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Forward/masters of A I. I.

0:56

First discovered done the dragons when I

0:59

was mine. The

1:01

baby sitter that my father was

1:03

hiring, Michael, his technique for dealing

1:06

with difficult to manage young boys

1:08

was introduced to the Dungeons and

1:10

Dragons. My dad caught on pretty

1:12

quickly. This was a hit because

1:14

I started campaigning for him to

1:17

go out more. But what what

1:19

could do? The Dutch? The Dragons.

1:21

They. Might have

1:23

thought it was very strange. like oh my

1:25

God. I've lost my kid to this role

1:27

playing game called. I.

1:30

Was obsessed with this role playing

1:32

game Room Quest. I've

1:35

started introducing it to a variety

1:37

of my classmates. One of the

1:39

people said why Lived down the

1:42

street from the Game Company. I'm

1:46

like What? Research:

1:49

Since I'm a neighbor I can gonna go by.

1:51

I could bring with me like this please? They.

1:58

rented a house that's where the It was

2:01

a little inset from the street and it was called the

2:03

Long Path Through Grass. It

2:05

was up a staircase to the big

2:08

dining room. There's

2:10

these Tolkien-esque miniature figures,

2:13

stacks of the books and game systems. There

2:16

was Steve Perron, who was the editor-in-chief there.

2:19

And he's like, oh my God, who let

2:21

the 12-year-old in? And

2:26

I started saying, oh, I'm a big fan. I'd like to

2:28

play games here. I happen to

2:30

have bought one of their new scenario

2:32

packs. And

2:35

I looked at it and said, oh, this is really incompetently done. This

2:38

is just bad math. This character design is

2:40

wrong. This would be more interesting if it

2:43

had this twist. I

2:45

marked it up in kind of classic red ink. It was

2:47

bleeding. And said, you

2:49

just published this and there's a bunch wrong with it. I wanted you

2:51

to see it. I could

2:54

see him rolling his eyes. Like, oh, God,

2:56

kid's wasting my time. And

2:59

then he started relooking it and went, oh. Huh,

3:02

I got another thing you could look at. Would you like

3:04

to look at another thing? And I'm sure. And

3:08

so he gave me the next thing he was working on. I

3:11

went home and then brought it back

3:13

to completely revised. And

3:16

he said, oh, this is real work. And so he gave

3:18

me a check. I

3:20

brought the check home. My dad was

3:22

like, oh, oh, OK. This isn't such a

3:25

bad thing after all. That's

3:31

the story of how I fell in love

3:33

with games. As you heard,

3:35

I didn't just play games. I

3:38

dissected what worked, what didn't, and

3:40

what lessons I could glean about

3:42

human nature and strategic thinking. Throughout

3:45

my life, games have been one of

3:47

the biggest influences on me as a

3:49

business leader. And that's why I believe

3:51

that some of those vital and overlooked

3:54

entrepreneurial resources might just be

3:56

stored away in your family's games cupboard.

3:59

Ready to play. Let's go. We'll

4:33

start the show in a moment. After

4:42

a word from our premiere brand partner, Capital

4:44

One Business. I

4:48

raised my hand to say like, I wanna do something which

4:50

is like dramatically different from what I've

4:52

done ever before. I think

4:54

a lot of people around me were very surprised

4:56

that I made that decision. That's

4:59

Aparna Saran, Chief Marketing Officer for Capital

5:01

One Business. When we heard

5:03

from her last year, she was working the

5:05

product side, leading a team to create a

5:07

credit card with no preset spending limit. But

5:09

now she suddenly found herself running marketing. Who

5:12

am I to call myself a CMO? I

5:15

was skittish about people calling me

5:17

Chief Marketing Officer because

5:19

I've never done marketing before. I have been

5:21

a credit leader, I've

5:23

launched products, but I've never done marketing.

