0:00

Many people told you your class at

0:02

Stanford made them feel like their entire

0:04

college tuition was worth it. Even more

0:06

rewarding for me are the, I'm pretty sure your

0:08

class just saved my marriage. I want to talk

0:10

about how to give feedback well. I feel that

0:12

you don't care and I feel you're being

0:15

insensitive are not feelings. And that's where we

0:17

make our biggest mistakes when it comes to

0:19

feedback. How do you avoid people getting

0:21

defensive? Questions that start with what, when,

0:23

where, how, stay away from why. I think it

0:25

might be helpful to talk about this concept that you call

0:27

the three realities. We don't understand that we

0:29

are only privy to two out of the three.

0:32

So I know what's going on for me and

0:34

I know what I did. I have no idea

0:36

what happened on your end. That's a really profound

0:38

point that anger is a secondary emotion. Really what's

0:40

going on is you're afraid or you're hurt. What

0:43

a disservice to not help people understand

0:45

that anger is a distancing emotion and

0:48

there are other emotions that are connecting.

0:54

Today, my guest is Carol Robin.

0:56

For over 20 years, Carol taught

0:59

the legendary course at Stanford's graduate

1:01

school of business nicknamed Touchy Feely,

1:03

technically called Interpersonal Dynamics, which helps

1:06

people learn how to build strong

1:08

relationships and become much more effective

1:10

leaders. She then went on

1:12

to start a nonprofit called Leaders in

1:14

Tech, which brings these same lessons to

1:16

leaders of high tech growth companies. And

1:18

she also wrote an incredibly impactful book

1:20

called Connect, which distills all the key

1:22

insights and lessons from her decades running

1:24

this course. I've had so

1:27

many friends go through the Stanford course

1:29

or the Leaders in Tech program and

1:31

every single one of them was transformed

1:34

in terms of how they relate to other people,

1:36

how they communicate and how they lead. In

1:38

my conversation with Carol, we talk about why we're

1:41

often trapped in mental models that we formed when

1:43

we were younger and how they now limit us

1:45

and limit our potential and our ways of seeing

1:47

the world. Why disclosing 15% more

1:51

than you naturally feel comfortable will make you

1:53

a more effective leader? Why there

1:55

are actually three realities around us at all times

1:58

and how that insight changes the world? The

2:00

way new willing to people. We also

2:02

get into how to give feedback to

2:04

anyone about anything why vulnerability is so

2:06

essential, the great leadership had a bill,

2:08

exceptionally relationships and why they're so important

2:11

and so much more. This is a

2:13

very special and very unique episode and

2:15

I'm so excited to bring it's you.

2:17

With that I bring you Carol Robin

2:19

after a short word from our sponsors

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5:15

Carol, thank you so much for being here.

5:18

Welcome to the podcast. Thank you

5:20

so much for having me, Lenny. I'm delighted to be here.

5:22

I've heard from so many people over the

5:24

years how much you and your course have

5:27

impacted their life. Both friends of mine and

5:29

also people, when I shared on Twitter that

5:31

you were coming on the podcast, so many

5:33

people left comments just like, oh my

5:35

God, that course and Carol's changed my life in so

5:37

many ways. So I am really excited

5:39

to have you here. I'm really honored to have you here.

5:42

Thank you. I wanted to

5:44

start with, when we were preparing for

5:46

this podcast, you shared this quote with me.

5:48

You told me that I was put

5:50

on this planet to help people

5:52

learn, that it's possible to learn

5:54

how to build and develop robust,

5:56

meaningful relationships. What are

5:59

robust? Meaningful relationships and worthy

6:01

important You are the important to

6:03

people. I think that. Most

6:06

people experience a richer, fuller,

6:08

more. Meaningful life when they have.

6:12

At least some high quality

6:14

relationships. Or. Maybe put the other way to

6:16

have none. It's unlikely you going

6:18

to experience. Quite as rich and

6:20

full a life. So.

6:23

I often talk about really subsist on a

6:25

continuum. At one end of the Continuum. Is

6:28

contact and Know connect. Or

6:31

you. We could also say dysfunction. I

6:34

buy away contact no connection other thousands

6:36

of Facebook friends. That. Is

6:38

those are not relationships and lives are

6:40

not friends. In my. Vocabulary.

6:44

At. The other end of the continuum is

6:46

what my call for data back for.

6:48

Nike Mccall Exceptional. And

6:50

that isn't exceptional. Relations have a particular set

6:52

of characteristics that I can get it took.

6:54

She to. But the for

6:56

even do that weren't suggesting and

6:59

I'm not suggesting that our that

7:01

everybody needs to turn every one

7:03

of their relationships into something exceptional

7:05

that would be first of all

7:07

impractical. Second of all unnecessary. Ah,

7:10

But it turns out that the skills you

7:12

need to move along that continue. Actually

7:15

take you from contacted no connection

7:17

and dysfunction to at least. Functional.

7:20

And robust. And. Then

7:22

was acquired those skills. They can decide

7:24

whether or not you wanna take a

7:26

few those relationships. A lot farther.

7:29

Take. Them all the way to exceptional, but at

7:31

least. You've. Gained

7:33

what you need to know in order to

7:35

get to functional and robust. And I believe

7:37

if we had a critical mass a

7:39

human beings on this planet who had

7:41

those skills and knew how to get

7:43

to at least robust and functional. We'll.

7:46

Just have more functional

7:48

teams in organizations. We'd

7:50

have stronger communities. We'd have.

7:53

More. Functional Schools. We might in

7:55

my wildest dreams even have a

7:57

more functional government. It's. I.

8:01

Am kind of my life's mission. Hopefully.

8:04

This episode is gonna actually do

8:06

exactly that. Help people here. Maps

8:08

are God's ears success. To

8:10

give people little more motivation to. Really

8:13

dig in and pay the buttons And to

8:15

this what are some of the benefits you've

8:17

seen from people moving further along. expect from

8:19

building more a bus relationships and more exceptional

8:22

relationships. I'm said taught a court a course

8:24

for many many years of staff or business

8:26

school of. And. And it was

8:28

a Stanford Business School by the way. wasn't

8:30

see hidden away some when the psychology department.

8:34

And and that's because the premise of

8:36

the course is that people do business

8:38

with people. Not. Ideas

8:41

Not products that machines that.

8:43

Ethics. Strategies, Nannies

8:45

and money they do. This is of people so

8:47

you'd better get the people far right if you

8:49

really. Want to succeed? In

8:52

that that interpersonal competence is

8:54

a determinant of both. Personal

8:56

and professional success. So.

9:00

To your question I I keep.

9:02

I've lost track of how many.

9:05

Hundreds of emails and. Then.

9:08

Calls. And visits I've had

9:10

from former students who come to tell

9:12

me I just became a Ceo. I'm

9:15

pretty sure I will see I just

9:17

raised my third round. I'm pretty sure

9:19

I owe it all to you. I

9:21

just figure out how my cofounder and

9:24

I are going to navigate. You.

9:26

Know this very difficult situation where are where

9:28

and thank you for everything he taught me.

9:31

And those are exceedingly satisfying and I'll

9:33

tell you even more. Even more rewarding

9:36

for me are the i'm pretty sure

9:38

You class to save my marriage. I.

9:41

Just reconciled my relationship with my brother who

9:44

I talk. To for two years because. He

9:46

voted for x and I voted. For

9:48

why we don't need to get into who

9:51

exit wire. And.

9:53

You. Know and I yet and now I get.

9:55

Thank you for finally writing a book because

9:57

you know my. My Vpn. Product

10:00

didn't go to Stanford and doesn't understand what

10:02

I'm talking about, so at least I bought

10:04

him a book. In general and now

10:07

have got more and more folks sending people to

10:09

leaders attack which we do that but later which

10:11

is. The. Program Is it that. Nonprofit.

10:13

I started. After. I left Stanford so that more and more

10:16

people can learn this. From. More than just a

10:18

book. Movie. And I think

10:20

what I love you also share this point that

10:22

many people told you. That that one

10:24

class at Stanford Business? Gorgeous Be was.

10:27

Made. Them feel like their entire college tuition

10:29

was worth it from that one costs which

10:31

is. So. Surprising because

10:33

it's called touchy Feely. It's has

10:35

nothing to do specifically a business

10:38

except. Of course it has everything to do. Business

10:40

success. City Kind

10:42

of follow that thread to neatest talk

10:44

about. What? This class is.

10:47

Trying. To do with the goal of this

10:49

class is. And what actually goes

10:51

on in this class and again people call

10:54

us cost that she feely. I think it's

10:56

technically called interpersonal dynamics. That's correct. Have kept

10:58

trying their arms. Yeah, what does is caused

11:00

by help people understand what goes on here.

11:03

Well. First. Of all the

11:05

quarter long class an editor at and I'm

11:08

really fundamental level, we've already really talked about

11:10

what goes on. Their people learn how to

11:12

be more interpersonal, a competent. Or. How

11:14

to connect with the. Other people. In

11:17

more functional ways. And what I mean

11:19

by connect is. You. Know.

11:22

Learn. How I need to show up!

11:24

In. Order for. You

11:27

to seal to trust me. In.

11:29

Order for you to feel closer to me.

11:32

In. Order for you to. Want

11:35

to spend more time with me in a

11:37

leadership? By the way? the spirit of the

11:39

leadership. Curriculum My time. In

11:41

a leadership sense. That. Makes you

11:43

more likely to want to follow

11:45

me. Because in the

11:48

end, that's the christian leaders should ask

11:50

themselves why somebody follow me. And

11:53

you know what? you could study: Other Leaders:

11:55

Why did somebody follow Steve Jobs Flight? Somebody

11:57

follow you know? Ursula.

12:00

You know it. it it. Xerox.

12:02

Why did some people follow Sheryl

12:04

Sandberg? Or. Why should somebody

12:06

follow me? Because I'm not any of those people. So.

12:09

The question I ask my students to sit

12:12

and and now my leaders, my leaders, the

12:14

tech participants to send is why somebody follow.

12:18

Know. There

12:20

are lots of reasons why people might follow

12:22

you. You've got a great vision that very

12:25

inspiring You have a product that they want

12:27

to bring in the the world sees think

12:29

they may make a lot of money if

12:31

they hit their wagon to use. Answer all

12:33

good reason. But. If you want

12:36

to build a sustainable long

12:38

term. Legacy. Then.

12:42

You. Probably want to think about.

12:46

Showing. Up in a way that other people.

12:49

Come to see you as a. Reference

12:52

figure. Somebody. In their life that

12:54

they say you know, when I grew up I want

12:56

to be more like that. And

12:59

that is a form of power reference lot. Of

13:01

research that supports this reference power. it's

13:04

it's you know you are referencing here.

13:07

And ah, and then people

13:09

are much more likely to.

