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This week's life note, we share the chair with our very first C suite marketing leader who also happens to lead through life.

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Welcome to Life Notes from Chair 17,

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a podcast dedicated to sharing life stories,

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wisdoms and inspirations as we navigate life's journey,

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post chas to share thoughtful perspectives and insights from her own life journey.

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As well as those of special guests, contributors tune in for thoughtful conversations about lessons learned wisdoms,

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gained experiences, had and inspirations shared.

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Find us where you get your podcasts and be sure to hit follow or subscribe.

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So you never miss an episode. Now enjoy this week's episode.

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All righty. Welcome back in friends to another episode of the Life Notes from Chair 17.

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I am your host, Ch and I thank you once again as always for finding me in this corner of the podcast universe.

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And as returning C 17 ers know,

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I like to start off each episode by thanking you for your continued support and tuning in each week.

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This does include our returning international listeners as well.

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Thank you so much for your support. But if you are tuning in for the first time,

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maybe you've just found us on one of the major podcast platforms or via our website out on life notes from Chair 17 podcast.com.

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A warm welcome in to you.

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Thank you for wanting to check us out. We hope you like what you hear and you will want to continue to tune in.

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And this episode is another in our share the chair series.

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And I really was looking forward to doing this episode as I had the good fortune to sit down with Jackie Yanie,

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who is a long time marketing leader and was most recently the former Chief marketing Officer of Tableau before she retired from the C Suite.

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And this is how I personally came to know of her.

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Given I was hired into the Tableau marketing organization back in the spring of 2020.

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And I had really a front row seat actually to sing her not only as a leader,

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but also as a very compassionate human being during those early COVID pandemic months and into the first year or beyond the first year as we were all still really trying to figure out not only how to work,

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but also how to live and at times having to be ok not being ok.

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And since we like to talk all things life journey on this podcast,

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I definitely wanted to have Jackie on to share some of her wisdoms and experiences given the whole of her life journey has covered a lot of ground from her beginnings in the United States Air Force to her entering the private sector and ascending into marketing leadership positions,

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which includes multiple stints as a CMO to also facing the really difficult diagnosis of her husband's deteriorating eye condition and its subsequent effect on the rest of her family.

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So she has quite a few nuggets of wisdoms and lessons and inspirations and we cover a lot of ground in the episode and I really did enjoy speaking with her and for her to make the time to want to be a guest.

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I personally feel that Jackie is one of those rare executive leaders that leads with what I will call an emotionally grounded and conscientious style of leadership.

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I think she even talks about this herself where it's referenced in bios of her.

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Uh So if you know of her, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

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If you've had the chance to work with her, you know what I'm talking about.

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But if you happen to just see her on linkedin or read anything about her,

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there is definitely a consciousness,

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a conscious effort to really be emotionally balanced and grounded in how she leads folks and how she carries herself.

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And that's not to say as we joke in the episode that she doesn't have what we would call maybe that typical type,

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a style of leadership or aspects of leadership that we sometimes associate with really,

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really senior leaders. But in my working experience I really feel I've only ever worked for a handful of folks like this that have this rare combination of emotional balance and centering and that tends to make them very relatable and compassionate.

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And she also definitely leads her own personal life this way as well.

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Now, she has a very long list of professional accomplishments.

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As we said, she's been in the CMO space for a long time.

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Over 20 years. She has been a public board member.

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She's an executive coach. She is a start up advisor,

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but there is also something she likes to say about herself that she has a passion and an advocacy for people and possibilities.

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And I think that that is potentially her greatest strength and I just personally love that she always signs her emails.

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Be kind, be brave be you if that is any indication of the kind of person and leader that she is.

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So it was indeed a real treat to talk to her.

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I thank her for inviting me into her home to do so.

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We will link in our show notes to all of the key organizations that she is now actively a part of either as a board member or non-executive director given.

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She has officially retired from c suite life,

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but she is and does remain very busy.

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The episode runs a bit longer than our typical episode,

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but our share, the ch series episodes do tend to run longer as they do often have some great discussion and some life wisdoms and experiences contained there in.

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So I invite you to tune in for the whole episode.

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And again, I thank Jackie for her time and her willingness and openness to talk all things life journey.

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And with that, as always, I ask you to be kind to yourself.

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Take it one hour at a time, one day at a time and enjoy the episode.

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Hi, Jackie. Hi, Courtney. Thank you so much for doing this.

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I sincerely appreciate it. We are actually,

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this is a long time coming. I think it's ironic that it's really the first time we've actually seen each other in person.

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It's very strange. Hard to believe.

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I know. And, um, when I started this podcast,

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I was for sure you had, I had a little start by your name because I wanted to bring you on because part of what we do here on the podcast is talk about life journeys,

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right? And having had the good fortune of being part of an organization that you ran as a CMO,

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I got to see both a very poignant I felt or powerful leader,

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but also human being too. And so it's kind of you to say it's very,

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I, I think I said it to you in multiple slack.

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You're what I call like a blue leader. So there's red,

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green, yellow,

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blue is kind of when you, if you take one of those,

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it's not like a work personality quiz.

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I know what you're talking about. I can't remember the brand name of that one,

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but I've done it same thing and um blue leaders have a,

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just an emotional ground to them and they have a great compassion and a great,

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I would say sensibility to them and I always felt that one.

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So I wanted to bring you on because you have quite a background which not everybody potentially on this podcast is gonna know.

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So for anyone who doesn't,

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Jackie actually has and is a veteran of the United States Air Force,

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what initially made you want to go into the Air Force and serve.

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So it wasn't really wanting to go in the Air Force and serving wasn't really how it happened.

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So, uh my dad worked for the Air Force for his career,

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um four years as an officer,

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but then later as a civilian engineer and we couldn't really afford college.

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So he asked me to look into the ROTC scholarships.

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This is the eighties. I was,

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you know, 5 ft tall and £100 maybe.

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And I'm like your daughter, like, really?

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And he convinced me to apply.

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If I got the scholarship we could discuss.

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Ok, so I got the scholarship.

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What I didn't realize was then we weren't gonna get financial aid from the institutions because they knew they could get the full ride from the military.

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So then I felt trapped. So when I showed up for what they called freshman orientation at my school,

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which meant the seniors were running their own little boot camp.

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Yeah. Yeah. And,

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uh, there were probably three girls.

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I mean, I was at an engineering school so you take,

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um, the school was 7 to 1 and the air Force unit was probably 25 to 1.

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So, yeah. So I called my dad and said, I hate you.

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I'm running with a bunch of men. I'm getting screamed at,

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I'm doing push ups. I don't like it.