5:26

And so that actually adds even more

5:28

to that imposter in your head. Why

5:31

did Aparna make such a radical pivot in

5:33

her career and how would she handle the

5:35

steep learning curve? We'll find out later in

5:38

the show. It's all part of the Refocus

5:40

Playbook, a special series where Capital One Business

5:42

highlights stories of business owners and leaders using

5:44

one of Reed's theories of entrepreneurship. Today's playbook

5:46

insight, have a beginner's mindset. I'm

5:54

Reed Hoffman, co-founder of LinkedIn, partner at

5:56

Greylock, and your host. And

5:59

I believe that you can do it. that some of those vital

6:01

and overlooked entrepreneurial resources might just

6:03

be stored away in your family's

6:05

games covered. I

6:08

think that games hold a deeper power

6:10

than many realize. They're

6:12

far more than an amusing pastime or

6:14

something to do on a rainy day.

6:17

They have real value in developing a

6:19

whole host of core business skills. Strategic

6:23

thinking, tactical pivots, teamwork,

6:25

resource management, and reading

6:27

human nature are just

6:29

a few examples. Today,

6:32

we'll explore a few well-known games

6:34

and the critical entrepreneurial lessons that

6:37

they contain. Maybe

6:39

games aren't your thing, or maybe they

6:41

are, but you just don't have time

6:43

to learn a new set of rules.

6:46

In either case, don't worry. I'm going

6:48

to distill some of the most impactful

6:50

insights I've gleaned from my many hours

6:52

of gameplay. And if you're

6:54

inspired to try out any of these games, well,

6:56

that's a happy bonus. So

6:59

let's dive into the first game and what

7:01

it can teach us about entrepreneurship. Number

7:12

one, Monopoly. Born

7:16

in the 1930s, Monopoly mirrors

7:18

the sweet, sweet fever dream

7:20

of Rockefeller capitalism. Players

7:22

buy and trade real estate in

7:24

the hopes of total market domination.

7:27

As the game develops, your strategy

7:29

must shift from aggressive tactics like

7:32

accumulating properties to defensive tactics, like

7:34

building up assets in the form

7:36

of houses and hotels, eventually

7:39

forcing less affluent players

7:41

into bankruptcy. Tough

7:43

luck, Charlie! So

7:46

one of the things you frequently learn in playing a

7:48

game is all games have a

7:52

somewhat fluid and changing structure. Monopoly

7:55

is a good example that a lot of people are

7:57

familiar with. Like, first

7:59

buy all the products. but then what you're trying to do is

8:02

trade out and aggregate the places where

8:04

you can get higher

8:06

predictive rents than other folks

8:08

in order to be able to be leveraging that.

8:10

And that's more of a mid-game strategy leading into

8:12

an end-game strategy. So it's the phase nature of

8:14

the game, which is, you know,

8:17

parallel to some entrepreneurship. So what

8:19

will happen with many, especially

8:21

technological entrepreneurial journeys, is

8:23

you get to different levels of scale, the

8:26

game structure changes. So like

8:28

it may be initially you're linked in, it's

8:30

like get some good press. People

8:32

say, okay, this is a reliable site. The

8:35

journalists have checked it out, said it's kind of

8:37

useful. Okay, I'm going to potentially invest

8:39

in it more, invite some people, write a

8:42

profile, play with it, but then, okay, what is

8:44

the first million people to the first 10 million

8:46

to the first 100 million? You know,

8:48

the game changes as you're kind of going through it. Now

8:51

sometimes it's not just through your levels of scale.

8:54

Sometimes it's a competitor comes in and you're

8:58

now competing for the same round. Well, now your

9:00

game needs to change because you have a competitor.

