0:00

When superheroes discover what their superpowers actually

0:02

are, they wreak havoc and they make

0:04

a mess and it's uncomfortable. And even

0:07

Superman tries to get rid of his

0:09

superpowers. It's hard to know what you're

0:11

really great at. How does

0:14

somebody identify their superpowers,

0:16

their strengths? Pull your

0:18

superpowers out of your stories from

0:20

your past, your present, and then

0:22

eventually figure out how to apply

0:25

them and transpose them to your

0:27

future. The person's story. This is

0:29

central to becoming a better leader. The

0:31

most effective stories are the ones that we tell

0:34

ourselves. They may or may not be true. Our

0:36

brain doesn't know the difference. Once you can really

0:38

understand that, you may as well leverage it to

0:40

be that hero. Today

0:46

my guest is Donna Lishau. Donna

0:48

is an executive coach, speaker, and

0:50

best-selling author. She helps founders,

0:53

CEOs, and executive teams level up

0:55

their leadership skills and scale their

0:57

impact while staying true to their

0:59

mission, their purpose, and themselves. Donna

1:02

has worked with leaders at companies like

1:04

Google, Disney, Twitter, Microsoft, and Adobe. And

1:07

she's also the author of the book, The

1:09

Leader's Journey, which is what we spend our

1:11

time on. In our conversation,

1:13

we talk about why the story that

1:15

we tell ourselves has so much impact

1:17

on our success and failure, why knowing

1:19

your superpowers and also your kryptonite is

1:22

so important to your career and how

1:24

to identify these two things, how

1:26

to reframe your feelings of imposter syndrome, and

1:29

actually use it as an advantage, how

1:31

to identify your life goals, even if

1:33

you have no idea what they might

1:35

be, plus a ton of examples from

1:37

her coaching practice of people unlocking their

1:39

career using her frameworks and how they

1:41

went about doing this, and

1:43

so much more. If you enjoy this podcast, don't

1:46

forget to subscribe and follow this podcast

1:48

in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

1:50

It's the best way to avoid missing

1:53

future episodes and it helps the podcast

1:55

tremendously. With that, I bring you Donna

1:57

Lishow after a short word from our

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4:25

Donna, thank you so much for being here and

4:27

welcome to the podcast. Thanks

4:29

Leni, it's exciting to be here. So we

4:32

connected through a former colleague of mine

4:34

who could not stop raving about how

4:36

much value she got from working

4:38

with you. Also, you have a

4:40

new book out right here that I have, The

4:42

Leader's Journey. And so I thought

4:45

it would be awesome to bring

4:47

you on and share your wisdom with a wider

4:49

audience. I love the podcast.

4:51

My clients love your stuff and newsletter,

4:53

everything. So very excited to be here.

4:56

Amazing. And congrats on the book, by the way. Thank

4:59

you. You actually were a

5:01

product manager in a previous life. You're

5:04

also a designer in a previous life.

5:06

These days, you're an executive coach. Just

5:09

briefly, I'm curious what pulled

5:11

you from product management design and

5:13

the things you did before this life into executive

5:16

coaching? And maybe another way to

5:19

ask this question is what's your origin story? And

5:21

this is a little foreshadowing to the stuff we're going to

5:23

be talking about later. It's

5:26

funny. Like all origin stories, there are actually multiple

5:30

episodes, multiple moments that led

5:33

me to an epiphany. But

5:36

the biggest aha moment was

5:38

when I was working several

5:41

years ago, almost a decade ago at

5:43

this point, with an

5:45

executive team in Silicon

5:48

Valley. We were

5:51

at a leadership retreat.

5:54

And we were supposed to, at the time,

5:56

I was facilitating a program

5:58

on effective... Product

6:00

leadership, how to be a

6:03

great product leader, product executive.

6:05

And the biggest thing that companies

6:07

wanted at the time and teams wanted was

6:10

their teams to be better storytellers. And

6:13

it's still something we hear today, which is,

6:15

you know, to be a great product leader

6:17

or leader in general in any industries, you've

6:19

got to be a great storyteller. And

6:22

so at the time I was teaching and facilitating

6:25

storytelling workshops and

6:28

exploring that with teams.

6:30

And it was a few

6:33

people on this team specifically who

6:35

I so appreciate their honesty and

6:38

candor here, which is what this giant

6:41

tech company is known for,

6:43

very blunt people working there. And

6:46

they pulled me aside

6:48

halfway through the offsite

6:50

and they were just like, honestly,

6:52

storytelling is not going to fix our problems. This

6:55

is silly. And what

6:57

they were able to tell me

6:59

is that their leaders

7:01

wanted them to be more effective by having

7:03

greater influence. And, you know, these

7:06

are terms that we throw around all

7:08

the time, be more influential and be

7:10

a better leader, whatever that means. And

7:12

what was happening on the ground with

7:15

these executives was that

7:18

they were all fighting. So,

7:21

you know, I'd hear, oh, the head of

7:23

engineering is such a jerk or this person

7:25

won't listen to me or my team is

7:27

demotivated and I get it, but they need

7:29

to step up and work more. And there's

7:31

a lot of conflict going on

7:33

here and there that storytelling wouldn't

7:35

fix. Like when that

7:38

happens and I talk about this in the book a

7:40

bunch, no one wants to hear your stories. You

7:42

have to actually be able to connect with people

7:44

and to work with people and feel good as

7:47

a leader in order to really step up and

7:49

lead. You know, I didn't have an answer for

7:51

this team at the time and I left this

7:53

offsite just honestly feeling

7:55

terrible and not

7:58

knowing what to do about it except telling... them, I

8:00

think you got to go work with a coach because

8:02

this is beyond my pay

8:04

grade. But when I left

8:06

that day, I just couldn't stop

8:08

thinking about this team because I had hunched

8:11

that stories were still a part

8:14

of something, but not

8:16

what they needed. Telling stories was not the

8:18

answer. And so I ended up spending what

8:20

now is the next decade figuring out, all

8:22

right, how do you become an effective leader?

8:25

And of course, because I can't do anything

8:27

lightly. Once I went down that path, I

8:29

ended up switching up my entire business. And

8:31

now that's all I do is help people

8:33

be better, more effective, constant leaders

8:35

who really make the impact that they want to make. So

8:39

along those same lines, what's interesting is you

8:41

actually found that this idea of storytelling was

8:44

actually much more effective in your

8:47

coaching practice, instead of helping them figure out the

8:49

story of the product. It's the

8:51

story of the person and so transitioning into

8:53

the meat of your approach to

8:55

coaching. I think you

8:57

call it story-driven leadership. Essentially,

8:59

your finding is that story

9:02

and the person's story is

9:05

extremely important and powerful in helping them

9:07

level up as a leader and

9:09

also seeing them as the hero of their story.

9:11

So I guess just with that foundation, you just talk

9:14

about why that is so powerful,

9:16

the idea of figuring out your own story and why you

9:18

need to be the hero of your own story and just

9:20

what all this means. We all

9:22

as humans want to be the hero of

9:24

our own story. It's how we live our

9:26

lives. It's how we make choices. It's how

9:29

we understand the world around us.

9:31

And it's how we communicate back

9:35

to the world. With leadership,

9:37

it's much the same, which is

9:41

we have a mission that we want

9:43

to accomplish. No matter how big or

9:45

small, it's something. We're driven to do

9:47

something. If you're a leader,

9:49

you want to be a leader. You have to be

9:51

taking yourself and you have to be taking people somewhere.

9:55

We also have obstacles. So that's a part

9:57

of any great story. There are two. It

10:00

shouldn't be easy. It shouldn't be so

10:02

hard that you fail. That's a tragedy. But

10:05

there are challenges and it makes life more exciting.

10:09

You don't do it alone. So it's

10:11

rare that a story just has a

10:14

single individual. It happens, but that's not

10:16

most of life. And

10:20

there are other elements that I

10:22

ended up uncovering when I looked

10:24

deeper into what makes the most

10:26

effective leaders effective. And

10:29

the biggest thing is stories that we tell

10:31

people, it's like the tip of the iceberg.

10:34

And if anything, it even doesn't matter.

10:36

I've worked with a lot of folks who

10:38

their teams say, stop it with the storytelling.

10:40

Stop talking at us. And they don't want any

10:42

of that. But the most effective stories are the

10:44

ones that we experience as we live life

10:48

and that we tell ourselves as well.

10:51

Because we have the

10:53

ability by saying things like, oh,

10:57

I'll never succeed. Or,

11:00

oh, she'll never go for it.

11:02

Or, he's such a jerk. Or whatever

11:04

the stories are, these are all stories.

11:06

And they may or may not be

11:08

true. They're usually not

11:10

true. But our brain doesn't know

11:12

the difference. It's like the

11:15

most powerful ability our

11:17

brain has is to understand and see

11:19

stories everywhere. And so once you

11:21

can really understand that, you may as well leverage

11:23

it to be that hero in

11:26

your life. And even as I say it out loud, it sounds so

11:28

cheesy. But it's true. This is neuroscience and

11:30

psychology. We just want to be the heroes. And

11:33

that's what our focus is. So

11:36

I want to delve deeper into that idea

11:38

there. So people listening to

11:40

this might feel like, OK, cool. Let me think about the

11:42

story of my life. This sounds like a fun thing I

11:44

could do. I

11:47

think your point is this is central to

11:49

becoming a better leader, figuring out

11:52

the story of you and

11:54

that change in your perspective on yourself and

11:56

giving you more, like unblocking you,

11:58

I think, is the big problem. You're just

12:00

talking about more just like the power and why this

12:02

is so important because it's not just like, oh, I'll

12:05

sit around and think about, oh, here's my story. I was born here.

12:07

I did this thing. Why is

12:09

this so important to do? It's

12:12

a little antithetical in a

12:14

way because it sort of,

12:17

it goes against what a

12:19

lot of us believe, especially if

12:22

we have, I'll say,

12:24

product backgrounds or just business backgrounds

12:26

or tech backgrounds or anything where

12:29

we've built things for people. For

12:33

years, we've had this idea that

12:35

we build companies in a user-centered

12:37

way where, all right,

12:40

build for the customer first and

12:42

all else will follow. There's

12:46

some truth to that on the one hand. I

12:49

used to think leadership was the same, which is,

12:51

well, it's not about you as a leader. It's

12:53

about who are you bringing along

12:55

on your journey and how do they need to

12:57

be heroes? How do you enable everyone you work

12:59

with and everyone you want to follow you to

13:02

join you and feel amazing with it?

