0:02

We are coming back. Their land right

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right? Mark your calendars totally that you

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go to Black Opec that com flour

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talk out to them will see. The

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imagine you're a fly on the wall at

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a dinner between the Mafia, the Cia and

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the Kgb. That's where my

0:36

new podcast begins. This is Neil Strauss

0:38

host to Live and Die in L

0:40

A. And I wanted to quickly

0:43

tell you about an intense new series about

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a dangerous by taught to seduce men for

0:47

their secrets and sometimes. Their. Lives

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contender for Tv. This.

0:51

Is to die for. To.

0:53

Die For is available now. listen for

0:56

free on the I Heart Radio app.

0:58

Apple. Podcasts or wherever you get

1:00

your podcasts. Are typecast of

1:02

the to This week your free I already

1:04

have Photo or Guy to Espionage a Sixty

1:06

zero spy story of the world's first and

1:09

greatest travel writer Eugene Photo or as he

1:11

just sits around the globe tongue on broke

1:13

in season two, this podcast explores complex concepts

1:15

of identity, resilience, eraser and genocide. Table for

1:17

two seasons to think of the show as

1:19

a deconstructed Oscar party and podcast form. Each

1:21

episode takes place over the romance of a

1:23

meal and feels like you're seated next to

1:25

a different guess at that dinner. These podcasts

1:28

and more on your free I Radio app

1:30

or wherever you get your podcasts. Well.

1:35

I'm so glad that you're hitting think

1:37

he sent money in terms of damage

1:39

to having. You know how come my

1:41

little cultural hot when little cultural anthropology

1:43

which is how I love to live

1:45

like? Think about a tip from now.

1:50

Hello! I'm many driver. I've

1:52

always loved priests question that it

1:54

was originally and nineteenth century parlor

1:57

game where players would ask each

1:59

other. 35 questions aimed

2:01

at revealing the other player's true

2:03

nature. In asking different

2:05

people the same set of questions, you

2:08

can make observations about which truths appear

2:10

to be universal. And it made me

2:12

wonder, what if these questions were just

2:14

a jumping off point? What greater depths

2:16

would be revealed if I asked these

2:19

questions as conversation starters? So I adapted

2:21

Prue's Questionnaire and I wrote my own

2:23

seven questions that I personally think a

2:25

pertinent to a person's story. They

2:27

are, when and where were you happiest? What

2:30

is the quality you like least about yourself? What

2:33

relationship, real or fictionalized, defines

2:35

love for you? What question would

2:37

you most like answered? What

2:40

person, place or experience has shaped you

2:42

the most? What would be your last

2:44

meal? And can you tell me

2:46

something in your life that's grown out of a

2:48

personal disaster? And I've

2:50

gathered a group of really remarkable

2:52

people, ones that I am honored and

2:54

humbled to have had the chance to

2:57

engage with. You may not

2:59

hear their answers to all seven of

3:01

these questions. We've whittled it down to

3:03

which questions felt closest to their

3:05

experience or the most surprising

3:07

or created the most fertile

3:09

ground to connect. My

3:14

guest today on Mini-Questions is

3:16

the actor and all-round excellent

3:18

person, Lucy Boynton. I

3:20

first met Lucy when we were shooting the film

3:22

Chevalier in Prague. Over the course

3:25

of promoting a film, you get to spend

3:27

time with the people in it and Lucy

3:29

is just one of the most interesting and

3:31

thoughtful women I've met in a long time.

3:34

She considers things. I'm

3:36

really inspired by how she doesn't just quickly

3:38

answer a question when it's posed, a full

3:40

space to hold the floor, but

3:42

rather takes her time responding and then

3:44

revels in the answer. She

3:47

attributes this to having grown up in a

3:49

household of journalists where the question was the

3:51

thing. Actors are funny people.

3:53

I mean funny, peculiar by that. We

3:56

appear extrovert when there is actually a

3:58

whole other inward-facing person. Interrogation homes

4:00

and ones and if any of it

4:03

sets of the consensus. Cc.

4:05

Gracefully inhabit spicy sauce that are only

4:07

supposed to seeing her and to watching

4:10

what so she chooses to make and

4:12

particular you. Looking forward to seeing the

4:14

greatest hits a newest movie out now

4:17

on. His is. Where

4:21

and when when you happiest. So

4:25

hard to answer because I think. They are

4:27

my answer to that with change their

4:29

much overtime pay some why I current

4:31

me wrong and they were and current

4:34

mean seeking but I think the one

4:36

that really springs to mind is. I

4:39

had a five day period

4:41

in Twenty Twenty One where

4:43

I had just finished filming

4:45

Be at Chris File. And

4:48

I was about to go on to this. Mini series

4:50

and I had such as a quarantine. By

4:53

back on me as to that and

4:55

I was so content. I just finished

4:57

a job that was one of. The

5:00

best times of my life. Personal experience

5:02

wise. unwise, I was about to gone

5:04

something I loved so much and that

5:07

in terms of work that's been kind.

