0:00

I'm going to shine a light

0:02

on all the problems here in

0:04

New Mexico. And I really

0:06

hope that the Attorney General enjoyed his

0:08

job while he had it. Welcome

0:41

back to Missing. I am Tim here today with

0:43

Lance. Lance, how are you today? I'm

0:45

doing so well today, Tim. Thanks so much for asking.

0:47

I hope everyone out there is doing well. I

0:50

think that what we have coming up

0:53

this conversation, a return guest, is going

0:55

to be a welcome episode for people. I

0:57

feel like it's been a little too long since we've had him

0:59

on the show. I hold this person in such high esteem and

1:02

I know you do as well, Tim. But before we get to

1:04

him, how are you? I'm doing

1:06

all right. Thanks a lot for

1:08

asking. And yeah, today we're speaking

1:10

with fellow podcaster and really friend

1:12

in this industry, Eric Carter Landeen.

1:15

And he does his own

1:17

podcast called True Consequences that

1:19

is mostly about New Mexico

1:21

true crime. And

1:23

you got to check that out at True Consequences. And

1:25

there's a link in the show notes. But

1:28

he also fights for justice for his brother,

1:30

Jacob Landeen. And that's what we're speaking about

1:32

here today with Eric. There's

1:34

been some ups and downs and he's

1:36

really angry. Actually, the very first thing

1:39

he says is he's very angry about

1:41

where this pursuit for

1:43

justice is now. Yeah,

1:45

I believe he even says that the gloves

1:47

are off and all of the developments that

1:49

have happened over the course of the past

1:51

several months has really brought him to the

1:54

level of it's worth it now to get

1:56

angry and show your anger and

1:58

start fighting, which I completely. respect him

2:00

for. Absolutely. There's a lot

2:02

to this battle that he has taken on

2:05

for Justice for Jacob Landean. You

2:09

can find a Facebook group out there.

2:11

There's also an Instagram page. But make

2:13

sure to check out the links in

2:15

the show notes to follow all of

2:17

Eric's work and to follow

2:20

his journey for Justice for

2:22

Jacob. All right. We're going

2:24

to break real quick for commercial and

2:26

we will be right back with our

2:28

conversation with Eric Carter Landean. From

2:37

DNA testing to the Dixie Mafia, Crime

2:40

Capsule brings you new stories of

2:42

true crime in American history. I'm

2:45

your host, Benjamin Morris. Join

2:48

us for exclusive interviews with authors

2:50

from Arcadia Publishing, writing

2:52

the hottest books on the most chilling stories

2:54

of our country's past. You

2:57

can find us wherever you get

2:59

your favorite podcasts or on evergreenpodcasts.com.

3:03

Crime Capsule, history is so

3:05

interesting. It's criminal. Welcome

3:18

back to the podcast, Eric Carter

3:20

Landean. How are you tonight? Oh,

3:23

man. It's good to see you guys. I'm

3:26

pretty mad, but it's good to see you guys and be

3:28

on your show again. Wow.

3:31

Okay. That took me off guard because

3:34

not a lot of guests will respond with, I'm

3:36

pretty mad. Yeah. But it's good

3:38

to see you. It is good to see

3:40

you too. I feel like we

3:42

have a good rapport and all

3:45

of these conversations that we have

3:47

are so few and far between. We need to do this

3:49

more, is what I'm saying. Agreed. Even

3:52

if you're mad. Okay. Perfect. Everybody

3:55

knows I'm not mad at Tim

3:57

and Lance at all. It's

4:00

just Lance, you're mad at. It's mostly Lance.

4:06

Oh no. Just kidding. Obviously,

4:08

there's been some developments in

4:11

your brother's case that

4:13

you're here to discuss tonight. Before

4:16

we get too deep into that, can you just refresh

4:19

the audience, catch us up on

4:22

the case and what happened to your brother?

4:24

Yeah, so definitely to get the full story,

4:26

you can go back and listen to the

4:29

other episode that we did here

4:31

on Crawl Space, but I also have an episode on my show

4:33

where I talk to my mom and it's pretty

4:36

raw and pretty emotional. My

4:38

brother Jacob Lundeen was nine months old when

4:40

he was killed. And

4:42

he was killed by my mom's boyfriend at the time who

4:45

I haven't named yet, but

4:49

anticipate that that's gonna be coming soon.

4:53

It was a case of child abuse, clear

4:55

cut child abuse. Unfortunately, in

4:57

the 80s, we didn't

4:59

have a lot of understanding to the

5:02

level that we do now about things

5:04

like domestic violence. Child abuse was kind

5:06

of this nebulous thing that happened in

5:08

other places. And so I feel

5:11

like there was a lot of opportunities

5:14

that weren't taken advantage of

5:16

to intervene in Jacob's case

5:19

because of those factors and because of a number

5:21

of other factors. But

5:24

I've been fighting

5:26

for justice for close to 37

5:29

years now with my mom

5:31

for Jacob, trying to get his

5:33

killer locked up. And people

5:36

that haven't heard Jacob's story might be

5:38

wondering like, how did that happen? There's

5:42

a lot to that. And I think we can

5:44

kind of get into some of that as we

5:46

go later into this conversation. But essentially,

5:49

I used to

5:51

say I didn't know if it was corruption

5:54

or if it was negligence. I

5:56

think I probably said that on your show. confirmed

6:00

now that it is corruption. That

6:03

is what has caused Jacob's

6:05

case to not go anywhere.

6:08

And I have confirmation directly from an investigator

6:10

that was on the case in 1987. So

6:14

a number

6:17

of factors happened. Unfortunately, you know,

6:19

through all of this, I

6:22

guess I should say fortunately, because

6:24

of listeners, because of people who

6:26

engaged and helped. A

6:28

few years ago, I did a campaign

6:31

for people to call and to email and to

6:34

write the district attorney and ask him to

6:36

reopen Jacob's case, because

6:38

it had been like 35 years at that point

6:40

or 34 years at that point. And

6:43

within two days, he turned it over to the

6:45

Attorney General. And

6:48

that gave us a lot of hope. It really did.

6:50

We got really excited about that.

6:54

But we can go into kind of what happened if

6:56

you want later. I don't know how much you want me

6:59

to go into the case. Like I don't want to retell

7:01

the whole thing. But if you want me to go

7:03

further in, I can. Yeah, I think go

7:06

in as much as you feel is relevant

7:08

to where you're

7:10

at now, you know? Yeah. I

7:12

think knowing more about the corruption

7:14

angle might be important

7:16

because different people have

7:19

different definitions of corruption and what might

7:21

be perceived as oversight

7:23

or cutting corners might

7:26

be perceived as corruption to others. But I think it's

7:28

a little bit more than that, right? It is more

7:30

than that. I wish it was

7:33

something like that. I feel like I could

7:35

maybe not understand

7:38

that as much as where we are

7:40

now. So it's

7:43

important to know that the

7:45

person that I believe is responsible

7:47

for killing my brother, the person

7:49

who's responsible for abusing me and

7:51

my mom, wasn't

7:55

prosecuted at the time for a number of reasons.