13:05

That's the kind of user-centered approach where it's

13:07

not about you. It's about who

13:10

you're bringing with you and the impact you want

13:12

to make. What

13:15

I learned is

13:18

that it doesn't work that way

13:20

and you need to

13:22

flip that, which is when you start

13:24

with you first at

13:26

the center of the equation and then

13:28

I'm going to do, everything for

13:32

me is a diagram. I'm thinking of concentric circles.

13:35

This isn't also, Ken

13:38

Blanchard has a great model for this where you

13:40

start with you, the inner

13:44

circle, then you are able to lead

13:46

yourself, then you can lead others. It

13:48

extends to one-on-one relationships. Then

13:51

once you've got that, you're able to lead

13:54

groups, teams, and then

13:56

outward towards the business.

14:00

When you figure that out and

14:02

you come from the inside out,

14:04

it's much, much more powerful because

14:06

it's not selfish like I would

14:08

have thought years ago, but it's

14:11

purposeful. You

14:13

as humans, we all are driven

14:15

by a mission, by

14:18

purpose, by reason for what

14:20

we do. And when

14:22

we're able to have that power us, it

14:25

then empowers us to connect with others

14:27

so that we can bring it to life.

14:29

And especially in a business context, but this is the

14:31

case in anything, communities

14:34

and family, but especially in business. So

14:36

it has to start with you. You

14:38

gotta need fuel from somewhere

14:40

and if it comes from without, it's like

14:42

an egg shell that's just

14:44

ready to crack. It's

14:47

not sustainable if it comes from outside. Can

14:49

you give an example of someone

14:51

you worked with that changed their

14:53

story and what impact it

14:55

had on their career to make this even more real? I

14:59

can think of a CEO I

15:01

worked with a few years ago who

15:03

on the outside was so

15:06

put together. He was the CEO of

15:08

a billion dollar company,

15:11

successful, raised

15:15

money like no one's

15:17

business, was able to get people excited

15:19

about what he was building, join him.

15:24

And when we started working together,

15:26

he had recently hired an

15:28

executive team, members of an

15:30

executive team that were just superstars,

15:33

Silicon Valley and just incredible. And

15:36

they were so excited to work

15:38

with him. He was

15:40

so excited to work with them as well. But

15:43

on the inside, the

15:46

story he kept telling himself

15:48

was he's too nice. Everybody

15:52

listens to him was another story. People

15:56

don't take me seriously was another

15:59

story. there were what I

16:01

call horror stories, this is not a scientific

16:03

term by any means, but horror stories that

16:05

he told himself were things like we're

16:09

never gonna make it or they're

16:12

never gonna listen to me or I'll

16:14

never learn to be a real CEO

16:17

and the problem with stories like that

16:19

is they

16:21

end up taking over your

16:24

identity. They shadow

16:26

and cloud your everyday and actions you

16:28

take and interactions you have with people

16:31

and when you

16:33

focus on them so much they

16:35

very well will become true.

16:39

So that's one example

16:41

I could tell you a little

16:43

more about that, what we did about it. Yeah, that's exactly

16:46

what I was gonna ask and then I'd love to and

16:48

then yeah so if you could share what you did to

16:50

help shift a story and then also just

16:53

how do people do this for themselves? Perfect.

16:56

So in

16:58

this case and this is like everyone

17:02

I work with and this is absolutely something

17:04

that everyone listening and

17:06

everyone in the audience can absolutely do

17:10

is take

17:13

a data-driven

17:16

approach to the

17:18

stories that you tell yourself. So

17:20

for example, you know the

17:23

story I'm too nice,

17:25

you know, it could be true.

17:27

Could that be true? How

17:29

did we get down to the bottom of that?

17:31

In this case what we did is I went

17:33

out there and talked to his team and this

17:36

is something you can do for yourself as well. If

17:39

you're extremely busy, you can have someone else do it

17:41

for you and I

17:44

found out how people actually

17:47

experienced him and his leadership

17:50

and I didn't hear he's too nice. I

17:52

heard that he is so

17:56

heartfelt and so caring

17:59

and that's really cool thing. I mean

18:01

how rare is that for

18:03

you know to hear about a CEO especially

18:07

a founder oftentimes you hear the

18:09

opposite which is not really

18:11

true usually when founders are not

18:13

nice people they're insecurities at play but in this

18:15

case yeah he people were like well you know

18:17

we love him he's wonderful that's why he recruited

18:20

us and so great

18:22

all right um validated and a

18:24

little debunked really nice

18:27

but not too nice that was not

18:29

a problem for anyone so

18:31

then we hear things like okay you

18:34

know one story he told himself was like people don't

18:36

take me seriously they don't listen to me what's what's

18:39

going on I need to

18:41

command respect and they need to just do what

18:43

I say and I hear this all the time

18:45

so I'm using this one example but this could

18:47

be anyone I've worked with and

18:51

what we heard from people

18:53

instead was it's not that they weren't listening

18:57

to him but when

18:59

you're hiring super senior

19:01

whip smart executives to

19:04

work for you they

19:06

don't want to be told what to do they

19:09

want to have a grand

19:11

vision that they're excited about they want

19:14

maybe some goals to latch on

19:16

to and and help possibly

19:18

with a strategy to get there although

19:20

probably they they can they got the

19:22

strategy all on their own

19:24

and they want to then show you how

19:26

they can help you in the business meet

19:29

your goals and align towards that vision so

19:31

you can build the company that you want

19:33

to build so

19:35

that story no one listens to me it was

19:38

the wrong story to be telling

19:40

what the actual story was is

19:42

that people wanted him out of

19:44

their business and wanted

19:47

to feel empowered doing their

19:49

seed level and exam super

19:51

senior executive level work but

19:54

we don't want them to be absent because when he does that

19:56

it doesn't work and it's very frustrating when he just

19:59

disappears for two weeks. So we need him

20:01

involved but want him to give

20:04

us problems to solve. Give us a

20:06

vision, give us problems to solve, let us do

20:08

it for you. And so they

20:11

were able to write a better ending of

20:14

that story together. You know, it was

20:16

exactly like user research of any kind

20:18

or customer discovery, which is you find

20:20

out what could be possible from your

20:23

customers and then you

20:25

can, ideally you co-create a better

20:27

ending together if you're building products or services. That's

20:30

how you do it. If you're a leader, you

20:32

do it by showing up and helping

20:36

others do what they need

20:38

to do in a way that

20:40

feels good for you and that aligns with how

20:42

you want to be doing things. And

20:44

so this is one example, but I

20:47

find using real

20:49

research and data and

20:51

actually talking to people is

20:54

most effective. There are

20:56

other ways to take best guesses and

20:58

I'll use the product metaphor again, which

21:00

is, you know, you can

21:03

try things and experiment and then see how

21:05

it works and not

21:08

talk to your users, but you should probably

21:10

talk to your customers. In

21:12

other words, your colleagues and everyone who works

21:14

for you and really find out what is

21:16

the true story and what is possible. There's

21:19

all these stories that people believe

21:21

about themselves. And to your

21:24

point, many of them are not true. When you

21:26

actually look at the data, you talk to your

21:28

customers, aka your colleagues. I imagine

21:30

many are actually true or there

21:32

are feedback you get that is

21:34

like you are not clear

21:36

enough about stuff. Like there's things that you actually hear from

21:38

other people. Does this approach help there

21:41

as well or is there a different tactic

21:43

for something that's actually okay? You are actually

21:45

too nice. It's not just a story in

21:47

your head. Absolutely. There are times

21:49

when the stories that we tell ourselves

21:52

are true. And when we

21:54

go out and find out what's

21:57

possible, it Is something that's

21:59

not true. We're doing that

22:01

needs to change or.

22:04

Isn't. Working. And

22:07

so one example is. And.

22:09

This comes up sometimes as well.

22:11

One. Executive.

22:14

Who. I worked with once. Kept.

22:17

Getting this feedback that she was.

22:20

Too quiet. And. When we

22:22

went out and got feedback it was true.

22:24

People are like. She. Needs

22:26

to speak hoping for her

22:28

and this is. Becoming

22:31

a problem because. She.

22:35

Was. So quiet that her team

22:37

thought she was not interested in

22:39

them. As you to sit

22:42

back and meetings not say anything and they

22:44

were like. God. She sucks

22:46

like this is the loo you know who

22:48

who? worse cause ever I don't even want

22:50

to be. It does needing. And why is

22:52

she here? Why am I here? And it

22:54

really really was detrimental to them all working

22:56

together. And then she was frustrated kids. she

22:59

was always wondering why are they not performing

23:01

They're not stepping up And so he was

23:03

frustrating all along. And it was true. She.

23:06

As far as a side. Her not

23:08

speaking up. Was. The

23:10

problem. But. When.

23:13

We got down to the bottom of

23:15

what we're really going on for her

23:17

in not speaking of it at these

23:19

meetings is she was just listening. To

23:22

her processing style was she had to

23:24

listen and then may be a few

23:26

hours later she'd She'd have thought. And

23:30

so even though the team said we

23:33

we do owner and participate what they

23:35

really needed to know is that admitted

23:37

it was speaking are not speaking with

23:39

they really needed for her was to

23:41

know that she was listening to them

23:43

and that she actually heard them and

23:45

was gonna do something about it and

23:47

that she wouldn't She was quite nice

23:50

me she was not checked out. And.

23:52

So. Simple. Solution for

23:54

that in or she could start. Trying.

23:57

Yellow more and talk over people be of noxious

23:59

but nobody. Like that either. And so

24:01

she just turned communicating with them more

24:03

about hey this is this is my

24:05

style and low low floor a often

24:07

need you know couple hours really process

24:09

things and sheer and I want you

24:11

to know that he owns. The.

24:14

Irony of. Establishing those

24:16

lines of communication with your team when

24:18

they're not getting what they need is

24:21

that you often and of doing this

24:23

thing that you've been trying to do

24:25

but failing to do anyway because chin

24:27

up talking more. With. Her team

24:29

just in communicating with them about

24:32

her style and then they started

24:34

communicating. Their. Styles with her and

24:36

with each other and this is something that

24:38

is not the book of a human. Have

24:41

heard of the city of like a personal.

24:43

O s that a lot of us like to

24:45

have which is hey these are my work styles.

