0:01

Hello, and welcome to Mikey Podd podcast, episode 351 for October 6th, 2022.

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Today's guest is Christopher Willits, who by the way,

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is making his third appearance on the podcast, um,

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and will be talking about his latest album, Gravity,

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which either I've not been paying attention or this is a bit more of a,

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um, personal work for him. Every time I talk to Christopher,

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we get into these really cool, deep conversations about process and being humans. And ah,

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it's a really great conversation. Um,

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and he's also a huge inspirational force in my work,

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which I sort of mentioned at the beginning of this interview. Um,

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I'm so happy to share this interview with you. You're gonna love it. <laugh>.

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I'm your host, by the way, Michael Herron. I'm a composer, pianist,

0:45

electronic musician, storyteller, and activist based in New York City.

0:48

On this podcast, I have conversations with fellow creators who use their creativity to change the

0:54

world. I've been sending this podcast to your ears for over 17 years.

0:58

If you like what you hear, subscribe using the colorful buttons and the sidebar and [email protected].

1:03

Or just search Mikey Podd in your favorite podcast directory.

1:06

If you'd like to know more about me, stop by my [email protected].

1:10

Hit me up on social, I gotta take that out. <laugh>,

1:13

I usually say hit me up on social media everywhere as Michael at Michael Herron,

1:18

but on my social media's turned off.

1:20

So email [email protected] or you

1:25

can join us in the Discord. Uh, I'll put a link there. There's a Discord server.

1:30

Uh, there are a few of us very active in there, and I would love for more, uh,

1:34

podcast listeners to come by. So, uh, check the show notes and you could just,

1:37

uh, click a little thing and go to Discord, which is like a gigantic,

1:41

I don't even still know how to describe Discord, but it's,

1:44

it feels like a very safe place, <laugh>. So join us there. Uh, hello.

1:49

Welcome to the show. Yeah, so I cut off my social media.

1:53

I have mentioned that on the show already, and it's really great.

1:57

It's like, um, I was spending a lot of energy.

2:02

I've talked about this before, but it's been nice to like, take that sort of,

2:07

and every time I talk about it, I wanna make sure I'm being clear that it's not just social media that was the

2:14

problem. It was the way I was engaging with social media, and, um,

2:17

I was really using it as a,

2:20

as a distraction tool and a procrastination tool, um,

2:24

but also as a outlet for my frustration

2:29

about things that are going on in the world that I didn't like my own.

2:33

So I was arguing a lot with people who really were just wanting to argue.

2:38

Um, and I'm really happy to not be doing that.

2:41

And it's been really cool to like, start to kind of backtrack.

2:45

And I've like signed up for this news reader. I used to use News Blur,

2:49

and I've like signed, like, it's, I'm just being more, um,

2:55

uh, mindful about how I'm consuming and what I'm connecting with.

3:00

Um, when before, like, you know, like Facebook felt like this big flood of, you know,

3:05

I'd be follow following all these things I wanted to stay on top of.

3:09

And then it just, it's so much, it was too hard to,

3:13

to really connect with any of it. So it's been really cool to like,

3:16

be very mindful about connecting with things. And, um,

3:21

kind of, it's been a really cool period of cleaning up the back end of my website

3:27

of re just, I'm cleaning house in like my digital world organizing files.

3:33

I feel like I'm clearing the way for some new creation,

3:36

which I'm very excited about. It's been a long time.

3:38

And one of the things that I really thought about too was that I used to be a

3:42

lot more personal on the podcast, and I sort of missed that. Uh,

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one of the things that I've been doing has been assembling this huge playlist of

3:51

all the music I've ever played on the podcast. And, um,

3:55

so it's enabled me to sort of look more closely at the, at the posts, uh,

4:00

on Mikey Podd and what I used to talk about.

4:03

And the engagement used to be a lot different. So, uh,

4:06

I think right now I'm kind of doing that now, aren't I? Um,

4:10

and one of the things that was really interesting was Archer Radio.

4:12

I don't know if you've listened to this podcast. It's really great. Um, I've,

4:17

I've kind of have been going back and listening to podcasts.

4:20

I used to listen to that. I stopped over the, over a while.

4:23

So Archer and I have been talking in his comments about commenting <laugh>,

4:27

which is a lost art, um, because social media, that darn social media.

4:32

So, uh, anyway, check out Archer Radio. I think it's archer radio.com,

4:35

but you could just search in your podcast, uh, thing. And, uh, <laugh>,

4:40

that's the technical term. And, uh,

4:42

just to subscribe and find his podcast there. It's very, uh, it's very journaly,

4:47

but the more I'm look listening to podcasts,

4:50

I really appreciate this kind of podcasting when I don't really,

4:55

I mean, there are some podcasts, Oh, blah, blah, blah. Um,

4:58

but I really do appreciate that type of thing. And High Archer,

5:00

if you're listening, podcasting 2.0 is super interesting to me,

5:04

and I still don't know how to talk about it. But <laugh> check out,

5:08

like there's some a apps that feature these bon these, uh, new features.

5:13

Um, and one of them is being able to, uh,

5:18

pay, like as a listener, I don't even, I can't even describe it,

5:22

but it's in Bitcoin, which I know like causes people to glaze over.

5:26

But check out the Fountain app, which I've been doing. And, um,

5:29

you can actually send Boosts to a podcast you're listening to.

5:32

And that app pays you for listening to podcasts like a, uh, what's it called?

5:36

A Satoshi, which is a fragment of a Bitcoin. But it's really interesting,

5:41

It's interesting hearing this conversation about that stuff. Uh,

5:44

and I think it's important to, um, to, uh, support this movement.

5:48

I wanna get one of the guys from Podcast Index on the show,

5:52

but I can't figure out how to reach them because I'm not on social media

5:55

anymore. <laugh>. So the last thing I wanna talk about is the NYC Podcaster Expo,

6:00

which is a, uh, a little, it's like a mini convention.