5:09

As the dream forever ceiling

5:11

say senate and feeling. Inspired

5:14

by an energized by it and I

5:16

had just and so rewarding watching the

5:18

says printing people as well that I'm

5:20

still said closely at so it was

5:22

pretty pass me. Impact was well as

5:24

caf you'd have time I just felt

5:26

contentment. I had to the robots

5:28

and seat once and see said for

5:31

her the best time was the time

5:33

between when one job ended but you

5:35

knew apple on was beginning. A living

5:38

is so many actors have to ceiling

5:40

of. we'd never know when

5:42

the next job is coming from

5:44

i mean if you're one of

5:47

most actors to see that feeling

5:49

of safety bookended by work do

5:51

you think that safety for you

5:53

is part of contentment that be

5:55

incredible instability of being an actor

5:57

not knowing about south wales mortgage?

6:01

Or can I look a year down

6:03

the line and is it okay if I go

6:05

on holiday? Is it okay if I make plans

6:07

for my future financially because I have no idea

6:09

if I'm going to be able to underwrite that

6:11

with work? Like exactly the safety factor into happiness

6:13

for you? Totally, because it also

6:15

gives you a momentary sense of

6:17

structure of your life kind of like what you're

6:19

saying, but it allows me to

6:21

understand where I'll be and when. So then

6:23

I can start to shape my life. So

6:26

in that pocket of time, I felt that

6:29

satisfied feeling of being exhausted by

6:31

something that you loved. Something

6:33

is on the horizon, but now I'm dipping

6:35

back into my life life and I'm present

6:37

with my friends and family again. And I

6:39

know where I'll be for the next chunk

6:41

of time. So I can also start to shape

6:44

my personal life in a

6:47

way that when you don't know when you're working next, you

6:49

can't. So what do you think

6:51

the attraction of this itinerancy is

6:53

in this life that we live? Because it's certainly

6:55

nothing that anyone... So funny,

6:58

everyone always talked about the unemployment as an actor, but

7:00

no one ever went. You better get

7:02

ready to live out of a suitcase for the

7:04

rest of your life and miss weddings,

7:07

miss funerals, miss christenings, miss birthdays, miss

7:10

big family events. Why

7:12

is it so compelling? I think there

7:14

is just something appealing about,

7:16

I don't know where I'll be this time

7:19

next month or next

7:21

year. And I feed

7:23

off of that. And I think there's a

7:25

certain element, whether it's kind of partially self-destructive

7:27

or just this thrill of the unknown, that

7:29

your life hasn't fallen into a pattern because

7:31

I personally wouldn't be able to enjoy

7:34

that. The thing is, I don't know how people

7:36

do it with families. I don't know how you

7:38

manage it once you have kids because I've

7:41

done this since I was 12 and I've

7:43

always been really free. I can drop

7:45

everything and go somewhere next week and just

7:47

hop on a plane wherever I need to be.

7:49

I can be. That has increasingly, as I

7:52

get older, I find it harder to

7:54

realize how sometimes I can be

7:56

the friend who can't really depend on. I'm

7:58

less dependable in my personal life. because

8:00

of all of this. And I'm struggling with that

8:02

more and more as I get older. It's such

8:04

a good point that I have felt

8:06

like such a bad friend. Even though

8:08

I know my love remains constant always

8:11

for my family. Totally. But

8:13

you kind of let yourself off the hook a little bit

8:15

because it's always been this way, because it's always been

8:17

this kind of, you know, add the blue, I'll be the

8:19

other side of the world, and I forgot to mention that.

8:22

It's a weird life. I don't have an enormous amount

8:24

of friends, I think, as a result of it.

8:26

I mean, I have very few but very, very

8:28

good friends. Yes, exactly. You don't

8:30

have the time to maintain the sort of

8:32

peripheral nice friendships that lovely people have over

8:34

for dinner once every few months. But I

8:37

don't have anyone like that. Because if I'm

8:39

home, there are like four people that

8:41

I've got to see. I don't know when I'm going

8:43

to be gone. OK,

8:49

so what question would you most like

8:51

answered? I don't

8:53

know. I've been racking my brains at

8:56

this and I have no answer. I

8:58

reject your question. Pah. I'm

9:01

someone who feels quite content at the

9:03

unknown. I don't want to know about

9:05

an afterlife. I don't want to know.

9:07

That's good, though. That's very no one

9:09

has ever said that. I am extremely

9:11

content with the unknown. That's

9:13

really present. It excites

9:16

me more because it means that there's

9:18

no definitive answer. It means there's just so

9:20

much more space for your own interpretation or

9:22

to just sit in it as is and

9:24

makes you much more present. And I

9:26

don't know. Yeah, I'm not trying to control

9:28

things with answers. So hold on.

9:31

So you come from a family

9:33

who quite literally, because they're journalists,

9:35

are expected to have answers in

9:37

a way about cultural relevance, about

9:40

politics, the facts of science. So

9:42

it feels like it's with quite

9:44

an answer based sort of

9:46

environment. So how do you fit

9:49

into that? I think

9:51

it's the inverse. It's question based

9:53

environment. So they source the answers

9:55

from the experts,

9:57

from the people who do know and their

9:59

job. is to facilitate

10:01

and ask the right questions

10:04

to invite that conversation. And so

10:06

maybe that's why then, because yeah,

10:08

sitting around that table, it's always been

10:10

the most intellectually simulating

10:12

debate, but without any kind of

10:15

definitive answer, it's always an awareness

10:17

of unless you're stating statistics,

10:19

you're stating interpretation. That is

10:22

interesting because it's all dovetailed into like

10:24

the comfort level with

10:27

untetheredness. And I don't mean that in the

10:29

way that it is applied to women and

10:32

mental health. I mean that in terms of...

