0:13

Hi, and welcome to Les

0:13

Bons Mots, a podcast about

0:16

language learning by ACA, a

0:16

language training school based

0:20

in Quebec, Canada. This podcast

0:20

is designed for people who are

0:24

learning languages, and each

0:24

week we'll cover a different

0:27

topic connected to language

0:27

learning. Thanks for joining us

0:30

today. I'm your host Britta

0:30

Poschenrieder. I've been

0:33

teaching English as a second

0:33

language for over 10 years and

0:36

I'm learning French and Spanish

0:36

language is my passion. This

0:40

week, I'm joined by my guest

0:40

host and colleague, Kelsey

0:43

Ulrich-Verslyken. Kelsey fell in

0:43

love with teaching English in

0:47

2013 when she moved to South

0:47

Korea to teach English as a

0:51

foreign language. Since then,

0:51

she's worked as a teacher, a

0:55

curriculum developer and editor

0:55

for EFL textbooks and an

1:00

assistant professor of English

1:00

at a university in Seoul. She

1:04

completed her MA in Applied

1:04

Linguistics and is currently

1:07

working with ACA and pursuing

1:07

her PhD in applied language and

1:11

discourse studies at Carleton

1:11

University in Ottawa, we're

1:15

going to be talking about making

1:15

mistakes and errors, a topic

1:18

that is frequently a key concern

1:18

for language learners because

1:21

many of us want to express

1:21

ourselves accurately in our

1:24

second language. If you're

1:24

learning a language, find out

1:28

why your teacher is correcting

1:28

some things differently than

1:31

others, and learn how to take

1:31

advantage of your mistakes

1:34

instead of worrying about them.

1:34

If you're a language teacher,

1:38

enjoy this overview of when and

1:38

how we can use different types

1:41

of error correction to

1:41

effectively help learners to

1:44

improve. Let's get started.

1:44

Kelsey, welcome to Les Bons

1:52

Mots. I'm thrilled to have you

1:52

join me here to discuss

1:55

mistakes, errors and error

1:55

correction because these topics

1:59

are connected to your doctoral

1:59

work, aren't they?

2:02

Yes, absolutely. Thank

2:02

you so much for having me.

2:05

Britta. It's a pleasure to talk

2:05

with you today. And yeah, as

2:08

you've said, my doctoral work is

2:08

looking at the relationship

2:13

between corrective feedback

2:13

specifically oral corrective

2:17

feedback, but corrective

2:17

feedback and willingness to

2:21

communicate. So, you know, how

2:21

can we as teachers correct so

2:25

that our students are happy and

2:25

willing and eager to produce

2:30

more English?

2:32

Maybe we can start by

2:32

defining the difference between

2:35

mistakes and errors? Because

2:35

when we talk about language

2:39

learning, those two aren't

2:39

exactly the same thing. They're

2:43

not interchangeable terms. Could

2:43

you explain what the difference

2:47

is between a mistake and an

2:47

error?

2:50

Yeah, of course. So like

2:50

you said, I think a lot of

2:52

people think of those two things

2:52

as the same. But in language

2:57

learning, they're very different

2:57

things. So when we think about

3:02

an error that someone makes in a

3:02

language and the target

3:06

language, that's usually

3:06

something they say that is

3:12

incorrect. But it's incorrect,

3:12

because they don't know the

3:16

correct form. yet. It's

3:16

something that they haven't

3:20

really learned how to express or

3:20

something that they don't have

3:23

that background knowledge to

3:23

really produce the utterance

3:27

correctly. So an error is

3:27

something we make because we

3:31

just don't know what the correct

3:31

target form should be. So for

3:36

example, you might get a learner

3:36

who says something like I have

3:41

worked yesterday, right? So

3:41

you're piecing together that

3:45

perfect tense, and you're

3:45

thinking, Oh, I can use it like

3:48

this. I have worked yesterday.

3:48

But as language teachers, we

3:51

know that in that circumstance,

3:51

that is a simple past usage. So

3:56

it should be I worked yesterday.

3:56

So something like that would be

4:01

an error, because they haven't

4:01

quite learned how to use that

4:05

perfect tense yet. So they're

4:05

making an error in the language.

4:10

And then when we talk about

4:10

mistakes, mistakes, are things a

4:15

little bit more temporary. So we

4:15

both speak English as our first

4:20

language. Would you say you make

4:20

a lot of mistakes in English?

4:25

I definitely make a lot

4:25

of mistakes in English. Because

4:29

of the magic of editing. Our

4:29

audience won't hear it. But I

4:33

had to restart about three

4:33

sentences in the introduction

4:37

because I misspoke. Sometimes we

4:37

misspeak or we're so focused on

4:42

the content of what we're saying

4:42

that we make a mistake with a

4:45

verb ending or we choose a word

4:45

that's a little bit strange. Any

4:49

of those things, right?

4:51

Yeah, absolutely. So

4:51

mistakes are something that are

4:54

really common for everybody,

4:54

even if you're the native

4:58

speaker of a language sometimes

4:58

times your brain and your mouth

5:02

just don't always communicate

5:02

that well. And what you say is

5:08

not necessarily correct, even

5:08

though you know very well, the

5:12

exact correct form. So mistakes

5:12

are something that are just

5:17

temporary problems that you make

5:17

by accident. It's a mistake in

5:23

the language. So let's talk

5:23

about an advanced learner. For

5:27

example, an advanced learner

5:27

might say something like, I

5:32

drive to Montreal last weekend.

