0:08

Hello, and welcome to making you X

0:10

work. I am Joan Natallee. Our

0:12

focus here is on folks like you doing

0:14

the tough often unglamorous work

0:16

of UX in the real world. My

0:19

guests shared their struggles, their successes,

0:21

and their journey to, and through the trenches

0:23

of product design development. And of course,

0:26

user experience. Before

0:29

we get into it. I'd like to give a quick shout out to

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stash.studio to check out their incredibly

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well-designed products and learn more. My

1:03

guest today is Tanya not Tia

1:05

Vici. She describes herself as a

1:07

multi-faceted design leader, offering

1:09

innovative design solutions centered around

1:11

the enhanced user experience with an emphasis

1:14

on simplicity, usability,

1:16

and beauty. I had the opportunity to

1:18

do some consulting for Tanya's team

1:20

a few years back. And I can tell you that

1:22

this description is very accurate. And

1:24

the only thing missing is the unwavering

1:27

care and support that she gives

1:29

her team a very quick glance

1:31

across her LinkedIn endorsements reveal a very

1:33

common thread, and that is that she has

1:35

built a culture where each person

1:38

can work to their full potential, which

1:40

I promise you is no small thing. Here's

1:43

my conversation with Tanya Nadia Vici

1:46

on making UX. So Tanya,

1:48

how are you, how

1:49

are you doing?

1:50

I am very, very good.

1:53

So the last time

1:56

you and I spoke, was it a year

1:58

ago or a year

1:59

or two years ago? I think it might've been two years

2:01

ago. Went by pretty fast. Yeah.

2:03

So you, your, your

2:05

career and your position has changed a little bit

2:08

since then? A little bit, a little

2:10

bit. So right now, I

2:12

think when we had met, was

2:15

it two years? Maybe even three years ago?

2:18

Yeah, I think it was three years ago. Wow.

2:22

So I had just started

2:24

at Ventura at that time and

2:27

started a design team there wasn't an

2:29

existing design team. Right. And now

2:31

flash forward three years later,

2:34

we're at about. I don't want to say

2:36

25 design professionals

2:38

within the corporation. And I'm the

2:41

head of customer experience

2:43

and design there. So

2:45

10 that's huge to me, that's, that's massive

2:47

growth. I mean, you know, three years may seem like

2:49

a long time to some people, but I

2:51

think that's massive growth because correct

2:53

me if I'm wrong. But when you came in, there

2:56

was no official sort of, you

2:58

know, UX design team there, is that

3:01

correct? Yeah. There was no

3:03

team at all. We had two

3:06

business analysts, one who

3:09

decided to go the user researcher

3:12

route and is now a product

3:14

manager. And then we had another business

3:16

analyst who went the

3:18

UX UI designer slash front

3:21

end developer route. And

3:23

they were in need of some, some leadership

3:25

and guidance. And then that's where I

3:28

came in and yeah, we quickly

3:30

grew, but also Ventura. Within

3:33

two years after I joined,

3:35

had doubled in size as well.

3:37

So that, that growth was sort of in line

3:39

with the growth of the organization as a whole,

3:41

definitely. And also the organization

3:43

taking on a user centric centric

3:46

strategy really opened

3:48

up a lot of new doors as well.

3:50

So

3:51

when you came in, did you have the

3:53

intention or expectation that,

3:56

you know, this, that the UX part of the business

3:58

in particular was going to grow like this?

4:00

I had an inkling, I didn't

4:02

know that it would be that

4:05

fast and

4:07

that, you know, we would go from

4:10

basically zero design professionals

4:12

to almost 30. In

4:15

less than two years, which was crazy

4:18

so that I do, I was not prepared

4:20

for.

4:20

So tell me in

4:23

terms of all that right at the time that it happened,

4:25

how do I want to ask this? Just, I don't know,

4:27

tell me about some of the, some of the challenges

4:30

of, of ramping this up from,

4:33

you know, nothing to. Sure.

4:35

So I definitely

4:37

don't think that Antara was

4:40

prepared for it. It was

4:42

much like if you think

4:45

back when folks were started

4:47

adopting agile, right. For

4:49

me at that time I was at PBS

4:51

and it was in, I think it was like 2017

4:55

or sorry, 2007 or 2008.

4:58

And agile was a new concept to folks.

5:00

And you think through

5:03

doing agile versus being agile,

5:05

right. You go going through the motions

5:08

of, right, right. We're going to have

5:10

daily stand ups and we're going to move to combine

5:12

or something like that. And people are just going through

5:14

the motions. So I think it was

5:16

very similar to that

5:18

within the organization to adopt

5:21

a user centric mindset. And

5:23

you and I both know that there are many misconceptions

5:26

about UX. Yeah.

5:31

And many,

5:33

and, you know, we may not have branded

5:35

ourselves in the right way, but

5:39

P people were thinking, tell

5:41

us what the process is and we'll follow it.

5:43

And that's not what it is. Just like agile,

5:46

right? So it's, it's

5:48

the mindset shift. It's adopting

5:51

these core philosophies

5:53

in the way that you do things the way that

5:55

you work and the way that you ship products

5:57

now. So that

5:59

was something that leadership was

6:02

trying to understand as a whole.

6:04

And of course, making that

6:06

cultural shift was, was definitely

6:08

challenging. So

6:10

with my experience where

6:13

I had been before, I'd been in really

6:15

large corporations, really

6:17

small startups in Ventura was kind of a

6:19

middle ground there. And so some of the challenges.

6:23

I faced. And the team had faced

6:25

was how to properly integrate that

6:27

into a new project

6:30

or an existing project. So

6:32

it's definitely been quite a learning

6:34

curve there, but we're,

6:36

we're getting there and it, it didn't

6:38

happen overnight nor do I think it ever does

6:40

happen overnight. But we're still,

6:42

we're still working to make

6:45

things work and better integrated

6:48

for both. You asked an

6:50

agile, what did you

6:51

do to, or what kinds of things

6:54

did you or the team do to sort of move people

6:56

from this very prescriptive, you

6:58

know, way of thinking, like you said that tell us what

7:00

to do and we'll do it. What did you

7:02

do to move them from that

7:04

to a more holistic mindset of like, no,

7:06

it's in everything that we do. It's about everything

7:09

that we think about, you know, it's about how we make

7:11

the decisions we make. Well, we

7:12

also, we started out with a lot

7:14

of training. You were brought in

7:16

to talk through the generating

7:19

UX requirements. We had

7:22

one of my mentors, Dan brown come

7:24

in to talk through research. We had

7:26

Debbie Levitt come in and to do

7:28

two full days of training. We

7:30

which were two different cohorts to integrate

7:32

UX. So there was a lot

7:35

of talking to professionals

7:37

who had been in the industry for

7:39

quite some time, myself and my team.

7:42

Also provided training to

7:44

the corporation as well, but that wasn't enough.