9:03

And there's various ways that you might play with

9:05

this competitor. So for example, at PayPal, x.com

9:08

was copying our go-to-market strategy. And

9:10

it was like, well, it's more

9:12

effective to merge with x.com than

9:15

it is to compete with them. That changes

9:17

the game now. And what got us here into

9:20

this growing payment service now to get to the

9:22

next level, we have a new theory for how

9:24

to do that. 95%

9:26

of the time, the game

9:28

will end up changing in different

9:31

circumstances. You have to adjust to that

9:33

game change. And that's part of

9:35

what then gets cashed out in that aphorism.

9:38

What got you here won't get you there. Be

9:41

paying attention to how the game is

9:43

changing relative to your goals and

9:46

path and strategy, whether it's a

9:48

scale rule, a fatigue in

9:50

a market rule, a competition

9:52

rule, like a set of different things,

9:54

which then change it up. 2.

10:02

Settlers of Catan Welcome

10:06

to the uninhabited island of

10:09

Catan. Here, players

10:11

embody the role of early settlers,

10:14

building vital infrastructure while trading

10:16

resources like wood, bricks, sheep,

10:18

and ore. The

10:20

more you play, strategies begin to

10:22

reveal themselves. Maybe you

10:24

have an idea about diversifying resources

10:27

or claiming a certain geographical position

10:29

on the board. In

10:31

a game as intricately strategic

10:33

as Catan, the ability to

10:35

communicate various tactics and philosophies

10:37

calls for an astute learner.

10:45

People say chess is

10:48

the king of games. Well,

10:50

chess has a bunch of problems with it

10:52

relative to parallels to the real world. The

10:55

bad thing is it's epistemologically shared,

10:57

which is we both see the

10:59

same board. It has no randomness.

11:02

And actually, in fact, these might say, well, the world's not

11:04

random. It's like, well, the world's

11:06

complex enough that the complexity mirrors

11:08

randomness, like different startup competitors, different

11:11

things that might be happening on

11:13

the market. It's like you just

11:15

can't predict all that stuff. So

11:18

these are parts of the reasons why

11:20

I'm such a public advocate of games

11:22

like Settlers of Catan as

11:24

a good kind of model for

11:27

learning business, learning entrepreneurship, because it has

11:29

the randomness, it has the interactions with

11:31

other players, has the competitive

11:33

gameplay with other players as part of it.

11:36

One thing that I've highly prioritized

11:38

in putting your teams and people

11:40

invest in is what I call

11:42

explicit learners. Not

11:45

only people who keep learning, infinite learners,

11:47

but explicit learners, because they learn things

11:49

that they can share with

11:51

their fellow team members. Being

11:55

an explicit learner allows you

11:58

to crystallize

12:00

your learnings into language that

12:03

you can then discourse with other people around you.

12:07

It's similar to when people say, hey, when I

12:09

teach it, I learn it better. It's a similar

12:11

version to the explicit learner, which is by

12:13

going through language and kind of

12:15

crystallizing components of what you're learning,

12:18

that helps you solidify them, build upon them,

12:20

think about it more crisply so it does

12:22

help you as an individual. But

12:25

of course it's also essential for teamwork.

12:30

Now when you get to settlers,

12:32

obviously you have called the canonical thing as

12:34

four people competing with each other, and you say,

12:37

well, how does explicit learning help here? Well,

12:40

generally speaking, you're playing with your friends and

12:43

you're trying to influence the other

12:45

players to play more with

12:47

you and more against the other people. One

12:51

of the ways to do that is to

12:53

share series of the game in frameworks

12:56

that are lessons. Like, well, oh look, that person

12:58

has a two for one port and two for

13:00

one ports really accelerate. So like

13:02

they may get ahead and we may never be

13:05

able to catch them. So it's like you're using

13:07

the explicit learning of the patterns of the game

13:09

to influence the

13:11

negotiation for why that person

13:13

should trade with you and not the other

13:16

person, you know, etc, etc. Now,

13:19

personally, one of the things I find troubling and amusing

13:21

is everyone goes, oh, Reed's really good at settlers and

13:24

guitar, so when I start playing it, everyone's like, we

13:26

all got to play against Reed right now, even at

13:28

the very beginning of the game, like, wait, that's

13:31

not fair. Let's see who gets ahead first.