5:32

Now an advanced learner is going

5:37

to know the past tense

5:37

conjugation of drive. But you

5:42

don't always get that quick

5:42

recall that we want. So they

5:46

make the mistake and they didn't

5:46

conjugate it properly, even

5:49

though they know very well that

5:49

it's, I drove to Montreal last

5:53

weekend.

5:54

Thank you so much for

5:54

breaking that down for us. I

5:57

always think of it in terms of

5:57

maybe a sports analogy or

6:00

something like this as well.

6:00

Even if we haven't tried playing

6:04

golf by ourselves. We've all

6:04

seen movies or tv shows where

6:07

somebody is learning to golf,

6:07

and the first time they try

6:10

golfing, and they swing the

6:10

club, what happens?

6:14

Probably they miss. At

6:14

least I would miss

6:18

I know that I would miss

6:18

for sure. And it's

6:21

understandable because the first

6:21

time we've tried a new sport,

6:24

for example, we don't know the

6:24

correct technique. We're not

6:28

sure how to hold the golf club.

6:28

We're not sure where we're

6:31

supposed to look. And so we have

6:31

an error. It comes from a lack

6:35

of knowledge.

6:36

Yeah,

6:37

We don't know how to

6:37

golf yet, because it's brand new

6:39

for us. But if we think about a

6:39

mistake, if I'm running along

6:43

the sidewalk, and I trip, it's

6:43

not because I don't know how to

6:47

run.

6:48

Mm hmm.

6:49

Right? It's maybe

6:49

because I'm out for my jog. And

6:52

I'm listening to my good music,

6:52

and I'm dance-running, and I

6:56

miss the fact that the sidewalk

6:56

is uneven, and I can trip and

6:59

fall. So right there. It's not a

6:59

lack of knowledge. It's just

7:04

something that happens because

7:04

of maybe a lack of attention or

7:07

because of something else that's

7:07

going on, perhaps we're tired or

7:10

something like this,right?

7:12

Absolutely. So then when

7:12

you think about like error

7:14

correction. There's some

7:14

different opinions like do you

7:18

correct mistakes? Do you correct

7:18

errors? And I think that really

7:22

ties in with what we want to

7:22

talk about today. Just in terms

7:25

of Okay, well, what does it

7:25

mean, when you make a mistake?

7:28

What does it mean, when you make

7:28

an error? And how and when

7:31

should we correct mistakes, how

7:31

and when, or should we correct

7:35

errors? So it's very interesting.

7:37

Mm hmm. And many of us

7:37

have noticed, when we're

7:41

learning a second language, that

7:41

the people around us, don't

7:45

correct us. So when we get into

7:45

a language class, we're hungry

7:50

for correction, we tell the

7:50

teacher Hey, correct me. I know,

7:54

my students tell me this all the

7:54

time. And I imagine you have the

7:57

same experience. They say, Oh, I

7:57

want you to correct me.

8:01

Uh huh.

8:02

And it's something I've

8:02

been guilty of myself, when I'm

8:05

taking French classes, I really

8:05

want that correction. And it's

8:10

natural that we want to stop

8:10

making mistakes, or errors,

8:14

whatever. We just don't we just

8:14

want to speak correctly. And as

8:17

teachers, we have different ways

8:17

in which we can offer that

8:22

correction. Maybe we should

8:22

start by looking at a couple of

8:26

the techniques that people might

8:26

experience when they're in a

8:29

language class.

8:31

Yeah, certainly. So

8:31

we're talking about in this

8:34

language classroom, and people,

8:34

they don't want to make

8:36

mistakes, they don't want to

8:36

make errors. Well, the types of

8:40

error correction and correction

8:40

that a teacher would need to use

8:44

when looking at a mistake versus

8:44

looking at an error is a little

8:48

bit different as well, because

8:48

like we've said, a mistake is

8:51

just temporary, it's just kind

8:51

of a disconnect between what

8:54

your brain knows is correct, and

8:54

what your mouth actually says.

8:58

So, when we're correcting

8:58

mistakes, it's fairly easy

9:02

because the student really

9:02

already knows the target form.

9:06

And you're just really looking

9:06

to make sure they notice that

9:09

they've made that little tiny

9:09

mistake, and that they correct

9:13

themselves. So for things like

9:13

mistakes, we really use what's

9:18

known as a lot of implicit

9:18

correction. So implicit, it's

9:23

got that same prefix as implied,

9:23

so we can kind of connect that

9:29

an implicit correction isn't

9:29

just telling the student No,

9:35

that's incorrect. It's really

9:35

just hinting to the student

9:40

implying to the student that,

9:40

hey, you made a little mistake

9:44

there. So something like a

9:44

recast when someone says

9:50

something that is incorrect, the

9:50

teacher will often recast with

9:56

the correct form. And then

9:56

because it's something like a

9:59

mistake, the student would

9:59

ideally notice that the teachers

10:03

utterance is different from the

10:03

student's utterance and then

10:07

adjust their output accordingly.

10:07

So for example, we might say,

10:13

last weekend, we go to the shop.

10:16

Ooh,

10:16

but

10:19

but that doesn't sound right.

10:21

Something's a little

10:21

wrong there. Exactly. So the

10:24

teacher could say, maybe last

10:24

weekend, we went to the shop.

10:30

And that would be a recast,

10:30

right? The teacher is saying the

10:34

correct form. But it's to get

10:34

that student to notice, oh, wait

10:38

a second, my output and the

10:38

teachers output was different.

10:42

Let me readjust what I've just

10:42

said. And there's there's a few

10:47

different ways to recast things,

10:47

you could do it in that direct

10:50

fashion by giving them the

10:50

correct form. Oh, last weekend,

10:53

we went to the shop. Oh, yeah.