10:34

The point of the all untetheredness. No, of

10:37

again, the itinerancy of being an actor,

10:40

the idea of being so present, or

10:43

being more interested in the present

10:45

than in the unknown or sitting

10:48

worrying about, gosh, I wonder what the answer to

10:50

that is rather than, what is it

10:52

Rilke said? Keep asking the questions until you

10:55

live the answers. So you live

10:57

the answer in a present moment rather than sort

10:59

of seeking it as a thing that's always just

11:01

up ahead. Yeah. And I think it keeps

11:03

you open to the idea that there's

11:05

no definitive answer, that it's just like a collection

11:08

of information and you kind of quilt

11:10

that together. Oh my God. And you're okay with that?

11:12

And that's the form. Yeah. Yes,

11:16

because it frees me, I think. I'm not

11:18

trying to get to an end result. Oh

11:20

my God. I think I would kind of reject

11:22

that. I say that to myself. I

11:24

wrote a book with that as the

11:26

central thesis, clearly because it

11:28

is something I long to

11:31

be able to really fundamentally know there

11:33

is no there there. It is here and only

11:36

here. And that's completely

11:38

fine. That's brilliant. I think isn't that the

11:40

most freeing thing there? Because it's like this

11:42

idea that, I don't know when you just

11:44

sit in the idea that everything

11:47

is made up and it's all just happening now.

11:49

And it is all

11:51

fiction. I agree. And it's a

11:53

fiction that we've been... Yeah, giant

11:55

playground. And so it just immediately becomes,

11:57

I mean, farcical. I

12:00

think you've got a right light, you know. Look out,

12:02

point him, babe. The world's

12:04

burning. All

12:32

these girls were sent out into

12:35

the world and they were told,

12:37

try to meet important men, try

12:39

to attach yourself to important men.

12:41

The voice you're hearing is a Russian

12:43

model agent, telling me about spies sent

12:46

out to seduce men with political power.

12:48

The war in Ukraine is also

12:51

being fought by all these girls

12:53

that are all over important cities.

12:56

For the first time, a military-trained

12:58

seduction spy reveals how the Russian

13:00

government turned sex and love into

13:02

a deadly weapon. If

13:04

you want to kill the target,

13:07

it's easy. You just seduce him,

13:10

take him somewhere, start

13:12

having sex and then he's very vulnerable so

13:14

you can kill him easily. To

13:17

Die For is available now. Listen

13:19

for free on the iHeartRadio app

13:21

Apple Podcasts or wherever you get

13:23

your podcasts. This

13:30

week on your free iHeartRadio app, Fodor's

13:32

guide to espionage. A 60-0 spy story

13:34

of the world's first and greatest travel

13:36

writer Eugene Fodor. As he just says

13:38

around the... Scene unbroken, season 2. This

13:40

podcast explores complex concepts of identity, resilience,

13:42

erasure and genocide. See you for two,

13:44

season 2. Think of the show as

13:46

a deconstructed Oscar party in podcast form.

13:48

Each episode takes place over the romance

13:51

of a meal and feels like you're seated next

13:53

to a different guest at bed dinner. Hear these

13:55

podcasts and more on your free iHeartRadio app or

13:57

wherever you get your podcasts. restaurants

14:00

in the world, there's a table in the

14:02

corner. We're the most incredible conversations on

14:04

the planet are happening every

14:06

week with owner Ruthie Rogers, an

14:09

amazing guest. Like Martha Stewart,

14:11

Jimmy Fallon, and Paul McCartney. John

14:19

and I hitchhiked to Paris. We

14:21

saved you a seat. Ruthie's Table 4.

14:24

Listen to Ruthie's Table 4 on the

14:26

iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your

14:28

podcast. What

14:37

relationship, real or fictionalized,

14:39

defined love for you? All

14:42

my female friendships and

14:44

predominantly, only when I was thinking about this question,

14:47

did I actually take time to really analyze the

14:49

relationships in my life. And

14:51

I think we talk about romantic relationships so much

14:53

more and romanticize them, whereas like

14:56

female friendships and best friendships, we just don't. And

14:58

my friend, Ellen, I've been my best friend since we were

15:01

11. It's been

15:03

so unconditional. It's been so

15:06

dependable. And we've

15:09

just given each other so

15:11

much grace to really grow and change

15:14

as people. And in so

15:16

many ways, we're really different. And

15:18

yet, relentlessly, we're still there for each

15:20

other. And it's just, it's kind of

15:22

remarkable. What you just described is

15:25

probably the ideal of what a relationship would

15:27

be with a romantic partner. Maybe

15:30

just as women. That's

15:32

how the trajectory has always been. That's what you're

15:34

aiming for. I love that your

15:36

definition of love is the female friendship. You

15:38

have the blueprint for that in your life.