13:38

Number three, poker. And

13:43

smoke-filled casinos around the world,

13:46

gamblers hunch over a stained

13:48

green table, drawing cards

13:50

and wagering on who among them

13:52

holds the best hand. Again,

13:56

synonymous with a strategy known

13:59

as bluffing. A

14:02

bluff is when you bet or raise, knowing

14:04

full well that you don't have the

14:06

best hand. You hoe-butters

14:08

are fooled by your confidence and decide

14:10

to throw in the tie. Once

14:13

the moment of truth arrives and the cards

14:15

spin out across the table, your

14:18

bluff is revealed in all

14:20

its glory. Congratulations, you've

14:22

maintained the veil of

14:24

an impenetrable poker face.

14:30

Poker has a valuable,

14:33

simple stream of thinking about competition,

14:35

probability, risk-based bets that change your

14:37

set of actions based on how

14:39

you think is going on. There

14:42

is no competitive game that doesn't involve

14:44

some deception. The

14:46

same thing is broadly true in business too,

14:49

because like which product am I going

14:51

to launch? Which partnership am I

14:53

going to use to do that? What

14:55

do I think is the right way to compete with

14:57

my product and your product in the next generation of

14:59

products? If you know what

15:01

I'm doing and I tell you exactly what

15:03

I'm doing, then you can

15:05

compete against me. You can market

15:07

against me, you can build the same product, you can potentially

15:10

build a better product. And so

15:12

all of that are forms of deception,

15:14

information gaps, epistemological gaps in order

15:16

for it to work. As

15:19

an example, when

15:21

we were deploying PayPal on eBay

15:24

and competing with eBay's

15:26

subsidiary Billpoint, we

15:29

would take some things that were true and

15:32

really emphasize it in our public statements like, oh, it

15:34

must be easier to sign up for. Totally

15:37

true. And we said that's the reason why we're succeeding.

15:39

We said, why is it you're growing so much faster

15:41

than Billpoint? But part of the

15:43

reason why we would beat the drum so loudly on that

15:45

and focus on that is that one

15:47

of the things that Billpoint and eBay hadn't

15:49

realized is that the payments platform was

15:52

actually email. So what we

15:54

would do is we would seek

15:56

to get the email to saying

15:58

pay with PayPal. to the

16:01

winner of the auction

16:03

before the eBay auction

16:06

notice would show up saying,

16:08

you've won this auction for this item on eBay.

16:10

And by doing that, of course, people will do

16:12

the one that comes in. It's like, oh, email

16:15

came in from PayPal. Sure, great.

16:18

Now, we would never say anything about

16:20

that because they could make

16:22

the auction stuff work in a way that they

16:25

could get the notice out first, if they were

16:27

to try, but they didn't realize that was the

16:29

battle. Now,

16:31

obviously, not all the exceptions go. It's like, well,

16:34

I'm hiding the fact that I'm doing really bad things

16:36

to my customers, or I'm hiding the fact that I'm

16:38

breaking law, you know, like Theranos. They may help me

16:40

win right now because they're like, oh, look, I have

16:42

this wonderful blood test. That really,

16:44

really works. And it doesn't work at all.

16:47

That form of deception is, you

16:49

know, not only illegal, but

16:52

immoral and destructive. Should

16:54

everyone go become an expert in poker, which

16:56

takes a huge amount of time? That's just

16:58

absolutely not. But should people understand what

17:01

that lesson is that's generalizable to all the other games?

17:03

The answer is yes. That

17:05

kind of thing is very useful. I think that's not to be poker,

17:08

but like which games, given

17:11

that framework of setting up

17:13

something where you could succeed

17:15

or fail based within the constraints

17:17

of what's happening, then games

17:20

knowledge is useful. After

17:27

the break, we'll explore even more popular

17:29

games and what critical entrepreneurial lessons we

17:31

can uncover. So stick around.

