Hello, I'm Rachel McAlpine and I'm learning how to be old.

What makes a good conversation? How does that change as we get older? And why does that matter? I don't want to be the boring old person that nobody wants to talk to. Here to help me are 11 kind strangers and Kirsty Ferguson, who specialises in helping people talk through their own miscommunication. So, listen if you think you might be old one day!

To take the last one first, it matters heaps. Communicating frequently with other human beings is almost a matter of life and death at a certain age. Because a good conversation is an antidote to loneliness, and loneliness is literally a killer.

• Antidote to loneliness: 7 real-life conversations a day
• Harriet Lerner's Psychology Today blog: The Dance of Connection
• What Kirsty Ferguson does

Transcript of this podcast episode: A Good Conversation

[Music] Hello, I'm your host Rachel McAlpine and I'm learning how to be old. And so are you, I think.

What makes a good conversation? And how does that change as we get older, if at all? And why does that matter?

To take the last one first, it matters heaps. Communicating with other human beings on a regular basis is almost a matter of life and death at a certain age. Because a good conversation keeps loneliness at bay and loneliness is a killer, literally.

What people think is a good conversation

Shhh! Listen to the people.

• I think a good conversation is one that disarms you and gets you to speak about yourself and learn about another person.
• I would say a good conversation is being able to have a good debate about something. So, yeah, listening to someone else's point of view and taking it on board and seeing if you can be swayed.
• It should be as much listening as it is talking. [Bell rings]

My guest is Kirsty Ferguson, mediator

R. My guest today is Kirsty Ferguson from Te Whanganui-tara. Kirsty's going to help me look at how we communicate. And especially how we can improve our skills as we get older. She's very good at this personally and it's her job to help people resolve their disputes by talking to each other. Ferguson partners work with all manner of groups and organisations and restorative justice, mediation and dispute resolution. In other words, Kirsty's at the sharp end of communication helping other people.

My own dispute is with myself and my own conversational bad habits as an old person. And Kirsty has kindly agreed to give me a hand. Hello, Kirsty. Thank you for coming along and talking to me.

K. My pleasure. It's very lovely to be here, Rachel.

R. Particularly as you're a bit of an expert on communication, especially in tricky situations. And for this episode, I'm really interested in how we can get a few skills up our sleeve so that it's less likely that when we're old, this is sounding very convoluted, when we're old, when I'm really older than I am, I don't want to be the boring person that nobody wants to talk to. And I'm thinking I might be able to learn a bit in advance. You can help me, right?

K. Very happy to have a conversation and share some of the few things I've learned over the years.

R. I was also thinking about how conversation, how our skills change as we get older, even if we don't learn anything formally. And I remember, since I was one of six girls, so around the dinner table, we had to put our hands up to talk, not because our father was fierce, but because he wanted us all to have turns and we all wanted to talk all the time. Was it like that for you?

"Children should be seen and not heard"

K. Not quite so much for me. My family wasn't quite as compelling or compassionate. We were a little bit more seen and not heard, I think, at the dinner table. As I grew older, I was encouraged to speak and engage, but certainly I think that was the ethos of our family dinners. They weren't fun times, particularly.

R. Certainly my mother used to say, “little birds in their nest agree” and “children should be seen and not heard. But she always said it as a bit of a joke. It was like, "Oh, come on, please stop talking to everybody all at once." It wasn't kind of serious. And it worked. We said, "All right, time to shut up and stop squabbling."

K. I remember as a parent, also having the children talking a lot at me and thinking, “I'm busy doing this task and I cannot give you the attention that you want right now.” So I used to say, “Oh, can we just hang five for a moment and let me finish this task?” And then I can really attend to what you're saying and not just go, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.” So I think designating times when you are able to, you know, to devote serious attention to the content of the conversation as opposed to just being chatted at.

R. Well, you're better, I think you're a better mother than me then — because fancy being aware of it! I think I was extremely unaware of all the dynamics of conversation. I had no idea that you could actually choose the kind of things you said or didn't say. It was entirely intuitive until I was 32 or 3. I was teaching. And we had a refresher course on what they called interpersonal communication and assertiveness, which strangely enough was a lot about listening actively. It was like a bombshell, I thought, “Jeepers, this is amazing.” But you probably knew that long ago, did you?

People favour talking over listening

K. Oh, no, I think they are things we learn. And I'm reminded of a book by Harriet Lerner. And I think she was interviewed by Brene Brown. But Harriet Lerner said that she, I can't remember whether she offered these two courses or she had observed this process happening, but one course was How to Speak to be Heard. And the other course was how to listen for understanding. And the How to Speak workshop was oversubscribed. So everyone wanted to learn how better to make sure that they were heard. And they had a Listen for Understanding. There were very few registrations for that. So that idea that everyone is very keen to be heard and articulate their concerns or issues. But not so many people understand or, yeah, I get that listening is quite a thing. And that's what we need.