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But so my freshman year uh in ROTC and at my school RP,

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I was not a happy camper, but then I started to realize that the people that I consider is gonna sound bad,

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but like normal in engineering school were the people doing the RT C programs?

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So I decided to jump in and make friends with those people.

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So I did met my husband that part.

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I do remember um and ended up with a job out of college,

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you know, with more responsibility than anybody in your young twenties uh deserves.

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So it really set me off on, on perfectly.

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I think on my later career,

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if you were to say today,

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the influence of serving in the military is greatest thing it taught you or a lesson that it taught you specifically.

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Um What's really stuck with me? Excuse me,

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I think are two things that I always carry.

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One is mission based. What do you mean by that?

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I mean that when a team or an organization is all about a clear purpose and what you're trying to get done,

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you can put up with a lot of little silly things along the way and I get aligned then politics don't really exist.

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You did a great um interview where you were saying you can get ahead without doing politics.

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So that was very powerful because not, I don't know many in my experience,

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I don't know many leaders that talk that openly about that.

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We talk about it at all or talk about it at all.

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Most have played it in some way, shape or form.

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So it's uh there are no politics in the military,

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would you say that's fair? That's probably an exaggeration.

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But I was in during Desert Storm and after Desert Storm.

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So for sure, during a war period,

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that kind of stuff doesn't happen. And so at least I got to experience it,

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but there are politics of how people got promoted and things I'm sure.

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But through a lens of in a wartime scenario focused on the mission.

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That's right. Nothing else mattered.

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And the second which a lot of people find surprising,

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but it was not only just leadership,

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but it was leadership through influence, not authority.

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So uh for whatever reason,

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uh the job I had uh as a lieutenant,

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I was responsible for a very big intelligence system during the war,

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but I did not have anybody reporting to me. So I was getting things done through influence and I kind of,

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I mean, I was a young 20 so I'm like, well, that this must be what leadership is.

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You don't just tell people what to do. You got a,

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you got a partner, you got a partner and I, I had contractors in all these different companies and all these different organizations had to work with other intel agencies and deployment and training and maintenance in the field and such.

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And then I just thought that's what leadership was.

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I thought it had anything to do with how many people reported to you on a sheet of it's how many people that you can pull together to work with you.

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To a that's kind of a segue into I,

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when I was drafting what I was going to talk about,

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I hadn't actually received an email from you, but since we had to reschedule this,

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I got the email. So I saw the tagline that you always sign your emails with,

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which is be kind, be brave be you.

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And I'm curious where that comes from.

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What is the inspiration behind it?

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I do tag lines for this podcast and I,

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I love little things like that sort of life,

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little life mantras. Where does it, where does it come from?

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Yeah. So these are three tenants that I uh try to live my life by.

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And I want so many more people to live by,

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especially right now. So I just,

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you know, you know, the power of being kind, right.

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And if more people could just focus on being kind and empathetic with each other,

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what a much better world we would have.

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And uh bu is a,

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well, I've always as a leader, I always wanted people to believe they could 100% be their authentic selves and believe that far better work comes out of that.

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And I'm disappointed that so many people don't think they can be themselves at work.

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And in other places, they walk around with some masks on and then they actually change masks depending on the setting and who they're with.

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And that's not the world deser deserves from each of us.

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The world deserves who we fundamentally are.

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That's why we're here. I remember one of your wasn't partying.

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Yes. But it was one of the last things I feel like you did before you stepped away from being um the CMO tableau.

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It was a round table and it was about sort of that authenticity of the,

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the authenticity of work. And it was talking about how difficult it is for underrepresented minorities.

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I remember what you're talking about. That was such a powerful round table.

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And I remember the term code switch, which was a new term to me.

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Same, same. And I'm like, oh my gosh.

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Yeah, I think I do that or oh, I never really thought some people are doing it all the time and how exhausting must that be to do that for 10 hours a day.

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And why the the call to have people come back into the office is disproportionately affecting those groups that feel they have to code switch more and being able to be as we were during the era of the pandemic and still some companies have committed to.

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It doesn't matter where you are, you can work from anywhere.

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Um In a virtual environment.

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There is that ability to not have to code switch as much or there was maybe for the first time people experiencing truly being able to be themselves without any kind of it leveled the playing field level,

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the playing field, it leveled the playing field. So I,

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I don't know if I ever got to thank you for that,

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but that was, that was such a it stuck,

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it stuck with me for a while and it was for all the folks that attended,

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I feel like it left an impression that is that being you is sometimes easier for others,

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especially in an in person environment than not.

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And to respect how hard it could be for certain folks to actually truly be able to do that certain groups of people to,

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to do that. And all the more reason to be encouraged by leaders to yes,

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to know it's ok. If nobody says anything,

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then the code switching just continues on to create that safe space and sort of,

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yes and, and no, no penalties for that because I,

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I do feel sometimes there is a talk to do it but is it actually something that we can feel is happening?

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And do we see it happening? And that's a big difference.

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It's that sort of, I think during COVID there was a lot of talk.

17:01

Yeah. These are the companies that then, you know,

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backed way up to the what, how it used to be because they never actually changed their minds.

17:07

No. And, um, that I think too as a,

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as an, as an employee that was hired someplace in a moment where that was seemingly a lot of the talk track and even for employees in other companies,

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that's why it's been so hard that it seems to have been pulled back where you got.

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But you said you said, right?

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And it was, and it was ok, flexible be yourself,

17:29

do what you need to do. No, we didn't actually just so,

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you know, it's a, it's an interesting reflection now because I,

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I think there was a lot of momentum towards that.

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And so I love that that is still something or these are tenants that are still very core to you as,

17:46

even though you've slipped away from being in the c suite,

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they are part of still how you engage with folks and what it is that you bring to wherever and then the just to comment on the third one,

17:57

the be brave. I,

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and this is what part of how I spend my time now.

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I hope and dream for more people to be more brave about following their passions and doing what they wanna do and not just stepping in the line of whatever they think the line is supposed to be.

18:14

And in the exact coaching, uh that I'm doing now,

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I feel like it's a lot of that. It's trying to help people with their internal courage to do what they either,

18:23

what they know is right, what they know,

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they believe in what they know they want,

18:27

what they know they need, but it's too easy to get caught in the circle the hair.

18:34

Yeah, that you're living in. And so people don't make those,

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I tend to call them brave bets. I imagine one day maybe doing a little consulting company called Brave Bets.

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There's a friend of mine. I love that. It's hard.

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I think we get comfortable and we,

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it takes a lot of, I, one of my things that I have strength,

18:52

confidence, courage. So, you know, give me the strength to do it,

18:55

the confidence to believe in it and the courage to see it through.

