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0:43

Mamma Mia Out Loud! Hello

0:47

and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud, what

0:49

women are actually talking about on Monday the 29th

0:51

of April. I'm

0:53

Holly Wainwright. I'm Mia Friedman. And I'm

0:55

Jesse Stevens. And on the show today,

0:58

more than 100,000 people marched

1:00

against male violence this weekend. And

1:02

today, one of them, who just so happens to

1:04

be our Prime Minister, is being called a liar.

1:07

So what happened at the Canberra march?

1:10

Also, Harry and Meghan have hired a

1:12

new spin doctor and given him one

1:14

big job, make everyone like

1:16

us again. So what's his

1:18

first move? And has

1:21

the announcement of a big book this weekend

1:23

shown that we're not as evolved as we

1:25

think we are when it comes to mental

1:27

health conversations? But first,

1:29

Jesse. In case you missed it,

1:31

daily showers are performative and they have no

1:33

real health benefit. Really? Yep. So

1:36

a new UK study has found that we're all showering

1:38

too much. We've come out of the UK. Sorry, Hal.

1:41

That's true. Well, apparently, people in the UK shower one

1:43

to two times a day, which is more than Americans.

1:45

How often do you shower? Twice a day. I

1:48

shower twice a day. Once a day.

1:50

Morning or evening? Morning, always. Okay,

1:52

I have thoughts on that. Apparently, Showering

1:55

too much is actually stripping away the skin's

1:57

microbiome, which is compromising the overall health of

1:59

our world. Body It is common

2:01

people in the Uk to sell once or

2:03

twice a day and an author of the

2:05

study says that change has come about largely

2:07

by accident. In the mid twentieth century it

2:09

became commonplace to have showers in the home

2:11

for the first time and so just because

2:13

of the A's showering a lot became a

2:15

normal thing to do. People became a site

2:18

of smelling bad, but it was never a

2:20

health thing. Health people never say Dna to

2:22

be showering once a day. What do you

2:24

mean health likes as in my him and

2:26

un like a gym. Seeing like if you

2:28

think that it's a hygiene thing. For

2:30

you to have to have a shower

2:33

every day x that saying this is

2:35

not a hygiene thing. They don't have

2:37

a consensus necessarily on how often we

2:39

should shower thought one chemist named David

2:41

which luck with so intent on preserving

2:44

his skin barrier that he didn't south

2:46

twelve years. Instead he sprayed himself with

2:48

a good bacteria that neutralize the bodies

2:50

that you know in the olden days

2:53

we know what you william those I'm

2:55

costume dramas of like Queen Elizabeth's Cool

2:57

and saw yes they would get licenses

2:59

that. Course it's at the beginning of winter

3:02

and not take them off again Until I

3:04

will say some sites like perfume kind of

3:06

became invented in those days cause a rich

3:08

fancy people just put loads of perfume on

3:10

to disguise how badly they smell so any

3:13

he wants any of just imagine what they'll

3:15

smelled like.say lazy go that a sigh lazy

3:17

gas just put and the thing it as

3:19

a path he my for a bad smell

3:22

we all know. Is that has

3:24

not seen it actually make the Were?

3:26

Yeah so it's performative. Yes to clean

3:28

yourself and it's perform. It is because

3:30

we had this phobia. Of

3:33

smelling like we haven't showered so sure

3:35

exercise or is that some of the

3:37

she sweats if you go to the

3:40

toilet if you have you periods. you

3:43

surely need some form of resource hungry

3:45

side hey well one expenses and environmentalist

3:47

to the environmentalists loves this study the

3:49

make good a good point and not

3:51

going to be my thoughts they say

3:54

they were rak in the sink and

3:56

they do a little things is upon

3:58

me why yes so what So

4:00

the cliche is, which is what Mia was alluding to

4:03

before, the cliche used to be that English people didn't

4:05

wash. And maybe it has something to do with those

4:07

Elizabethans we just talked about. It is

4:09

true that when I was a kid, we had a bath

4:11

once a week. Bath night. It

4:13

was important. Bath night. Mum

4:15

would come in the street and she'd be like, it's bath

4:17

night? No, the kids aren't going to that. But

4:20

in between, every day you had what

4:22

I learned to be called a pommy

4:24

wash, which is exactly that. You wet

4:26

a flannel, pits down there,

4:28

pits and bits. I've

4:30

got a friend who doesn't shower. Does she

4:32

pits and bits it? I don't know, but

4:34

it was a bit of

4:37

a theme at her 50th birthday party and

4:39

a lot of the speeches. And one time

4:41

she was in hotel quarantine. She

4:43

was quarantining with someone else in an adjacent

4:46

hotel room and they were

4:48

provided with towels, like bath towels.

4:51

And the bath towel at the end of the

4:53

two weeks was in the same place as it

4:55

was at the beginning, unused. No, no, no, no,

4:57

no, no. But showers just make you feel good.

4:59

I think it's a habit more than anything at

5:01

bookends a day. I like washing the day off.

5:03

The day feels dirty, it feels sticky and I

5:05

feel like washing the day on and washing the

5:07

day off. Yeah, before I get into bed, I

5:09

like to know I'm going to bed clean. Yes,

5:11

no, it wakes me up. No good. Can't

5:13

shower at night. Really? Showers wake me up. So if I

5:15

had a shower, I'd be awake. I want to be asleep.

5:20

Out loud as how often do you shower? Are you performative about

5:22

it? Do you make people watch? Do you

5:24

tell everybody what you're doing in there? We

5:27

need to have significant change when

5:30

a woman dies at the hands

5:32

of a partner or someone they know

5:34

every four days on average in Australia.

5:36

Then that day is a national crisis.

5:39

About 100,000 people marched

5:41

across Australia this weekend to raise their

5:43

voices that enough is enough when it

5:45

comes to male violence in Australia. As

5:48

we spoke about last Wednesday on Out Loud,

5:51

we've lost 32 women at the hands of

5:53

violent men this year. Over the weekend, it

5:55

seems we lost another, a young mother of

5:57

four in Western Australia. Women

5:59

are. And women are

6:01

mobilizing and every also discussed last week

6:03

were asking men to come with us.