6:04

Yes. The second annual mini convention. I missed the first Shame on me. Uh,

6:09

it's this Sunday. Um, I'll put a link with more information about that.

6:12

I'll be speaking with my friend Sebastian, about fading away from Pod Fade. Um,

6:17

and I hope you can make it if you do come by and say hello.

6:20

So we're gonna listen to a track from Christopher Willett's new album,

6:24

but I want to first make sure I thank my subscribers on Patreon for powering

6:29

this podcast. These are people who subscribe for $5 or more a month,

6:32

Think it special perks, like tons of free downloads of my music and zines and bonus podcasts.

6:37

They're close to 80 of those bonus podcasts on the

6:41

Patreon, which you will have immediate access to when you subscribe,

6:45

including this week's bonus episode,

6:47

which features an extended conversation with today's guest, Christopher Willits,

6:51

which you're gonna be clamoring for because this conversation is so good.

6:54

You're gonna be sad that it's over and it'll be okay cuz you could just go to

6:59

Patreon and download, uh, that extra bonus episode.

7:02

So before we get to that interview,

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I would like for you to listen to a new track from Christopher's album, Gravity.

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This track is called Crescent, and one of the things he suggests,

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and if you're in a place where you could do this

7:18

laying down and just listening to this music, um,

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maybe that's more of a suggestion for the whole album.

7:24

But if you're in a place you could do it. You, maybe you could at least close your eyes, maybe you're sitting on the train. Um,

7:29

if you're driving, don't close your eyes. Um,

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but think of a different way to really engage with this, with this music.

7:37

This is Crescent. That was Crescent from Christopher Willett's brand new album,

13:33

Gravity. And Christopher here joined me for the third time on the podcast.

13:37

Welcome. Thanks for having me again. It's been three times. That is amazing.

13:42

Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. <laugh>, we were just talking before we started recording about, uh,

13:46

it's been a long time. I'm gonna have to hesitate or like resist going into a whole thing about, um,

13:53

well, whatever I talk to, I guess I'm not gonna resist doing that.

13:56

I think about like, a lot of just meeting you and having you on the podcast sort of introduced me to

14:00

Ableton live through your, uh, what you talking about Wills.

14:04

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. So, and it completely changed everything that I do. Uh, so <laugh>,

14:10

I'm excited about that, and thank you for that influence.

14:12

Oh my gosh, that's, yeah. Well, thanks Ableton for the incredible tools as well.

14:17

Before we get too far away from it, we should talk about the track that we just heard, Crescent.

14:22

Yeah. There's a lot, like this whole album weaves through all these different emotions I was feeling

14:27

for the last two years. And it's really, I think of a,

14:30

as one piece and each of the pieces, or, you know,

14:35

each of the tracks <laugh> are, are part of this whole,

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and Crescent leads it off with this feeling

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that, uh, kind of goes through much of the whole,

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the whole album. Um,

14:51

it's this simultaneous feeling of like

14:56

inspiration, but also some sorrow in there. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

15:00

But ultimately it ends up in inspiration. Uh, it always,

15:04

it always does in, in some mysterious way because, you know,

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whatever grief or sorrow you're experiencing, you start to, you know,

15:13

as you listen to that and really understand where that's coming from,

15:17

um, you learn and then that brings joy and inspiration.

15:21

So that kind of, that thread of, of, um,

15:26

you know, feeling is going through the whole album. And Crescent for me,

15:29

really kinda leaves it off. It. Um, it's really, I mean, this whole,

15:34

this whole album is about slowing down and letting things fall

15:39

into place. Just gravity as a surface, you know,

15:43

gravity as a, as a, as this flow that, you know,

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things are just settling and coming into where they need to be.

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And the, the, the title of present actually came from an experience.

15:58

It was like really a microcosm of that. I was, uh, working on this music and

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a lot of, a lot of things were happening with my mother's health at the time.

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It was really ramping up. Uh, she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, uh,

16:12

a few different, uh, or a few years ago.

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She actually had a couple different diagnoses where, um,

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it was dementia and then it was like Alzheimer's.

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And I just kept getting worse and worse. And Crescent really emerged like,

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um, during the peak of realizing that, you know,

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she needed 24 7 care. Um, she was falling down a lot.

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She like almost let the house on fire at one point. Oh wow. And, um,

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coming to that realization was heavy. You like really heavy.

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Um, you know, this person is just such a creative force.

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My mom is just absolutely incredible. And then all of a sudden she can't do every everyday things that, uh,

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she just took for granted. And I remember going outside, I was,

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I was working on the music and went outside and just the most beautiful crescent

17:00

moon was in the sky and just felt like this reminder that, you know,

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despite things being challenging, you know,

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this is like right in the height of the pandemic too. Um, this crescent moon.

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And just like that big picture perspective of our

17:16

position on the cosmos and solar system and everything just really shined a

17:21

light that, you know, this is challenging now,

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but we're gonna get through it and I can just let things fall into place.

17:27

So that's really what Crescent is about. So I think that was really the,

17:32

maybe the second track. It's interesting when you're making an album,

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it kind of like, there's a momentum that starts to build. Um,

17:41

and that was the second track that really kind of validated this,

17:46

this direction for the whole album. The first one, uh,

17:49

being the track spinning, which is track seven.

17:52

It's funny to hear about the, the, uh,

17:55

sequence of the tracks being created for some reason,

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even though I know this isn't true for most people, I'm like, Oh yeah,

18:02

I guess you didn't write them in the exact order that they're appearing on the

18:05

album. Yeah, no, definitely not. Like spinning was the first track for a long time.

18:11

And then, um, and then Creston just was like, Nope. Need to be there.