13:12

Be. Opened your influence, And

13:15

open to working harder.

13:18

And open to doing some of the things

13:20

that. You. Believe we're

13:22

going to make you great. As. A.

13:25

Whole. Organization. The

13:27

classes quite unusual and matters. Not just a

13:30

bunch of lectures and talk. there's a lot

13:32

of experiential. Ah, Pieces.

13:35

Were you have to do quite uncomfortable things

13:37

in order to learn? How to do

13:39

this well as or producer and example Or to have

13:41

some of things you put people through. Whatever you're able

13:43

to share. Sure, I mean, I

13:46

think that. That. We

13:48

don't learn. To. Be and I

13:50

don't learn how to connect with you. By

13:53

reading about it in a book. Ah,

13:55

which by the way, his wife took us four years to

13:57

write a book because at the end of every. Chapter.

14:00

They see are things you can go

14:02

do with what you've learned in the

14:04

reading and. Likewise, In the

14:06

class. The. Lectures are like

14:09

scaffolding on which you can.

14:11

hang your experience that

14:13

most. Delivering happens in the small

14:16

groups called T Groups that he

14:18

stands for. Training.

14:20

Not therapy. And

14:23

sometimes they people think they sound like therapy

14:25

and they sometimes even express them as ceiling

14:27

A little bit like therapy, but that's how

14:30

they are. We. Call the

14:32

train groups and what happens in that

14:34

group is it. There's twelve participants and

14:36

to facilitators. And.

14:40

They are, for example, Given

14:44

a task. Like.

14:47

I might pair to students up and say

14:49

okay, you've got ten minutes. Allow.

14:51

The other person to get to know you. And.

14:54

That's the only instruction. A good. Case.

14:56

And I you and I kind of look at each other and were

14:59

like. Now. The heck that supposed to

15:01

mean? And. Then. You know, maybe

15:03

I share something about myself. Or

15:06

maybe I ask you a question. Or.

15:08

Who. Knows what I do with that and then who knows what

15:11

you do with our son. After ten minutes, And.

15:13

Ice then I stopped them and I say okay. So.

15:15

Take a moment. And

15:17

recognize. That. Uses had a

15:19

bunch of choices. That.

15:22

You actually primary the think that. You

15:25

had a choice Whether you began by. Sharing

15:28

something. Or. You wait to

15:30

the other person. To be. You had a

15:32

choice whether you begin with a question, which was a

15:34

nice safe. Place to be. Really?

15:36

You began with a disclosure. Ah,

15:39

Use and had an aperture your. Choices His

15:41

rectify. You responded to what your partner did.

15:44

And the Who course. Is

15:47

about having interactions and then

15:49

having. The. Ah,

15:51

the guidance and the space in

15:53

the time and the focus to

15:55

unpack what just happened. So.

15:57

Now you want to have more conversation with this.

16:00

The nervous. Or you would

16:02

treat. Or. You like to? Yeah?

16:04

Can I just get paired up with somebody else?

16:06

right? But. Nothing It's about it.

16:09

And then I put them into a second

16:11

conversation. I say, okay now having learned that

16:13

that by the way, one of the ways

16:15

we build. A relationship.

16:18

Is through disclosure. Ah,

16:21

to allowing ourselves to become more known.

16:24

So. That's a little mini lecture. And

16:26

then I sipping on go back into your pair. And

16:28

see whether or not you want to make some new choices.

16:32

And A And then you know. Of

16:35

course, that's all you know. I always say

16:37

confidentiality isn't very important aspect of all this

16:40

work. So in the pair conversations, in the

16:42

group conversations, I call them the Vegas rule.

16:44

What happened to Vegas stays in Vegas and

16:46

so I don't ask for any specifics, but

16:49

I'll ask them for. What? It

16:51

was there a qualitative difference between

16:53

the first and second conversation. And

16:56

they inevitably say oh my God the first

16:58

conversation composition I have in the bar or

17:00

die. Simply. And

17:03

the second conversation was it's a little

17:05

more uncomfortable. But. I sure feel

17:07

a lot more known. And

17:10

I think I know. My partner or little bit

17:12

more. And now they

17:14

had a little taste. Of what

17:16

it's going to be like. Maybe.

17:18

Example: So what I want to do with

17:20

the rest of our chat especially go through

17:23

many of the lessons and insights and lectures

17:25

that you given as course. Obviously they're Knoxville

17:27

to practice. The way they would practice and

17:29

a class but little before we get in there. Let's actually

17:31

talk about. So. There's as course at Stanford.

17:33

And you also now have a program called

17:36

Leaders and Tech. Where. People can anyone

17:38

can participate that on have to be going to

17:40

stand for business school. Talk

17:42

about what the sales and how people can participate if

17:44

they want to go deeper. And the supreme Soccer. So.

17:47

Leaders and Tech is is

17:49

a nonprofit that that to

17:51

My cofounders and I started

17:53

in the. Because in

17:55

January. Of twenty eighteen. We.

17:58

started it with a program called

18:00

the Fellows Program, which is a

18:02

10-month program that starts

18:04

with a four-day retreat that's like

18:07

touchy-feely on steroids, because touchy-feely is

18:09

a quarter-long class. And

18:11

then it continues on a

18:14

monthly basis for a day or half a day a

18:16

month to

18:18

get the rest of what we might call

18:21

Carol Robin curriculum. Because I also taught

18:23

a course called High Performance Leadership. I

18:25

also taught Leadership Coaching

18:27

and Mentoring. So there were other

18:29

things besides touchy-feely. Then

18:31

what happened was that our fellows,

18:34

who went to our first couple of cohorts, said,

18:37

because the Fellows Program

18:39

is open to founders, either

18:42

current or previous founders

18:45

or co-founders, of

18:47

a company that has not gone public. And

18:52

what we're trying to do is we're trying to

18:55

influence the cultures of the future Facebooks and Googles

18:58

of the world, not the current ones. And

19:01

so that program has a more

19:05

limited number of people that

19:07

can apply to it. However, one of

19:09

the things that happened was we got a lot of people who

19:11

said, but I'm not a founder, and I still want that. And

19:14

we also had fellows who went through the program that

19:16

said, what about my people? My

19:18

chief people officer, my VP

19:21

of engineering. So then we

19:23

started just a

19:25

four-day version of the touchy-feely,

19:28

which anybody can apply to. I

19:31

mean, actually, not anybody. You do have to be a manager

19:33

of some kind. And you do have to be in tech

19:36

for now. So

19:38

that's where people

19:40

get the real on-the-ground

19:43

experience. They

19:45

all get a copy of the book. And of

19:47

course, if you don't want to go through the program, or

19:50

it's not the right time, or you want

19:53

to start somewhere else, you could start with

19:55

the book. But if

19:58

you just buy the book and you read it, you're

20:00

not gonna learn anything, don't waste your money. If

20:03

you're gonna buy the book, buy at least one

20:05

other copy and give it to somebody with whom

20:07

you actually want to develop a stronger relationship and

20:09

read it together and

20:11

do the activities at the end of every book and then

20:13

you start to get a taste of what it's like to

20:16

go through the course. So

20:18

just to close the loop there, how do people learn more and apply

20:20

and join the

20:23

group? www.leadersintech.org. Awesome

20:26

and around the time this episode comes out there's a

20:29

deadline roughly around that time. There

20:32

is, around when this episode

20:34

comes out. So we do these four day retreats

20:36

all year so there's no

20:38

deadline to apply for that. But if

20:40

you're interested in the ten month program

20:42

that starts with the four day retreat and

20:45

then has all that additional stuff then the

20:47

deadline for that is

20:50

May 1. Actually it might

20:53

even, how many days? It might be April 30th.

20:55

I don't remember how many days there are in April but

20:58

it's either the last day of April or May 1. April

21:00

30th. Yeah, there you go. So it's

21:02

probably April 30th. So check

21:06

it out. You

21:08

have to be nominated in order to

21:10

apply. Don't let that stop you.

21:13

If you look at it all and you decide you

21:15

want to apply, just

21:18

apply and say, I listened

21:20

to Carol Robin on this podcast and told

21:22

me to apply. Don't

21:25

waste time trying to find somebody to nominate you.

21:27

How amazing. Okay. Or you're going

21:29

to be flooded with applications. Again

21:32

from your mouth to God's ears. Okay

21:35

so let's get into a lot of the stuff that

21:37

you teach. So you mentioned progressive disclosure so that might

21:40

be a good place to start. What's the lesson

21:42

there? What is it that people get wrong? Why

21:44

is that important? So first

21:46

of all, you

21:48

know, when we

21:51

disclose, we make ourselves

21:53

more vulnerable. And

21:55

vulnerability and disclosure tend to be reciprocal. If I

21:57

hold my cards, you know, I'm not going to

22:00

really close, you're going to hold

22:02

your cards even closer. So

22:04

one of the things to learn to

22:06

do is to experiment

22:09

and what works with one

22:11

person isn't going to work with somebody

22:13

else necessarily because every relationship is its

22:15

own fabulously

22:17

interesting and always unfolding

22:21

dynamic is to experiment

22:24

with allowing myself to be a little bit

22:26

more known and

22:28

then seeing what happens and

22:30

whether or not you reciprocate. Now

22:33

a really important concept we teach that you and

22:35

I have talked about before is called the

22:38

15% rule and

22:40

what that is is that

22:42

we all have a comfort zone.

22:44

Imagine a circle in the

22:46

middle called the comfort zone, these pictures

22:48

in the book and we don't think twice

22:51

about what we say. And

22:53

then there is a danger zone which

22:55

is a circle way on the outside, so

22:57

these are concentric circles if you're not watching

22:59

the video and that I

23:01

never in a million years say that or

23:04

tell you that. But there's this

23:06

really important circle in the middle which

23:08

is called the learning zone. You

23:10

know in academia they have to have fancy words for very

23:12

easy concepts so it's called the zone of

23:15

proximal development but basically it means that's where you

23:17

learn and you have

23:19

to step outside your comfort zone in

23:22

order to learn anything and especially

23:24

in order to create a

23:26

deeper connection with somebody. However

23:29

my students used to say but Carol the

23:31

minute I step outside my comfort zone how do

23:33

I know I'm not in my danger zone? I

23:36

hear this learning zone but how do

23:39

I know I didn't go too far? So

23:41

we came up with the 15%. So

23:45

step a little bit outside your comfort zone.

23:47

If you step a little bit outside your

23:49

comfort zone you're very unlikely to freak yourself

23:51

or the other person out but you'll

23:54

know, you'll feel a little bit. You'll be like

23:56

okay I feel just a little uncomfortable saying this but I think

23:59

I'm going to try. Then depending on how

24:01

you respond, Then you

24:03

know we settle into a new

24:05

comfort zone. A slightly larger. Circle.

24:08

Which. Is our comfort zone with each other?