Why and how we need to listen

R. Yes, it's huge, isn't it? And I was also thinking, listening and talking: why is it so important to have conversation? And especially with old people, we know so much now about it's a kind of life or death thing, being able to talk to people and having people around and talking is a really important bonus. Yeah, what do you think?

K. Listening is such a central element of being in relationship with anyone. And I think what we know is being in relationships with our community, our family, our friends, our neighbours. It is so central for our well-being. And for that to happen, we need to be listening. And the idea that listening is the most important gift we can give. And that is about being heard.

And it's listening with no judgement. It's listening to accept and believe everything people offer. That's the central really important link in any kind of relationships. Because as soon as people feel there's a sense of judgement, then there's that sense that they're not being believed and a rejection of self. So I think judgement is the death knell to any kind of empathy. And empathy is such an important element when we're in relationship and when we're communicating. And that's what we need to do.

6 barriers to good conversation for old people

R. Now there's plenty of advice on how to talk to old people — as if we're all the same. And it's helpful, of course it is. But then there's learning how to BE the old person who people have to talk to or want to talk to. That's what I need to know. So do you if you're going to be old one day? You want to participate, not vegetate. When to start thinking about these things? Well, now's good.

For me in my 80s there are at least six new challenges in this area. Conversation stoppers. The first three are normal age-related changes and I think they're very common, especially in a group discussion.

The first challenge is being a bit deaf. So even with hearing aids you miss out on the subtleties. You miss the throwaway remarks, the naughty little sides. And the punchlines, worst of all you miss the jokes.

The second challenge in conversation, in later life you process information more slowly. So for most of us the dream of rapid repartee is gone forever. Even when you're sober. These days by the time I figure out what I want to say, the moment is past.

Number three, I'm greyer and smaller and less of a show-off. I'm less visible.

You know some of these challenges may sneak up on you too one day. They are among the possible gifts of old age. But the last three problems, repeating myself, butting in and giving unsolicited advice — I'm afraid they might be changing my personality for the worse. So I'm thinking I need to start doing something extra, something different. So I started by asking people in the street what they thought makes a good conversation and that was very interesting.

More people describe a good conversation

Shhhhhh. Listen to the people.

• A conversation between two people is a good conversation. If you're in a group of lots of people it's going to be hard to talk to them at the same time.
• One that is engaging and makes you feel something, like maybe helps you get to know someone a bit more on a deeper level. A good conversation to me is a back and forth in which both people kind of bring their unique perspectives to the forefront. It's something that you can look back on and really smile about.
• I like political conversations because even if you're arguing or debating, no one doesn't want to not talk. And if they do want to not talk, that's the conversation in itself.
• I feel like maybe. A good conversation is the one that flows well, involves both people and between people that are interested in getting to know the other. And I think those are pretty much the key things really.
• I don't know, I feel like a good conversation is one where you're either learning things or enjoying yourself because that's the most important thing. There's no point in talking if you're not liking what you're talking about.

Scared of boring people

R. And so whether you're an older person talking to a younger person, well, let's just start with that since that's my main concern. Because I'm sort of scared I'm going to be really boring when I'm a little bit older, that I'll get stuck. I'll keep saying the same thing over and over again, partly because I'm a bit deaf. And so I'm trying to think how not to do that. And of course, listening to other people would be a very good start, wouldn't it? Instead of thinking, I've got to talk, I've got to talk, I've got to talk. And that's kind of the wrong end of the stick, isn't it?

K. Well, I think it's all of those things. I don't think it has to be one or the other and you will never be boring. I can tell you that. But I think having a few, I think remaining curious is really important and having a few questions up your sleeve. So rather than sitting and feeling like you're isolated, because perhaps your hearing's not so good and that people might not be interested in you, then I think having some questions up your sleeve to engage with others and to really listen for understanding.

And I think that's not just for older people. I think people who feel shy or find social situations difficult, having a few questions up your sleeve and being really interested in people, because people do love talking about themselves.

R. Oh, you just took me right back to school dances. Because not only did we need a new dress, which we'd whip up in the afternoon of the dance, but also I used to study and think, you know, make sure I knew what had happened at the rugby that day. I had my questions to ask these boys who were probably much more shy than me even. So, and I'm afraid it does get them talking about themselves in a big way. I don't know why I said I'm afraid, because that's what we want to do. But not to have it all lopsided. Yes.

