0:01

I've lived at l A off and on. I went to undergrad

0:03

there and then stayed for like ten years. But

0:05

this past spring I was working

0:08

there and it's the first time I lived

0:10

by the beach. I grabbed an Airbnb

0:12

in Venice, and I will never not

0:15

live close to the beach. When I'm back in

0:18

l A. It was gorgeous. I was with some

0:20

Caribbean friends in New York. You

0:22

know, We've been walking around and looking on the things,

0:24

and it was amazing and the whole thing. And then we finally

0:27

got to the Hudson and they

0:29

suddenly relaxed and they were like, thank

0:31

God, like we didn't know where

0:33

the city breathed. I was

0:36

like, I gotta yeah,

0:42

hello, I'm Mini driver. Welcome

0:44

to Many Questions, Season two. I've

0:47

always loved Pruce's question. It was

0:49

originally a nineteenth century harl

0:52

game where players would ask each

0:54

other thirty five questions aimed at

0:56

revealing the other players true nature.

0:59

It's just scientific method really.

1:02

In asking different people the same set of

1:04

questions, you can make observations about

1:06

which truths appeared to be universal. I

1:08

love this discipline, and it

1:11

made me wonder, what if these questions

1:13

were just the jumping off point. What greater

1:15

depths would be revealed if I asked

1:17

these questions as conversation starters

1:20

with thought leaders and trailblazers

1:22

across all these different disciplines. So

1:24

I adapted prus questionnaire and I wrote

1:26

my own seven questions that I personally

1:28

think a pertinent to a person's story. They

1:31

are when and where were you happiest?

1:33

What is the quality you like least about yourself?

1:36

What relationship, real or fictionalized,

1:38

defines love for you? What question

1:41

would you most like answered, What

1:43

person, place, or experience has shaped

1:45

you the most? What would be your last meal?

1:48

And can you tell me something in your life

1:50

that's grown out of a personal disaster? And

1:53

I've gathered a group of really

1:55

remarkable people, ones that I

1:58

am honored and humbled to have the

2:00

chance to engage with. You may not hear

2:02

their answers to all seven of these

2:04

questions. We've whittled it down to

2:06

which questions felt closest to their

2:08

experience or the most surprising,

2:11

or created the most fertile

2:13

ground to connect. My

2:16

guest today is the actor, author,

2:18

and former OBAMA staff member cal

2:21

pan Cal is an extraordinary

2:23

mix of creative talent, and intellectual

2:25

acuity, which don't always go hand in hand

2:28

in my business. A native

2:30

of New Jersey and as keenly political

2:33

as he is creative, Cal

2:35

has been a standard bearer for actors of Southeast

2:38

Asian heritage, bursting onto our

2:40

screens with John Show in the Harold

2:42

and Kumar series. And

2:44

his experience of casual, systemic

2:46

racism in Hollywood and how

2:49

that is changing is so clearly

2:51

and candidly examined in our interview.

2:53

Amongst many other things, I

2:56

will also forever hold close the idea

2:58

that for Cal, when I asked in what relationship,

3:00

real or fictionalized, defines love for

3:03

him, he said the Muppets.

3:06

I hope you really enjoy this conversation as much

3:08

as I did. So,

3:14

now, what person, place, or experience

3:16

most altered your life? I

3:19

was gonna say, I will say my

3:21

grandparents, And I want to define

3:24

that altering does not imply

3:26

that my life was going in one direction and then

3:28

it changed course. So I would say

3:30

maybe impacted because they so I

3:33

got to know all four

3:35

grandparents when I was a kid. But

3:38

the stories they would they would tell us

3:40

my grandparents, especially on my mom's side, would talk

3:42

about how they marched with Gandhi

3:45

and that those were the stories. So it was stories

3:47

like about literally, you know, you're

3:50

they're trying to get you to eat your vegetables. And so

3:52

Grandpa's talking about getting thrown

3:55

in jail and beaten by British soldiers

3:57

for standing up for his human rights.

3:59

And of course the eight year old you was like,

4:02

there he goes again, Grandpa with another

4:04

Gandhy story. So

4:11

rolling eye, rolling story.

4:14

I'm this like American kid born and raised

4:16

in the suburbs of New York City, and I'm

4:18

like, here we go. But of

4:21

course then when you understand as

4:23

a kid, you know, I think for me it was in sixth grade.

4:26

There was a very small section in our history

4:28

book that tied Gandhi a non violence

4:30

of the disobedience to Dr King. So

4:34

you connected it, you connected it to like,

4:36

yes, they were still alive at that point. So I had the chance

4:39

to ask my grandparents questions. And

4:41

my one grandmother in particular didn't

4:43

speak any English. So one of the reasons

4:45

that I am bilingual and fluently

4:47

so is because in order to communicate

4:49

with her, I had to learn a

4:52

language called I wouldn't say it changed

4:54

the course of my life, but it offered perspective

4:57

in a certain type of grounding where

4:59

recognizing the things like this are not things

5:01

that are in ancient history, but happened

5:04

to and have happened to, and involve our relatives,

5:06

people we've met and known and loved in

5:09

our lifetimes, and then the

5:11

idea of and folks who are multi

5:13

lingual will will know this. I'm so grateful

5:15

because Lord knows, my high school French didn't

5:17

turn out too hot. So I'm very

5:20

grateful for my grandparents being

5:22

multi lingual because it just offered

5:24

a perspective on getting to know people and

5:27

being able to travel, and being able to travel in another

5:29

language that I don't think I would

5:31

have had the exposure to otherwise. Is

5:35

the most spoken language

5:37

in India. I

5:39

think it's something like they're they're

5:41

sixty or eighty million speakers.

5:45

Because there are a billion people, it

5:47

makes it. Yeah,

5:49

it's a it's a minority language. Regionally,

5:52

it's a smaller language, but by

5:54

global standards, it's pretty big.

5:56

Yeah, I mean more than more than

5:58

how many people are in England. Yeah, I mean,

6:00

goodness, Wow, I

6:03

love the e learned a language to be able to communicate

6:06

with your your grandma, Like,

6:08

that's really, that's really wonderful.

