0:00

Hi there, it's Tucker Ligursky, a researcher

0:02

at Masters of Scale. It's

0:04

no secret that changes to the economy

0:07

can greatly impact the future of a

0:09

business, especially for those just beginning their

0:11

entrepreneurial journeys. That's why it's

0:13

essential to have a keen understanding of

0:15

economic events such as recessions, inflation, or

0:18

even fluctuating gas prices. Luckily,

0:20

our friends at the Planet Money podcast have

0:22

you covered. Each week, the

0:24

folks at Planet Money take world events and

0:26

break them down, explaining how it all ties

0:29

back to the economy. So

0:31

to better understand how the economy shapes the

0:33

world and your business, be sure to check

0:35

out NPR's Planet Money wherever you get your

0:38

podcasts. Now, onto our show.

0:41

The way MacGyver came to be is kind

0:44

of an unusual story. I

0:47

was actually hired to write a pilot

0:50

with a different concept. The

0:52

studio said, we're

0:54

so excited about this because it's never been done

0:56

before. And I went, well,

0:58

that's great. What is it? That's

1:02

Lee Zlotov. He's a

1:04

writer, producer, and director. And he

1:06

created one of my all-time favorite

1:08

TV characters, MacGyver. The

1:10

secret agent, famed for being able to

1:12

improvise his way out of any jam

1:14

with just his trusty Swiss Army knife

1:17

and the judicious application of duct

1:19

tape. However, the exciting

1:21

idea for a show that the studio wanted to

1:23

lead a work on was a long way from

1:26

the MacGyver we know and love. They

1:29

shared the concept with me and I said, you know,

1:31

there's a reason this has never been done before. And

1:34

they said, what's that? I said, I don't think it's going to work.

1:37

Like his creation, Lee has a can-do

1:39

approach to creative problem solving. So he

1:41

didn't leave his response to the studio's

1:43

idea for a TV series at a

1:46

simple no. Now,

1:49

nobody likes to be told their baby's ugly.

1:51

So I explained to them why it wasn't

1:53

going to work. I

1:55

said I could write that as a pilot, but you

1:57

really want me to write something that will sustain us.

2:00

series, correct? They

2:02

went, yeah. I was

2:04

then tasked with trying to

2:06

come up with sort of single

2:09

action adventure hero series. The

2:13

tables were turned and now it was Lee

2:15

pitching the studio. I

2:17

went through a number of iterations which I

2:19

took to the network, none of which they

2:22

liked. They

2:24

said, no, no, no, no, you got to fix it now.

2:27

And so I was becoming a little

2:29

desperate. Faced with

2:32

this constant string of rejections, Lee felt like

2:34

he was in a no-win situation. With

2:37

his back against the wall, he quickly came

2:39

up with a way forward. I

2:42

gathered all my writer friends in a room,

2:45

locked the door, provided

2:48

them with every conceivable inebriated name

2:50

I'd want and basically said, we're

2:52

not leaving this room till I

2:54

have a great idea for

2:57

this TV series. It was clear

2:59

to the increasingly inebriated writers that

3:01

Lee wouldn't be taking no for

3:03

an answer. They got

3:05

pulled. So they said,

3:07

well, what do you got? So I told them

3:09

I've got nothing. And

3:13

there was a long pause. Then

3:15

one of my writer friends said, okay, let's go

3:17

with that. I said,

3:20

let's go with what? They

3:22

said, let's go with nothing.

3:25

I said, what are you talking about? And

3:28

he said, well, think about it. James

3:32

Bond, you know, he gets all those gadgets

3:34

from Q and Indiana Jones. He's got the

3:36

hat and the whip. What if

3:38

your guy had absolutely

3:40

nothing? And

3:45

there was another long pause and I thought, my

3:48

God, that's it. We

3:51

use writing team quickly began to build on

3:53

this creative leap in the nothingness. We

3:57

send this guy into these

3:59

missions. and these adventures and he

4:01

got absolutely nothing and he's got to

4:03

make it up as he goes along. I

4:06

decided to give MacGyver a Swiss army knife

4:08

and the rest is

4:10

pretty much history. MacGyver,

4:15

the hero known for his

4:17

neck, creates something out of

4:20

nothing, truly personified the entrepreneurial

4:22

spirit. When the studio

4:24

rejected proposal after proposal, it

4:26

fueled Lee's creative fire. This

4:29

saga of MacGyver's creation bears a

4:31

vital lesson for entrepreneurs, the

4:34

necessity to thrive amidst rejection

4:36

and frequent knows. In

4:39

the entrepreneurial journey, facing rejection is

4:41

not just a possibility but a

4:44

certainty. However, if the

4:46

ability to receive these rejections is

4:48

not a necessity but a stepping

4:50

stone, that supports the most successful

4:52

entrepreneurs. Each

4:55

know offers a unique opportunity

4:57

to refine an idea, sharpen

4:59

a pitch, and foster resilience.

5:01

It can even be a sign that your

5:04

idea is so contrarian that it could be

5:06

truly transformative. It's

5:09

a theory we've explored before on this show

5:11

and it's time to revisit why I believe

5:13

if you're hearing a chorus of no's, it

5:15

may actually be a good sign. So

5:18

don't be discouraged by rejection. Instead, learn

5:20

to hear the nuance between the different

5:22

kinds of no's. This

5:49

is MacGyver's Game. We'll

6:03

start the show in a moment afterward

6:05

from our premier brand partner, Capital One

6:07

Business. I

6:11

raised my hand to say like I wouldn't do something which

6:13

is like dramatically different from what I've

6:15

done ever before. I think

6:17

a lot of people around me were very surprised

6:19

that I made that decision. That's

6:22

Aparna Sarin, Chief Marketing Officer for Capital

6:24

One Business. When we heard

6:26

from her last year, she was working the

6:28

product side, leading a team to create a

6:30

credit card with no preset spending limit. But

6:32

now she suddenly found herself running marketing. Who

6:35

am I to call myself a CMO? I

6:38

was skittish about people calling me

6:40

Chief Marketing Officer because

6:42

I've never done marketing before. I have been

6:45

a credit leader, I've launched

6:47

products, but I've never done marketing. And

6:49

so that actually adds even more to

6:52

that imposter in your head. Why

6:54

did Aparna make such a radical pivot in

6:56

her career and how would she handle the

6:58

steep learning curve? We'll find out later in

7:01

the show. It's all part of the Refocus

7:03

Playbook, a special series where Capital One Business

7:05

highlights stories of business owners and leaders using

7:07

one of Reed's theories of entrepreneurship. Today's

7:09

playbook insight, have a beginner's mindset.