24:10

then? we know fifteen percent beyond that. And

24:13

that's how we'll learn and grow and deepen our

24:16

relationship. The same thing, by the way, applies to

24:18

Feed Back when we get into that later. So.

24:21

We have to step outside. Of Comfort

24:23

Zone in order to deepen

24:25

and strengthen relationships. What?

24:27

Are some examples of. Something.

24:29

Outside your comfort zone disclosing like what does that

24:31

the you find people may be aren't disclosing enough

24:34

of. Were. Areas they should disclose

24:36

is like challenges are having their life. As

24:38

well. Of course, context matters in

24:41

L. it depends on you know

24:43

who. Would who I'm talking

24:45

to. With. This, and by the way,

24:48

Disclosure: When I I'm a to

24:50

underscore a concept that we also

24:52

very much teach which is appropriate.

24:54

Disclose if I the Vp of

24:56

marketing and I get up in

24:59

front of the troops and I

25:01

say well third month it arose

25:03

last share. And. You know I

25:05

have no idea what's happening or why or what

25:07

to do about it. and you know I'm I'm

25:09

feeling pretty crappy about myself. I'm nine sure I

25:11

should be your Vp of Marketing. That

25:14

feel vulnerable and disclosure but it

25:16

is not appropriate. Vulnerability in that

25:18

is not what we're talking. The

25:22

flip side of that. Is that I get

25:24

up and for the troops and I pretend nothing is

25:26

happening. That doesn't

25:28

build my credibility either. So.

25:32

I couldn't get up and say okay, probably

25:34

no secret the most of you that's of

25:36

a third month, cetera, with last share. And.

25:39

Man. I wish I could stand up here until you.

25:41

I know exactly what's happening and I know exactly what we

25:43

should do about it. But. I don't. And

25:46

I have never needed Jewel more.

25:49

Know who would you rather? fellow? Know.

25:53

So. You. Know I

25:55

seek. In. In business and

25:57

for a very long time. You.

26:00

Know readers who are socialized to. First

26:02

of all. Least. All

26:04

feelings in the parking lot. I've got an anecdote

26:07

I often tell about. My very first job.

26:09

With. I'm happy. That silly as you

26:11

want a and can. Get

26:14

out that There's no place. There's no

26:16

place for vulnerability or for. Sharing.

26:19

Feelings. Are You kidding? Felix In The

26:22

Workplace. That I ask you, how

26:24

do you inspire anybody with i'm feeling. How

26:26

do you motivate anybody with have feelings? How

26:29

do you become seen as a

26:31

real person? With. No feelings.

26:34

Yeah. Why should somebody who is

26:36

a robot who's robotic follow you?

26:40

And the answer that sometimes in the

26:42

valley especially is. Because they're gonna

26:44

follow you for a while because you got a

26:46

really great idea in the minute they got another

26:48

choice. Man, they are out there. And

26:51

so a lot of this connect so kind of as

26:53

broad. Com piece of advice he

26:55

was give people just is and focus on

26:57

vulnerability. You spend a lot of

26:59

time teaching people just the power vulnerability in

27:01

which is not intuitive. Lot of people. Are.

27:04

Try to move away some. Showing.

27:06

Vulnerability. It was his quote. I saw

27:08

somewhere that a willingness to be vulnerable

27:10

makes you more, not less influential as

27:13

a leader. You. Sakara. Why that is?

27:15

Yeah. You ask? you ask me whether or not I held

27:17

any contrary and views and I said yeah, that's one of

27:19

them. I actually think that

27:21

a leader who is willing to be

27:23

appropriately. Is.

27:25

A stronger leader. And.

27:30

The. So ah, I'll give you this the

27:32

sword example of what happened to me.

27:35

Because. It tells you that encompasses lot of

27:37

what with the timer. So in Nineteen seventy

27:39

Five, I went to work for largest industrial.

27:41

Automation company in the world. As

27:44

the first woman in a non

27:46

clerical job. As a sales

27:49

engineer. And yes,

27:51

I am old. Ah but the

27:53

dinosaurs. Were not roaming the or. And

27:55

the first thing I learned was.

27:58

Yes, Yana, you leave. Feelings in

28:00

the parking lot. Whatever. You

28:02

do. You Never. Talk about your

28:04

feelings or express feelings in the

28:06

was unprofessional. Of what. I

28:09

got pretty good at it. Sucks. I got very good

28:11

at. Get ironic given that I

28:13

eventually became known as the queen of touchy feely

28:16

as to Telford. but at the time I got.

28:18

Very good at I'm not a career academic. Have

28:20

had six different careers. And.

28:23

Ten. Years later, I met an off

28:25

site. And I've. Got

28:27

I've been promoted many times, have now running

28:30

a fifty billion dollar region. I've got a

28:32

half a dozen guys that. Work. For me.

28:34

And. Yes, ladies, if you're listening, I did finally six

28:36

that, but at that point I still hadn't. Played

28:39

six that. And were sitting

28:41

there and. I had an idea

28:43

doesn't matter what it was gonna get a little excited

28:45

about it and I got crickets. And a

28:47

golem works. I didn't like a crick. And

28:49

I was like. You guys, this could

28:52

be really cool Lose which to see how

28:54

cool this could be. And one of my

28:56

guys leans in. Looks. At me and says

28:58

carol. It's. Like water in the corner of

29:00

your i. Am I got? Are you

29:02

gonna fry? And then he

29:04

says. Are your human

29:07

install? Are.

29:10

You human after. All. And

29:12

then Amber stuck. And

29:14

I tore up our gender and I said, you don't

29:17

think I'm human, I don't think there. Is anything

29:19

were important for a spin are also

29:21

talking about than that. And

29:23

we spent the next two days talking

29:25

about who we were. Why? Were

29:28

there? What we want it, what was

29:30

important to us or we can help each other.

29:32

To this day I believe that was the day

29:34

became a leader. To. This day I know

29:36

for a fact any of them would follow me.

29:38

any. To. Help

29:40

people build muscle and start

29:42

to practice this to. Try.

29:45

Fifteen percent disclosure try to be a

29:47

little more vulnerable. their neither. Examples.

29:49

Are just gonna tidbits you can share of like your

29:51

something you should start doing. More

29:53

and more. Let's start with. You

29:56

can start admitting mistakes, especially

29:59

when every. That he knows you made

30:01

one. If

30:03

you actually lose a lot

30:05

more credibility by ignoring it,

30:08

And you can start again

30:10

sixteen percent. In. By.

30:14

Experimenting. With. At.

30:16

Disclosing sharing. What's

30:19

going on for you? particularly with

30:21

regard to feelings? A

30:23

little bit more often. And

30:25

so there's a reason the course is called

30:27

Touchy Feely. Emphasis on the. Ceiling.

30:30

Of a touchy. And that's because

30:32

the the that so much of our

30:34

ability to develop. This. Confidence

30:36

comes down to the

30:38

appropriate use of feelings.

30:41

That's. Why a vocabulary feeling? How sad

30:43

is that We had to develop a

30:45

vocabulary feeling because that's how hard it

30:47

is for people to even access what

30:49

they're feeling. So there's a vocab they're

30:51

feelings in the syllabus in the course

30:54

in the appendix of the book. every.

30:56

Every member every person ever goes through will lead us.

30:58

And tech program gets it. And.

31:00

And. It starts with.

31:04

Allowing yourself to be no, not just

31:06

in terms of suits and. Ceilings.

31:10

Give meaning to sift. Let me

31:12

give you another example if I tell ya what. Zip

31:14

lining? More. That pay interesting maybe

31:17

alerts. And the about me made me a Starbucks

31:19

to start to make up a sorts interesting stories of

31:21

of the. But if I tell you I

31:23

went zip line the and I was terrified. But.

31:25

I went because that I saw course by my

31:28

family and I didn't want to be left alone.

31:30

The back and then miss out. What?

31:33

You learned a lot more about me, Did? One.

31:37

Of my. Most. Satisfying

31:39

moments. At a at

31:41

the very first Leaders in Tech Retreat.

31:44

We ever did. Was

31:46

of those was. Of. Us have a former

31:48

student of mine. Who had

31:50

taken touchy feely. This. Years

31:53

before. And. Who said? you know?

31:55

Based on everything I learned fifteen years ago, From.

31:58

Carol. i couldn't imagine what I

32:00

would learn if I came back, so I'm back. And

32:03

he said, but Carol or no Carol,

32:06

I will not sit around for four

32:08

days talking about how we're all crushing

32:10

it. I will

32:12

leave. I

32:15

was like, oh, I was so proud. And

32:22

now, there are times when a leader does have

32:24

to stand up and say, yeah, we're crushing it.

32:29

Another really, really important thing that people

32:31

don't understand is that all of this

32:33

is very nuanced and

32:35

very context dependent. And

32:38

most people want unanswered. Tell me what

32:40

to do when x happens. Well,

32:43

did x happen with this person or this person?

32:45

What kind of relationship do you have with them in the

32:47

first place? Are there 20 people in the room or 250? Is

32:51

this being recorded? There's

32:53

just so many different things. Who's going

32:55

to have access to it? There's so many

32:57

things that you have to consider. And especially

33:01

today, I mean, I

33:05

know I'm old and this will sound predictable, but I

33:07

am not a social media fan. I

33:10

think it has done more to destroy

33:12

strong relationships and

33:16

to destroy people's ability

33:18

to even learn or

33:21

think about what it takes to have a

33:23

great relationship. We

33:26

could do a whole podcast on that. I

33:29

have a former leaders and tech

33:31

fellow who sent me this fantastic. Here's

33:33

another great example. Sent me

33:36

an email and

33:38

maybe called it. I don't remember

33:40

if it does matter. So I had my

33:43

all hands meetings or every Monday morning. On

33:45

Friday, I found out we had missed a

33:48

major deadline on a product release.

33:50

And I spent the entire weekend

33:52

just furious, pissed

33:54

off. Let me know how you

33:56

are 40 years Old nothing's

33:58

been put in. Sunday afternoon

34:01

I remembered. Part.

34:03

Of what you taught us was that

34:05

anger? Is. Often a secondary

34:07

emotion. And

34:09

often under anger is

34:11

either fear. For. Her.

34:15

And then I realized oh yeah, I'm

34:17

actually feeling pretty scared here. That.

34:19

Nobody is as worried about this

34:22

is I hear. And

34:24

so he said so on Monday morning instead of

34:26

getting up, And. Blasting them all as

34:28

I was prepared to do. I. Got

34:31

up and I said so. Game.

34:33

I. Am. Deeply worried and

34:35

afraid that I'm the only person

34:38

here. Who. Is as

34:40

concerned about this missed deadline as I

34:42

am and what it's going. To need

34:44

to our customers. And. He

34:46

said I have never had. My.

34:48

Troops rally. To

34:51

six. Something faster. So

34:56

appropriate use of ceilings.