6:11

When was the last time, when was the most recent time that

6:13

you use your good rat There's

6:15

a movie on Netflix, I think it's Netflix

6:18

called Wrong Side Raju and

6:20

it's in good and

6:22

I was like thumbing through. I was like, wonder if they have any good language

6:25

content, and they did so I watched it and it was wonderful.

6:28

Oh my god, how brittains. Then

6:30

maybe I will go and check it out. The name again,

6:32

Wrong Side Raju's

6:41

okay? Good? Will

6:48

you tell me where and when you were

6:50

happiest in your life? Yes?

6:52

And I was trying to think about this. I

6:55

had wished when I was thinking about this answer, I was like,

6:57

so, I'm a big astronomy nerd, and I

7:00

was like, I wish I had the hundred

7:02

million dollars to go into space talking

7:04

about talking about things that are morally

7:06

questionable. By the way, forty

7:08

five minutes and you're not even in space, because

7:11

he wasn't in space. He was literally

7:13

not in space. He was just up high in the

7:15

sky the wade. You are. I

7:18

annoyed about this, so annoyed

7:20

by how much weightless sure

7:23

space? Not really you

7:25

weren't really in deep space. Yeah,

7:28

so I was gonna I was gonna say I wish

7:30

I wish I'd done one of those. It would have been my easy answer

7:33

for me. I feel like part of it in terms of, like, you

7:35

know, where have I been happiest.

7:38

There was a work experience that I had

7:41

on a film called The Namesake, which

7:43

is based on a novel written

7:45

by a wonderful author named

7:47

jimpola Here she won the Pulletzer for her first

7:50

book, The Interpreter of Melodies, and

7:52

the film I had the chance to play

7:54

the one of the leads in the film was

7:56

directed by a woman named Mary, and I are who

7:59

she's InCred of all. She's amazing and

8:01

she was a role model of mine from

8:03

the time I was a kid. She's actually one of the reasons

8:05

I decided to become an actor because

8:08

when I was a kid, she had this movie

8:10

come out called Mississippi Massala. I

8:12

remember, my god, it was incredible,

8:15

the hottest, most beautiful, amazing

8:18

movie. And for folks I don't know Sta

8:20

Childrey, Denzel Washington and uh

8:23

And the first time that you know, the thirteen

8:26

or fourteen year old me had seen characters

8:29

on screen who looked like me, who weren't played

8:31

by people in brown face or cartoon

8:33

characters. My god, that

8:36

was how I wanted to look more than any

8:38

other. I mean once when I was a kid, it was Sigourney

8:41

Weaver because there was no one else that had the same hair

8:43

as I did. But Surrita in that

8:45

film was the most

8:47

my It was my epitome of female

8:50

beauty. Oh wow. Basically

8:52

walking out of that theater, I thought, oh wow, these are

8:54

these are families or characters that that are

8:56

like mine. And they're in addition to

8:59

just the the feeling of like

9:01

why do I feel this way? And and the characters

9:03

also weren't one note right. They were

9:05

flawed, and they made mistakes,

9:07

and they were racist, and they

9:10

had sex, and they all of the

9:12

beautiful and tragic things that happen

9:14

in life were happening to these

9:16

characters. So it was one of those things where I thought,

9:18

well, if if this, if these women can do it, then maybe it's

9:20

something I can do as well. And then in college,

9:23

I remember waiting for hours

9:25

there was an announcement that Mire and I are was going to

9:27

speak on campus, and

9:30

I went. It was I think it was like a seven pm

9:32

start time, and I must have showed up at like three

9:35

pm, and I waited

9:37

in line with my head shot. I

9:40

was like, Okay, I feel like if I sit in

9:42

the front row it's too eager. But

9:44

if I sit like two rows back, then I can

9:47

get her my head shot at the end. And

9:49

I loved, you know, I loved her her

9:52

conversation. And at the very end I managed

9:54

to kind of get up to her and handed her my

9:56

head shot and she was very polite. She said, oh, how

9:58

how lovely, and that was obviously you don't from people

10:00

when you bombard them that way. Um.

10:02

But that was in college, and then two thousand

10:04

and five or six, I had the chance

10:07

to work on the namesake. And I will tell you I

10:09

only had the chance to work on the namesake

10:12

because Mira's then

10:14

fourteen year old son, Zaran, was

10:17

a huge fan of the Harold and Kamar Go

10:19

to White Castle film, and

10:22

he apparently had shown her the

10:26

a trailer or a couple of clips from the

10:28

movie to say, hey, cal Penn

10:30

would be perfect as go Gol, the title

10:32

character or the lead character in the film, and

10:34

Mira apparently saw this like

10:37

silly stoner movie and was like, this is obviously

10:39

not the guy. But

10:42

I had written her a letter asking

10:44

to audition for the film because I heard she

10:46

was casting it, and I never heard back, and

10:48

so I found out that the reason that I was finally

10:50

allowed audition was because of her son. So

10:52

basically he convinced her to let me audition.

10:55

Now, Harold and Kumar, I think one of the

10:57

reasons that I had tipped my myself

10:59

or the edge was I was one of the few South

11:02

Asian actors in those days who had

11:04

a film credit on his resume because

11:06

of a comedy I did in like two

11:08

thousand and two thousand and one called Van Wilder

11:11

with Ryan Reynolds. His

11:13

first was his first big thing, and

11:16

the name of the character was taj Mahal

11:19

that I played like it was this it

11:21

was I had a great I mean I I

11:25

have a book that recently came out where I talked

11:27

about the whole story about getting cast in it and and how

11:29

gracious by the way both Ryan and Terry

11:32

Reid were. But to go from like that

11:34

first job where you're an actor, you take what you're gonna

11:36

get right and you build your resume from it. But

11:38

the problematic nature of playing a guy named taj

11:41

Mahal, to that leading to the

11:43

Harold and Kumar movies, to that then leading

11:45

to the Namesake, where I get to work with

11:47

a woman who is one of the reasons that I decided

11:49

to be an actor to begin with, and then starting

11:52

on that project and realizing it was,

11:54

especially in two thousand five, guys who look like me don't

11:57

get to do literary adaptations

11:59

that are that are beautiful dramas. You're

12:02

right, because now you know, I look at

12:04

I don't know, Depitel, that's like

12:07

just total movie stars. But

12:10

in two thousand five, you're right, Yeah,

12:12

you were so for all those reasons. When you

12:14

say when were you most happiest?