6:06

The. Organizers of this weekend's marches are

6:08

an organization called what Were You Wearing

6:10

Their a non profit that supports survivors

6:13

of sexual assault and they made it

6:15

clear in all their social that men

6:17

will welcome at these marches one per

6:20

se put out ahead of time said

6:22

your presence is critical. We want and

6:24

need you to stand in solidarity alongside

6:26

us. And one man who committed to

6:29

march was the Prime Minister Anthony Albanese.

6:31

you might remember the last. Prime Minister

6:33

Scott Morrison got a lot of grief

6:36

for. Not coming out of Parliament house

6:38

to meet the women's marches during his

6:40

era I think he also said they

6:43

were lucky to much because been other

6:45

countries I'd be met with Bolland Cc

6:47

than one imagines that although was trying

6:50

to avoid such moments and today many

6:52

of the headlines about him because when

6:54

he stood up to speak at the

6:57

camera rally this is what he said

6:59

way we did describe. Myself entirety

7:01

and were told that that was

7:03

impossible. Net on aug make the

7:05

organisers road to do that. Agree

7:09

that way. To

7:13

demand by governments over levels

7:15

must do better including my

7:17

own, including every site in

7:20

American government. Now

7:24

what you can hear there is Sarah

7:26

Williams who is one of the key

7:28

organizes of the March. She was standing

7:30

next to Alba while he was speaking

7:32

and when he said himself and Kd

7:34

he is referring to Katie got her

7:36

to minister for women and he marched

7:38

with Katie and with several other female

7:40

ministers. Now the woman saying that's a

7:43

lie, that's a full out lie with

7:45

Williams. As he continued to speak have

7:47

to see said that. she started to

7:49

cry and several people rushed up to

7:51

the states to come from the crowd

7:53

is. pretty fair to say we're not very impressed

7:55

with our though as i doesn't never impressed with him

7:57

before he started talking to be honest After

8:00

the event, Williams released a statement and part

8:02

of what she said in there is that

8:04

the Prime Minister of Australia lied to his

8:06

country today, representatives from Galah and Albanese's office

8:08

both said this morning that they were sure

8:10

Katie would be happy to speak, not

8:13

the Prime Minister. Albanese's office made

8:15

it clear he was just walking and was

8:17

not interested in speaking. She went

8:19

on to say she thought that he then demanded to speak

8:21

because he was being heckled and that

8:23

he demonstrated what entitlement looks like when

8:26

he diminished her in front of a

8:28

crowd. Today

8:30

Albanese has been replying to these

8:33

allegations on several morning shows, discussing

8:35

his decision to convene a national

8:37

cabinet meeting on Wednesday to address

8:39

violence. In case you've deliberately

8:41

forgotten, national cabinet was invented during COVID and

8:43

its special meetings where you get all the

8:45

leaders of all the states and territories together

8:48

to talk about something specific. It

8:50

usually denotes something really important that needs

8:52

action and that's what he wants to

8:54

talk about. But several morning hosts asked

8:56

him if he was a liar, as

8:58

Sarah Williams had stated, and he

9:00

basically sidestepped it. You were called a

9:02

liar. How does that sit with you? I'm

9:05

focused on the issue, Carl. It

9:07

was an emotional day for people

9:10

and I get that. What

9:12

is an emotional

9:15

issue? Because women were saying

9:17

yesterday enough is enough.

9:19

So, oh, it's a mess. It is. Was

9:22

this an unfortunate misstep? It's also

9:24

a distraction. Yes, by a well-intentioned

9:26

man. Or was

9:28

it, as the organizers are suggesting, an

9:31

example of male arrogance, which is part of the

9:33

problem? I think it's a misunderstanding

9:37

and a misstep and doesn't sound good. I

9:39

have so much respect for this organizer

9:41

and what she has done. And also

9:44

as a victim herself, I think that

9:46

these events must be very, very confronting.

9:48

But I don't think it was necessarily

9:50

about a man with power trying to

9:52

diminish a vulnerable young woman. It

9:55

may have looked like that. The spectacle of it might have

9:57

looked like that. I think there was

9:59

a misunderstanding. I think that Anthony Albanese was

10:02

trying to do the right thing. I read what the

10:04

demands were for the protest and

10:06

it clearly stated number one, the number

10:08

one demand for the protest said, government

10:10

acknowledgement that this is a national emergency

10:13

and take immediate action. That

10:16

is what Anthony Albanese appeared to want

10:18

to do by standing there and saying,

10:20

we take this

10:22

seriously. He was trying to

10:24

appease the protesters, but I want to give

10:27

him more credit than that because even though

10:29

we are in a moment of crisis, his

10:32

government has done some really good stuff and I

10:34

hope that this crisis meeting means that they will

10:36

do more and more good stuff. At

10:38

the Sydney rally, Chris Minnes was called out

10:41

because he was there for a little bit

10:43

and then he left. He's the

10:45

premier of New South Wales. Yes, and he's the premier of New

10:47

South Wales. I just think- Did

10:50

it emerge today that his father had a massive heart attack and

10:52

was taken to hospital? Yeah. I

10:54

do think that it's a distraction. I think

10:57

that it can feel like there

10:59

is so much justifiable anger

11:01

and sometimes that anger can attach itself

11:04

to not quite the thing that we're

11:06

angry at. I've seen the word misogyny

11:08

thrown around a lot. I don't think

11:10

that either of those things are even

11:12

nearly an example of misogyny. Absolutely not.

11:14

But I also understand the general sense

11:16

of anger. Mia, is it impossible for

11:18

an elbow to get this

11:20

right? Because we discussed the

11:22

reaction to Scott Morrison refusing to talk

11:24

to protesters. Talking to a

11:27

crowd who's already quite primed to be mad with

11:29

you because they feel like you're not doing enough.