7:47

What was, what really was

7:50

instrumental was us winning

7:52

a UX focus project

7:55

that was massive

7:57

large enterprise complex

8:00

systems. And

8:02

it was hard. It was, it was really

8:04

rough to get a team.

8:06

Integrating UX is one thing, right. But

8:09

for this specific project, it was 104

8:11

AP. And so that's a lot of communication.

8:14

It's a lot of strategizing. It's

8:16

a lot of evangelizing in

8:18

a cultural change. So

8:21

I would say it took a really good year,

8:23

year and a half for team

8:25

dynamics to be in a really good place

8:27

for folks to understand the value of

8:29

understanding users working

8:32

together and getting into a great cadence,

8:35

both with agile and with UX.

8:37

So being able to

8:40

live that and see results

8:43

within an actual project

8:45

is what helped to shape

8:48

what we were trying to do within the corporation.

8:50

Was it that kind of thing where as it went along

8:52

and people were sort of seeing not just improvement,

8:55

of course, you know, in the, in the project or in what you're

8:57

working on, but improvement in the ways in

8:59

which they work with each other maybe, or, you

9:01

know, improvements in them feeling

9:04

like their work was. Useful

9:06

valuable at a, at a much deeper level. I mean

9:08

that those kinds of things help ease

9:11

that sense of like, okay, this is all new. And it's

9:13

kind of freaking

9:13

me out. Definitely because those

9:16

misconceptions, those early misconceptions

9:19

of following a user centric

9:22

model means big design

9:24

upfront, or they

9:26

want to control the user experience.

9:29

Other folks in other roles don't have

9:31

a say were quickly broken

9:33

into. And a

9:35

lot of the philosophies with UX

9:37

and agile are very similar, right? Like

9:39

people over processes and, and

9:42

trying to move to true cross-functional

9:44

collaboration is what

9:46

happened. And that example

9:48

was set and also the

9:51

participation of our stakeholders,

9:53

our clients, and our users in

9:56

basically every phase of

9:59

product development showed that

10:01

value. We were having developers

10:03

go in during the discovery phase

10:05

and assessment and things like that to better understand

10:07

the users and vice versa within development

10:10

researchers and designers, weren't dropping

10:12

off at the end. Right. And so

10:15

within the team, That

10:18

built that core value

10:20

of trust and communication, and

10:22

really letting people do

10:25

what they did best while opening

10:27

their eyes to see that the user

10:29

experience is everyone's responsibility.

10:32

Would you say that during the course of that, that

10:34

work, that project, that everybody's,

10:37

you know, all the different roles you just mentioned that

10:39

everybody's depth and frequency and involvement

10:41

was consistent from start to finish, like

10:43

you said, as opposed to people

10:46

dropping off at different points,

10:47

I don't know about consistent, but it

10:49

wasn't like throwing

10:52

grenades, you

10:55

know, it was no longer, no

10:59

longer those, those dead jobs, those handoffs.

11:01

But there were more supporting

11:05

during those times when you would think

11:07

that, oh, that role shouldn't

11:10

be in that phase. Instead,

11:12

like for instance, we have. A

11:14

lot of business analysts who

11:17

were research focused

11:19

and very interested in the user experience

11:21

who were analyzing business requirements,

11:24

but helped out with facilitating

11:27

research sessions and

11:29

taking notes and joining in, on user

11:31

sessions and whatnot. So they

11:34

understood that user researchers

11:36

and business analysts are not the same, whereas

11:39

before they had thought that. Right.

11:41

And so that's a big thing too.

11:43

And they ended up helping out with UX

11:46

QA towards the end when we were

11:48

already in production. So yeah,

11:50

it's, it's definitely been

11:54

eye opening for those who have wanted

11:56

to come in with an open mind.

11:58

And I think it helps, I mean, this

12:00

kind of structure and way of working that you're

12:02

describing helps tremendously. I

12:06

have come to believe that a big part of the reason.

12:09

UX never gets fully integrated. Quote

12:11

unquote, I'm doing air quotes with my hands. Inside

12:13

organizations is because

12:16

there never is a true integration.

12:18

It's still relegated to this part

12:21

of the process or this part of the

12:23

work or whatever it is. For

12:26

instance, you just said to me, and I don't just mean you extras.

12:28

I mean, everybody, you mentioned the developers,

12:31

right. Are involved upfront. They're being exposed

12:33

to things like research. And if you think about

12:35

what the definition of agile is supposed to be,

12:38

it's very difficult for one portion of an organization

12:40

to be agile when everyone else is still

12:42

sort of conducting themselves in a very waterfall

12:44

like manner.

12:45

Right.

12:46

Definitely. And it, it sounds

12:49

like that's kind of how you sidestepped

12:52

that trap.

12:53

Yeah. And I mean, let's be real, right.

12:55

Nobody is

12:57

truly as agile as they

12:59

say they are. And

13:03

so. What

13:05

I was alluding to a little bit in the beginning

13:07

was that UX design, maybe

13:10

isn't branded as well as agile.

13:12

And so everyone wants to be agile,

13:14

right? But then UX is a little bit more complex

13:16

with all of our acronyms of

13:18

CX and UX

13:21

and ECB, HD, whatever it may

13:23

be. Right. But

13:26

eliminating those silos was

13:28

a big part of, I hate

13:30

to say buy-in, but it's getting

13:33

those different roles to understand

13:35

the value that we're trying to bring across the entire

13:38

experience, both internal and external

13:40

for our, our users.

13:42

I think I know what you're getting

13:44

at and you say, I hate to say buy-in what

13:46

is it if it's not buying it? Well, a

13:48

big part of it I will say within

13:51

Conterra right, is the support.

13:55

That the team is

13:57

given to

13:59

make a quality valuable

14:02

product. And so the

14:05

reason I hate to say buy in is

14:07

because it feels like you're trying to sell something

14:09

instead of really proving

14:11

the value of, of being user

14:13

centric, that's where I was going. Right.

14:16

And so luckily I

14:18

have that full, like 150%

14:22

support, you know, from

14:24

leadership. And we've

14:26

been lucky there where I know

14:28

as in a lot of other organizations,

14:31

they might not get that support.

14:32

Well, there's a lot of fear. Yeah. There's

14:35

a lot of fear, especially because, and

14:37

I sort of get that right. Because if

14:39

you haven't seen it yet, Or

14:42

if you've sort of been witnessed

14:44

to these very, a lot of times

14:46

through nobody's fault poor integrations

14:48

of teams and, and ways of working,

14:51

I you're sort of reticent, you know,

14:53

to, to put all your trust in something

14:55

like this. If you're an executive, if you're a stakeholder, if

14:57

you're a, you know, someone whose neck is on the chopping block

15:00

one way or another for results or performance,

15:02

I totally get it.

15:04

Definitely. Yeah. And it, it

15:06

doesn't always work. Right. You know,

15:09

we're, we're lucky on this one specific

15:11

project that I'm speaking about, but there are many

15:13

others where embedding

15:15

design professionals might not be

15:17

the right time. They might not be ready for

15:19

that. And we have

15:22

to look at that as well

15:24

to see what would

15:26

work and what wouldn't work.