7:57

I think the primary one was that he was with

8:00

all the cops. They played basketball

8:02

every weekend. It

8:04

was never something that I was comfortable

8:06

to say like this is obviously a

8:09

problem in the case because I didn't

8:11

really know I was a kid when

8:13

this happened but I spoke

8:18

to the person so I guess

8:21

I need to back up a little bit and I apologize for

8:23

being all over the place my emotions have been a wreck lately

8:25

but to back it

8:28

up just a little bit when

8:31

I asked for the case file from

8:34

the state of New Mexico on my brother's case I

8:37

went through it I went through every single page of

8:40

it and I

8:42

found in there a little mention in

8:44

one of the supplemental reports of a

8:46

confession that was obtained by

8:49

the suspect by the police

8:51

of the suspect but there

8:53

was no other detail

8:55

beyond that it was just one

8:57

little sentence probably like five words

9:00

and there's no recording

9:03

there's no documentation of this

9:05

confession it doesn't exist as far

9:08

as Socorro County

9:10

in New Mexico believes or

9:13

the state of New Mexico and so

9:15

that's always bothered me that's always been a

9:17

huge question in my mind with this case

9:19

like how do you obtain a confession from

9:21

somebody who's accused of killing a baby and

9:24

then it's just magically gone and

9:26

when I ask that question of people

9:29

I've talked to in government I'm

9:32

often given answers like well

9:34

you know it's a really old case

9:36

and these kinds of things happen all

9:39

the time and evidence always goes missing

9:42

which I know is true to a certain

9:44

extent but like the

9:46

flippant nature that they say

9:48

that really bothers me that has nothing to do

9:51

with the corruption but it's just something that really

9:53

really bothers me because it's for

9:56

them it's just like oh well it just happens but

9:58

for my mom and I Like

10:00

this is our whole life. This is my whole life. I've

10:02

been fighting for justice. I'm 43. I've

10:05

been fighting for justice for almost 37 years. Like

10:08

there's nothing flippant about this for me.

10:11

It's not cute. It's not fun. At

10:14

any rate, I was on Mile Hire with Kendall

10:16

Rae and a former

10:18

Albuquerque Police Department officer approached

10:20

me after that and said that

10:23

she wanted to help. That she knew a lot

10:25

of people in New Mexico and she wanted to look into

10:27

the case. So

10:30

I offered to

10:32

pay her for her services as

10:34

a PI. I'm

10:36

glad I didn't because she ghosted us.

10:40

But before she ghosted

10:42

us, she told me that she had been

10:44

talking to the police that

10:46

were involved in the investigation.

10:49

Trying to get an understanding of what was going on.

10:51

And what she said she was going to do was

10:53

put everything together and give it to the attorney general

10:56

so that they could take that and prosecute. So

11:00

she told me that she spoke with Patrick Apodaca,

11:03

who was I think

11:05

one of the main investigators in Jacob's case

11:07

in Socorro. And

11:09

he told her that he first

11:11

of all did record the

11:14

confession. He

11:16

did document it and he did have it

11:18

signed. So

11:21

good to know. He

11:25

also said there's a part where the

11:28

former chief of police was asked about

11:30

the evidence missing, about

11:32

the case, about what was going on in the police report.

11:37

I'm jumping all over and I'm sorry guys. But like we

11:39

did have the case reinvestigated in

11:42

the early 2000s by the cold case investigation unit

11:46

of the state police. And so that's where this kind of part

11:49

is coming from. That

11:53

officer or detective Christian asked

11:57

Chief Haley or former Chief Haley If

12:00

he remembered the case, if he knew anything about it, he said

12:02

he didn't. Patrick Apodaca

12:06

calls BS on that. So there's no

12:08

way that anybody would have forgotten this case

12:10

because there had never been a case like this

12:13

in Socorro County. And it's important to

12:15

know that there's only like 6,000 people

12:18

in this town. Like it's not

12:20

a big town. Things don't happen

12:22

like this all the time. So

12:27

Patrick says that he knew from

12:29

the beginning that it was going to be covered up, that

12:33

the sheriff at the time had

12:36

actually taken the suspect while state police were looking

12:39

for him to arrest him and

12:41

was driving him around for hours so that

12:44

he could evade arrest. So

12:47

that's the first clue that he had. And

12:49

then of course saying that he

12:51

knew that that evidence or that recording and

12:53

that confession wasn't going to go anywhere because

12:56

he heard people talking about it. Okay.

12:58

I first have to compliment you

13:01

on your diligence,

13:04

not naming a name and always saying

13:06

the suspect and the

13:09

person in question and being very

13:12

selective about your verbiage when you're

13:14

speaking about this person. So just

13:18

well done on that part because I don't know what

13:20

I would do in your situation. I would probably,

13:22

I would have gotten myself into trouble a

13:24

long time ago, I think. I

13:27

want to back it up just a little bit. Yeah.

13:29

You said that you were told that,

13:32

and you said they said it in a flippant

13:35

way, evidence always goes missing. What

13:38

is your response to that in real time?

13:40

I usually just kind of shake my head.

13:42

I don't usually say anything because it's just

13:44

so absurd to me that that

13:46

is acceptable.

13:50

Like if I, in my

13:53

day job, just decided

13:55

to get rid of records and

13:58

I was flipping, I would be fine. hired. Right.

14:01

And if like someone

14:04

who you had a responsibility to with

14:06

these records was like what happened and

14:08

you're like it just happens. Yeah.

14:11

Your boss would be livid. Yes.

14:16

You'd be gone. Yes, 100 percent. It's

14:20

really like it's infuriating. It

14:22

gets worse, trust me. It's pretty

14:24

disturbing information that you've given

14:27

us so far. So

14:31

tell us more about the confession. What's

14:33

the story there? This was recorded.