10:53

Yeah, yeah. Last weekend, we

10:56

went to the shop, we went

10:56

shopping. Or you could also just

11:00

kind of prompt the student to

11:00

think about what they've just

11:05

said. So say I'm a student. And

11:05

I'll say it last weekend we go

11:09

to shop. How would you prompt me

11:09

to fix that?

11:13

Last weekend, we go to

11:13

the shop.

11:16

Right? Exactly. So

11:16

you're not telling me what the

11:20

correct form is, but you're

11:20

implying that go is incorrect,

11:26

which is prompting me to fix it.

11:26

So we've got like implicit

11:30

corrections, which are just

11:30

those implied corrections, those

11:35

implications that something

11:35

we've said is incorrect. And

11:39

then on the other side of that,

11:39

we have what's called explicit

11:42

corrections. And again, if we

11:42

want to think about prefixes,

11:45

explicit explain, we were really

11:45

talking about specifics of what

11:52

went wrong. When we give

11:52

explicit corrections. These are

11:55

clear signals that an error has

11:55

been made or a mistake. And we

12:00

want to give specific explicit

12:00

feedback to the student about

12:05

what was the error and why is it

12:05

an error. So an example of this

12:11

would be like metalinguistic

12:11

correction. Metalinguistic

12:15

correction is when you're

12:15

talking about the language

12:17

itself, where you're really

12:17

explaining, this is the form we

12:22

want. This is the form you used,

12:22

but try to do it in this form.

12:26

So I found a lot of our students

12:26

at ACA really connect well, with

12:30

this meta linguistic correction,

12:30

because they're so good at

12:33

grammar, their grammar is

12:33

probably better than mine for

12:37

some students. But a lot of that

12:37

explicit correction, that meta

12:41

linguistic correction would say

12:41

something like, Okay, last

12:45

weekend we goed to shop, Goed, that's not quite the

12:47

correct past tense. Maybe in a

12:52

meta linguistic feedback, you

12:52

might tell the student Oh, be

12:56

careful. Go is an irregular past

12:56

tense verb. Remember, we need to

13:01

conjugate it differently,

13:01

because it's irregular. So how

13:05

would you say it in the past

13:05

tense as an irregular, past

13:08

tense verb? And then hopefully,

13:08

that would cue them to

13:11

realizing, oh, yes, that's

13:11

right. We learned this. It's

13:15

whent, we went shopping, we went

13:15

to the store. So we've got

13:19

implicit and explicit just

13:19

depending on how you describe

13:23

the error, how you focus on the

13:23

error or mistake,

13:27

I think it's worth maybe

13:27

taking a moment to look at

13:30

implicit correction and the

13:30

method that you mentioned

13:32

recast, because I know in my own

13:32

teaching practice, this is

13:36

something that I use frequently.

13:36

And I know that I'm not alone,

13:41

many, many teachers use this.

13:41

It's a very popular form of

13:45

feedback. And I wonder why that

13:45

is? Why is recast so popular? Is

13:51

it because it's the most

13:51

effective form of feedback?

13:55

Effectiveness is a

13:55

really good question. So you're

13:58

right. recasts have been shown

13:58

to be the most popular form of

14:04

teacher feedback. And that

14:04

popularity of teacher feedback

14:07

has varied from classroom to

14:07

classroom because of course,

14:11

like teachers are people,

14:11

teachers all teach in a

14:14

different way. They all give

14:14

feedback in a different way. So

14:18

from the studies I've read, for

14:18

example, on the lower end of the

14:22

spectrum, teachers would maybe

14:22

use 30% recast. Now, that's

14:28

still a majority, when we

14:28

consider there's about six to 10

14:31

types of feedback that teachers

14:31

can use. 30% is quite a large

14:36

percentage. But there was this

14:36

one study in South Korea by a

14:41

researcher named Shi and he

14:41

found that the teachers he was

14:45

studying used recasts 83% of the

14:45

time, which is just insane.

14:52

That's a huge chunk of the

14:52

feedback given being in the form

14:56

of recast, so you're right like

14:56

most teachers tend to use

15:00

recast. So when we look at the

15:00

question of why why would

15:03

teachers tend to give recast, we

15:03

can go back to that example that

15:07

we were using where the goed

15:07

versus went and how the teacher

15:12

rephrased using the correct form

15:12

recasted the utterance using

15:16

last weekend we went shopping,

15:16

or the teacher was able to just

15:20

prompt for correction by saying,

15:20

Oh, we goed? And these are much

15:26

nicer ways to give feedback than

15:26

some of the other methods of

15:31

feedback that a teacher might

15:31

use. I think it's because the

15:35

student doesn't necessarily need

15:35

to know the names of the grammar

15:39

like they would in

15:39

metalinguistic feedback, the

15:42

student can just be prompted to

15:42

notice that form. And you're not

15:48

really giving that explicit

15:48

correction. So it's a little bit

15:51

softer, it's a little bit nicer,

15:51

it tends to keep the

15:55

conversation going a little bit

15:55

more, because it encourages the

15:59

student to reframe their output

15:59

and keep talking. Whereas with

16:05

something like meta linguistic

16:05

feedback, you're really putting

16:08

a stop to that conversation to

16:08

explain the grammar behind that

16:12

feedback. But with a recast, you

16:12

can recast it and then the

16:16

student is kind of invited to

16:16

keep going. So it's a much more

16:20

conversational form of feedback.