24:48

This is how I process is so it's you

24:50

things. These are great ways to work with me

24:52

and here's I'd love to work with you an

24:54

incentive to know other than and worked it worked

24:57

out really well. but but I'm sure she was

24:59

not speaking up and it was. It was having

25:01

a detrimental effect but Dancer was not. Talking

25:04

more. You. Actually was listening more than just

25:06

having a better relationship with people. As

25:09

an awesome example, by way on the Work in the

25:11

Person was another term for that I've heard as read

25:13

Me like you're impersonal read Me file. Ah,

25:15

I like that to. Ya migrates.

25:18

So. It sounds like there's gonna be

25:20

sued. Buckets Sprawling more buckets but one is a

25:22

story of yourself that is not true. That.

25:25

You can disprove by looking at data, talking

25:27

to people, and then there's a something, almost

25:29

a story people have about you. That.

25:32

They don't quite get what's going on and then

25:34

you could change their story. By. Communicating

25:36

years that I'm really doing, I'm actually just listening

25:38

and I'm actually really deeply paying attention. If.

25:41

We pick an example same. Impostor

25:44

Syndrome which comes up a lot on his podcast

25:46

for people feel eight. I. Am

25:48

an impostor in this role. nobody knows how bout

25:50

I like. I've no idea what I'm doing so gonna

25:53

crumble. If. I mess up. So.

25:56

Say so and have that in their head. And like

25:58

I. Everyone. Can tell. I

26:00

am in a posture and it all crumble. How

26:03

would you recommend someone that this is

26:05

real or not? Understand is this a story in

26:07

my head or is this real? And what

26:09

do people actually think? Like, you go talk to people, how

26:12

do you recommend people go about that?

26:15

Certain stories

26:18

we tell ourselves are actually

26:21

quite functional

26:25

and do not necessarily

26:27

need to be rewritten. So

26:31

imposter syndrome, for an

26:34

example, if you're going

26:36

around saying, I

26:38

feel like I'm an imposter, I

26:40

can't believe I'm

26:43

doing this. You can

26:45

try to fake it till you make

26:47

it. You can try to, I always

26:49

think of Stu, I'm totally dating myself

26:51

here, but Stuart Smalley in

26:53

Saturday Night Live in the 80s and

26:55

90s, he would look in a mirror

26:57

and do his affirmations and say, you know,

27:00

I'm smart and I

27:02

am whatever. Good enough, I'm

27:04

strong enough and gosh darn it, people like

27:06

me or love me. There

27:08

you go. So it's like, you

27:10

could do that and it's kind

27:13

of all very mechanical and there's ways

27:15

to sort of prop yourself up. But what

27:19

if you took a

27:21

counterintuitive approach and looked

27:23

at that story, I'm

27:25

an imposter and instead

27:27

asked, okay, that's like a

27:30

good story. How is that serving

27:32

you? Because when

27:34

we default to these behaviors,

27:38

imposter syndrome is something everyone

27:40

has at one point or another. When

27:43

we default to these behaviors of,

27:45

oh God, I'm an imposter, okay, over and over and over

27:47

again. I know

27:49

it doesn't feel good, but we default to

27:51

that because it's serving us in

27:53

one way, otherwise it wouldn't become a habit. And,

27:56

you know, I always think of habits as it.

27:59

So if you have an it. He. Scratches

28:01

You feel. Better. So.

28:04

There's a reason why we scratch

28:06

ditches feel better if you do

28:08

too much. it hurts and something

28:10

like. That. Telling

28:13

detrimental stories. Have

28:16

that impact, but when you can

28:18

intercept them, Purchase. The right

28:20

time. And. Say. Okay,

28:24

What if that is? True. How

28:26

does it serve me to constantly

28:28

say I'm an imposter whenever anything.

28:31

Gets. Hard. Well.

28:34

There are so you know one. Cofounder.

28:39

I. Worked with a while back. she did this

28:41

whenever she things got too hard and then she's

28:43

convinced and in founders of this a lot I

28:45

Who am I to be running this company and

28:47

what am I doing here? and oh my god

28:50

I can't be doing this. But when we looked

28:52

at. How that habit

28:54

of calling herself an imposter searched

28:56

her? What? She realizes that every

28:59

time it kicks in. She.

29:02

Worked harder, He.

29:04

And his just meant she was hitting some kind of

29:06

the growth edge. So. When she

29:08

would jump into action she would

29:10

learn something new she will read

29:12

twenty bucks. She would go out,

29:14

take a class, she would listen

29:17

to podcasts and then on and

29:19

on and end. She would get

29:21

better at this new saying. It

29:23

was fun for her and then

29:25

she would feel less like an

29:27

impostor overtime. So it was a

29:29

very functional. Thing. For

29:31

her. The. Problem is when she

29:33

did that too much and this is the case.

29:35

I work with a lot of women who this

29:38

is the case for. She. Hasn't

29:40

had way to network. And

29:42

so she took on emotional labor

29:44

for other people as she does.

29:47

Ten. Times as much work as she needed

29:49

to the like actual work as see you

29:51

know in her role she was playing C

29:54

O in Cs Go and see you know

29:56

he he Oh and it's it's like she

29:58

didn't need to be doing all of that

30:00

and so. On a

30:02

spectrum. Of it's actually

30:05

helpful. Give yourself a pat

30:07

on the back for. Jumping

30:09

into imposter. As

30:11

own. Every time things get hard.

30:15

To. The other side of the spectrum which is

30:17

okay, but. When. It's too much.

30:19

You burn outs. You're.

30:21

Doing way too much work for other

30:23

people you're falling into. These

30:25

unfortunate conventional gender roles. It doing

30:28

extra work you don't need to.

30:31

See. You want to find a happy medium

30:33

but I think that the the trick is

30:35

to with impostor syndrome to not deny it

30:37

to embrace it as much as he can

30:39

but not embrace it so much that it

30:41

ends up. Holding. You back

30:43

so. Yes, Functional.

30:46

Even things that we think are bad for us

30:48

are actually good. I. Love

30:50

that advice of so much easier to just like.

30:52

Okay yep, that's true. maybe I am an impostor,

30:54

but here's how we can maybe help me. While.

30:57

I feel this. And it does actually reminds

30:59

me of another co to get a guest post my

31:01

newsletter long time ago and. Heard. Voices like.

31:04

Yeah. You probably aren't imposter. You're in a

31:06

role you've never done before, and that's. Pretty.

31:09

Normal. And. That's okay, and

31:11

here's how you should approach it.

31:13

Yeah, especially intact. Where are the rules? We have

31:15

are all made up. Your. Probably the

31:17

first person ever to have your bowl

31:19

anyway. Whether you founded the company or

31:21

you're you're doing something else. A or

31:23

company. So. Yeah. It's

31:26

a great thing. Embrace it. So. The

31:28

take your advice there is essentially ask yourself

31:31

okay, this may be how I feel. How

31:33

the? helping me? And don't try to push

31:36

it down and convince yourself. Or

31:38

your not as really an imposter, But how is

31:40

this feeling helping you. Hadn't. Serving

31:42

your it's where am I have a whole chapter

31:44

and kryptonite in in the book? Which is. It's

31:46

it. It's what I. Call.

31:48

kryptonite and a you superhero metaphors

31:51

pretty pretty heavily in in the

31:53

but cause i'm guessing grandchild and

31:55

i like com x and superhero

31:57

stories but and so am i

31:59

claim So I think because I work in tech I get to

32:01

do this. But I

32:03

liken it to kryptonite, which is

32:06

the things that

32:08

we think harm us.

32:11

Actually, when we look at how they serve

32:13

us, they can serve a function. Like

32:15

kryptonite for Superman, it's how people are

32:17

able to operate on him. They use

32:19

a little kryptonite so they could get

32:21

in there and do some surgery and

32:24

then get out. So it serves a

32:26

function. But when it's too

32:28

much, that can be detrimental.

32:30

So yeah, how does it

32:32

serve you? This is a question that is

32:35

so important and so, so powerful. What

32:37

are some examples of other types of kryptonite that

32:39

you find leaders have? And how do you find

32:41

that it ends up maybe serving them

32:43

and being useful? They're

32:46

the kinds that you should

32:49

avoid and can avoid. So

32:51

for example, scheduling

32:55

things is my kryptonite. But

32:57

I do

33:00

meetings for a living. And I love being

33:02

in meetings, strangely. And so not scheduling is

33:04

not an option. But there are ways around

33:07

it. So I automate everything. And some people

33:09

hire assistants. And there are ways to do

33:11

it. So that's the kind that

33:13

you're better off avoiding. There's nothing that serves

33:17

me about having to schedule things. Or

33:21

my inability to schedule things properly. How is

33:23

that serving me? You know what? I don't

33:25

care. Doesn't matter. So just

33:28

the kind that you need

33:31

to avoid. Or you could

33:33

say toxic people or people who just

33:35

don't add anything to your life. There are kinds

33:37

that are just like, all right, done. Moving on.

33:40

But then there are the kinds that's

33:43

usually on the inner

33:45

kryptonite side where you can

33:48

look at, OK, well, how

33:50

does this serve me? And

33:53

so sort of wide

33:55

swath of people example is dyslexia.

34:00

So I work with a

34:02

lot of founders,

34:05

CEOs, and senior executives

34:08

who are dyslexic. Very,

34:11

very, very common, especially for

34:13

CEOs. You

34:16

could say, well, that's kryptonite, you know,

34:18

having to read things or do

34:21

things with text, and

34:23

it can feel like that to a

34:26

lot of people. Yet

34:28

when you look at the science of

34:30

something like dyslexia, it's

34:32

not so much an impairment.

34:35

It just means that your brain is

34:37

operating at a different level in a

34:40

different way than most people. Same thing

34:42

with ADHD, and you could extend it

34:44

to autism and a ton of other

34:47

things as well. But

34:51

when you're dyslexic, you're thinking

34:53

spatially. You're thinking big, you're thinking

34:55

visually. So yes, you mix

34:58

up letters or you're struggling with big blocks

35:00

of text. That's fine.

35:02

If you're founding a company,

35:05

you're not in documents all day long anyway,

35:07

probably. So that ability to think big and

35:10

spatially and visually is probably how you created

35:12

your company in the first place, or how

35:15

if you work at a large corporation,

35:17

how you catapulted into executive leadership that

35:19

way because you're a visionary and you do

35:21

all these things. I think

35:25

the inner kind of kryptonite, that's how I

35:27

like to think of it, which is you

35:29

think it makes you weak, but

35:31

when you can look at how it serves you, it's often

35:34

not the case. So it could be something

35:37

that is often

35:39

classified as a disorder, like dyslexia,

35:42

ADHD, and it could be quirks.

