0:05

Welcome to the first

0:05

ever episode of leafing out a

0:09

podcast about gardening. I'm

0:09

Rebecca. And I'm Gabe. And we

0:13

are not at all experts. We are

0:13

amateur gardeners. And we just

0:18

really like to learn about and

0:18

talk about gardening. So much so

0:22

that our friends were like,

0:22

Guys, you should really start a

0:25

podcast about gardening, aka

0:25

stop lecturing us about what we

0:29

should do in our own gardens. So

0:29

here we are.

0:32

Today, we're going to

0:32

be talking about garden layout

0:35

beginning at the beginning, and

0:35

perennials.

0:38

So we thought we would

0:38

provide sort of a general

0:40

framework for how to think about

0:40

creating a garden where there

0:44

isn't one.

0:45

Garden layout. This

0:45

is not you know, like home and

0:47

garden horticulture. I think

0:47

when we talk about garden layout

0:50

we're talking about you moved

0:50

into a house and it has a lawn

0:52

and you're like, how do I start?

0:52

Or you maybe you have a patio

0:55

and you're like, I want to do

0:55

some plants and pots just like

0:58

if you're a beginner the way we

0:58

were beginners A few years ago,

1:01

we're pretty much still

1:01

beginner, what's the first step?

1:04

How do you do it,

1:05

you really want to

1:05

follow the rationale of thinking

1:07

first about how you want to use

1:07

the space? Do you want to have

1:12

your garden be a respite from

1:12

the outside world where you can

1:17

find solace and read a book. And

1:17

so maybe you want a hammock? Or

1:22

do you want to throw big

1:22

barbecues every weekend and have

1:27

your kids have their friends

1:27

over and have room for like 12

1:30

people to eat, what's your

1:30

lifestyle, and sort of the

1:34

layout can follow that. So the

1:34

first step that you want to take

1:38

is looking at your hardscaping,

1:38

you kind of want to go big to

1:41

small. And the biggest elements

1:41

that you're going to deal with

1:43

is what's already there, or what

1:43

you want to add in terms of

1:47

permanent things like a patio,

1:47

any paths that might be there,

1:52

including like your sidewalks

1:52

somewhat borders, your property

1:56

hardscaping could also mean the

1:56

foundation of your house, if you

1:59

might be looking to put a

1:59

perennial border in front of the

2:03

foundation. So should we talk

2:03

about how what we did?

2:06

I think so yeah, we

2:06

moved into this house that has a

2:10

roughly 40 by 40 foot backyard,

2:10

it was all gravel, or I should

2:15

say it was mostly mud and some

2:15

gravel. It was like a gravel,

2:19

mud pit. Yeah, you know, in our

2:19

spacious,

2:21

so we thought we want

2:21

to make this whole thing green

2:24

space, let's pull out all the

2:24

gravel and make a patio.

2:27

And we wanted the

2:27

feeling of sort of an oasis.

2:30

Being in a city, you know, like

2:30

something that felt like really,

2:33

you walk into it. And it's kind

2:33

of this magical garden that

2:38

where you're enclosed in

2:38

greenery. So what that led us to

2:40

was a patio with a fire pit

2:40

board or gardens around all the

2:45

fence so that you in a few

2:45

years, when things are a little

2:48

taller, you won't really see the

2:48

fence, you'll just be surrounded

2:51

by plants, a few vegetable beds

2:51

because I wanted to grow

2:53

vegetables. And then sort of, we

2:53

call it a lawn. It's not a

2:58

traditional lawn, but it's like

2:58

a flat green space where you can

3:01

kind of, you know, we could run

3:01

around with the kids. But those

3:04

were sort of like, I would say

3:04

that the big elements that we

3:08

were that we worked out and then

3:08

everything else was sort of like

3:11

okay, well, when we have that

3:11

there, let's start a little bit

3:15

of time figure out what plants

3:15

go where,

3:17

right. And this is what we mean when you go big to small. Figure out your big stuff