15:27

Yeah. I don't think it's ever the same way twice.

15:31

yeah.

15:32

I mean, especially if you work with multiple clients,

15:34

multiple external clients, it's

15:37

never the exact same flavor. Twice.

15:40

That's why I think some of this sort of set and

15:42

forget it methodology that I, that

15:44

I see and read about and hear about all too often,

15:46

you know, it, it kind of makes me nervous and is why

15:49

I talk so much about it or maybe against

15:51

it is that you can't

15:53

get married to a recipe. There's no such

15:55

thing. It doesn't, it doesn't always

15:57

apply the same way, you know, for

16:00

every organization, every project, every team combination

16:03

of personalities, what have you, and it sounds

16:05

like that's the approach you're taking.

16:06

Yeah. There was a lot of folks who will think,

16:08

okay, well, now that we've found this

16:10

right recipe, if you will, to work, it'll

16:13

work across everything. And there was definitely no one

16:15

size fits all. And, and understanding

16:17

that from the get-go, I

16:19

think will help people succeed a bit more

16:23

because a lot of folks are looking for that. Especially

16:25

with a lot of clients that I've spoken

16:27

to like, well, if you've done it there, you can do

16:30

it anywhere. Right. And, and that's not the. So you

16:32

and I both now,

16:35

yeah. Let me just press this button and

16:38

we make this playbook for you.

16:43

Yeah. It's, it's hard. I think it's,

16:46

I think it's tremendously hard is tremendously

16:48

challenging and that's a hard sell, right. Because

16:50

everybody wants a

16:52

sure thing. Everybody wants that reassurance.

16:55

I mean, let's face it. All of the stuff that we all

16:57

do every day is, is hard. These

16:59

are not easy problems to solve. So

17:01

I get it. I totally get it. How

17:04

hard was it for people on the team?

17:06

And when I say that, I mean, you know, everybody

17:08

from you extras to designers, to developers,

17:11

to your business analysts, to

17:14

how smooth or how rough it was,

17:16

sort of the slotting in and out of, of

17:19

people in places and collaboration and all that.

17:21

Like I I'm in my head, I'm going, like, how

17:23

did you guys wrangle all this at

17:25

that

17:25

size? We, you definitely

17:27

experiment. And not

17:30

to say that

17:32

I'm a huge advocate for

17:34

just like always breaking things. Right. I don't think that

17:36

that's the right way to go, but I think that you should

17:38

be able to learn quickly and adjust.

17:41

And you know, of course we add all about

17:43

that. So we did experiment with

17:45

the way that the team was structured.

17:47

I think that plays a big part, especially

17:50

with a team of 140 all

17:52

together. Right. So also.

17:55

In the beginning, it was really hard

17:57

to establish a multi-track

17:59

approach with research, feeding,

18:02

into design, feeding into development.

18:04

And I think once we

18:06

were able to get those dynamics

18:09

in place, understand how

18:11

much actual time was needed for

18:13

upfront research, just to get

18:16

the right amount of requirements

18:18

and design and whatnot. Then we really

18:21

kind of hit our groove and

18:23

had different teams responsible

18:25

for different things. Right? So we did have some

18:27

research teams. We had some development teams

18:29

in that really even got research

18:32

ahead, research

18:34

and design ahead of development for

18:36

a full pie, which was amazing.

18:38

Wow. How much did I said generic

18:41

term, but I'm trying to think of a better one. And I can't how

18:44

much the communication play

18:46

into getting to the point where all this was

18:48

starting to run the way it needed to.

18:52

That was key and everything.

18:55

And when we had first started

18:57

out for this specific project communication

19:00

wasn't there. So it was

19:02

really bumpy, very, very

19:04

bumpy. And I so my role

19:07

on, on that project was to be

19:09

the design lead, if you will,

19:11

to oversee and help out

19:13

with project dynamics and

19:16

issues and whatnot. I had to have a few

19:18

sessions where all of the roles

19:21

got together and what I call a mashup

19:24

where we spend like a full day

19:26

together to talk through. Issues

19:29

things that are going well, what we can

19:32

work on, not to say like it's a retro

19:34

or anything like that, but it's to get everything

19:36

out on the table, be completely transparent.

19:39

And, and candid with one another

19:41

across all the roles so that

19:43

people were able to be

19:45

empathetic to their coworkers

19:48

and understand what their perspectives might be.

19:50

And that was, that happened at some

19:52

of our toughest points to

19:54

where things just weren't going. Right. So

19:56

it definitely was not all smooth sailing,

19:59

not like any project ever is. But

20:01

that helped to surface a lot of

20:03

the issues that came up and. I

20:06

want to say it really made things work

20:09

to where people were honest with each other.

20:11

They were honest with themselves and

20:14

were able to move past those

20:16

hurdles,

20:17

which I think is is a huge, huge part

20:19

in this. The reason I asked that question, one

20:22

of the biggest challenges I've seen in every

20:24

organization I've ever walked into is

20:27

always communication. It's not so much,

20:29

you know, that people don't want to talk to each other. It's,

20:32

it's usually a combination of, of

20:34

bad old habits or

20:36

structures that don't allow

20:39

for frequent communication

20:41

or ideas about wasted

20:43

time doing this or that, or meetings or

20:46

whatever, or tools in some cases, right?

20:48

When you have distributed teams, it's all sorts of things.

20:51

But what you just described as is

20:53

music to my ears, because of what I've seen

20:55

by a large throughout my career is that that is

20:57

usually. The solution is like,

20:59

let's get real about what's happening

21:02

here, how often it's happening, how it's affecting

21:04

all of us, where we are, what we need

21:06

to do, where we need to pivot. And let's not

21:08

sort of cause ourselves on any unnecessary

21:10

pain, just get it out there and deal with

21:13

it. Yeah. There are a lot of, a lot

21:15

of folks, right. Who still operate

21:17

in what

21:19

we would consider. I don't know, maybe 10 years

21:21

ago where it's more top down communication,

21:24

command and control, right? Closed

21:27

doors conversations, and a

21:29

few folks make decisions.

21:32

And then it trickles down into the team.

21:34

And I think breaking

21:37

those types of communication

21:40

barriers. To be

21:42

more cross-functional to actually

21:44

pivot as a team instead of, as

21:46

a group is, is

21:48

really key and communication is, is

21:51

number one. Yeah,

21:52

I, you maybe, and

21:54

I'm not going to go into the full story, but you just made

21:56

me think of this. I was actually fired once from

21:59

a client because I

22:01

had to sit down with two executives and I said, look

22:05

until you sort of allow

22:07

these people to talk

22:09

to each other on a more frequent basis. And

22:11

until you allow them to be honest, give them some safety,

22:14

right. To voice everything that's going on and, and

22:16

empower your managers to deal with it. This

22:18

isn't going to change the outcomes that you're

22:20

dealing with, the physical and

22:22

financial and emotional pain that you're all feeling

22:25

is not going to go away. And they got

22:27

very upset with me and

22:29

they fired me. And then two days later, They

22:32

call me back and

22:36

it was like, all right,

22:38

let's try it.