18:15

It's interesting. It's, uh, it's, you can't really, for me, I can't really like,

18:20

analyze what's happening. It's very mysterious process. It just becomes very,

18:24

very clear to me on a, a very intuitive level,

18:27

more like heart based level, less of a mind kind of thinking kind of strategy.

18:33

Um, the music starts to just say, Hey, I, I want to go this direction,

18:38

or I wanna be in this sequence. Um, and it's,

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it's my job to, to tend to that flow.

18:44

There's so many things as we're talking to, I'm like, oh,

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like so many potential topics like to,

18:51

or questions from a lot of this. I guess the first one that,

18:55

that I was thinking when you were talking about Crescent and, you know,

18:58

the experience of seeing that moon and the idea of gravity,

19:01

Like when I first think of gravity, I think of like a pole, right?

19:06

Like something that's grabbing us and and jerking us down to the

19:11

earth. But it's interesting that your take about it,

19:15

the way you described it, was more about kind of settling.

19:19

And I feel like I'm kind of feeling that energy from your work a lot.

19:22

And also from what you're saying now of, um,

19:25

I don't know if acceptance is the right word, but just sort of this Yeah.

19:28

Kind of awareness of like, this is, this is everything.

19:32

Some of it feels bad or good, but it is the thing that it is.

19:38

Yeah. Gravity is, um,

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it's, it's really this surface. It's very graceful and, and,

19:47

and it's, it's, it's not even, um,

19:52

this force, you know, we, we kind of are old school, um,

19:57

way of thinking about gravity is, it's like, yeah, what,

20:00

what goes up must come down type thing. But, um,

20:03

relativity has shown us that, you know, gravity is a surface. It's, uh,

20:08

it's bending time space, uh, light, you know, energy itself.

20:13

And the more matter something has,

20:17

the more gravitational pull it has, the more it's able to bend the surface.

20:22

And, um, it's, it's, uh, on a metaphorical level,

20:27

it's this, you know, when you're kind of surfing those wave that,

20:31

that mass of, uh, attraction, that mass of,

20:36

um, modulation in a sense, you know,

20:41

you, you're letting go. You're,

20:43

you're just trusting that this process is happening.

20:46

You're letting things come to be. So this is a big part of the inspiration of a lot of the imagery that came with

20:51

the album as well. All the pictures came from White Sands National Park in, uh,

20:57

in New Mexico. And I visited there when I was actually going back, See my mom.

21:01

This is like, when all the fights were shut down. So I was like,

21:05

I'm just gonna drive. I'm gonna drive my, uh,

21:08

my Volkswagen bus out there and just make it happen.

21:11

And on the way I stopped in, um, on the way and on the way back, um,

21:16

stopped in White Sands and had some journeys out there,

21:19

and the patterns of the sand and the way that they're falling in the place and

21:23

everything I was, I was always kind of, um, fascinated by this place.

21:27

And even like, dreams about it and stuff, I had never actually visited there.

21:30

And being there was actually, um,

21:32

even more vivid <laugh> and amazing than the dreams.

21:36

And it was, uh, around the time when I started playing with the idea of Gravity being the,

21:42

the title of the album. And this place just epitomizes like,

21:46

the way that things have just fall into place,

21:48

and all these different patterns have emerged from, you know,

21:52

the macro of the, uh, the waves of the dunes,

21:57

but also on this micro level where you're seeing actually this fr

22:02

of the larger macro waves of the dunes. And this almost like a pattern,

22:06

almost like a language really. It looks like a language that's on the actual,

22:11

uh, dunes themselves. Um,

22:14

so I decided just to hone in on, uh, those curves.

22:19

Cause I really saw a reflection in those curves and the way that the music was

22:23

flowing and, uh, this very slow low,

22:28

um, wavelike cord melody motion. And,

22:33

um, for me, yeah, just the word gravity, it, it made so much sense.

22:38

Um, makes so much sense too. The process I was going through. I mean,

22:43

it was heavy <laugh>. Yeah. It had a lot of weight to it. And,

22:48

but what I was learning is just a deeper flow into letting go

22:53

and, and, and really listening to everything that was going on.

22:59

And I think the music really allowed me, uh,

23:02

to do that to a greater capacity as well.

23:05

It was just incredibly, the relaxing and inspiring

23:13

to sit down and know that this,

23:15

this music was really like a representation of the feelings

23:20

that, um, very complex feelings, um,

23:24

that I was experiencing. You know? So there was this beautiful feedback loop that was happening to what I'm feeling

23:29

and what I'm creating, and then I'm listening to the things I'm creating,

23:33

and that's also influencing what I'm feeling. And then the music just takes on this life of its own.

23:38

Hmm. Thinking about, uh, becoming so, uh,

23:43

acquainted with our parents' mortality.

23:46

Mm-hmm. <Affirmative> is, uh, it, it's kind of conversation with you.

23:50

It's always like this for me that I'm like, Whoa, I'm thinking about a lot of things from a new perspective and just that idea of

23:56

mortality and even death being part of what makes everything else

24:02

possible that we experience. Totally. And, and that's what was so weird about this too,

24:08

Like this meaning, um, specifically, um, you know,

24:12

we're talking about our parents mortality and I was talking about my mother, um,

24:16

and how she has Alzheimer's. And uh, just,

24:19

it's an absolutely surreal experience because at some points you're actually

24:24

wondering, you know, would this be easier if she could just, you know,

24:31

pass or mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's such a,

24:34

that's such a confusing thought to have, but that's truly how painful and challenging it is

24:41

at times. Cause uh, you know, it's,

24:46

it's a complete shift in the way the brain is working and

24:51

loss of words and, and, you know, it affects everybody in different ways.

24:55

So no one can really tell you like, Okay,

24:59

well this is gonna happen next and then you can expect this <laugh>. You know,

25:02

it's a, yeah. It's a completely non-linear journey. Um,

25:07

so I'm just really grateful for my whole family, my sister, my dad, um,

25:12

our, our extended family. I mean, just incredible,

25:15

incredible people that all just stepped up and supported each other. And,

25:19

you know, each step of the way we're kinda like, Hey, <laugh>,

25:22

we're improvising this experience together,

25:24

and what do we do that's best for mom? Um, yeah.