16:20

It's a little less intrusive,

16:25

it's a little bit less teacher

16:25

talk. And it's much more this

16:30

idea of co-constructing of

16:30

meaning where the teacher is

16:33

really helping and supporting

16:33

the student produce the correct

16:37

utterance. So pretty much that's

16:37

what researchers are saying is

16:40

we use mostly recast probably

16:40

because we're human. And we want

16:45

to talk and we want to help you

16:45

talk and we're going to talk

16:49

together, and I'm just going to

16:49

slightly adjust the little

16:52

things you say, as we talk.

16:55

It's definitely a more

16:55

subtle form of feedback, for

16:59

sure. And perhaps that's the

16:59

drawback of recast, is, at times

17:04

maybe it just passes unnoticed,

17:04

the student might not notice

17:08

that what we say is different.

17:08

They might just think, Oh, my

17:13

teacher agrees with me. Yeah,

17:13

yeah. Mm hmm.

17:15

Yeah, certainly. And

17:15

noticing has really been

17:19

pinpointed as that first step to

17:19

reframing and producing the

17:25

correct utterance when a learner

17:25

makes a mistake, the teacher can

17:29

correct and correct and correct.

17:29

But if the student doesn't

17:32

notice the correction, then

17:32

perhaps they're not actually

17:36

going to use that correction and

17:36

produce the correct answer. And

17:40

so you're absolutely correct.

17:40

It's kind of that double edged

17:42

sword, where on the one hand,

17:42

it's nicer. But is it too nice,

17:48

where we're not really helping

17:48

that student notice the

17:50

mistakes? It's good question.

17:53

Earlier, you alluded to

17:53

the fact that it's difficult to

17:56

say which kind of feedback is

17:56

the most effective? Huh, I got

18:02

the sense that this is due to

18:02

conflicting research. What do we

18:07

know about feedback about the

18:07

different types of feedback? And

18:12

how effective it is or isn't?

18:15

Well, you're right,

18:15

there really is a lot of

18:18

different research that says a

18:18

lot of different things about

18:22

the effect of different types of

18:22

feedback. I think in that

18:28

regard, it's kind of hard to

18:28

really say, what is the most

18:34

effective or what's the least

18:34

effective? And I think there's a

18:37

lot of elements to think about

18:37

when we think about that,

18:39

because I think a lot of people,

18:39

and especially people first

18:43

learning about corrective

18:43

feedback, they want to have a

18:46

solution. They want to say,

18:46

Okay, I'm a teacher, I want my

18:49

students to succeed. If I do

18:49

meta linguistic feedback, will

18:55

my students succeed, and if so,

18:55

now, I'm going to give more meta

18:59

linguistic feedback than I've

18:59

ever given before. And I think

19:02

as teachers, we kind of want a

19:02

solution in this regard. Now,

19:07

unfortunately, there's a lot of

19:07

different factors in play where

19:11

that solution isn't going to be

19:11

a one size fits all solution.

19:17

And I don't think we're really

19:17

ever going to see evidence where

19:19

it says, alright, teachers, it's

19:19

time to only use recasts from

19:23

now on out, just forget the rest

19:23

of the types of feedback. And

19:27

the reason for that is, you

19:27

know, I'd mentioned before,

19:30

like, Oh, we can't forget,

19:30

teachers are human. Teachers are

19:32

human, students are human. When

19:32

we're thinking about types of

19:37

feedback and how our brain

19:37

works. We have to think one as

19:42

the teacher, what does the

19:42

teachers gut reaction say when

19:46

they are conducting a class when

19:46

they're giving feedback? I don't

19:50

think there's any teacher that

19:50

only uses one type of feedback

19:53

because I think that as humans,

19:53

we want to co-construct that

19:59

meaning ,we want to keep the

19:59

conversation going and we want

20:01

to really support our students.

20:01

So we've got that one side where

20:06

there's these differences in how

20:06

the teachers use feedback. And

20:10

then of course, we've got the

20:10

other side of the classroom,

20:12

which is our students. Different

20:12

students will notice different

20:16

types of feedback, more or less

20:16

than other students. How

20:20

students receive feedback is

20:20

very much a personal experience.

20:25

And I know some students,

20:25

especially some students that

20:27

I've seen at ACA are pretty in

20:27

tune with their own relationship

20:32

with feedback. I've had certain

20:32

students say, Hey, can you tell

20:36

me the grammar behind so like,

20:36

obviously, they know like, I get

20:40

meta linguistic feedback. I like

20:40

that that works for me, as a

20:44

student and as a learner.Not all

20:44

learners are really as in tune

20:49

with what feedback works for

20:49

them. So it's a good question,

20:53

which is the most effective?

20:53

Unfortunately, there's not a

20:57

single answer to that. But I

20:57

also think that makes it a

21:01

little bit more interesting in

21:01

terms of like, what we're doing

21:03

and, and talking about it, to

21:03

get people to think about, okay,

21:08

as a teacher, what type of

21:08

feedback do I use and why? And

21:13

then to think about ourselves as

21:13

language learners. What type of

21:16

feedback do I notice? Right?

21:16

What type of feedback am I

21:20

recognizing that my teacher is

21:20

making? So maybe maybe not

21:24

talking about effect to see in

21:24

terms of our you know, recasts

21:29

are 92% effective? That's not

21:29

real statistics, don't quote

21:32

that. But instead of talking

21:32

about these ideas, as

21:37

correction, x is y percent

21:37

effective? Thinking about it in

21:41

terms of Okay, this is my

21:41

toolbox. When can I use what

21:46

types of tools?

21:48

In preparation for our

21:48

episode, you were kind enough to

21:52

share a few articles with me.