22:41

Well, that's good. You gave them a reality

22:43

check.

22:43

Wow. Before I walked out, I said, look, if

22:46

you're happy with what's going on right now. Okay.

22:48

If you can sleep at night, if, if this

22:50

isn't following you around on your shoulders all

22:53

day long, 24 hours a day, then

22:55

Hey, keep doing what you're doing. But if I'm you,

22:58

I don't want this. I don't want the stress.

23:00

I don't want the pain. I don't want the aggravation,

23:02

like who the hell wants to live like this. So

23:06

all that reminded me of that story.

23:09

And it's, it's the kind of thing where it goes

23:11

back to what we were saying about, you know, you

23:13

asked about how it's it maybe has a

23:15

perception problem, a branding problem, a messaging

23:17

positioning problem.

23:20

Because the parts that aren't really

23:22

well-defined or talked about enough, I think

23:24

are the parts that you and I are talking about right now,

23:26

which is, you know, how do people. Communicate

23:29

with each other. And how do we make sure that everybody's involved

23:32

at a level that's productive, that's helpful.

23:34

That's collaborative, you know, I

23:37

think silos are, are easy and

23:40

sometimes it happens unintentionally.

23:41

I think definitely. I mean, it's easy

23:43

to blame. It's easy to be reactive.

23:46

So it's going to continue for

23:48

a bit, right. Until people

23:51

change their mindset. And

23:52

I think I can imagine I'm

23:55

guessing here. Right. But, but it would

23:57

seem to me that, that an undertaking,

23:59

as large as the one you just described with

24:02

as many moving parts, as many people,

24:04

you know, big projects, how much

24:06

of your job became helping

24:09

the humans involved? In addition

24:11

to just doing the work. In other

24:13

words, helping people move past their

24:15

worry and their fear and their failures,

24:19

maybe in some way, w places where they're hitting

24:21

the wall, places where they're frustrated places

24:23

where they're like, I don't think I can do this. And. Did

24:26

you have any of that? That

24:27

was most of my

24:29

role. Yeah,

24:33

that was most of it. I mean, there were definitely

24:36

times where I had to go hands-on

24:38

with the work. Right. But the majority

24:41

of it is everything that you

24:43

just said because of

24:45

the size of the

24:47

team, the client, it

24:50

being new, there were,

24:53

I want to say around 18

24:56

to 20 design professionals within

24:58

that 140. Right. And

25:00

then outside of that, majority of

25:02

folks had never worked with design professionals

25:05

before, so it was a new way of working.

25:07

So a lot of that was dealing

25:09

with. Misconceptions

25:12

a lot of people problems

25:15

and working through that

25:18

for sure. Yeah.

25:22

Yeah. Okay. It

25:24

is to a large part. And the reason I

25:26

asked you that question and the reason I think

25:28

it's great that we're talking about this, this instance

25:30

is experience. I

25:33

think it's very easy for younger people

25:35

or people who are just getting into this profession in particular.

25:37

I think it's very easy to get seduced by this

25:39

idea that well, here's

25:42

how projects work, right? We, they go this

25:44

way and, and everybody works

25:46

together and it all feels

25:49

a little too neat and tidy for

25:51

me oftentimes. And I think what happens is

25:54

folks who are new to it and particular when

25:56

they get on their first project and they see the

25:58

sort of inherent difficulty in chaos

26:00

and all sorts of other things

26:02

that occur just naturally, right. It's

26:06

just a natural order of order of things. And

26:08

I think it, it sort of shocks them

26:11

and they get discouraged. And I guess

26:13

I'm on a mission just

26:15

to show that, look, it kind of, it

26:18

never goes this perfect smooth

26:20

way. These bumps are part of the

26:22

deal, right? They're part of how it works

26:24

and, and dealing with them is a huge

26:26

part to me, at least of doing UX

26:29

work.

26:29

I completely agree. And I think

26:32

throughout the beginning of that project,

26:34

right. What I kept hearing from

26:36

a lot of folks who. Traditionally

26:39

had not worked with any design professionals

26:42

before. I feel this is the most

26:44

dangerous phrase ever is,

26:46

you know? Well, we've always done it that way.

26:52

Talk about a grenade,

26:53

right. And

26:55

so if you're going in on a

26:57

project that you've never tackled before,

27:00

that is new to you. Working

27:02

with people that people

27:04

in roles that you've never worked with

27:06

before, and you want to tackle it, how

27:09

you have been for the past,

27:12

you know, 20 years or so, it's

27:14

probably not gonna work. And so

27:17

we. You had a lot of

27:19

folks who joined that project

27:21

and it was their very first role and they just,

27:23

you know, went in both feet first and

27:26

they killed it. They were amazing at it, I think because

27:28

they were so open-minded on how to

27:31

work with other people, other roles

27:33

and stepped in and did whatever they needed

27:35

to do to, and took initiative. And

27:38

so it's very telling when

27:41

you have those, a lot of the,

27:43

a lot of projects, not just this one, but

27:45

I think multiple projects, when you have folks

27:47

that are very set in their ways and come with

27:49

that kind of mentality of

27:52

we've always done it that way. It's

27:55

dangerous.

27:56

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And

27:58

what you're encouraging and

28:00

by, by you, I mean, you specifically, what

28:03

you're encouraging is the opposite of that, right?

28:05

To say, no, this

28:07

is a unique situation and we're going to deal with

28:10

it for what it is. Not, not

28:12

what has been done in the past. Not what we think

28:14

is going to work. Let's deal with. You

28:18

know, I, I lose my patients

28:20

every once in a while and post something on social

28:22

media because I, I react to

28:24

what I see. And a lot of what I react to is

28:27

this idea of, well, that's not UX.

28:30

That's not how that process works.

28:32

That's it. You're not doing real. You

28:34

x-ray. And unfortunately, this always comes from

28:37

people who are entrenched in this industry who

28:39

really, to me, if you've done something

28:41

for long enough, you really should know better.

28:44

Right. It comes across as,

28:46

as judgmental comes across as gatekeeping.

28:49

And above anything, everything else, I think

28:51

it just doesn't help anybody. Right.

28:53

It doesn't help anybody do anything by

28:56

saying, because what they're saying is what you

28:58

just said, we've always

28:59

done it this way. Right, right. Doing

29:01

the same thing that, you

29:04

know, bothers us.

29:06

Yeah.

29:07

It's just not helpful. All right. It's not

29:09

helpful. I think there are, there

29:12

are always multiple paths to the. Outcome.

29:15

There's always multiple ways, you

29:17

know, to do the work.

29:18

Right. And as designers

29:20

right there, I remember there was this one designer

29:23

that I had spoke to and

29:25

I won't name any names. But he said,

29:28

you know, I'm always happy with my first design.