35:44

Like the one earlier, I'm too

35:46

quiet. Well, no, she was just

35:48

a really good listener. She just didn't realize that

35:50

she had a poker face on when she was

35:53

listening, and no one knew she was listening. So

35:55

everything, it just looks at

35:57

how it serves you. So just kind of unique.

36:00

to avoid the kind of kryptonite that

36:02

you need to really look at and

36:04

embrace. And once

36:06

you embrace it, just like with the superheroes,

36:08

it becomes ideally something

36:11

that's useful in small doses like

36:13

Superman, or it could

36:15

be something more like Hulk, which is, you

36:17

know, you could say his kryptonite is his

36:20

anger, but that's also his superpower and he

36:22

can't get rid of it. Or if

36:24

he does, he becomes Mark Ruffalo being

36:27

really boring, like in the

36:29

Stavanger movies and he's all meditating. Yeah, I

36:31

don't know what the point of that is.

36:34

So yeah, that's how I see kryptonite. It's actually

36:36

a really, really amazing, amazing tool that

36:38

we can all leverage. The

36:41

flip side of kryptonite is superpower.

36:44

And I definitely wanted to spend time here. So

36:46

I'm a big believer in this, you

36:48

are too, of just how important

36:51

it is to lean into your strengths.

36:54

And identify what you're better at than most people

36:56

and use that as your way

36:58

of getting ahead versus trying to say,

37:00

just remove these kryptonite slash

37:04

things you're not good at. For me, it

37:06

was really a big deal. I actually worked with a

37:08

coach while I was working and this

37:11

was in the biggest step

37:13

changes for me is just realizing I will never be

37:15

amazing at XYZ. But it turns

37:17

out I'm really good at these things. And so let

37:19

me just use those things to achieve the things I'm

37:21

trying to do. As one example, I'm

37:24

never going to be an amazing public

37:26

speaker. I hate that stuff. Even though I do

37:29

this podcast, it's not my strength. And

37:31

it turns out I much prefer writing and sitting there

37:33

and thinking. And that's what led to

37:35

this newsletter. I started doing the thing that was pulling me

37:38

and was easier for me and ends up

37:40

being really successful because that's another way of

37:42

achieving the same thing, it turns out. So

37:44

here's the question. Why is it so important

37:46

to think about your

37:49

superpowers? How do you identify your superpowers and just how

37:51

do you think about this area? You

37:53

know, on the one hand, there's so

37:55

many studies that show that when we

37:57

play to our strengths, we're

38:00

much more effective than when we try

38:02

to fix what's broken. It's

38:04

a waste of energy to fix what's

38:08

broken, for the most part. But when you

38:10

can amplify your strengths and

38:12

figure out how to use them

38:14

productively so that you can

38:18

fulfill your purpose, meet your goals, do

38:20

what you need to do in life,

38:22

and bring others along with you, it's

38:25

just that you have

38:27

such a bigger impact that way. I'm

38:31

going to give

38:34

you an example. And it's funny that we're

38:36

here talking about this. Because so

38:38

a while back, I remember

38:40

we first met over email. I

38:43

was thinking of resurrecting my newsletter.

38:46

And I hate writing. And I've written two

38:48

books. I hate writing. But

38:51

more than hating writing, I hate

38:53

email. I hate sending emails,

38:56

reading emails. I really struggle with it.

38:59

But yet, I have this newsletter that people

39:02

love. And

39:04

people are begging me to send more of over the

39:06

years. And at the time, I was like, oh, maybe

39:08

I'll dust it off. And

39:11

I remember emailing

39:14

you about this and asking if

39:16

we could have a call, because I had

39:18

questions about newsletters. And your answer was, no,

39:20

no, no, no, no. No

39:22

calls. I

39:24

don't know if it was that. Something

39:26

like this. It was just like

39:29

I prefer to avoid calls whenever I can.

39:31

Yes, there you go. So I've heard of avoid calls

39:33

whenever I can. It was very polite, right? But it

39:36

was like, happy to answer any questions

39:38

you have. Can you shoot me an email? And

39:41

I don't remember if this was my

39:43

answer. But I think my

39:45

answer to me was, no emails. I

39:48

cannot shoot. Like, I can't

39:50

give you my questions written. Maybe if I can record

39:52

them for you, you all think about it. And I

39:56

think in the end, the irony is I

39:58

ended up resurrecting the email. a lot,

40:01

email list a while later and now

40:03

I do send occasional newsletters that I

40:05

actually like writing and people enjoy.

40:08

But, you know, I knew, okay, I'm not going

40:10

to, it'll take me like five hours to write

40:12

down my questions for you over email.

40:14

And I knew that was not right for

40:16

me. You knew, you know, having

40:19

a meeting was not right for you.

40:21

That was fine. That was great because in

40:23

the end it was easier for me to

40:25

write an entire book than to write that

40:27

email to you. It

40:29

probably was faster to write my book

40:31

than it would have been to write the email

40:34

to you. And in the end here

40:36

we were having that first conversation which is

40:38

really fun but it's in a way that

40:40

feels good to both of us. Play to

40:43

your strengths and good things happen. It's not

40:45

worth it trying to, like I could

40:47

get better at writing emails but you know what,

40:49

worth my time and you could have

40:51

more meetings and not worth your time either. Let

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me tell you about a product

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42:06

Is there an example you can think of of someone that

42:08

you work with where identifying their strengths

42:10

and then leaning into that made a big

42:13

impact on them? Gosh,

42:15

I see this all the time. I

42:17

especially see this with founder CEOs because

42:19

there's this very heavy

42:23

misconception that when you are,

42:28

again, catapulted into some kind of senior leadership

42:30

position that you're supposed to be a certain

42:33

way and you're

42:36

supposed to be loud and opinionated

42:38

and controlling and tell people what

42:42

to do. But I've

42:44

worked with some amazing CEOs who are

42:46

just incredible listeners

42:48

instead. It's the same thing, which

42:50

is they embrace what works for

42:52

them and they don't try to

42:54

be what they're

42:57

supposed to be. Well, they have to learn that. I

43:00

think of Bob Iger as an example

43:03

from Disney. I haven't met him.

43:05

I know people have met him and I just always

43:07

hear, such a sweet person, so nice and

43:09

such a great listener.

43:11

You can control the world and

43:13

do it in your way. I

43:16

see this all the time. Any of

43:19

your strengths, they operate again on that

43:21

continuum with Crip tonight, but if you

43:23

can figure out how to leverage them

43:25

and really be comfortable with them, cool

43:28

things happen. Cool things happen. The

43:31

big unlock for me was realizing that you

43:33

can achieve all the same things using

43:36

different strengths. You can be an

43:38

amazing CEO being very loud, charismatic,

43:41

visionary. You could also be a great CEO being very

43:44

quiet and thoughtful and deliberative

43:47

and working in small teams versus like, hey

43:49

everyone, listen to what I have to say.

43:52

Exactly. Okay, so how

43:54

does somebody identify their

43:56

superpowers, their strengths? I know

43:58

there's some tests they could take. Very tactically, what do

44:00

you recommend people do? What do you send them to to figure out?

44:02

Here's what I'm really good at There are

44:05

tests out there. I have Personally

44:07

not found them as helpful, but some people

44:09

love them and so if

44:11

you've ever taken a strength finder test

44:14

or there's a V

44:17

I a character strengths test

44:19

I think it's called those are the

44:21

two most popular and you can you

44:24

know Just take a multiple choice quiz and it'll tell

44:26

you what your top five strengths

44:28

or characteristics are and I

44:31

don't find it useful because if I just get a

44:33

list of things I will never remember what the list

44:35

is and also has no context for me and

44:38

so what I do and what I

44:40

find works better for my clients as well is to

44:44

pull your superpowers out of your

44:46

stories from your your past and

44:51

Your present and then eventually figure out

44:53

how to apply them and transpose them

44:56

to your future but

44:58

if you look at your

45:01

peak experiences from

45:03

from life from work But

45:05

especially from from life because even if

45:08

you're you want to be a better

45:10

leader in a work context is a difference between Work

45:13

and life. It's it's very blurry. So it's

45:15

better You're better off not separating them. But

45:17

if you look at your your peak experiences

45:20

from your past So I would go

45:22

back to when you were a kid what's something

45:24

you did when you were a kid like a project you

45:26

worked on or something you were a part of that completely

45:29

totally lit you up and that you were so

45:32

excited about and I

45:34

would then look at something From

45:36

your more recent past like what's the project

45:38

or something you worked on in the last

45:40

maybe 10 years that Just

45:43

jazzed you up and you're so

45:45

excited to do and Then

45:49

I would also look at Just

45:51

how did you get into your line

45:54

of work? The thing

45:56

that you're doing now, what's that meandering? And

45:59

when you You can look at these three

46:02

stories as

46:07

moments in time and you can kind of lay

46:09

them on top of one another. What

46:11

you see at key moments is your

46:14

superpowers popping through

46:16

and they're the things that empower

46:19

you to make

46:21

an impact. They

46:24

are the things that do

46:27

make an impact. An

46:31

example I'll give you is

46:33

one of another executive I

46:35

worked with a while

46:37

ago. She kept being

46:40

told in these dreaded 360 reviews

46:43

at her company, they were obsessed with

46:46

another big tech company. They were obsessed

46:48

with superpowers at this company. She

46:51

would get these 360 reviews from her team

46:53

telling her what her superpowers

46:55

were. They kept

46:58

saying attention to detail. She

47:01

was like, I hate

47:03

details. That's

47:05

my kryptonite. I cannot deal

47:07

with details. They

47:10

kept telling her, wow, you're so great. You

47:12

have this attention to detail. They kept giving

47:14

her more detail-oriented stuff to do.

47:16

She was like, I want to be, we

47:19

should be doing strategy and high-level stuff.

47:21

What is happening here? With

47:25

her, when she could say, my

47:28

strength is strategy and I hear that all the time,

47:30

I'm a strategist. What is that? It doesn't even mean

47:32

anything. That's not a superpower. It may as well say,

47:34

I don't know. That

47:38

means nothing. When we looked at her

47:41

past and her stories, what we were able to pull

47:44

out is that she was

47:47

really great at connecting things

47:50

together, connecting themes, connecting

47:52

pieces, trends, and

47:55

connecting people, connecting ideas together and

47:57

then connecting people to ideas.