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And uh sometimes it's much harder to do than to,

19:02

and it goes beyond the individual companies are,

19:04

are often not very brave that aggravates me as well.

19:09

I love it. You've said that if people really do know,

19:13

you, they know that you obsess over having very real and very vulnerable conversations.

19:22

And I'm curious, where did that start?

19:25

And did someone show you that,

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or was it something you developed over the time that you have ascended into sort of leadership roles?

19:34

But also in life as well.

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That's a hard one. You know, I don't believe.

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How much time do we have? Exactly. I don't believe it was a moment.

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I don't believe it was a person. I don't remember.

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It's just kind of, yeah, I imagine it more as I started and then this a positive fly wheel started to happen and you start to realize like a lot of us feel alone with our struggles and yet more likely than not we aren't if you share and are vulnerable first,

20:09

other people are more likely to share with you if you are vulnerable and open,

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not just about like life situations but like what,

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you know, and what you don't know, you know, and where you're stuck and where you need help as a leader.

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I have found you get more out of the people that work around you on your team,

20:30

right? If you don't feel like they have to put up sort of code switch and be something other than just truthful.

20:38

And I tell them what, I had a bad board meeting and here's why.

20:42

And can you help me doing that at Red Hat once?

20:46

Um, I called together like six people from all over the org.

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And I'm like, I just had the worst meeting ever. Please help me.

20:53

And also, um the notion that leaders are just as human as anybody else.

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And if I can do it, you can do it,

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I guess is one positive message I,

21:04

I hope to give. And then over the years as I got to be more senior and I would give more talks.

21:11

It was often the feedback I got was how appreciative people were that I was being,

21:16

they wouldn't say vulnerable about a speech, but they would say open and honest and authentic,

21:21

which I appreciated. But I was also a little sad that they found that unique meaning like you were the first one to ever be that way.

21:28

Like shouldn't everybody be standing up there?

21:32

Did it? You, did you think you were in the moment that you were having when you were sharing?

21:37

Did, were you consciously aware of like, wow, I'm really kind of going out here and being vulnerable or you were just being you and just having I was conscious in the sense that so one of my life mottos,

21:48

maybe a little corny, but it's true. No corny is the Maya Angelo quote.

21:54

Yeah, that people won't remember what you said or what you did remember how you feel.

21:59

So if, if I have that in my head before every conversation and every speech especially,

22:05

then I am trying to be my true self because they're gonna remember how I made them feel.

22:11

And if you're just doing a robotic speech,

22:15

then there's no feel about that because the reason I wanted to ask about that or talk about it a little bit is because I personally saw that side of you uh during,

22:25

I can't remember if it was in all hands or whatnot.

22:28

And you were talking very honestly about the realization that your son is going to will inherit.

22:36

And we'll get to this discussion in a minute, the the same condition that your husband has that has seen him lose his sight.

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And the the challenge that your son had in coming to terms with that.

22:47

And he, he essentially got very depressed and went into a very dark place.

22:53

And I remember that you were,

22:58

you had to lead the all hands.

23:00

But you were also sharing that at the beginning as it just came out too.

23:05

It was weird like I did not play on,

23:07

on doing because it was so like this is what is her reality right now?

23:11

Yes, she's our leader and she's having this thing.

23:15

But this is what's going on in her life and she is acknowledging a very difficult moment.

23:20

And also I think giving us permission to look at ourselves and be like sometimes stuff just happens and it's not ok and it's ok to not be ok.

23:31

And that is one of the moments that really stuck out to me and that's why I call you a blue leader.

23:37

I don't know, you could take the test and end up being red and I could totally don't remember.

23:40

I have done it. I don't remember. I wasn't,

23:43

I think that's right. I wasn't red, I weren't yellow and weren't green,

23:47

green was processed. I think. So. It wasn't red and yellow is sort of super optimistic happy.

23:51

So it's got to be blue and red is like super type.

23:55

So, all right, cool. I think it was probably blue with some leanings to red.

23:59

I do have some obvious aggressiveness about me.

24:03

I think all leaders have you have, there's gotta be a little bit but not leading with red,

24:08

you lead with blue and then you have sort of the submental red.

24:11

And honestly, I will put in if I can find um a link to one of the ones we're talking about.

24:17

I for folks that do not know what this is.

24:20

Uh sometimes organizations actually have this,

24:23

they will have employees take it. It was a way in which we could understand better,

24:27

how to work with each other. Certain teams used to do it.

24:29

So how are people's communications? I don't know.

24:34

And I feel like I did two where one was colors,

24:37

but also one was letters too.

24:39

And so I will, I will look and find them.

24:41

We're not endorsing it or not. It's just for anybody that has never had that or doesn't know what we're talking about.

24:46

And she's like, why does she keep calling her a blue leader?

24:48

What the hell does that mean? It sounds really sad.

24:51

No, it's, it's the color and it generally speaks to that person's temperament.

24:55

It speaks to how they think, how they process,

24:58

how they lead, how they conduct themselves.

25:01

And so in getting back to that particular meeting,

25:04

I remember thinking in that moment,

25:07

I've never seen a leader do that and I've never s and we were obviously it was still pandemic.

25:11

So we were all still very vulnerable anyway,

25:14

because we've been cut off from a lot of people for a long period of time and we were all still processing it,

25:21

processing it. I think collectively as a working family in a way that we hadn't probably ever done before.

25:27

I remember I did, I did. Were you there yet?

25:29

I can't remember. I did a big reorg right before COVID happened.

25:32

I came in right after project agility.

25:34

Right. Yes. My timing was very, very bad.

25:37

I know. I know, I know at the pandemic,

25:39

the stupid thing showed up, right? Um But it,

25:43

it speaks to, I think uh what I like to say is on in some of the conversations that I have with people on this podcast or even in some of the stories that I tell you're,

25:55

you're just trying to share and be honest and let people know you're not alone if you're going through something or,

26:01

hey, you know what? I struggled with that too, or, hey,

26:03

I got more than 50 slack messages from people on our team.

26:07

I'm sure I know. I was one, I was like,

26:09

that was so amazing Jack.

26:11

But even just, um, yeah, and several like, struggling either on their own or somebody in their family with mental health at the time.

26:18

And I was like, wow, it was in my opinion,

26:22

that was very brave and very my husband's like,

26:26

because he could hear me, right? And he's like, what are you doing?

26:30

I remember I had tears like the whole thing.