11:32

Was there a way in which he nailed

11:34

this, which he certainly didn't do, but what

11:36

do you think? To be honest, I think

11:38

there's no way for any man to get

11:40

it right at the moment, but by God,

11:42

I'm glad they're trying and I

11:44

don't want them to stop trying. When

11:47

you are the leader of the country or you

11:49

are in any position of power, you

11:53

are always going to be caught

11:55

between needing to be a leader

11:57

and speaking on behalf of the

11:59

country. or the state or whatever

12:01

organization or body that you represent, but

12:04

also not wanting to make

12:07

yourself the center of the story and also

12:11

by you saying

12:13

something, everyone's going to push against

12:15

you because you're the status quo, the embodiment of

12:17

the status quo which has so far failed women

12:19

because 32 of

12:22

us have been murdered so far this year, maybe 33. The

12:27

alternative is that he could have gone and

12:29

not spoken. That would have

12:31

been criticized. I'm not here to defend

12:33

him or anyone. I'm just

12:35

saying that I think you're

12:37

right about women that are furious at

12:39

the moment and our anger is

12:41

attaching itself to things

12:44

in ways that aren't necessarily fair, if

12:46

fair is even the right word, or

12:49

proportionate. I've spoken to people who are

12:51

like, I'm not going to the women's march because I

12:53

keep bloody marching and why aren't the men marching? Well,

12:55

there were two men who did march, two men who

12:57

did show up. I'm not blaming

13:00

anyone who's critical of them and I'm also not blaming

13:02

them for what they did. Don't you

13:04

think though, because we spoke on Wednesday about wanting

13:06

men to join this conversation and that is

13:08

certainly building in the groundswell that

13:11

I haven't really seen before, this thing of like,

13:13

come and talk, come and talk. But

13:16

I'm not seeing that among men? No,

13:18

no, from women to men. Oh, yeah. What

13:20

I'm saying in the groundswell that I haven't seen before

13:22

is this sort of, we need you to step up

13:25

for us, come and talk. But I

13:27

genuinely don't think they know what to do or

13:29

what to say. Well, and I think the imperfect thing

13:31

is that I wonder that I want men to talk

13:33

to men about fixing this problem. But

13:35

probably what Albo should have done when he

13:37

came to that march on the weekend is

13:40

walk and listen and not speak. Because

13:42

by coming up to the stage that had

13:44

until that point been populated by women, many

13:47

of whom were survivors themselves. He

13:49

was, as you just sort of said, Mia, and

13:51

I know that he may not have intended to,

13:54

but sort of inserting himself into this conversation, which

13:56

is what he's been asked to do. But

13:58

What? Maybe would be more helpful. Helpful. An important

14:00

at this point is walk, show you

14:02

support, have some mail ministers with you.

14:04

Don't just walk with the when but

14:06

bring that would wireless were reminded me

14:08

bring as many blacks as you can

14:10

rustle up on a Sunday and camera

14:12

and don't talk, just listen. And I

14:14

know that they would have been criticism

14:16

for that too. but it is probably

14:18

at this point a better idea because

14:21

then he gets to convey the national

14:23

capita on Wednesday and are not not

14:25

with pride. Have. The social

14:27

movements that get the most momentum are

14:29

the ones that have clear direct is

14:31

and clear points that they want to.

14:33

which as in we want the government

14:35

to do blah and this is what

14:37

would actually grace about this is that

14:39

it's one thing to say. Enough is

14:41

enough Only We've been talking about conversations

14:43

on and off and a lot of

14:45

experts coming with exactly as a great

14:47

article in The Guardian by Jess Hill

14:49

Here Exactly the things you need to

14:51

do this what we want. One expects

14:53

to be doing that, but when a

14:55

protest comes out. And says this is

14:57

about our government knowing that enough

14:59

has been enough and as I

15:01

said the government acknowledging that this

15:04

is a national emergency. I

15:06

don't think you can then have the government's

15:08

even the idea that Anthony Albanese would insert

15:10

himself he's a prime minister he is acknowledging

15:12

this is my responsibility. I'm a leader and

15:14

I'm going to stand here and he you

15:16

for it was so high risk from to

15:18

do it the A know even with my

15:21

p I had on I'm like even though

15:23

I'm saw in a giving elbow the benefit

15:25

of that he didn't wanna make that woman

15:27

cried and wanna do will die But the

15:29

problem was the cameras were on him and

15:31

his reaction was not great, not like a

15:33

glacial. expressions are not great. The body language.

15:35

Was not quite and it's made. it

15:37

will set him on. I just think

15:40

that's a very high degree of difficulty

15:42

and as me as already said a

15:44

distraction from what with over one and

15:46

I'm sure what he wants to which

15:48

is for this crisis to have some

15:50

direction towards resolution but he made it

15:52

worse. He says a state of state.

16:14

If you need of a distraction in the

16:16

news cycle, the Royals are having a jam

16:18

war. It's a lot like West Side Story

16:20

too. Expensive condiment. Eight

16:23

Jan. I love Jams. I donated

16:25

very often either Unscom, so when

16:27

I do breads award winning scans,

16:29

I've never wanted to hm more

16:31

than after researching this segment. Real

16:33

resurgence. the real push for Jan

16:35

back into the Zoc got which

16:37

I respect. I'm not a chance.

16:39

I I got like time in

16:41

a diner related Meghan and Harry.

16:43

Has appointed knee publicist Holly. As you mentioned

16:45

earlier, there's a lot of talk about that.

16:48

But first to Jam. Remember

16:50

she wakes go in. Meghan Markle announced that

16:52

she was starting a new business called American

16:54

Riviera or Chimp. I gotta look at that

16:57

and scam the time. I mean no, I

16:59

live and breathe The stuff I can never

17:01

remember what to type in. I must set

17:03

a lot of it was horrible. The lot

17:06

of for that reason the recall his Mozart.

17:08

Yeah, it's not catchy. Megan said that American

17:10

Riviera orchards when she noticed that a few

17:12

weeks ago it would be selling sunni traits

17:15

like jams and jellies. And side note, what

17:17

is a jelly? Can anyone? Hemingway's American? Damn.

17:19

About have you know they say but kinda

17:21

butter and jelly sandwich they mean a peanut

17:23

butter them as he has really made I

17:25

thought it might. You know how sometimes is

17:27

a cheese plate and there's something about it.