3:19

first, starting with what do I

3:22

want to do in the space? How do

3:22

I want to feel? And then you do

3:26

all your hardscaping stuff. And

3:26

once you kind of have a plan of

3:30

what you know where the patio

3:30

goes where your grill goes, if

3:33

you're going to grill in your

3:33

space. paths, if you have a

3:37

compost bin, where are you

3:37

putting all that stuff? Where

3:39

does your hose setup go? Do you

3:39

want to have a bench setup for

3:45

potting plants? All of those

3:45

things, then you start figuring

3:49

out okay, where do I where am I

3:49

putting my big shrubs, what big

3:53

shrubs go where how much sun

3:53

versus shade, you know, start

3:58

selecting the big plants

3:59

just working big to

3:59

small so the biggest stuff being

4:02

like a patio. Then next, a large

4:02

shrub or tree than you know a

4:06

smaller shrub just kind of

4:06

working your way down moving

4:09

from things that are extremely

4:09

difficult to move to things that

4:12

are very easy to move.

4:13

Right right. So for us

4:13

it was putting in a pretty fast

4:17

growing shrub called ninebark.

4:17

And we have one that's that's

4:21

called d A bolo. ninebark that

4:21

it has really dark purple

4:25

leaves, it's beautiful and it's

4:25

going to grow, I think 10 feet

4:29

tall within six years or

4:29

something where we live. So we

4:33

put that in the ground. We put a

4:33

Rhododendron back in the back of

4:36

the garden in the shade, and

4:36

kind of worked our way out from

4:39

there saying okay, what might

4:39

look good next to these things

4:43

and started shaping from there,

4:43

what the beds would look like.

4:46

And once some of those were in

4:46

then we started looking at Okay,

4:49

smaller perennials, you know,

4:49

what do we love? What do we want

4:53

to plant where? What's parts on

4:53

what's full shade? How much how

4:57

much moisture do we get and

4:57

where and this is where you

4:59

start? to really have fun

4:59

because you start to find out

5:02

the tiny little details of the

5:02

microclimates that exist within

5:06

your garden, even if it is like

5:06

ours, just kind of the back

5:09

parking lot area of a house, you

5:09

know, we've learned, okay, this

5:13

area's a lot more moist, because

5:13

it gets a drip line from the

5:17

garage that it faces. So firms

5:17

grow really happily over there.

5:21

And this area gets like a little

5:21

more sun and heat than we

5:24

thought it did. So some things

5:24

are really happy there that we

5:27

didn't think would be happy.

5:27

That's when you start getting

5:30

into the like, painting with

5:30

colors of flowers and matching

5:35

things and using contrast and

5:35

all of that fun stuff that you

5:40

kind of think of as being what

5:40

gardening will be like, it kind

5:44

of has taken us a few steps to

5:44

get to that really fun, creative

5:49

point. But it's so worth it to

5:49

do it in this order. So that you

5:53

kind of establish things in line

5:53

with your vision,

5:56

and you're not having

5:56

to move trees. It's a pain.