17:35

We'll be back in a moment after a

17:37

word from our premier brand partner, Capital One

17:39

Business. It

17:42

has something to do with the seven-year itch movie. Once

17:45

every seven years, I push myself

17:48

to get massively out of my comfort zone.

17:51

We're back with a Parnasaran of Capital One Business.

17:54

Seven years into her career, she left India

17:56

for the U.S. Seven years

17:58

later, she changed employers. Now. She was

18:00

getting that seven year itch again and she

18:02

wanted to broaden her skillset so she pushed

18:05

herself into a field she had no experience

18:07

in. Marketing. I.

18:09

Was like okay, what to do something. That I've never

18:11

done before. I. Knew that I

18:13

will be the least smartest person

18:15

in the room for a long,

18:17

long time. But. Apart a

18:20

new that of she approached her new position

18:22

with a beginner's mindset. She might be able

18:24

to get some much needed guidance so she

18:26

started asking questions. How

18:28

are different industries evolving in this

18:30

current world of marketing? What are

18:33

the challenges that marketers are facing?

18:35

today? it's Were V today with

18:37

an Argentinian. Our business. Was.

18:40

A Customer expectations. And.

18:42

Finally what is needed to get this.

18:45

Seven asking the same questions again and

18:47

again and apologizing for sounding like a

18:49

broken record. Having a beginner's

18:51

mindset also means admitting that you don't have

18:53

all the answers. The. Thrill

18:56

is not just knowing the right answer

18:58

that Thrill is and finding ways to

19:00

get to the right answer. It has

19:02

been comfortable for us to fall with

19:04

having skeptics in the room. That.

19:06

Was really important and then second

19:09

was get down to work. But.

19:12

Would have harnessed team except her as a leader.

19:14

Will. Find out later in the show

19:16

Support of Capital On Businesses Spotlight

19:18

on Business Leaders Following reads: Refocus

19:21

Playbook. Before.

19:27

The Break: We dissect the vital

19:29

entrepreneurial lessons with him. monopoly settles

19:31

at a time, and poker. I'm.

19:34

Eager to keep the game that rolling. So.

19:36

Here's the next game will explore. Number

19:40

for. You'll

19:42

miss said you choose to accept. To.

19:47

One of the most popular party

19:49

was the last decade. The Spark

19:51

scams a list of words for

19:53

the team to identify the spymaster,

19:56

then offers them a series of

19:58

lung word clues been. To

20:00

avoid linguistic land mines and

20:02

shoots the opposing teams com.

20:06

While the game function

20:08

simply a demands conflict

20:10

strategies around communication, risk

20:12

taking and channeling an

20:14

external respect. My

20:17

own better faster, Rate

20:20

it off. Organizations.

20:26

Place simple games best on once you

20:28

get to twenty people that to be

20:30

will honor be bought thousand people. The

20:32

game has have a much simpler structure

20:35

for them to all coordinate and playing

20:37

the game together. One. Of the

20:39

things that I. Tend. To do

20:41

like when I'm hoping. Portfolio.

20:43

Company Ceos. I don't tend to

20:45

give them fifteen pieces of feedback

20:47

cassettes in pieces. The feedback tends

20:50

to mean love the difference in

20:52

the first piece of feedback and

20:54

atrocity back as they're still deserve

20:56

to be on the same list.

20:59

Usually. What I'm getting feedback I give

21:01

them like this is the thing that matters is

21:03

a sword a list as bottled. Do that and

21:05

then I'll get to the other hooks. In

21:08

Okc has. Generally speaking,

21:11

In. The Principles of Communication and Jeff

21:13

Winner mail said the some his

21:15

episode but it's like. You.

21:17

Have to keep saying the simple thing. And.

21:20

Only when you got so sick of

21:22

saying it. Or people starting

21:25

here. It. And porter how

21:27

you recruit and lead. Seems.