15:41

And that one doesn't really need much outside

15:43

of that, I don't think. I'm very interested

15:45

in why we're pushed on romantic relationships so

15:47

much more than we are on

15:49

the fundament of friendship with whomever

15:52

that is, whomever our best friends are,

15:54

our best relationships are. I

15:57

feel like that's all just so Entrenched

15:59

in... Traditional message in

16:01

the and women having to marry nagging

16:03

was to have have become bank account

16:05

yeah and be able to do anything

16:08

they say out of that landscape is

16:10

changing so much. I think the rhetoric

16:12

is changing and I think you're seeing and

16:14

a wave of women having much higher standards

16:17

and same kind of i'm actually not and

16:19

a settle for this more previously you kind

16:21

of had to and I think part of

16:23

that is. A More for so many

16:25

in your life in general those are

16:28

realizing and his friendship. You

16:30

get all of that. I'm in one hundred

16:32

percent and is he not to that? It

16:34

is such a strong foundation for your life.

16:36

Second, see your right leg attorneys and think

16:38

about the systemic. Programming the I have

16:40

more I realize. Even though

16:43

I will have always. Loans

16:45

just to do I do for living and

16:47

acting has been this. Great. Passion.

16:50

Always always always does idea that I

16:52

had to find that person to love

16:54

and to love me and that superceded

16:56

everything And that was always the question

16:59

and that. Not happening until my late

17:01

forties I've realized I thought of that

17:03

as a failure and it's such utter.

17:06

Bollocks. Constant

17:08

message that you're not enough on your

17:10

sex and that women aren't enough on

17:12

there is. Estimated Saudis by the

17:14

presence of the male partner. Yeah,

17:16

and then then. You're successful. Yeah, if

17:19

you've had the job all along, daniel stamped

17:21

with a season pass and exactly. And the

17:23

idea of belonging like my boyfriend doesn't want

17:25

to get married. my parents were married and

17:28

I'm like, where does this come from This

17:30

and it's an idea about the loaning of

17:32

someone choosing me because I think I. Was

17:34

programmed to believe someone has to choose me

17:37

and when he looks at what we do

17:39

for living fundamentally, that's also what it is.

17:41

You have to get answers and over all

17:43

the other people. But it raises comes

17:45

back to lox selfless what for me

17:47

I don't so much analysis of like

17:49

why do women feel as I directed

17:51

has a few my sister is I

17:54

was. Sixteen, She handed me

17:56

the but can't and told me

17:58

that the. Patriarchy. taking advantage

18:00

of me and the tampon industry taking

18:02

advantage of me, rude up. Your sister

18:04

should be talking in schools. She should

18:06

be. She runs a monthly event, sex

18:09

talks, and it's everyone leaving, feeling empowered

18:11

and... Sounds like she was ahead of

18:13

the curve because that word, like empowerment,

18:15

which is what women, particularly

18:18

young women, I think

18:20

are getting to feel now for

18:22

the first time and it be acknowledged

18:25

by outside forces. I'm much

18:27

older than you, but I remember when my

18:30

aunt and my mother were protesting at Greenham

18:32

Common about the nuclear bombs that we were

18:34

going to be housing.

18:36

And I remember how they were just

18:38

presented on the news as these dirty,

18:42

hippie women

18:44

who were not tethered to families or

18:46

people they were so othered

18:48

because they stepped out of exactly what you said, this

18:50

heteronormative idea of what a woman is

18:52

supposed to be. All that

18:55

stuff goes in and we are now unpicking

18:57

that. I watch my

18:59

nieces and my friends' children and speaking

19:01

to young women like you, it's so

19:04

great to know that it's just

19:06

not acceptable anymore, that you don't

19:08

accept it. Still, it's happening

19:10

so slowly and you're grateful that it's happening

19:12

across the board, but you realize how

19:15

much of everything is entrenched in that

19:17

and still the media, I think, plays

19:19

such a huge role in keeping us

19:21

static in the differences of the way

19:23

men and women are portrayed. What

19:25

do you think? Do you think that we should

19:27

be going on marches against the patriot? I'm trying

19:29

to think of like what? I don't know because

19:31

it's so entrenched in our

19:34

fabric. It's built by them for

19:36

them. Supposedly the answer is to

19:38

pick a lane, so you can't

19:40

disassemble the thing in its entirety all

19:42

at once. So choose something that you're

19:45

very passionate about changing and then start

19:47

chipping away at it from there. So

19:49

if then everyone does that, the

19:52

whole thing starts to crumble. I

19:54

do think that is the dissemination of

19:56

information, that is about speaking with each

19:58

other and going... Oh my goodness. This

20:01

is... You feel this too and this has

20:03

been your experience too. Someone like looking at

20:05

you and they would see a picture

20:08

of you looking beautiful in a magazine and

20:10

then they would maybe have the opportunity to

20:12

listen to you for example here or somewhere

20:14

else and correlate are

20:18

a beautiful successful woman can

20:20

also be interrogating ideas that

20:22

need to disassemble shit

20:24

that we've all just been accepting and perhaps it's

20:27

a very big ship and it is taking

20:29

a really long fucking time to turn it

20:32

around. I do think it's happening but

20:34

I agree with you the slowness of it is glacial

20:37

and it's fucking annoying. I

20:40

really like that. I like that about picking a lane,

20:42

chipping away in that way. And I

20:44

do think we're lucky because we do have the

20:46

opportunity in this job to you

20:49

know even like with Chevalier this film where you

20:51

get to hold a mirror up

20:53

to people that is kind

20:55

of Trojan horsing your message. You're

20:57

getting to offer

21:00

really tangible experience of

21:02

empathy that is otherwise

21:04

a more analytical process of someone having to

21:06

read about a thing and then imagine. Whereas

21:08

with film in the entertainment industry I think

21:11

you are just offered it and

21:13

there's very much more kind of visceral experience

21:15

of that. And it's immersive too. That's a

21:17

very elegant way of giving meaning to

21:20

what we do beyond those sort of raw

21:23

going to the movies having an

21:25

experience particularly with stories like Chevalier.