7:17

I'm Reed Hoffman, Co-founder of LinkedIn, partner

7:19

at Greylock, and your host. And

7:22

I want to revisit my theory that if

7:24

you're hearing a chorus of no's, it may

7:26

actually be a good sign. We

7:29

first explored this theory in an early

7:31

episode of Masters of Scale featuring Kristin

7:33

Walker, the founder and CEO of Walker

7:35

& Co., the trailblazing health and beauty

7:37

firm behind the Bevel Razor brand. In

7:41

2018, Walker & Co. was bought by

7:43

Procter & Gamble and Tristan became PNG's

7:45

first black CEO of a subsidiary. If

7:48

you don't recall that episode featuring Tristan,

7:50

then maybe this will jog your memory.

7:56

But here's the response Tristan initially received when

7:58

pitching his idea for the Bevel for Bevel,

8:00

a razor blade tailored to coarse facial

8:02

hair. I don't know,

8:05

it's niche. I don't think

8:07

it's scalable. It's a terrible idea for me to

8:09

kind of jump into the Bevel thing because it

8:11

was a consumer group who didn't want it, an

8:13

industry that is dominated by the multi-blade use case

8:15

with billions and billions and billions of dollars to

8:18

attack you with patent protection, et cetera, and

8:20

to do it in Silicon Valley. That's

8:23

crazy. Since then,

8:25

I've spoken to many other scale leaders

8:27

for master's scale with their own tales

8:30

of weathering the chorus of no's, their

8:32

own strategies for dealing with rejection, and

8:34

their own perspectives on how encountering the

8:37

chorus of no's was a vital part

8:39

of their scale journeys. In

8:41

this episode, we'll be hearing from some of those

8:43

founders. We'll also be revisiting

8:46

some more moments from Tristan's episode. After

8:49

listening, you'll no longer be discouraged by

8:51

rejection, and you'll have a clear understanding

8:53

of the nuance between the different kinds

8:55

of no, every founder and leader, can

8:58

expect to encounter. First,

9:00

here's some of the thoughts I

9:02

expressed on that early episode about

9:04

rejection and weathering the storm of

9:06

no's. The lesson for

9:08

entrepreneurs goes deeper than the pat advice that you

9:11

shouldn't take no for an answer. You

9:13

should expect to take no for an answer. If

9:16

you're laughed out of the room, it might

9:18

actually be a good sign. The

9:23

first truth of entrepreneurship and investing is

9:25

that the very big ideas are

9:27

contrarian, because the contrarian is part of

9:29

the reason why a bunch of large

9:31

companies and competitors haven't already done it,

9:33

why a bunch of other entrepreneurs haven't

9:35

already succeeded at it. And

9:38

so that leaves the space for

9:40

the creation of something. And to create

9:42

something big, you have to have that initial space. For

9:44

example, in the early stages of Google, it

9:47

was search is a terrible way of

9:49

making money in advertising, because advertising is time on

9:51

site. And what does search do? It

9:53

shuffles you off the site as fast as you can

9:56

go. That's not a good

9:58

business model. So like an Airbnb, it's like. like, oh,

10:01

someone's going to rent a couch or

10:03

room from someone else? Who

10:05

are the freaks on both sides of that transaction?

10:08

So all of these things have a similar quality. Very

10:11

smart people will tell you there's no there

10:13

there. So you have to gird yourself for

10:15

a string of rejections. Some entrepreneurs

10:17

simply develop thick skin. Others

10:19

treat it like a normal part of their workday.

10:21

You know, wake up, brush your teeth, listen to

10:24

people crush your dreams. It's a living. This

10:26

is why you need to cultivate a more

10:28

positive mindset when dealing with that chorus of

10:31

no's. This is exactly

10:33

what Abby Farlec, founder and CEO

10:35

of Global Citizen Year, did. Her

10:37

not-for-profit sent students abroad for a

10:39

year of international service between high

10:41

school and college. Back in

10:44

2008, she was struggling to get funding, and

10:46

she turned to a leadership coach for advice.

10:49

We asked her to share that advice. The

10:52

no's are actually a gift. You

10:54

heard that right, a gift. And

10:57

he said, between now and when we talk two

10:59

weeks from now, I want you

11:02

to go out into the world and gather

11:04

as many no's as you possibly

11:06

can. It is your homework to

11:09

be rejected over and over and over and over

11:11

and come back and report on it. And it

11:13

ended up being the most important thing I could

11:15

have ever done and the most important advice I

11:17

could have been given at that point. The

11:19

most successful entrepreneurs listen closely to the

11:22

no's. They mine their rejections for clues.

11:24

I have been turned down 148 times. That's

11:27

Catherine Minchu, co-founder and CEO of The

11:29

Muse, a career development website that she

11:32

pitched to investors 148 times. Not

11:36

that she was counting. There were literally

11:38

days where I had a no over breakfast,

11:40

a no over at 1030 AM coffee. No.

11:46

A no over lunch, you know, disinterested 2

11:48

PM, somebody who left a meeting early at

11:51

4. And

11:54

then I would go to drinks and feel like I was being

11:56

laughed out of the mirror. When We

11:58

finally raised. I

12:00

did Round I went back

12:02

and counted. It

12:04

would both. Painful. And gratifying of the same

12:07

time. looking at all those names and again

12:09

I remember that Know, I remember that, know,

12:11

I remember that Know and they stink. Every

12:13

one thing to. Say

12:17

the new serves users in the millions.

12:19

So few years of course of knows he should

12:22

look for other signs are drawn to something. I.

12:24

Believe that the best ideas often

12:26

appear laughable at first glance. If.

12:29

You're really lucky. your idea was so

12:31

laughable that it gets his own Nick

12:33

Me. It was

12:35

thought of as the dumbest idea

12:38

in Hollywood. Like.

12:40

Stay away from Brian Grazer. He's

12:42

got that mermaid idea. That.

12:47

Brian Grazer, one of the

12:49

most successful Hollywood producers ever,

12:51

and cofounder of Imagine Entertainment

12:53

alongside same director Ron Howard.

12:55

Brian has produced a staggering

12:57

number of hit movies and

12:59

Tv shows including Apollo, Thirteen,

13:01

Frost, Nixon, Friday Night Lights,

13:03

and Twenty Four. and his

13:05

first big hit was that

13:07

mermaid idea that are No

13:09

was a splash. As

13:11

the producer it was Brian's dropped a

13:13

gone pit spots to studios all over

13:16

Hollywood. I. Would tell

13:18

everybody it wasn't just a mermaid

13:20

idea was a love story and

13:22

love story. There's universality to them.