34:59

You. Know. Is. Is is something most

35:01

people don't know how to do. They don't even

35:03

know how to access the feeling. Yeah, I told

35:05

this particular anecdote about anger being a secondary motion

35:07

at a at a. Very big workshop.

35:11

And a number of months ago and and of

35:13

woman walked up to. Me and had why. Thank.

35:15

You so much. I've never

35:17

understood that. My husband. Carries.

35:20

So much fear and so much hurt.

35:23

Because. He only ever of leads

35:25

with anger. In. Never even occurred

35:27

to me something else might be going on. And.

35:31

Anger is a distancing emotion.

35:34

Whereas hurt seer.

35:37

Sadness. Loneliness, Happiness.

35:40

Joy are all connecting and

35:42

moves. So. Those kinds

35:44

of things people learn when they come through our

35:47

progress. Oh man, you're blowing my mind.

35:49

Already. I I can see why marriages are

35:51

saved by a lot of these things. It's it's.

35:54

That's. A really profound point. You're just

35:56

making their that anger as a secondary motion.

35:59

Really what's going? You're free to your hurt.

36:02

And. There anything more you can out there is a still

36:04

very important. That. Is normally

36:06

what's going on except we've all been

36:08

socialized, Not. To be vulnerable,

36:11

especially in business. And.

36:14

Naming any of those things makes us

36:16

feel vulnerable, so somehow of being angry

36:18

doesn't make us feel vulnerable. That's the

36:20

okay emotion as long as you. Express

36:23

it in an appropriate way. But.

36:26

It's a distancing emotion would a

36:28

disservice to add to it to

36:30

everybody in in business. Would exists.

36:32

What a disservice to. Processional.

36:35

Learning. To. That

36:37

to not help people understand that

36:39

anger is a distancing emotion and

36:41

that there are other emotions that

36:43

are appropriate and that are connecting.

36:46

As. Kind of so beautifully to your first point. We

36:48

talked about of being vulnerable and. Disclosing.

36:50

More and how I completely see how if

36:53

you're just to see or I'm afraid. Of

36:55

this how that. Brings. People closer

36:57

to you and. Feels. Like they

37:00

will trust you more vs. You.

37:02

Not sure enough, right? And

37:04

you know it connects to something else you and I talked

37:06

about. One. Of the one of the biggest

37:08

guess i think people get out of. Taking.

37:11

Touchy feely are going to lose and tech program.

37:13

Or even read the book. Is. That.

37:16

They learn that they hold certain

37:18

some mental model and beliefs and

37:21

ascension. Yes, I do this. That.

37:23

Will help. Or. If I don't to

37:25

this. This. Will. And

37:27

those are believed in assumptions that we

37:30

developed very early in our careers. Like.

37:32

I did. Whatever you do you leave the

37:34

parking that your feelings in the parking. Or

37:37

any serve me really.

37:39

Well, initially if I burst out crying

37:41

two months into the job at a

37:43

never ended up running a fifty million

37:45

dollar reach it right? And.

37:48

Then he started. It

37:51

over serve me and then it costs me. Because

37:53

I never had a reason the update it. Because.

37:56

I never realized I was paying a post. For.

37:58

Continuing to. hold that belief

38:03

that drove my behaviors. And

38:07

you know, mental models then, we

38:09

developed them very early and they're

38:11

grooved and we need

38:13

new experiences in

38:15

order to even believe that they are

38:19

maybe subject to testing.

38:23

You know, see maybe this is, I mean

38:25

I gotta, I will forever be grateful to

38:27

this fellow who said, oh my God, are

38:29

you human after all? I was like, what?

38:33

Did this ever happen that I became seen

38:35

as non-human? Never? Right?

38:39

So, and you know, again, we go back

38:41

to some of the stuff we talked about earlier which

38:43

is that leaders, if

38:46

a leader doesn't show up with

38:48

a willingness to update

38:52

their mental and their

38:54

beliefs, they're certainly not going to

38:56

inspire anybody else to do that.

38:59

I'm glad you got here because this is exactly what's going to

39:01

go next is this mental model challenge

39:04

we ran into where we developed these mental models early

39:06

on and then they end up hurting us

39:08

later in life. Are there kind of common

39:10

mental models people have that hurt them as

39:12

they grow or is it very particular and dependent

39:14

on people's experience?

39:18

I mean, there are some that are pretty tried

39:20

and true. I mean, the first one is if

39:24

I tell you more about me, you'll

39:26

take advantage of me or

39:28

if I am vulnerable

39:30

with you or disclosing, you'll think I'm

39:33

weak and

39:36

inevitably somebody has had a time in their

39:38

life where that has been true and maybe

39:40

it was true a lot but

39:42

then they decide that's the only

39:44

outcome that's ever possible as

39:47

opposed to part of growing

39:49

up and becoming more mature

39:51

is differentiating and being more

39:54

discretionary and who we

39:56

open up to and how we open up to them. You

40:00

know if I ever have a colleague

40:02

who often says. We. Used

40:04

to think about these things

40:06

as dials that switches. It's.

40:09

Not an all or know I don't tell

40:11

you everything or nothing. I.

40:13

Don't share every single feeling. I've

40:16

got Four? none. It's.

40:18

A dial and you know you move it.

40:20

It's it's deeper, separate. Another

40:22

mental model people hold and this becomes

40:24

a huge. Learning. For people who go through

40:27

the through. Our program is.

40:30

People. Think. If. I

40:32

give you feedback. it's kind of the relation. To

40:34

weaken their relationship. Wow.

40:37

That's a really common even are of

40:39

is always one I've more feedback I

40:41

want to know I can be better

40:43

but everybody believes the giving feedback. Is.

40:45

Gonna create a problem. And

40:48

that's because most people have been sacked, been

40:51

on the receiving end of feedback poorly given,

40:53

or they'd given feedback in in a in

40:55

a not very good way in a step

40:57

in piles of do do. Yes,

41:00

And. It does

41:02

not mean feedback. Ruins. Really

41:04

ships, It means seed back the way you've always

41:06

seen it. done. or done. It. Ruins growth.

41:08

it suits at pretty important.

41:11

And then one of the things that we aren't

41:13

people with I think one of the most powerful

41:16

pieces of learning that people get. Is.

41:18

Learning how to give feedback. In.

41:20

A way that is going to

41:22

build relationships. As opposed

41:25

to an end, it's going to build a

41:27

relationship. If. You use if you

41:29

see that my reason for wanting to

41:31

give it to you is that I'm

41:33

invested in you. And. And. It's

41:37

similarly we hold mental models about expressing what we

41:40

call pinches which are just you know those little

41:42

things that people do. Then we just like ask

41:44

my comic the deal out of it and legacy.

41:47

So. That mental model. Is

41:49

a small thing. A.

41:51

Problem is. If. You

41:53

if I'm doing something that's mildly irritating. And

41:55

you know, Tommy. Then. What am I gonna

41:57

do? You don't have defendant? And

42:01

then are you going to get less irritated or more. Irritated

42:03

more into murder to yeah. That's

42:05

my get less irritated or doesn't change. then

42:07

You're right. I sincerely. But.

42:09

If I have the wherewithal

42:12

to notice, This

42:14

why we talk about to and ten it's a

42:16

comeback to to notice I'm getting more and more

42:18

activated, more and more irritated. Then.

42:21

It's really. Important for me

42:23

to say something. And by the

42:25

way, address it while it's still small. And.

42:28

Then it will get big. That's.

42:30

What we call it in talk about a

42:32

pinch before becomes a crunch. Then it becomes

42:34

a much bigger deal. That.

42:37

Most of time with their it's not

42:39

worth it so I always tell students

42:41

okay substitute. The pronoun substitute

42:43

the word it. For. I.

42:46

You. We. Are.

42:48

Not worth it. You're. Not worth it.

42:50

We're not worth it. And. Then ask

42:52

yourself again whether it's worth raising. This

42:57

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the future. With the A sixteen

43:49

the podcast. And.

43:51

Want to talk about how to give feedback? well? but I

43:53

think it might be helpful to talk about the. Concept.

43:56

The you call the three realities and the net can

43:58

they they get sets up will. This Yeah and

44:00

in fact it is. It is sentimental to

44:02

giving feedback one. Awesome! So they're very

44:05

related. You were right, right. You were. right?

44:07

On. And you know what?

44:09

Let me just take a moment for I mention that

44:11

said to antenna and and this is in the book

44:14

But you know we're all equipped with you and ten

44:16

a. Is tracking what's

44:18

going on for me? my internal and him?

44:21

The. Other one is kind of trying to

44:23

pick up signals and what might be going

44:25

on for you. And first of all, recognizing

44:27

those to attend exist. second of a, learning

44:29

how to hone our ability to pick up

44:32

subtler and subtler signal make us more interpersonal.

44:34

A company. For.

44:36

Also, I'm a big believer in meditation and. Awareness.

44:39

So. Anyway, if if

44:41

we now fast forward to your

44:43

question about how to give feedback

44:46

well which has to do with

44:48

understanding the three realities it starts

44:50

with in any exchange between two

44:52

people. There. Are three?

44:54

Reality. There. Is.

44:57

My intent. So. I

44:59

see the world. My. Background:

45:02

my history. There

45:04

is what I do. Or.

45:06

Say or don't do. Verbal

45:08

or nonverbal. So my realities Reality

45:11

number one. My behavior, verbal and

45:13

nonverbal is reality number two. And

45:16

what happens on your end.

45:19

Is reality number three? The. Impact

45:22

of what I've said or done. You.

45:24

Know how you see. Things. You.

45:27

Know your background so. There's this

45:29

three distinct reality. And

45:32

the trouble we get into when we

45:34

don't recognize that. Those. Three

45:37

Reality Sexist. Is.

45:40

We. Don't understand that we're only privy

45:42

to two. Other out of the three.

45:45

So. I know what's going on for me. And.

45:48

I know what I did. Have no

45:50

idea what happened on your and you

45:52

know what I did. And.

45:55

That's how it impacted you. See

45:57

that you're too! Are

46:00

the only one week share is the

46:02

one in the middle income and the

46:05

behaviors. right? Now.

46:07

We draw a metaphorical

46:09

net. Between. Reality

46:11

Number One. Reality Number two. To.

46:15

Help people. Understand and

46:17

and in anybody's ever taken that

46:20

he. Feely in no matter which

46:22

context. Knows. This.

46:24

The see stay on your side of the

46:26

net. Meaning. Stick

46:29

with the to realities you know,

46:31

cause we get in trouble the

46:33

minute. We start thinking we know the other

46:35

person's reality. right?

46:38

So. I I've I've told

46:40

this anecdote many times. It might even be

46:42

in the book, but ah. I

46:44

come home. I'm sorry my husband comes home.

