41:47

of the person. You can identify

41:49

their possible ethnic background or heritage.

41:51

You can make guesses about where

41:53

this person lives or is from.

41:56

And this information in

41:58

this case. was

42:01

really crucial because Doe cases get

42:03

solved by exposure, they get solved

42:05

by the right person, realizing

42:08

that an unidentified person is in fact

42:10

their missing loved one and they get,

42:12

it's all about likes and

42:14

shares and visibility and the right person seeing it.

42:17

But in this particular case,

42:19

Othram's genetic profile helped narrow down

42:22

to a region. So the

42:24

energy of these thousands of sloughs could be

42:26

focused on one place. Sometimes

42:29

Othram will solve a case because they,

42:32

run the autosomal DNA and they say, oh, we know his

42:34

second cousin will call him up. In

42:36

this case, but a lot of that's depending on who

42:39

took the 23 and me and uploaded it to GEDmatch

42:41

or whatever platform share information with law

42:44

enforcement. And there are plenty of

42:46

reasons people might not choose to do that. There's a

42:48

lot of questions around privacy,

42:50

but I had them before I started

42:52

this film and then I started making

42:54

the film and I talked to the

42:56

middleman's and I was like, oh, I'm

42:58

gonna go swab my face and upload

43:00

to GEDmatch now because, but that's a

43:02

deeper discussion that they're probably much more enlightening

43:05

on. But yeah, so

43:07

they were really key in this. And if I'm

43:09

not, this is, I believe the first time

43:12

they crowdfunded a case. Now they have a

43:14

platform called DNA Salts that you can check

43:16

out tons of unidentified or missing persons

43:19

cases and, or unidentified

43:21

persons cases and donate

43:23

to them. And even things like

43:25

five bucks really helps. Because

43:28

I, you know, one of the things I

43:30

like to mention is that because

43:32

these cases get solved by availability

43:35

or visibility, it's important to remember

43:38

that not everybody garners the kind

43:40

of attention and energy that mostly

43:43

harmless did as a, you know, relatively

43:47

good looking, relatively young white guy

43:49

found in a mysterious circumstance that

43:51

generate a lot of public interest.

43:53

Sometimes these people are people

43:55

who, because of unconscious bias in society

43:57

or the circumstances or the era they

43:59

were. profound and they just don't

44:02

get liked and shared and plastered

44:04

everywhere. And we can be a

44:06

part of fixing that. There's a lot of people of color,

44:09

people from immigrant populations, women

44:11

from sex work. You

44:14

know, I could build the list goes

44:16

on and on and indigenous people in

44:18

particular that just aren't getting the volume

44:20

of shared somebody like mostly harmless did.

44:22

And that's something for $0 and two

44:24

seconds of your time that you can

44:26

change. You can just see either

44:29

the unidentified person's composite or

44:31

the missing person's flyer and share

44:33

it and you're actually

44:35

doing something which I did not

44:38

realize before I started telling this story

44:40

that you don't have to go full

44:42

sleuth to be involved in

44:44

solving the problem. Right. That

44:46

was one of my questions was taking a

44:48

story like this that received such media attention

44:51

because of those circumstances. How do

44:53

you then communicate a message to people and say, hey,

44:55

but there are all of these other stories that take

44:57

very little time to do. So

44:59

you just kind of answered my question before I could

45:01

ask it, which is nice. So

45:04

I appreciate that. Is

45:06

that something that you are going to take

45:08

in your life personally and become even a bigger

45:12

proponent of a even bigger spokesperson

45:15

for? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I

45:17

think the spokesperson should be Chrissy Harris

45:19

and if she feels like it, Natasha

45:21

Teasley, the sleuth in the film. I

45:23

am no expert. I bear witness

45:25

and that's, you know, I'm just a set of

45:28

eyes in the ears. But

45:30

in my own life, I'm definitely way more

45:32

conscious of this stuff. Like I stop and

45:34

read missing persons posters

45:37

in my neighborhood. I live in Queens, New

45:39

York, the best borough. And

45:42

you know, I you see these things around

45:44

sometimes and I really read them and I really take a

45:46

minute to think and if I see anything, I

45:48

also when I see them online, I'm not

45:51

I'm not super online. But when I am

45:53

online, I'm way more likely to share things.

45:55

I share them if they come across. I

45:58

share them. And

46:00

so should I be a spokesperson?

46:02

Absolutely not, not enough of an expert, but I

46:06

am very down to throw in for

46:08

the effort. And I hope that

46:10

the film, I think the best way that

46:13

I can advocate is that the film encourages

46:15

people to do that. Because if you have

46:17

a couple thousand people sharing

46:21

the stuff, I mean, it's exponential, right?

46:23

A thousand people sharing something does

46:26

a lot more than a hundred people sharing something. And

46:28

if you can watch the film and just go,

46:30

oh, I'm gonna share it, you know, you might be able

46:32

to bring somebody home to their family and give their family

46:34

closure. Well, thank you so much,

46:36

Patricia, for spending some time with us

46:38

here today. What's next for you? I

46:41

can't tell you too much. It's Blue Ruin 2,

46:43

isn't it? No, no, you don't have

46:45

to call Jeremy about that. I'm

46:51

making a film, I'm at the, in the early

46:53

stages of making a film that centers another crime,

46:56

but in a very different

46:58

way, in a very different context than you'd expect.

47:01

So, and it has a lot of

47:03

those themes I'm interested in about class

47:05

and gender roles and people

47:07

trying to be the heroes in their own lives. So look

47:10

out for it, but not anytime super soon. Well,

47:13

whenever it's ready and you're doing the press for that one, you're

47:15

more than welcome to come back on and talk about it. And

47:18

if you want to come back on to talk about any

47:21

of the other work that you've done, feel free. Door's open.

47:24

Thank you, fellas, I really appreciate it. Thank

47:26

you.