13:25

But. After hundreds and hundreds of knows,

13:27

I got one person to say yes,

13:30

and that was somebody at the Walt

13:32

Disney Company at the time. As

13:34

we know, Splash was a huge

13:37

hit, helping propel Tom Hanks a

13:39

mega star status and getting imagine

13:41

recognized as an exciting new force

13:43

and film. The course of

13:45

knows that Brian Hundred is an echo

13:47

of what most entrepreneurs have to endure.

13:50

It also gave him an important insight and

13:52

getting as projects made. The.

13:54

dumbest idea in hollywood known by

13:56

all got made and turned out

13:58

to be a critical darling and

14:00

I got nominated for an Oscar

14:02

and I thought, wow, that means

14:04

nobody knows anything. Whether

14:06

it's a movie story or

14:09

a tech story or a consumer

14:11

story. The parallel with the

14:13

tech industry is just how do you get

14:15

something that's contrarian but right. And frequently what

14:18

I say that in the venture industry is

14:20

your ideal investment is something that seems crazy

14:22

right now and totally obvious two to three

14:24

years from now. Was

14:26

LinkedIn just a natural like you thought that's

14:29

going to grow and scale. No,

14:31

a lot of people thought it was it was

14:33

bozoville both smart people and

14:36

unexperienced people thought that LinkedIn was

14:38

crazy. The smart people thought hey,

14:40

it's a network product and you're going to have

14:42

no value proposition till a lot of people are

14:44

in it so no one's going to join because

14:47

first person second person third person all no

14:49

value proposition. And then the

14:51

less experienced people were just like, well, who wants

14:53

to do professional networking? Like why would that be

14:55

something? I mean, it's, you know, people only want

14:57

to go meet, you know, Bill Gates or someone

14:59

else. Basically, you don't

15:02

know what you're doing. You're jumping off a cliff

15:04

without a plane without a parachute. It's going to

15:06

be ugly. Your vision

15:08

may seem obvious to you, but there could

15:10

be any number of reasons why others haven't

15:12

seen it. And in getting

15:15

people to come along. The first step

15:17

is to understand why they're unable to

15:19

see what you see. Katya

15:21

Beecham introduced a new business model

15:23

that flipped the beauty industry and

15:25

influenced a slew of other industries.

15:29

Her company Birchbox sends out a monthly

15:31

box of beauty product samples to its

15:33

subscribers. Customers can then

15:35

buy full size versions of the

15:37

samples and many other beauty products

15:39

through Birchbox's online store. Katya's

15:42

vision for how this new business

15:44

model could transform the entire beauty

15:46

industry seemed obvious to her. But

15:51

when Katya and her co-founder, Haley Barna, came

15:53

up with the idea in late 2009, they

15:55

struggled to get anyone else to share that

15:58

vision. First, Katya

16:00

and Haley went to their business school teachers with

16:02

the idea. And they were like,

16:05

aww, you know, that's

16:08

a bad idea. And

16:11

started pitching brands. And

16:15

similarly, brands were kind of like, you're

16:20

so naive. So

16:24

they took their pitch to a group of people they

16:26

thought would get their vision, angel

16:28

investors. It was so disheartening.

16:30

I mean, everybody took

16:32

the meeting. Most people

16:34

weren't listening. The ones who were just

16:37

started thinking about how they

16:39

would do it. Does it need a box? Do

16:42

you need to like send it together? Can

16:44

you send one at a time every week?

16:46

My wife doesn't use beauty products. Like what

16:48

about her? This is

16:51

where it's important to know not just what your

16:53

vision is, but who you are pitching to and

16:55

how you can help them to see it. We

16:58

thought this is legit, but we couldn't get

17:00

anybody to really take the leap. Everybody

17:03

was looking for somebody else to validate

17:05

it first. The idea

17:07

wasn't hard to understand. However, this was

17:09

2010. People

17:11

were not used to having multiple monthly subscriptions.

17:14

Just one or two subscriptions felt like a

17:16

real commitment. On top of

17:18

this was the fear of the untested. Katya

17:21

and Haley just couldn't get these investors

17:24

to share their sense of surprise and

17:26

delight at having a curated box of

17:28

samples arrive at their houses each month.

17:30

But to them, it was so obvious. So

17:33

they needed to find another angle to describe

17:35

it. So when you did

17:37

the pitches to these early investors and the

17:39

investors said no, what was your conclusion from

17:42

those no's? What learnings did you take away?

17:44

What did you think? It was

17:46

a range from too bad for you.

17:49

You're going to miss something huge and

17:51

a little bit more self-actualized

17:53

realization of I think I need

17:55

to consider how to say it

17:57

differently because I don't. question

18:00

the idea, but maybe the message isn't right.