5:59

Don't move a tree. It's so

5:59

rough, Gabe did it. I did it

6:03

once. You can do it. I don't

6:03

want to I don't you know, I

6:05

think that it's important to

6:05

sort of like, be encouraging or

6:09

whatever. But I think that like,

6:09

Yeah, but another thought that

6:13

came to mind, just as a way of

6:13

sort of conceptualizing it as

6:15

maybe thinking about it in terms

6:15

of like, what are your anchor

6:18

plants, you wouldn't plant like

6:18

a whole bunch of two foot tall

6:20

plants, and then be like, where

6:20

does the 10 foot tall plant fit

6:23

amongst these, of course, it

6:23

makes sense to work the other

6:26

way where you're like, Okay,

6:26

this, you know, we have a really

6:29

beautiful witchhazel that sort

6:29

of anchors one corner of our

6:33

garden. So we thought for a long

6:33

time about like, what, okay, we

6:36

definitely want a plant there

6:36

that is going to, when you're

6:39

sitting by the fire, obscure

6:39

your view of this alley that's

6:42

between our house and the next

6:42

house, kind of make you feel

6:45

enclosed. So we went through

6:45

making a bunch of lists of like,

6:48

what would grow there, what you

6:48

know, would look pretty what

6:51

would be really, you know,

6:51

bushy, so that it wouldn't just

6:55

be like a tree that sort of is

6:55

up and over the fence. But

6:58

actually something that would

6:58

have leaves from almost ground

7:01

level up to 10 feet tall, and

7:01

settled on the witchhazel, which

7:06

I think was a which is a great

7:06

choice, and then built that

7:08

whole corner around that

7:08

witchhazel. Okay, we've got the

7:11

big one. Now, what little ones

7:11

we want put in there. Oh, that

7:15

one didn't do too well, let's

7:15

move that over here. Maybe it'll

7:17

be happier over there. Let's try

7:17

this, that color would be fun.

7:20

Once you get down into those,

7:20

you know, lavender or Sage are

7:25

those other like sub shrubs,

7:25

some people call them, those are

7:29

so easy to move that you like

7:29

you're saying you can just kind

7:32

of play with them a little bit

7:32

and kind of move them around and

7:35

have a little more fun. Less

7:35

thinking more gardening. So what

7:40

are what are our takeaways? All

7:40

right, big, big to small. Don't

7:45

move trees. Yeah, and I guess

7:45

the other I'll do a little

7:51

devil's advocate as our as our

7:51

finisher here. I will say that,

7:54

like the point of gardening is

7:54

to have fun. So you know, it

8:00

should be a fun process. It

8:00

doesn't have to be a perfect

8:03

process. It can be something

8:03

where there are mistakes, you

8:06

can you can move a tree, you can

8:06

cut down a tree, you know, do it

8:10

in a way that is fun. Just kind

8:10

of imagine there's a balance

8:15

between just like having fun and

8:15

being at the garden center and

8:18

being like, Oh, this plant looks

8:18

great. I'm gonna buy it. And the

8:20

frustration of not having your

8:20

plant thrive. I do love an

8:24

impulse buy though. You got to

8:24

do some

8:26

I love it. I definitely

8:26

have come home with so many.

8:29

Here's these three, three,

8:29

here's three of this plant that

8:32

I have nowhere to put it but

8:32

we'll figure it out. So cool.

8:36

And that's, you know, you can't

8:36

take the joy out of that.

8:39

Yeah, yeah, keep your

8:39

impulse buys below five feet

8:42

mushy. Now we're gonna move into

8:42

a segment called stuff. I

8:51

googled. That's right, my

8:51

favorite segment, give what is

8:54

this segment? Why are we doing

8:54

this? That is a fair question.

8:57

If you made it here, you have

8:57

access to the internet and

9:01

YouTube and Google things. But

9:01

what we want to do was take a

9:05

topic that we spent a fair

9:05

amount of time googling fair

9:08

amount of time researching, and

9:08

give you the sparknotes the key

9:12

things that are helpful to know

9:12

about a certain topic.

9:15

So today we're going to

9:15

talk about the word perennial.

9:18

You hear it all the time in

9:18

gardening. What does it actually

9:20

mean scientifically? What does

9:20

it mean in common usage gave

9:24

what is a perennial,

9:26

the scientific

9:26

definition of a perennial is any

9:28

plant that lives for more than

9:28

two years.

9:30

Okay, so that's

9:30

interesting. I totally didn't

9:32

understand it. That way. I

9:32

usually think about perennials

9:36

versus annuals, you know,

9:36

something that lives versus

9:39

something that's just gonna last

9:39

this summer. But you're saying

9:42

that even if a plant lasts

9:42

through one winter and comes

9:47

back the next summer, it's not

9:47

necessarily a perennial?

9:51

That is right. So

9:51

we're talking about what is a

9:54

perennial, but that really

9:54

requires us to define the three

9:57

broad lifecycle categories of

9:57

plants. Which are annuals,

10:01

biennials, and perennials. So

10:01

animals grow flower, create seed

10:05

and die all in one year.