17:29

Also a jelly isn't that quints paste. Temporary

17:32

could also be clinched jelly

17:34

analyze. Well getting it like it's like

17:36

us. a message got as close as and

17:38

also. Lucky influences in

17:40

America. Received a basket of lemons for

17:42

Meghan and listed among the linens was

17:45

a first Run Limits as a decent

17:47

jobs drawbridge in greasy taken cristiana and

17:49

mean detailing which is some of the

17:51

Trident ones. and they all posted excitedly

17:53

about the jam on this socials. Cynical,

17:56

painful because I don't have those people.

17:58

it's jan Enter

18:01

Buckingham Palace. A few

18:03

days later, the official Buckingham Palace shop Instagram,

18:05

of which I was unaware until today, that

18:08

account posted about their own line

18:10

of royal jam, which they call

18:12

a luxury jam, and you can

18:14

buy it for around $10 a

18:16

jar, not including shipping. So,

18:19

I'm looking at blank faces. Do I want

18:21

Megan Jam or do I want Buckingham Palace

18:24

Jam? Well, apparently I read that Buckingham Palace

18:26

Jam has really seen a spike.

18:28

Because you can buy it and

18:30

you can't buy the other one yet. You can't buy

18:32

Megan Jam yet. Yeah, I know, but I just think

18:34

I would love, you know, or worse if you're listening.

18:37

Have we seen a spike? In jam. Yeah,

18:39

because it's just like I've not really thought

18:41

of so much about jam as I have

18:43

lately. Not since the dance-off that Britney Spears

18:45

and Justin Timberlake had on a nightclub dance

18:47

floor after their break-up, her two warring parties

18:50

found such a creative way to have public

18:52

beef. And I have to say I'm here

18:54

for it, although if you really want to

18:56

impress us, make your own version of Vegemite.

18:58

Oh, so true. Yesy. Oh,

19:01

it's the new publicist that they've hired. Interestingly, you

19:03

can pay based. I need to talk about the

19:06

jam first. You can. Well, before you go to

19:08

the publicist, I need to talk about the jam. Okay,

19:10

I have some questions. Firstly, so we send out

19:12

50 jars of jam. They're all numbered, by the

19:14

way. They're all numbered. Do you think in lists

19:17

of how much she thinks you're important? Definitely. Okay.

19:19

So, I also have a pro entry. Yeah. But

19:21

we've all got number one jam. So far, she

19:23

hasn't posted. I've been keeping an eye. Okay, this

19:25

is what I want to say. So, Megan posted

19:28

on how she made this really weird sandwich where

19:30

she put that and jam and then cheese and

19:32

then bacon. And then she fried the whole thing.

19:34

Oh, yeah. Just showed you that Americans do not

19:36

know what to do with jam. That's so true.

19:38

I'm going to clump it. So, Oprah hasn't

19:41

posted. Serena Williams, she definitely got jammed. She

19:43

hasn't posted it. Kamondalez, I reckon she got

19:45

some and I think Gweneth got some. Glorious

19:47

dynamite. Me

19:50

and I know Megan's friend list very

19:52

well. Intimately. And

19:54

she hasn't posted about the jam either. Among inspirational

19:56

quotes and changing the world for women. Okay, this

19:58

is my question. So someone from Suits,

20:01

I can't remember her name, she got a jam. She

20:03

posted like a carousel of pictures rolling

20:06

around on the grass with her jam.

20:09

And she's like, it's amazing. What, like in

20:11

the jam? Like, she's holding the jam, but

20:13

she's like rolling around with it. Still in

20:15

its jar. Yeah, with it. In its

20:17

jar, just being like, M's jam is just great. Do

20:20

you think she was paid? No,

20:23

none of them were paid. No, they're not sponsored posts.

20:25

No, they're trying to just get in with the good

20:27

stuff. Can we

20:29

get back to the spin doctor? Because I have

20:31

many things to tell you about this. His name's

20:34

Charlie Gibson. And interestingly, they've already got a US

20:36

publicity team, but he's going to be dealing with

20:38

all media inquiries from the UK and Europe, and

20:40

he's based in the UK. Why

20:42

is this interesting? They are laying

20:45

the groundwork for a return. I don't mean

20:47

the literal return. I think they're moving back

20:49

there. They're not doing that. I don't think

20:51

it's just launched a brand called American Riviera.

20:53

I'm not sure if it's that. And Harry's

20:55

just got his residency. So they're

20:57

not going to move back there, but

20:59

the UK is an exceptionally hostile market

21:01

for Megs and Harry, right? Their approval

21:03

ratings there are tiny. Everybody's very invested

21:06

in the War of the Brothers and

21:08

everything. Why do they need them though?

21:10

Can't they just chop the UK off?

21:12

Well, the problem is, you see, there's

21:14

an opportunity there, a growing opportunity, because

21:16

as we know, things ain't great in

21:18

the palace at the moment. Now, one

21:21

of the reasons why press

21:23

representatives have never been more important for

21:25

royals and slightly sort of royals, which

21:27

we call them the Aldi Royals. They're

21:29

like royal-ish, like the off-road wear. Yeah.

21:32

Is that they are really bad at PR. We

21:35

may have noticed that in this thing that we

21:37

do not speak of anymore, which was the Great

21:39

Wes Kate debate. It was

21:41

clear that that was handled terribly by

21:43

the highly paid experts at the palace.

21:45

And then just last week, we were

21:47

all in a mad flurry on Friday.

21:50

Hopefully most of you outliers are all

21:52

off living your lives. But

21:54

in the media, we got wind

21:56

that at 3am Australian time, there was going

21:58

to be a big press conference. from

22:00

the palace. Now as it

22:02

turned out it was an announcement that

22:05

the cast and Queen are coming back

22:07

to work and their first engagement is

22:09

going to be visiting a county factory.

22:12

That would have been great. Really good news

22:15

and also a very classy way to do

22:17

it. The first thing they're doing is related

22:19

to cancer. It's related to this ceremony. They're

22:21

going to thank all the people who've helped

22:24

and they're going to shine a light on

22:26

cancer services in the UK. It's exactly what

22:28

Royal should be doing. This is very

22:31

good Royal business. He's logging on to Instagram

22:33

to boost that ad about the Buckingham Palace

22:35

gym. Well perhaps. In

22:38

fact maybe they'll just swap some URLs around and

22:40

you know before you know it. Anyway the

22:43

thing is is that this is exactly what should

22:45

be happening. But in the gap in between the

22:47

media getting wind of that and the 3am press

22:49

conference obituaries were written.