46:47

After. A very long day in the

46:49

valley. He. Was an executive. I've got

46:52

two little kids in said that a two year

46:54

old. I've been waiting for him to

46:56

come home. I come running. Into the

46:58

front room in those days, but way he

47:00

was to the newspapers he's reading. The newspaper

47:02

and I say oh my God Oh my God

47:04

your whole my Kids with Weights auto would have

47:06

been I kept we would have that works. Why

47:08

are we living Apollo? Thirteen percent on I want

47:10

to raise kids about as a terrible down a

47:13

good enough I wish that new nursery school as

47:15

Is as even opened it's already closed. Oh my

47:17

God. And you know

47:19

she says isn't. right?

47:23

So. Then. I say.

47:25

You're. Not listening. And

47:28

by the way as people been taught i messages

47:30

i feel that you're not listening is exactly the

47:32

same thing and the never single feeling word in

47:34

it. I

47:36

don't know whether he was missing and. I'm

47:39

over the net. I'm in his court.

47:42

Unless. I'm in his head. I don't know there was listening or

47:44

not. But. Then he says he

47:47

I was listening. You're all booked up with you waited.

47:49

In the nursery school actually smell like this?

47:51

Yeah, you're all worked up with an inner

47:53

school. Had the Moping Robinson. Now.

47:55

I get. A little bit more.

47:58

Activated. And. Hey.

48:01

How can you not care? For.

48:04

It's while he didn't say i don't care city. I

48:07

don't know whether kids are not. And

48:09

by the way, and and you know, how

48:11

can you be so and says it and

48:13

I feel that you don't care and I

48:15

feel you're being insensitive or not. Ceilings. Their

48:18

attribution to and imputed motors And

48:20

that's where we make. Our biggest mistakes

48:22

when it comes to seats. And.

48:26

What? That says is that makes the other person

48:28

defensive. So. Calling

48:31

my husband insensitive the most insensitive thing in the

48:33

world because his when the most sensitive people on

48:35

the planet. So.

48:38

It. Wasn't until I learn to stay on

48:40

my side of the net. And.

48:42

Say. So. When I

48:44

speak and I'm all worked up about

48:46

something. And the

48:48

only thing I get back from

48:51

you are either A Grant. For.

48:54

An asset bless repetition of what

48:56

I just said. That's.

48:58

Reality Number To anybody watching the video

49:00

would say that's what happened. I

49:02

don't feel heard. He.

49:05

Could say yeah you do. And

49:07

when I don't feel heard, I feel hurt.

49:09

Natural distance. And the

49:11

reason I'm telling you that. Is

49:13

because I can't be here for. For.

49:16

You in the way I want to be. When.

49:18

I feel that. So.

49:20

The formula is when you

49:23

do insert behavior. I

49:25

seal pull out the

49:27

vocabulary of feelings. And

49:30

I'm telling you this because or I'm

49:33

hoping the outcome of you knowing this

49:35

is. And

49:37

so then what happened as he said. We'll.

49:40

See what? my undivided attention Than you gotta give me

49:42

some time to unwind when I get home. What?

49:45

A reasonable request. I.

49:47

Said we'll hum Some communities that are no.

49:49

Half an hour is like half an hour

49:51

of a counting the minutes. About five minutes.

49:53

We settled on fifteen. But and by the

49:55

way, that is the purpose. Of

49:57

Cp. When it's constructive.

50:00

That move into a

50:02

problem solving conversation. Don't

50:04

change the other person. Move.

50:07

Into. Behaviors.

50:09

That will work better. For both of the.

50:13

Moving. And this sort of structure so the

50:16

starkly to shared in this a similar ten. Nonviolent.

50:19

Communication Yes. Structure of Get Caught It is.

50:21

so there's books people can read on the

50:23

sorry great. Are. Of our skin

50:25

before. but that's okay. Oh wow, okay up

50:27

as a now. And.

50:30

I will say anything that anything that

50:32

spread. The Word and

50:35

anything that helps people learn. How

50:38

to edit her? engage with each other in

50:40

ways that build relationship. I'm I'm off. And

50:42

love that attitude. Okay

50:45

so the search for get us when you

50:47

do some behavior. I feel. And.

50:49

emotion. And by the

50:51

way there's this is there like a flyer or

50:53

and out. I think the book has these of

50:55

get like emotions or get caught My feeling that.

50:57

Yet when the vocabulary of ceilings is

50:59

up, his appendix in. The book Okay, great

51:02

as is the formula. Oh okay, great.

51:04

so by the both if you wanna get really

51:06

good at the stuff of myth, Is.

51:08

there anything on my we complain people to your. We

51:10

got we got a picture of the i'll send you

51:12

a couple slides. Perfect.

51:15

And then you can just say featured the slides.

51:17

May think so. Link to that and the sooner. And

51:19

I couldn't like. As an as you talk

51:21

through all of these lessons and pieces of

51:23

advice, it makes so much sense why this

51:25

is something you need to do hands on.

51:27

Because. I matter what's happening in the

51:29

class years, you do this with someone and then. You.

51:32

Hear that reality and it

51:34

often surprises you exactly. Because.

51:37

Us and we say it takes to

51:39

to no one. I

51:42

don't know what impact I'm having

51:45

on you until you tell me.

51:49

And I have to be willing to be a little

51:52

vulnerable to ask. Me: And. If

51:54

we go back to that first activity that you

51:56

ask me to describe way the beginning. Then.

51:59

We put the back pairs and we say

52:01

okay. Now. None He

52:03

learned a little bit about feedback. Tell.

52:06

Your partner What they did. that made it

52:08

easier for you to disclose. More. Ah,

52:11

and be more willing to be more vulnerable

52:14

and or what they did made it a

52:16

little harder. And.

52:19

That right there in the moment you'll are some about

52:21

yourself that you might never have known. Somebody.

52:24

Says you know you looked away as I was talking you might

52:26

not have is unknown. He does. He. Look

52:28

at your watch. And

52:30

I you know, What? Am I am?

52:33

I love this one. I greatest moments when I was

52:35

teaching ones that I to I asked a question I

52:37

was teaching at a in a big lecture hall. At.

52:39

The law school and sit in didn't have any.

52:42

Clock some. And. I

52:44

asked a question and a student began answer

52:46

it and I just glanced at my watch.

52:49

Discuss it all turns cigarette where I was in

52:51

own in time for terms of when I had

52:53

to wrap up. And. He walked up

52:55

to me after class and he said you know professor.

52:58

I. Felt disrespected for new Looked at your

53:00

watch while I was answering. A

53:04

hug them. For. That will

53:06

first to ask them as it was okay. Is

53:08

it okay if I use as that I heard

53:10

of success. John I love her

53:12

so much of his of like we never get to see back

53:14

and realize we know no one ever tells us. The.

53:16

Thing you did is distracting them, annoying

53:18

them. Making. Them feel like they're not being

53:21

heard and so. And then guess what? Then he

53:23

leaves and that some he says how was that he says

53:25

are you know she's really. Disrespectful. And.

53:27

Then a bright and then pretty soon nobody.

53:29

Nobody's ever even been there, but my reputation

53:31

is that I don't respect. soon. Stuff

53:34

gets control. Now and

53:36

and like you wish people would tell you

53:38

right, like everybody wants this but it's so

53:41

hard in a comfortable. To. Tell

53:43

anyone negative feedback. Which

53:45

by the way, I never use the word negative. Who.

53:47

Went on tape. Okay, okay. So.

53:50

Feedback is either

53:52

constructive. Or. Complimentary.

53:56

Constructive. Feedback is there's something

53:58

you're doing that is. Problematic.

54:01

In. The purpose of it is let's move to a

54:03

problem solving conversation like with and the in the.

54:06

The purpose. Of kinds of complementary feedback

54:08

is. While. That's the third

54:10

time you've handed in that report.

54:13

Early. And. Completely. And you

54:15

even went above and beyond and did this in

54:17

this. I can't tell you how much I appreciate

54:19

that. How lucky I feel that you. Work.

54:21

For me. And is I'm telling you this

54:23

because if is ever something that you want that we're

54:25

not giving you. Let's. Talk But I

54:28

won't make sure you know that I want to talk about. By

54:30

the way, same formula. Not.

54:32

Compare that the nice job Thanks!

54:36

right? All feedback. Is.

54:38

Data. So.

54:40

All feedback is positive. They.

54:43

That more data is always better than listed.

54:46

I agree and Pepper and that's a great listener. To.

54:49

May be made us even more practical for listeners.

54:51

That or maybe work and products and say they

54:53

have to give feedback. Of

54:55

know product design work to a colleague

54:57

who. Did. Something wrong? Learn example:

54:59

the future of just Like years late in

55:02

the workplace. Time. That you

55:04

asset because. First. of all

55:06

we're not a my performance he back. And.

55:09

Or not necessarily tell you but

55:11

feedback on the task. What?

55:14

We're talking about his interpersonal feedback and

55:16

the reason it's so important is that

55:18

if you don't take care of that.

55:21

Then. That other kind of feedback.

55:24

Become. Unresolved. When

55:27

you believe the interpersonal stuff a result of

55:29

the other feedback. He. Doesn't go

55:31

well because the real. Problem is

55:33

that you know I'm still.

55:36

Pissed off, the in never answered my

55:38

folks. So. Now I'm gonna make it

55:40

all about how you know this feature. really never going

55:42

to work. Here's. An

55:44

example. Somebody. Walks into

55:46

their at at a manager at team

55:48

leader whatever walks into a room. Meeting.

55:51

Starts. A meeting? My say? so I want

55:53

mixer. We hear from everybody. I. Want to

55:56

make sure that with you know we have a very

55:58

full conversation. I want to talk about acts. And

56:01

now let's say that I start

56:03

to say something and. Before.

56:05

And I have finished. His.

56:08

He says yeah, you know any other thing we

56:10

should talk about it bottle. And

56:12

then. A little later. A

56:15

similar thing happened. I start to suggest that

56:17

this another way to look at this and.

56:19

She turns back to somebody else. Is what somebody

56:21

Else it said in never, never. says.

56:25

Anything in response to what I just

56:27

set. And. And

56:29

a big very specific you're

56:31

very behave really specific and

56:33

then. After a while.

56:36

What? Happens to me is I feel

56:38

less and less inclined to offer up

56:41

any. Know.

56:44

Maybe he doesn't care. But.

56:46

As he cares because he started by saying

56:48

he was the hear from everybody Then. I'm

56:51

not being very caring if I don't tell. What?

56:54

The impact was of his the heat. So.

56:56

I don't call him out the middle the meeting because

56:58

I don't want to embarrass him, but I might go

57:00

to his office later and say so You know. If

57:04

you're Dnc minutes. I

57:06

have an observation of got something that I

57:08

expect that the you might want to know.

57:12

Sure care of. So.