21:52

And I'll include the names and

21:55

authors of those articles in our

21:55

show notes in case anyone else

21:59

is interested in really diving

21:59

deeply into the linguistic side

22:03

of feedback and looking at some

22:03

of these studies. But as you

22:08

mentioned, it really depends on

22:08

the individual, what is their

22:12

context? What is their age? What

22:12

is their knowledge of grammar,

22:15

what is their personality? You

22:15

mentioned, you know, perhaps

22:18

some people crave metalinguistic

22:18

feedback, they're a little bit

22:21

more analytical, and they have a

22:21

strong grammatical knowledge.

22:24

Other people don't know the

22:24

names of the verb tenses don't

22:27

want to know the names of the

22:27

verb tenses, they just want to

22:29

be able to talk and get on with

22:29

their lives and speak well. So

22:33

we do have to have, as you

22:33

mentioned, a really varied sort

22:36

of toolbox. And the article by

22:36

the researcher Nassaji that you

22:41

sent me, something that was

22:41

really interesting as well is

22:45

that we have to remember that

22:45

feedback is a whole process.

22:49

Certainly,

22:50

First, we have to notice

22:50

the feedback as a learner. And

22:54

then we have to apply it. The

22:54

linguistic term is uptake, but

22:58

we have to be able to apply it

22:58

and then not just in that

23:02

moment, but eventually we have

23:02

to acquire it. So there's sort

23:05

of three steps and giving one

23:05

piece of feedback doesn't mean

23:10

we're going to get all the way

23:10

from noticing it to perfect

23:13

acquisition in one correction. I

23:13

mean, amazing if that happens,

23:18

but

23:19

yeah, Nassaji, he's a

23:19

really cool researcher. He's

23:21

based out of British Columbia.

23:21

So go Canada, one of our

23:25

homegrown Canadian corrective

23:25

feedback researchers. But you're

23:29

right, there are all of these

23:29

steps to the feedback and

23:33

acquisition process related to

23:33

feedback. And all of these steps

23:38

are kind of a, a yes or no

23:38

scenario. And if a learner ends

23:44

up not taking that next step,

23:44

then that's just at the step

23:47

they're at. Right? It doesn't

23:47

mean acquisition isn't possible,

23:50

it just means that we need to

23:50

keep working on that form. So

23:54

something like a mistake that

23:54

someone makes, while they're

23:58

pretty primed to notice the

23:58

feedback already, because

24:02

they've already learned the

24:02

correct grammar form, they are

24:05

probably going to be able to

24:05

uptake or apply that feedback

24:09

immediately. But maybe they

24:09

haven't quite reached the

24:13

acquisition stage where

24:13

producing the correct form is

24:17

automatic. It's something that

24:17

they know how to do really just

24:21

quickly and well. So obviously,

24:21

someone who's making a mistake

24:25

is somewhere between that uptake

24:25

and acquisition phase, where

24:29

they notice the correct form.

24:29

They can apply it immediately,

24:33

but it hasn't quite sunk in as

24:33

this immediate recall where they

24:38

need to then produce that form

24:38

correctly in the future. For

24:42

things like errors, they're a

24:42

little bit further back in that

24:46

acquisitional process. They've

24:46

made the mistake, the teacher

24:50

pinpoints the error. Maybe they

24:50

notice that it was an error, and

24:54

maybe they don't. If they notice

24:54

it's an error, then maybe they

24:58

uptake that Immediately, and

24:58

they reproduce the correct form

25:02

immediately. And maybe they

25:02

don't, right?

25:05

And I think to go back

25:05

to something you were mentioning

25:08

earlier as well, you spoke

25:08

about, for example, recast

25:13

allowing the flow of the

25:13

conversation to continue types

25:17

of correction that we use as

25:17

teachers depends on the goal of

25:22

the activity.

25:23

Absolutely.

25:24

Right. So when I'm

25:24

teaching something that's new to

25:28

my students, and we're in a very

25:28

controlled part of the lesson,

25:33

usually one of the first

25:33

activities that they're doing, I

25:37

may be much more picky and

25:37

correct explicitly in that

25:41

moment, whatever errors they're

25:41

making, because this is an

25:45

accuracy focused activity.

25:47

Yes,

25:48

But there's other points

25:48

in the lesson where we're

25:50

focused more on fluency. And I

25:50

don't want to interrupt with a

25:54

big meta linguistic correction,

25:54

that's going to stop the flow

25:59

for that student.

26:01

Absolutely. Our

26:01

researcher Nassaji, they

26:04

actually have a pretty good

26:04

article about this as well, that

26:07

came out in 2016. And it was

26:07

looking at focus-on-form

26:12

feedback. So just as you're

26:12

saying, in the classroom, as

26:17

we're creating activities and

26:17

tasks that we think will benefit

26:22

our students, sometimes those

26:22

tasks are focus-on-form tasks.

26:27

They are explicit tasks that are

26:27

teaching and practicing some

26:32

kind of grammar form. And in

26:32

that time, you know, there's

26:36

research that says that students

26:36

are more primed for feedback,

26:40

because they're really expecting

26:40

feedback during these

26:43

focus-on-form tasks. And that

26:43

feedback can be metalinguistic

26:47

feedback, it can be explicit, it

26:47

can be implicit, but students

26:51

are really already kind of in

26:51

tune with accepting feedback,

26:56

noticing feedback and uptaking

26:56

that feedback. But just like you

27:00

said, there's other activities

27:00

we do in our class that are more

27:03

communicative, fluency-based

27:03

activities, where the goal of

27:07

the activity isn't accuracy,

27:07

it's self expression, and it's

27:12

getting a feel for the language

27:12

and its output. And in this

27:16

case, students aren't

27:16

necessarily as primed for

27:20

feedback as they are in that

27:20

focus on form task, just because

27:24

the focus of the activity is

27:24

different. We're not really

27:27

focusing on accuracy, we're

27:27

focusing on developing

27:30

communicative competence and

27:30

confidence and getting students

27:34

to really speak. So in that

27:34

case, because the focus is more

27:38

on fluency in conversation, more

27:38

implicit feedback, more recasts

27:43

are largely used by teachers,

27:43

because we want to keep the

27:46

conversation going, you know,

27:46

it's an output task, we want to

27:49

keep you outputting and speaking

27:49

and speaking your mind and

27:53

telling us really what your

27:53

thoughts on the discussion topic

27:57

are. So absolutely, it varies,

27:57

even during the class with the

28:01

teachers for what's appropriate,

28:01

during which activity and which

28:05

tasks.