10:05

biennials grow roots stems and

10:09

leaves in their first year and

10:09

then grow flowers and seeds and

10:11

die in their second year. And

10:11

perennials come back for more

10:15

than two years. So you can have

10:15

a short lived perennial like

10:17

Columbine that might only

10:17

survive for three years. Or

10:21

scientifically speaking, the red

10:21

oak that we have in our backyard

10:23

is a perennial, and that can

10:23

live for 400 years.

10:26

Okay, so I guess that

10:26

brings us to the question of

10:30

like common usage, because if I

10:30

go to the perennial section of

10:34

the garden center, if I go to

10:34

Lowe's, usually there's like

10:37

annuals over here and perennials

10:37

over here. They're not selling

10:40

oak trees in the perennial

10:40

section, right,

10:43

right. If you go to

10:43

Lowe's, I don't know that they

10:45

sell oak trees, but certainly

10:45

they would be selling peach

10:48

trees, and those would be in you

10:48

know, the tree section, the

10:51

rhododendrons would be in the

10:51

shrub section. The common usage

10:54

definition is the important

10:54

definition. If you're getting

10:56

started gardening, you want to

10:56

understand what the perennial

10:59

section is, you want to understand what somebody is talking about when they say they

11:01

planted a perennial border

11:04

garden. They're saying that the

11:04

flowers, grasses and ferns and

11:08

other non woody plants that they

11:08

planted are perennial, which,

11:11

like we just said, means that

11:11

they come back every year. So

11:15

given that definition, what are

11:15

some of your favorite perennials

11:18

in our garden?

11:19

Oh, my gosh. So

11:19

perennials and our garden right

11:24

now. I'm sure there's a million

11:24

that come in the spring that

11:27

I've already kind of forgotten

11:27

about. This is the fun to me as

11:31

of gardening, as I'm always

11:31

like, Oh, my gosh, it's June.

11:34

It's suddenly there's that thing

11:34

I forgot that was here. Yeah.

11:38

That's kind of what the fun is a

11:38

perennials in general, too.

11:42

There's a magic to it.

11:43

Yeah, seeing things

11:43

come back that you forgot that

11:45

you planted and they died back

11:45

to all the way to the ground.

11:47

And then like, what is that

11:47

poking up again?

11:50

Oh, my gosh, that's

11:50

that thing, just like a phoenix.

11:52

Yeah, Phoenix Rising

11:52

from the mulch. Um, I think that

11:59

my favorites right at this

11:59

moment are definitely the

12:03

akinesia that we have, which is

12:03

very common here in New England.

12:08

akinesia, also known as

12:08

coneflower. The ones we have in

12:11

the garden are purple, pink,

12:11

they're dramatic. They kind of

12:15

make nice cut flowers I love

12:15

like chopping a few and bringing

12:19

them inside native, their native

12:19

eaters, the pollinators are

12:23

going crazy for them. And then,

12:23

alongside the coneflower, we

12:29

have a lot of this thing called

12:29

leatrice blazing star. So I'm

12:33

using the scientific name

12:33

followed by the common name

12:35

here, but it's typically called

12:35

blazing star, and it's about a

12:38

flower for us. And it's like

12:38

these big tall towers of sort of

12:43

furry looking purple flowers.

12:43

And I don't know, I really like

12:48

plants that look like Muppets.