29:33

Wow. I wanna meet that guy.

29:35

And so, you know, it's kind of taking on that

29:37

same mentality where

29:39

it, you just know, I mean, and

29:42

you and I, having been in the industry

29:44

for some time, you never get

29:47

your first design and there's many different

29:49

ways that you can go about trying to

29:51

find a solution. And I think that that's the

29:53

same for. Team dynamics

29:56

and project and how to get to

29:59

that end

30:00

goal. Yeah. That, that to that's a music, a foreign

30:02

concept. I don't understand. I mean,

30:04

even, even after you've, you're forced to be done,

30:07

you know? Right. You still look

30:09

at it every single time you're confronted with it. After

30:11

that all you see are 40 things

30:13

you want to change, like

30:17

why the hell didn't I think about it and why didn't

30:19

we? And, and

30:21

I think that's okay. Right. That's that's part of what

30:24

keeps you good.

30:26

I think that when you become that,

30:29

self-satisfied, I think you seized

30:31

to be useful to yourself first and foremost.

30:34

And I think you're, you're, you're not helping anybody

30:36

else accomplish anything either. And I

30:38

think that's, that's a bummer

30:42

if, for lack of a better way to put it.

30:44

Yeah, definitely. No, no

30:46

growth there. Hindering

30:49

yourself with your first solution.

30:52

So speaking of growth from

30:54

the time that you started, right, when you first

30:57

got into design and this could be as far back, you

30:59

know, maybe from college, I mean, you tell me

31:01

from the time you sort of dipped

31:04

your toe into this area, to where

31:06

you are right now. I

31:09

guess I'm just going to leave it open. What, what,

31:11

what brought you here? What, what interested

31:13

you in the first place and what happened

31:15

to sort of spark or inspire or

31:18

inform the evolution of, of

31:20

how your career

31:21

has gone? Let's see. Well, I've definitely

31:23

always been into

31:26

the arts from the moment

31:28

I could grip a crayon. Right. I've always

31:30

been into traditional art

31:33

and all that growing up, I think

31:35

from the time of like three years old. And

31:38

then. In

31:41

high school, when I was in

31:43

high school, they didn't have any of those programs.

31:45

You know, like what they have now for

31:48

what I'm assuming would be graphic design

31:50

and web design. And then, so

31:52

when I was in college, right, it was

31:54

just art. When

31:57

I was in college, they had labeled

31:59

it interactive media.

32:02

And even the folks that I had

32:04

talked to within admissions, weren't sure

32:06

what that was.

32:10

I remember those days, like that

32:12

word was big media. It's like interactive, new

32:15

media

32:16

was another. Yeah, there,

32:18

they weren't sure what it was, what it entailed,

32:20

but luckily I

32:24

go do it, go do

32:26

it, give us your money. And

32:28

take these courses that were not sure what

32:31

they really mean. But I had

32:33

a really great foundation

32:35

where I just, I started off with,

32:38

they had, I went to

32:40

art school and they had coding

32:43

as well. So I

32:45

had learned PHP,

32:47

my SQL, you know not

32:50

to date myself.

32:51

I'm more curious about how,

32:53

how early or how young, this

32:55

kind of stuff was that,

32:56

that it was, what

32:58

is it when I was around 1920?

33:02

Yeah. They

33:04

had anything in everything, which

33:06

was great, because you could see

33:08

what you really wanted to focus on. Probably

33:10

the

33:10

benefit of, of, of that. Right. Is

33:13

it all being new in that the it's kind

33:15

of the kitchen sink,

33:15

right? Right. And then they had of course,

33:18

like Photoshop, InDesign

33:20

and illustrator classes as well.

33:22

But me getting to see

33:24

how my designs could go into code was what

33:27

interested me. And so

33:29

after that, I went

33:31

to, you know, the AOL

33:34

and PBS and Washington post

33:36

and was really able to hone my skills

33:38

there. I, I pretty

33:41

quickly in my career and went from designer to

33:43

senior, to a director at

33:46

PBS, and then joined

33:49

the Washington post to really help out

33:51

with team dynamics there as well. And

33:53

then luckily I was able to

33:55

join H shapes which was

33:58

a big change for me because. Going

34:01

from those really big teams,

34:03

really big corporations of like thousands

34:05

of people to

34:08

eight shapes at the max. When I

34:10

was there, I think we had about 16

34:12

people and learning from just

34:15

full on professionals

34:17

within research and design was

34:20

completely eye opening. And

34:22

also working completely distributed,

34:25

opened up new ways of working

34:28

together with, with people

34:30

from all over the place.

34:33

So. That really

34:35

tuned me into getting

34:37

into the nitty gritty problems.

34:41

Whereas at AOL PBS

34:43

in the Washington post, it was more so

34:45

designing in-house right. And

34:47

not really talking to a

34:49

plethora of users and going

34:52

through what I would

34:54

consider best practices

34:56

of processes that are instilled

34:59

for certain problems that you're trying

35:01

to solve. Right. And so when

35:03

I was at H shapes and then moving to Magnum,

35:06

I was able to instill a lot of those best

35:08

practices and building on things

35:11

that I wanted to focus on to help me

35:13

really grow and

35:15

get to know people in the industry

35:18

that. Were trying

35:20

to solve those really complex issues

35:23

within inner team workings

35:25

and working with clients and

35:28

real problems that people

35:30

have been facing on a day to day that

35:32

they are actually addressing.

35:34

So if you had to narrow

35:36

it down to a couple of things, you know, like you said,

35:38

you, you sort of rose up through the ranks pretty quickly

35:41

from what I can see and what it sounds like, right.

35:43

In terms of what you were able to do, what you're able to

35:45

take on. In my experience, there are normally some

35:47

personality traits that go along with that.

35:50

What do you think that was for you? For

35:52

me taking

35:54

all of that experience.

35:56

And then when I started out

35:58

Ventura, right, I'll be

36:00

honest. The big reason that

36:03

that drew me to Ventura was

36:06

meeting with those two business analysts

36:09

who wondering, and do, you know, product

36:11

manager now and the other, I would say designer

36:13

front end developer, Is

36:15

to be able to help them

36:18

succeed. And so I

36:20

think a big reason that

36:22

I do what I do is to

36:26

better the lives of my, my team

36:29

to push them, to be able to do the

36:31

best that they can do in their job and

36:34

me helping to pave the way within

36:36

the organization to

36:39

change that, that mindset

36:41

that was was there when I started.

36:43

So I think that I've

36:45

definitely come a long way. There's

36:47

definitely way

36:49

more work to do. Always,

36:52

always, yeah, but I

36:54

think perseverance and

36:57

being able to separate

36:59

yourself from the problem to see things a

37:01

little bit holistic. And have that vision

37:04

has been what's what has kept

37:06

me going to see

37:08

that we're, we're definitely

37:10

improving the lives of folks, of our users

37:13

and within the corporation.