28:06

And for those of us who

28:06

are not currently taking

28:10

language classes, we've noticed

28:10

that the people around us really

28:15

don't correct us. And we alluded

28:15

to this beforehand. Why do you

28:20

think that native speakers are

28:20

so reluctant to correct other

28:25

people who are learning their

28:25

language when they make

28:28

mistakes?

28:29

Yeah, that's a good

28:29

question. It's a question I've

28:32

had myself before I was a

28:32

language teacher. Funnily

28:37

enough, I'm also a student of

28:37

Spanish and French, those are my

28:41

two languages as well, and a

28:41

little bit of Korean, but it's

28:44

embarrassing, but a lot of my

28:44

language education has also been

28:48

self study. And self study is

28:48

really great for input. Because

28:54

there are, of course, a lot of

28:54

things that you can do to get

28:58

input in your target language,

28:58

whether it's, you know, movies

29:01

and TV shows, and books and

29:01

podcasts and YouTube channels,

29:05

and whatever the case may be.

29:05

But output in the target

29:08

language, when you're self

29:08

studying is very difficult. So

29:11

you try to meet up with friends

29:11

or you try to talk with native

29:15

speakers and you try to practice

29:15

you try to get that output

29:18

opportunity because your

29:18

language learner, you want to

29:21

learn the language. So of

29:21

course, you're going to seek out

29:24

output opportunities, but they

29:24

do not correct you. Largely,

29:28

they do not correct you, unless

29:28

communication has just

29:32

completely broken down and they

29:32

do not understand what you're

29:36

trying to say, or what you're

29:36

trying to ask. And I think that

29:42

part of that goes back to this

29:42

humanistic underlying of

29:46

languages. We're speaking

29:46

languages and we're learning

29:49

languages. And it's easy to see

29:49

language as a topic of study.

29:54

And it is, but it's not a topic

29:54

of study like math or science

29:57

where you just use it in the

29:57

classroom. Language is is very

30:00

much a humanistic study, we're

30:00

learning to communicate with

30:04

other people. We are people

30:04

trying to express ourselves,

30:08

they are people trying to

30:08

express themselves. So really at

30:11

its core of what makes a good

30:11

language speaker isn't

30:16

necessarily about grammar, it's

30:16

really all about communication.

30:20

And so when people are talking

30:20

with you in the target language,

30:24

you're probably going to make

30:24

errors, you're probably going to

30:27

make mistakes. But if they don't

30:27

impede your meaning, it's very

30:32

unlikely that someone is going

30:32

to correct you. And that's

30:36

because communication and

30:36

meaning in conversation is a lot

30:41

more important than accuracy.

30:41

And this kind of ties into more

30:47

of a psychological researcher.

30:47

So there's something in

30:49

conversation called the tact

30:49

maxims This is a theory by

30:55

Grice. This is getting a little

30:55

theoretical now. But basically,

30:58

he studied conversation. And his

30:58

question was, when is

31:04

conversation good and when does

31:04

conversation break down? And he

31:07

was looking at first language

31:07

speakers, but it also applies to

31:10

second language speakers as

31:10

well. And basically, what he

31:13

found was that there are four

31:13

things that need to happen to

31:17

have a successful conversation,

31:17

he says that the quality of your

31:22

language needs to be good, you

31:22

need to be honest, the quantity

31:25

of your language needs to be

31:25

good, don't speak too much. The

31:29

relation of your language needs

31:29

to be good, which just means

31:32

stay on the topic. And your

31:32

manner needs to be good, which

31:36

is be clear about what you're

31:36

trying to say. That fourth maxim

31:42

manner can be really difficult,

31:42

because it's hard to be clear in

31:47

a second language, when you

31:47

don't really understand the

31:50

minutiae of a language. So

31:50

that's when someone would start

31:53

correcting you, when you're not

31:53

clear about your meaning they

31:58

don't really understand what

31:58

you're trying to say. And that's

32:01

when you're going to start to

32:01

get some recasts and some

32:03

questions, and some other

32:03

feedback from the person you're

32:07

talking to. If all of that is

32:07

good, and they understand what

32:11

you're saying, you're good to

32:11

go, even if they're not giving

32:14

you feedback. And even if you're

32:14

not maybe saying exactly what

32:17

you want to say.

32:18

And it can just be plain

32:18

awkward to correct another

32:24

person. We don't always know how

32:24

that's going to be received.

32:28

Maybe we don't want to hurt

32:28

their feelings or risk offending

32:32

someone depending on our

32:32

relationship with them. There's

32:35

a lot of reasons people don't

32:35

correct. And the correction that

32:38

we get if we do get it is it

32:38

just doesn't sound right. Or

32:42

that's just not how we say it.

32:42

We just don't say it like this.

32:44

We say it like that.