25:28

And I think we got through it in a, in a really beautiful way, but I, it is, uh,

25:33

yeah, <laugh>, you know, my dad was saying this the other day, you know,

25:37

it's like none of us gets outta here alive, you know? And, um, I,

25:42

I like his kind of courageous embrace of, of mortality.

25:47

Um, and I kinda wonder, like with everything my mom's going through,

25:51

I'm wondering like, what capacity does she have to reflect on that right now?

25:55

Cause I know that there's been a lot of fear too, you know,

25:59

the change of her living situation and, um,

26:03

just confusion. You know, like you, it's,

26:06

it's when your brain is like sending, um,

26:11

signals in, in these different places or there's,

26:14

there's parts that are kind of jammed up and, and it's not,

26:17

it's not sending those, uh, al impulses, uh,

26:21

the same way it always has. It's like there's a lot of confusion that's going on. Um,

26:28

but I, I think just the simple,

26:31

the simple act of reflecting on mortality is, um, incredibly,

26:36

incredibly powerful cuz it helps us to really embrace the present moment on a

26:41

deeper level. Yeah. The, the idea of, um,

26:46

I'm going back to you something that you described your process of creating

26:51

music as, uh, this is my interpretation of it, of almost like, uh,

26:55

kind of getting, getting, uh,

26:58

your direction from the music as it's emerging.

27:03

Um, Absolutely. How was it to discover, this is like a big question, I think,

27:07

How was it to discover that process?

27:10

Like what that's, that feels like a potentially really big question.

27:16

Well, I think that, I think from a young age, I understood that, um,

27:21

they create a process goes where it needs to go.

27:25

There is this mysterious ebb and flow, um,

27:30

that's occurring. And what I can do as a creator to show up with

27:36

the vibe, with the intention, with like, why am I making this?

27:41

It could be a big idea that's related to other people could be something just

27:45

like, Hey, I just wanna play or explore this thing, or whatever it is. Um,

27:50

but grounding that initial kind of like, um,

27:55

arrow of the compass, so to speak, um,

27:59

is kind of all we can do <laugh>. Like, um,

28:06

whenever, I mean, some people work a little bit differently maybe,

28:09

but I just have never found that the creative process, um,

28:15

is going to bend to your,

28:20

uh, your sense of control or your ego, uh, to an effect.

28:25

It's, it is life force itself,

28:28

and it's much bigger than you. And I've always found that the,

28:35

the most kind of resonant music, the music that really sounds the best to me,

28:39

means the most to me, is always music. That I've set the intention and the general direction where it's going,

28:45

and then that music starts to live and grow. And then tell me, um,

28:49

which way it wants to be. Guided. One of the things I run into with my creative process is exactly what you said

28:55

of getting into more, um, more about what I want the product to be than letting,

29:03

letting it become what it's going to be.

29:06

And I think that's kind of an ego place for me.

29:09

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. It's, it's a,

29:12

it's a beautiful paradox because when you actually surrender into the,

29:17

into the flow, it ends up in a place that's surprising and better than you

29:24

even imagined. That's what happens with me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um,

29:28

it's, uh, it's really fascinating, but I really like this,

29:33

this, um, this thread of like the creative process and life force,

29:38

you know, I mean, everything is connected. Um,

29:42

and to me it's, it's, uh, the, you know,

29:46

I think an image that kind of like show the lines of the curves of

29:51

this is like, uh, it's very, like,

29:54

you think of like life force and plants and the way the plants grow mm-hmm.

29:57

<affirmative> and the way that, like a garden or, uh,

30:00

nurtures or intervenes in that process, Um,

30:04

I feel very much like a gardener and this creative process is flowing,

30:09

um, and I'm tending to it. And yeah, I mean, I,

30:13

I know how I want my garden to look, and I wanna push and pull it this way,

30:17

that way, but I ultimately, as this gardener,

30:20

I can't dictate the way that, um,

30:23

this moringga tree is going to look <laugh> or the way my, um,

30:29

kale shows up and, and the curves and the, and the lines and the veins.

30:33

You know, it's gonna look similar to what you think it's gonna be,

30:36

but it's gonna have its own life, you know? So I think,

30:41

uh, the most powerful music respects that in a lot of ways. Um,

30:48

you know, it's like, it's, it's always, there's always a level of improvisation,

30:51

even if you're, you know, writing stuff down and,

30:54

and scoring things and whatnot. And in this case, you know,

30:57

like working for hours and hours, um,

31:00

producing this immersive, this immersive sound that's moving in three dimensions around people.

31:08

Um, it's, uh, it's ultimately this, this dance <laugh> of,

31:16

of all of this, all of these vibrations coming into one and, um,

31:22

and creating this, this space ultimately to,

31:26

it's a space for slowing down, and it's a space for,

31:30

for just letting things fall into place.

31:34

What, what's the moment I'm trying to describe You? Just, there are, it's,

31:37

this conversation is like making me think of a lot of different things.

31:40

So I have these moments of like, ah, okay. But in a good way.

31:45

Awesome. Yeah. It's, it's, I mean,

31:50

this is one of our struggles as humans, right?

31:53

It's like we have the power to control,

31:57

but we, we think we can control, right?

31:59

But we actually we're just part of this larger whole,

32:05

um, yeah, we need to direct the energy and that life force in the,

32:10

in the way that can be beneficial to ourselves and, um,

32:14

people around us. But, um, we can't, we can't control it.

32:19

That process. Like, think of it as a creative process. Um, well,

32:23

I guess our lives are creative processes too, when you really think about it.