K. Yeah. And when there's an age difference, and perhaps you don't know each other very well, that's a bit more likely maybe. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, I mean, there's lots of space clearly to be listening to older people too, because there's much wisdom in what older people have to say. So I think, yeah, so that's a shout out to everyone to listen and to be curious.

R. And for the old people to be curious too. That is a death knell, when you're not curious about the other person. And you don't really want to hear what they're saying. You're listening in order to talk, prepare what you're going to say, rather than to understand what they're saying.

Conversations with your adult children

And I can see that it's particularly important when it's like parent and grown-up child, like old person and middle-aged child, because you've got a lot of history, and some people find it hard to stop being a parent and telling people what to do. It's a big shift really, isn't it, when your children really grow up?

K. Yeah. And I think we can really, you know, there's a potential to get lost in whether we're getting it right or not. Oh, yes. Whether we're too engaged or not engaged enough. And I thought about this recently. I'm not sure why I did, but my mum used to always ring early on a Saturday morning, when the kids were little and you'd kind of long for a bit of a sleep in before you had to get up. And I thought, why is she ringing now? But obviously it was a space and time for her to connect. And there was a need for her to connect. And I can't remember how I resolved that particular issue, but I did think about those weekly calls.

And I'm mindful now of how I connect with the children. Is it too much? Is it not enough? But I think, I think that's where it loops around to, it's okay to ask. Just to check in and say, hey look, this relationship's important and I want you to know that I care about you and I love hearing what's going on in your life. But is ringing you once a week, is that not enough? Or is ringing you once a week, is that too much? And I think just having those conversations out loud and asking questions, rather than being stuck and making assumptions about what our children or our friends or our siblings may want or not want. Because it's very easy for us to misinterpret and for our wires to get across. So I think always notice and always ask.

R. Oh, that's just what I needed to hear. That's exactly what I need to do with my sons anyway. Because especially if you make the terrible mistake of comparing yourself with other amazing parents who are in touch every day or yes, I think of myself as a kind of neglectful parent. But do they think that? I have no idea. No idea.

3 more opinions about good conversation

Shhhhhh. Listen to the people.

• I think it just has good questions, you know. That's a good conversation.
• A good conversation? I don't know. Something that involves maybe a bit of humour into it definitely. And maybe also a bit of different opinions so you guys can actually see what the other person, like, you know, perspective as well.
• I agree because I like to go out and you know, you surround yourself, your friends are all very much like yourself. So having a conversation with a different person and all the insights they have, I always love doing that, especially if I'm at the pub or something.

R. I wanted to ask you, can you say a reason why you got into this particular work that you do now which is helping people to resolve disputes and, yes, to negotiate a satisfactory outcome?

K. Gosh, I think I had a set of skills and I was keen to move away from my other work and create something new. And I'm fascinated by human behaviour. There you go. I'm fascinated by human behaviour. And why we say what we do, why we do what we do, and how we can kind of get it wrong. And often when we get it wrong, there is no malice or ill intent. We've just missed each other for some way. That's often how disputes come to be. And I think it's around having understanding people's different thresholds for conflict and how they respond to conflict. And some will dive in feet first and have a good old conversation. And others will run for the hills because it feels too difficult. So assisting people in conflict to navigate good solutions for both parties or all parties feels a real gift, actually, and enormously satisfying because no one wants to be in conflict.

R. Yeah, that does make perfect sense, I must say. And two of the things that I've immediately picked up from what you've been saying is that listening matters more than talking. Sure you've got to talk, but listening is huge. And the other thing is keep asking questions. Actually, I'd like to ask what kind of questions? Because some are better than others, aren't they?

Asking questions

K. So I think areas that you have genuine interest in, I think just asking questions for the sake of questions if you're not that interested in the answer is probably a question to avoid. So think about points of similarity. Stick to non-contentious issues. I wouldn't dive into political conversations if you know that you're sitting on opposite sides of the fence. Not if you're wanting a conversation. I mean if you're wanting a robust and interesting conversation, be ready for that. But I think even that's negotiated. I think it's worthwhile checking in, getting consent. “I'm really interested in your perspective of this government, how do you think they're performing, what are the bits that they're doing well, what are your concerns?” I think that's where your interests lie and perhaps where their interests lie.

R. And also the kind of questions you're suggesting, they're not, who did you vote for? Yes or no questions, are they? They're questions where the person will be able to open up and talk about more.

K.  So we're talking about open questions as opposed to closed questions. But even with those open questions, when we're inviting a conversation, we can sometimes get a short answer. But you can stick with that and say, tell me a little bit more about that or I'm kind of curious about that. Or why is that important to you?