12:16

I was like, isn't a cop out to mention

12:18

something work related? And I thought, you know, it's not, because

12:21

the whole reason we love art and

12:23

storytelling sometimes it's tied

12:25

into so much more, including the fourteen

12:27

year old me and the twenty six

12:29

year old me and then the twenty eight year old me,

12:32

and you know, it's just at every iteration when

12:34

there's something like that that inspires you, and then you

12:36

have the chance to work with those people. I can't

12:38

even describe how content I

12:40

was and how much I felt like I was able to

12:42

excel in my craft during that period

12:44

of time. I completely understand

12:47

that, and I think it's so connected.

12:49

And also, your desire was

12:51

the straight shot. Everything else

12:53

was just constantly bisecting the straight

12:56

shot of your kind of intention. But

12:58

the fact that it does, it

13:00

doesn't necessarily come in the way that you thought it

13:02

should. It didn't. You know, maybe

13:05

you thought that you would hand her your head shot and it

13:07

would all sort of happen then, and it's like, no, and

13:09

actually it's still not going to happen in a super competitive

13:12

audition process. But then a fourteen year old

13:14

kid who's seen this movie, I

13:17

love it when happiness is genuinely

13:19

in the gray areas. It's

13:22

not in the it's often

13:24

not in the way in which we divine it should

13:26

be. Yeah, yeah, that's right. How

13:29

amazing. Also, the fact that Mirror

13:31

and I would be this continuous

13:33

creative punctuation through your

13:36

story, I think that's really

13:38

I think that's really amazing. I'm also I cannot

13:40

believe that the character in Van Wilder

13:43

was called I don't. I don't

13:45

think I'm ever going to get over that. It's

13:47

shocking. It is absolutely

13:49

shocking that that was only that was

13:52

that was two thousand five, Like, it's not that, I mean,

13:54

that's not that long ago. Two thou Well,

13:56

I'll one up you if you're if you're surprised by

13:58

that, because you're ready. It wasn't that long ago.

14:01

I think every actor goes through this in the

14:03

appropriate comparison. But you know, sometimes you

14:05

audition for stuff and you you want to know if

14:07

you're gonna get it, and you're not sure if you're gonna take it,

14:10

and so this was one of those things where I was like, let

14:12

me just see because I know I'm a I'm a I'm

14:14

an aspiring actor. At that point, I was like, let me see

14:16

if I get this job, because I need a

14:18

credit on my resume. In the realities, I know,

14:21

I know what people think I look like, and so

14:23

if I'm going to get credits on my resume, I'm gonna probably

14:25

have to do some of these types of of parts.

14:28

And so I remember going

14:30

back for callbacks and I knew what the last

14:33

callback. I was told it's between you and another guy,

14:35

and I didn't know who he was. And the

14:37

issue with diversities, of course, it's

14:39

never a question of there aren't enough actors.

14:42

It's you know, everybody, there's so many talented actors

14:44

to choose from. And so I walk into the

14:46

room and the other guy had

14:48

arrived before me, and it was a white dude in brown

14:51

face. I'm

14:57

not kidding, and any any

15:00

um, any question

15:02

that I had about whether I was going to take the

15:04

part if I got it, all went out the window

15:06

because I saw this dude sitting there and I was like, oh,

15:09

yeah, no, you're not allowed to

15:11

play this. You can play Brandon

15:13

from Iowa all you want, because you're gonna

15:15

get tons of aliens or stuff like that. And it made

15:18

the decision a lot easier because I thought, no, so

15:20

the choices like this dude gets a credit on his resume

15:22

or I do. And I don't know how

15:25

your approaches, but I rarely have beef

15:27

with other actors in any situation,

15:30

especially even a situation like this, because

15:32

I understand the desperation of wanting a job

15:34

and how competitive the field is. So I

15:36

was more curious. I was like, Okay,

15:39

here's the deal. My god, did this guy

15:42

he like, did his agent tell him to

15:44

paint his face or did he decide to do

15:46

that on his own. Number two, it's a callback.

15:49

Had he painted his face before

15:51

and everyone was cool with that? Number Three?

15:53

Where did he do it? Did he paint his face at home? If

15:56

so, did it increase his chances of

15:58

getting pulled over by the car? Or

16:00

did he come to the audition and then paying his face

16:03

in the bathroom? That was all the stuff. I

16:05

was so fascinated. I'm just

16:07

I know, and I know that you're you're

16:09

laughing and you're brilliant and you have long

16:12

metabolized this. But it's like the

16:14

awful sort of passive sexual

16:17

assaults that happen on female actors

16:20

all the time, and how one just sort of metabolized

16:22

and it becomes part of your narrative. But it's

16:24

only like when I tell that story people, I

16:26

think they're going to laugh or they're like, oh my goodness,

16:30

they don't, and like hearing you, hearing

16:32

you tell that story, like of what of what that must have

16:34

been like like walking into I just

16:37

I'm I'm I'm so, I'm

16:40

so shocked. And I'm also it makes

16:42

where we are now in terms

16:44

of this business that we're in, because I know it is

16:47

really local to what is happening in Hollywood,

16:49

where we are seeing significant change

16:51

and inclusion is

16:54

actively being pursued, that I

16:56

sort of feel like perhaps

16:58

the boat is turning, but still you

17:02

you're so good humored about something that is

17:05

I thought that didn't happen after Fisher Stevens

17:08

like brown based in Short Search, which

17:10

is still one of the most insane things I've

17:12

ever seen in my life. Like now to watch that film,

17:14

it's yeah, no,

17:16

it still happens. I mean, look, the reason

17:19

I laugh about it, the reason that I in in the

17:22

book and especially in the audiobook because I read it

17:24

myself for this particular reason

17:26

is like, you know, the

17:28

the one of the many reasons that I laugh about

17:30

things like that, not that it doesn't happen. It

17:32

happened. As recently is the live action Aladdin,

17:35

where a lot of extras were painted apparently,

17:37

and Disney, who I happily have worked for and

17:39

hope to continue to work for, I think their

17:41

their statement was something like, well, it

17:44

wasn't possible to hire enough brown background

17:46

actors, and they were they were shooting

17:48

in fucking London. I mean, come on, really, that's

17:51

not what the real answer to that is.