48:00

she was happiest and that's

48:02

when she was most effective. And

48:05

so eventually that being a connector,

48:07

it was a superpower, one of

48:09

her superpowers. It also became part

48:11

of her identity. And

48:13

over time she was able to shed

48:15

that whole, the great attention to detail

48:17

thing as she just started embracing that

48:19

ability to connect and it made her

48:21

much more effective at her job

48:23

in the end. So yeah, look to your

48:26

path and you can pull out key moments

48:28

and see what your superpowers are. We'll

48:30

link to these tests that you recommended just for

48:33

people to explore. I took a couple of them and they

48:35

were actually really useful to me. So I think

48:37

it's, if nothing else, it's a good little context

48:39

to have while you do this other exercise. And

48:42

I don't know if I got this right, but one is think about peak

48:44

experiences in your life, including like

48:47

childhood or like mostly adult life you

48:49

recommend. Yeah, I would go back

48:51

as far as you can. Definitely childhood,

48:53

childhood. And keep being

48:55

like, like amazing, like happy experiences. Is that

48:57

what you look for? It

49:00

doesn't have to be happy or sad.

49:02

It's just, you were

49:04

at your best. It lit you up. And

49:07

so for example, like, I mean,

49:09

I have a few, but you know, well,

49:11

let me ask enough about me. So

49:14

other people can hear this in action. What

49:17

is, when was

49:19

the time when you were younger

49:21

or a kid or anytime in the past when

49:23

you were just at your best, really,

49:26

really lit up doing something that

49:29

just fueled you? To

49:32

me, I guess I think of not

49:34

necessarily an specific example, but just like

49:36

accomplishing things always gets

49:39

me energized. Like I did this, I

49:41

did this hard thing, like selling my

49:43

startup. And that was a peak

49:46

experience. Selling

49:49

your startup. Yeah. Okay.

49:51

And starting the startup. What

49:53

compelled you to start the startup? I

49:56

always had an early regret but I never Integerred my

49:59

setup. had this goal of I

50:01

want to start a company, which is a terrible reason to start a

50:04

company, but I had a goal. I wanted to start

50:06

a company. So I had set this goal in two

50:08

years, I'm gonna leave this job and start a company. And

50:10

two years later, that's exactly what I did. What

50:13

was it about starting a company that made

50:16

that something that you were so

50:18

interested in doing? I wanted to prove to myself

50:20

that I could do it, I think is the core of

50:22

it. Like I just want to, I keep

50:24

reading about startups, all these people are doing interesting

50:27

things. I want to just see

50:29

if I can pull this off. Okay, so

50:31

you wanted to just see if you could pull it off.

50:33

Yeah, and I also felt like I had the skills

50:36

to do this compared to

50:38

other folks that were starting companies and trying to their

50:40

hand at a startup. So you

50:42

wanted to do it because you want to see if you

50:44

could do it. And you thought you thought

50:46

you could do it. What's

50:49

so cool when you do this exercise, if we were to

50:51

do it, we're not going to do it now, it would

50:53

take a little while. But if you

50:55

were to unpack enough of those stories, even if

50:57

you can't go far

50:59

back to your childhood, sometimes, sometimes

51:03

you don't have those memories. If

51:05

you could unpack at least three of

51:08

those scenarios, you would find

51:12

themes. So for example, it

51:14

could be that

51:16

one of your superpowers is doing

51:20

things because you can do

51:22

them. Yeah. And that's

51:25

really cool when applied in the

51:27

right way. I

51:30

don't know if you said you did the exercise,

51:32

I'm curious to know what you came up with.

51:34

What I'm thinking about as you talk about this is,

51:37

I was very shy my entire

51:39

childhood. And I think people didn't

51:42

expect me to achieve big things because I was always just

51:44

like this nerdy shy guy. So I think there's always this

51:47

like chip on my shoulder of like, I'm going to show

51:49

I'm going to show people what I could do. I want

51:51

to show that I'm capable of more. So

51:53

I think there's a lot of that there. When

51:55

you can look at that in context, what you

51:57

could see is you

51:59

could see how it's

52:01

helped you through life, even

52:03

if it came from adversity. I'm

52:06

sure you can also see times

52:08

when that has not served you and

52:11

when over-indexing on, I'm going to do it

52:13

just because I can do it has actually

52:16

done a disservice to

52:18

you. And

52:20

so that's, that's how you end up

52:23

using them, which is you really look at,

52:25

all right, from here to where

52:27

I now want to go. How can I use

52:29

this and what do I need to watch out

52:31

for if I'm going

52:33

to over-index and use

52:36

this too much? Yeah.

52:39

Another blanket example that I'll give

52:42

is problem

52:44

solving. Like this is keen ability to

52:46

solve problems. I work with a lot

52:49

of high achieving, especially

52:51

founder CEOs who are amazing

52:53

at solving problems and how

52:56

they got to where they are. It's usually why

52:58

you start a company, you're solving some,

53:00

well, for the rest of us, maybe

53:03

you do it because you want to see

53:05

if you can do it. Otherwise it's just to solve the

53:07

problem. But when

53:12

you're a super senior executive, at

53:14

some point you can't be

53:16

solving problems for everyone and if you're

53:18

just in the weeds solving problems all

53:20

day, that's when you're not doing your

53:22

real job and you're going to be

53:24

driving your whole team and your whole

53:26

company nuts. And so you have

53:28

to figure out, okay, if

53:31

this like keen ability to solve problems is

53:33

a superpower, how do you apply

53:35

it differently? That super resonates. A

53:37

lot of times you just, you're interested in the problem.

53:39

You just want to, it's like a puzzle and close

53:42

screen. Yeah. That

53:44

gets you in trouble. So to

53:46

answer your question, what these tests told me my

53:48

number one strength was was adaptability, that

53:50

I could just adapt to situations, which has pros

53:52

and cons, but I super

53:55

resonate. I find that I could just

53:57

fit into things and adapt. And

54:00

then it's a perfect example. And as you

54:02

see, it has its pros and

54:05

cons. So again, just for

54:07

people to think about, because I really think this

54:09

is such an important topic, and

54:11

it makes me want to write a newsletter post about this,

54:13

just like how powerful it is to identify here is the

54:16

things I'm very strong at and

54:18

why it's important to double down on those

54:20

versus think about solving your weaknesses. So

54:23

your advice here is maybe take these quizzes. That'll

54:25

give you a sense of maybe your superpowers. And

54:27

then think about your peak life

54:30

experiences when you're the most yourself, I think, as

54:32

I describe it. When you're

54:35

at your best. At your

54:37

best. At your best. Yep. And there's an

54:39

element of also when you're energized, which came

54:41

up a few times on this podcast, like look for things that

54:43

give you energy. There's something there. Yep,

54:47

because then if you subscribe

54:49

to, I'm sure your

54:52

audience is familiar with this idea

54:54

of managing your energy, not your

54:57

time and which

54:59

is great for managers, great for anybody. This

55:01

will help you do that. If you're using

55:04

your superpowers, you will have

55:06

more energy to use them too much, then it's

55:08

going to detract. But you want to

55:10

be doing more of that, more of what

55:13

lights you up, more of what you love,

55:15

and figuring out how to manage

55:17

the rest, whether it's outsourcing or

55:20

sometimes fixing, but I don't know, we're

55:22

all grown adults. Probably is a matter

55:24

of outsourcing or

55:26

getting help or supplementing. We

55:30

don't have to fix everything. There's

55:32

a guy that we'll link to in the show

55:34

notes by another executive coach, Matt Machari, who we

55:36

had on the podcast. It's

55:39

just like a walkthrough of how to do an energy

55:41

audit on your day so that you can

55:43

identify what gives you energy. And

55:45

this is actually exactly what led me to

55:47

this path. When I left my

55:50

job, I specifically paid close attention

55:52

to what gives me energy after

55:54

a meeting I had, after a call, after things

55:57

I did in the day, and what stops me of energy. And I just decided

55:59

I will do more of that. more of the things that are giving the

56:01

energy. And that ended up being this

56:03

newsletter and eventually this podcast. So it really

56:05

works. There you go.

56:07

And I know Matt Mashari works

56:09

similar to me with a

56:11

lot of founder CEOs where you have to

56:14

do that. You have to

56:16

do that because chances are

56:18

you're spending, you're exhausted, you're burnt out,

56:20

you are spending your energy in the

56:22

wrong places. And so, I mean, it

56:25

applies to anybody, but especially when you

56:28

are leveling up in leadership and

56:30

doing something new and hitting that

56:32

growth edge, you gotta be

56:35

doing it. It's just, yeah, you'll

56:37

run yourself into the ground otherwise. I

56:40

imagine many people listening to this are feeling like, like

56:42

I wish I could not be in these dumb meetings that I'm

56:44

in all the time and these stupid reviews.

56:46

And like there's a lot of stuff you

56:48

have no control over but also very energy-sapping.

56:51

What advice would you give to people thinking

56:53

that? Well, okay, let

56:55

me qualify this with, this is

56:57

why I'm not a career coach, by the way.

57:00

Like I don't help people figure it navigate how

57:02

to change jobs or leave jobs

57:05

because I think if you're spending most

57:07

of your time in your day doing things

57:09

that are sapping your energy and you hate

57:11

the things you're doing in your job, maybe

57:13

you're not in the right job. So

57:16

I don't know, if I was a career coach, I would

57:18

just tell everyone, oh yeah, quit your job. I don't know

57:20

what you're doing there. But there's

57:23

a lot of truth to that, which is if

57:26

there are things that you can

57:28

control energy-wise, great,

57:30

manage your energy, not your time.

57:33

If there's really nothing you could do about it

57:37

and it's the context and it's the situation,

57:41

then your next best thing is trying to

57:43

figure out how to change the context or

57:45

the situation. So I'm pretty

57:48

ruthless there, I think.