18:02

Maybe I'm not framing it right. Note

18:05

how Katya was unwavering in the faith

18:07

in her idea. She could have

18:09

put the refusals down to a lack of vision

18:11

on the part of investors. And this is a valid

18:14

approach. Up to a point. What

18:16

is so smart about Katya's approach here is

18:18

how she imagines herself as the investor. Because

18:21

she's not only imagining what they're looking for in a

18:23

company or a founder. She's also

18:26

imagining how their preconceptions and

18:28

prejudices shaped their judgment. She

18:30

had to make her vision seem obvious to

18:32

them. We shifted a lot

18:35

more to the TAM, you know, total addressable

18:37

market and beauty. The fact that it was

18:39

under penetrated on the internet. And

18:41

just tried to start speaking

18:43

the language of irrefutably something

18:46

is going to happen here because 2% penetration

18:49

on the internet for beauty in

18:51

2010 is definitely not going to

18:53

be where it sticks. This

18:56

approach got VCs on board and

18:58

solved Katya's funding problem. Once

19:00

the Birchbox model caught on, it rapidly

19:02

spread through the beauty industry and beyond

19:04

and created a whole new approach to

19:06

sales. Now you

19:08

can get sample boxes for anything

19:10

from pet treats to underwear. Sometimes

19:14

you need to finesse your pitch

19:16

like Katya did. But sometimes you

19:18

just need sheer persistence. That's

19:20

what John Foley, co-founder and former CEO

19:23

of Peloton discovered when he first started

19:25

pitching his idea to investors. I

19:28

don't know, Reed. I don't know what I could

19:30

have done differently. I think I'm a pretty good

19:32

salesman. I believe so passionately in what we're doing

19:34

and I still do. And I was explaining it

19:37

as best I could. I

19:42

had a 10 out of 10 business on a

19:44

silver platter going to strategic,

19:46

going to angels, going to venture

19:48

capitalists. John envisioned

19:50

a connected stationary bike that would deliver

19:52

live classes to the home. He

19:56

thought he would cruise to an easy victory with his

19:58

10 out of 10 idea. But

20:01

it turned into an epic

20:03

uphill climb. Your

20:07

I was. I have fifteen years

20:09

of tech leadership experience and I was

20:12

sure the venture capitalists we're going to

20:14

throw money at me because because it

20:16

was such a good idea and I

20:19

was an experience guy and what was

20:21

your experience like as I was

20:23

clearly the dramatic build up for the

20:25

but instead but instead three years later

20:28

after pitching hundreds of venture capitalist and

20:30

thousands of angels I hadn't raised a

20:32

dime of money from of institution. Sam's.

20:37

A telethon know all about tough climbs,

20:39

but this was a hill so steep

20:42

John couldn't see the top. Every

20:44

investor was a skeptic and they

20:46

all had different ways to say

20:49

know. There

20:51

were ten or twelve buckets

20:54

of knows he was my

20:56

age. We. Have

21:00

for the V C didn't like hardware at all. Fitness

21:05

was a dopey category plagued

21:08

by bad teams and

21:10

bad products and bad marketing

21:12

and gimmicks and sad. A

21:18

lot of people in the valley didn't understand Boutique

21:20

Fitness. Oh,

21:23

you're a New York City company. I've made

21:25

a commitment to my family's I'm always sit

21:27

on boards in California. Know

21:31

investors wanted to look at the thing they wanted

21:33

nothing to do with it. John.

21:37

Took hundreds of knows from venture

21:39

capital firms, thousands from angel investors

21:41

as he tried to fund his

21:43

time out of ten. Idea. The.

21:46

prototype was still in it's early

21:48

phase the network of users not

21:50

yet built so john could get

21:52

asked the thunder to hop on

21:54

a pellet on and take a

21:56

spin he had to convert skeptics

21:58

on the power of story and

22:00

vision alone. He described a

22:02

network of home writers, thousands per

22:04

class, peddling away at the same

22:06

time to the same live instructor

22:08

and a gamified leaderboard system. And

22:11

the best part was, no one

22:13

else was doing it. John leaned

22:15

into that pitch, and one by one,

22:17

he wanted a few early believers, angel

22:20

investors, going in for blocks of $25,000 or $50,000 at

22:24

a time. Those investors included

22:26

John's brother-in-law, his co-founders, and

22:28

John himself. Every

22:30

check mattered. Each one strengthened his

22:32

resolve and built Peloton some runway

22:34

to prove their case. Three

22:37

years later, I had 100 checks

22:40

from 100 angels that amounted

22:43

to roughly $10 million, and

22:45

that's how we capitalized the first three years of Peloton. After

22:48

a thousand pitches, John had gotten really

22:50

good at painting his vision. What

22:53

was missing was a way to be more

22:55

selective in his targets. Some

22:57

skeptics will simply never be moved. Others

23:00

will only be moved when they see the

23:02

data. So, discerning which are

23:04

movable becomes its own invaluable skill.

23:07

How do you do this? Just by

23:10

asking, what does this person value

23:12

above all else? And am

23:14

I offering something that speaks to that

23:16

value? When you pitch

23:19

a mainstream investor, they value a sure thing.

23:21

They want you to look like every other deal

23:23

they've seen succeed. When you

23:26

pitch an eccentric VC, and of course,

23:28

I consider myself one, they

23:30

value ideas that are contrarian, the

23:32

ones that don't look like every other

23:34

deal. John and his

23:37

team ultimately converted skeptical doubters

23:39

into die-hard believers and

23:41

then rode their enthusiasm all the way over the

23:43

hill. After the

23:45

break, we'll hear how to tell

23:47

a truly bad idea from a

23:49

bad sounding idea, how to deal

23:52

with insurmountable no's from unexpected corners,

23:54

and the importance of saying no

23:56

yourself. We'll be back in

23:58

a moment after a word from our... Premier Brand

24:00

Partner, Capital One Business. It

24:04

has something to do with the seven year itch

24:07

movie. Once every seven years,

24:09

I push myself to get massively

24:11

out of my comfort zone. We're

24:13

back with Aparna Saran of Capital One Business.

24:16

Seven years into her career, she left India

24:18

for the US. Seven years

24:21

later, she changed employers. Now she was getting

24:23

that seven year itch again, and she wanted

24:25

to broaden her skillset. So she pushed herself

24:27

into a field that she had no experience

24:29

in, marketing. I

24:31

was like, okay, I want to do something that I've never done

24:33

before. I knew that I

24:36

will be the least smartest person

24:38

in the room for a long,

24:40

long time. But Aparna

24:42

knew that if she approached her new position with

24:44

a beginner's mindset, she might be able to

24:46

get some much needed guidance. So she

24:48

started asking questions. How

24:51

are different industries evolving

24:53

in this current world of marketing?

24:55

What are the challenges that marketers

24:57

are facing today? Where are

24:59

we today within our journey in our business? What

25:02

is the customer expectation? And

25:05

finally, what is needed to get there? I

25:08

was asking the same questions again and

25:10

again and apologizing for sounding like a

25:12

broken record. Having a beginner's

25:14

mindset also means admitting that you don't have all

25:16

the answers. The

25:18

thrill is not just in knowing the right

25:20

answer. The thrill is in

25:23

finding ways to get to the right

25:25

answer. Just being comfortable, first of all, with

25:27

having skeptics in the room. That

25:29

was really important. And then second was

25:32

get down to work. But

25:34

would Aparna's team accept her as a leader? We'll

25:37

find out later in the show. It's

25:39

all part of Capital One Business' Spotlight

25:41

on Business Leaders, following reads, refocus playbook.