14:36

Where is it? I

14:38

wish I knew. I really do. I

14:42

have no clue what happened to it. So I may

14:46

have mentioned this before on your

14:49

show. I don't remember if I did on the

14:51

last episode. But there was a fire at the

14:53

district attorney's office. I think

14:55

it was like in 1991 or 1992. The

14:59

whole building burned down and it was a very old

15:01

building, Adobe building. So

15:04

I guess just the inside burned. I don't know. But

15:08

a lot of things were

15:10

lost in that fire. Now

15:16

I feel like everything that I'm going to say today

15:18

is going to make me sound like a conspiracy nut

15:20

job. And so I apologize in advance

15:22

for that. Tim and Lance know

15:25

me. They know that I'm not that type of person. I'm

15:28

pretty pragmatic when it comes to a lot

15:30

of things. And so it's

15:34

going to sound fantastical. It's going

15:36

to sound absurd probably

15:39

to a lot of people. And

15:41

I wish that it wasn't real. Like

15:44

I really do. But it is. So

15:48

I'm not saying that the suspect had anything to

15:50

do with the fire. But

15:54

he did have the keys to every building in the

15:56

county because he was a

15:58

custodian for the county. So

16:02

he had opportunity to do

16:04

that, to make that happen. But

16:07

I have no proof that that is what happened. It's

16:10

just an interesting fact

16:12

to consider. That does

16:14

not sound like a conspiracy whatsoever, because

16:16

you mentioned he had opportunity, and when

16:18

you put all of the pieces together,

16:20

there's motive, too,

16:23

to light that fire. And

16:25

of all the guests that we've had

16:28

over almost a decade of doing this show,

16:31

you've been one of the more

16:33

pragmatic and articulate guests that we've

16:36

ever had considering where you're coming

16:38

from. And I think every time

16:40

we speak, Tim and I will

16:42

text after, and we're like, how

16:44

is he doing this? So you

16:46

are not, by any means, considered

16:49

in our view like someone who would rush

16:51

to conclusions or

16:53

rush to a judgment or be somebody who

16:56

would just throw out a conspiracy

16:58

theory just for the sake of doing it. I mean,

17:00

this is coming after a lot of

17:02

work. I would also

17:05

point to your podcast, True Consequences,

17:07

to have people hear

17:09

your work on other cases

17:11

and decide for themselves if

17:14

they think you're conspiratorial. But

17:17

I'm pretty sure they're going to agree. Now,

17:20

you mentioned that you haven't named Jacob's

17:23

killer yet, but you

17:25

said yet. Is that

17:27

something that's been weighing on your mind? I'm

17:30

planning next steps. I'm planning my mom

17:32

and I are working on what we're going

17:34

to do now, because

17:38

as we'll talk about, we received some news regarding

17:40

the case that was not what we wanted

17:42

to hear. And so

17:44

I'm exploring all possibilities,

17:48

all courses of action.

17:50

I've already started exposing

17:54

some of this stuff on

17:56

social media and on

17:59

my podcast. honestly. So I think

18:02

that people can expect more information

18:05

coming in the near future from

18:07

me, from the show and

18:10

potentially from national media sources. If

18:13

you don't mind, because I definitely

18:15

do want to get to that, but if you

18:17

don't mind going back a little bit and talking

18:19

about Jacob, I

18:23

know it was a time

18:25

when you were young, he was

18:27

a baby. Can you just

18:30

talk about him a little bit and familiarize

18:32

the listeners who don't know? Thank

18:35

you for asking that, Lance.

18:39

My mind is obviously in

18:42

a million different directions today, so I appreciate you

18:44

bringing me back to that because I

18:46

always try to start with that.

18:52

Jacob was my

18:55

miracle baby, my

18:57

miracle brother. I

19:02

was raised in a

19:04

very religious home. My

19:06

dad was an evangelist, and

19:09

so I prayed for

19:11

Jacob. I

19:15

prayed for a little brother. And

19:20

when I found out my mom was pregnant, it

19:25

was the best day of my life at the

19:27

time. I

19:29

had learned how to ride my bike without training wheels,

19:32

and I had fallen into a bush. My

19:36

parents, as I was crying, told

19:39

me that my mom was pregnant. I

19:41

completely forgot about the pain that I was in.

19:43

I started running around and screaming like a maniac

19:46

and jumping up and down like any

19:48

five-year-old who really wanted

19:50

a sibling would do. When

19:54

he was born, he was a

19:56

giant. He was 10 pounds. My

19:59

mom is... is, well, she was 5'1". She's

20:01

probably like 4'10 now. But

20:04

she was 5'1 at the time. So very,

20:07

very big baby for her. He

20:11

had such a huge personality for

20:13

a baby. Like

20:16

my son had a big personality, but Jacob

20:18

was just to the nth degree. He was

20:20

fearless. He used to, we had

20:27

this old swing, wind up swing, and he

20:29

would, as it would swing forward, he would

20:31

grab the front legs. And then

20:33

as it went backwards, he would throw the

20:35

whole thing back because he was gigantic. And

20:38

so the first time

20:40

he did it, everyone freaked out. And

20:43

then we started pushing the swing against the wall

20:46

so that he couldn't do it anymore. He got

20:48

really mad about it. But he

20:50

used to laugh. He thought it was, he

20:52

thought these things were hilarious. He loved to

20:54

play Superman. He liked to pull all of

20:57

the drawers out of the kitchen cabinets because

20:59

it was the 80s and there was

21:01

no childproofing. So there was cutlery falling

21:04

all around him. And I

21:06

remember I heard this massive noise one day

21:08

and I go into the kitchen. And I'm

21:10

like, what are you doing? And he just looks up at me

21:12

and he laughs at me. And

21:15

he laughed like Eddie Murphy. Kind

21:22

of thing that it

21:24

was the weirdest laugh. I've never heard a baby laugh

21:26

like that. He

21:28

was everything,

21:32

you know, he made

21:34

our family. Like

21:38

our family was complete with

21:40

him. I

21:49

can't help but get emotional. Yeah,

21:54

absolutely. Tell

21:57

us about the recent series.

22:00

statement that you and your family put

22:02

out? Yeah. So

22:06

like I said, we, we did a call

22:09

and email campaign for the district attorney in

22:11

Socorro County. Um, I

22:13

called it the 10 days of Jacob.

22:15

The DA lasted two days before he

22:17

emailed me and asked me to stop

22:19

it, which made me feel

22:21

really good. He

22:24

at the same time emailed the attorney

22:26

general and copied me and said, um,

22:29

I'm not able to handle this case. I

22:32

need you to take this off my hands, which

22:34

is really the only way the attorney

22:37

general could have gotten involved in this

22:39

case because it's very strict jurisdictional rules,

22:41

you know, the age you can't interfere

22:44

unless they're

22:46

completely corrupt and they can prove it. And you know, then they

22:48

have to step in for that reason. Otherwise, if everything

22:51

seems to be above board, the

22:53

DA would have to turn it over in order for them to have

22:56

it. So I was very, very grateful for that. And

22:59

that honestly gave me a lot of hope,

23:02

which was not something that

23:04

I've had for a long time.