26:32

Yes, I remember it was, I don't cry much,

26:35

but I was doing some crying in that time because it was,

26:38

it was very scary to me. It was scary and it was very deep and it was also there was no filter there,

26:43

right? There was just a true share and it's amazing how much um that can bring out of other people,

26:52

a willingness to also share and also go there or even acknowledge within ourselves that something's happening at that,

26:58

at that level. And that helps me too,

27:00

right? Because I was just struggling here with my husband.

27:03

That was to talk it out, to share it out then to hear that that story is helping other people potentially talk it,

27:09

share it out. So I don't think my son ever knew I did that well,

27:14

if he listens to this, he might now know he wouldn't be upset.

27:18

It's totally fine, but it was, it was very powerful.

27:21

It was not something you planned and yet it had such a positive effect on a lot of people and to get that immediate feedback validates,

27:29

I think how you approach showing up truly authentically in most of what you do,

27:35

whether it's how you lead or in your life.

27:38

So, and isn't it weird that the word authentic has gotten a little strange?

27:43

It's disappointing as well because like that,

27:45

like people that then don't mean it anymore.

27:48

It's become one of the talk tracks, right? Because we,

27:51

we talked about it so much during this condensed period of time and then all these companies aren't doing it anymore and it's like,

27:57

well, or maybe they have withdrawn kind of the boundary of being authentic or being able to show up.

28:05

And I, as so I'm sitting here as a,

28:09

like a foot soldier and I'm sitting opposite,

28:11

one could say is the, the general of,

28:15

of leadership. I'm obviously not in the military.

28:18

So that might be like really, really big gap.

28:21

But I was nowhere near that when I think about people that I've had the opportunity to see as my general leader or leadership general,

28:31

there's only maybe two or three that are in the same category as what I would call you.

28:35

And that is somebody who is constantly thinking about how they show up as a leader.

28:42

You're not sort of on autopilot and you just are the same every single year and you're kind of doing the same thing that you,

28:50

you evolve with what it is that you're trying to bring to that group that you're leading.

28:57

And I appreciate that in,

29:01

even if it was only for a short couple of years,

29:04

I could see that in you and I got to experience that and put you in my little,

29:09

you know, scrapbook is like really,

29:12

really rare Blue Sea Suite that I got to see for at least a couple of years.

29:17

Was there ever someone in your ascension will say into this executive leadership that had the same effect that you saw doing what you do or did you take pieces from them to form kind of how you have,

29:35

how you show up now as a leader?

29:37

Did you have strong influences early in your career or even later in the career?

29:42

I mean, I, I have kind of five or six kind of mentor leaders,

29:46

bosses of mine, one in particular the CMO of Delta did teach me a lot about eq like the like there's intellectual quotient and there's emotional quotient and she became CMO rising from being a flight attendant and she could very much read a room,

30:04

she could inspire thousands of front line employees.

30:08

She had been one. Yeah. And she was uh juxtaposed next to the CFO which was the person that hired me who was very high intellectual,

30:17

quotient and factual and logical.

30:20

She and I would meet like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

30:24

And then this other lady and I Vicky, we would meet like three hours talking about all the things.

30:31

And so I started to create this uh vision in my mind of somebody that was,

30:36

was both of these people and they didn't like each other.

30:39

They didn't understand each other. And one of my greater prides in my career is that I brought them together.

30:46

They later became best friends. They're still best friends to this day.

30:49

Oh, how long did that take out of curiosity?

30:52

Couple years. And what would you say is the thing that you felt,

30:56

you leaned the most on to bring them together.

30:59

Um I was literally an intermediary in the sense that I would meet with the CFO,

31:06

you know, I was going back and forth and explaining the other's point of view and why they had it.

31:13

And it was the CFO that hired me into this marketing job and it was partly because she didn't know what was going on,

31:19

but she knew she trusted me. But then I got her to understand she could also trust her.

31:23

I would say that is um it's kind of right brain,

31:26

left brain kind of thing, right? So we often sign like right brain.

31:30

People don't get along with left brain people. I've never really believed that.

31:33

And I've always, we have some of both but we do,

31:36

we're not one or the other. And I used to say I have a saying that it's like one person at a time,

31:41

one team at a time, one group,

31:44

at a time, one division at a time. So that the idea being is you drop in,

31:49

you don't know how or what people's styles are or what they're doing and you're learning each person and how to work with them and how to then work with these other folks.

32:01

And if they are on opposite sides,

32:04

uh oftentimes as a PM, you're somebody who is gonna have to understand all those,

32:10

all, all of them and bring them all together and be able to have a conversation with everybody in the same room and make sure everybody's kind of rowing the boat in the same direction.

32:19

And it was as a result of transferring up here and starting in a company which I didn't know anybody.

32:25

I'm like, well, I guess I just better start one at a time,

32:28

but it has made me observe the people's differences and divides aren't as wide as we think they are.

32:33

And it just takes a willingness to want to be that bridge as you say,

32:37

or the intermediary to continue those conversations and be willing to take the time and energy to do it that it's worth doing.

32:43

It's not hard, it's not, it's a, it's a time I've seen where a lot of folks just don't.

32:48

And it's not, I did again, didn't know the term code switching,

32:51

but I do remember switching my style to each one.

32:55

I wasn't in a sense being my complete authentic self,

32:57

but I'm much younger in my career. Right.

33:01

You know, so let's, let's behave how I know she wants me to behave.

33:05

Let's behave how I know she wants me to behave. Right.

33:09

That's a great feather in your cap as we. Exactly.

33:12

Because I love and I love it when you post and I think it's on linked when Delta still acknowledges your service and your just as a customer,

33:22

just as a customer. Right? It's, it kind of goes a long way of tapping into something more than just,

33:28

it was just a job. Oh, yeah. No, it wasn't.

33:30

You know, it just wasn't. And I, I do believe that those years I was there and we were coming out of 911 and revitalizing the brand and centering on the customer.

33:42

They have kept that. So the CEO there now is somebody I worked with.

33:46

Then the lady that's the customer experience officer is somebody I worked with.

33:50

Then that's a unique time for airlines.

33:53

Yeah, I mean, I, I thought that was the worst and then COVID happened.

33:56

So I feel like some of the best ads I ever saw came out of 911,

34:04

American and United and Delta and everybody started re advertising.

34:08

I remember doing one that was honoring the Delta people that were serving.

34:12

It's probably my favorite commercial I've ever done.

34:15

And the song we did was when I'm gone three doors down.

34:18

So, yeah, there was some powerful ad campaigns came out of bringing back the sense of being you were safe to fly because we were,

34:27

we're sponsoring things like the Fourth of July celebrations and things like that.

34:31

Yeah, your life journey definitely took a right turn when your husband was diagnosed with the eye condition that he has.