25:49

We're back with a special remix episode

25:51

of Masters of Scale, revisiting my theory

25:53

that if you're hearing a chorus of

25:55

no's, it may actually be a good

25:58

sign. So how could you do that? How can

26:00

you tell a truly bad idea from a

26:02

bad sounding idea? How can

26:04

you be sure your ugly duckling could

26:06

become a swan? This is

26:09

the key. You have

26:11

to pay attention to the quality, not

26:13

the quantity of rejections. You want to

26:15

see at least a teeny minority investor

26:17

squirm. You don't have to get them

26:19

to a yes, but you should

26:21

detect some friction as they reason their way

26:24

to a no. I mean, a lot

26:26

of people say that they're trying to build the procter and gamble

26:28

for people of color. Let me talk about

26:30

this for a second, because it's really funny. Number one, I've

26:32

never said that. And then two, it's interesting. Like, I think

26:34

folks talk about it as if it's a niche kind of

26:36

thing, but people of color the majority of the world. So

26:38

if we're the procter and gamble for people of color, what

26:40

the hell is procter and gamble? That's

26:42

Tristan Walker, the founder and CEO of Walker &

26:44

Company. He re-engineered

26:46

the single blade razor, specifically

26:49

for coarse or curly hair. He

26:52

called it the bevel, and it became

26:54

the flagship product for Walker & Company, and

26:57

the first step in his grand plan. He

27:00

envisioned a health and beauty company on

27:02

par with global brands like Procter &

27:04

Gamble, a company that devoted

27:06

its attention to men and women of color.

27:09

It was blindingly obvious to him that

27:11

this company should exist. But

27:14

when you're pitching a room of mostly

27:16

white, mostly male investors, it

27:19

can be hard to convey the urgency

27:21

of this market oversight. So how did

27:23

the best and brightest VCs respond to

27:25

Tristan's idea? I

27:28

don't know, it's niche. I

27:30

don't think it's scalable. It's a terrible idea for

27:32

me to kind of jump into the bevel thing

27:34

because it was a consumer group who didn't want

27:36

it, an industry that is dominated by the multi-blade

27:39

use case with billions and billions and billions of

27:41

dollars to attack you with patent protection, et cetera.

27:44

And to do it in Silicon

27:46

Valley, right? That's crazy. Tristan

27:50

has a keen ear for this quality

27:52

in his conversations. He can pinpoint down

27:54

to the PowerPoint slide number the

27:57

moment his audience stops paying attention.

28:00

I had a slide in there, I think it was like

28:03

slide 14, where I talked about proactive, the acne system,

28:05

as like a kind of a good analogy

28:07

to what we're trying to do. You know, it's

28:10

the difference between kind of Gillette and Bevel as

28:12

like, nitrogen and proactive. It's a system that

28:14

solves a very important issue. And

28:16

this VC looked at me and I'll never

28:18

forget this, said, Tristan,

28:20

I'm not sure issues related to raise

28:23

a bump shaving irritation are as profound and

28:25

big an issue for people as acne. At

28:28

which point I said, you know, I kind of understand what you're saying,

28:31

but all you had to do is get on the phone with 10

28:33

black men and eight of them would have said this is a permanent

28:35

thing I have to deal with. All I had to do is get

28:37

on the phone with 10 white men and four of them would have

28:39

said the same thing. Could have done it for women too and you

28:41

would have got the same ratios. So it

28:43

wasn't that it was like a bad idea or not

28:45

as important, it was just that that person

28:47

was unwilling to acquire the context necessary to understand

28:49

what we're working on. That's just laziness. And at

28:51

that point, I can't fix that. So I just

28:53

got to move on until I find somebody who

28:55

understood it. Notice how quickly Tristan's

28:58

mind moves onto the next investor. When

29:00

the quality of the questions drops, he

29:03

knows mid pitch that the conversation's over.

29:05

The rest is noise. Those

29:07

half-hearted questions are like the elevator music of

29:10

the pitch process. It's meant

29:12

to pacify entrepreneurs. In fact,

29:14

it grates at them. It

29:16

also wastes their time. Tristan

29:18

will tell you he prefers a hard no to

29:20

a comforting maybe. I mean,

29:23

Silicon Valley investors will tell you all the

29:25

time, we want to invest in people who

29:27

can execute with some symbols of pedigree, chasing

29:29

a significant white space and a big opportunity.

29:32

For us, it was like check, check, check, check.

29:34

And we heard 99% no's. Like

29:36

how much is this b***h, right? And you just

29:39

like trying to say something that I want to

29:41

hear as opposed to telling the truth. And

29:43

I wish that Silicon Valley would tell the truth a little bit more.

29:46

Tristan raises a really interesting question here. How

29:49

much of this investor hemming and hawing

29:51

as well? Bullsh**. So what's

29:53

really going through their heads? As

29:55

a partner of Raylock, I want to share

29:57

what happens after entrepreneur leaves the room. and

30:00

investors left them all over. Crazy idea.

30:04

It begins with a debrief of the

30:06

investors partners. If I'm presenting

30:08

an idea to my partners at Greylock, and they

30:10

all go, that's great, we should do that. I'm

30:13

like, shh. Here's a bunch of

30:15

hyper smart people and no one's saying, oh, watch out for this

30:17

or watch out for that. It's too easy.

30:20

The idea is so obviously good, I

30:22

can already hear the stampede of competitors

30:24

trampling over our hopeful little startup. On

30:27

the other hand, you don't want every person in the

30:30

room to say, Reed, you're out of your

30:32

mind. Because then you're wondering,

30:34

hmm, am I drinking the Kool-Aid in

30:36

a very bad way? What you want

30:38

is some people going, you guys are

30:40

out of your minds, and some people going,

30:42

I see it. You want a polarized reaction.

30:45

In fact, the one piece of advice I

30:47

give most often to early stage entrepreneurs is

30:50

to go out and ask the smartest people

30:52

you know, what's wrong with

30:54

my idea? Why won't it work? I

30:57

asked this question when I was first building

30:59

LinkedIn and my most trusted

31:01

advisors had the same answer. They

31:04

said the problem would be in getting the

31:06

network flywheel going. After all,

31:08

a professional network is only valuable if

31:10

other people are there to network with.

31:14

This response didn't make me say,

31:16

okay, nevermind. Instead, it

31:18

showed me what my number one obstacle was

31:21

going to be. Asking

31:23

smart people what's wrong with your idea is

31:25

the best deal on data you'll ever get.

