0:00

Did you kill Marlene Johnson? I

0:03

think you're one of the first people to have

0:05

actually asked. From WBUR

0:08

and ZSP Media, this is

0:10

Beyond All Repair, a

0:12

new podcast about an unsolved murder that

0:14

will leave you questioning everything. Somebody should

0:16

be in jail for murdering my sister.

0:18

A woman who's never been believed. As

0:20

long as they think I have done

0:23

this, then they're not looking for who

0:25

actually did this. And that's what makes

0:27

it a cold case. No, it's

0:29

a botched case. And a search for the truth,

0:32

once and for all. Wow, it

0:34

just gets more interesting. Beyond

0:37

All Repair. Listen and follow

0:39

wherever you get your podcasts. Be

0:41

careful. You're digging in

0:44

a place that's been very peaceful for a

0:46

while. Do it anyway. Dig.

1:00

Love Letters is brought to you by Progressive. Most

1:02

of you aren't just listening right now. You're driving,

1:04

cleaning, and even exercising. But what if you could

1:06

be saving money by switching to Progressive? Drivers who

1:09

save by switching save nearly $750 on average. And

1:13

auto customers qualify for an average

1:15

of seven discounts. Multitask right now.

1:17

Quote today at progressive.com. Progressive

1:20

Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. National average

1:22

12-month savings of $744 by new customers

1:24

surveyed who

1:26

saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential

1:31

savings will vary. Discounts not available in

1:33

all states and situations. Hey

1:40

everybody, it's Meredith. For today's episode,

1:42

I wanted to share a conversation with you that

1:44

I had with someone who's definitely been a big

1:46

help to me over the years. And

1:48

maybe to some of you as well. It's

1:50

Astaire Parell. Astaire is

1:53

a psychotherapist, partnership expert, and

1:55

all-around very empathetic person. She

1:58

wrote books including the State of Affairs. and

2:00

mating in captivity, and she hosts

2:02

the podcast, Where Should We Begin, which many

2:04

of you know is excellent. I

2:07

think Astaire is such an important voice

2:09

on marriage, communication, things like

2:11

open relationships, and why we couple up to begin

2:13

with. She's currently on a

2:15

tour about the future of love and relationships.

2:17

She has a bunch of dates. DC

2:20

and New York are on the list, and I know many of

2:22

you live in those cities. Check out her websites

2:24

to see if she's near you. I

2:26

got the chance to catch up with Astaire on

2:28

Zoom before her Boston show this week. We

2:31

discussed everything from her love of

2:33

live audiences to Polly Emery's resurgence

2:35

in the zeitgeist to the pandemic's

2:37

effect on relationships. I even

2:39

got to thank her for helping me in my own dating life

2:41

in a way she didn't even know she did. We'll

2:44

explain in the interview. Enjoy

2:46

this bonus episode of Love Letters. Voila,

2:53

here we are. How have you been since,

2:55

wow, it's been a few years, huh? Well,

2:58

the pandemic will do that, right? I

3:00

think it's been, at least

3:02

in person since before then. So I'm

3:04

so excited you're coming. And well, I

3:06

have many questions, so I'll get going.

3:10

I know you have given talks in

3:12

so many different places, different kinds of

3:14

groups, and I wondered how geography

3:17

can influence what

3:20

you hear from people, the vibes

3:23

of people. Sometimes I've heard

3:25

that people in Boston have

3:27

a very different response to theater,

3:29

for instance, like whether they are

3:31

more open, applauded. I recently spoke to a

3:34

director who said, when we do this in

3:36

LA, it's different. And I wondered

3:39

what you found, even just giving

3:41

talks and engaging with your

3:43

community, how it changes depending on where you are.