21:30

As understanding their world views. But.

21:34

One of injured how do the companies

21:36

are trying to get people have most

21:38

naturally aligned worlds is. Now

21:40

sometimes to get to the on the some

21:42

seem delving staff of Ra. You

21:45

might even start meetings with

21:48

my personal seconds like what's

21:50

a good person or when

21:52

from last week to can

21:54

build connectivity between people and

21:56

that's of course important and

21:59

organizations. Number.

22:04

Five. Gather.

22:07

Round for I'm to tell

22:09

you have a Mary Riddell

22:11

playing games but I mean

22:13

of Dungeons and Dragons? Player:

22:17

Has defended their own unique

22:19

characters and embark on a

22:22

fantastical damn. varied. As a

22:24

fan of rag tag adventurous,

22:27

a dungeon master or Dm

22:29

acts as a referee said

22:32

see storytelling guiding the route

22:34

so it's interactive. Just fix

22:36

this if us such own.

22:40

Accord Dm fosters a collaborative

22:42

and inclusive environment and showing

22:45

all of the characters from.

22:47

Barbarians avast are given a

22:49

moment a sort of feel

22:51

like era of our homes

22:54

store. I

23:00

basically played tennis role playing

23:02

game some aged nine to

23:05

about aids. Fourteen.

23:07

And I was the game master. I

23:09

was the person it was setting out.

23:11

The world are saying. Okay here's how

23:13

the adventures in Iran. Here's what the

23:15

set of characters are. Here's the non

23:17

player characters that you encounter peers are

23:20

they interact with you. And.

23:23

To. An illusion of and things I learned

23:25

and some of it is like hey we're

23:27

collaborating gather about how do we go see

23:29

the towns in the dragon and you know

23:31

the bandits, the orcs of the whatever else.

23:34

And part of what you learn to me

23:36

undies giving people the. I

23:38

was at that. My role in this really matters

23:40

like while at the Thief to and are out

23:42

there was or do that and let the fighter

23:45

do that. And and organizations

23:47

what? Here's questions person on what is

23:49

the thing they want to prove. Can

23:51

that be aligned with the okay? Ours

23:54

are. In the missing. Your.

23:56

Dividing up the roles in some

23:58

strengths in a really good try

24:00

the in really creative out of

24:02

a box thinking, the technical skills,

24:04

the marketing skills that I knew

24:06

kind of composing match for this

24:08

particular projects. The. Lot of

24:11

the Rpg games or accent that, playing

24:13

out a narrative is. What?

24:17

I learned was that a lot of people

24:19

wanted to be the hero their own story.

24:21

That that was a fundamental had a human

24:23

drive across almost everybody. And.

24:26

You want everybody? I'm a team to be here.

24:28

You know that I'm a hero. You guys are

24:31

all the minions. What

24:33

is each person bringing in

24:35

as their trunks and with.

24:39

Each have their own heroic journey

24:41

Stuff can be synergistic. How

24:45

does does the set of

24:47

different characters play together and

24:49

create an overall greater story?