34:38

So for folks that are not familiar with the condition,

34:41

what is it? Yes. So it's extremely rare.

34:45

It's a hereditary eye gene mutation.

34:49

So it's called C A CD. I can't,

34:51

I still can't even, it's like central a oral coo dystrophy.

34:54

It doesn't even come out. Right. Yeah. But something like that C A CD only affects about 100 families.

35:01

Um around the world. The gene,

35:03

the mutations on is common to have mutations so I can.

35:07

So there's some good news there as far as research goes.

35:11

And I think of it basically like the DNA now has an instruction that says start killing the cells in the back of the retina in the center.

35:19

And then as time goes on more and more cells die now,

35:25

supposedly. And now that we're 5556 I think it's true.

35:29

But like our rods and codes cones change at the very periphery,

35:34

so he shouldn't go completely dark,

35:36

he should always have some periphery. So we take some comfort in that and we think maybe it's slowed down for him,

35:42

but because you were initially thinking he was going to go totally dark,

35:46

we didn't know. So when we first found out, which I think it was 2012 or 13,

35:51

they told us he's going blind, but they didn't know what it was.

35:54

So it took us about two years to get it because it was so rare.

35:59

So there were lots of, we think it's this, we think it's that we think it's the other thing,

36:02

um, to get it specifically diagnosed.

36:05

And then once we knew the gene mutation,

36:07

that's when we could test the kids. And it is,

36:09

it's, it's not like, um, some of the BRAC gene variations,

36:12

like if you have it, it's 100% if you don't have it 0%.

36:16

So my other two kids don't have it and can't pass it on.

36:18

So the young specific gene, very specific pass through kind of thing.

36:22

Yeah. So my youngest Alec will get it and he has a 50% chance of passing it on to each um,

36:27

child. It's too late to help my husband.

36:31

All the these cells are long dead but not too late to help.

36:35

Um, my son, that's the, yeah.

36:40

So it, it also when you learned of this and finally it did,

36:44

it changed not only your career trajectory because you made a decision about where to start to look for work and what they did not at first though,

36:55

which now that I've met a lot of people going blind now.

36:59

So denial is a big part of it.

37:01

More so for the person impacted than the family.

37:05

But we tried to run our lives like we were running our lives.

37:07

So I did not. So, I, so it must have been 13.

37:10

So it took us three years to figure out we were not handling it.

37:12

Well, this would be the red part of you. Yeah. So my job,

37:16

I, I probably traveled around the world 70 80% of the time.

37:20

My husband was an at home dad at the time.

37:22

The speed of decline was pretty dramatic for those couple of years.

37:26

And this is also why the youngest, the old, the older two were kind of off to college before it got bad.

37:31

The younger one got to see it up close in person.

37:33

So also not great for knowing it's going to happen to you,

37:37

I suppose. So we were only incrementally changing little things and it was just one night in 2016.

37:45

I don't remember what happened that day. Something happened that day and we sat down and looked at each other and said we are not handling this well,

37:53

well, and uh,

37:56

between each other, just each other. Yeah, it was after,

37:58

after dinner and we're like,

38:01

let's throw everything in the air, everything,

38:05

everything about our lives and figure out a new normal because otherwise we're not going to get through it.

38:10

So, that's, which was scary, I'm sure.

38:13

Yeah. And we knew some components.

38:16

We didn't know the whole thing. We knew I needed a smaller job.

38:18

We knew we needed a townhouse, not a house. We knew we needed to be somewhere where he could walk to things that we were like in an Atlanta suburb.

38:25

You couldn't go anywhere. I was at Red Hat.

38:28

Yeah. Even, um, headquarters were in Raleigh.

38:30

They weren't in Atlanta where I lived.

38:33

So I was always gone, let alone internationally.

38:36

Um, we needed to get him help. Um,

38:38

I needed to do more around the house. It was,

38:40

did you make a list? I don't remember if we made a list,

38:43

I think. Um, I guess we made that core list.

38:46

We must have because I know we started to think, what kind of job am I going to get?

38:50

How much smaller do we think it needs to be?

38:52

Where should it be? Yeah. Where should it be?

38:54

Was it driven at all by needing access to different doctors?

38:58

No. No, it was more the daily,

39:00

I mean, he was starting to feel trapped just,

39:02

you know, couldn't really drive. He was like, only taking right turns.

39:05

Can't see things in the stores to buy, can't do anything online.

39:08

It was more like he was starting to, I'm gone all the time,

39:11

only the youngest is there, but he's 1516 and he just felt he couldn't do anything after being very able bodied.

39:20

Right. Exactly. I can't.

39:22

And what the heck is going on. So, denial is now gone,

39:25

I guess for, for both of us we,

39:28

I took this smaller job that was higher ed tech,

39:31

mostly us oriented like the budget and team were talking 1/15 1 20th of what I was used to managing at Red Hat.

39:39

We got a townhouse, five minutes from the office.

39:42

We moved to a planned community, meaning it was one of the very first planned community.

39:46

So he could safely get on sidewalks and walk in tunnels to get to places.

39:51

I grew up in a planned community. So,

39:53

you know what I'm talking about, but like for, for a blind person,

39:57

I mean, perfect. No yard to take care of the townhouse was very simple.

40:02

I, yeah, and I could get back and forth to help him like within five minutes.

40:08

Um We made agreements. I would leave work at 6 p.m. Nothing I'd ever done in my life.

40:14

We should talk about work life balance. Yeah, we did hire somebody to help him several days a week.

40:19

I did start. I mean, we're, I know this is gonna sound horrible. But all the years I was working so hard,

40:23

like I, you know, I didn't do things like go to the grocery store.

40:26

I wasn't doing the family finances.

40:28

I wasn't doing any of that. That's a great segue into.

40:31

What did it teach you this whole and what has it taught you this entire?

40:37

That's a great question with your husband because it,

40:40

it started with, that might need a therapy session.

40:43

I can, I can, I can start because it started with we,

40:46

if we break it down, it was like, no, we're fine. We're just gonna continue what we're doing.

40:49

and it was like, we're not fine, but we don't know what fine looks like.

40:52

And then it's sort of like phase one of fine and then there'll be phase two of.

40:56

So we created the fine, but then that'll allowed him to be brave to come to Seattle.

41:00

Uh brave to let me take a bigger job again because we knew the home set up.

41:04

I, I was not gonna w ever work 100 hours a week again,

41:08

like all these sorts of things. So it kind of allowed me to take the tableau job,

41:12

but what it really taught me well, two things.

41:14

One is just a bad personality trait of mine.