Which is a question that comes from Peter Block actually. He says that we spend too much time having conversations with people in our own bubble. And the best thing that we can do is step outside the bubble and ask some curious questions to help understand. And I think that seems to be more important than ever now in our increasingly divided society. So to listen and be curious, people might hold different positions to you, but it doesn't mean that they're good people or bad people. It means that they hold different positions. And the best way we can move away from the extremes is to really engage with thoughtful and curious questions.

R. Thoughtful and curious, yeah. I like that. I was really surprised at the wide variety of opinions people had about what a good conversation was. Because, as you say, one person said, a good conversation is a debate. She was very emphatic about it, so she loves a good, robust conversation, shall we say, politically, I bet, as well. All the way to the person who said, a good conversation should be more listening than talking.

So between the lot of them, I can't remember, maybe eight or nine, they came up with all sorts of different ideas and they were all true. So that ties into what you said about, don't get too tied up about whether you're doing the right thing or the wrong thing. I'm not going to [?] because we're nitpicking here, because I really want to know. And I've got a couple of things in mind that I'm going to try harder with. On the other hand, look, just be curious and if you really want to have a good conversation, just be interested in the person. Is that right sort of thing? And listen. Listen, listen.

K. Yeah, that's the best way of building a relationship. Because we listen with a view to think what our response is going to be. So we listen with half an ear and the other part of our brain, and the other part of our brain is going, what's some kind of witty response. I can have to listen and yes, that happened to me. So I think the idea is to listen for listening sake and explore that conversation and dig a bit deeper and then see what your response is.

Good conversation is a learned skill

R. I'm thinking you're describing a conversation which is a performance because we kind of think we're on show. But we're not. We're engaging with another person. We're not on the stage. We're not. Yeah, but we can't help it. We're human. So it is something that we actually have to look out for. Although some people are born with this wonderful gift of listening. Yeah, I think not many.

K. No, I definitely think it's a learning skill. I was the youngest of four and I think that meant that I was a bit of a watcher of people.

R. My fifth youngest sister, she really listens to people and engages with them. She just loved radio. Yeah. And here I am doing a podcast. But I don't have her gift.

K. Well, we all have different gifts.

R. We do. And we have to be just perfectly satisfied with those.

You've taught me a lot in such a short time. And it's on record. It's on record. So I can go back and relearn it when I forget because I do because of my short-term memory. There you go.

K. But I think even that can be an invitation for people too, isn't it? If I forget stuff, please remind me where I got lost because again, people are cautious and don't want to offend. And so might say, no, we were talking about something else, Rachel. We bounced off here and bounced back there. But I think it's about giving permission to say, "Look, sometimes I'm going to forget stuff." So can you just remind me where I'm up to?

R. That's wonderful. In fact, I've got to say that, for at least two or three years now, I've realised that if I'm talking, I should never start a sentence with a subordinate clause because I forget how I was going to end it. And if I do manage this amazing thing of a complex sentence and I get right to the end, well, I feel very proud of myself. That's very helpful. Well, I've got to let you go now. So thank you so much.

K. My pleasure. It's been a joy.

Kirsty's dinner party conversation strategy

R. You know what? I think I knew all along what I have to do now that I'm old. I have to be interested in other people. It means listening to understand and stop pretending to listen. I need conversation as listening, not as performance. I — don't get me wrong. I think performance conversation is terrific fun. But it can get right out of whack.

Now, what I forgot to ask Kirsty was about her excellent strategy for including everyone in a dinner party conversation. Kirsty and I are both part of a neighbourhood group who meet often for a Sunday roast. We don't roast each other. We do the opposite really. We just talk and have dinner. But towards the end, the host, they ask a question or suggest a topic that everyone takes turns answering. Very light weight. It's not scary. It's not an exam. It's a change of pace, I suppose.

So last time it was, “What did you do last week that was memorable?” And we all take turns to answer at our leisure. Nobody interrupts or changes the subject. And it means that in a group of eight or 12, everyone says what they want to say and everyone gets listened to. What a treat. [Sound effect]

Here's a poem about old people having a conversation. It's by Rachel McAlpine. That's me.

A poem: How older people talk

We take anecdotes and turn them to the light.We polish them in private.They are touchstones. So it goes.

The rhythm of our talk is one of ocean waves.Someone starts with a great niece who is pregnantor a barking dog and one by onewe queue up with our fables to help our troubled friend.Nothing is solved, but variousscenarios are tendered.We have a bottomless pool of parables.We follow the way of Miss Marple.We use the stuff that life dumps at our door.We don't stand back. We go straight from A to Z.

Children have anecdotes toobut you could fit them in a lunchbox.They are missing the end of the story,the very bit they need.

That's all, I'm done, 'bye for now. Please follow the podcast if you expect to be old one day. Click on those three little dots or whatever and share it with one person who's old already. Bye. [Music]