23:07

Um, you know, it felt

23:09

pretty hopeless up until that point,

23:11

honestly, because we'd asked multiple

23:14

DAs. We even had that re-investigation

23:17

in the early 2000s. And

23:19

in that as well, you know, the, the investigator

23:21

thought that they should have, they should have charged

23:23

him back then. There was no reason. They had

23:26

all the evidence. They, they could have done it.

23:28

They just refused to. So

23:32

the attorney general takes it. We have a couple

23:34

of meetings with them. I

23:38

decided that I was going to stop talking about

23:40

the case at the time because I wanted to

23:42

give the investigators the space and the opportunity to

23:44

do a thorough investigation

23:46

without the media being all over

23:48

it. So

23:51

I stopped talking about Jacob's case. And

23:56

then there was an election and there was a

23:58

new attorney general. And

24:01

I thought that it

24:04

would be a good idea for me to interview

24:06

both the candidates that were running. Just

24:09

not so much for the show, but more

24:11

so that I could get to know them and

24:14

start to talk to them and start to build that relationship with

24:16

them. One

24:19

was much more

24:21

receptive in the conversation

24:24

than the other. The

24:27

other one was like

24:30

half an hour late and then just really

24:34

dismissive is probably the right

24:36

way to say it. And

24:40

so he actually is the one who won, which

24:43

made me nervous. But

24:46

I did know something about Raul Torres. I

24:48

knew that he cares about

24:51

being elected. He

24:53

cares about his image. He

24:56

cares about his polls. So

24:59

whether I like him or not, I can work with

25:01

that. Right. Like I can use that to my advantage.

25:04

I can make it politically unpopular for him to ignore me.

25:08

So I just kind of stayed

25:11

with status quo, but I started talking about the

25:13

case again because I knew that that

25:16

would hopefully put some pressure on them

25:18

to do something. So

25:20

we got a call in December asking us to go

25:22

to the district attorney's office. And

25:26

I will say that Hector

25:28

Bálveras was the attorney

25:30

general before Raul. In

25:34

that initial conversation with their office, he was

25:36

there. He apologized

25:38

to my mom and I on behalf of the state of

25:40

New Mexico. He admitted that the

25:42

state of New Mexico did

25:44

not do what they were supposed to do at the time.

25:48

And like I said, we felt pretty hopeful

25:50

after that conversation. For

25:54

this conversation, the fact that they wanted to

25:57

meet in person also created some hope. in

26:00

us because we felt like

26:02

surely if they were planning to give

26:04

us bad news, they would have just emailed us or,

26:07

you know, called us on the

26:09

phone, not drag us into the office to have

26:11

a conversation. Unfortunately,

26:16

when we did meet with them on January

26:18

11th or 12th, one of those

26:20

days, they said that they

26:22

didn't, they weren't going to prosecute like

26:25

Jacob's killer. And

26:27

they said that it was because there wasn't

26:30

enough evidence. And

26:33

so at first,

26:36

I was understanding

26:38

to a certain point, I think, knowing

26:43

that the confession has been missing,

26:46

knowing that probably a lot of the

26:48

medical records are going to be hard to

26:50

find, if not impossible. But

26:57

my mom and I were sitting there and we just kind

26:59

of unloaded on them. And

27:01

I told them that

27:03

I felt like New Mexico was complicit in

27:06

any other abuses

27:09

that this man perpetrated after

27:12

Jacob died, because they

27:14

refused to do anything. Knowing

27:17

that that's not this Attorney General's

27:19

office's responsibility or fault, like many

27:22

of them were children when this

27:24

happened. But

27:27

first of all, Raul wasn't there, which I'm not

27:29

saying that like

27:32

I automatically deserve an audience with the

27:34

Attorney General, but considering

27:38

what's happened with this case and considering how

27:40

screwed up it's been from the beginning, it

27:43

would have been a nice effort to

27:46

have been made on their part, in my

27:48

opinion, especially if they're going to

27:50

be delivering bad news to us. So

27:55

the only reason I bring that up is because I

27:57

think it really compares and contrasts the two different Attorney

27:59

General's office. I've been dealing with. Like

28:01

there's a difference between the two of them. I

28:04

think that's all I'm going to say about that. Everybody

28:06

else can make up their own minds. And we'll

28:09

be right back after a quick word from

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sponsors and now we're back to the program. Yeah,

29:25

there's a lot to unpack here. Some

29:28

of it is on like an emotional

29:30

level and some of it is more

29:32

in the red tape and bureaucracy of

29:34

the whole thing. But I

29:36

want to address one thing that's on

29:38

an emotional level with you is that

29:40

you brought up the word hope a few

29:42

times. Whether it's like we were

29:45

hopeful or we felt hopeless. Before

29:48

we get into more of

29:50

the pen

29:52

and paper bureaucracy and

29:55

that, how do you

29:58

manage that with your family? family with

30:00

your mother. How do you manage that roller

30:03

coaster of hope and hopelessness

30:05

and well, there, you know, if it was

30:08

bad news, they would have just emailed us.

30:11

How does that all get managed

30:14

when you're in route to meet with these people?

30:17

And then how do you manage it when you realize, wow,

30:20

that went in 180 degrees the other way. So,

30:25

you know, for myself,

30:27

I was

30:30

trying really hard to not get

30:32

excited about it. I was trying really hard to

30:34

just keep myself centered

30:37

and calm and a

30:39

little bit detached from

30:42

any outcome because

30:45

in my heart, I knew how devastated I

30:48

would be if I

30:50

got super excited about it and

30:52

then found out that it wasn't what I thought it was

30:54

going to be. But

30:58

my mom's enthusiasm and I'm

31:00

not blaming her for this

31:02

or like, you know, anything

31:04

like that, but her enthusiasm

31:06

really caused me to

31:09

get a little bit excited to get my hopes up a

31:11

little bit. And talking

31:13

to people who also agreed, who've been in

31:16

this position, you know, people that are fighting

31:18

for justice who had said they, they wouldn't

31:20

call you in for nothing,

31:23

like they wouldn't ask you to come all the way. Like

31:25

I had to drive 75 miles

31:28

to go pick my mom up and

31:30

then 70 miles up to Albuquerque. And

31:33

then 75 miles back and then 75 miles back home again. So

31:37

I did 250 miles that day. You

31:42

know what I mean? Like it wasn't just

31:44

driving down the road. So

31:46

it was hard to not

31:48

say like, and they knew that. So

31:51

it was hard for me to not be like, oh,

31:53

well, obviously this is going

31:55

to be good. So. I'm

32:00

still unpacking the emotions around

32:03

all of it. It's

32:07

just like grieving all over again.