22:51

Oh yeah that's standard media practice

22:53

anyway of course to have an

22:55

obituary ready to go. Every media

22:57

organisation. Everyone was planning their stories.

23:00

People were called off leave. Like it

23:02

was all happening. This is yet again

23:04

another example of how bad they are

23:06

at messaging right. I reckon

23:08

Harry and Megs are seeing that there's going

23:10

to be a bit of a void needed for people to

23:12

go and visit centres and raise awareness for important things and

23:15

all that. In the UK also

23:17

need that market to be softened up for the

23:19

jam and for whatever products follow it and for

23:21

Harry's next book and Megan's book and whatever happens.

23:24

And so they need to step into

23:26

that void. Now the guy they've hired

23:28

is interesting because he's got a lot

23:30

of experience. A lot of is with

23:32

commercial brands like Dog Food and

23:35

yeah like Domino's Pizza. So in

23:37

consumer items. So that's why it's

23:39

interesting. I mean that's what she's moving

23:41

into is selling products. Selling stuff. And

23:44

big brands too like Instagram, Samsung. He's worked

23:46

for all these people. And their UK

23:48

team was all fired when they left for

23:51

the US. And so the fact they're rebuilding

23:53

it is interesting. A lot of people have

23:55

left. But what's interesting, Jesse you

23:57

made the point why can't they just cut it?

24:00

off the UK and Europe. If

24:02

you're an e-commerce retailer, you can't afford

24:04

to cut off a market as big

24:06

as the UK and Europe because that's

24:09

huge. And this suggests that they are

24:11

really pivoting to product, right? Then obviously,

24:13

we've seen the Netflix deal. It

24:17

doesn't matter what you're pivoting to because even if it's

24:19

Netflix or Spotify, everything's global now.

24:21

If you have a brand, it has to

24:23

be able to live globally. And I read

24:25

on the weekend an analysis by a whole

24:28

lot of very experienced spin

24:30

doctors about what they would do if they

24:32

had been hired like this guy to help

24:35

rehabilitate Megan's brand image in the UK. And

24:38

they identified something that I think is

24:40

at the heart of where this problem

24:42

lies and why it's quite gritty is

24:44

that the way that you

24:46

market in the UK and in Australia,

24:49

self-deprecation, humor, don't

24:52

take yourself too seriously. But

24:54

the way you market in the US is

24:57

to take yourself very seriously. And that's

25:00

what they like because it's a lot

25:02

more earnest. It's less humorous. It's not

25:04

self-deprecating. They don't understand piss-taking in the

25:06

US. And if you go there, everyone

25:08

from Actors to Brands have discovered this. If

25:11

you go there and you use your typically

25:13

self-deprecating Aussie humor that works very well in

25:15

places like Canada and the UK, doesn't resonate

25:17

in the US. Well, Reverend Wilson said that

25:19

in her Jack Sheppard interview. She said that

25:22

was the number one piece of advice she got, that

25:24

if you're going to go to the US, then you've

25:26

got to back yourself and sit there and go, I'm

25:28

the female Jonah Hill. You can't kind of couch your

25:30

skills in. It's interesting because even

25:32

with Harry, when he first went to the

25:34

US, in Britain, he is a bit knockabout.

25:36

And he's like, I'm one of the

25:38

lads and I'm having a beer and we're having a laugh and

25:41

he will make these funny videos with the Queen and stuff back

25:43

in the day. And remember he went

25:45

on James Corden and he did all those things. But

25:47

I don't think the American market get that. It's like,

25:49

if you're royal and you want to sell us royal

25:51

stuff, then you have to be fancy. But

25:54

I also just think they don't want to

25:56

squander the UK, like enormous possibilities of that.

26:00

that came out that is confusing about what

26:02

they're doing. Like they're going on this tour

26:04

of Nigeria, which I don't understand. It's not

26:06

like we say, you know

26:08

what we're gonna do? We're gonna go on

26:10

a tour of Nigeria. Well, isn't it a

26:12

good thing? Isn't it a humanitarian? They wanna

26:14

make the world a better place? Yes, sorry,

26:16

that is true. And I'm being

26:18

cynical here, but all the sort of spin doctors said,

26:21

what does their brand stand for? They do a lot

26:23

of talking about what they wanna do, but

26:25

they haven't actually done it. Maybe that's why they're

26:27

going to Nigeria. So this week, you're gonna be

26:29

seeing Harry and Megs around a lot. You were

26:31

softened up a bit last week if you've got

26:34

your eye on the celebrity sites, because they went

26:36

to a polo match in the US and we've

26:38

got some public kissing. The Invictus Games coming up.

26:40

So this week, Harry is returning to Britain for

26:42

the first time since he made that dash to

26:45

see his dad when his dad first announced his

26:47

sickness, which if you believe the stories was a

26:49

quick 20 minute, very polite meet

26:51

and greet, and then he flew out again for

26:53

an Invictus Games event. And

26:56

then he and Megan are going to Nigeria,

26:59

something to do with the Invictus Games, but also

27:01

they know they've got a good connection in that

27:03

part of the world, and they're gonna go and

27:05

raise awareness of this and that. Now that is

27:07

a very royal thing to do. So

27:10

I think they're trying to walk this line

27:12

of being sort of royal. As I say,

27:14

a vacuum is opening there for the young

27:17

royals, and I think they wanna step into

27:19

that. The thing will be interesting

27:21

is that since obviously the excesses

27:23

of the Cape Mania and the media have

27:25

really backed off the royals rightly so, to

27:27

be very respectful to Kate, how

27:29

will they handle it when Harry comes in this week?

27:31

Because interestingly, he's changed his

27:33

strategy a little bit. He has been

27:35

suing every major UK newspaper. He's dropped

27:37

some of those cases. He was also

27:39

suing London police for not paying for

27:41

his protection. He's also dropped that case.