3:47

I would put it to you a little different. I mean, I

3:49

have done a tour in Australia. I was in

3:51

London recently. I've been in Paris. I've been all over the

3:53

world, from Turkey to Morocco. I

3:57

think what is interesting for doing a tour in

3:59

the... U.S. is how

4:01

much I bring out the multiple

4:04

voices that live in that

4:06

city. So how

4:08

many of you are from Boston is a question

4:10

I may ask. And how

4:12

many of you were not born in the States or

4:16

came from other countries is

4:18

a question. And then when you start to have

4:20

30 countries present in

4:23

the audience, then Boston becomes

4:25

a different Boston, even

4:27

for the Bostonians. So

4:29

in Boston, I should

4:32

say in Greater Boston, there's

4:34

a lot of talk about polyamory, partly

4:37

because Somerville, which is

4:39

right outside of Boston, became the

4:41

first municipality to

4:43

become an ordinance. Right. So

4:45

and now

4:48

other towns are following. First municipality to

4:50

pass. An ordinance

4:52

saying that you could apply

4:54

for more than one domestic partner. So

4:57

and they did this during COVID because they said, oh,

4:59

we have a pretty strong polyamorous community in Somerville and

5:01

we want to make sure people can visit each other

5:04

in the hospital if they need to. And

5:06

now all of these towns around Somerville

5:09

are saying we want to do the same thing. And

5:11

it has made

5:13

a lot of people who might not think

5:15

about polyamory say, well, what is it? And

5:17

is it something I should be considering? Or

5:19

is it something I should fear? And

5:21

it's interesting when I talk to people, they are

5:24

sometimes afraid to ask about it, don't

5:27

know what counts, want to know more.

5:30

So many big media companies have also done

5:33

stories about this. Is this something

5:35

that's coming up more for you? Is it something

5:38

where people are checking in with you to see

5:40

how you feel about it? Like, I have

5:43

to believe it's not that new. It's just that

5:45

more the people are finding out that it has

5:47

always existed. So I

5:49

love the question. And there's three different ways

5:51

to answer it. First, I

5:53

wrote about consensual non-monogamy and

5:56

polyamory almost 10 years

5:58

ago. From the point of view of... non-monogamy

6:00

of how it helps

6:03

us reconcile the improbable

6:05

duality between independence and

6:07

belonging. Which

6:09

means that it was one of the

6:11

ways people are answering the fundamental dilemma

6:14

of how do I struggle the need

6:16

for security and the need for freedom.

6:18

Okay, or belonging and independence or

6:20

togetherness and separateness, all these same

6:23

dualities. But in addition,

6:25

I think that polyamory more

6:28

and more has become an answer to

6:32

questions of community building and

6:35

real definition and different way of thinking about

6:37

the sense of belonging. And,

6:40

you know,

6:42

I said before that the

6:45

nuclear model is too insulated and isolated.

6:48

I said before that we demand too much

6:50

from one person to give us what

6:52

the whole village used to provide. I

6:55

said before that gay couples have

6:57

long understood the difference between emotional

6:59

monogamy and sexual promiscuity. And

7:01

they understood that monogamy is

7:04

a primary commitment to a primary

7:06

relationship that may or may not

7:08

involve sexual exclusiveness, but doesn't per

7:10

se mean that. So

7:13

in a way, the queering of our society

7:16

has made us look consciously

7:18

or not to models that the

7:20

queer community has actually already long

7:22

embraced to pretend that it's new

7:24

is to deny that other smaller

7:26

groups by default

7:28

or by choice has been

7:30

able to create models

7:33

that were much more flexible in the definition

7:35

of the terms and

7:37

understood that a

7:39

20 year gap between an older gay man

7:41

and a younger gay man who are living

7:44

in a relationship in which one of the

7:46

both are taking care of each other in

7:48

particular unique ways does not mean that they

7:50

also expect that they would be sexual partners

7:52

par excellence. And

7:54

that is polyamory. So

7:58

the concept of linking polyamory not

8:00

to unbridled sex, but

8:03

more to community building, to

8:06

creating multiple systems of loyalty,

8:08

to creating multiple parents for

8:10

the children involved, and all

8:12

of that is a

8:14

very different way of looking at

8:17

polyamory than the kind of breaking

8:19

the rules around sex kind of

8:22

thing. It's much more grounded.

8:26

At the same time, it's not for

8:28

everyone, but neither is the other model.

8:31

What it really says is that we

8:33

can't have a one-size-fits-all, and

8:37

that certain

8:39

models fit at certain times of

8:41

our lives as well. That doesn't mean we're

8:43

going to live with one model for the whole life. And

8:48

that polyamory is a philosophy.