57:14

You. Know when I started say x you did why

57:16

when I started to say see you did it I

57:19

sit and when that he started the meeting my

57:21

see what the you're from everybody When that happened

57:23

I felt less and less. I. Felt

57:25

kind of shut down and I suck less and

57:27

less inclined to offer of my pin is so.

57:30

And maybe that maybe that's okay. But

57:32

I wondered whether you knew that was

57:34

the impact. And

57:36

that and I'm telling you because. As

57:38

far as I am concerned, In

57:41

that meeting you did not accomplish your

57:44

stated. Desire.

57:47

To. Your desired outcome was to hear from everybody.

57:49

In after wireless I just gave up. Trying.

57:51

To. Give. You my. Like

57:54

it's time you need to. Solve

57:56

dispensers as he described early because.

57:59

Like. This comes back to be either Relationships

58:01

may matter because that's the way we get

58:04

everything done. And.

58:06

If you just ignore these things, your relationships can be

58:08

hurt. You're not going to be able to accomplish a

58:10

thing you want is almost like something you need to

58:13

do even though feals heart. At So

58:15

and that's why I say that

58:17

Feedback bills relationships. Because.

58:19

Find a way. It's actually something

58:22

that I'm Catholic. I wish I had done the stuff

58:24

that I'm gonna be like oh yang, I'm so glad

58:26

I did that. But. If

58:29

I recognize that. It was.

58:31

It would have been easier for you not to

58:33

say think as it would have been more comfortable

58:35

but because you cared about me. You. Actually

58:38

said something to me. That.

58:41

Talk about Sunday The Bills relationship. Coming.

58:45

Back to the. Antenna

58:47

as you described. Feel like. One.

58:49

Of the most important skills you teach people to build

58:52

this. And ten of both of

58:54

yourself which is even could think of easier but

58:56

maybe of or not. But. Also understanding

58:58

how the other person feels he of this kind

59:00

of concept of the art of inquiry. And.

59:02

How powerful that as can just talk about without his. All.

59:05

Yeah, I'm I'm glad you brought that up because

59:07

an. Inquiry is a

59:09

fundamental. Component.

59:11

Of. Strong. Interpersonal

59:14

Police's. For

59:16

a couple reasons First, and for so let's step

59:18

and and. In. Note:

59:20

Inquiry comes the the root

59:23

of the word. inquiry. His

59:25

quest. Quest means.

59:28

To. Be in search. Of and not knowing what you're

59:30

gonna fuck. That the

59:32

way most people think about questions. And inquiry.

59:35

Most. Of the Thai people ask a

59:37

question to confirm a hypothesis that insecure.

59:39

Just try to discredit John by doing

59:41

that. That's. Not inquiry. Is

59:44

it? You just be better off letting that go,

59:46

that's and adding for. And

59:48

by the way, another. Another

59:50

thing the know. It

59:53

in in Art Full Inquiry. Is

59:55

for civilians to suspend judgment.

59:57

It cannot be curious. If

1:00:01

you've already decided, you know what's going up. Some.

1:00:03

You. Can always go back to being judgmental. But

1:00:07

he got to spend it long enough to see if

1:00:09

there's something for you to work. And.

1:00:12

Then the way you asked the

1:00:14

question matters. Questions. It

1:00:16

that can be answered with yes or no

1:00:18

are typically limiting questions and. Are going to

1:00:20

be very. Questions is set

1:00:22

with why. I. Had to do

1:00:25

that are gonna make me defensive. Or.

1:00:29

Worse. Why are you crying? Well.

1:00:32

If you're really is is that going to make

1:00:34

me want to tell you more about why I'm

1:00:36

upset or why are you upset? I'm

1:00:38

going right away. I'm going to own on. I've

1:00:40

said, is that a big deal or. I'm

1:00:43

going to go. It took place is not

1:00:45

a silly very productive because this reminds me

1:00:47

of how my mother always. it'll scolded neither.

1:00:49

Neither one is gonna be very productive. So.

1:00:52

Questions as start with what. About

1:00:55

What's going on. Where is this

1:00:57

manifesting? Linda to see this happen

1:01:00

Last, How might we go about.

1:01:02

Unpacking, what's going on, Ah,

1:01:05

where is this happening? most? What?

1:01:07

When where how stay away from? Why? And

1:01:12

it's a whole art. Something.

1:01:14

Else you teach people and you you're big on of

1:01:16

that. People can actually change. Themselves,

1:01:19

I think a lot of people might feel like I'm

1:01:21

just not good at this. I'm not good at. Giving.

1:01:24

Feedback of my good. it may be asking questions.

1:01:26

I'm just like ammo. Talk.

1:01:29

About. What you found about

1:01:31

the change people see and why it's

1:01:33

actually. Possible. And

1:01:35

how? well? for starters, a.

1:01:37

Detour ought to any of your listeners.

1:01:40

One of my very favorite authors

1:01:42

and is Carol Dweck who wrote

1:01:45

a book called Mindset and. You

1:01:47

know you put awards yet at the end of

1:01:49

any of those. I don't know

1:01:52

how yet. I'm not like

1:01:54

that yet. Changes

1:01:57

the meaning of the whole thing. Had

1:01:59

by the way to. Right up in your mental model. Instant.

1:02:02

Update of a mental not. The

1:02:05

other thing that that that i'll say is. We.

1:02:08

Are all capable of changing?

1:02:10

Our behavior. We.

1:02:12

Cannot change our personality. We.

1:02:15

Are born wired with personalities. I

1:02:17

am very outgoing and extroverted as

1:02:19

might come as a sex. all

1:02:21

of you. And you know

1:02:23

why, When I overdo it, I suck all the

1:02:25

oxygen out of the room. And

1:02:27

one of the behaviors I had to

1:02:29

learn. and it takes discipline. To

1:02:32

engage in was. Zip.

1:02:34

It it a little. More so that

1:02:37

others could speak up more. And

1:02:40

my. Incentive was that I actually.

1:02:42

Really wanted to learn. More.

1:02:45

About what was going on for. Them and I will

1:02:47

learn anything unless I shut up long

1:02:49

enough for them to tell me. So.

1:02:53

Behavior is something we all

1:02:55

have control. Now.

1:02:58

When I get somebody feedback and they tell me

1:03:00

well I can do that. If

1:03:02

I've asked them to change the behavior and I'll

1:03:04

say. I'm sorry. I

1:03:07

don't think I don't think I can

1:03:09

accept I can. I

1:03:11

will accept. I. Don't.

1:03:13

Want to? Or. Ah,

1:03:16

I don't have it set and you know. But.

1:03:20

The but I don't have to accept that can't So I'd just

1:03:22

like you to own the fact that it's a choice that you're

1:03:24

make. Kind. Of long of line something

1:03:26

and illnesses from your book. but I saw somewhere he

1:03:28

said that it's. Possible. To say

1:03:31

almost anything to almost any one. if you

1:03:33

have the necessary skills, Had a people

1:03:35

Bilby skill that when are we. Talked about a lot of

1:03:37

this through the structure, focus and you're set of the net.

1:03:40

But. Just how do you avoid people getting

1:03:42

defensive? First. Of all, let's let's

1:03:44

let's. Make sure that we point

1:03:46

out that what we're doing here is we're

1:03:48

shifting probabilities. Of success or not

1:03:50

guaranteeing anything. And

1:03:52

let's say that you that you do

1:03:54

your best and you stay on your

1:03:57

side of the net and and you

1:03:59

give somebody feedback. They all. The

1:04:01

A bunker. Isn't you know they call York

1:04:03

and the names and they right You know.

1:04:06

Know. We. Set. And.

1:04:09

Others and up to learn something else

1:04:11

that everybody learns in the spring

1:04:13

which is called repair. How

1:04:16

do you repair when something

1:04:18

goes? Sideways. Because

1:04:21

no matter how good you are,

1:04:23

no matter how skilled you get,

1:04:25

no matter what your intent. Was.

1:04:28

Sometimes. It work and then

1:04:31

you've got to know how to

1:04:33

prepare and and that's why. Remember

1:04:35

I told you that are facilitators

1:04:37

have a unique set of skills

1:04:39

and that because they to allow.

1:04:41

Messes. To but. Otherwise

1:04:44

nobody's gonna learn how to

1:04:46

repair. And

1:04:49

repair often goes back to some

1:04:51

of what we've already talked about.

1:04:53

Let's start with. A

1:04:55

come in the kitchen or has been struggling I say

1:04:57

to him can I help you with that. He.

1:05:00

Says don't tell me what to do. I'm.

1:05:04

Sure none of your that of your list as can relate to

1:05:06

the store. And I say instead

1:05:08

of I wasn't trying to tell you what to

1:05:10

do, ancestry be helpful or kind of a way

1:05:12

to respond to my offering help is that. I

1:05:15

say. Weights or hear

1:05:17

me say. One.

1:05:20

Of the most powerful things you

1:05:22

can do when somebody responds in

1:05:24

a way that feels. Very

1:05:27

unexpected and out of out of

1:05:29

whack with what you've just said.

1:05:32

Is go back to when it to her Me: sad.

1:05:35

Because. Nine times out of ten. What?

1:05:38

They heard his know what he said. He

1:05:40

said. I. Heard you said a know

1:05:42

what I'm doing. Now.

1:05:45

By the way, didn't matter to us that what I said

1:05:47

and I didn't say that that what I said. I

1:05:49

said wow Really glad I asked. Cause.

1:05:52

Now now that you've. Now

1:05:54

that I understand that's what you heard,

1:05:56

I understand why you reacted the way

1:05:58

to death. And.

1:06:01

I said let me try it again. You.

1:06:04

Don't want to waste that I show somebody that I love them

1:06:06

is I offer to help. And

1:06:08

what would you like to meet me to do

1:06:11

is. In. A situation like this: When

1:06:13

I see you struggling. He

1:06:15

says. Wait, For me to ask?

1:06:19

And. That was twenty five years ago. And

1:06:21

that has served as very well cause we've

1:06:23

been married thirty seven years, thirty nine years

1:06:25

and ever go back to feed back to

1:06:27

give somebody feedback. They get super like had

1:06:29

the sensor that. You. Know. The.

1:06:33

By the way, net jumping and fights that jumping

1:06:35

so they're likely than that jumped to. And by

1:06:37

the way, the minute you label it, label somebody.

1:06:39

Or he you know. You're. Over the

1:06:41

net in fact you set is something

1:06:44

that was really interesting that I want

1:06:46

to find here because. You.

1:06:48

Said. Nobody.

1:06:51

Is born with scenes for being. Rude or

1:06:53

self involved. Well.

1:06:55

Guess what? Rude and self involved or

1:06:57

labels? That

1:07:00

is not behaviorally specific, so.

1:07:03

Calling. Somebody rude or self involved

1:07:05

is just going to make them

1:07:07

defensive. But

1:07:10

saying. You. Know. Be.