41:17

I am not a patient person. I thought you referenced this.

41:21

Yes. It just, it's really un and there's,

41:23

I mean, I, I have been working hard at it ever since this,

41:25

especially this whole eyesight thing, but I am not like there's one day.

41:29

So because I'm not a CMO anymore and I'm trying to do more of the personal assistant stuff for him.

41:35

But, like, I had to drive him an hour to the dentist office,

41:38

sit there for an hour, an hour back. And I'm like,

41:40

I would rather be cleaning a toilet. Like,

41:43

I cannot spend three hours taking you to the dentist.

41:46

I can't, I can't do it. Just not in my DNA or if I read him things,

41:50

I'm skipping words. I'm just giving him the main point.

41:54

Like, or we, we like to play games at night,

41:56

but I have to be very patient while he tries to read the card or,

42:02

you know, to make his move.

42:05

So I'm like, so anyway, I work on it but I'm terrible at it.

42:10

And the other thing which is the blessing is that life is not about chasing titles and power and money.

42:18

It just isn't and enough money is enough money.

42:23

We live fine. I don't,

42:25

I don't need another CMO role to be validated.

42:28

But it would have taken me, I probably would have been a CEO somewhere you were definitely on the track of and I wasn't gonna slow down.

42:36

I feel like COVID taught us something of like time is really precious and short and you do not know in the blink of an eye when you may not be able to go do something or see someone or be someone like we all say live each day and then we don't,

42:50

we don't even the passing of trudy.

42:52

Right. We've talked about multiple times on this podcast that was a six weeks,

42:57

six weeks. I mean, it almost, um, it doesn't even not fathomable.

43:00

No. And a lot of us who were touched by either because we were part of her team or we just knew her and obviously,

43:07

of course, her family and, and those that knew her even more than we did.

43:11

We've tried to take lessons from that of this idea that really truly do live each day and really it isn't about money or titles.

43:19

We had a great guest, uh my good friend Colleen Coleman,

43:22

who is on a path to being a medium.

43:25

One of the things she says is nobody at the end of their life is talking about.

43:29

I wish I had had a better title or I wish I had more money they're talking about.

43:34

I wish I had more time to spend with the people I love or I wish I had,

43:38

you know, taken that trip to someplace or done something and it has nothing to do with sometimes what I think we get caught up in that hamster wheel trying to follow.

43:46

Uh And for you in this moment, that was a defining one to refocus energies from what you thought potentially your track was going to be.

43:56

That's right. If we say that it's not.

43:58

If we, we know you have stepped away,

44:00

I actually loved this because you referenced it in an article and it was talking about your Jackie 3.0 right now.

44:07

So the last couple of years you are not in CMO mode anymore.

44:12

And if you could essentially go back to Jackie 1.0 or 2.0.

44:19

And what I like to say is maybe that's pre CMO Jackie.

44:21

So 1.0 or CMO Jackie is 2.0 knowing what,

44:26

you know, now, what advice would you give 1.0 or 2.0 Jackie or it could be,

44:34

it could be wisdoms. It could be like, hey,

44:36

you know what? Really? Don't worry about that.

44:38

Exactly. Right. I genuinely thought I wasn't all that smart.

44:46

But why did you think that? I don't know.

44:49

It's ridiculous. But,

44:52

well, you are just so that, you know, thank you.

44:56

Ok. Now, um although I used to be smarter,

44:58

you know, as we, as we get older things get smaller and better write that down.

45:04

Um But I told myself that nobody could outwork me.

45:09

That was my, that was my mantra for many years.

45:12

Did that start? Like at the beginning of your career?

45:16

We're talking like age 12, age 12.

45:19

Did it come from? No, it was all internal,

45:22

no family competition. Nothing. It was just your thing,

45:25

my thing, no parental pressure,

45:27

no sibling pressure, just Jackie being Jackie.

45:31

And then I saw one of my Children do it. So I'm like, um so I,

45:36

and it's not a virtue to, to hold up and I wish I'd figured it out sooner.

45:41

I sort of got lucky. I figured it out relatively early.

45:44

So it didn't take me until I was 50 or anything. So,

45:47

I end up at the Boston consulting group with a three year old and a three month old.

45:52

And my husband working for the Air Force. I could not outwork these people.

45:57

Yeah. Nobody had,

45:59

nobody had Children. Most of them didn't have spouses.

46:03

right? Uh So you were in sort of exclusive territory.

46:07

So I'm like, I, so I had to play this mental game with myself of,

46:12

I'm not going to be the world's best consultant. I can't outwork them.

46:15

So I'm not going to be here till three in the morning. I have a family.

46:17

If this doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.

46:20

I can go get another job. So that helped me a lot.

46:24

You would say to that Jackie.

46:27

Now that right, like,

46:29

don't obsess trying to outwork somebody.

46:33

That's right. And you are smart and you are like,

46:35

how much more proof do you need? Just trust us?

46:40

You're, you're fine and, and the other and smart is smart enough.

46:45

We don't all have to be brilliant and we're all brilliant in different ways.

46:49

And like I shouldn't, this is where I was bad.

46:52

I was at Mits business school, obsessing about getting all A's in everything even though I had a child.

46:59

It did. Now, what was I trying to prove and while I was an undergrad I'm going in the Air Force 100%.

47:04

I'm gonna get a job in the Air force.

47:07

I was disappointed I was 0.05 away from Suma cum lad.

47:10

Why all I did was study,

47:12

all I did was study. I don't know how I found Eric.

47:16

But, well,

47:18

you, you are talking to somebody who did the same thing.

47:21

I focused a lot on, um,

47:23

straight A's in grades and not for kids listening.

47:26

It's not that grades don't matter because they do.

47:28

But nobody's gonna ask you if you a calculus in XYZ and in business school,

47:33

I was especially naive.

47:36

Like half the thing about business school is the connections and the relationships and how you work with people.

47:42

Is there anything that has surprised you about your life journey thus far,

47:47

either about yourself or something you encountered?

47:49

It could be the, the blindness diagnosis.

47:52

Yeah, that's definitely one. Not, not when you were on the,

47:56

had no idea, but we often say we aren't dying,

47:59

you know, we, yeah. So figure a different situation out.

48:02

Um, one thing I would say is I never expected to be a marketer.

48:06

Yeah, I was a pretty big geek back in the day.

48:10

I feel like you've mentioned that somewhere in,

48:13

like, you were not a market. No,

48:15

I didn't take one marketing class in business school.