17:53

We didn't want to invest the

17:55

financial resources in getting

17:57

them all. It's not that they don't exist.

17:59

Are you gonna have to work a tiny bit harder to find them? Maybe?

18:02

And there were there were some lively conversations about it

18:04

where I think, thankfully, like you had mentioned, people within

18:06

the industry, we're like, oh, yeah, that's not a thing. That's cool.

18:09

We shouldn't. We shouldn't. We can we can

18:11

do better, right collect, we can better. But

18:13

the biggest reason I laugh about telling those stories is I'm

18:15

so happy with being able

18:17

to turn on the TV today and just seeing

18:21

so much diversity in terms of

18:23

content. And I don't even just mean the

18:26

ethnic or gender diversity. I'm talking like

18:28

you turn on some of these shows and it's stuff

18:30

that I couldn't have conceived of, would

18:32

would even be a show ten years

18:34

ago, or something, you know, something like never

18:37

have I ever write so many South Asian

18:39

characters of a different generation like

18:41

two below mine. I never would have thought

18:43

that we'd ever see something like that. So it's

18:46

I tell those stories in a good natured

18:48

way, I think, because I'm so happy with

18:51

how much our industry has progressed,

18:53

And to your point, there's obviously so much more

18:56

work that still needs to be done. But it's

18:58

a nice I think it's a nice moment in the last

19:00

few years. Yeah, I also think that I've

19:03

realized that the way in which people metabolize

19:05

hard conversations is often

19:07

when there is and even though it seems

19:09

to fall on the shoulder of the person to whom that

19:12

bad ship has happened, but when

19:15

you being able to tell it, tell that story

19:17

in such an erudite, funny,

19:21

clever way. It's like, but

19:23

again, I find that awful because I'm like, oh,

19:25

well, you know, Cal's giving me permission

19:28

to laugh and be okay with this. You

19:30

should laugh. Yeah, I feel like it

19:32

is it is better to laugh than to feel

19:35

still in a ditch around that stuff. And I laugh

19:37

telling the stories of being aggressed

19:39

upon by revolting

19:41

casting directors, directors and whomever

19:43

it was. Yeah, your point is

19:46

so well taken because it reminds me of

19:48

I think it's it's difficult if if

19:50

these conversations are overly sanitized,

19:53

it's difficult to explain, Like

19:55

I remember Twitter, By the way, Twitter

19:58

mentions obviously are not a good barometer on

20:00

taking the temperature on anything, but

20:04

but whether it's whether it's Twitter or people who

20:06

will actually have conversations with you. I remember

20:08

a couple of people said, why are you whining about

20:11

something like like a Laddin brown face when you played

20:13

that that character in Van

20:15

Wilder, And I realized that if

20:18

these conversations are overly sanitized,

20:20

and you don't have any experience with

20:23

the story that somebody is telling you, and

20:25

if you've always grown up seeing characters

20:28

who look like you on screen, it's very difficult

20:31

to succinctly explain to somebody

20:33

when you're absent from what you

20:35

see every day, from every cultural reference

20:37

point, you feel as a kid like

20:39

your your options are limited in

20:41

life. You just feel that way. It just is

20:44

I'm not I'm not I'm not telling

20:46

you that you should feel differently because

20:48

your experience isn't that. But your point

20:50

I think that you made about about casting directors

20:52

and about being pitted against each other is there's

20:55

so much nuance to these conversations

20:57

and in order to actually tell those stories again,

20:59

which is why I try to use humor, because I think it draws

21:02

people into curiosity. Is then

21:05

I think it sets the tone for the complexity

21:07

of what that is and ultimately what we all want, which

21:09

is to move beyond that and celebrate

21:12

what is possible instead of just looking

21:15

backwards. Absolutely, there

21:17

is simply no way of me,

21:19

a white person, knowing what it is like

21:21

to not grow up seeing myself represented

21:24

because it's all I've I've ever known.

21:26

And I think that, like you said,

21:28

what's happening now where you just turn on the television

21:30

and it's across the board. It's not just about

21:32

color or gender. It's about it's about everything

21:35

that has been marginalized and turned into fringe

21:37

that is now being pulled into this crucible

21:39

of like cultural awareness, which is that's

21:41

how we change. It's where

21:43

it's where change, meaningful change happens.

21:46

I think what

22:01

relationship, real or fictionalized,

22:03

defines love? For you, the

22:06

Muppets, I

22:11

can tell from the look on your face that nobody

22:13

has said this before, And I'm not sure if that's

22:16

a good thing, But I'm not now that you

22:18

say it, I'm not sure why no one has said

22:20

it before, because of course they define

22:22

love, please please continue. Just

22:25

it's love for each other, obviously

22:29

with all of the complexities that come

22:31

along with that. And I'm not just talking about Kermit

22:33

and Ms Piggy and a love

22:36

for what they do, because there's such

22:38

an obvious love

22:40

for the audience as the

22:43

the extension of that fourth wall, that it's

22:46

all a celebration of what they're doing. All

22:48

of it is based in the love of this collective

22:51

thing. And I just think it's the coolest thing. It's

22:54

so true. What was it? It's time to put on

22:56

makeup, It's time to like

22:58

the whole thing is about the show. I love

23:00

that you chose the Muppets, and also that it's

23:03

fictional, because I often all

23:05

my great loves have been fictional. Did

23:07

you watch a lot of Muppets when you were a child? I

23:10

did, and still

23:12

Who is Your Well? I was called animal at

23:14

school. That was one of my nicknames that people

23:17

called me because I had crazy hair and

23:19

I was really sort of tall and thin with

23:22

had like the top of a palm

23:25

tree. Who

23:28

is who is your most beloved Muppet? I

23:31

have always been gravitated towards

23:33

Kermit. But I will tell you why. I know that

23:35

you assume it's because, okay, well, he's like

23:37

the leader, and you're you know, and the poet.