32:26

But I think that's totally, you know, the, the times in my life when I've kind of just followed

32:33

direction rather than, you know, chosen my own,

32:38

like, exact destination or something that I wanted to happen,

32:42

the times I've been able to just sort of let the flow happen mm-hmm.

32:46

<affirmative>, it's always paid off. It's always turned into something better than I could have thought of.

32:52

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a lot about our vision. I mean, that's kind of,

32:56

when I'm talking about the beginning of what I'm creating,

32:58

it's like setting this intention or this vibe or whatever.

33:01

It's envisioning what this space looks like,

33:05

and that's a combination of sounds and emotions and imagery,

33:09

but it's just this general vibe and this feeling.

33:13

And I'm envisioning that, but I'm not getting into the future.

33:17

I'm actually, it's like headlights of a car, seeing what's coming up,

33:21

but I'm not actually in that, you know,

33:24

wherever that mountain is that the light is shining out. I'm actually,

33:26

I'm in the car <laugh> driving in the present moment,

33:30

and then my vision's shining out so I can kind of, you know,

33:33

get an idea of what's coming up. But I'm not, like,

33:37

I'm not trying to, um, I'm not trying to control

33:43

the outcome. I'm envisioning where I want it to go. So there's like a,

33:47

there's a, a light touch and a, and a, a really drastic difference in,

33:52

in the flow right there. Um, you know, I,

33:56

I teach a lot of classes and I, I've noticed with a lot of, um,

34:00

especially younger students that, um, there,

34:05

there's kind of this almost judgment or expectation of themselves that they

34:10

are going to create this thing that may, you know,

34:14

it's like, sounds like something they've heard before, perhaps. Um,

34:19

and it's really just this judgment on themselves. I mean,

34:23

you could be inspired by something and be like, Okay, I wanna emulate, you know,

34:26

a certain track or whatever. Um, but there, there's a sense of control.

34:31

It's really, it's, it's ultimately linked to this kind of fear of failure or

34:37

rejection of others or of themself. And there's just a lot of judgment.

34:41

And so they're never actually getting into the space where

34:46

they can just allow what they envision to occur.

34:50

They're kind of just in this fear state of like, Oh, how do I make this,

34:53

you know, sound better to be this way or this way? Um, and it's,

34:58

you know, it's not a, it's just a matter of practice, you know, it's, uh,

35:03

it's not anything that's like, Okay, we'll do this and do this like a recipe.

35:06

It's truly just a, a matter of practice and listening to what you wanna do and experimenting and

35:12

seeing how that comes out, like thousands and thousands of times.

35:15

And then you start to realize that subtle,

35:18

that subtle touch and the grace that comes with really,

35:23

um, authentically created music, you know,

35:26

music that's coming from your heart and it's growing out.

35:30

It's not something that's like this preconceived idea of like,

35:34

this is where it needs to fit into the market <laugh>, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

35:38

A's certain genre or certain things like this, you know, it's, um,

35:43

just, just music, you know, It doesn't, it doesn't have to,

35:48

it doesn't have to be labeled, uh, this way or that.

35:51

That is, uh, there's so much, there's so much loaded or,

35:55

or potentially loaded into being an artist or just

36:00

allowing ourselves to think about ourselves as artists. And then, you know,

36:04

like, there's just so much, so many levels of

36:10

validation that we feel like we need. I'm speaking for my,

36:15

for myself here too. Like, there's a lot of that that, you know,

36:18

and what you were talking about, about allowing music to be what it is going to become

36:24

without trying to, you know, direct it. Well,

36:28

it's so much of what we have already been saying, um, but it's,

36:32

I'm just kind of being aware, like you were talking about marketing and genre and all of those type of things

36:37

that also, you know, become something that we're trying to turn our kale into in the garden, right?

36:44

Mm-hmm. <affirmative> when it's really just gonna be kale.

36:48

<Laugh>. Yeah. I mean, it's just, you know,

36:52

I I, I just see that, um, within myself that's like,

36:57

if I'm, I've fully given up over the years,

37:02

but like when I was younger, I've,

37:04

I think that there was definitely kinda an impulse to be like,

37:07

I wanna really control the outcome of what this thing is,

37:11

the outcome in terms of like, what it is not the outcome of like,

37:16

why does it exist and how is it

37:20

operating? How is it creating a space? How is it helping people or,

37:25

you know, anything or augmenting someone's inspiration or experience just

37:31

in general, you know? So yeah. It's, uh,

37:36

it's just, it's just something over the years. It's like,

37:39

just have to completely let go of,

37:42

because if I'm trying so hard

37:47

to make this certain thing be what I think it should be,

37:52

then I'm not truly showing up in the moment to let it

37:57

be what it is and what, um,

38:02

what it needs to be. Right. <laugh>.

38:05

Yeah. Um, you know, it's a very kinda, I mean, it's very comic in a way.

38:09

Cause what's what's the point of making, you know,

38:13

your heart's music if you're not truly completing,

38:18

um, a new chapter in the journey? And if you're kind of what you were saying of like,

38:24

kinda chasing things, it's like if you're in that mode,

38:29

um, you know, like

38:34

it's just, uh, there's, there's ways where you can,

38:39

you can zoom out and really think about how,

38:43

how your music is functioning, um,

38:46

for yourself and with humanity

38:51

in general. <laugh>,

38:54

instead of it being this thing where it's so driven

38:59

by a desire to kind of fit into

39:04

a certain thing or form into a certain image and,

39:08

and all these things. Um, just think that, uh,

39:14

for me, um, I'm always striving to make the most authentic music.

39:22

And a lot of times that ends up being things that I never really heard

39:26

before, um, from myself or maybe other places too.