57:50

This is what I still bring from

57:52

product management. I'm ruthless when

57:55

it comes to prioritizing

57:57

things. I love it, with prioritization. Yeah,

58:00

there you go. This reminds

58:02

me of a Steve Jobs quote that I

58:04

love of his advice is just if you

58:06

wake up every morning and you're feeling dread

58:08

for the thing you're doing, it's okay to

58:10

wake up sometimes and feeling that and

58:13

feel like, ah, I'm not excited about this

58:15

day. But if it keeps happening over and over and

58:17

over and over, that's a sign that maybe you should

58:19

make a change. Yeah, I

58:22

think there's something there. There's

58:24

something there. And

58:26

actually, I'm going to bring this back to Kryptonite if

58:28

it's something little like,

58:30

let's say, Zoom fatigue, for

58:33

example. I know

58:35

it became definitely a topic when

58:38

the pandemic hit a

58:40

bunch of years ago, but I've been

58:42

working remotely for, God,

58:45

years, years, and even

58:48

pre-pandemic. And

58:52

I'm in meetings all day long. I love it. I

58:54

love working with my clients. They're

58:56

all over the world, so we can't always travel to

58:58

be with them. We do sometimes. They can't always travel

59:00

to be with me. But the

59:04

video is the next best thing, but

59:06

it also can be exhausting. And

59:08

so does that mean I'm not just never going

59:10

to have video calls ever? No, because I love

59:12

what I do. And so

59:14

I've discovered little hacks

59:17

for that one, which is don't schedule

59:20

too many meetings a day. Great.

59:23

I do lots of active stuff

59:25

in between. Jim walks,

59:28

whatever, try to get in-person

59:30

social time, no meeting

59:32

days. And

59:35

for during meetings, right

59:37

here, I've got one of my squishies. There's

59:40

a neurological thing with

59:42

Zoom where we're

59:45

just getting stimuli from through our

59:47

eyes. And

59:51

through our brains, but we're not getting physical

59:54

stimuli. The same I would be

59:56

getting if we were in a room together,

59:58

hanging out, even having you just be on the other

1:00:00

side of the room and we're chatting, it would be

1:00:03

a very different physical experience

1:00:05

that would close that circuit

1:00:08

tree for me and leave me

1:00:10

more satisfied as opposed to on Zoom

1:00:13

I'm all like, my brain's like on

1:00:15

the lookout for something. And so

1:00:18

I and a lot of my clients do this too. Fidget

1:00:20

help ground me

1:00:22

when I'm on Zoom calls and it's

1:00:24

like, okay, great. So there's things

1:00:27

you can manage, but yes, like that Steve

1:00:29

Jobs quote, you know,

1:00:31

our idea is like, if you, God,

1:00:34

if you really don't like

1:00:36

and are getting energy sucked for most

1:00:38

of what you're doing and it's constant,

1:00:40

you got to change your situation. I

1:00:43

really like that tip. That's very practical and by something that you

1:00:46

can play with with your hands. I use this pen actually is

1:00:48

what I'm playing with usually with the podcast. I

1:00:50

need something squishy, maybe. If

1:00:52

there's anything you recommend, let's link to it

1:00:54

in the show notes. Oh my God.

1:00:56

I know, I know. I, um, one

1:00:59

of my superpowers that's actually

1:01:01

my kryptonite, but if, um, if

1:01:03

I'm humorous about it, I'll

1:01:05

call it super, a superpower is, um, starting

1:01:07

things that I don't finish. And so I

1:01:10

have, um, I think I have a

1:01:12

picture of it somewhere on my website,

1:01:14

a superhero supply kit that I prototyped

1:01:16

a while back that has, um, all

1:01:19

these different types of fidgets and chocolate

1:01:21

and like all these things to get

1:01:23

you through your meetings. And there are,

1:01:25

um, like pointy fidgets that give you

1:01:27

energy in the morning and then there

1:01:29

are squishy ones for the afternoon. I've

1:01:32

done way too much research.

1:01:34

I should send you one at some

1:01:36

point. I have a few boxes prototype

1:01:38

and, um, I never ended up doing anything with them.

1:01:40

So I just send them to clients sometimes. I'll

1:01:43

take it. Okay. I'll

1:01:46

put that on my list of things

1:01:48

I need to do, just also my kryptonite.

1:01:52

Okay. So there's just a couple more things I wanted to sit

1:01:54

on and then I'll let you go. One

1:01:57

is you have This interesting

1:01:59

approach of. The product frameworks.

1:02:01

Let. People know in their day to day a building products. To.

1:02:04

Translate that to personal growth and base.

1:02:07

And. Said your book users like I design

1:02:09

they double diamond framework for helping people think

1:02:11

about. Their. Own life and career? Is

1:02:13

there a couple you could share of. That.

1:02:15

People can maybe think about in use of just like you're

1:02:18

some you don't product. Here's. How

1:02:20

you can actually use this in your life, In

1:02:22

your career? I. Trained.

1:02:25

With. This chart.

1:02:28

Coaches. And therapists when

1:02:30

I moved in to

1:02:32

coaching discharge. Psychology

1:02:35

and sought therapy. The

1:02:37

idea is. That puts

1:02:39

a lot of what. What? I

1:02:41

talked about and especially in the

1:02:44

book this idea as when you

1:02:46

want to create a meal lasting

1:02:48

powerful change you don't do by

1:02:50

forcing change to happen, the instead

1:02:52

doing, do it by embracing what

1:02:54

is and what's working and then

1:02:57

figuring out how to leverage that

1:02:59

and so it works. For individual

1:03:01

therapy, works for for coaching and

1:03:03

also works more broadly for organizational

1:03:05

change in and giant transformation on

1:03:08

the development, projects on or initiatives

1:03:10

or any any. Kind of change. But.

1:03:13

One. Of. The

1:03:16

theoretical underpinnings there is. When

1:03:18

you. Do understand what's

1:03:21

working and he starts again

1:03:23

idea of what's possible or

1:03:25

something that you wanna go

1:03:27

try or do or create

1:03:29

or make happen. You

1:03:32

don't just go and change everything.

1:03:34

I do it all at once.

1:03:36

You take one tiny step and

1:03:38

run a little experiment. To. Get.

1:03:41

Data. And so.

1:03:43

The way I work and were

1:03:46

at learn to work at least

1:03:48

through guess stop coaching Assault therapy

1:03:50

was. You.

1:03:52

Don't Leave the session with. Me

1:03:55

without having tried a little experiment

1:03:57

first. So the analogy there's M.

1:04:00

You know we'll call it in in the

1:04:02

room experiment vs then get out of the

1:04:05

building and do in experiments and his son

1:04:07

he subscribed to I guess and we call

1:04:09

it will Lean methodology although as you like

1:04:11

these names change all the time and know

1:04:14

that so ten years ago and it I

1:04:16

don't care what anything called but the the

1:04:18

of experimenting in getting data. And

1:04:21

then using what you learn to make

1:04:23

informed decisions on how to change things

1:04:25

and then had a build things and

1:04:28

how to make things even more successful.

1:04:31

It works for the

1:04:33

digital products. That we

1:04:35

build. It. Works for the

1:04:37

businesses that we build an it

1:04:39

works for ourselves than ideally do

1:04:42

it. For. All the above,

1:04:44

And so. Anything

1:04:46

you think is true or you

1:04:48

wanna do it's a hypothesis. Until.

1:04:50

You tested. And you go

1:04:53

out get data and then you can do

1:04:55

a bigger version bigger version. Bigger.

1:04:57

Version: So it works with human psychology

1:05:00

and all the things we wanna. Create.

1:05:03

And learn in life is just as well.

1:05:05

As with products. That

1:05:07

are example one a little experiments you're in a session.

1:05:10

Bring. His back to the example of.

1:05:13

That. One executive from earlier to keep

1:05:16

continuity here who thought she was.

1:05:18

Too. Quiet. And her

1:05:20

team was complaining about her. And actually the

1:05:22

irony is that often when people come to

1:05:25

me with. Things. That

1:05:27

there's some embarrassed by like on the

1:05:29

outside she was like actually quite loud.

1:05:31

Like as a as a person she

1:05:34

was really loud and brash and all

1:05:36

these things as a say in terms

1:05:38

of her team, they. Didn't.

1:05:40

Like how crazy was in in

1:05:42

meetings at be Especially that dissonance

1:05:45

there. Was confusing to them cause she

1:05:47

was so loud and boisterous. And

1:05:49

energetic, but using that

1:05:51

as an example. I

1:05:54

member when we first. realize

1:05:57

that the reason why she was so quiet

1:05:59

meetings discuss you spending a lot of time

1:06:01

doing deep listening, she

1:06:04

started to chill out a little bit about it and

1:06:06

stop beating herself up as much and started

1:06:09

realizing, oh, that's a good

1:06:11

thing. Why am I so

1:06:13

insecure and getting so angry at

1:06:16

myself for doing this all the time? That's

1:06:18

good. So she started to

1:06:20

chill out a little bit. But then

1:06:22

the idea of her a bigger experiment

1:06:24

was in your

1:06:26

next meeting later this afternoon, see

1:06:29

what it feels like to sit there and

1:06:31

just listen for

1:06:34

an hour. Just see what it feels like, and then see

1:06:36

what you make of it. And then we'll figure out what

1:06:38

to do about it. But just see what it feels like

1:06:40

to listen and be in awe of,

1:06:44

wow, I'm really listening.

1:06:47

And so that would have been like a get out of

1:06:50

the building experiment.

1:06:54

But the idea of doing that petrified her, because

1:06:56

she's like, I can't sit for a whole hour

1:06:58

just being like, yeah, patting myself

1:07:01

on the back, I'm a good listener. Look

1:07:04

at me. Or not even good or

1:07:06

bad, but wow, I'm really listening. That's all I

1:07:08

ever want from people is just this radical

1:07:11

appreciation, this awe of, wow,

1:07:14

I'm doing this. Everything changes when you figure

1:07:16

that out. But we decided

1:07:18

to run a little experiment, because that

1:07:21

was just why waste a whole hour of

1:07:23

her life when we could just do something in 30

1:07:25

seconds in the room right

1:07:27

now. And so we tried

1:07:29

a little role play of like,

1:07:31

all right, what would it be like to

1:07:34

just sit here for 30 seconds? And I

1:07:36

talked about I don't know what. And

1:07:39

just listen to me. We're having a

1:07:41

meeting. What does it feel like for 30 seconds

1:07:43

to do that? And

1:07:45

we did that. And her

1:07:48

answer was, that was terrifying. That

1:07:53

was god awful. Like,

1:07:55

oh my god, I have to do that for a whole

1:07:57

hour. And That was it..