37:15

So I don't know if that's full

37:17

on personality trait. But

37:19

I, I like to

37:22

be very candid, very

37:24

transparent in everything I do. And I think that

37:26

the company really appreciates that candor.

37:29

Well, that's probably part of it. I mean, I think

37:31

as crazy as it may sound, I mean, that kind

37:33

of, you can call it radical

37:35

candor. You can call it, you can just call it honesty,

37:37

you can call it. The other terms are escaping me, but

37:40

that trade in and of itself, I think is a very big

37:42

deal because it's in short supply in

37:45

a lot of places, particularly in large organizations

37:48

where there's, there's a lot of pressure or,

37:50

or inherent rules or structure

37:52

or whether those things are actually there or

37:54

not, people sort of feel. Here

37:57

are these boxes in which we're allowed to operate.

37:59

Right. And it has sort

38:01

of always been the case throughout

38:03

my career that I've seen, you know, when one person

38:06

actually says, well, wait a minute, I know

38:08

you guys are all saying this, but I can't

38:10

help think, but what if

38:12

we did this, or maybe

38:14

this is causing this and

38:17

you see the body language of eight other people,

38:19

all of a sudden, you know, come to attention, like, cause

38:21

you know, they're thinking the same thing. And

38:25

then at that point, when, when attention breaks,

38:28

then there's a productive conversation. Right.

38:30

Then good things happen. So

38:32

to me, that is a personality trait. And

38:35

if, if you've been the type of person where, you

38:37

know, and this is anybody from your first job,

38:39

if you have the attitude of, I want to learn

38:41

as much as there is to learn

38:43

and you're willing to have

38:46

open honest conversations with people around

38:48

you, whether that's asking questions or

38:51

giving opinions, right. I

38:54

think it helps tremendously. I think it's a massive

38:56

key to moving forward

38:59

in your career as opposed to

39:01

keeping those things to yourself.

39:03

For sure. And I think a lot

39:05

of it is also with as

39:07

much experience as we may have in whatever

39:09

role should always

39:11

strive to keep learning, you know, be

39:14

always be that lifelong learner. I never

39:16

think that you're the most knowledgeable

39:18

person in the room

39:21

I'm laughing because that was, that

39:23

was literally the tweet that I sent out yesterday. We're

39:26

all beginners. We're always beginners. We're always

39:28

going to be beginners. If you're any good at

39:30

what you do, what you just

39:32

said has to ring

39:34

absolutely true. The minute

39:36

you decided you're done learning. I think you're done

39:38

retire

39:39

then. Yeah. I mean, what's the, what's

39:41

the point? I love that. I mean, personally,

39:44

it's one of the reasons I love teaching right

39:46

online and in person. Because

39:50

you learn an extraordinary amount

39:53

from students.

39:55

Oh my God. Because you

39:58

get, you get to see the true range of

40:01

people and how they think and how they attack problems

40:04

and, and they, they come up with ways

40:06

to approach something that you would have never thought

40:08

of in a million years. And

40:11

it's, there's nothing that excites me more. I don't

40:13

think

40:15

I agree. I mean, I have, so I have four

40:17

daughters and

40:19

the way that they tackle something

40:21

is, is very eye opening. So

40:24

always learning something new and especially

40:26

in our industry where it's always

40:29

changing all the time. You know,

40:31

when, when we first started out, it was called

40:33

web design. And then now

40:35

we've got machine learning, AI,

40:37

virtual reality, augmented reality,

40:40

and don't know where that's going to Dell. We might be designing

40:42

for our wrists and stuff later, you know,

40:46

I think it's, it's, there's always

40:48

room to learn and grow.

40:51

Yeah. Without question, you mentioned your daughters, there's

40:53

four of them. Did they go about doing things differently

40:56

or is there any similarity between them in

40:58

terms of the

40:58

way they approach some similarities,

41:01

but for the most part they're

41:03

very, very different. I mean, my oldest

41:06

who is about to turn 11 she's

41:08

the very, she likes

41:10

to look at everything first from all sides

41:14

and break down problems. Whereas

41:16

my second one, she

41:18

just goes in and tries

41:21

to break things. Right.

41:24

Right. And, and, you know, apologize

41:27

later. And

41:30

then my third, who is who's

41:33

six she

41:35

likes to ask questions

41:38

to people who have done it before. Right.

41:41

So they're, they're very different. My youngest is

41:43

only two, so she'll probably break things

41:45

as well. But my three oldest definitely

41:49

everything that they do, they approach very

41:51

differently.

41:52

So you've got a multidisciplinary team they're

41:54

all cross functional

41:59

and in all seriousness, I mean, that's why people

42:01

with different styles need to work together and

42:04

balance each other out. You

42:06

need somebody on that team who's sort

42:08

of willing to just try and break things. And then

42:10

you also need that person. Who's there

42:13

to say, well, wait a minute, let's think about this for

42:15

a second. We do that.

42:18

And there are lots of companies. I know Ventura

42:20

is one of them where we've done personality

42:22

tests to see,

42:25

you know, how you might approach a problem

42:27

or, you know, one of them was. If

42:30

you were to plan a party, how would you go about

42:32

it? You have different groups that, you

42:34

know, order drinks first you know, and other

42:36

other groups who wanting

42:39

to want to pick a venue for us. Right.

42:41

And so getting all those different groups

42:43

together and working together really is,

42:45

is the key because you're going to have many different

42:48

perspectives and different ways of finding

42:51

the right solution together. So

42:53

what's on

42:53

your plate

42:53

right now, right

42:54

now. What's the, what's

42:57

the what's the

42:58

challenge right now is

43:00

being able to clone me would be

43:03

great. So I

43:05

oversee a lot of the projects

43:07

within the corporation. So kind

43:10

of, not to the extent that

43:12

I was on that one project that we were talking about

43:14

with 140 folks, I'm not super,

43:17

super hands-on as I was there,

43:20

but strategy of

43:22

Ventura is to be

43:24

user centered in everything that we do.

43:26

And so a big part of that is making

43:29

sure that that is integrated

43:31

into the way that we are developing

43:34

our projects products within

43:37

the corporation. So that's

43:39

one aspect of what I'm doing

43:41

also of course, managing the team

43:44

of about 25 or so folks

43:46

now also involved

43:49

in a lot of sales. To

43:52

win more clients

43:55

that understand the value of

43:57

user centered design and

44:00

agile as well. And

44:02

then I've been taking on

44:05

most recently, I was speaking

44:07

engagement at an agile conference.

44:09

And then also I helped

44:12

Debbie love it as a contributor

44:14

contributing author on her most

44:16

recent book, Delta CX,

44:18

then a lot of fun. I

44:20

didn't

44:20

know that. Oh, nice. That's very cool. I've been

44:23

actually meaning to read her book. She, and I've been

44:25

talking via LinkedIn. That's

44:27

very cool. So with all this stuff,

44:31

because it's a lot, I mean, you've just described a lot.