39:32

Um, and it's, and it's a discovery of that vision and that

39:39

intention that I planted like a seed, you know,

39:44

sometimes years ago. But then after thousands of touches

39:50

and movements through this emerging space, and all of a sudden,

39:55

you know, this experience grows out in a way that I would've never

40:00

really, um, imagined in that exact form. But it's,

40:05

it's, it's occupying this,

40:08

this space <laugh> in a way that's often better than what I was even originally

40:13

thinking it would be. Yeah.

40:16

It's really fun <laugh>. Yeah, it's.

40:19

Really incredible. It's kind of cool to think about the, the,

40:23

the sort of the path of your releases and like,

40:27

when I first became aware of your music, it, it, it's,

40:31

there's still a definite connection, but it's a, it's a big difference in,

40:36

in action in. A way. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

40:40

I was reflecting on that recently because the 20 year anniversary of Fold Amen.

40:45

The tea is coming up here, I believe it's like next month.

40:49

And that was released in 2002. That was kind of my first official, you know,

40:54

distributed release as, uh, under my, my own name. Yeah.

40:59

And yeah, just, it just kind of hit me, It's like, oh wow,

41:03

it's been 20 years of putting this music out and then kind of

41:08

tracing the thread of how the music keeps changing in different ways. And,

41:13

um, yeah, what you said is interesting cuz it actually was resonating with what I was

41:18

doing. I was like, like harmonically, there's this similar thing that I'm always wanting to explore

41:25

in these like, um, cord melody type work.

41:31

Um, it's almost like making music that's just like, uh,

41:36

it's like elongated, slowed down guitar solos, <laugh>,

41:41

or something like this. Like it's, yeah, it's like, it's, uh, the,

41:45

the chords and the melodies kind of all go together, but then I've been,

41:49

you know, playing with different, all these different ways to do it over the years,

41:52

and there's definitely been a number of twists and turns and so, so grateful,

41:58

um, for all the exploration. And I remember thinking when I was younger, like,

42:04

um, I kinda made a promise to myself. I was like, I'm never, you know,

42:08

I'm always gonna be listening to where the music wants to go,

42:12

which is gonna be, you know, extricable linked to my own personal, um,

42:19

evolution and journey, um, and this whole cosmos here.

42:23

And so, um, to really do the music, um, and this,

42:28

and myself and the process and the people around me, um, to do them,

42:34

do them good. It's like I have to surrender my

42:39

kind of, uh, expectations of like how things should end up sounding <laugh>. Um,

42:46

and I'm, it's really liberating, but it's also, you,

42:51

you're kind of like looking into the abyss a little bit too. Um,

42:54

but ultimately I think I've been really a much happier artist over these

42:59

last 20 years. Um, there's never been like an existential crisis. Like,

43:04

what am I doing <laugh> and, you know,

43:06

or feeling locked into some type of a sound because that's what everyone's

43:09

expecting you to do. I've always just been like, I want people to expect that I'm just gonna, you know,

43:15

I want people to expect that they're not gonna expect something in a way. Yeah.

43:20

Like even the next album from Gravity, it's, you know,

43:23

might be a whole hundred 80 degree turn from that. And Sure.

43:27

On one side that might be like, you know,

43:30

some people would say that's like this bargaining suicide or something.

43:34

And it's like, well, you know, sorry, that's just,

43:39

this is what, if this is the music that needs to happen at this time,

43:43

then that's gonna happen. You know, it's like, I'm not gonna be,

43:47

I'm not gonna be, uh, changing that just because, you know,

43:51

people think this needs to happen or, or something else needs to happen,

43:55

You know what I mean? That that would be authentic, um,

43:58

music in my opinion.

44:02

Yeah. This is, they're like, a lot of times in these conversations on,

44:07

on the podcast that I, they're little moments that I'm like, Oh,

44:11

this is why I'm talking to this person. Like, per my,

44:14

my personal <laugh> like unlocking. And, um,

44:18

I think a lot of what kind of, in my creative process lately,

44:22

something about the pandemic really kind of made me start thinking like, Well,

44:26

I don't know what I'm, I wanna make next.

44:29

And it's really interesting to think about, like, maybe just start making it and see.

44:34

What it's, Oh my gosh, yes. I mean,

44:38

that's how everything begins for me is like,

44:42

just play, you know? Yeah. Um,

44:46

having a vision of where things can go and then just playing.

44:51

And then sometimes the intention will just be

44:57

to explore, you know? That's fine. That's like enough of a, you know,

45:01

direction. Just explore <laugh>. Yeah. See what, see what feels good,

45:05

Try a new technique, try this, try that.

45:08

And then something comes up and then that sparks the vision and

45:13

then you're like, Okay, now I can see these things falling into place and you slow down with it. Listen.

45:19

And then just work your ass off <laugh>. And that's the trick too, right?

45:23

Because I worked my ass off on this album,

45:27

but the whole time I was reminding myself to have a light touch, you know,

45:32

and to constantly, like, if something needs to be changed,

45:35

it doesn't matter where I'm in the process, I'm gonna do that. And, um,

45:40

gratefully over time you learn how you work and you learn how these, how the,

45:44

this mysterious flow of creativity starts to emerge through your body and out

45:48

into the music. And, you know, I can know that, okay,

45:52

this is the time of the album that I'm probably gonna think the whole thing is

45:55

just horrible <laugh>, and that's okay. You know,

45:59

like that's part of the process. And then I'm gonna get through that,

46:02

and then there's gonna be another mountain and that's fine too. You know. Um,

46:06

there's always that time, like towards the end of, um,

46:10

like compos, it's basically when I'm, I'm starting to like mix.

46:15

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, you know, I've, I've put down all,

46:21

you know, um, instruments, so no, I'm not adding guitar anymore,

46:26

or bass scent or whatever is, is in there. I'm just like, Okay,

46:31

that's done. I'm going to, to mixing.

46:34

And there's always gonna be a time where I'm just like,

46:38

it's almost like a little bit of a grieving, um,

46:43

cuz you know, it's like you, you must surrender <laugh> and, and, uh,

46:47

and then it turns quick. You know, it's just like a phase of the moon.