32:09

I went through all the denial

32:11

and the anger and the bargaining

32:14

and the depression. I'm kind of like

32:16

in the depression phase right now. But

32:20

I'm going to therapy, trying to take care

32:22

of myself as much as I can. My

32:26

mom and I, we call each other when things get

32:28

hard. We listen to

32:30

each other and we lean

32:32

on each other because

32:34

nobody else understands. Like

32:37

if I didn't have her, I don't

32:40

know that I would be able to do this. You

32:44

also kind of gave a

32:46

pause when you said that you stopped talking about it

32:49

for a while. Is

32:51

that something that you look back

32:53

on and you're thinking, had I continued

32:55

talking, it would be different? Because personally

32:57

thinking, I don't think a lot of

32:59

things would be different when

33:01

you're dealing with the forces that you're

33:03

dealing with. It doesn't matter

33:05

how much you talk about it. It could be

33:08

completely different at this point, meaning you could have

33:10

been silenced a long time ago. I'm

33:12

just curious what your thoughts are. You don't

33:14

regret not talking about it, right, for

33:17

a little bit? No, I don't. I don't

33:20

regret it. I think

33:22

what I regret is the lost momentum

33:25

probably more than the decision

33:28

to not talk about it. Right,

33:30

but even then, you don't

33:32

even know if that would have been momentum. It might have

33:34

been a significant shift

33:37

where you're completely stonewalled. Yeah,

33:41

it's true. It's true. It's really – I

33:44

think that's something that people don't really

33:46

think about when they're consuming true crime

33:48

content. There's

33:50

so much more to

33:53

the story beyond the murder,

33:56

especially in Jacob's case.

33:58

It's volume-zero. In volume

34:00

are more. Beyond.

34:03

That and so. He.

34:05

Are like people get to turn their show on and

34:07

listen to it and then turn it off. We.

34:10

Don't we don't get we don't get that luxury. It's

34:12

always on for us so.

34:15

I'm. Yeah.

34:17

It's always a risk. You never

34:20

know what strategy is going to

34:22

work with. Strategy isn't gonna work.

34:24

What strategies are not going have

34:26

any effect whatsoever Like it's It's

34:28

always. It's. Like the worst

34:30

game of chess. That. You could play.

34:33

And. You mentions that the reason

34:35

they're not gonna press charges or

34:37

or pursue charges as because they

34:40

felt they didn't have enough evidence

34:42

now and we also spoke about

34:45

this confession recording that apparently isn't

34:47

able to be found but it

34:49

was a recording I guess my

34:52

my question is about i'm like

34:54

confirmation like how do you have

34:56

you know that and and you

34:59

mentioned corruption in confirmation is this

35:01

what you meant. Are part

35:03

of what you meant Might talking to

35:06

Patrick Apodaca, the investigator that was involved

35:08

in the case, really confirmed a lot

35:10

of my suspicions. A

35:13

lease? On anecdotal level. I don't know

35:15

that. Aside. From A

35:17

here's the thing I think like I

35:19

can't prove right now for everything Patrick

35:21

is saying is true, right? But given

35:24

all the circumstances and given everything that

35:26

I know about the case. It's.

35:29

The most. Logical.

35:31

Conclusion to come to in this case

35:33

in my opinion. But

35:36

I've never been able to. Feel.

35:38

Comfortable to say that. Until

35:40

I heard it from that Police

35:43

Officers mouth. If that makes

35:45

any sense. He confirmed what I've always

35:47

suspected. Ah, But I

35:49

never wanted to fully fear until I knew

35:51

for a fact because I wasn't there. I

35:53

don't know what happened. You know it could

35:55

have been negligence, but when you have somebody

35:58

who took the actual confession. telling

36:00

you that he knew they were going to

36:02

cover it up. It's

36:04

pretty compelling to me. And this was

36:07

something that that PI that you said

36:09

ghosted you was sort

36:11

of facilitating. Yeah,

36:13

she started the conversation and then as soon

36:16

as that came out, she

36:18

stopped talking to me. Oh,

36:21

is this like related? Do you think

36:23

like it wasn't like a PI who

36:25

took the money and, and

36:27

said, you know, my job here is done.

36:29

Or we didn't pay her to

36:32

do anything like this person didn't even

36:34

take money. She was refusing to be

36:36

paid and promising that she was

36:38

going to do all this stuff, but she never did. And

36:41

and, you know, who knows what happened? Like maybe she

36:43

had something happen in her life. I don't know. I'm

36:46

not I'm not going to cast any,

36:49

you know, suspicions on her

36:51

because I don't have any

36:53

reason to. But it is weird that

36:55

she did disappear after all that happened. But

36:58

yeah, I guess that's the confirmation that I

37:00

was talking about. And I just want to

37:03

be clear for people listening. The PI didn't

37:05

take money. You

37:07

don't have contact with this person anymore. Who

37:10

is or what was

37:12

the last person or

37:14

I guess department?

37:17

What was the last communication she had with someone

37:19

other than you? As far as I know, it

37:21

was just with Patrick Apodaca. She

37:23

claimed that she went to the hospital to try to get records

37:26

there and had my mom

37:28

sign a form for that. But we never we never

37:31

heard back whether she obtained those records or not.

37:34

That's odd. That's odd. I

37:38

know. Like

37:41

I said, it's going to sound crazy, right? Like all

37:44

of this is weird. I

37:46

wish I was making it up. I

37:48

really do. Yeah. Well, where where

37:51

do you go from here? What what's your next move? So.

38:00

Don't want to give away too much of

38:02

what what we're planning, but I'm. You

38:05

can expect that I'm going to continue. Talking.

38:08

About this: ah, you can expect that

38:11

I'm probably going to be. Reaching

38:14

out to national media sources, Because.

38:18

It's. Now my

38:20

mission to. First.

38:22

Of all, make sure that this person cannot

38:24

hurt anybody ever again. I'm.

38:27

I'm going to hire an actual T I,

38:29

somebody who doesn't live in New Mexico, somebody

38:31

who has to fly in and doesn't know

38:33

anything about what's going on here. I'm. An

38:37

eternity paranoid than whatever. I don't

38:39

care, but that's what we're doing.

38:42

We're probably going to hire a

38:44

civil attorney as well to explore

38:46

potential civil. Litigation.

38:48

If that's a possibility, it may

38:50

not be, but I'd like to

38:52

at least explore that often And.

38:55

I'm. Gonna shine a light. On.

38:58

All. The Problems here in New

39:00

Mexico and I really hope. That.

39:03

The Attorney general enjoyed his job or we had it.

39:07

At a great line that I I feel.