31:28

But what happens when you gather

31:30

together thousands of smart people, give

31:33

them a lovingly crafted introduction to

31:35

your product, and then they all

31:37

yell no in unison? Alexa

31:39

Von Tobel, founder and managing partner

31:42

at Inspired Capital, experienced exactly this

31:44

when she was launching LearnVest. Founded

31:47

in 2008, LearnVest was a

31:49

proto-fintech platform that offered money

31:51

management resources from budgeting boot

31:53

camps to spending trackers to

31:55

consultations with human financial planners

31:58

when they were acquired by North... Western Mutual

32:00

in 2015, it was a clear sign

32:02

that the FinTech era had arrived. It

32:05

was September 2009 and LearnVest had been

32:08

invited to launch their closed beta at

32:10

the TechCrunch 50 conference. Alexa

32:12

can set the scene. They

32:15

fly you out, you get to get on stage, 3,000 people,

32:19

and by being selected, because you're one

32:21

of the best and biggest ideas. And

32:24

so you get to go on stage and present. I

32:29

was so nervous. I

32:31

emailed everyone I could think of to be

32:33

like, we're going to launch the business, come

32:35

watch it. It's going to be

32:37

live streamed. So all my family, all my friends are

32:39

watching from afar. I get on

32:41

stage and I start talking about how the future of the

32:44

wallet is going to come online. It's

32:46

going to be on your phone. You're going to

32:48

have access to advice. There's going to be gamification.

32:50

You're going to be able to, almost in a

32:52

way that doesn't feel like work, learn and interact

32:55

with your money. In

32:57

my head, I'm like, I'm going to win like an

32:59

award. The panel judges

33:02

read, we're like, this

33:04

is the worst idea I've ever heard.

33:10

They shredded it live

33:14

and basically said people

33:17

aren't going to trust bringing their money online. The

33:20

gamification just seems stupid. No one's going to be

33:22

interested. The primal brain in my head

33:24

was like, oh my God, this

33:27

is not how this is supposed to go.

33:30

Alexa had hoped for some constructive

33:32

advice or perhaps admiration and more

33:35

investment. Instead, the advice

33:37

she got was maybe don't bother.

33:40

Alexa defended her idea to the judges and

33:42

the assembled crowd. I just

33:44

sat there and was like, well, first of all, 80% of

33:47

the country lives paycheck to paycheck. Nobody

33:49

has money. Retirement, we're going to live it

33:51

the extra decade longer. It's

33:54

a massive problem for the country. We have to figure it out.

33:57

And I kind of just like went into all of the work. work

34:00

I had already done and spewed it out of

34:02

my brain and

34:04

ended up getting a standing ovation. People were clapping

34:06

which was great. I got off the stage, went

34:08

into a closet and went and started bawling.

34:14

Called my boyfriend who's now my husband Cliff and

34:17

I was like I don't know what just happened

34:19

but they hate the company. They hate the idea.

34:21

It wasn't tech crunch it was tech punch. Like

34:24

I literally got tech punched. Did

34:26

you notice the detail she shared about what

34:28

happened next. I kind

34:30

of just like went into all of

34:32

the work I had already done and ended up getting like

34:34

a standing ovation. The judges

34:37

didn't see LearnVest potential but

34:39

the audience did and when

34:41

LearnVest officially launched less than four months later

34:43

in January 2010 the site got

34:46

50,000 signups in the first month.

34:49

That was when I was like there is

34:51

something here people do want to learn

34:53

about this and then we raised lots of

34:55

money then life got easier. However

34:58

sometimes you'll face something more

35:00

implacable than a chorus of

35:02

no's. A seemingly impenetrable wall

35:05

of no's. Her

35:07

Royal Highness Princess Rima Bint Bandar

35:09

Al Saud faced just such an

35:11

obstacle. Princess Rima is

35:13

a member of the Saudi royal

35:15

family and Saudi Arabia's ambassador to

35:18

the United States but before

35:20

that she was a CEO an

35:22

entrepreneur and an advocate for women's

35:24

empowerment in Saudi Arabia. I grew

35:27

up in the States. I arrived in the States

35:29

I was seven years old and 30 with two

35:31

children when I went home and I recognized that

35:33

the experiences I had when I was younger weren't

35:36

available to my children. I fell

35:38

into the world of business because of the word no

35:41

and the no was women can't be

35:43

employed and I couldn't

35:45

understand that. I said what do you mean? And so

35:47

I had to sit and think and

35:49

recognize I'm a woman born of privilege, I'm

35:52

born into a royal family, I'm born into the

35:55

ruling family And I couldn't get a job.

35:57

So what is then the state of Women and every other

35:59

woman. And how many other women are

36:01

being told know that don't have opportunities but I

36:03

had an opportunity to make sense shift to make

36:05

that his it and try to use skills that

36:08

I had learned. To. Tell another story

36:10

and so I I tried to do that.

36:12

I was hired into the Ministry of Sports

36:14

and I was told that my mandate was

36:17

female inclusion and I said that's great, But

36:19

do you mean myself sitting in an office

36:21

and we pick a box? Or do you

36:23

mean that we actually have a mandate to

36:26

create change for female inclusion Ourselves Know it's

36:28

a mandate. Fabulous. The

36:30

only issue was there were so offices so I

36:33

actually worked from home for the first year I

36:35

would go to the ministry and there's no bathroom

36:37

so I was lucky that my home was five

36:39

minutes away. Still just not convenient. So we used

36:42

to put a sticker on one of the bathroom

36:44

doors was a little female sign and we'd come

36:46

back every day that we removed and then we

36:48

put it back and then. Not.

36:51

To be crass. but we put. Ladies.

36:53

Products in the bathroom and they never took

36:55

the sign off against. Like

36:57

are we got We got. You know that

36:59

you. Until

37:01

I was hired to push the envelope,

37:03

I was hired to make change. I

37:05

was hired to push back on either

37:07

the stereotype that we had for ourselves

37:10

of the limiting believe that we had

37:12

for ourselves or the the boundaries that

37:14

we were always told know because I

37:16

was told there is no no. We

37:18

took four women as wild cards to

37:20

the Olympics of my eye at that

37:23

time. New facilities for women and sports

37:25

so they actually ended up doing their

37:27

boot camp in my homes. They trained

37:29

in my home gym. They stayed in

37:31

my parents guest house because we just

37:33

needed to get it done. Get it

37:35

done before somebody says. Because

37:37

once. You break the ice and you take that first

37:40

step is what it is. It's precedents, And.

37:42

I will tell you that the women of my

37:44

country today. Our leaders their.

37:47

C E O's forty percent of

37:49

all small and medium sized businesses

37:51

are women today. Not a true

37:53

statement. five. Years ago, women are

37:55

in the military, women are in leadership.