1:08:00

Ritual Yogurt. Hi, I'm a guy. he can't

1:08:02

hear you. Very. Uncomfortable means

1:08:04

Mrs. Swirl bring up the whole

1:08:06

superhero analogy Again, that in. Superhero.

1:08:09

Stories when when superheroes discover

1:08:11

what they're super powers actually

1:08:13

are. They. Don't to say

1:08:15

oh thanks for this gift and then

1:08:18

run and save the world. They are

1:08:20

room. Every superhero has or

1:08:22

seeley hard time accepting. Oh

1:08:24

this is nine. Just.

1:08:27

Hell no or we would do a

1:08:29

duet. this and they wreak havoc and

1:08:32

they make a mess and it's uncomfortable

1:08:34

and even Superman tries to get rid

1:08:36

of it, has superpowers often and concedes

1:08:39

doesn't like being super and so it's

1:08:41

hard to know what you're really really.

1:08:44

Gray. That's. Blade

1:08:46

when you can run little experiments

1:08:48

that get bigger and bigger over

1:08:51

time and really learn how. To.

1:08:54

Whether it's embracing your superpowers or anything what

1:08:56

seen her since you want to try something

1:08:58

scary or like we can be with my

1:09:00

superhero supply kit As like I really want

1:09:02

to build a gift box. Let.

1:09:04

Me prototype that? Okay, fine. Five years

1:09:06

later have I done anything with it?

1:09:08

No, but adults it. I saw it

1:09:11

as like it felt good and then

1:09:13

as I got bigger with my experiments

1:09:15

of thinking about moving, how can a

1:09:17

mass produced this? where would I sell

1:09:19

it? see what about taxes? Oh God.

1:09:23

No for me, I'm a chance. I give them with

1:09:25

gifts. But hung whether it's

1:09:27

products for you or your business,

1:09:29

Small. Experiments. Get. Data

1:09:32

go bigger. it's just it or

1:09:34

eight all of it you will

1:09:36

accomplish incredible thing. And.

1:09:39

I think though a lot of the power there's you

1:09:41

feel like while there something you hear it and expect.

1:09:44

And. This is like a new interesting learning.

1:09:46

I'm. Missy. World was can go. Yes,

1:09:49

and I think the biggest difference that

1:09:51

was took me a long time for

1:09:53

me to learn is that as opposed

1:09:56

to product development you're going, you're You're

1:09:58

testing things, not just Howard. How's

1:10:00

it working? And what is the? Numbers.

1:10:03

What? even with Friday going to run out of

1:10:05

looking at Nokia enough? Natus Again numbers all the

1:10:07

time. But you're. When.

1:10:09

You're experimenting with yourself and

1:10:12

with. People you work with in

1:10:14

with your team, that with your company's. It's.

1:10:17

And. You run it

1:10:19

through three filters so. And

1:10:21

this is not my turn. but I'll say head heart. Hands

1:10:24

is what I like to think of witches.

1:10:27

Head Okay, how's this going? What

1:10:29

are my thoughts? You. Know

1:10:31

you might think yeah, Okay,

1:10:34

I'm trying listening. That's fine.

1:10:36

Okay, next Emotionally, how is

1:10:38

this going? In. Your heart. Well.

1:10:41

I'm terrified. This

1:10:43

feels awful or this isn't so bad

1:10:45

or whatever it is in the or

1:10:48

Murphy fine. I hear that a lot

1:10:50

of that. that was fine but then.

1:10:53

Had. Is the on your Body.

1:10:55

Our bodies are ultimately where we

1:10:57

store all live or where we

1:10:59

take in their stimuli and and

1:11:01

then the store Oliver experiences and

1:11:04

or body also tells us what

1:11:06

next action we should take and.

1:11:09

It's. We run an experiment in scan

1:11:11

your body and sake. Yeah. That's

1:11:13

all fine. And the heady soon? your

1:11:15

body. oh numb. Will

1:11:18

that will tell you something or and

1:11:20

your insolence? I were a honey feel

1:11:22

on my hands are on fire. And.

1:11:25

For. I was working with one when

1:11:27

Clay yesterday and I think she said.

1:11:30

Something. Like that that was fine

1:11:32

and her who sees turned bright

1:11:35

red. He

1:11:37

earned it. And. then s or minute

1:11:39

you know we were able to say like. What?

1:11:41

You've with Conrad Fine vs your face

1:11:43

turned bright red. What happened there? And

1:11:45

then she realized. Oh.

1:11:48

I'm burning up. This

1:11:50

is not okay so you have run

1:11:52

it through with head heart. Hands

1:11:54

Life. Is like. Product.

1:11:57

Thinking and it's also not. We have to go.

1:12:00

deeper and more broad with our

1:12:02

experiences. And then we'll learn the

1:12:04

most to be able to make the

1:12:06

most informed amazing decisions. And so

1:12:09

cheesy, but you live a

1:12:11

good life and make an impact and be a great leader

1:12:13

and do all the things you want to do that

1:12:15

way. Beautiful.

1:12:17

The point

1:12:19

you just made about how much of our thinking

1:12:22

is driven by our body, we just had a whole

1:12:24

episode on this a few episodes ago with Johnny Miller

1:12:27

where we talked about the nervous system and how most

1:12:29

of our neurons go up to

1:12:31

our brain versus down from the brain and our body

1:12:33

is telling our brain what we're feeling. So there's a

1:12:35

lot. If you want to explore that as a

1:12:37

listener, that's a great episode. We'll link to it in the show

1:12:39

notes. Okay, good. Okay,

1:12:41

let me ask you a question that my colleague

1:12:44

suggested. She gave me a few suggestions to ask

1:12:46

you and I imagine this is what worked for

1:12:48

her in you two working together.

1:12:51

So question she had is how

1:12:54

as an executive coach do you help identify

1:12:57

slash bring out goals or wishes

1:13:00

that people have in their subconscious but

1:13:03

are unable to realize or articulate?

1:13:06

Start with the ending. Come up with how you

1:13:08

want things to turn out and then work your

1:13:11

work your way back and start

1:13:13

as far out as you want. It could

1:13:15

be decades

1:13:17

from now, it could be five years from now, could be

1:13:19

three years from now, could be a year from now, it

1:13:21

could be a quarter from now, you could do all the

1:13:24

above and really

1:13:26

imagine close your eyes, imagine you're

1:13:28

there, engage all your

1:13:30

senses. What do you hear? What do you smell?

1:13:32

What do you see? Who do you see? What

1:13:34

do you feel emotionally, physically? And what are you

1:13:41

doing? What have you accomplished?

1:13:43

What's amazing? And

1:13:46

then if

1:13:48

you've got something exciting, go

1:13:52

back to the beginning and then figure

1:13:54

out, imagine how you got there and just

1:13:57

write that journey down. and

1:14:01

think of it as if you

1:14:03

think of it as an experimental roadmap then

1:14:05

start thinking alright what's the first thing I

1:14:07

want to need to learn to

1:14:09

know if this is right work

1:14:12

your way towards that and onwards. If

1:14:15

you do that and you really you're like I

1:14:17

have no vision which I remember is what happened

1:14:19

in this case you sit

1:14:21

with it for longer you can't write that journey

1:14:24

if you don't have that ending

1:14:26

and so you sit with it for as long as

1:14:28

they need until you get it and then you

1:14:32

create it and again it sounds so

1:14:36

cheesy in a way and I'm you know

1:14:39

and I know it's not like I'm subscribing

1:14:41

to this like anything you want in life

1:14:43

you just say it and accomplish it I

1:14:45

know life doesn't exist like that but dream

1:14:49

it see it and then

1:14:52

start taking steps

1:14:54

to get there what you end up

1:14:57

creating will very likely be very

1:14:59

different than you ever imagined but

1:15:01

this is what's gonna fuel you

1:15:03

we're human we're visual creatures and

1:15:05

so yeah that

1:15:07

this is and I have a whole

1:15:09

mission section of the book and I

1:15:12

have lots of to choose your own

1:15:14

adventure options for troubleshooting and

1:15:16

and pitfalls to look out for but

1:15:19

yeah that's that's my long-winded

1:15:21

answer envision it then

1:15:24

figure out how you might have made it happen and go make

1:15:26

it happen I was gonna say

1:15:28

this is a great tease for a part of

1:15:30

your book we didn't get to too much so

1:15:32

a good reason to go buy the book yeah

1:15:34

something I was gonna say as you're talking as I with

1:15:37

this coach I worked with once we did

1:15:39

this exercise and I was like

1:15:41

okay five years or maybe ten years I'm not

1:15:43

working anymore here's what I'm doing I'm living here

1:15:46

family she's like everyone in tech

1:15:48

is like in five years they're not working

1:15:50

anymore done

1:15:52

they're tired everybody's

1:15:55

in that that's their future which is

1:15:57

not obvious yeah I think but hilarious

1:16:00

Yeah, I remember years ago ten years ago. I

1:16:02

was like ten years from now. I'm

1:16:04

definitely not working in tech Definitely not

1:16:06

working in tech and then here

1:16:08

we are, but it's funny how things end

1:16:11

up but what matters is That

1:16:14

you're clear on the impact that you want to make and

1:16:16

how you make it Knows what will

1:16:18

end up being the case but and

1:16:21

that you're doing it true to yourself An

1:16:24

impact is another chapter in your book which we're

1:16:26

doing that's yes There's a lot of company Jesus.

1:16:28

Yes. Go buy the book. There's Donna

1:16:31

is there anything you wanted to share or leave

1:16:33

listeners with before we get to our very exciting

1:16:35

lightning room? No,

1:16:38

no, this has been so since it's

1:16:40

been so delightful chatting with you. No

1:16:42

nothing else Well with

1:16:44

that we've reached our very exciting lightning ground. Are

1:16:46

you ready? I'm ready First

1:16:49

question. What are two or three books

1:16:51

that you've recommended most to other people?