21:28

You can introduce an essentially erased

21:30

story and it be beautiful

21:32

and entertaining and devastating and raw. So that's

21:35

very interesting Lucy. What

21:41

person, place or experience most altered

21:44

your life? This

21:46

is going to be such an answer but it's starting this

21:49

job when I was 12. Well my

21:51

first job was playing the

21:53

young Beatrix Potter and Miss Potter. So cute. And

21:55

I think I didn't

21:58

realise how much

22:00

this job has impacted

22:03

my formation of self

22:06

until I started doing therapy. And in

22:08

our first session, I was going through

22:10

the trajectory of my life so that

22:12

she could understand who I was. And

22:15

then part of it was, you know, and then I started acting at like 11,

22:17

12. And she was like, okay,

22:19

that's going to be a big one. I was like, no, no, no,

22:21

honestly, I have such a healthy relationship with it. Like, you know,

22:24

no, no actors present in the family,

22:26

you know, expectations, not controlling

22:28

parents by any means, really supportive,

22:30

solid foundation, all good, all good.

22:33

And then we started to unpick it. And

22:35

it's like, oh, no, this is the source of so

22:38

much shit to be untangled. So

22:40

what one thing, just because I'm

22:43

fascinated because you're so little and

22:45

it's such a formative moment. Yeah.

22:48

What is one pathway that led

22:50

you down that you've had to unpick? I

22:52

mean, the main two is

22:54

obedience and then trusting

22:57

my own feelings. So I find that

22:59

my relationship with obedience was the main

23:01

thing that came out of these like

23:03

therapy sessions that I was really stunned

23:06

by and disappointed with. Because I think

23:08

in most workforces and industries, obedience is

23:11

rewarded and especially obedience without question

23:13

is rewarded. But in our industry,

23:15

I think there are really tangible

23:17

ways that that's rewarded. And from the bare

23:19

minimum, the way that you're hitting your mark,

23:21

you turn up with all your lines learned.

23:24

Someone else always has the last word. Yeah.

23:26

And obedience becomes really tangible and constantly reinforced,

23:28

especially as a child. And I think as

23:30

a young girl to have obedience as a

23:33

kind of a goal

23:35

every day in a very tangible way

23:37

in your work environment is really odd.

23:40

Wow. And my sister has

23:42

always challenged every source of authority

23:44

around her. She just kind of arrived

23:46

that way. And I became

23:49

the antithesis of that. And I hate it. I

23:51

don't challenge authority enough and have to

23:54

make such a concerted effort to do that

23:56

as I get older. And it's not even

23:58

like seeking validation or praise. It's

24:00

just seeking confirmation

24:03

that you've done the thing

24:05

or exceeded it and that's it. It's

24:07

not that I need the praise, it's

24:09

that the box has been checked and

24:11

I've always looked outside of myself for

24:13

that confirmation rather than do

24:15

I feel like I've done it or am I

24:17

aware that I've done enough. God, that's

24:19

so interesting, Lucy. So

24:21

that was the one thing. And then the other,

24:24

yeah, was trusting my own feelings because

24:27

this job is really odd in that as

24:29

much as your brain knows or you

24:31

can analytically know that this is a

24:33

separate person to yourself, a separate experience

24:35

to yourself, your body still experiences the

24:38

chemical reactions to whatever you're telling it

24:40

you're going through. So

24:42

from that age, I

24:44

haven't solely been me.

24:47

And so I find it hard to tap

24:50

into my gut instinct and to know my

24:53

own feelings and thoughts through

24:56

and through. I really challenge them. I

24:58

don't completely trust them because I'm constantly

25:01

changing them. I'm constantly leaning into

25:03

someone very different from myself. Do

25:05

you find that because in a

25:07

way, the more one is not

25:09

oneself, it actually throws into relief

25:11

who you are. The more

25:13

you feel not yourself, you get to

25:16

actually then connect with, oh goodness, that

25:18

is actually very other than

25:21

who I am. Yes and no.

25:23

Yes, when I'm playing someone really

25:25

far from myself, but in recent

25:27

years, I've played more characters who

25:30

were more similar to parts of me or

25:32

parts of me that I wanted

25:34

to exercise more and lean into. And

25:36

so then when they start to bleed into

25:39

one another, yeah, I

25:41

do find it hard to find myself.

25:43

And I do feel like I have, I'm

25:45

not kind of floating between personalities. I do

25:47

have a strong sense of self. I just

25:49

find that hard to trust sometimes. And

25:51

it's so interesting. And when you're talking

25:54

about obedience, it's so funny how it's

25:56

like there's a whole universe of expansion going

25:58

on behind. The incredibly

26:00

struck said notion of like obedience

26:03

and six in the Mom Says

26:05

and playing by the rules. Says

26:08

A. He has an exterior that is

26:10

cool. And then I'd love.