8:51

It's a practice. It's a relational

8:53

arrangement. It's not

8:55

just a solution to

8:58

the mishaps of infidelity in which first I cheat

9:00

on you and then I come to tell you

9:02

we should open the relationship and I

9:04

want to stay in touch with my lover. It

9:08

needs to be done in a context

9:10

that demands enormous equality. And

9:12

it's not for the faint of heart. It

9:15

demands an exquisite capacity

9:19

for communication, for fluidity,

9:21

for multi-pronged empathy and

9:23

understanding of divergent sets

9:26

of expectations and needs

9:29

like living in the community demands. There

9:33

is something hopeful to me. I think that's

9:35

the right word about an organized

9:38

government in some way

9:40

acknowledging that this

9:43

way of living can be on the books,

9:45

that it can affect your health insurance, that for

9:48

a long time, most of my

9:50

life, I've been very frustrated that you can

9:53

live all these different ways but yet policy

9:55

is not recognized. Yes. Yeah.

9:57

I can't agree more. By the way, Summer Village,

10:00

the first time where I lived when I came to America.

10:02

Really? That's exciting. Okay, so you

10:04

know it well. At the time, it was

10:06

more Portuguese than the Poly. But

10:09

basically, yes, the idea is

10:12

that the state recognizes

10:15

that marriage is not the only legitimate.

10:17

This is true not just for Poly,

10:19

this is true for packs. This is

10:22

true for cohabitation, you know,

10:24

and that involves property and that

10:26

involves inheritance and that involves visiting

10:28

in the hospital and that involves

10:30

wills, etc. And absolutely,

10:33

there is at some point

10:36

when people began to separate and

10:38

divorce, they understood that there

10:41

is no way to divorce without

10:43

also having a legal framework

10:47

that structures this divorce.

10:50

That it's one thing to say, you

10:52

know, I am culturally, emotionally, socially

10:56

able to separate, but if I can't do it,

10:58

if there is no no full divorce, this

11:01

is the same thing. The

11:03

making and the undoing of

11:05

relational systems involve legal structures.

11:15

I am maybe alone in

11:18

this or in a minority about this, but I

11:20

am still trying to figure out what

11:23

those years of isolation did for

11:27

me, how they changed me. And I

11:29

am feeling like we don't know

11:31

yet how 2020 and

11:35

the confusion after it affected

11:40

our relationships. I am constantly trying to

11:42

figure out if the

11:44

new way I feel about getting

11:46

tired after having social engagement is

11:50

because of the pandemic and or

11:52

is it because I am turning 47 and I

11:55

am four years older than I was so I'm

11:57

more tired. So I wonder as

12:00

you look at partners, how

12:02

they are, will they forever be

12:05

affected by what we experience, and to

12:07

what extent do you factor in that

12:10

world-changing event into the conversations

12:12

you have and things

12:15

you think about? I include

12:17

the pandemic a lot in my conversations

12:19

about the state of the union and

12:21

the state of relationships. I

12:24

think a

12:26

lot of things happened in the pandemic. The

12:28

first thing, I mean this

12:30

is not in order of importance, but this

12:32

is the one that appears to me the

12:34

first, jumps at me now, is

12:37

that we experience

12:40

the complete collapse of the roles. I

12:44

sat in this chair and I was the mother,

12:47

the supervisor, the therapist, the

12:49

wife, the friend, the

12:52

sister, all in this

12:54

one chair without moving, without changing

12:56

clothes, without going anywhere. And

12:59

this merging of the roles and

13:01

collapse of the roles, blending

13:04

all into one without the

13:06

transitions and the rituals that

13:08

usually help you differentiate the

13:10

various parts of your identity,

13:14

was an amazing psychological

13:16

experience. With that came

13:20

the exacerbation of all kinds of things.