37:57

Positions and government. We have deputy ministers,

38:00

and vice ministers. The

38:02

challenge for women in my country today

38:05

is no different than the challenge for women in your

38:07

country. And the limiting

38:09

belief that we hold ourselves to is

38:12

what will hold us back. Not

38:16

the limiting beliefs other people have. I

38:24

couldn't agree more with Princess Rima's strategy

38:26

here, when faced with a huge, all-barring

38:28

societal no, she looked for ways to

38:30

set a precedent that would lay the

38:33

basis for a huge scale change down

38:35

the line. Now I want

38:37

to take some time to consider how and when you

38:40

should say no. How do you

38:42

tell when your no is helping you avoid a

38:44

bullet and when it's dooming you to miss a

38:46

huge opportunity? This is something

38:48

I spoke about with model, producer,

38:50

and entrepreneur Tyra Banks. Part

38:53

of maintaining a firm handle on her

38:55

personal brand was learning when and why

38:57

to say no. Why?

39:00

For the same reason, it's important to say

39:02

no when making decisions for a corporate brand.

39:06

Because with focus comes clarity of purpose.

39:09

Try to be everything to everyone, you'll

39:11

end up standing for nothing. So

39:14

one of the things was time. There's

39:16

only so much time in a day to do

39:18

so many things. And then a lot of things

39:20

I said no to because of beliefs. Like

39:23

which beliefs? Like what mission and so

39:25

forth? Yeah, so it was offered millions of dollars

39:27

to wear furs. I'm not the person that's throwing paint

39:29

on people, but I just don't want to wear furs,

39:31

real fur. Millions of

39:33

dollars to sell alcohol. Always said

39:35

no to that. I did one

39:37

drink responsibly campaign, but I

39:39

was like it has to be a drink responsibly

39:41

campaign. My grandmother died of lung cancer when she

39:44

was 50 years old. So I said no cigarettes.

39:46

So those are my three main categories of

39:48

no. And also the three main categories

39:51

that paid you the highest. So

39:53

I always would say no. And my agents are

39:55

like, are you serious? Do you understand what you can

39:57

make in four days is what you can make in

39:59

four days. four years I'm like I know but

40:01

I just not going to do that but

40:04

through that there was just so many no's

40:06

I mean oh Lord read

40:08

there's so many that I look back on

40:10

and I feel like as

40:12

precious as I was about personal brand I think there

40:14

was a lot of protection there but I think there's

40:16

a lot of dumb no's what are

40:18

like one or two of those that you most regret one

40:21

of the top magazine companies they

40:23

came to me and wanted me

40:26

to do a magazine how

40:28

Oprah has her magazine how Martha Stewart has

40:30

magazines Rachel Ray has magazines and they wanted

40:32

me to do a magazine I

40:34

remember being that meeting with these 12 people

40:37

in this huge beautiful conference room

40:39

and me saying I don't have time for that

40:41

I'd have to look at every single page and

40:43

approve of myself and you know I'm hosting my

40:45

modeling show and I'm doing this I just don't

40:47

have time and I don't know I didn't

40:50

understand that true leaders they're

40:52

the visionary but they don't have

40:54

to do every damn page and do the typesetting and

40:56

the whole I mean I just felt like I needed

40:59

to be so close and I said

41:01

no to something that I think would have

41:03

been extremely beautiful powerful in the way that

41:05

I see power of giving knowledge and I

41:07

think that was a huge mistake of course

41:09

magazines are hurting right now today would have

41:11

been an online community but I

41:13

think that was a huge mistake we've

41:15

all had our share of dumb no's

41:18

and that's actually okay what

41:20

sets a great entrepreneur apart isn't a

41:22

perfect batting average far from it rather

41:25

it's the speed at which you learn from

41:27

your mistakes it's the infinite

41:30

learner mentality that allows for rapid recovery

41:32

after an error for

41:34

another case study in a know that felt

41:36

like it could have been a huge mistake

41:38

let's hear from Dropbox founder Drew Houston in

41:41

this story Dropbox had just started to

41:44

rapidly scale and was attracting attention from

41:46

the tech giants including Apple Steve Jobs

41:49

we got the invitation to see Steve and

41:52

I was not expecting that and

41:54

so I remember we get in our zip car and

41:56

I'm typing in

41:58

like one infinite loop getting Directions to

42:00

Apple Kansas. Somewhat upgrades. So

42:07

we get down there and I remember

42:09

you're under the sign him saying and

42:11

mean like when we say over here

42:13

we're here to see Steve. Mcclaren

42:16

okay seat and I'm like oh god

42:18

like maybe he hasn't seen the product.

42:20

so Ross lad this elaborate demo rituals

42:22

were furious with how to configure months

42:24

apart occurrence for me like set up

42:27

our computers for do all the and

42:29

conditions that makes a demo thing work

42:31

but we get up there and we

42:33

have a seat and then steve some

42:35

then and has a see any. Sort

42:37

of leans back and they

42:39

success massive pause These like

42:41

where to begin? You.

42:45

Guys have a great product and I'm

42:47

like under the table my guy Bucket

42:49

List: Steve Things of Rawlings rates and

42:52

then in so many words he's like

42:54

and you should really join us because

42:56

we're like a start up with infinite

42:59

resources and in a cursor his pitch

43:01

and before as as will be terrified.

43:03

I talked among my friends who had

43:05

had their Steve Encounters and they sell

43:08

squarely in the two Cats are six

43:10

yet like till Steve or Mom's com

43:12

mean Steve and the and never knows

43:14

when. You're gonna get and so he's

43:17

center says his bits of i Wish

43:19

to Join Apple and I'm like oh

43:21

by here up and like Steve I

43:23

really. Admire. Everything you've done and

43:25

like. If there's any way we can

43:27

find to work together, I totally would

43:29

love to, but weren't really enjoying building

43:32

this company. Talked among my friends who

43:34

had had their Steve Encounters and they

43:36

sell squarely in the two Cats. Yet

43:39

like till Steve or mom's com

43:41

mean steve and you never know

43:43

when you're going to get and

43:46

so he's center says his pitch

43:48

of i was enjoying apple and

43:50

I'm like oh by hurry up

43:52

and like Steve I really. Admire.

43:54

Everything you've done and like If there's any

43:56

way we could find no are together I

43:59

totally would. Love. The you but weren't

44:01

really enjoying building this company and we

44:03

want to keep going. I'm sure you

44:05

understand San I'd Enough is I said

44:07

throw and stuff her in else there

44:09

be an explosion or lightning bolts or

44:11

whatever them and what the have no

44:13

his sword trawling us a little the

44:15

his like you know okay he either

44:17

feature not a products and you knock

44:19

me we'll get distribution. the have to

44:21

pick partners and that's can be really

44:23

risky in our god we get our

44:25

own thing I guess rent a bill

44:27

that and kill you and that it

44:29

is. It. S. So my

44:31

two goals were like leaving and press

44:33

office. While.