44:34

How do you. Quite

44:37

frankly, it's hard. It's definitely tough,

44:39

especially with the mentoring

44:41

that I do as well, because I do tend

44:43

to stress about the problems

44:46

that my team is having. And the team

44:48

dynamics within projects and stuff.

44:50

So what I

44:52

try to do now, which I have not

44:54

been very good at is, you

44:56

know, when I get home or if I'm working

44:58

from home, I give myself a cutoff time

45:01

to where I can just do

45:03

nothing and focus on family.

45:06

And unfortunately

45:09

I do end up working off

45:11

the late night as well, but it at least

45:13

gives me time to break

45:15

free and say, you know, I just

45:17

need to focus on myself, my mental health

45:20

and my little ones and my husband,

45:22

of course. So that helps to

45:24

drive me the next.

45:27

It's

45:27

hard. I mean, it's, it's hard for for

45:29

me as well. I mean, my wife and I both are self-employed

45:32

and we, we both struggle

45:34

with that because it's always there.

45:37

It's always there and it's always on

45:38

your mind. Yeah. And I know you do a

45:40

lot of you do a lot of

45:42

traveling as well. Right. So

45:44

I mean, there are some times when I will have to travel

45:47

for a client sales pitch or,

45:49

you know, something like that. And that

45:51

takes a lot, a big toll with

45:55

family life as well.

45:57

Last year I was gone every other month, last

46:01

year. And at the end of the year,

46:03

I thought, you know what? I don't ever want to do this again. It's,

46:05

you know, and it's hard. It's

46:09

saying no to stuff is,

46:12

is hard. You

46:14

know, when, when there are messages in my inbox

46:16

or direct messages or questions

46:19

in the online courses or whatever,

46:21

and it's Saturday night, you know, And

46:24

part of me is like, I just need

46:27

a break from this and the other part's going,

46:30

but those people they need to,

46:32

they need your

46:33

help. And,

46:35

you know, look, part of that is probably, it's nice

46:37

to feel needed as well, if

46:39

I'm honest, but it's tough. It's tough to say

46:41

no. And it's especially tough if you care about

46:43

what you do, but I'd venture

46:46

to say that it's a battle worth fighting

46:48

because the outcome sort of speaks

46:50

for itself. You know, a few things make me feel better

46:53

and I suspect you're the same way. Few

46:56

things make me feel better than when

46:58

someone says you have no idea how

47:00

much this means to me or how much it helped me

47:02

or I was able to accomplish this. It's

47:05

to me, it's, it's a lot like when

47:08

your kids do the same thing, you know, it's

47:10

sort of that same feeling you

47:12

feel. I feel, I always feel very honored to

47:14

be an emphasis. The world obviously

47:17

needs you.

47:19

Thank you. Likewise.

47:22

Well, we're at the point where

47:24

we've got about 10 minutes or so left,

47:26

so I'm going to divert

47:29

this conversation to what we call some hot

47:31

seat questions, which aren't

47:33

really, you know, they're not gotchas or anything.

47:35

Cause I don't like that kind of stuff. So

47:37

there's, there's a number of them that I ask.

47:40

But the first one I want to start

47:42

with is what do you think

47:44

is it's a heavy one, I guess. What do, what

47:47

do you think is the most difficult lesson you've

47:49

learned thus far in your career

47:51

or in your life

47:53

difficult lesson? I

47:57

think it's, it's probably a very

47:59

obvious one, but

48:01

it's hard to do.

48:04

And that is, I think,

48:06

you know, it ties into what I've

48:08

been saying that, you know, communication is

48:10

key in almost everything

48:12

that we do. But being

48:15

able to see

48:17

from someone else's perspective

48:20

when there is a disagreement

48:22

has been both

48:26

really hard to do, but also very

48:29

eye opening to help you

48:31

tackle whatever problem

48:34

is being faced in a different way. And

48:37

so I've been thinking about that

48:39

a lot lately, too, because of

48:41

some, some issues

48:43

and concerns that have come up in our recent

48:45

project that I'm trying to help where

48:47

if a lot of folks would

48:50

be able to look at

48:53

their role and other roles

48:55

from a different light, it would really just

48:58

change the dynamics a bit.

49:01

So I think that's a lesson learned

49:03

for me that I also try to have

49:05

a lot of folks on my team. Try

49:08

to

49:08

do any idea why that's so hard

49:10

to do. I

49:11

mean, we're only human, right?

49:13

So we typically

49:16

human nature is to look out for yourself.

49:18

What's going to help either, you know,

49:21

elevate you and your career,

49:23

make you look good, or, you

49:25

know, even outside of work, human

49:27

nature did to just want

49:29

and do what you need and we're wired

49:31

that way. Right. So

49:34

I think that's why it's so hard to change

49:36

that. I mean, I'm not going to get political

49:38

or anything, but within

49:42

the, the way that the world is right

49:44

now. Yeah. I think that would

49:46

be a game changer.

49:48

The more people did that

49:49

could not agree more. I

49:51

could not agree more. And that's, and that's, I think

49:54

that's exactly what it is. I

49:56

mean, you're watching it unfold with the, with the reactions

49:58

to what's happened in, in the primary. Right? What

50:01

happened yesterday, super Tuesday you know, all these

50:03

things about. And I don't want to get

50:05

political either, but I feel like I have to say this no

50:08

immediately. Everybody's like, well, Warren should

50:10

drop out. Like why?

50:15

Because you think she should drop out. I mean,

50:18

to, to, to what end, like, who's

50:20

the say, like this person doesn't believe

50:22

in what they're doing. Other people

50:25

believe in what she's doing. And I, and I say this

50:27

with any candidate, right? This,

50:29

this knee jerk reaction to, well, they should do this.

50:31

They should do this. Well, according

50:35

to your view of the world,

50:36

right? It's one perspective.

50:39

There's more to it than that. There's more people

50:41

involved, you know, there's,

50:44

there's a lot more people involved that are going to

50:46

be affected by the outcome of that. Yeah.

50:48

We pretend that things are very, very simple

50:50

and very cut and dry and they simply,

50:52

aren't

50:53

not everything is black and white.

50:55

No, no. So anyway,

50:58

I'm with you this

51:01

way. It's going to be a painful

51:03

several months. I could tell you that. All right.

51:05

Let's, let's go to something lighter. Tell

51:08

me about a,

51:11

either a hidden talent that you have

51:13

or a hobby or

51:15

something like that. That maybe not a lot of people know

51:18

about.

51:19

Well, I am a

51:21

black belt in TaeKwonDo. Are

51:23

you serious? That

51:25

is awesome. Yeah. So

51:28

people always joke like, well, I'm going to have you walk

51:30

me through the parking lot.

51:36

How long have you studied?

51:38

It's been a while. So it would be

51:40

nice if I got back into it for sure.

51:43

But I still can hold my own. It's funny because

51:45

sometimes I joke with my husband kind

51:47

of half joking and I'm like, okay, just come

51:50

at me and attack me when I don't, when

51:52

I'm least expecting it.