32:45

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

32:47

So we've talked a lot

32:47

about some of the theory behind

32:51

correction methods that teachers

32:51

employ, why it doesn't happen so

32:55

much in our day to day lives

32:55

outside of a language classroom,

32:58

why people might be reluctant to

32:58

to correct us. I think it's time

33:03

that we look at a global

33:03

question, is it helpful to be

33:09

corrected? Does it help us to

33:09

reduce our mistakes and errors

33:13

in general?

33:14

I would say the

33:14

overarching opinion is yes.

33:19

Absolutely. Like, I don't think

33:19

we can say that feedback is

33:25

unhelpful. I don't think anyone

33:25

could say that. And it brings me

33:31

back a little to what we were

33:31

talking about as these phases of

33:35

language acquisition, especially

33:35

in terms of corrective feedback.

33:39

Where corrective feedback giving

33:39

feedback is really just the

33:43

first step in the process. And

33:43

that first step might then spur

33:48

the noticing and spur the uptake

33:48

and spur the acquisition. But

33:51

without taking that first step.

33:51

We really haven't started this

33:54

journey to have students really

33:54

notice their mistakes and

33:59

correct their mistakes, and then

33:59

start to solidify these

34:04

appropriate grammar and

34:04

appropriate target language

34:07

skills. So simple answer, yes.

34:07

Now when we start to get a

34:13

little bit into those learner

34:13

differences, it's a little bit

34:16

more nuanced, because we can

34:16

look at factors like you

34:19

introduced earlier of things

34:19

like age, and background, and

34:24

all of these different elements

34:24

that might affect how the

34:29

feedback is perceived and

34:29

whether the feedback is

34:32

perceived and how the student

34:32

uses the feedback whether the

34:36

student uses the feedback.

34:36

There's all of these underlying

34:39

differences that will affect

34:39

that feedback process and

34:43

whether that feedback does lead

34:43

to noticing uptake and

34:47

acquisition. But as a whole

34:47

feedback is quite good.

34:53

That's a relief I think

34:53

for for all of us teachers and

34:56

all of us learners as well, that

34:56

there is a benefit to that

34:59

process. As of feedback, even if

34:59

sometimes we don't notice it or

35:03

don't apply it perfectly and the

35:03

first time. I mean, that's,

35:07

that's always the case, right?

35:07

It just takes time and takes

35:09

practice.

35:10

Absolutely.

35:11

So as learners, what

35:11

should we focus on when it comes

35:15

to making fewer mistakes and

35:15

errors? Where do we go? How can

35:21

we use this information?

35:23

So I want to kind of

35:23

change the rhetoric a little

35:27

bit, we talked about the

35:27

beginning, like people don't

35:29

want to make mistakes and

35:29

errors. But I do want to

35:34

encourage students to make the

35:34

mistakes and errors because if

35:38

you don't try and you don't make

35:38

a mistake, then you won't get

35:42

feedback that repairs that

35:42

mistake, and you won't move into

35:46

uptaken acquisition. as

35:46

learners, it's kind of our job

35:50

to produce the language

35:50

incorrectly. We're learners,

35:54

we're working towards accuracy,

35:54

we're building towards these

35:59

different levels where we are

35:59

competent. And part of that

36:02

working towards accuracy is

36:02

making mistakes, you're going to

36:05

make the mistakes. So making the

36:05

mistakes and then noticing the

36:09

feedback. And then applying that

36:09

feedback is really what's most

36:14

important. So I don't know, if I

36:14

would say focus on making fewer

36:17

mistakes, I would say focus on

36:17

noticing when your teacher is

36:24

giving you feedback or is

36:24

giving, is saying something that

36:28

doesn't quite align with what

36:28

you've said, or is giving you

36:31

that explicit correction. That's

36:31

what I would kind of like

36:35

learners to focus on more is not

36:35

preventing the mistakes, but

36:39

allowing themselves to make the

36:39

mistakes that they're going to

36:42

make or to make the errors that

36:42

they're going to make. And then

36:45

notice what the teacher is

36:45

telling them to improve that.

36:48

And I will say different levels

36:48

of language learners start to

36:53

have kind of different focuses

36:53

with their learning and with

36:57

their output. So I think we can

36:57

all agree like beginner

36:59

learners, you're learning the

36:59

foundational skills, you're

37:02

learning the foundational

37:02

pronunciation of the language,

37:06

you do really want to focus on

37:06

accuracy in production, because

37:10

you're getting a feel for the

37:10

language. And you're just

37:12

starting to learn, okay, how

37:12

does this language work, but for

37:17

a lot of our students at ACA,

37:17

they're intermediate students,

37:20

even advanced students. And at

37:20

those levels, we're not really

37:24

looking at that finite accuracy

37:24

anymore. Because for

37:28

intermediate level students, the

37:28

focus of the classroom and the

37:33

focus of learning really becomes

37:33

communicating students ideas and

37:38

opinions, and self expression

37:38

and being comfortable taking

37:43

risks. And so at that interne-,

37:43

intermediate level, especially,

37:47

I would love to encourage

37:47

learners to worry a little bit

37:52

less about making mistakes.

37:52

Because that intermediate level,

37:55

you have the foundational

37:55

skills, you're primed to notice

37:59

the feedback, you already know a

37:59

lot of what your feedback is

38:03

going to be, start playing with

38:03

the language a little bit, see

38:07

where you're comfortable,

38:07

express yourself. And then when

38:10

we get to the advanced level.

38:10

Now we're coming kind of back

38:14

around to that more detailed

38:14

accuracy, and those more focused

38:21

attention to structures and

38:21

varying output and nuance, and

38:26

all of these other things where

38:26

we come back around to more

38:29

explicit feedback and more

38:29

feedback heavy. So I would say

38:33

kind of let yourself make

38:33

mistakes, and then let your

38:38

language grow, and push yourself

38:38

for output.