23:41

It's it is all of those things. But the

23:43

real reason, the

23:45

real reason is that he is the only

23:48

one who appears on both The Muppet

23:50

Show and Sesame Street. He

23:52

does both, and so I

23:55

was always very

23:57

very in all of the fact that

23:59

that dude had two jobs. I

24:01

could watch him in the morning on Sesame

24:03

Street and then he was also on The Muppet

24:05

Show in the evening. By the way, that

24:07

is also a really South

24:10

Asian work ethic coming

24:12

out right there. That

24:14

is fully cultural of Absolutely,

24:17

that's one in the morning

24:19

and one in the evening. That's something

24:22

that nineteen uncles would probably

24:24

point out. Yes, that's

24:26

fantastic. I've never thought about that, and you're

24:28

absolutely right. I love Kermit.

24:31

I love him.

24:33

Also, the Willie Nelson version of Rainbow

24:36

Connection is honestly, I don't think I've

24:38

ever not cried listening to that song. What

24:46

question would you most like answered?

24:49

Oh boy,

24:51

I was about to say, what happens after you

24:54

die? But the answer is nothing. Well,

24:56

you don't know that. You definitely

24:59

don't know that that is the us. That's

25:02

true, that's true, that's true. I mean there's

25:04

nothing, there's nothing for your body.

25:07

But I don't know who knows

25:09

that that that that the kinetic doesn't

25:12

kicker carry on? Yeah,

25:15

I guess I would like answered where

25:18

where specifically the

25:21

the closest civilization

25:24

is outside of out Oh that's

25:26

good. And now you see I'm really

25:28

thinking about that because I've had all kinds of aliens

25:30

and after we die answers, which are always

25:32

fun to think about, but actually thinking where

25:35

geographically or

25:38

where whatever the word can you

25:40

use geographical if it's not pertaining

25:42

like to the Earth surface, that can you use that

25:44

in the universe? Is should there be a word we

25:47

can We've just decided that that's acceptable.

25:49

Great. I'm so glad that the

25:52

King and Queen. What's

25:55

the new telescope? What's the good the

25:57

web? The James Web telescope,

26:00

which, by the way, someone wrote something so funny.

26:02

They were like the day after they

26:04

showed those pictures, they were like Hubble's

26:07

waken up today, like the before picture in

26:09

a boat dogs had bless

26:13

Hubble. Do you think, though, that that exponential

26:16

development of our ability to

26:18

go and do you think that's what will help us answer

26:21

questions like the one that you've just I think

26:23

so, yeah, I think so, I hope. So

26:26

how far off do you think we are? Do you know you

26:28

like astronomy? What do you somebody

26:30

was saying that the hope was in

26:32

our lifetime. My god. I

26:36

was having this conversation with this man called David

26:38

Eagleman, who is this this neuroscientist,

26:41

brilliant scientist person who teaches at

26:43

Stanford, And he was talking

26:45

about the vastness

26:47

of our ignorance, the complexity and vasts

26:50

of our ignorance, But not in a way like ignorance

26:52

has such a kind of pejorative flavor,

26:54

but in the like excited the

26:57

vastness of our ignorance, like within that

27:00

is all of these answers, and that if

27:02

we keep exploring the varses of arguments, that

27:04

we will come across it. And I love that. I

27:06

love that idea because it's sort of becoming

27:09

pioneers of the unknown,

27:11

like I mean, and and being excited and

27:13

curious about that as opposed to feeling

27:16

bewildered and and hopeless,

27:18

which is how I often feel when I think

27:20

about the unknown, like where's my next

27:22

job coming from?

27:29

What would be your last meal? Tackles?

27:34

I love tackles. They're really

27:37

good tacos in New York. I

27:39

don't think anything compares obviously

27:42

to Mexico, but l a

27:45

Mexican food in l A compared to New York, there's

27:47

no there's no comparison. California

27:50

and Mexico are just that. There's there's nowhere

27:52

I've eaten. I've eaten tacos everywhere, and there's nowhere

27:54

like l A in Mexico. Yeah,

27:57

my favorite taco spot is still place

28:00

called Los Tacos on Santa

28:03

Monica. Bouli are just west of Fairfax.

28:06

It's in a strip mall next

28:09

to its sandwich, between a seven eleven

28:11

and laundromat. I used to live in the

28:13

neighborhood fifteen years ago,

28:15

and that laundromat is where I used to do my laundry.

28:18

And so early in the morning you would see

28:20

these lines of construction workers

28:22

getting their breakfast. At night you would see

28:24

a whole bunch of drunk people getting

28:26

their munkey food. So one day, while I was

28:29

doing laundry, I was like, let me see what the hype is about

28:31

here, and it was so delicious.

28:34

It's open, and

28:36

I have been known to stop there

28:38

to and or from l A X.

28:40

So like the plane lands and I'm like, hey,

28:43

can you guys give me an extra forty

28:45

minutes before the first meeting because I need to hit

28:47

up Los Tacos roll. Oh

28:50

my god, I can't wait to go that. I'm

28:52

literally going up

28:54

in town on Monday. I'm going to Los Tacos. Okay,

28:56

what do you get number

28:59

two? Which is, uh, two tacos

29:01

rice and beans? But what, senor are you

29:06

I've done. Their chicken and

29:08

their veg their veggie are going to be

29:10

soft tacos and their chicken. You

29:12

can get either soft or hard. I'm really hungry

29:14

now. Yeah, it's really good. There's nothing

29:17

father I would are you? Are you vegetarian? No?

29:20

I don't eat red, mate, but I eat I eat

29:22

a bit of chicken, and I eat fish. So

29:24

a funny story about that place. When I first started

29:27

going there, I was strictly a vegetarian,

29:30

and I remember I remember

29:32

asking the guy. I was like, hey, man, I'd

29:35

like to try your number two. But are the

29:37

beans and rice vegetarian two? Or is

29:39

there like lard in the beans and chicken stock in

29:41

the rice? And he goes, no, no,

29:43

no vegetarianos. And I was like, cool,

29:45

awesome, I'll do that. And it was so good that I've

29:47

then been going there for like eight years.