39:10

I. Feel like you should and the episode

39:12

that were would. there's too much conversation that

39:14

needs to happen right now. This is officer.

39:16

If you have something just as powerful for

39:19

the for the actual end of the episode,

39:21

feel free to use it while you can

39:23

get outta here and the my can use

39:25

that at the end if you just plug

39:27

it in at the end. guess you'd say

39:30

previously and then he just said now you

39:32

want to make sure that the suspects does

39:34

not hurt anybody else doesn't have the opportunity

39:36

to hurt anybody else and he said previously

39:39

other abuses that this person. Might have

39:41

perpetrated is there is evidence of

39:43

other abuses aside from yourself, your

39:45

mom and Jacob that you know

39:48

of. I'm. There's

39:53

very strong suspicions. And.

39:58

With we have enough number. Reason for

40:00

having those suspicions that I'm

40:02

not really uncomfortable elaborating on

40:04

right now, but I I

40:07

think that the possibility. Of.

40:09

Him changing his

40:11

behavior knowing. The

40:14

type of. Psychology

40:16

or cut type of behavior

40:18

to this person exhibits. He's

40:20

classic, right? He's the gregarious,

40:22

happy, funny, friendly guy. gets

40:24

along with everybody. everybody loves

40:27

him and then behind closed

40:29

doors. It's like the Doctor

40:31

Jekyll Mr. Hyde situation where

40:33

he becomes a complete monster.

40:35

I'm. So. In

40:38

my mind and knowing what I know

40:40

about those types of people, they don't.

40:43

Get better. On. Their own.

40:45

They don't just stop what

40:47

they're doing. They continue to

40:49

be predatory until they physically

40:51

can't. Normally. So.

40:55

The chance of him hurting other people's very

40:57

high. And. So

41:01

even if. The. Attorney

41:03

General or the City Mexico

41:05

refuses to bring charges on

41:07

this particular case. It's.

41:10

Not. About. Vengeance.

41:13

For. Me and my mom. It's. About

41:15

sure that he tapped her. Anybody else

41:17

me sad thirty seven years to do

41:19

that. So. When we

41:21

hire a private investigator if they

41:23

uncover evidence of crimes that have

41:26

come been committed beyond. What?

41:28

Happened with Jacob in my family. And

41:31

that happened to get turned over to police. And.

41:36

Fire. I don't care. It's not about.

41:39

Having to go to trial for Jacob about the

41:41

fact that this man is a danger. To

41:44

anybody who's around him. And

41:47

so when I say things like I haven't. Said.

41:49

His name yet? Because that's

41:51

something I'm. Are. Very

41:53

strongly considering so that people can protect

41:55

themselves from this person. And

41:59

is he still. Local love

42:01

to New Mexico. So

42:03

actually found out that.

42:06

My. Mom confronted him. In

42:08

Walmart. And.

42:11

Because. He had been kind of following her around. The.

42:14

Store and for see. Just went

42:16

up to him and said. I'm

42:19

You're nothing but a fucking baby murderer.

42:21

As loud as she good and he took

42:23

off. So good

42:26

for my mom! Predator.

42:28

For that on. The.

42:30

Other thing that happened

42:33

is. I.

42:35

Did. Publicly. Announced to the case

42:37

of been reopened and shortly after that and

42:39

after that encounter with my mom his. He.

42:42

Inherited his parents' home when they died

42:44

and that was boarded up. And

42:46

he has not been seen so.

42:49

Some. His family have said that they don't know

42:52

where he is. I don't know that all of

42:54

them don't know where he is, but some of

42:56

them don't know where he is Am. I

42:58

don't know if he's hiding gore or what's

43:00

happening, but. It's. Interesting. An

43:03

interesting thing to know. He boarded up

43:05

lake. Houses. Like.

43:08

When know we have been occupied. Yeah.

43:11

No windows, no doors. The everything's nailed

43:14

shut. I gotta say

43:16

like a at some point we

43:18

have to have you and your

43:20

mom on because you told stories

43:22

about your mother several times and

43:24

for her to do that in

43:26

in Walmart. Is pretty

43:28

bad ass and. Pretty.

43:31

Admirable. I had any I knew

43:34

use the term vengeance like this

43:36

isn't something that is. You know,

43:38

vengeance for us, but there's something

43:41

there, right lake? There has to

43:43

be some retribution. I mean.

43:46

When. When you say vengeance, I I

43:48

personally think like I'm fine with vengeance

43:51

or something like this, but there has

43:53

to be some sort of retribution. I

43:55

can be a vindictive person. I can.

43:58

It's as to who I am, some. In

44:01

this situation, it's not

44:03

about me anymore. And

44:06

it is because, yes, I'm a co-victim,

44:08

okay? I get that. But

44:11

I'm okay now. I'm

44:14

safe. My mom is

44:16

safe now. It

44:19

terrifies me to think about somebody

44:21

else falling

44:23

into his hands. That's my priority.

44:26

Of course I want him to be held accountable

44:28

for what he did. Of course I do.

44:31

But if that's not the avenue that's going to

44:33

get the result that I want, which is for

44:35

him to not be able to hurt anybody else, then

44:38

whatever other avenue it's going to take, let's

44:40

do that one. I don't care. I

44:43

guess that was my point, if that makes sense. Yeah,

44:45

that absolutely makes sense. And one

44:47

of the other things I wrote down here

44:50

was identifying the behavior of people who are

44:53

like this person. And that's

44:56

something that you can carry through by

44:59

saying, here are the warning signs that I

45:01

saw. And if you know anybody in

45:03

your life who is exhibiting

45:05

these similar warning

45:08

signs that I saw, that needs to be a red

45:10

flag. What are some of those warning

45:12

signs that you look back on now and

45:15

you say, I was so clearly a dangerous

45:17

person, I just didn't know because I was so young?

45:21

Yeah. I

45:24

think the first thing is disarming. That's

45:29

usually the first thing that somebody that is

45:32

trying to be predatory with another

45:35

person will do. And

45:38

it comes in a number of ways. The first

45:40

thing that this person chose to disarm

45:43

my mom and I was was with

45:45

love bombing, which, if

45:47

you don't know what that is, it's when somebody

45:50

that you maybe kind of

45:52

know or barely know starts

45:55

to shower you with attention and affection.

46:00

is no apparent

46:02

cause. So

46:05

much so that it feels uncomfortable.

46:10

But I think

46:12

human nature is just to kind of be

46:14

like, well, this person's really nice. So

46:17

maybe I'm just being too

46:19

critical. Maybe I'm just overthinking

46:21

this. And

46:23

typically, the people that they're going to

46:25

pray on are people who are vulnerable.