25:04

To this day I find playing

25:06

games to be a great way

25:08

to communicate and connect. Board games

25:10

have become a meeting place for

25:12

my friends and I'd to discuss

25:15

everything from philosophy and politics to

25:17

business obstacles and personal goals. I

25:20

encourage you to blow the dust off

25:22

your own family games. Not only are

25:24

you likely to have fun, you might

25:26

just develop some useful skills along the

25:29

way. I'm

25:31

Reid Hoffman. Thanks for listening! And

25:40

now a final word for our

25:42

brand partner, Capital One Business. There's

25:46

a road some Tbilisi to

25:48

western Georgia. lines with women

25:51

have burns up and down their

25:53

arms and they're all making a

25:55

sin a mean it's honey raisin

25:57

bread they're all competing and they're

25:59

holding a piece of the bread and waving

26:01

it at you in the hopes that you'll stop

26:03

at their hut. We're

26:06

back one more time with restaurant owner Rose

26:08

Preffitt and those women who baked bread in

26:10

backyard ovens had given her an idea. I

26:13

really, really wanted to have a

26:15

fire outside, but

26:18

the health department shot me down hard. But

26:21

Rose had the fortitude to pursue her goal, and

26:24

that meant rethinking how she'd get there. What

26:26

if she opened a second restaurant, one

26:28

that could accommodate an indoor fire? I

26:31

walked into this 140-year-old warehouse. I

26:35

saw super high ceilings and this steam shaft that

26:37

was very rusted, but I had a feeling went

26:39

through the roof. I was like, I think I

26:41

can put the fire there. Maidan's

26:44

charred eggplant and scorched flatbread have won

26:46

the restaurant its first Michelin star. Rose

26:49

has since added a third restaurant and a

26:51

wine importing business to her portfolio, and

26:54

she wouldn't have been able to do it without

26:56

grit, says Lauren Trusco of Capital One Business. Rose's

26:59

story is such an inspiring example of how

27:01

important it is to have tenacity when it

27:03

comes to building a business. So

27:06

many elements need to align in order to

27:08

scale your company, and navigating that journey takes

27:10

fortitude. Capital

27:13

One Business is proud to support entrepreneurs and

27:15

leaders working to scale their impact, from

27:17

Fortune 500s to first-time business owners. For

27:20

more resources to help drive

27:22

your business forward, visit capitalone.com/BusinessHub.

27:25

Again, that's capitalone.com/BusinessHub.

27:29

As with every ad on Masters of Scale, the

27:31

entrepreneurs you just heard from were real and

27:33

unscripted. Because Capital One is

27:35

a financial institution, it's important to them to

27:37

be transparent about their relationship with the entrepreneurs

27:39

we interview. Some of these entrepreneurs

27:42

are Capital One customers, and some aren't. Capital

27:44

One did compensate all of them for participating in

27:47

this campaign. Masters

27:50

of Scale is a weight what original? Our

27:53

executive producer is Chris McLeod. Our

27:56

producers are Chris Gutti, Adam Skuse,

27:58

Alex Morris, Tucker Lewis, and Our editor at

28:00

large is Bob Safia. Our

28:03

music director is Ryan Holiday. Original music

28:05

and sound design by Eduardo Rivera, Ryan

28:09

Holiday, Hayes Holiday, and Nate Kinsella. Audio

28:12

editing by Keith J. Nelson,

28:15

Stephen Davies, Stephen Wells, and Andrew Knuth.

28:17

Mixing and mastering by Aaron Bastinelli and

28:19

Ryan Pugh. Our

28:22

CEO and Chairman of the Board is Jeff Berman. Master

28:25

the scale with the music and sound design. Master

28:29

the scale was created by June Cohen

28:31

and Darren Trist. Special

28:33

thanks to Jodine Dorsay, Alfonso

28:35

Bravo, Kim Cronin, Erica

28:37

Flynn, Sarah Tarter, Kitty Blasey,

28:40

Mario Carrecker, Junime Ezequena,

28:42

Colin Howard, Brendan

28:45

Klein, Semyo Puta, Kelsey

28:47

Saison, Luisa Vallez, Nikki

28:49

Williams, and Justin Winslow. Visit

28:52

masterscale.com to find the transcript for this

28:54

episode and to subscribe

28:56

to our email newsletter. Chet

29:07

TPT. I produce a podcast called Masters

29:09

of Scale, and I'm looking for a

29:11

way to get listeners to leave

29:14

us a five-star review on Apple

29:16

Podcasts. Do you

29:18

have any suggestions? Absolutely. One

29:22

effective way is to engage with your listeners

29:24

directly during your episodes. Remind

29:27

them how much a five-star review can

29:29

support your show.