1:07:14

Yell three You! I was interrupted

1:07:16

three times. And you

1:07:18

know I'm telling you this because you said

1:07:20

you wanted to hear what my my opinion.

1:07:24

And I just thought you should know that you

1:07:26

know I was put off by being interrupted. Much.

1:07:30

Less likely to incite. Defensiveness,

1:07:34

Absolutely. Does. Hearing what actually

1:07:36

happens thing underside of a net. Exactly.

1:07:39

So. Game was always comes back to like I could

1:07:41

see this being so effective doing in this in a

1:07:43

class and versions just like listening to us and like

1:07:45

okay I'm gonna start saying how my son that I'm

1:07:48

gonna. Hear. Pair relationships. Is

1:07:50

there any other examples of exercises do in

1:07:52

the class that might be helpful to people

1:07:54

to see here? Are. You learn some of

1:07:56

these things. Every chapter in the book has

1:07:58

a section at the. Called deep and

1:08:00

you're learning. And those

1:08:03

deepen your learning section. Every single one

1:08:05

of them has suggested activity. Something.

1:08:08

You can go to. And some of those

1:08:10

come from some of the things we do in the classroom. So

1:08:14

ah, So.

1:08:17

That's one place to. Start in terms of trying

1:08:19

to find you know, Very. Tactical

1:08:22

and practical ways. Of

1:08:24

a some of this. The other

1:08:26

the other thing that we often do it

1:08:28

it is. I often do. In.

1:08:31

Leaders and Tech is to do this

1:08:33

less at. Ah at Stanford

1:08:36

because they did a lot of this in

1:08:38

their T groups. And they were. They were

1:08:40

actually in real time with each other. Putting.

1:08:43

Everything they were learning to use. But.

1:08:45

Sometimes with by exacts in leaders and tech

1:08:47

I I will for example put them in

1:08:50

a trio in I Will and I will

1:08:52

say to you So Lenny. I.

1:08:54

Want you to think of somebody? Who

1:08:56

you would like to give feedback to? And.

1:08:59

I want you to tell me what is it.

1:09:01

What is? What's the behavior they're engaging in?

1:09:04

How. Does it make you feel. Why?

1:09:06

Would what would be behind you wanting to

1:09:08

tell them what would be your desired outcome?

1:09:10

The conversation. Then. I

1:09:12

become you. You

1:09:15

become your difficult person cause you know

1:09:17

them and I don't. And we

1:09:19

role play. Because

1:09:21

you know Told me. You know what

1:09:23

you need, what you want. What's

1:09:26

going on for you? And. Then.

1:09:30

You. Have to play your difficult person. As.

1:09:33

As. An as well as you can the

1:09:35

search purses usually the observer full pinch hit

1:09:37

since is Carol I think that was over

1:09:39

the net. And ah, Carol.

1:09:42

I don't think there's a behavior

1:09:44

or carol. And by the way, We.

1:09:46

Say i feel insert feeling.

1:09:49

Nine. Times out of ten people say I

1:09:51

feel that. Or. I feel like.

1:09:54

I. Feel that you don't care is not a

1:09:56

feeling. I feel like it doesn't matter is not

1:09:58

a feeling. I feel that your. That committed is

1:10:00

not a feeling. In fact,

1:10:02

they're all over the net. You're almost guaranteed

1:10:04

to be over the net when you start.

1:10:06

I feel and put in like or that.

1:10:10

Guaranteed very easy task.

1:10:13

I feel pull up vocabulary

1:10:15

feeling. He can't

1:10:18

say dramatically it correctly. I

1:10:20

feel. That. Sad. Or I

1:10:22

feel that angry. Or I feel that

1:10:24

irritated. or I feel like disappointed. If

1:10:27

it doesn't work, From.

1:10:29

Amazing marriage of us. I'm gonna and deserve

1:10:32

everything that. Many

1:10:35

many married couples have got bought the

1:10:38

put together. And read it together actually,

1:10:40

which is kind of cool. There's a

1:10:42

few other things want to touch on that I love.

1:10:44

One. Is a tip the you

1:10:46

serve ah you call advice hinders relationships.

1:10:49

Are the and will guide you. Ask me about

1:10:51

that because to think a couple things. For

1:10:53

civil. Leaders often. Believe

1:10:56

this is another mental model that they have

1:10:58

to have all the answers. And

1:11:02

that is actually. An of

1:11:04

a pretty. Is.

1:11:06

That very productive mental model or

1:11:08

belief because. First of all, puts a

1:11:10

huge amount of pressure on the leader. Now

1:11:12

suddenly. I always has to know

1:11:15

and what happens when I don't know. Second,

1:11:17

Of all. I

1:11:20

believe a leaders job. Is.

1:11:22

To ensure. The. Best answer

1:11:24

is. Felt. It

1:11:27

doesn't matter whether comes from me. Or.

1:11:29

Anywhere else in the organization, It

1:11:32

also allows for the possibility somebody else may

1:11:34

have a better answer than me. And

1:11:37

many of really really good solution

1:11:39

has been. Squelched. And

1:11:42

never surface because people are afraid.

1:11:45

To. Say will like I see a differently What if

1:11:47

we did it this. Case. We.

1:11:50

Had a challenger disaster. As

1:11:52

a result of that, The

1:11:54

other the other thing about advice

1:11:56

is that. It. Creates

1:11:59

even bigger. Power differential between

1:12:01

people. So. If you're

1:12:03

the leader or years in a fire power

1:12:05

position to start with. Then.

1:12:08

Giving. Me advice is only gonna make me

1:12:11

feel. Even lower power. As

1:12:13

opposed to. Well.

1:12:16

Let's. Think that this together this be set

1:12:18

partners. Also when we

1:12:21

give advice, Good thing to stab

1:12:23

yourself and ask yourself. Who. Like to

1:12:25

whom I doing this for My doing this for

1:12:27

me. So that I can pop myself up with

1:12:29

everything I. Or. My doing it for

1:12:31

you because this is really going to help you and make

1:12:33

you better. Nine. Times out of Ten.

1:12:37

Being a thought partner as you

1:12:40

explore. The. Various options

1:12:42

and coming to your own solution

1:12:44

is both going to help you

1:12:46

develop more. And. Then.

1:12:49

You're not going to come ask me again

1:12:51

if the only time you ever. Learn

1:12:53

is when you com asked me and europa to

1:12:55

any of the work of figure out how I

1:12:58

got to that answer will then you know you're

1:13:00

just I just made me look for myself. There's

1:13:03

a great Harvard Business Review post. I

1:13:05

just read about monkeys on your back.

1:13:08

Of your this Yes Now we're basically as a

1:13:10

manager. people are always and of a monkey. Then

1:13:12

you're back to yeah, Have you solve their problem

1:13:14

and your job as a managers to get the

1:13:16

monkeys. On. Their own backs

1:13:18

and help them. Yes, you do. And. I'm glad

1:13:20

you brought that up because people then have

1:13:23

become so used to said quick circuit is

1:13:25

you'll just give me the answer. First.

1:13:27

Of all. You. Have. You.

1:13:30

Have. Enabled. Powerlessness.

1:13:34

He. Is certainly amd help them learn and grow if

1:13:36

you think you're to. If he at all think

1:13:38

your job as a manager is at least sometimes

1:13:40

do that. And sometimes people

1:13:42

will say t just the answer.

1:13:46

And. Then you know I always to say I

1:13:48

could. And. Here's how I

1:13:50

know. Here's why I'm not going to cause I don't think

1:13:52

settle service. Because that some my job. My.

1:13:55

Job isn't just to. Give you the is. A

1:13:58

job is to turn you into somebody who. Late

1:14:00

will just know what the right answers. But.

1:14:03

Just gimme the answer. Does

1:14:06

this apply to friendships? Also light

1:14:08

and how often people come. To.

1:14:11

Your are you as a friend and he didn't buy some

1:14:13

this. This. Applies well off and try

1:14:15

to try not to give advice or is it

1:14:17

a different dynamic. Their. Well.

1:14:20

It is some of the same power day

1:14:23

power differential can happen. the is it that

1:14:25

I see. Chapter four in the book is

1:14:27

about two guys who are good friend. The

1:14:29

one of them is always trying to give

1:14:31

advice to the other one. First.

1:14:35

Of all, it can be annoying if he didn't ask for

1:14:37

it. So

1:14:39

I certainly wouldn't give advice

1:14:41

if unless of the ask

1:14:43

for it and. I.

1:14:46

I might not immediately jump

1:14:48

to. I might. Add

1:14:51

to the advice I might want to

1:14:53

explore. You. Know what? have

1:14:55

you already thought about? How.

1:14:57

Have you already approached it? Where are

1:15:00

you stuck? I might ask more questions

1:15:02

before I immediately go into advice, because

1:15:04

anyway, nine times out of ten, you

1:15:06

end up. Giving. Advice and

1:15:09

something that's not really what the person was.

1:15:12

Worried. About or wondering the best. So.

1:15:15

A Yelp First Scott

1:15:17

Inquiry. In. I can always

1:15:19

come back to advice. Yeah. I

1:15:21

find that. Every. Time I try to

1:15:23

resist. Or I I make myself resist.

1:15:26

Giving. Advice and instead ask more

1:15:28

questions every single time. I

1:15:30

realize. okay, had no idea what they're actually

1:15:33

looking for. For. Was going on. Now

1:15:36

for. These are to do. I'm slight Sherrod. just

1:15:38

want to tell you. Here's the thing. You're late

1:15:40

because you know what? It's another mental

1:15:42

model I serve you best side. Just.

1:15:45

Giving. You advice when you asked for. That's

1:15:48

that loving caring thing to do was

1:15:50

a mental model. Try.

1:15:52

Testing it, see what the zippers

1:15:54

are really turn that this still

1:15:56

be valid. And so the

1:15:59

vote? Maybe them. Correct, mouth them up mental

1:16:01

model is. It would I would you describe

1:16:03

it that it's often better to help the person. Figure.

1:16:06

It Out or is it that a you're just often don't actually

1:16:08

understand what's going on? The best thing

1:16:10

to do first? score inquiry. Because.

1:16:15

By the way I that you know I also

1:16:17

as you might imagine that kinda air very much

1:16:19

a the so transparency and so I'll say you

1:16:21

know. Man. I got

1:16:23

all kinds of things going on my head about

1:16:25

what I think we would be great for you

1:16:28

to do and I'm gonna resist that. Because.

1:16:32

I first of all may or may not

1:16:34

hit the mark. So. I need at

1:16:36

really liked understand more And second of all. You.

1:16:38

Know I I wonder if little in

1:16:41

the and be even more. fruitful,

1:16:43

Sicily explore different things together. And

1:16:46

we're just a few more customs. One.