26:13

I'd love to see because it

26:15

is site does this whole universe

26:17

of freedom going on behind it

26:19

which. Is fantastic because

26:21

I gotta tell you without when

26:24

Sam patronizing as you get older

26:26

that universe of expansion. Just

26:28

becomes more and more and more who

26:30

you are and where he lives. Yeah,

26:32

I'm already feeling that more. Since the

26:34

age of twenty seven onwards, I saw

26:36

that more than as often that I'm

26:39

turning away from things that don't see

26:41

many more on that I was locked

26:43

into focusing on. Even though it

26:45

didn't help me. Almost. It's just

26:47

yeah that freedom of just like everything is

26:50

made up and said i think part of

26:52

that because you consult into semi different identities

26:54

with this was the idea they ultimate self

26:56

isn't so precious. I'm not as protective of

26:59

it. as much more of

27:01

a. Fluid saying. so that's a

27:03

good saying and then also have a harder

27:05

thing because. You can tap into any feeling,

27:07

any point of view and all of

27:09

that. Yeah, No. It really does. I think

27:11

it's really. Great. Is that

27:13

it doesn't sound like you punish yourself

27:16

for a person that you were but

27:18

rather than sort of the continued to

27:20

fold into to personal becoming which maybe

27:23

is a really healthy way In a

27:25

we'd take all of our imperfection with

27:27

us in our though backpack as we

27:29

move along without being angry about it

27:32

which I think is what keeps us

27:34

stock as people. He. And I think

27:36

I used to that a lot when I was

27:38

younger. like stepping out as the blaze that I

27:40

wanted to be. Was unacceptable, antennas

27:43

punishable or as nice as com

27:45

a length seven playing in A

27:47

and do you think meet you

27:49

more. Trust your own feelings Or is that

27:51

something that you continue to kind of has to

27:53

work on? Or do you feel that you do

27:55

it more naturally? Know. I think I'm

27:57

less analytical other of the site. Gather

28:00

feelings and let it pass. And then

28:02

what resonates a modest true will keep

28:04

coming back. And is. Ill.

28:06

Circle Around said again and also just yeah

28:08

this the okay detachment from permanent So it's

28:11

like my mom has always said it to

28:13

us night with repeat it to my sister

28:15

my friends as I all of your feelings

28:17

a valid just listen to that and it

28:19

doesn't mean that as to stick with a

28:21

sick observe it and then that it costs

28:23

So I think I'm. I'm

28:25

learning to like justify myself

28:27

less. By can have

28:30

claimed his feelings and just missing. it'll

28:32

slow. Read. This book the Island

28:34

by old as Huxley and in it

28:36

this is paragraph the to as go

28:39

lightly and it's talk about think it's

28:41

dark because you're trying too hard, go

28:43

light speed lightly and and system is

28:45

beautiful sentiment of the cyclist so trying

28:47

to close. To these things that we think a

28:49

true and real. And us. And actually there's so much

28:52

he says he just letting it go and just. Being

28:54

and obsessing and and letting it pass

28:56

mean I love that gosh, particularly with

28:58

the more challenging things in life to

29:00

go light lane when you feel like

29:03

you're being pulled into the. Abyss.

29:05

Of whether it's grief or sadness for

29:07

depression or ever to be able to

29:10

remember that in those moments is so.

29:12

Wonderful! The shoes. It's

29:14

simple and it's direct. and it's

29:16

actually prescriptive, which is great. I

29:19

know, And says

29:21

he was is it is how I

29:23

shall be Exactly Am I thought The

29:25

Fall Saying. Oh My. God.

29:27

as he says, have any reader. Yes,

29:31

Lightly. Child like the Land do

29:33

everything lightly. Yeah. Feel like the

29:35

even though you're. Feeling deeply. To.

29:38

Slightly let things happen and lightly cope

29:40

with them. I. Was so

29:42

preposterous. A serious in those days.

29:44

such a humanist of a prank,

29:46

late fees nightly. as soon as

29:48

device as a given. Me when it

29:50

comes to dying even a

29:52

thing ponderous, so pretentious or

29:55

emphatic, and rhetoric. watermelons. and

29:57

self conscious the sona putting on it celebrated

29:59

imitate of Christ or little now. And

30:02

of course no theology, no metaphysics,

30:05

just the fact of dying and the fact of

30:07

the clear light. So throw

30:09

away your baggage and go forward. There

30:11

are quick sounds all about you, sucking at your

30:13

feet, trying to suck you down into fear and

30:16

self-pity and despair. That's why

30:18

you must walk so lightly, lightly

30:20

my darling, on tiptoes and no luggage,

30:22

not even a sponge bag, completely

30:25

unencumbered. Oh

30:28

Liz, no I'm crying.

30:30

Isn't it beautiful? The

30:33

fact of the clear light, yeah.

30:36

That book is full of that kind of

30:39

sentiment of, it's definitely

30:41

a little dated in areas, but it's full

30:43

of understanding your

30:45

small self in the big, big

30:48

landscape. Exactly, gosh, I don't have

30:50

anything to add to that. That is so

30:52

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33:22

your life can you tell me something that

33:24

has grown out of a personal disaster?