29:50

My vegan brother came to visit

29:52

and I was like, I'm taking you to the spot, man,

29:55

the spot. We go to those tacos

29:57

and he's like, well, I'm gonna ask if everything's vegan. I

29:59

was like, it's vege gitarian. What else are they going to put

30:01

in it? I'm gonna ask anyway.

30:03

So he asks and they go,

30:05

oh, it's a different person. And the person

30:08

goes, oh, no, it's not vegan. In

30:10

fact, there's lard in the beans and there's chicken

30:12

stock in the rights. And I was like, what wha time

30:14

out? You told me

30:16

no? And then I was replaying it back in my head and

30:19

so clearly what the guy said

30:21

was no vegetarian. Nos

30:23

not no comma veg know

30:27

that there isn't anything that's vegetarian.

30:29

And I was so excited about

30:31

these tacos that I ate them anyway, thinking

30:34

that he meant it's vegetaran. My

30:37

lovely yeah, yeah, who has helped me take

30:39

care of my son. When I asked her how

30:41

she would make her beans, I was

30:43

like, I remember saying exactly the same thing. I was like,

30:45

are they are they vegetarian? And she was

30:47

like yes, And then she was

30:49

like except for the polk knuckle. It's

30:53

all vegetarian except for the pool knuckle that you

30:56

cook in with the beans to make them taste delicious.

30:58

Yes, yes, exactly. Was I

31:01

loved that though, Oh my gosh, your poor brother in

31:15

your life. Can you tell me about

31:18

something that has grown out of a personal

31:20

disaster? Yes,

31:24

so, you know, we've talked briefly about

31:26

the brown face of it all that I

31:28

was laughing about. But experiences

31:32

like that, we're going on auditions

31:34

where I would be for

31:37

non actors. Here, I'll give you the full disclaimer

31:39

of every actor. When you start out, the only

31:41

thing you're allowed audition for is what producers

31:43

and casting directors think you look like, exactly.

31:46

So, so my version of that obviously

31:49

has ethnic and racial undertones, because the late

31:51

nineties and early two thousand's for somebody who

31:53

looked like me, we're a lot more about that than anything

31:55

else. So I would go on auditions

31:57

and it seemed like I was only getting auditions

32:00

for parts that were already written to be

32:02

Saltatian or or Latin X

32:04

frankly, or like you could pass. And

32:06

a lot of those are are the you know,

32:08

sort of one dimensional stereotypes.

32:11

And I had always sort of said to myself,

32:13

you know, an accent alone does not

32:15

make a stereotype. Plenty of people have accents,

32:17

and the stereotype comes from accents

32:20

that are added in a reductionist way, meaning

32:22

the producers know the writing sucks, therefore

32:26

covered up with an accent and people will laugh.

32:28

Right. And I realized

32:31

that early on on on, you know, audition for

32:33

things like Sabrina the Teenage, which which

32:37

you know, a sweet show and it's for kids. And

32:39

I remember going on this audition and the audition

32:41

was three lines, and I was so excited

32:43

that idea. I was like, you know, I'm going to create a backstory

32:46

for my character. So I was like,

32:48

it's three lines. I don't care. Okay, this guy

32:50

is from the Pacific Northwest. He's maybe grow

32:52

up outside of Seattle, and he wears a lot of flannels,

32:55

and he loves small batch organic coffee and

32:57

like maybe he tried to brew beer once in

32:59

his bad tub and it didn't go well, like things

33:01

like I think it had nothing to do with the stupid

33:03

three lines about the study group, right, But

33:06

I went into this audition confident and with

33:08

all this backstory and uh, the

33:10

cashing new corector. I remember ran out as

33:12

I was getting to my car and he said,

33:15

hey, the producers would love for you to do it again.

33:17

And I was like, oh, this is awesome. And so as

33:20

I'm about to walk back in the room, he goes, this

33:22

time with an accent, and I was

33:24

like, okay, there is

33:26

a bit of coercion, as you mentioned that, the

33:28

things that you're made to feel like you have to withstand.

33:31

But ultimately I could have said no, I could

33:33

have walked out of there. But the thing that went through my head was, Okay,

33:36

this job pays about seven bucks my rent

33:38

is month, and

33:40

this is going to be a credit on a resume that's currently non

33:42

existent. So I should

33:44

probably do this because that's what happened hundreds

33:47

of times, right. And so the thing that I would always say when they would

33:49

say we'd like you to do with an accent, is sure, what kind

33:51

of accent would you like? I can do Scottish, Irish,

33:53

Southern Italian. You know. I would just

33:55

go off and they were never amused,

33:58

but they in this case, the director, who's

34:01

a real prick, leaned in and he goes, uh, why

34:03

don't we just stick to Indian? So

34:06

I said, Okay, I did the audition and I walked

34:08

out of there not feeling great, and so I went

34:11

back to my apartment. I called my agent to

34:13

tell her what had happened, and she

34:16

she picked up the phone ands at congratulations, They

34:18

called you got the part. I felt so disappointed,

34:21

like I was almost hoping I wasn't going to get the part because

34:23

I didn't want to have to deal with what this was

34:25

going to be. And I immediately felt like,

34:28

the hell is this? This sucks. When my friends

34:30

get their first few roles, we

34:33

all go out for drinks and we celebrate and we

34:35

encourage each other and they're excited that they're

34:37

playing the frat boy from Indiana

34:40

or whatever. How Come I don't get to

34:42

be happy. I don't get to celebrate because

34:44

I I don't want to do the stereotypical

34:47

thing. So I said to the agent, is there any

34:49

what you could call them and say that I'll only do it if if

34:51

I can just play it the way I did before, like the

34:54

dude from the Pacific Northwest, And

34:56

she goes my experiences that generally agents

34:59

are the worst people to have this conversation. What you

35:01

should do is like, so if you know you're taking

35:03

anyway, why don't you go early, Go in a half

35:05

hour early, talk to the director and see

35:07

if you can make your case. So I went in a half hour early.