48:18

I thought it was all fluff. I do remember while I was at um,

48:22

BC G and they're about to make me partner and it felt very weird because I'm like,

48:27

but I haven't found my thing, you know, when you're a partner with those firms you're selling your thing,

48:31

your passion, your expertise. And I'm like, I don't really have that,

48:35

you know, they had me doing a lot of it, architecture projects because I was pretty geeky.

48:41

And then, and that's what you build in the Air Force,

48:43

right? It was a, it was a software system.

48:46

Um I used commercial hardware but it like it took satellite feeds and pilot reports and kind of correlated all that and said this is the picture of the battlefield.

48:55

The picture in 1991 92 is a little different than the graphical was not that impressive.

49:04

But when Delta asked me to lead marketing after 911,

49:08

I thought they lost their mind. And then I get in there and I found my passion,

49:11

like I'm so grateful, grateful and it's been there ever since.

49:18

What do I do most about it as a marketer or being a marketer?

49:22

I love focusing on the customer and the customer experience and the purpose and mission of what your company is all about,

49:31

which maybe comes from the Air Force, but to not believe in brand and then to actually spend energy to uncover the soul of Delta Airlines and watch 80,000 employees respond to that was amazing to focus like to fundamentally believe that if you focus on the customer,

49:52

the revenue comes, I did have to have a,

49:54

I spent all this ridiculous analysis trying to prove that.

49:59

And I think I did, but then it did dawn on me that if you don't believe it,

50:03

you don't believe it. I used to call that um quantify the qualitative,

50:07

which is a hard thing to do because numbers talk and sometimes it's,

50:12

you cannot quantify the experience in a way that maybe is typical and you have to get creative on how you,

50:19

you have to get creative because at the airlines, you can't ask somebody if they'll pay for something,

50:22

you can't ask if you'll pay for leg room because you'll say yes and you won't.

50:25

So you have to do all this indirect weird quantifying of this is what it would mean if we did that.

50:31

But I think it was kind of wasted energy. Um And then I love the analytics of it like I had the Sky Miles program and then I got lucky in that over the years.

50:40

So this was 2002 marketing just become as you know,

50:44

far more analytical. So back then it kind of was a little bit,

50:47

a little bit. But yeah, maybe we had some data about but it was,

50:52

yeah, so yeah, I've loved everything about it.

50:55

Um I mean, it's always marketing being a CMO of course,

50:59

I run into this with my CMO collaborative and my executive coaching,

51:03

marketing leaders are often still trying to get respect,

51:06

trying to get their seat at the table. Uh It's annoying.

51:10

Yeah. Yeah. But you know, to be the executive that best understands the market and the customer and the purpose of the company and have that voice at the table is so important.

51:21

So, um I loved it now,

51:23

I love helping others do it, I guess. Yes.

51:25

So talk about a little bit before we go on to the next course,

51:29

talk about a little bit. Now some of the, the, the things that you're doing because uh they,

51:33

they are essentially, I feel like you're the guiding light on some of these,

51:38

some of these orgs that you're doing and the passion that you have with them.

51:40

Now, what is that bringing to you?

51:43

That's maybe different than, than what I used to be what the,

51:46

the CMO brings you. Um So first I have to say,

51:50

I don't know what percent but a large percentage is spending time doing what my husband wants to do.

51:56

So there, there is the RV, which I find mean because I have to drive it.

52:00

I have to dump it. I have to look up all the manual.

52:04

So there's that. So I do wanna make sure,

52:08

did you ever see the film RV? With Robin Williams?

52:11

No, but now I'm scared too based on,

52:13

I mean, Eric and I are like a bad comedy routine because he can't see and I'm not handy.

52:17

So it's, it's, um,

52:19

it's a great, it's very funny and it's about him,

52:23

um, essentially renting an RV to get across the country for a job interview and tricking his family into thinking they're going on a vacation when it really is.

52:32

But if, if you're ever in,

52:34

they wanna really see a funny movie about RV.

52:38

Uh, it's worth a rental, I would say. But yes,

52:41

Um so I'm on two public boards.

52:44

Uh Both companies that do things I very much care about,

52:47

which is important to me and longer story.

52:50

But being on a public board can be harder than people think.

52:53

Uh So one is talk space that does virtual um therapy.

52:58

So the whole mission of that company is access to therapy for all and to reduce the sig stigma and that we're very much on that track and it's great.

53:07

There's a recent deal with New York City where New York City is giving free therapy through talk space to all teenagers.

53:13

Oh, wow. It's so cool. That is really cool.

53:16

Yeah. Um And the second one is Iridium,

53:18

which people may not have heard of, but it's the only low earth um satellite constellation and I believe it gives a fundamental um purpose to the planet.

53:27

So it's the only um system that can safely and no matter kind of storms or where they are track ships and planes and animals and cargo and anything like,

53:40

keep the lights on. Yeah, keep the lights on.

53:42

Um, and provide, you know, phone service where,

53:46

where it's not available, those sorts of things. And then I'm on the board um,

53:50

of a nonprofit called Plan International that does girl education and empowerment programs around the world in developing countries.

54:00

Really powerful. My son and I, that youngest one,

54:03

we went on a trip together to Senegal, probably changed our lives,

54:06

changed our relationship. I would say,

54:09

well, logistically the trip was very, very difficult.

54:12

I don't know if I could do it again and he got food poisoning.

54:16

Really. Something, something terrible.

54:19

Uh, and this program that we were helping to sponsor specifically in Senegal,

54:24

like a lot of it was going on during COVID. But even to see the impact on these girls and their self-confidence and to understand that they don't have to get married at 14 that they can graduate school to give them.

54:39

Um, they didn't know anything about how you get pregnant.

54:42

No hygiene, uh, supplies,

54:45

no ability to use a separate toilet at school.

54:49

So to see these, um, programs so positively impact these girls lives in just a couple of years in these rural,

54:57

rural communities. Um,

54:59

was mind blowing sort of life transforming. Yeah.

55:02

Is there a particular draw to organizations like that,

55:05

that you, that, uh, that reach out to you and something that you kind of have a checklist for,

55:10

of where you want to speak? To what happens. Yeah. Um Yeah,

55:14

so on. So I have this kind of what's a Jackie success list that I redid a couple of years ago before I left Tableau realizing I'd kind of completed my other list.

55:23

And one of those was elevating girls and equality around the world.

55:28

I didn't know how but so that um CMO at Delta who's now one of my best friends,

55:34

um she brought me into this plan International.

55:37

So it was easy to say yes to that.

55:40

The public boards, the calls come in and you just have to pay attention to.

55:44

Um And the talk space one happened right about when my son was having issues.

55:49

Did you discover it? Did they uh recruiter called me?