13:23

There was a kind of gravitational pull,

13:26

domestic gravity. You couldn't go anywhere

13:29

and you were trying to stay safe

13:31

and you saw people as potential contaminants

13:34

and you never were breathing the same

13:36

air with them, which now you sit on a

13:38

plane and it's like you're half a minute looking

13:41

at the ones with the mask and you say,

13:43

maybe they know, maybe they're right. And the other

13:45

minute you say, they should take this off. I

13:48

see somebody on the street with the mask and I

13:50

say, outside you don't really need it. And

13:55

you couldn't be spontaneous. That's

13:58

another major aspect of life. the spontaneity,

14:00

serendipity, happenstance, the stuff that

14:02

happens on the street. And

14:05

we have not recovered that. We're not talking

14:07

to the stranger on the street. We're not

14:10

talking to people in line. We

14:12

have accelerated the virtualization of our life

14:14

and the digitalization of our life by

14:18

umpteen and we

14:20

didn't come back to work in person. And

14:23

by not going to work and being

14:25

together, I'm not talking about wasting your

14:27

time in stupid meetings, talking about the

14:29

stuff for which you go and you

14:31

interact with other people, to collaborate, to

14:33

learn, to see other people handle conflict,

14:35

all kinds of situations in the workplace,

14:37

to be mentored, to have someone notice

14:39

what you know to do well. I

14:41

mean, none of this, none

14:44

of this can take place in

14:46

a little box on a screen like we are looking at each

14:48

other now. Where

14:50

we think we're looking at each other

14:52

and we're not. And nothing on a

14:54

physiological level gives us the mirror neurons

14:57

that eye contact normally should generate.

15:00

Number three, the pandemic

15:04

created a social atrophy in

15:07

which we lost skills, the

15:10

everyday skills that

15:13

are the opposite of a contactless life. Where

15:16

you say hello, where you say thank

15:18

you. People keep the door open when you walk

15:20

in at this point and you are in your

15:22

phone so you don't, or you're talking to somebody

15:24

through your airport and you don't even notice that

15:27

somebody's holding the door and

15:29

you don't even say thank you. Or somebody needs for you to

15:31

hold the door for them and you don't see them. And

15:34

we have gone inward. We

15:37

have gone so much inward that we don't see

15:39

what's around us. And this

15:41

is just the people who hold the phone in hand. So

15:43

what will it be with the people who live with a

15:45

headset on their head? So

15:49

I know what people get when they listen to you. I

15:51

know what I get when I listen to you and

15:54

the way we

15:56

feel seen, understood, the way we learn. I'm

15:59

wondering, when you get to be in a room full of

16:01

people like this, what do you get from them, even

16:05

if it's just them being across from you? I

16:07

get so much. I mean, first

16:09

of all, I was sitting at South by

16:12

Southwest this weekend, and I had a conversation

16:14

with Trevor Noah, and I had

16:16

a conversation with Bernie Brown. With

16:18

Trevor, we were talking about what it

16:21

means to be in a room where

16:23

people are actually responding to what you're

16:25

saying. You hear their, you

16:28

hear their, huh? You

16:30

hear their, never thought of it this way. You

16:33

hear them, not sure I like this. You hear

16:35

them, yes, totally me. You're

16:38

not looking at a green dot. I

16:40

spent years lecturing in front of a

16:42

green dot on my screen, pretending I was

16:44

seeing people when there was nobody there, and

16:48

imagining that maybe I'm saying something funny, but

16:50

I could never hear laughter. It

16:54

was an amazing experience.

16:56

So both Trevor and I, we're

16:59

talking about what does

17:01

it mean to be in front of an audience, and

17:04

to experience the aliveness, and

17:06

to experience the coming together.

17:10

One thing he was saying is there's a reason

17:13

that in a comedy club,

17:15

there are no windows, and

17:17

you sit very close because you're

17:19

saying things that outside of the

17:21

club would have a very different

17:23

meaning. When

17:26

you are doing stand-up. And the

17:28

same thing is true with therapy, right? Outside

17:31

of the office, what people would be, if

17:33

people said the same thing as they say

17:35

to me, it would have a very different

17:37

meaning. But it is true in reverse too.

17:39

Some of the things that I've said in

17:41

my office, I think should

17:44

not just belong to the office with a

17:46

closed door, it belongs in the public square.

17:49

One of the things I really want to

17:52

create in the tour that

17:54

I'm starting now, is the

17:56

experience of collective effervescence. the

18:00

French sociologist, about how you create

18:02

an experience with a shared sense of

18:04

purpose and a shared feeling that

18:07

gives you a feeling of belonging, like

18:09

singing together or laughing together

18:11

or, you know, witnessing

18:13

somebody ask a question and everybody

18:15

tries to answer that question together,

18:17

even those who are not talking.