1:16:55

Here's a funny thing is I used to have

1:16:57

all these different books for different topics I'm gonna

1:16:59

give you the worst answer, but it's true all

1:17:02

these different books for different topics and Similar

1:17:05

to when I was working in product all

1:17:07

these different books and whatever and then eventually

1:17:09

I realized I need to write

1:17:11

the book that I really want to recommend and

1:17:13

so I did that with my last book the

1:17:15

user's journey which is all about product

1:17:17

development and I Sound

1:17:20

so conceited, but I really believe it. I now

1:17:22

recommend my book the most and It

1:17:26

combines all my favorite ideas

1:17:29

philosophies books out

1:17:31

there and you can check out the bibliography

1:17:33

to see all the 3050

1:17:36

books that you can read otherwise, but Man,

1:17:39

I sound like such a jerk. No, I get

1:17:41

this because this is what my newsletter was

1:17:43

originally is like I will just do

1:17:45

my best to define an answer to

1:17:47

this question I get often and put it together and make

1:17:49

it really good so that I could send

1:17:52

people here is my best answer to This question, but every

1:17:54

time I do that they're like, oh brother just

1:17:56

like sending your own blog post to me Like just

1:17:58

tell me what it oh it An

1:18:01

answer like but I written the

1:18:03

best version of it here I this

1:18:05

is gonna answer everything you're looking for so

1:18:07

I go through the same the same pain Okay,

1:18:11

next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie

1:18:13

or TV show that you've really enjoyed a show?

1:18:16

I've been watching recently and I feel

1:18:18

funny saying this because the fourth season was

1:18:20

on recently and it was I

1:18:22

didn't enjoy it as much but the first few seasons

1:18:24

were so much fun was for

1:18:27

all mankind on Apple

1:18:29

TV have you seen it the You're

1:18:34

so much fun. It's all like what if the

1:18:38

The space industry was like in an alternate

1:18:40

reality in the last few decades were different

1:18:42

than what they were so

1:18:45

that was very fun and if you

1:18:47

You know for work stuff you could always a lot

1:18:50

of my clients love watching Ted lasso for

1:18:53

You know all the leadership stuff and it's

1:18:55

just a sweet show but yeah for

1:18:57

all mankind is recent. That's really fun

1:19:00

Next question. Do you have a favorite interview question

1:19:02

that you like to ask? Usually this is meant

1:19:04

for people interviewing candidates But is there anything that

1:19:07

comes to mind when I ask? the

1:19:10

question I always ask when I'm interviewing

1:19:14

clients because if we don't if I'm not excited

1:19:16

about what you're doing, we're not gonna work together

1:19:18

and and if

1:19:21

I Yeah, I

1:19:23

want to know what that is. And so Imagine

1:19:26

it's a few years out and You've

1:19:33

had the best However

1:19:35

long year or three years of of

1:19:38

your life What would you

1:19:40

be telling me? and I like

1:19:42

to add a twist to

1:19:44

that which is from Benjamin

1:19:46

Zander in a book called the art of

1:19:48

possibility where he with his Students

1:19:51

he used to say give yourself an a

1:19:54

if you could give yourself an a at the end of the semester

1:19:58

What What would you

1:20:00

be writing like right? the ending. And so

1:20:02

I love doing that with clients to see

1:20:04

seeing what could be. Were. Could be

1:20:07

possible that we could create if we

1:20:09

if we were together. Same thing with.

1:20:12

Job. Candidates although it's from hiding the

1:20:14

the one of my first job they

1:20:16

were got out of college else is

1:20:18

in the early.com days. I remember. My.

1:20:20

Then we'll became my boss. He asked

1:20:23

me that question when they're. He.

1:20:25

Was interviewing you like However, I saw myself and five

1:20:27

years and a member of the time. May.

1:20:29

Answer was. Not. Here and

1:20:31

hopefully making documentary films and this

1:20:34

is like as. Dot. Com

1:20:36

job A but specific demands and a killer

1:20:38

vague answer to that way I was like

1:20:40

yeah, I'm going to be doing something else

1:20:42

and five years and he loved it so

1:20:44

much that he hired me like August. On

1:20:47

the spot and we're still. we're

1:20:49

still friends many decades later, so

1:20:51

of yeah, that's my favorite. Interview

1:20:53

questions all around. And to

1:20:56

question people for new product of just

1:20:58

what is the ideal experience. That

1:21:00

could with the perfect version of we're we're building and

1:21:02

will sort backwards from that are was like the tenants

1:21:04

version. Exactly. Or and you know

1:21:06

if you add to that like if you

1:21:09

could wave a magic wand and same same

1:21:11

kind of thing, What could be possible? The

1:21:13

isle of the leveraging of products. The.

1:21:16

Always into coaching. A

1:21:18

Love it. Next. Question: Your favorite

1:21:21

product that you recently discovered that you

1:21:23

love may be already mentioned A squishy

1:21:25

thing. Maybe. Something else comes to mind. Message.

1:21:28

It's all message. It's a has many.

1:21:30

Many. Different tunes. There's. So

1:21:32

much fun! I'm sure I have a better answer

1:21:35

somewhere, but. As. I

1:21:37

say mind. You can become point is is or

1:21:39

favorites in length of yours. Sure people. Are

1:21:42

curious? Yeah. Discovered. I

1:21:44

treat. Them I will Definitely the I

1:21:46

they all have. yeah I'm there's also been

1:21:48

long one the. Sticky.

1:21:51

Monkey Noodles So many purple, so

1:21:53

many amazing. you

1:21:55

have a favorite life motto that you

1:21:57

often find yourself coming back to sharing

1:21:59

with friends or family, either in work

1:22:02

or in life? It's

1:22:04

a phrase that I got from one

1:22:06

of my mentors and I

1:22:09

teach it to all my clients, which

1:22:11

is her catch phrase

1:22:13

is, isn't that interesting? And

1:22:16

I have it as a sticky

1:22:19

note on my, like

1:22:21

a physical sticky note on my computer

1:22:23

monitor to remind me, which what

1:22:25

it reminds me to do is get into what

1:22:28

Gestalt folks

1:22:30

call an optimistic stance.

1:22:34

And I'm a chronic, serious, like

1:22:36

a cute pessimist. Anyone know what's

1:22:38

me? I'm cranky, but I love

1:22:40

this reminder to be in this

1:22:42

optimistic stance. And it's not like,

1:22:45

again, not that Stuart Smalley, wow,

1:22:47

everything's great. Woohoo. But it's

1:22:50

a kind of radical appreciation. Not

1:22:52

isn't this good or bad, but

1:22:55

wow, I just stub my toe

1:22:57

and it really hurts.

1:22:59

Isn't that interesting? Let me feel

1:23:01

that throbbing toe

1:23:03

or wow, someone just my,

1:23:07

someone on my team just talked over me in

1:23:09

a meeting. When he

1:23:12

times in the last hour.

1:23:14

Actually, this happened with a client recently.

1:23:16

I was there at an executive

1:23:18

team meeting and it's like, you

1:23:20

know, someone kept talking over

1:23:23

the CEO over and over and over again.

1:23:25

And, you know, often when that happens, you like bark

1:23:27

right back or you get angry or you get quiet

1:23:29

or whatever it is, but when you can really fully

1:23:32

appreciate, isn't that interesting?

1:23:34

My shoulders are really

1:23:36

tensing up right now. Wow. You

1:23:39

know, whatever's going on, you often have

1:23:41

more informed, not often, you

1:23:43

will always have more informed mindful actions

1:23:46

that you can take or not

1:23:48

take. And so this

1:23:50

is like, you can't pay me to

1:23:53

meditate or anything or do yoga, but

1:23:56

mindfulness, yeah, if you could just think

1:23:58

to yourself, isn't that interesting? Interesting anytime

1:24:01

something extreme happens in

1:24:03

life You will be shocked at what

1:24:05

you learn and then what you what

1:24:08

you do accordingly Very

1:24:11

Buddhist non-judgmental awareness Exactly

1:24:14

that it's good or bad Final

1:24:17

question. I'm surprised you haven't used any Dolly

1:24:20

Parton quotes in this conversation clearly

1:24:22

in your book. You're a big fan I'm

1:24:25

curious what what is what

1:24:28

it's a wisdom or quote that comes

1:24:30

to mind that always they think of

1:24:32

from Dolly Parton Yes, and

1:24:35

thank you for reminding me because as they're originally

1:24:37

what I was what I was gonna say Which

1:24:39

is one of my I mean,

1:24:41

there's so many Dolly quotes and I think all

1:24:43

my favorites are in my book, of course,

1:24:46

but um one of my favorites is

1:24:49

Find out who you are and do

1:24:51

it on purpose that's

1:24:55

You know amazing another one you don't like the

1:24:58

I guess my two favorites you don't like the

1:25:00

path you're walking on Pave

1:25:02

a new path. It's, I

1:25:05

mean, what more in life do you need than

1:25:07

that? There's all, yeah, you know, Buddhist and Gestalt

1:25:09

and mindfulness or whatever, but you could just do

1:25:11

what Dali does and you'll be all good. Donna,

1:25:14

thank you so much for being here.

1:25:17

Two final questions. Where can folks find

1:25:19

you if they want to reach out and maybe work with you? And

1:25:21

how can listeners be useful to you? Great

1:25:25

questions. As always, the best way

1:25:28

to find me is through my

1:25:30

website, donnalishow.com, and that'll be in

1:25:32

the show notes as well. And

1:25:35

reach out to me for a conversation. One

1:25:38

of my superpowers that's

1:25:40

also my kryptonite is accessibility.

1:25:43

I'm that author

1:25:45

who will always email you back, even though

1:25:47

I hate emailing, always email you back within

1:25:49

a day if you send me an email

1:25:52

about the book. Same thing about

1:25:54

working together. I always make time, or even

1:25:56

just conversation, I make time for

1:25:58

any conversations with interesting

1:26:00

people. people if it

1:26:04

is exciting to both of us to

1:26:06

make it happen. So find me on

1:26:08

my website, donalashow.com. I've also got tons

1:26:10

of free stuff there that you can

1:26:12

download as well. Everything that we talked

1:26:14

about today, a lot of the things

1:26:16

that we talked about today are available

1:26:18

there to play with as well. Amazing.

1:26:21

I think we're going to create a lot more

1:26:23

superheroes with origin stories, superpowers,

1:26:25

work tonight, missions, impact, all the

1:26:28

things we've written about in your

1:26:30

book. Donna, thank

1:26:32

you so much for being here. Thank

1:26:35

you, Lenny. This was a treat. Bye,

1:26:37

everyone. Thank

1:26:40

you so much for listening. If you found

1:26:42

this valuable, you can subscribe to the show

1:26:44

on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast

1:26:47

app. Also, please consider giving

1:26:49

us a rating or leaving a review as

1:26:51

that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

1:26:54

You can find all past episodes or

1:26:56

learn more about the show at Lenny's

1:26:58

podcast.com. See you in the next

1:27:00

episode.