55:52

Oh, interesting. This recruiter somebody I know well,

55:54

and he's like Jackie, you're gonna,

55:57

you're gonna want to talk to these people and then foundation fighting blindness is just an obvious one.

56:01

And then on my list also is to try to help find the cure that would help my son.

56:07

So, Eric and I just recently are helping to fund a specific project that is on the gene um where his mutation is that I won't bore you with the details,

56:18

but it's very promising. I could cure it or treat it,

56:22

could help treat, yeah, could help treat it.

56:24

I mean, what we want to try to find in gene therapy is something that tells the DNA don't follow that instruction.

56:31

Stop it, but they need to do,

56:33

they need to do that in mice. First mice genes and eyes are not the same.

56:39

So they kind of have to do some weird thing where they humanized mice in order to test it.

56:45

So, yes, fair enough. Yeah. Um,

56:48

it's kind of a good segue into the question. Is is there something that you really want to do or see yourself doing?

56:55

But you've not yet done. It could be professional,

56:58

could be personal. Um,

57:02

I have 31 is what we just said.

57:05

Help find a cure for Alec.

57:08

Um, two don't laugh.

57:10

But as a family, we want to open an in person gym and a tap room that's run by the family somewhere probably on the east coast.

57:18

That sounds fabulous. So, are you kidding?

57:20

You go work out and then you can meet at the pub.

57:23

So we just, this as a family has kind of been swirling around.

57:26

My youngest is probably the most serious about it.

57:28

My oldest is a fitness instructor. Um,

57:32

my youngest is a restaurant manager. The middle one is a rural vet.

57:37

So we're not sure how that, how that could work out.

57:40

She's just hoping maybe to be live in the area because we're all,

57:42

we're all very spread out right now around the country and we all have a strong desire to be closer to each other,

57:49

not literally right but closer.

57:52

Like it takes a big act right now.

57:54

To get to get off like a,

57:57

like a grand baby. Got us all together for a long weekend,

58:00

but it's hard. Um So that's the second one and the third one,

58:05

I want to find a way to help people more at scale that I haven't done yet.

58:11

So, meaning so I've got the CMO collaborative that I've done and I coach about 10 CMO S but it's very 1 to 1.

58:18

Like there's gotta be a way I can help more people.

58:22

And I don't know if it's a speaking thing or the book thing sounds weird to me because all sorts of people write books and I don't really,

58:28

I don't know. So I don't know what it is.

58:31

Um But it's potentially on your vision board,

58:34

vision board, helping more people how to take the guidance and the help.

58:40

You're already providing 1 to 1 and how do I do one to many?

58:44

One to many? Yeah. Good goals,

58:47

vision board, vision board you put on the vision board.

58:50

So we've talked about it uh that our tagline here on the podcast is navigating life.

58:56

One story at a time. Is there one key or go to thing that has helped you navigate your life story up to this point.

59:04

It could be a mantra, could be a ritual,

59:06

could be practice. It has to be the Maya Angelo quote always.

59:11

Oh Yeah. So in your worst moments,

59:13

you pull that up in your best moments and then again,

59:16

it's kind of like the positive flywheel it happens.

59:18

You never know what people remember about me are often like these little moments.

59:22

That's right. And you don't know when they're gonna happen.

59:24

No, you don't. So I need to be concentrating on that all the time present in the moment.

59:30

Yeah. Yeah. Be in the moment. I've been trying to be in the moment for a long time.

59:34

Uh It's gotten harder over the years with all this digital stuff,

59:36

you know, and to turn it off too.

59:39

So everybody expects responses straight away.

59:43

So I usually like to wrap this up with our C 17 questionnaire.

59:47

OK. So if you happen to have ever,

59:51

were you familiar with inside the actors studio or James Li?

59:54

So what he used to do it was a show that was on Bravo years ago and he used to have a whole bunch of a list actors come on and he would read a particular questionnaire that was modeled after a French journalist called Bern Bernard PBA.

1:00:09

And the idea is that you answer the question first thing that comes to mind.

1:00:12

We don't, we don't talk about conversation.

1:00:15

We don't elaborate on it. First thing that comes to mind and it is,

1:00:18

it's a modified version. It's our version.

1:00:20

That's where it comes from. So what is your favorite lucky number?

1:00:25

And if no lucky number, what is your favorite or lucky item object or 12,

1:00:32

what is your favorite word or expression.

1:00:36

Be kind. Be brave be you. I guess.

1:00:38

I don't. That's no, that's it.

1:00:42

What or where is your happy place?

1:00:46

Uh, we have a house in the woods in New Hampshire next door to where my parents retired.

1:00:53

What is the best life experience you have had to date?

1:00:59

I know it's recency bias but becoming a grandparent was pretty cool.

1:01:03

That's ok. I've had, uh, someone else,

1:01:05

uh, share that grandparents grandparent is,

1:01:08

is the biological. What is the,

1:01:11

we might know the instruments. What is the hardest life test you have had to face to date?

1:01:17

You probably think it was the blindness but it was being scared,

1:01:21

Alec was gonna take his life. Yes.

1:01:25

What or who is your greatest inspiration?

1:01:29

I have to say my husband, what is the best piece of life advice or wisdom you have ever received?

1:01:40

I'm stuck on that one. Isn't that terrible? We can come to that.

1:01:44

We can come back to one. What is the best piece of life advice or wisdom you have given or shared?

1:01:50

I think it's that you can have it all but not at the same time.

1:01:56

And if there was one place in the world you could travel to tomorrow,

1:02:00

where would it be? And why? My favorite place in the world that I've been is Zermat where the Matterhorn is.

1:02:08

No cars go there. Switzerland,

1:02:10

Switzerland. Ok. Um,

1:02:12

so I would be myself there. It's just it's kind of like a back in time,

1:02:16

the no cars friendly,

1:02:19

sort of like time capsule, disconnect.

1:02:25

Any, any uh life advice or wisdom that comes to mind that you received from someone.

1:02:30

If not, we can take a pass, I might take a pass.

1:02:32

It's terrible. Let's take a pass. It's ok. Anything you would like to add or share as we close out?

1:02:40

No. Thank you for having me. Thanks so much fun.

1:02:42

I enjoy. Thanks for listening to me. Well,

1:02:44

thank you for being you your authentic self and for your leadership as I got to see,

1:02:49

but also just being a very cool human being.

1:02:52

I wish it could have been longer. Same Pablo,

1:02:54

you know, circumstances move on to next.

1:02:59

Thank you so much. Thanks Courtney. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Life Notes from chair 17.

1:03:10

Remember to follow and subscribe. So you never miss an episode.

1:03:13

We'll see you next time.