46:27

So my mom at the time had

46:29

just separated from her husband that

46:32

she married when she was 17 years

46:34

old, that she has two kids with.

46:37

She had four kids with, but one

46:40

dies at birth and one was miscarried.

46:43

But she

46:45

just left her husband. She had just left Texas

46:48

with her kids without

46:50

a job, having to move back

46:52

in with her parents. So she was

46:55

the perfect victim. He

46:57

also, they knew each

46:59

other. They went to school together. He was my dad's

47:01

best friend. So completely

47:04

disarmed all of us.

47:07

He showered me with attention, which was something

47:09

I didn't get from my dad. My dad

47:12

was very rarely present in my life. If

47:15

I wanted to eat candy for dinner, I was

47:17

allowed to eat candy for dinner. So it was

47:20

just a way to make us feel

47:23

like everything was okay when honestly

47:25

it was a trap. I

47:29

remember the first time that we had spoke, you

47:31

use the term love bombing as well. And I'd

47:33

never heard that. And I looked it up and

47:35

I was absolutely blown

47:38

away by that and recognized

47:40

it in the relationships with

47:42

some of our, my

47:45

partner and I, like mutual friends that we

47:47

have that went through abuse and

47:49

described the same thing. So I can't

47:53

even like emphasize how important that

47:55

is because you just like,

47:57

it's a vulnerable situation that they're taking advantage

47:59

of. of that should be your

48:02

first clue that something's wrong honestly

48:04

like and I'm not saying that

48:06

people should be leery of anybody who's nice

48:09

to them like it's a completely different level

48:11

it's where almost to the

48:13

point where they're basically saying that they

48:15

love you and you've only been seeing each other

48:17

for like a few nights you

48:20

know like I'm starting to feel

48:22

like I'm falling for you and my world is

48:24

changed because like three days into the relationship like

48:26

what are you talking about those

48:28

things should give people pause but

48:31

if you get through that and you

48:33

don't recognize it and you don't leave at that

48:35

point there are other things to look for right

48:37

are you being isolated from your support

48:40

network is

48:42

your money being controlled is your communication

48:44

being controlled is where you need

48:46

to be and when you need to be there

48:48

and how you need to be in those places

48:51

being controlled are the

48:53

things that you're allowed to say controlled

49:00

coercive control is a huge part of

49:02

this and once they've demeaned

49:05

you and beat you down and controlled you enough

49:08

that's when they start to really amp things

49:11

up so it's kind of an escalation

49:13

of behavior that gets progressively worse so the

49:16

sooner you recognize it and the sooner you

49:18

get out the better off you're going to

49:20

be honestly well that's

49:22

very informative stuff thank you

49:24

thank you for sharing that you

49:28

mentioned Twitter recently

49:30

I think before we started

49:33

rolling and there was

49:35

a tweet that you put out today as

49:37

we record this on January 29th 2024 and it

49:39

sort of called out the New Mexico DOJ

49:46

and the sakura PD

49:48

can you tell us a little bit about this

49:51

this tweet okay well first of all I do have

49:53

to tell you that this is not even a joke

49:55

and I wish it was so

49:58

the New Mexico attorney general the day

50:00

before they pulled us into their

50:02

office, rebranded their office

50:05

as the New Mexico Department of Justice.

50:08

So if you look a couple

50:10

of replies below that,

50:12

you'll see that I actually had my

50:16

friend Whitney from Navigating Advocacy

50:18

redo their logo and now it says

50:20

the New Mexico Department of Injustice, which

50:23

I'm probably going to sell as merchandise and

50:25

donate to whoever is running against Raul Torres.

50:28

And we'll be right back after a quick word

50:31

from our sponsors. Thanks

50:34

to our sponsors. And now we're back to the program. I

50:38

am, like I said at the beginning of

50:40

this episode, I'm pissed. I'm pissed off. It's,

50:43

it's ridiculous that

50:47

we've had to fight so hard

50:50

for something that should have been done right in the

50:52

first place. Like if

50:55

they would have done their job, I

50:58

wouldn't have been molested. My

51:01

mom wouldn't have been beat up. So

51:04

many horrible things wouldn't have happened if

51:07

they would have just done their jobs in

51:09

1987. If they would have put

51:12

their friendship aside and

51:14

done the right thing. Because

51:17

how is it okay not

51:20

only to kill a baby, that's

51:23

bad. That's the worst thing

51:25

ever. I'm not saying I'm not minimizing that,

51:27

but on top of that to just be

51:29

like, it's

51:32

cool. Just let this guy hang

51:34

out and be free. No big deal. And

51:37

so I've played the game for the

51:39

last three years, 37 years,

51:42

but really for the last three years, I've, I've

51:44

tried to play nice. I've tried to do the

51:47

respectful thing and I tried to be quiet about

51:49

a lot of the things that have bothered me

51:52

because I just, it didn't

51:54

matter to me as long as the case was progressing.

51:57

So now that we're here, like. A

52:00

gloves are off man like I'm done.

52:02

I'm not saying knife anymore. I'm not

52:04

sugar coating anything. I'm gonna tell exactly

52:06

like it is. I'm going to sign

52:08

a spotlight on the problems here because

52:10

we can't hope to fix any of

52:12

this like I'm not the only person

52:14

my family were not the only ones

52:16

that are dealing with as this is

52:18

happening all the time in New Mexico

52:21

and. See why ft the

52:23

child you can family's apartment. Is.

52:25

Completely useless. And.

52:28

It's not. The. Social workers fault.

52:31

It. Isn't it? It is the state

52:33

government's fault. Because they're

52:35

unwilling unwilling to do the things

52:38

that are necessary to fix it.

52:41

It. Is. Just like probably

52:43

all other child protective services

52:45

agencies in the country, under

52:48

staffed, over worked, under funded.

52:50

All of those things. But.

52:53

At some point we've gotta stop making

52:56

excuses. And. We've got to set up and do

52:58

the work that it's going to take to fix it. Because.

53:00

Every time a kid dies in New

53:03

Mexico, people just drop their hands and

53:05

are like oh wow, this always happens

53:07

but I guess nothing's gonna change and

53:09

I'm sick of it. I'm

53:11

sick of it. so. It's. My

53:13

missing now I'm gonna call it out

53:15

are going to make it unpopular for

53:18

our elected officials to ignore this problem

53:20

as they continue to do for decades.

53:23

Enough is enough. I've I've.

53:25

Tried. To do with a nice way

53:27

A tried to follow the bureaucracy. They don't

53:30

give a shit. And. So now

53:32

if you lose your job and you're an elected

53:34

official because I'm spouting off at the mouth good.