1:16:48

Is so we have this segment on the podcast.

1:16:50

Like all Failure Corner or people share a failure

1:16:53

in a career and what they learn from it.

1:16:55

Never really constructive way of thinking

1:16:57

about failure with this great acronym.

1:17:00

Can you talk about that? The

1:17:02

acronym is. A. F

1:17:05

O G another. As.

1:17:08

Saying. I don't know your audience one

1:17:10

of. Don't wanna offend anybody to see if he or

1:17:12

his. Another something opportunity for growth.

1:17:16

Of every student who ever took a

1:17:18

class for me. Every. Client

1:17:20

to I have ever coached. Every

1:17:23

participant is ever gone through. Leaders

1:17:25

attack. Know. Said acronym.

1:17:28

Because my question when

1:17:30

something has gone wrong.

1:17:33

Or. You. Know a

1:17:35

person has experienced a failure.

1:17:37

My first question. Is always

1:17:40

so wedded to learn. Cause.

1:17:44

There's always a lesson. And

1:17:46

ah and then and then usually what follows is

1:17:48

yeah, you just had a he just sat in

1:17:51

a fog. And you know,

1:17:53

as a person who sat a lot of a. Fox. Thrust

1:17:55

upon it is that. It

1:17:58

puts it in perspective. I like. The

1:18:00

perspective that it. Offers. Place.

1:18:02

Like the end of the world. Ah,

1:18:05

sometimes some some a far more painful

1:18:07

than others. Some. A fox

1:18:09

take longer to recover from than

1:18:11

others. Night and yeah,

1:18:14

most of the time. You

1:18:16

know they're recoverable. Particularly.

1:18:20

If I've invested the. Energy and

1:18:22

really unpacking what there was from. It'll be

1:18:24

for you to learn. Know

1:18:27

so. The advice: Years when something goes wrong when

1:18:29

you fail. To. Give it as

1:18:31

a mother fucking opportunity to a for growth,

1:18:33

a fight taxes. Okay that the back there.

1:18:36

To. Came go full circle to where we

1:18:39

started building exceptional relationships. Building or bus relationships

1:18:41

in the book. You have a checklist of

1:18:43

just. How to build an exceptional

1:18:45

relationship. I know you don't have all this

1:18:47

in your head, Whatever. Actually, I probably do.

1:18:49

You probably saw a set up at what's

1:18:51

on this list of just like things you

1:18:53

can do to build. Exceptional

1:18:55

relationships. Well, he got

1:18:58

back to fact that there are six characteristics.

1:19:01

Of of exceptional, really subsequent In

1:19:03

actually those are the characteristics. That

1:19:05

are present as a relationship is.

1:19:08

Moving down this continue. That. We've

1:19:10

talked with. And they the more

1:19:12

each of these exists, the more the

1:19:14

farther down the continuum your. So.

1:19:17

The first one is. You. Know.

1:19:19

I'm better known by you. And

1:19:22

of course their skills involved. And how do I

1:19:25

allow myself been out? The second one is. I

1:19:27

know you better. And. There's

1:19:30

skills involved in getting the know you better

1:19:32

move. Talked about many of them. The third

1:19:34

one is we trust that our disclosures will

1:19:36

be used against us. The.

1:19:38

Fourth one as we can be honest with each other.

1:19:41

That's where all the feedback consent. Assists

1:19:43

one as we. Know. How to resolve

1:19:45

conflict productively, And the

1:19:47

six to one is we are committed to

1:19:50

each other's learning a growth. And.

1:19:53

When all six of those are present. To

1:19:56

varying degrees, you've moved farther

1:19:58

down with Continuum. He

1:20:00

wrote somewhere that you know your relationship has become exceptional

1:20:02

when you in the other person, don't have to hide

1:20:05

important parts of yourself. Yeah. And

1:20:07

can deal with major issues even if a deal scary.

1:20:10

Yep, That said, I did read that

1:20:12

somewhere and. I. I stand by

1:20:14

that litter as. If you can, zoom

1:20:16

out. From. All of your work and

1:20:18

teachings are there any over arching. Themes:

1:20:22

That. Continue to come up They think

1:20:24

are important for people to take away from

1:20:26

this conversation. Well. For starters

1:20:28

were all works in progress. Which.

1:20:30

Means every relationship in your life is a

1:20:32

work in progress because if I'm a work

1:20:35

in progress and your work in progress. Sent.

1:20:37

By default, so is our relationship. And

1:20:40

so remembering that. What?

1:20:43

Works. With you. Two

1:20:46

years ago may or may not work for

1:20:48

you now. As for different people, To.

1:20:50

Think that's that's a biggie. I

1:20:54

seek. At. Stopping

1:20:57

and. And. Becoming

1:21:00

aware of what are the mental models

1:21:02

that are driving these choices that I'm

1:21:04

making? Like. Every

1:21:08

behavior has in front of it.

1:21:11

The choice. If

1:21:13

fleets that long enough to become

1:21:15

aware and in front of every

1:21:17

choice, There's. Some belief.

1:21:21

So. I

1:21:23

try to march myself back. From the.

1:21:26

Result. To the behavior. To.

1:21:29

The. Choice to

1:21:31

the. Mental. Model that drove

1:21:33

it more The skill or lack of skill.

1:21:36

Something. That we didn't talk about the beginning.

1:21:38

This because it might distract people. But.

1:21:40

You've. Been dealing with long overdue for almost

1:21:43

two years at this point. Where.

1:21:46

Are you at with it? How are

1:21:48

things going? And is there anything

1:21:50

you've learned from this. Unexpected

1:21:52

part of your life. It's. Given

1:21:54

me an opportunity to live a. Lot

1:21:56

of what I teach. So.

1:22:00

I. Always taught in my leadership

1:22:02

classes that the worst thing a leader

1:22:04

can do is make an organization too

1:22:06

dependent on. If

1:22:08

you care about building a sustainable

1:22:10

long term. Organization.

1:22:14

And in a legacy. Then.

1:22:17

Or it behooves you not to

1:22:19

make the organization. Very. Dependent

1:22:21

side. So. Over the

1:22:23

last twenty months I have. Slowly.

1:22:27

And surely. Given

1:22:30

more and more of my responsibilities

1:22:32

to more and more members of

1:22:34

the team. To. The point

1:22:36

where hot off the press. I'm.

1:22:39

About to become only an adviser.

1:22:42

And. Step out of. Really?

1:22:45

All of my operational cities.

1:22:48

Probably by the end of this year. Now.

1:22:52

I have a you know there was a point at which

1:22:54

I was like and and oh my god we have like

1:22:56

it better suddenly right cause people to get better. And

1:22:59

my, you know what? am I? very wise children

1:23:01

said? you know mom. I'm pretty sure that as

1:23:03

you suddenly get a lot better they'll They'll be

1:23:05

happy to give you lots. Of stuff, the deaths

1:23:07

of. So anyway of.

1:23:10

So. That's that's one of. Probably.

1:23:14

The biggest, the lessons and

1:23:16

and and and also it

1:23:18

goes with. A

1:23:21

A lesson around acceptance. And.

1:23:24

You know, accept I wrote at linked in

1:23:27

a. I. Think of a

1:23:29

licked in. That a

1:23:31

blogger. Paper. Linked

1:23:33

one of those linked in things that if you go

1:23:35

to my website you. Can. Look at things I've

1:23:37

written. I think it was called. Long

1:23:41

covered and acceptance recently. With that. But

1:23:43

it's about. How acceptance

1:23:46

is not resignation. And

1:23:49

it's it's. It's about

1:23:51

it having an opportunity to receive

1:23:54

a lot of things and refrain.

1:23:57

The. Lease am.

1:23:59

And I and I think that the last thing

1:24:01

I'll say about it is that. He

1:24:05

has made me a much more empathetic

1:24:07

purse. And.

1:24:10

As. I.

1:24:13

I think one of the really an interesting

1:24:15

and important things to learn when and it

1:24:17

and have always continue to learn and doing

1:24:20

the interpersonal dynamics work we do is you

1:24:22

never know what's. Going on for someone else. And.

1:24:25

In one of the worst things we can do is assume we

1:24:28

know what's going on for some other. Hand.

1:24:31

It's really easy to get really in at.

1:24:33

With said I think we I said this.

1:24:35

Before we got online. Which is in

1:24:37

the absence of data. People.

1:24:39

Make shit up. So if you don't

1:24:41

want people to make shit up about you, You're.

1:24:43

Better off disclosing more. Because.

1:24:47

Then you'll have more control over yourself.

1:24:49

This edition that less. Keep.

1:24:52

People like the makes sense of things. They

1:24:54

will connect dots however way they want to

1:24:56

unless you health of connect. Them the wake you

1:24:58

up and. Now.

1:25:00

The case for self disclosure. Or

1:25:04

Carol. I'm incredibly thankful that you make time for

1:25:06

this. I know it's not the easiest thing to

1:25:09

do these things. Take. You. To

1:25:11

remind people were to find. Leaders.

1:25:13

Intact and had applied on the website and

1:25:16

who is for specifically so the right sort

1:25:18

of people go there. And then finally,

1:25:20

just how can listeners diesel to you as a finalist?

1:25:23

I'm on linked in. The. You won't

1:25:25

be able to just connect with me at all.

1:25:27

Got one of those they three kids as connect.

1:25:29

You need my my email address some some you

1:25:31

can put my email address in the notes. That

1:25:34

anybody's more than welcome but but issue collect for me

1:25:36

to please don't try to sell me anything since the

1:25:38

the only reason that set up that ways that too

1:25:40

many people were trying to sell me too many things

1:25:43

and I got exasperated that the only reason they wanted

1:25:45

to connect. Social. Success or I've

1:25:47

decided. I'm just going to trust that era your

1:25:49

reach out to make as you want to connect

1:25:52

with fake as you're interested. My work. And

1:25:55

that yellowstone though. And be sensitive to sex that I

1:25:57

have one. cove it's in my capacity

1:25:59

their response to messages and emails

1:26:02

is definitely impacted. I used to

1:26:04

be one of those you could count

1:26:06

on me to always respond. By

1:26:08

the way, another learning, you know, it turns out everybody didn't

1:26:11

write me off just because I couldn't respond to them

1:26:13

right away. That is a really

1:26:15

great learning. Okay, and then

1:26:17

the website for people that may want to

1:26:19

apply and the applications are still open basically

1:26:21

by the time this is leadersintech.org. Right.

1:26:24

Amazing. Carol, you are

1:26:26

wonderful. Thank you so much for making time

1:26:29

for this. Thank you for being here. Thank

1:26:32

you. Bye everyone. Thank

1:26:36

you so much for listening. If you found

1:26:38

this valuable, you can subscribe to the show

1:26:41

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1:26:43

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1:26:50

You can find all past episodes or

1:26:52

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1:26:55

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