35:10

I found the director and he was very

35:12

nice to me, unlike at the audition, and I said, hey,

35:14

man, thank you. You buttered him up. Thank you so much

35:16

for having me. What a fun script

35:19

um I was. I was hoping

35:21

that I could play him the way I did it in the first

35:23

round of my audition, without an accent. And

35:25

he goes, oh, no, that accents hilarious. You're

35:28

you're going to do it. That's why we hired you. And

35:30

and so then again in my head, I'm like, ah, because

35:32

you know, the writing was subpar. There we go, and

35:35

then I this voice came into my head that was

35:37

like, you know, they say that racism comes from ignorance,

35:39

so perhaps he doesn't even know, you know, And

35:42

and I don't want to presume the guy knows or

35:44

feels things that he doesn't. So I said, I

35:46

gotta be honest. My little cousin's

35:48

love this show and they're you know, they're

35:51

like in fourth grade. I just thought it

35:53

would be so cool if they could watch a character

35:55

and experience something that I never got to experience,

35:58

and like see themselves in a way that that

36:00

I never got to see myself and laugh

36:03

with the character instead of being laughed at. And

36:06

he looks at me and he goes, uh,

36:08

well, your cousins should feel lucky

36:11

that you're allowed to be on TV to begin with, and

36:13

so should you. And he walks off. So

36:16

my first thought was, oh, okay, so it's

36:18

not that ignorance sequels racism sometimes

36:22

like there's a prick who knows exactly what

36:25

he's doing and he just doesn't give a shit. But

36:27

then the second part was again, could I have left?

36:29

Of course today? Was anybody forcing me

36:31

to do anything? No? I was the one who

36:33

decided that this is what I wanted to do to

36:36

get a credit on my resume. But the

36:38

big takeaway from me was that and it is

36:40

a story that I tell him the audiobook in the book,

36:43

not because I want somebody

36:45

to IMDb this guy, although you're certainly welcome

36:47

to, but them

36:51

the idea that it's but truly, I mean,

36:54

it's like this is uh, these

36:56

things are all systemic, right, It's not about this one

36:58

guy or this girl show. It's a out the things

37:00

that thankfully we have slowly but

37:02

surely moved on from so

37:05

so that story that I just told you,

37:07

there were like probably stories

37:10

like that over a period of five or six years.

37:12

And there was a point where I basically was like

37:15

I would see audition sides and I would know

37:17

exactly what they wanted, and I wouldn't prepare

37:19

at all because I saw, you know, okay, it's

37:21

a guy named Abduel from Pakistan. I know exactly

37:23

what they're gonna ask for. Do I even want

37:26

to bother? And then on the rare occasion when

37:28

I was like, oh, it's a guy named Justin from

37:30

Milwaukee. While I'm obviously not

37:32

going to get that part, So the same thing I

37:34

wouldn't prepare, I wouldn't come up with the backstory.

37:37

I would sometimes go on the audition and

37:39

and so there was a moment after a long

37:41

time of doing this where I just realized, what the funk

37:43

are you doing? Man? Like you've already

37:46

decided before you audition that

37:48

you're not getting this part. You've

37:50

just decided that, so you're not putting any work in, You're

37:53

just showing up. Why are you even showing up for this? If

37:55

this isn't something you're passionate about, or that you want

37:57

to figure out strategically how to build

38:00

career and what sacrifices a you're gonna have to make

38:02

before you have the chance to call it a career then

38:05

do something else. And so I was like, Okay,

38:07

I'm gonna take the l's at, I'm gonna take you know, I'm gonna

38:09

go to law school. I'm gonna do something else. And

38:11

that from that darkness, that realization

38:13

that I know a lot of artists, period

38:16

musicians say this stuff a lot, athletes

38:18

say this a lot where it's the difference

38:20

between it like, it's not a choice, right,

38:22

you have to do it. So when I when

38:25

I had made the decision that maybe this isn't what I want

38:27

to do, immediately I was like,

38:29

no, that's wrong. This is

38:31

what I have to do. This is what I am passionate

38:34

about, this form of storytelling. And

38:36

so that means so I reevaluated everything.

38:38

From that point, I was like, I'm going to have to start

38:41

saying no to certain auditions. There's

38:43

nothing wrong with saying

38:45

no to them, and I shouldn't consider

38:47

it a personal assault. Every time I see audition

38:50

sides that are boring and racist and

38:52

understand that the reason that I find them

38:55

so abhorrent, aside from obviously racist,

38:57

sit is really bad. But

38:59

but a lot of the reason creatively that I

39:01

find it so exhausting is that it's boring.