33:28

The ability to self-soothe

33:30

and the understanding that the

33:33

most impactful strength is

33:36

self-sourced. So when

33:39

I've been going through a really difficult

33:41

time and I'm

33:43

still in the thick of it and

33:47

still drowning in the feelings

33:49

and going through it and

33:51

realizing that I'm coping

33:54

and that I'm getting through something

33:57

that I didn't think I had. kind

34:00

of ability to, the equipment to

34:02

that I thought would be, that would wash

34:05

me away and hasn't, and still here

34:07

and I'm just coping. So would you say that's

34:09

like there are moments where you get to be

34:12

the observer around turmoil and can see

34:14

that you're sitting there shuddering and sad

34:16

or whatever the moment is, but you

34:18

can see I am actually still

34:20

here and I am coping with it and that's

34:23

the thing that will carry

34:25

you on? Yeah, and that I'm

34:27

stronger than I thought I was. Yeah,

34:29

that you're more unshakable than you think

34:31

you are and that doesn't mean any

34:33

lack of kind of emotional response

34:35

or impact it has on you, but it just means

34:37

you'll go out the other side. There's

34:39

this Emmy Lou Harris song, Baldrud of Birmingham,

34:41

that she wrote when Grand Parsons died and

34:43

in it, one of the

34:46

most devastating lyrics is, well, you really got

34:48

me this time and the hardest part is

34:50

knowing I'll survive. And that

34:52

I think resonates so much of just like, regardless

34:55

of the intensity or severity or

34:57

the loss, the grief, you

35:00

come out the other side and you look back and I think

35:02

that's why it's also important to always keep a diary because

35:04

then I look back on these moments where I was

35:06

just like drowning in it and here I am a

35:08

year later or whatever, or however long after

35:11

and having grown from it. Would that be

35:13

your how to in terms of

35:16

practical application, that keeping a diary,

35:18

that journaling, that being able to

35:20

physicalize the emotions that

35:22

you're going through and then being able to

35:25

revisit and see that you've evolved or that

35:27

you moved on from it? Is

35:29

that a practical application, do you think? Yeah,

35:32

and I think just in terms of

35:34

also having to verbalize, having to articulate

35:36

exactly how you feel. And there are

35:38

times when I'm writing and it's like,

35:40

I'm just not getting it, I'm not

35:42

conveying it, so I keep writing and

35:44

it's such a cathartic purging of your

35:46

feelings so that then I'm aware I

35:48

don't take as much of it to someone else

35:51

and it stays kind of ugly

35:53

in its honesty. And so it can

35:55

be much more cleansing and then you

35:57

look back on it and it's just

35:59

this constant. reminder of everything returns to

36:01

the middle. It goes really high and it

36:03

goes really low and it always comes back

36:05

to the middle. Everything passes and so it

36:08

is kind of moving to look back on

36:10

that and realise you're in strength or realise

36:12

like my god what a huge reaction

36:14

and I'm fine, it was fine

36:16

and I was young. I know

36:18

that's so funny. We've been moving

36:20

around since Covid into so different

36:22

countries, different houses and I found

36:24

a box of diaries and

36:27

one of the entries from when I was

36:29

10 and it was so

36:31

funny, it literally went. This

36:34

is my last entry

36:36

because I am

36:38

going to die. I

36:41

have so many of those. I mean

36:43

so dramatic and I have so many

36:45

like that around 10 years old and

36:47

it's like my

36:49

sister is annoying me so much. She

36:51

is going to cause me a heart

36:54

attack. I'm going to die. Here's my

36:56

will. I leave everything to my

36:58

sister. Sisters. What

37:06

would be your last meal? Pancakes.

37:09

Now hold please. Do you mean

37:12

the thick American pancakes that we did not

37:14

grow up eating or do you mean the

37:17

thin pancakes that we would have on Shrews

37:19

Tuesday? Thanks to exactly,

37:21

absolutely the thin thin pancakes

37:23

from Shrews Tuesday. That's a crepe.

37:25

Exactly. Americans call them crepes.

37:28

With lemon sugar or jam. A

37:31

huge stack of them. I used to just

37:33

put them away when my mum was little.