53:38

Good. He should be ashamed

53:40

of herself. Yeah.

53:42

Well said and the fact

53:44

that like excuses are used

53:46

like they're understaffed and under

53:48

funded. But then you look

53:50

at another side of an

53:52

argument where they're talking about

53:54

the infrastructure in your roads

53:56

and they justify. billions

53:59

of dollars into infrastructure and

54:01

then with

54:05

the same, you know, in the

54:07

same news conference they talk about

54:09

the importance of empowering youth and

54:11

and the future of this country

54:14

and then they don't have the

54:16

proper systems in place to protect

54:18

children because they're understaffed and underfunded

54:20

but all of all

54:24

of different monies go to

54:26

different things that don't go to what

54:29

the future is that they're talking about

54:31

so it's a giant piece of hypocrisy

54:34

huge and

54:37

don't be just like don't be like

54:39

what do I want to say I

54:43

don't even know I'm like so mad right now I don't even

54:46

know what I was gonna say but essentially like don't

54:49

mistake that those excuses

54:51

like the people that write the

54:53

budgets are the ones making the excuses

54:57

right they're blaming this

54:59

nebulous problem that

55:01

they are involved in

55:03

creating right right

55:06

and and it's layers upon layers of

55:08

hypocrisy and it's been that way for generations

55:10

so people like I guess that's what it

55:12

is I guess I guess that's

55:14

where the priorities are so good on

55:17

you for just being like I'm pissed and I'm gonna

55:19

try to change it you're directly

55:21

involved in it you have a significant

55:23

hand in the game so good on

55:26

you for that fuck them like why

55:28

why that you you're

55:30

putting them in office you know it's it's our

55:32

tax dollars right like that's your job

55:35

right and you're failing and you're failing

55:37

you're failing and you're making excuses

55:40

mm-hmm yeah it's

55:42

that simple it's that simple it really is yeah

55:45

and we all look at our jobs

55:47

too we're like if I ever was

55:49

so negligent at my job Tim would fire

55:51

me that

55:53

was terrible joke sorry

55:57

but you know if we were all so

55:59

negligent like If we all just like drop

56:01

the ball so many times on the direct

56:03

purpose of our jobs, so

56:06

many times, people

56:08

in the position to fire,

56:11

those people would just have no

56:13

problem doing it. Exactly. Exactly.

56:17

Which is why I have no problem calling

56:19

them out. Yeah.

56:21

Because why not? Somebody has to. Yeah.

56:24

Like really, what are they going to do? Yeah. Hopefully,

56:26

they'll change. Well, they haven't done anything yet, so

56:28

I would be surprised if they did anything now.

56:31

Honestly, I'm convinced

56:33

that the case was not investigated.

56:37

I am. And

56:39

I started kind of going there. I

56:41

did think that I felt

56:45

like I was giving them the benefit of the doubt in

56:47

that meeting. But

56:49

a couple of things happened. Upon

56:51

reflection, that bothered me. The

56:54

first one was when

56:56

they said, well, after

56:58

they kind of gave me the evidence always

57:00

disappear speech, which I, of

57:02

course, rolled my eyes to and

57:04

said, it shouldn't. Then

57:09

they said, well, you know, there was a

57:11

fire in the 90s at the DA's office.

57:14

And I said, yeah. And then

57:16

I asked, well, you know that he was a

57:18

custodian for the county and had the keys to

57:21

every building, right? And

57:23

they said, what? They

57:27

were shocked.

57:30

Shocked. I

57:32

gave them my file. My

57:35

mom's file, honestly, it

57:38

had his pay stubs in there. Like

57:41

they didn't even have to dig for

57:43

that. It was there.

57:46

They had no idea. No clue. Nothing

57:49

was done. Right. And it

57:53

just shows you there's no effort

57:56

put forth here. I've

58:00

never made it me and

58:02

my mom, but I

58:04

don't think that they'll do that again. As

58:06

we wrap up, I would love to know

58:08

about your family. Uh, you said

58:12

you had a son. Yeah, I have

58:15

a son. He's 18 years old. Um,

58:17

I have a husband. Yeah. Yeah.

58:22

He's 18. Uh, I have a

58:24

husband. I have a chuckle,

58:27

chihuahua, pug, beagle mix. He's

58:30

basically a cat that barks and

58:34

poops outside. A chihuahua, pug,

58:36

beagle mix. What's the temperament like

58:38

on an animal like that? He's

58:41

basically a cat. He just lays in the sun all

58:43

day and yeah, he's not yappy.

58:46

He's just pretty lazy mostly.

58:50

Yeah. He's like Garfield kind of

58:53

loves, loves lasagna. Loves lasagna.

58:57

What do you tell your son about what

59:01

you're working on here? What do you tell him

59:03

about Jacob? Oh, uh,

59:05

he knows, he knows the whole story. You

59:07

know, I, as I started this process

59:10

of, of advocating for justice publicly,

59:13

I really wanted to just give

59:15

him the information before that

59:17

happened so that he wouldn't stumble

59:19

upon it and find it on his own. He

59:22

already knew that my brother was killed and he already knew

59:24

some of it, but he didn't know the whole story. And

59:27

so I, I felt it was

59:29

important. It's, it's family history as, as

59:32

sad and terrible as it is. Um,

59:35

it's something important to know. It's also, I think important for

59:37

him to know what drives me and what keeps me going

59:39

and, and what lights a fire

59:41

under my ass. And

59:43

so I, I told him everything and

59:46

you know, he, he was obviously upset

59:49

by it and he gave me a big hug and he was crying. Um,

59:53

but he, he supports my mom and I

59:55

and, and he cheers us on and he's

59:57

there to, to hug us whenever.

1:00:00

things go wrong and he's a

1:00:02

great kid. Great man now,

1:00:04

I guess I should say. Wow, well

1:00:06

this has been another great conversation,

1:00:08

Eric. Is

1:00:10

there anything else you'd like to say here before

1:00:13

we wrap up for tonight? I just wanna

1:00:15

thank both of you for sharing your platform

1:00:17

with me, not just tonight, but

1:00:20

also when I needed it for

1:00:22

Jacob's case, it really means a lot to me.

1:00:25

I wanna thank your listeners for their

1:00:27

engagement and caring about justice for

1:00:29

Jacob. And if it wasn't

1:00:32

for creators like you, for listeners like

1:00:34

you who are listening right now, we

1:00:37

wouldn't have gotten the case where it is without

1:00:39

you. And so we are forever

1:00:42

grateful to all of you for

1:00:44

your part in this. We'll

1:00:46

never be able to thank you enough or

1:00:49

repay you for what you've done for us. Thank

1:00:52

you. Thank

1:00:58

you.