39:04

I wish there was a word could talk about this without

39:06

it drawing equivalency, because

39:08

there is not equivalency. Racism is racism,

39:10

and sexism is sexism. That they're they're different,

39:13

their systemic problems, but they're different. But

39:15

I cannot tell you the familiarity

39:18

of what you're saying, of the sensation of looking

39:21

at something of a woman being

39:24

an adjunct to a man perpetually

39:27

through a career, that if you're lucky, you

39:29

can massage it, if you're clever and you're smart,

39:31

and you make it seem like it was all the guys in the

39:33

room's idea for this woman to become more

39:35

interesting and more intelligent, then you

39:37

can up the experience. But I

39:40

actually did leave Hollywood. I actually left

39:42

and went to Hawaii. And when I

39:44

can't, I can't do this anymore. I

39:46

can't. I can't keep fighting for

39:49

and and be told that I should be grateful for the

39:51

mediocrity that I'm being offered,

39:54

how do you continue to believe that you're good at something if

39:56

that is perpetually you're perpetually

39:59

being told this is a good part and you read

40:01

it and you go it isn't

40:03

It is an overly sexualized

40:05

adjunct to this dude story. So

40:07

that recognition of either I do this and I figure

40:09

out a way of staying

40:11

connected to what I want to do and

40:14

say no to those things and maybe

40:17

have some leaner years because I

40:19

just go, no, I'm not going to do that shitty

40:21

fucking movie, even though it's big, because it's dumb

40:23

and it's stupid and it's perpetuating an idea about

40:25

women. But you're absolutely

40:27

right, like there's enormous freedom in reaching that moment,

40:29

but it's also pretty terrifying. I am

40:32

really I understand. I understand that

40:34

choice that I think those comparisons, while

40:36

you're right, they are, they are different, But I think it's

40:38

it's it's a very fair more than

40:40

a fair comparison, because that's the systemic stuff

40:43

that I think we're talking about, right, And that idea

40:45

that when when I was at that low point

40:47

of saying I'm going to say no to certain things

40:49

and I'm going to recognize that one of the reasons

40:52

I felt so disappointed that I wasn't able

40:54

to go out and celebrate with friends when I would get these

40:56

small jobs. I was trying to

40:58

figure out what, what what did I actually have a

41:00

problem with him? Like I said, it's not that it's just an

41:03

accent, it's recognizing that an accent

41:05

is is a reductionist way of

41:07

covering up shitty writing or that

41:09

you know this idea that you hear people say

41:11

this a lot. Unfortunately, things like he

41:13

had to play a seven eleven owner. I'm

41:15

sorry, is a seven eleven store clerk somehow

41:18

a less than noble profession? Are these

41:20

guys not working sixteen hours

41:22

a day? What people mean to say

41:25

is that that reductionism of a profession,

41:27

especially a working class profession, tied

41:29

to a character that has no other merit

41:32

or actionable agency in a piece

41:34

except for their profession and their ethnicity,

41:37

is by definition what creates a stereotype.

41:40

So the kind of analyzing

41:42

all that and then being like and basically

41:45

I'm like in my early twenties at this point,

41:47

I want to play cool, fun, interesting characters.

41:50

I don't want to play characters that we're already played

41:52

eighteen times on The Simpsons. But

41:54

like we've we've seen it all before, you

41:56

know what I mean, We don't have to the definition,

41:59

especially they who loves comedy like

42:01

comedy continues to evolve in great

42:03

ways when you have great writers. It's

42:05

lazy if you always look backwards for what worked

42:08

before, because that's already been done exactly

42:10

to do. So that whole conversation was part

42:12

of what came out of that. For me, Where were

42:14

you at mentally when

42:17

Lawrence what was his last name on House?

42:20

Cutner? When? When?

42:22

When? When that character came

42:25

along? Where were you at in

42:27

terms of of your

42:29

career and how you were seeing it and how engaged

42:32

you were with the kind of work that you wanted

42:34

to do. Yeah, thank you for asking me

42:36

that question, because that is one

42:39

of one of the thankfully many, because

42:41

I feel like we've only talked about the problematic one so far.

42:44

Wonderful audition process. So

42:46

David Shore, who created House, I

42:48

love him. I'm

42:51

honestly a devoted David

42:53

Shaw fan for the rest of my life.

42:55

Yeah. When I was on House, they were adding

42:58

I think six or six or nine characters.

43:00

We had to compete our characters were competing

43:02

for permanent slots. First of all, it

43:04

was men and women alike, and the age

43:07

range of those characters was like, you know, twenty

43:09

two to seventy. And

43:12

I remember going in for the audition

43:14

and I was given sides of a Mormon

43:17

doctor and I thought,

43:19

somebody has made a terrible mistake, or they

43:22

seriously think that I could play a Mormon doctor,

43:25

whichever it is. That's crazy. And then I walked into the audition

43:27

and it's men and women twenty

43:30

two to seventy in the same waiting

43:32

room, with the same sets of such

43:34

amazing, amazing and I'm like, what

43:37

is this? Surely is

43:39

this what color blind casting looks like? Uh?

43:41

And even gender blind casting to some extent.

43:44

And so I, you know, callback after callback we're realizing

43:46

they're whittling things down. And they must have

43:48

been two years later when I had really gotten to know

43:50

David that I had the guts to ask him,

43:53

hey, man, what was the deal with that audition?

43:55

Why was it like that? And I described it exactly

43:57

as I just did with you, and David

43:59

goes, what are you talking about? And

44:01

I said, come on, David, that is how you ran that

44:04

audition, And he goes, no, No, I know that's how

44:06

I run all my auditions. What do you what's your actual

44:08

question? I said, well, why do it that way? You know?

44:10

Usually if I'm reading for something, it's either people who

44:12

sort of look like me or I feel

44:14

like I'm never going to get the part. And he goes,

44:16

oh, I just do it that way because I want to hire the best

44:19

actors. How are you going to find the best actors if you don't open

44:21

it up like that? And I'm like, this

44:23

is why you're so good at what you do, you know,

44:26

So I like that that is going that's

44:28

happening at the same time as the

44:31

other shitty stuff that you're talking about.

44:33

No, there was a lot of there's a lot of great stuff.

44:35

I definitely don't want to make it sound like it's a it's

44:38

a ship fest. No, it's

44:40

part of it that two things can be

44:42

true at once, more than two things. Because

44:44

it must have been amazing with hald and Kuma, like

44:47

fat incredible. I loved it. To an

44:50

Asian actor, a south as An actor running

44:53

that movie, yeah, and it was all

44:55

it was a happy experience. Loved it. Oh

44:58

yeah, and John Show and I are clothed the

45:01

whole team. You

45:03

guys are both just assompletely hilarious.

45:06

Oh Cal, It's been such a pleasure talking

45:08

to you. Likewise, Thank you.

45:13

Cal's new memoir, You Can't Be Serious,

45:16

is out now in paperback and audiobook.

45:18

You can also see Cal in the Santa Clauses

45:21

on Disney Plus. Mini

45:25

Questions is hosted and written by Me

45:27

Mini Driver, supervising producer

45:30

Aaron Kaufman, Producer

45:32

Morgan Levoy, Research

45:34

assistant Marissa Brown. Original

45:38

music Sorry Baby by Mini

45:40

Driver, Additional

45:42

music by Aaron Kaufman, executive

45:45

produced by Me Mini Driver. Special

45:48

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Pearson, Addison No Day,

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