51:56

It was like, like the old tub. Do you ever watch the old

51:58

pink Panther movies that

52:01

was this whole thing you want to cater to attack them all the time

52:05

you guys do

52:05

that? He's always like,

52:07

oh no, I know how this is going to, but

52:12

I can still hold my own. So those

52:14

skills are still there.

52:16

That is very cool. Very, very cool.

52:19

Here's another fun one. Cause we got a little more time.

52:21

Ah, you were on the proverbial

52:23

desert island. We can assume that

52:25

you might have electricity if you want it. But

52:28

you can have one book

52:30

or one movie or

52:33

one album, one piece of music

52:36

for the rest of your life. What's

52:39

it going to be?

52:40

Ooh, that's

52:42

a hard one.

52:44

I know it's

52:47

better to ask it. Let's

52:49

see. I think

52:51

it would definitely have to be an album just

52:53

because music is always

52:56

ruling everything that I do. I

52:58

always have music on. But which

53:01

album would that be? I

53:04

would probably say

53:06

smokey Robinson. Wow.

53:09

Nice. I mean, I can listen to him

53:13

forever on repeat all the

53:15

time. So that would be my

53:17

go-to any particular one

53:19

particular album or era

53:21

of his career?

53:22

Let me see the one that has I'm

53:24

blanking on the album name, but

53:27

has the tracks of my tears.

53:31

I could just listen to that over and over

53:35

looking it up. I'm curious which

53:38

album that was. That was, I

53:40

think that was the miracles, the miracles.

53:43

It looks like it was going to a go-go 1965.

53:47

Yeah, I personally I'm

53:49

in, I'm in love with that. John rhe in that, that

53:51

era of music. To begin with, because I'm in love with all music.

53:56

Likewise, it's

53:58

hard.

54:00

Yeah. There's something about those songs and

54:02

I wasn't born in that era. Right. But

54:04

I feel connected to that music in a way that I really

54:06

can't quite explain. I

54:09

don't know what it is.

54:09

I go through my phases. Yeah, I think

54:12

it's the album, the fabulous miracles.

54:14

You, you really got a, hold on me is

54:16

one of my, one

54:18

of my, like top tens. So

54:20

smooth. I mean, none of that's

54:22

the only word that comes to mind. It's just like,

54:27

he will live the rest of your life and never

54:29

be that cool.

54:32

That is true. And

54:36

he's delivering

54:37

it in this, this incredible

54:40

falsetto, you

54:42

know, which is an art in and of itself. There are a lot

54:44

of people who sing. Not

54:46

a lot of people who can actually do it convincingly.

54:49

I

54:49

also try to teach my girls, you know, a

54:51

lot of the background music that is

54:53

used, that's mixed in, in today's

54:55

music, eighties and nineties is

54:58

from that era. And so

55:00

they, they're probably

55:02

the only group of little girls that don't listen to

55:04

today's music. So they're, they're really

55:06

into all the different genres as well.

55:09

That's what, that's a really good to hear. I mean, I wonder

55:11

if that's generational, right? Every parents

55:14

are always like, ah, it tastes

55:15

musically. Yeah. It

55:18

really is true.

55:19

Yeah. I know. I agree with you. I think there's

55:21

very little music in it. Anyway, that's a

55:23

conversation for another six hours. Last

55:28

question. And that is as

55:30

someone who has spent, you know, obviously

55:32

a lot of time and, and a lot of time now

55:35

mentoring other people. What

55:38

advice would you give to someone who is brand

55:40

new to UX,

55:43

right? Or design or any aspect

55:45

of this, this field? Cause I think

55:47

it's big and wide. What

55:49

advice would you give them for someone

55:51

who's not only starting out, but is intimidated.

55:54

Okay. About like my God, there's

55:56

so much here. How am I ever going to be able to,

55:59

to learn it or get to it or, you know,

56:01

et cetera, et cetera.

56:02

Well, I think the first thing would be, you're

56:06

never going to learn everything and

56:09

to not try to place

56:11

yourself in a box where design

56:14

has different focuses. I

56:16

think our industry has, has

56:19

gone that way to where

56:22

you're either UX your UI,

56:24

your IAA, you're a researcher,

56:27

whatever it may be. Whereas

56:30

15 years ago, many

56:33

of us were. I,

56:35

and I hate to say, I hate this term.

56:38

I'm a one-person shop. Right.

56:41

But to, in

56:44

the way that the industry is going right now,

56:46

I think a lot of recruiters

56:49

and, and job postings try

56:51

to put people in that one box. And then

56:53

there's the opposite where they're looking for

56:55

a unicorn. Yeah. But

56:57

if you are eager,

57:00

eager to learn, not

57:02

boxing yourself into a corner or one

57:04

focus and know that

57:07

things are always gonna evolve within

57:09

our industry and that you're willing to

57:11

take on those types of challenges

57:14

to learn more, then

57:17

you'll go far. And

57:20

what does that saying? Jack of all trades

57:22

master of none. Not trying

57:24

to encourage that. Right. But

57:27

then, right.

57:29

But then you're able to see. What

57:31

you're really good at. And that's

57:33

where you start to Excel in your career

57:36

and, and hone in on how

57:38

you can evolve and get even better

57:41

at that and possibly other things

57:43

that tie into it.

57:44

Well, I would venture to say that you are

57:47

living proof that that's good advice, everything

57:51

that you've told me so far.

57:54

And, and, you know, seeing again

57:56

that trajectory of your career,

57:58

I think you've had a lot of success and that's the truth,

58:00

right? You have to be open to

58:03

finding out what

58:05

works best for you, right? Where your

58:07

talents are. Are best served

58:10

as only one way to do that. Yep.

58:14

Tonya, I cannot thank you enough for

58:17

your time today. I really truly

58:19

enjoy talking to you and I wish you nothing

58:21

but continued success, although I don't think

58:23

anyone needs to wish you success. You've already got

58:25

it.

58:26

Thank you so much. I enjoyed our time

58:28

today.

58:28

All right. Thank you very much. Have a great rest

58:30

of the week. And I will talk to you again soon that

58:35

wraps up this edition of making UX work.

58:37

Thank you very much for listening. And I hope that

58:39

hearing these stories gives you some useful perspective,

58:42

some encouragement, and I certainly

58:44

hope that you remember that you are not

58:46

alone out there. Whatever you're dealing with,

58:48

someone else has been there and just

58:50

like you will, they have found a way to

58:53

make it work. Before

58:55

I go, I want to ask you to please check out our sponsor

58:58

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59:00

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59:07

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Visit stash.studio to learn

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more. Also wants you to know that

59:13

you can find links to our guests,

59:16

social media, profiles, websites, and other

59:18

things that they have accomplished by

59:20

visiting. Give good ux.com/podcast

59:23

where you will also find links to more UX resources

59:26

on the web and social media, along with ways

59:28

to contact me. If you're interested in sharing

59:30

your own story here until

59:32

next time, this is Jonah, totally reminding

59:35

you that it is people like you

59:37

that make you X work.