27:43

So it seems like he's kind of

27:46

softening, looking for a date

27:49

home. Softening the ground on Britain a little bit.

27:51

And I'm sure that he would probably love it

27:53

if he can pop round to Wilson Cates for tea

27:55

and have someone take a picture of that. But

27:58

unlikely to happen. But maybe our man. Mr

28:00

Gipson consoles that. If

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29:01

subscribe via the link in our show notes.

29:10

This week, a book by former Prime

29:12

Minister Scott Morrison called Plans for Your

29:14

Good, a Prime Minister's testimony of God's

29:17

faithfulness, will be published in Australia. It

29:20

is described as less political memoir

29:22

and more pastoral encouragement and Morrison's

29:24

aim in this book is

29:26

to encourage others to discover how they can access

29:28

and see the many blessings of God in their

29:30

own lives. This is very

29:32

unusual for a Prime Minister, this is

29:34

not the type of book they normally

29:36

write when they are no longer in

29:38

office. Now, last week Morrison was interviewed

29:40

by the Australian and he revealed that

29:42

while in office, he sought treatment for

29:44

debilitating and agonising anxiety. He

29:46

said that without medication, he would have

29:49

fallen into a serious depression. He

29:51

talked about the combination of physical

29:53

exhaustion with the unrelenting and callous

29:55

brutality of politics and media attacks.

29:58

He described it as Dread

30:00

the future and you can't get out of

30:02

bed. It can shut you down mentally and

30:04

physically. It robs you of your joy and

30:06

can damage relationships. I know this

30:08

from personal experience." At

30:10

the end of last week, Neil Mitchell wrote

30:13

an article for the age with the headline,

30:15

"'A Contact Called Me With News About The

30:17

PM. "'It Left Me With A Moral Dilemma.'"

30:20

This article was fascinating. He explained

30:22

that in October, 2021, he

30:24

was told by a source that Morrison

30:26

was experiencing significant mental health problems and

30:29

was in a bad way. Mitchell

30:31

writes that while mental health is a

30:33

private issue, whether a leader

30:35

is fit to lead is in the

30:38

national interest. He interviewed Morrison publicly

30:40

on radio, but then he also spoke to

30:42

him off the record and asked

30:44

him directly, "'Are you struggling

30:46

with your mental health? "'We could talk about it

30:48

sensitively. "'I've heard this from a source.'" Mitchell,

30:52

I believe rightly, chose not to publish what he

30:54

knew at the time. But

30:56

he asks, was that in Australia's interest? Do voters

30:58

have a right to know the mental and physical

31:00

health of their prime minister? And can we expect

31:02

a person in such a situation

31:05

to make a decision on their own ability

31:07

to function? Mia, what do

31:09

you reckon? I

31:11

thought this was such an interesting story. I

31:13

am about to name drop, but I've

31:16

interviewed on, I feel, first three former

31:18

prime ministers, and

31:20

I've asked all of them pretty directly

31:22

if they've seen a therapist when they

31:25

spoke about what they went through, mostly

31:27

around leadership changes. So that was Julia

31:29

Gillard, Kevin Rudd and Malcolm Turnbull. And

31:31

two of the three were currently prime

31:33

minister when you spoke to them? Were

31:36

they all prime ministers? No, I asked

31:38

each of them that question afterwards. After

31:40

they'd left the job, they spoke about

31:42

what it was like, the difficulties that

31:44

they experienced, in a way that was

31:46

obviously more candid than, you know, they've all

31:48

got game face on, as you would expect when

31:51

they're in the job. And

31:53

interestingly, Julia Gillard is now the head or

31:55

the chair of Beyond Blue, which

31:58

is a mental health organisation that... one of

32:00

the things she does. But Mark and

32:02

Turnbull and Kevin Rudd's answers were

32:05

similar and shocked me in that

32:07

they both said, they talked

32:09

about mental health issues at the time, but they

32:11

said if they'd have gone to

32:14

see a therapist, their political enemies would have

32:16

weaponized it. It would have been

32:18

paparazzi shots. They would have been made to be

32:20

not equipped to be leading the country. Just

32:23

a couple of quotes that Scott Morrison also gave

32:25

in his book. He said, I have no doubt

32:28

that the halls of parliament are filled with people

32:30

going through enormous mental anguish on a daily basis.

32:33

And that's not just the stuff they're dealing with in

32:35

their professional life, but the impact that has being away

32:37

from their family and all of this. It's not a

32:39

complaint. It's just true. And I think we've got to

32:41

sort of be transparent about that. Sharing

32:43

my stories intended to encourage others and normalize and

32:45

destigmatize what is very common for many Australians who

32:48

deal with it every day. Two things

32:50

that he said were interesting. The first is that

32:53

he was still able to function and get through

32:55

it. So you can experience depression

32:57

or anxiety and be high functioning. Not

32:59

everybody is. And not everybody is

33:01

all the time when they're experiencing it,

33:04

but it is possible. So just because

33:07

you're experiencing depression or anxiety doesn't necessarily

33:09

mean that you're not able to

33:11

continue with your job. And

33:14

then he also tried to say, my faith

33:16

family and the help I reached out for enabled

33:18

me to get on with the job. And he

33:20

sort of says, God really helped me. But

33:23

also medication helped him. And I think

33:25

it's important to note that family wasn't

33:28

enough. God wasn't enough. He needed medical

33:30

intervention. And I know

33:32

that when I experienced crippling anxiety and had

33:34

a bit of a breakdown and got

33:36

diagnosed, I didn't want to write about it at the

33:39

time because I was building a business. I

33:41

was worried that to my staff, I would

33:43

seem like I was not capable.

33:46

And to the industry when I was trying

33:48

to build a business with my husband, that

33:50

it would be seen that I was flaky.