12:48

And they these are these are an

12:53

example of that. And they're

12:53

also native and the pollinators

12:57

love them and they look really

12:57

great with coneflowers. They're

13:00

nice contrast to each other both

13:00

in sort of like the growing

13:04

habit and the color, they just

13:04

look good next to each other

13:07

that you can like kind of mix

13:07

them all together, and they look

13:10

good. I'm also really loving

13:10

this year Penstemon, which is

13:14

commonly called beard tongue, we

13:14

have pencil and growing up, I

13:18

think, is a varietal called dark

13:18

towers, the leaves and stock of

13:22

the plant are like a dark purple

13:22

and dark green color. And

13:26

there's really cool and kind of

13:26

witchy looking, and then the

13:29

flowers are sort of a lighter

13:29

purple and white, and it's just

13:34

dramatic, and a little bit

13:34

strange looking, which is

13:38

something that I like, not

13:38

everyone goes for that but we

13:41

kind of have like a witchy

13:41

woodland vibe going in our

13:45

garden. So I'm really enjoying

13:45

that and maybe an opportunity

13:49

for illustration. If

13:50

you went out into our

13:50

garden in January, and you

13:53

looked at our Penstemon, what would you see

13:55

nothing? Well, in

13:55

January, you'd probably see some

13:59

desiccated you know, remains of

13:59

the foliage that died off once

14:06

frost hit in fall, because we

14:06

don't really do a lot of yard

14:10

cleanup until well into spring.

14:10

But it would look like there's a

14:15

bunch of dead shit sitting

14:15

there. There's nothing to see

14:19

and why don't we do much yard

14:19

cleanup until

14:21

well into spring?

14:22

Well, I'll tell you

14:22

why. Because there might be some

14:26

insects that might be making

14:26

their home in some of that

14:30

desiccated stuff and also below

14:30

the ground. Sometimes the dead

14:36

foliage and plant matter that's

14:36

sitting on the ground is kind of

14:40

providing protection and

14:40

insulation for insects that are

14:44

I don't actually know if it's right to say that they're hibernating or they're pleading

14:45

a portion of their

14:49

lifecycle. Yeah, they're

14:51

like gestating, sort of

14:51

as pupa or, you know, whatever.

14:56

They're living in the ground

14:56

underneath. And so you want to

14:59

give them that portion. action

14:59

by just leaving your leaf matter

15:03

and plant matter until the

15:03

following spring. And I'll

15:07

take a you know,

15:07

you're talking about sort of

15:10

ecological reason a, you know,

15:10

garden ecosystem reason to leave

15:15

it. I'll give a stylistic reason

15:15

I think, get older, the

15:19

landscape designer talks about

15:19

leaving up your grasses and your

15:22

other perennials to give the

15:22

snow something to land on. I

15:25

think it's his phrase, which I always like,

15:27

yeah, there's something

15:27

kind of weird and beautiful

15:30

about seeing snowfall all over

15:30

your dead remains of the garden.

15:37

We have a friend who always is

15:37

like, Oh, I love it New England

15:41

and the winter, the fellow fee

15:41

you think of that what I'm

15:46

looking out over are like,

15:46

totally messy winter garden that

15:50

we didn't clean up. Because the

15:50

other reason we don't clean it

15:53

up is laziness. laziness,

15:54

laziness. I will say

15:54

though, that that to kind of

15:58

gives you this real sense of the

15:58

cyclical nature of the garden.

16:02

And when, you know, if you went

16:02

out and like, clean up all the

16:06

leaves and did like, you know,

16:06

superpro fall cleanup, you just

16:12

wind up with like a blank.

16:12

Nothing. To me, one of the

16:16

things that I love so much about

16:16

gardening is watching the

16:19

uniqueness of every cycle

16:19

unfold, and to see all of that

16:24

plant matter that is tied back,

16:24

you know where the pencil is,

16:27

you know where the Acacia is,

16:27

you know where the ferns are,

16:31

because you see those totally

16:31

dried out pieces of them. And to

16:35

me, it's sort of like this

16:35

reminder of like, the amazing

16:38

fact that there's a rhizome or a

16:38

tuber under there that's holding

16:41

all this life that's going to

16:41

kind of spring I guess, pun

16:45

intended to life. It's pretty

16:45

cool. So I guess that's

16:50

perennials. Did we sum it up? I

16:50

think we did it. I think we did

16:53

perennials. That's our episode.

16:53

Thanks for coming.

17:03

So that's our first episode. We

17:03

hope you've enjoyed leafing out

17:06

and if you ever have a gardening

17:06

question that you want us to

17:08

weigh in on, you can send us an

17:08

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17:13

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