37:35

That's so funny. My mother used to stand

37:37

at the stove and she would be there

37:39

for 45 minutes. After the other, after the

37:41

other, after the other. It's

37:43

also about the heat of the pan. You

37:46

know once it's got to the optimum because

37:48

she would always be the first pancake is

37:50

for the dog. The only ones that

37:52

the mushy and then once it's

37:54

got to that brilliant temperature. Also

37:57

I would be able to defend in a court of law

37:59

that lemon and sugar is

38:01

the greatest of all, the saturations

38:03

and toppings. It eats everything. I

38:06

would be right there with you. People

38:09

have tried to talk me into Nutella and

38:11

banana. They've actually even tried to talk me

38:13

into jam. I cannot ever leave lemon and

38:15

sugar. Jam with a

38:17

little bit of lemon. I do recommend a thin,

38:20

thin. That may be very thin because

38:22

you have to have that sharp

38:24

sour. Yes. Yes. That's like lemon

38:26

and sugar. Oh my

38:28

god. It's so true. I do remember

38:30

being in a really fancy restaurant with

38:33

my dad when I was probably about

38:35

nine. So inappropriately in

38:37

this very fancy restaurant. And they were making

38:39

crepe Suzette at the table. So they were

38:42

making these pancakes and they light the pan

38:44

on fire. And the

38:46

guy, he'd done this huge performance. And I

38:48

remember he put the pancake on my plate

38:51

with a flourish. And I remember standing up

38:53

and going, it is just a pancake. Oh

38:56

my god. And my dad

38:58

was just horrified and he was like, shut

39:00

up. It's crepe Suzette. And I was like,

39:03

no, it is a pancake like

39:05

mom makes. I

39:08

was calling fraud. It was like everyone was

39:10

agreeing that this was something that like clearly

39:13

was not. But that's the kid that I

39:15

wanted to be. That's the kid with the

39:17

lack of obedience that challenges the

39:19

status quo. Oh my god, Lucy. It's

39:22

so interesting. Because like, I love it.

39:24

I was that child. I'm so jealous.

39:26

But you know what happens to that

39:28

person is you'd get beaten by that.

39:31

You get absolutely rounded on for

39:34

being that. It's so interesting

39:36

that there is clearly a punishment. I think

39:38

it is particularly for young women.

39:40

Absolutely. If you are left

39:42

having to unpick the not speaking out,

39:44

and if you speak out, believe me,

39:47

you will get savaged. But

39:49

there's no easy way out of it. And I

39:51

wonder if at least it

39:53

has to be getting better. So more

39:55

and more women doing that is

39:58

more and more examples set. to

40:00

young girls who then become that. And

40:03

so I keep using her as a reference because I look

40:06

at her so much, but my sister has faced

40:08

that and now it doesn't seem to shake her

40:10

because she's been able to look to those women

40:12

and see that and be

40:14

like, I want to be the loud voice

40:16

rather than the quiet acceptance. Well, maybe it

40:18

bears the middle path as well. But the

40:20

loud voice also eventually doesn't become the loud

40:22

voice. Exactly. It becomes the voice. It

40:25

becomes the voice of reason. But

40:27

also the loud voice has been the voice of

40:29

reason. It's just been such an

40:31

unreasonable environment that that is protest

40:33

to state the most obvious. That feels like

40:35

it goes into exactly what you were saying.

40:38

You choose the path that you can actually

40:40

affect change on. And perhaps that is speaking

40:42

to the young actors that you then

40:44

work with. That's when you work with a 12

40:46

year old actress, it's a very different

40:48

conversation than someone was perhaps having with

40:51

you. I've found that on

40:53

sets, like my area of expertise is

40:55

that I am now a 53 year

40:57

old version of maybe the 23 year

40:59

old woman that I'm also working with.

41:01

So there's so much exchange. There is

41:03

so much that can be

41:05

offered between the two of us, which

41:07

then forges apart. And also the young

41:09

men who were then observing and listening to

41:12

those conversations or that we're having conversations with.

41:14

That is how you fashion a different narrative

41:16

is by having that narrative. Totally. And I

41:18

think you can see the progress in that

41:20

happening, it being less a priority to

41:22

be a quote unquote team player

41:24

in our industry where I'm very aware

41:27

that I've come into the industry or at

41:29

least become an adult at the time when

41:31

enough women have been saying that don't prioritize

41:33

being liked because even when you're a

41:35

team player, I don't know, it's just having to learn

41:38

to be comfortable with people being

41:41

uncomfortable by you. Just stand up

41:43

for yourself. And it's worth

41:45

it. And it's so fucking uncomfortable at the time.

41:47

And you feel like such a problem. I've

41:49

noticed it's the way that one delivers. Yes, you've

41:51

got to try to enforce the method. You do.

41:53

And I hate that the idea that a woman

41:56

has to sort of speak more quietly, or she's called

41:58

shrill, but it's not that it's sort of a about

42:00

being a human and going, no, no, no, I

42:02

connect with what I'm saying and I can have

42:04

the patience to say what I need to say

42:07

in a way that is more likely to be

42:09

heard. Yeah, because you don't have to rise to

42:11

the way that it's been brought

42:13

to you. You can be

42:15

the initiator with respect.

42:18

Oh, Lucy, it's just

42:20

been the most wonderful

42:22

conversation. It's so brilliant talking

42:24

to you. You're such a fantastic person.

42:27

You really are. I'm so glad that

42:29

you're out there working. You're such a great actor

42:31

and you're such an excellent person. Thank you so much

42:33

for having me and also thank you so much for

42:35

doing this podcast. And thank you for all

42:37

the times you have been the loudest voice

42:40

and honestly profusely, profusely grateful

42:42

for you. Thank you, darling

42:45

one. Fantastic. Many

42:50

questions is hosted and written by me,

42:53

Minnie Driver, executive produced

42:55

by me and Aaron Kaufman

42:57

with production support from Jennifer

42:59

Buffett, Zoe Denkler and Ali

43:01

Perry. The theme music is

43:04

also by me and additional music.

43:08

Special thanks to Jim Nicolet,

43:10

Addison O'Day, Henry Driver,

43:13

Lisa Castella, Anik Upenheim,

43:15

Anik Muller and Annette

43:17

Wolf at WKPM, Will

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Pearson, Nikki Ito, Morgan

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LaVoy and Mangash Atikadu.

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