33:52

Is that stigma? So I didn't write about

33:55

it for years afterwards. Is that stigma and

33:57

discrimination? Because I'm wondering if it would have

33:59

been weaponised. and it would have been politically damaging

34:01

for him to talk about it. He would have had

34:03

to step down. I don't think there's any question about

34:05

it. I think that if he'd have confirmed

34:08

the rumors that Neil Mitchell, let's face it, Neil

34:10

Mitchell wouldn't have been the only one, had

34:12

been handed about his mental health, he would have

34:15

had to step down. Because I

34:17

just don't think we're evolved enough for that. And I

34:19

think many people who, particularly anyone

34:21

who's watched Nemesis on the ABC, will chortle a

34:23

little at the idea of him having a little,

34:25

oh, I was gonna say something dismissive. I was

34:28

gonna say having a little whinge about the

34:30

callous brutality of politics, when he is known

34:32

to be one of the hard men. And

34:34

he has been involved in leadership stouches and

34:37

bullying of MPs and lots of things. And

34:39

he was very, very, even in that documentary,

34:41

he's very hard-lined. So the

34:43

thing is, is you've got a lot of people who are looking

34:46

for the cracks, which is exactly what Rudd said to you and

34:48

Turnbull said to you, Mia. And once

34:50

those cracks are apparent, you're marked and you're

34:52

going down. And I don't think

34:54

it's right necessarily that he would have had

34:56

to step down, but I think unquestionably he

34:58

would have to step down. And is that

35:00

a form of discrimination? This is what I'm

35:02

sort of interested in. No,

35:04

because I think sometimes your

35:07

mental health means that you

35:09

aren't capable of doing what you need to

35:11

do. Sometimes, but not always. In the

35:13

same way, there are a lot of people

35:15

who have chronic illnesses that they

35:18

live with that might impact how they do their

35:20

work, that might not. But Jesse,

35:22

what would we have done with that

35:24

information? Had he said, I'm struggling, I'm

35:26

having panic attacks, I'm on medication now,

35:28

I'm going through a difficult time. What,

35:31

as a society, are we meant to do with

35:33

that information? Whether it's the prime minister or

35:36

your boss at work or

35:38

indeed your employee, what are you meant

35:40

to do with that information? I think

35:42

it depends on why they tell you,

35:44

right? Like I understand and actually completely

35:46

respect Scott Morrison's decision. I really respect

35:48

Neil Mitchell for not revealing it when Scott

35:50

Morrison didn't want that to come out and

35:52

he denied it to him. But

35:55

I think what we're not meant to do is

35:57

then shout at them about what they

35:59

are. are not capable of because for

36:01

a lot of people mental health issues do

36:04

not incapacitate them and do not mean they

36:06

can't do their job. Winston Churchill famously was

36:09

a leader and some would say a very

36:11

good leader and he lived with depression. Don't

36:13

we have the right to privacy? I think

36:15

so and also when you look at Scott Morrison so

36:17

he would have been early 50s when this happened. The

36:20

highest rate of suicide in our society is men between the ages of

36:23

about 45 and 49. He is very close

36:25

to that. He is a demographic that

36:29

we ought to be worried about and

36:31

there are a lot of men, I was

36:33

reading this and thinking how many men in

36:35

Australia that fit that demographic

36:37

almost perfectly are in positions of

36:39

power and feel that they cannot

36:41

say anything because of what

36:43

they might lose. Whether they might

36:45

lose their job as the boss or anything

36:48

within their family, whether it's perceived or whether

36:50

it's real. I agree with everything you've said

36:52

there Jesse about him being representative of a

36:54

demographic who is really struggling with this issue.

36:56

But the problem is of saying all this

36:58

after the fact is that

37:01

towards the end of Scott Morrison's leadership, his

37:03

leadership was being called into question all the

37:05

time. And he behaved erratically. Remember when he

37:07

went on holiday during the bushfires. Now if

37:09

you put this into context with that you

37:11

might think the man really needed a holiday.

37:13

I only think this was around the time

37:15

he took everybody else's job secretly. He appointed

37:17

himself immediately. He did a lot of erratic

37:19

things. But at the time

37:21

he would not show it even a crack

37:24

of weakness or anything that looked anything other

37:26

than absolute resolve and conviction in what he

37:28

was doing. I don't hold a hose mate.