46:50

All of a sudden. It's just like you listen,

46:53

give yourself a little space maybe and listen again. You're like, Oh my gosh,

46:56

this, this is, I was just in my head, you know?

47:00

I was just completely creating this whole reality.

47:04

And so now when I start to have little like, kind of seeds of those thoughts, I,

47:08

I am like, ah, I can laugh at it. I'm be like, Wow,

47:10

that's something that's so interesting that like, um, I'm kind of, you know,

47:17

experiencing this from like a different vantage point. You know,

47:20

I can see the ups and downs. I can kind of almost have like a look ahead <laugh> to know, okay,

47:25

well there's a valley coming up here and it's all good.

47:28

And then it's not really a valley, you know, it's, it's just,

47:32

it's just part of the, part of the flow. Yeah. Oh yeah. So like letting all of it,

47:39

that's our, that's the takeaway. Let it all, like all the whole process, the.

47:43

Music, let it all fall into place. Yeah. And your response to it and your like inevitable, um,

47:49

push and pull with what you think of your own work.

47:53

It's just part of the experience.

47:56

It's so fun. I mean, yeah. Kind of talking deeper into that a little bit,

48:01

it's like finding the balance of

48:06

working very hard towards this

48:11

objective, you know, like finishing an album, let's say. Um,

48:15

and at the same time, you know,

48:19

surrendering to what it is, um, it's,

48:24

it's, it's just an incredible, um,

48:27

balancing act at times because there are,

48:32

there are moments where you've just got to

48:37

like, put your seatbelt on and just dig into

48:42

some, like, the work that maybe isn't as fun <laugh>, you know? Yeah.

48:47

You gotta just, you gotta just, um, chop the wood and carry the water.

48:52

And then, but when you relieve the judgment that, Oh,

48:56

this isn't as fun as playing guitar, You know, I'm talking about like,

48:59

once you get into mixing stuff or really just the first,

49:04

first kind of phases of mixing for me, I'm,

49:07

you gotta kinda like warm up into the process. Cause I'm like, ah,

49:10

I just wanna keep playing guitar <laugh>. Yeah. And so let it go.

49:14

And then all of a sudden it just like opens up and it's like the, you know,

49:18

it's the most fun thing in the world to just, um,

49:22

explore like exactly where these different frequencies need to fall

49:27

into place with each other. And just that tiny little bit of compression and which tool,

49:32

or should I use this like analog compressor on there that has this

49:37

very subtle thing, Should I use this other digital tool that's doing this thing?

49:42

And you start to, these very microscopic kind of details start to emerge

49:49

that are related to the whole larger flow, um,

49:53

of like the core progressions and, and the different, um,

49:57

wavelike motion of this, this core melody work and stuff like that. So it's,

50:02

um, it's, it's really just about being present when you, when you boil it down,

50:07

you know, it's like you're,

50:09

you're envisioning this experience and

50:14

every single moment that you are touching and creating,

50:19

uh, this music, you are, you are embodying that experience.

50:23

Right? So it's like every, every single touch is kind of like,

50:30

it all, like stratifies into this experience that

50:35

that happens, uh, you know, in a,

50:38

in a linear sense in the future. But we're actually every moment creating it through that.

50:44

So it's, it's actually just like very non-linear kind of

50:50

timeless thing. Cause at the very beginning I'm seeing an envisioning kinda where it's gonna go,

50:55

but I'm not controlling it. And then as I get to the end, then I'm also seeing,

51:00

you know, or or kind of reflecting on these are,

51:04

these are the inspirations of the vibes and the space that like,

51:08

brought this to be. And now it's,

51:11

it's showing up for me in a way that, um, I maybe didn't expect.

51:16

Um, but it's, you know, it's,

51:19

it's completing this really important, uh,

51:22

process or kind of chapter for me.

51:26

Uh, it's always so good to talk to you about this stuff. It's like.

51:30

Really, It's cool. Cause yeah, it seems like our conversations usually tend to fall on creative process things.

51:36

That's really cool. Yeah. I mean, cause you're a creator man. Yeah. And you,

51:39

and you're like, you're, you're making within so many different materials and things.

51:45

So it's like you're, And I think that's, that's part of it too.

51:48

You start to understand these different kind of like, wave lengths of, it's all,

51:53

it's all connected for sure. But there's these different wave lengths of, um,

51:57

you know, for me it's like the, the music and it's all the components of that music and it's like the visuals

52:04

and then, um, it's, you know, the,

52:09

the writing and stuff. Cause I do a lot of writing that goes around it and it all just,

52:13

it informs each other in a different way and they all have these

52:18

different kind of like, nuances to it. Um,

52:22

so yeah, I think maybe it's like, cuz you,

52:25

you've worked with all these kind of different materials, um,

52:29

and you've been exploring all these different sounds and ways to kinda present

52:33

those to people. Um, this, you know,

52:37

that this conversational like creative process really becomes like

52:41

foregrounded cuz you're always exploring.

52:43

And it is a really good reinforcement of the exploration part of

52:48

all of that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

52:51

Yeah. Really is, it's all an exploration. That is for sure.

52:57

<Laugh> beautiful. I'm looking at the time and it's,

53:01

we need to wrap up this part of our conversation, but I want talk wrap up about,

53:04

we're gonna wrap it up, but I wanna listen to Regrowth. Um,

53:10

is there anything you wanna say about regrowth before we, uh,

53:13

say goodbye and listen to. The trip? Yeah, yeah. Regrowth. Um, well I just wanna,

53:20

I just wanna say, um, you know,

53:24

for anyone out there listening, thank you for listening and I encourage you to just put some headphones

53:31

on and lie down on your bed and just let this music

53:36

take you wherever it needs to go. And just feel it slow down.