44:42

Most founders would seek a

44:44

threat of extinction from Steve

44:46

Jobs as a show stopping

44:48

obstacle. Through. Took

44:50

it as a vote of confidence. Unfortunately,

44:52

que leaders of large companies

44:55

are visionaries. Some.

44:57

Are happy to ignore smaller companies

44:59

encroaching on their feals. And.

45:01

Co it's too late. Shelley.

45:03

Archambault, former Ceo of Metric Stream,

45:06

saw this first hand when

45:08

she joined Blockbuster to head up

45:10

it's online operations. At

45:12

the time. It was a giant

45:15

of movie rental. So. Here I am

45:17

at Blockbuster and my job is to build

45:19

blockbuster.com They had started to build web it

45:21

said or but we had to get a

45:23

web site launched. We had to figure out

45:26

what we're services gonna be. It was really

45:28

building a business and building a whole team.

45:30

So as I'm learning the industry I'm going

45:32

to conferences and I meet Reed Hastings. read

45:34

for the couple others. the started Netflix. at

45:36

that point it's pretty fledgling. Even

45:39

though it was early days and the

45:41

Netflix story so he could see the

45:43

huge potential. Unfortunately, her boss

45:45

could not. You know

45:47

we got to know each

45:49

other and Reed said, listen,

45:51

we talked about it read

45:54

came out to Blockbuster and

45:56

pissed. Let's take blockbuster.com the

45:58

brand's Let's take Netflix. That

46:00

knowledge? He put them together and

46:02

spit it out and have blockbuster.com

46:05

eight. And I'll never

46:07

forget my boss the Ceo with the

46:09

time a blockbuster. he just sat back

46:11

and said us. If

46:13

that ever becomes anything will just buy it.

46:16

Because. Block was a big business at

46:18

that time and I'm sitting there

46:20

thinking are you crazy and that's

46:22

what I knew that this was

46:25

this nut the place for me

46:27

to say they just didn't have

46:29

the vision and history is written

46:31

blockbusters long at a business and

46:33

Netflix is one of of top

46:35

brands in the in the world.

46:37

Blockbuster. Said no thanks

46:40

to Netflix for the wrong

46:42

reasons, but Drew said no

46:44

to Steve Jobs and his

46:46

passive aggressive offer for the

46:48

right ones. That

46:51

brings us to the end of

46:53

the special remix episode of Mass

46:55

was a scale. The nose have

46:57

been flying and us thick and

46:59

fast but so has the inspiration

47:01

for how to deal with all

47:03

manner of rejection. This isn't just

47:05

about resilience, it's about knowing how

47:07

and when to use a course

47:09

of note to catalyze innovation. pivot

47:11

strategically and through you determination to

47:13

succeed in the face of diversity.

47:18

I read Osman. Thanks. For listening.

47:24

And now a final word for

47:26

my premier brand partners Capital One

47:28

business. Me:

47:31

As displaced people, what is it that you want

47:34

or near? The first thing that they tell us

47:36

is that they really want to be working. We're.

47:38

Back one more time with Jocelyn. Wyatt of a

47:40

Light. She. Was telling us how they

47:43

hired refugees now known as customers to guide

47:45

others through the maze of services available to

47:47

them. A cuddle. I take that one step

47:50

further and help their customers co create their

47:52

future. Cookery Center

47:54

has really been at the heart of

47:56

what we've been doing a light for

47:58

about the last twelve. and

48:01

that has been really meaningful in terms of

48:03

people feeling like they can rebuild a life

48:05

in a much more permanent way. Then we're

48:08

scaling by bringing in additional

48:10

funding to help people start new

48:13

businesses or get jobs or find ways to

48:15

make money and support their families. By

48:18

taking a distributed leadership, bottom-up approach, a

48:20

light is creating a new model for

48:22

refugee response, says Lauren Tresco of Capital

48:25

One Business. A

48:27

light is changing the process of

48:29

humanitarian aid by engaging the people

48:31

they serve through co-creation. This,

48:34

in turn, empowers them to have an

48:36

active role in designing their future. Today,

48:39

a light's refocus is making

48:41

an impact beyond borders, and

48:43

their work has never been more timely, as

48:45

war, famine, and climate change displace more people

48:47

around the world. Capital One

48:49

Business is proud to support entrepreneurs and leaders

48:52

working to scale their impact, from Fortune 500s

48:54

to first-time business owners. For

48:57

more resources to help drive

48:59

your business forward, visit capitalone.com/Business

49:01

Hub. Again, that's

49:03

capitalone.com/Business Hub. As

49:06

with every ad on Masters of Scale, the entrepreneurs you

49:08

just heard from were real and unscripted. Because

49:11

Capital One is a financial institution, it's important

49:13

to them to be transparent about their relationship

49:15

with the entrepreneurs we interview. Some

49:18

of these entrepreneurs are Capital One customers, and

49:20

some aren't. Capital One did compensate

49:22

all of them for participating in this campaign.

49:48

Original music and sound design by

49:50

Eduardo Rivera, Ryan Holiday, Hayes Holiday,

49:52

and Nate Consella. Audio

49:54

editing by Keith J. Nelson, Steven

49:56

Davies, Steven Wells, and Andrew Knott.

50:00

Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastinelli

50:02

and Brian Pugh. Our

50:04

CEO and Chairman of the Board, Jeff Berman. Master

50:07

the Scale was created by June Cohen

50:09

and Darren Trist. Special

50:12

thanks to Jodine Dorsay,

50:14

Alfonso Bravo, Kim Cronin,

50:16

Erica Flynn, Sarah Tarter,

50:18

Kitty Blasey, Marielle Perrecker,

50:20

Junime Ezequena, Colin Howard,

50:23

Brendan Klein, Semyo Puta, Kelsey

50:26

Cezon, Louisa Velais, Nikki

50:28

Williams, and Justin Winslow. Visit

50:31

mastersofscale.com to find the transcript

50:33

from this episode and to subscribe to

50:35

our email newsletter. Chet

50:39

TPT, I produce a podcast called Masters of Scale, and

50:50

I'm looking for a way to get

50:52

listeners to leave us a five-star

50:55

review on Apple Podcast.