37:30

It was absolutely right for

37:32

him to take everybody's jobs because he knew better

37:34

than they did. And now after the fact we

37:37

know that he really was struggling and all

37:39

power to him. But at the same

37:41

time this is a prime ministership. This

37:43

is a very, very important job

37:45

leading us through one of the

37:47

most difficult and scary and risky

37:50

times that we've ever been through

37:52

if you combine COVID with environmental

37:54

catastrophe that was the bushfires. Never

37:57

showing a minutes weakness, he was very

38:00

much in the mold of an alpha

38:02

male, talk about his face,

38:04

yes, who will absolutely talk about his faith,

38:06

but he certainly was no advocate for mental

38:08

health. He certainly didn't have an enormous amount

38:10

of empathy for other groups who were struggling

38:12

outwardly at least. So it's kind

38:15

of hard to rewrite history in a way

38:17

that goes, if we'd

38:19

have known that he was dealing with all that,

38:21

we should have been sympathetic and

38:24

supportive. No, I don't think

38:26

that's necessarily the case. What I'm saying is

38:28

that if you have someone in, whether it's

38:30

a position of leadership or if someone is

38:32

paid to do a job and they're currently

38:34

not able to do that job, they're behaving

38:36

erratically. What about they can do it, but

38:38

maybe not all that well? Well,

38:40

in that case, let's talk about him not doing

38:42

the job that well. I don't think it's relevant

38:45

what his discussions are with a therapist or a

38:47

GP. Like I don't think whether or not he's

38:50

on medication was relevant to the Australian

38:52

public. I mean, I would have thought that being prime

38:54

minister should come with its own therapist. I agree. You've

38:58

got to talk to someone and in that

39:00

role, you can't trust many people. And of

39:02

course you would have some very unique challenges

39:05

in front of you in terms

39:07

of how you were feeling and

39:10

how you lived your life. And I just don't, I

39:13

don't know. I don't understand how anyone could

39:15

do it. But in terms of what's in

39:18

the public interest, what's the right

39:20

to privacy? I don't know if that's reconciled

39:22

because the other thing that we like and

39:24

need as a people is strong

39:27

leaders that feel bulletproof. Like remember

39:29

during COVID, everyone was like, Josh

39:32

Frydenberg's my daddy kind of vibes. It was like,

39:34

I want someone to tell me that it's going

39:36

to be okay. But are you not a strong

39:38

leader who's bulletproof if you're struggling with your mental

39:40

health? Also, nobody is bulletproof. Leaders

39:43

are humans. And if we don't, so

39:45

I'm kind of arguing against myself in that

39:47

I think, you know, I actually advocate for

39:50

leaders showing us their human side. My issue

39:52

is that Scott Morrison never did that. And

39:54

that I agree with you Mia that I

39:56

think every prime ministership should come with maybe

39:58

a team of therapists. But because for

40:00

them to do a really good job, they need

40:02

to be in a good place. And I don't

40:04

mind what that takes. I don't mind if that

40:06

does take the occasional long weekend with your family

40:08

and whatever, and all of those things. We

40:11

do expect leaders to be bulletproof and we expect them

40:13

to be exceptional. I think we want them to be

40:15

human. But in terms of stigma, I

40:18

think that Australia is in a place where we

40:20

would, when I say we, I mean like broadly,

40:22

culturally, pub testy kind of thing, except

40:24

absolutely a prime minister going to see a therapist.

40:26

I don't think we'd have a problem with that.

40:28

If you were like, Albo has an hour

40:30

a week, I mean, I don't, I'm not saying that he does, but

40:32

like imagine Albo has an hour a week where he goes and talks

40:34

to his therapist. I don't think anyone would be bothered about that. But

40:37

are we still at a place where it

40:39

was like, and they are actively suffering from

40:41

anxiety, depression, taking medication? I don't know if

40:44

we're involved enough to get our heads around

40:46

that. And I think that is stigmatising. And

40:48

I think that explains why there are a lot

40:50

of Australians who would not want to disclose to

40:52

an employer or, you know, a

40:54

company that they are medicated or that they

40:56

have a diagnosis because they think it makes

40:58

them look flaky. You

41:01

don't want it to be weaponised. And also when

41:03

you're going through it, you don't have a lot

41:05

of clarity around it often. I guess that's why

41:07

you need people around you to say, hey, mate.

41:09

And that's why people were so outraged when they

41:12

discovered all these things that he was doing behind

41:14

the scenes. And quite a few of his former

41:16

colleagues have said when they've been asked about

41:18

this since the revelations, oh, that explains

41:20

them all. Which again

41:22

is stigmatising in a way because now

41:24

the narrative around Morrison is that he

41:26

was unstable and doing wild things and

41:29

oh, this is why. But as you

41:31

kind of said, Jessie, it might well

41:33

not be why. No, it could be

41:35

despite instead of because of mental illness.

41:38

If you're struggling with any of these topics

41:40

that we've talked about, we'll put some links

41:42

in the show notes to places to get

41:44

help. If you've

41:46

ever wanted to know what Jessie's marriage is

41:48

like, I

41:51

don't know what to say. I can't tell

41:53

you what Jessie's marriage is like because I

41:55

actually am very curious about your marriage. You

41:57

are up close to that marriage all the

41:59

time. and you just went on holiday with that marriage.

42:01

You're part of that marriage. Oh,

42:03

don't say that. That's just as last night. Well,

42:07

last week we did an episode where Jessie shared

42:09

all the things she's learned in her first year

42:11

of marriage. And I learned a lot from that

42:13

episode too. Here's a little sneak peek. And

42:16

this is actually in Lucas' vows and I didn't

42:18

take any notice of them at the time. And

42:20

then I realized that they're actually quite wise. He

42:22

said in his vows to me that we'll always

42:25

be on the same team. Can

42:27

it be used in a manipulative way though?

42:29

Cause I can imagine it's like, you know,

42:31

if one partner, for example, has a higher

42:33

standard of cleanliness than the other, and

42:36

they're like, can you

42:38

please just put whatever, we're on the same

42:40

team, we're both on the same team. And

42:42

it's like, well, that's got nothing to do

42:45

with it. You want everything to be at

42:47

your standard. Sometimes he does that actually is

42:49

because of this household and then he'll make

42:51

some claim. And I'm like, this household never

42:53

agreed that we would hire now pillowcases,

42:56

not that, but that. And

42:58

there's a link in the show notes

43:00

to that episode. Out loud as it

43:02

is almost time. Look, Holly had two

43:04

anxiety joins last night. She woke up

43:06

screaming. And why is she waking up

43:08

screaming? That is because this Thursday. This

43:10

Thursday friends, we are heading to Brisbane.

43:13

You don't make it sound very fun. Holly, maybe

43:16

you need to be on medication. Sorry, I make

43:18

it sound high stakes. I think that'll make it

43:20

sound like anything could happen. Very gonna be enormously

43:22

fun. I'm just nervous. I've got a fair anxiety

43:25

medication for me. This is our first Mum Mia

43:27

Out Loud Live presented by Nivea Cellula. If you're

43:29

in Brisbane last minute, there are a few tickets

43:31

left is this Thursday. Please come and see us.

43:34

It is gonna be so fun. Holly might have

43:36

a panic attack. We can't wait to see you.

43:38

We have so many surprises planned. I mean, it's

43:40

the best live show we've ever done. We haven't

43:43

done it yet. But, and I think, and Mia's

43:45

worked out what we're gonna wear. It's gonna be

43:47

great. You're gonna get fomo if you don't come.

43:49

Please come. There's gonna be outfit

43:51

changes. You won't be surprised for here. You can

43:54

grab tickets at outloudlive.com.au or there

43:56

is a link in our show notes. Thanks to Nivea

43:58

Cellula. Thank you for listening. to

44:00

us on Australia's number one news and

44:02

pop culture show. This episode was produced

44:05

by Emily and Gazella, the assistant producer.

44:07

It's Charlie Blackman and there's been audio

44:09

production from Leopoldus and we'll see you

44:11

tomorrow. Bye. Shout out to

44:13

any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you love

44:16

the show and want to support us as

44:18

well, subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very

44:20

best way to do so. There is a

44:22

link in the episode description.