38:46

Kelsey, every week, we

38:46

offer our audience a language

38:50

learning recommendation. Is

38:50

there anything you'd like to

38:53

recommend our listeners check

38:53

out this week?

38:55

So that makes me think

38:55

back to a class I had recently,

39:00

actually with one of our

39:00

students at ACA. And I always

39:05

like to end my classes with the

39:05

question of, what are you going

39:11

to do this week to help improve

39:11

your English because I really

39:16

want my students to take

39:16

ownership of their learning,

39:21

right? It's one of those what

39:21

you put into it, you get out of

39:24

it kind of situations. And so I

39:24

always close with that. I'm

39:29

like, tell me your plan. What

39:29

are you going to do this week

39:31

for your English? And my student

39:31

last week, when I asked him this

39:35

question, he said to me, that he

39:35

was going to forgive himself.

39:40

And I didn't quite understand

39:40

what that meant when he answered

39:44

in that way, because I was like,

39:44

Well, I don't think you've done

39:46

anything wrong. Like what? What

39:46

do you mean by that? And he had

39:50

said, well, in our classes, I'm

39:50

always really hesitant to speak

39:57

because I don't want to make

39:57

mistakes. And he said that his

40:01

goal for that week was to learn

40:01

how to get comfortable playing

40:07

with the language and be more

40:07

comfortable expressing what he

40:11

wants to express and really not

40:11

worrying about the mistakes and

40:15

errors that he might be making.

40:15

And I thought that was so

40:19

lovely, because I thought, you

40:19

know, that's a mantra that all

40:24

language learners can really

40:24

start to apply, especially at

40:27

the intermediate level, just

40:27

knowing that mistakes and errors

40:32

are part of the language

40:32

learning process. And making

40:36

them is not only normal, it's

40:36

good. Because when you make a

40:41

mistake, an error or an error,

40:41

you're giving your instructor

40:45

the opportunity to help you and

40:45

to improve your language. And

40:51

you're giving yourself the

40:51

opportunity to practice the

40:54

forms that, you know, maybe you

40:54

still need a little bit more

40:58

work on. So that's what I would

40:58

recommend to our students and to

41:03

anyone else who is listening is

41:03

don't be afraid of the mistakes

41:07

and errors. They're natural,

41:07

they're good. And by making

41:11

them, you can improve your

41:11

language because you're going to

41:13

get feedback on them. And you'll

41:13

just be able to really see those

41:18

target forms, and your language

41:18

will improve. So forgive

41:23

yourself.

41:24

I love that advice. So

41:24

many of us have an inner critic

41:27

who can have a very loud voice

41:27

at time. So this goes back as

41:33

well to discussion that Chris

41:33

and I had in Episode Three of

41:38

season one where we talked about

41:38

reducing our stress and

41:43

exercising the same compassion

41:43

for ourselves as language

41:46

learners, that we extend to

41:46

other people that we give to

41:51

other people around us when

41:51

they're learning the language,

41:53

that same patience and

41:53

willingness to understand and

41:58

look beyond mistakes, we can

41:58

offer that to ourselves as well.

42:01

That's a great recommendation.

42:01

So this week, my challenge would

42:06

be to switch your digital

42:06

assistant, whether it's Alexa or

42:11

Siri or whomever into the

42:11

language that you're learning.

42:16

So when you're asking for

42:16

something, you get a little bit

42:18

of extra question, practice. And

42:18

let's face it, Siri, and Alexa

42:24

might not be quite as forgiving

42:24

of our grammatical mistakes as,

42:28

as a human being is. So it's a

42:28

great way to sort of practice

42:31

your question form and see if

42:31

you're comprehensible to a

42:36

little audio assistant. And it

42:36

gives us a little bit of a

42:40

different way to explore our

42:40

language use. Because the

42:44

tolerance for errors that our

42:44

digital assistants have is is

42:47

low. Let's call it that.

42:49

Yeah, that's a great

42:49

recommendation. I'll have to do

42:52

that myself.

42:53

Yes, it's going to be my

42:53

challenge for myself. Now I have

42:55

to decide is it going to be

42:55

French is going to be Spanish?

42:58

Maybe I'll do a week of each.

42:58

Yeah, why not both. We'll make

43:02

sure again, that we include some

43:02

of the references the academic

43:06

references and researchers that

43:06

we talked about names of the key

43:09

articles that we referenced in

43:09

the show notes in case you're

43:13

interested in taking a deeper

43:13

dive into the subject of

43:16

feedback. Or perhaps you're a

43:16

language teacher and you're

43:19

interested in reading it for the

43:19

same reason, Kelsey, it's been

43:22

an absolute pleasure having you

43:22

on the show today. Thank you so

43:25

much for bringing your wealth of

43:25

knowledge on the topic of error

43:29

correction and making mistakes

43:29

to Les Bons Mots.

43:33

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It was an absolute pleasure.

43:36

That brings us to the

43:36

endof this week's episode of Les

43:39

Bons Mots. Come visit us on our

43:39

website and lesbonsmots.ca. We

43:43

have a lot of great content on

43:43

our blog, where we post

43:46

regularly about news, culture

43:46

and language learning. You can

43:50

also see our short language

43:50

learning videos there. Do you

43:54

have any questions or

43:54

suggestions we'd love to hear

43:57

from you. You can email us at

43:57

[email protected]. or

44:01

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44:01

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44:05

Reach out to us if you're

44:05

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44:07

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44:07

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44:10

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44:10

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44:14

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44:14

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44:17

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44:17

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44:21

Thanks again. and happy

44:21

practicing