53:41

Um, let things fall into place. Um, um,

53:45

and that's, you know, regrowth again,

53:49

each of these tracks is very much like these,

53:52

the same feelings I was talking about with Crescent were emerging and these

53:57

different shapes that actually came about. Uh,

54:01

it was the night after we, um,

54:04

moved my mother out of the house she created for us. And, um,

54:09

it was incredibly, uh,

54:12

surreal and bizarre and sad and, um, unknown.

54:18

And, um, got back from that and I was just like,

54:23

I was just flattened. I was just like, like a pancake <laugh>.

54:27

It was just like laying on the grounds. Like, oh man,

54:30

that is the kinda thing where it's like really hitting like the mortality level.

54:34

Um, but on this other kind of side branch where you're like,

54:39

Oh my goodness, like this is, this is a kind of a,

54:43

a torturous situation for my mother, you know, and kind of trying to,

54:48

wanting to support her, but it's like kind of feeling like we had failed.

54:52

You know, there's like a lot of kind of guilt type feelings that are coming through it

54:56

too. Cause she's like, Why can't we just take care of really 24 7? But, um,

55:01

it's just, it's really hard.

55:04

And plus we were very grateful to have the o like the options to be able to get

55:08

her into a memory care place. So, um,

55:12

regrowth basically emerged that evening and after I

55:17

was a pancake <laugh>, I was like, I need to make music. And then I just,

55:22

I just kept hearing these chords. I just wanted to this,

55:27

uh, very, very like stripped down and misty, um,

55:34

chord melody thing to happen. And as I started playing the music,

55:40

really just expressing what I was feeling, um,

55:45

I could just feel all this. I, it really felt like my heart was regrowing.

55:50

It was like this whole paradigm shift was happening at our family at this time.

55:54

And also this shift of um,

56:00

you know, like my relationship to my mom.

56:03

She took care of me and now I'm taking care of her <laugh>, you know,

56:07

that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this whole role reversal thing that we experience in our lives. Um,

56:12

I could just feel this regrowth happening. So that's,

56:16

that's why it's called Regrowth. Uh, I'm really looking forward to re-listening to these tracks,

56:21

knowing more of the, this background.

56:24

Oh, awesome. Uh, alright. So we should listen to Regrowth, um,

56:29

and also say goodbye. Your, uh,

56:32

website is christopher willits.com and, uh, is,

56:37

well, I'll put links in the show notes for this, where to find the album. Uh,

56:41

anything else I should, we should include or say for people to track down the album and your work?

56:47

I think that's it. <laugh>. Perfect.

56:51

Just, yeah, I think you can find it. Yeah, just search,

56:54

search my name and search and it'll come up and, um,

57:01

if anyone's in San Francisco come through Envelope SF and,

57:05

uh, you can listen to it in 32 Speaker three Dimensional sound,

57:11

but headphones are nice too, so just lie down on your bed and just, uh,

57:17

just let the music take you where it needs to go.

57:20

Oh, love it. And that's on my list. I really want to go to Envelope.

57:25

Uh, maybe that's something we can talk about really briefly in the bonus podcast,

57:29

which, uh, patrons can find at patron.com/bylar. Right.

57:33

Anyway, enough of that stuff, <laugh>, I didn't wanna talk too much,

57:36

but between your description of the song and the song. So, um,

57:41

this is regrowth and thank you for joining me, Christopher.

57:45

Thank you. So. And so we come to the end of another episode of Mikey Podd.

1:02:50

Thank you so much for listening. Thank you Chris, for, for being on the show.

1:02:54

Um, always an inspiration and it's,

1:02:57

I don't know if I understated it in the beginning of this interview,

1:03:00

but literally I had not, well,

1:03:03

I had dabbled in electronic music very, very slightly.

1:03:07

Like in high school I had a great synthesizer,

1:03:10

which I wish I still had the role in Juno 1 0 6, um, back in the day.

1:03:14

Oh, I still wish I had that keyboard. Every time I mention it I'm like, Oh,

1:03:19

they're still available, but they're getting more and more expensive and there are, Anyway, this is,

1:03:25

I really miss that keyboard. Um, but, uh, the point is,

1:03:30

um, when I first met Christopher, it was through, uh,

1:03:34

Rii Sakamoto, they did an album together and I wrote to um, uh,

1:03:39

Sakamoto s I'm always concerned I'm mispronouncing his name,

1:03:42

but I think I have it right. Um, I wrote to his, um,

1:03:46

management about getting an interview and they said they couldn't set that up,

1:03:50

but would I like to talk to Christopher Willits? And I was like, Oh, okay.

1:03:53

But it was a really <laugh>, it feels like over the top to say it,

1:03:57

but it was a life changing thing because the conversations I have with him every

1:04:02

time are, um, opening for me,

1:04:06

which is interesting cuz that's the name of one of his albums.

1:04:09

And also it was through discovering his work in my conversation

1:04:14

with him and some of the tutorials he had online at the time that introduced me

1:04:18

to Ableton Live, which is what I have used as. Like,

1:04:21

it's what I'm using to make this podcast now. Like right now I'm recording on Ableton Live. Um,

1:04:26

and I learned the software and it's what I've used for my solo shows and my

1:04:30

albums. I use it for so much and it,

1:04:33

it changed the way I make music and it opened

1:04:38

the way for me to create my own music and, uh,

1:04:42

experiment and, and learn like, oh,

1:04:45

this software is so good, it's for someone like me. Like it's great. And,

1:04:50

uh, it's Christopher Woods that really directed me to it. So Christopher,

1:04:54

thank you. Um, yeah, I get,

1:04:58

I get sort of stunned thinking about, you know,

1:05:01

what's changed for me over the years. Anyway, uh, thanks so much for listening.

1:05:04

Thank you Christopher for, uh, sharing your music and your heart with this, uh, podcast.

1:05:11

And I will see all of you next time.