18:21

So all of that I

18:23

receive. I receive a

18:25

sense of relevance that what

18:27

I'm talking about actually matters. I

18:30

enjoy the co-creation, the

18:34

spontaneity in the moment. You know, the

18:36

majority of the evening is a

18:39

co-created conversation between me

18:41

and the audience. And we basically like a good

18:43

therapy session. It's the one that you don't know

18:45

in advance what it's going to be about. It's

18:49

when a patient comes in and says, I don't

18:51

know what to talk about today. And I'm thinking,

18:54

great. And then when the audience comes,

18:58

I don't know what they're going to talk about,

19:00

what questions they're going to have tonight, who's going

19:02

to be the person who's going to become the

19:04

marker of the evening. And

19:06

then I become curious. So

19:08

do I have an experience

19:10

of curiosity and exploration that

19:13

is communal? That's in

19:15

part what the evening

19:18

is for, whether you're single, whether you

19:20

are on a first date, second date.

19:22

I'd love for people to come, you

19:24

know, like that rather than go

19:26

and ask each other a set of boring questions

19:29

in a noisy bar, whether

19:31

you've been in a long-term relationship. And the

19:33

real show is kind of after you

19:35

leave, like a good

19:37

session. It's not only what happened in

19:39

the session, it's what it produces in

19:41

the relationship afterwards. I

19:44

think I asked you this the last time I talked

19:46

to you, but I always like to update anything you're

19:48

watching on TV, reading music,

19:51

anything that you're using for escapism

19:53

right now. Any

19:55

recommendations? So

19:57

what I'm watching now, actually, I begin...

20:00

Again, it's called One Night. Okay.

20:03

It's coming out soon by Emily Balu.

20:07

It's basically a group of people who come

20:09

back to

20:11

a process, an event that they had

20:14

experienced many years back together.

20:17

So what I would say. Okay, all right. Very

20:20

good writer, poetic, you know, different

20:22

kind of television. What

20:24

I've been listening to is a new podcast

20:26

that I didn't know before that is called

20:28

The Emerald. I

20:31

just listened to one of the episodes

20:33

that I thought was extremely thought provoking

20:35

that was called The Revolution Will Not

20:37

Be Psychologized. Got very

20:40

interested in the psychologization of our

20:42

society. Before I

20:44

let you go, I will just tell you in lockdown,

20:47

I decided I would do online dating for the first

20:49

time because I was bored and I

20:52

knew I wouldn't have to follow up with it.

20:55

I could see what was out there and

20:57

what people experience without having any intention of

20:59

seeing people. And I did over

21:01

a period wind up meeting

21:03

someone, but I couldn't find

21:05

that many pictures of me smiling except

21:09

for one where I'm interviewing

21:11

you. And I look

21:13

so happy and it's the one all the

21:15

guys liked. And I always laugh to myself

21:18

because I'm like, no one would probably guess

21:20

that on the other side of the couch

21:22

of that photo is you. And I have

21:24

always said, I only, I

21:27

only look like that. Looking cool.

21:30

Very glad. So

21:32

anyway, thank you for inspiring me to

21:34

look present and happy unlike

21:36

every other photo I've ever taken. You

21:40

know, if many people leave

21:44

the evening with that kind of smile,

21:46

you know, you ask me

21:48

what gives me pleasure, that would give me

21:50

enormous pleasure. I love that. Well, as always,

21:52

thank you for your time. I'm so excited

21:54

for you to come and to see it.

21:56

And yeah, we'll be here being buffed and

21:58

whatever that means. Wonderful. Wonderful. Look

22:01

forward to seeing you again. Okay. Bye.

22:04

Bye. Love

22:07

Letters is a production of the Boston

22:10

Globe and PRX. Today's episode was produced

22:12

by Jesse Remedios and Scott Hellman. Ned

22:14

Porter does our audio mixing, sound design

22:16

and mastering. Maddie Mortel does our audience

22:18

engagement. Special thanks to Linda

22:20

Henry. Our music is from APM. And

22:23

remember, Love Letters is also an advice column.

22:25

Send a letter about your love

22:28

problem to lovelettersatboston.com or

22:30

online at loveletters.show. I'm

22:33

Meredith Holstein. From PRX.