0:00

So you published an article on masculinity and

0:02

the divide between men and women in Gen

0:04

Z .

0:04

So this recent polarisation

0:06

? Where do you think this comes from ?

0:08

It's so easy to blame social media for everything

0:10

, but I really do . I can't unlink

0:13

the fact that this is happening at the

0:15

same time as we are more and more

0:17

on our phones and scrolling through

0:19

social media . I do definitely think

0:21

that feminism is misunderstood . There's

0:23

always a need for feminism , you know . I don't know

0:25

if it will ever get to a point where it's like

0:27

completely unnecessary .

0:29

Do you think it could be possible to have

0:31

a point in time where we are just

0:33

completely equal as men and women

0:36

?

0:36

I want us to eventually get to a place

0:38

, but I just think that there's lots of complicated

0:41

factors that go into it .

0:42

What do you think about male privilege

0:44

? Does male privilege exist ? Does it

0:46

not exist ?

0:48

Like , like . Feminism

0:51

encompasses so many different things

0:53

, and people's idea of what feminism

0:55

is changes a lot .

0:56

And also feminism in America

0:58

is very different to feminism in the UK than

1:01

to feminism in Africa and

1:04

in Pakistan .

1:05

It's so important to appreciate that different countries and cultures in the UK then

1:07

to feminism in Africa and in Pakistan . It's

1:09

so important to appreciate that different countries and cultures will need something different from

1:11

feminist activism . It's not all just one homogenous idea

1:14

.

1:14

How do we tackle the growing division

1:16

? I've not seen people online

1:19

be so divided in terms of gender

1:21

as I have right now .

1:22

I think we need to get offline

1:24

and I just think we need to be having conversations

1:27

, definitely with empathy .

1:29

Mila , we always end our podcast on the

1:31

deep end . What would you want written on your tombstone

1:33

?

1:34

I have not even thought about what would I want

1:36

written on my tombstone .

1:44

In today's episode we spoke to Mila Strixević

1:46

. Mila is a very good friend of mine

1:48

who is currently studying at King's College London

1:50

. She's doing a degree

1:52

in religion politics and society

1:54

. In our conversation

1:56

we spoke about feminism and

1:59

the harms of social media . We

2:01

hope you find this conversation as insightful

2:03

as we did . Thank you so much for listening

2:05

. Speaking of political chats you

2:08

spoke to Professor Duffy .

2:10

Yes , I did , professor Campbell .

2:11

Yeah , very smart people . I've read

2:14

on them you guys talked about

2:16

. So you published an article on masculinity

2:18

and the divide between men and women

2:20

in Gen Z . Would you like to tell us

2:22

more about that ?

2:24

Yeah , it was . So it wasn't

2:26

my original research . It was

2:28

an interview with Professor

2:30

Duffy from the Policy Institute and

2:32

Professor Campbell from the Institute

2:35

for Global Women's Leadership

2:37

, and their research was looking

2:39

at the polarization , or the

2:41

growing polarization between

2:43

, especially young men and women

2:45

over masculinity , feminism

2:48

, you know , do we need feminism anymore

2:50

? And their research kind of found

2:52

that within our age demographic

2:55

and I think they were specifically looking

2:57

at sort of 16 to 25 year olds when

2:59

they said Gen Z there's

3:02

a growing divide between men

3:04

and women over um , like

3:07

whether masculinity is , like a helpful

3:09

term , you know , toxic masculinity

3:12

. Do we need feminism ? Has it done more harm

3:14

than good ? And so

3:16

the research was interesting because that's not that

3:18

common in generations to be so

3:20

divided , and it's

3:22

not really just on feminism

3:25

. Like other financial times , um

3:27

research has found that men and women

3:29

are growing politically more apart

3:31

. So women tend to vote more um

3:34

liberally , like more for labor , where

3:36

there's young men are voting more for conservative

3:39

and more um right-wing

3:41

parties , which is interesting because it's just

3:43

it's not so common in generations

3:46

yeah , I wonder what like

3:48

variables affect these decisions

3:50

.

3:51

Is it our biology , or is it more

3:53

like social behavior , like

3:55

more , more of our environment ?

3:58

I mean I yeah , I don't see how you could say that it's

4:00

biology , because this is such a new like

4:03

phenomenon that within a generation

4:05

it's kind of growing apart , although

4:07

they did caveat by saying , okay

4:10

, it is significant in that men

4:12

and women are growing , but it's not . It's

4:14

not that like . It's not

4:16

like literally all women think one thing

4:19

and all men in gen in our

4:21

generation think another . So you

4:23

have to be a bit careful about you know , generalizing

4:26

all men and women have you noticed

4:28

this type of divide in your own

4:30

life as well ?

4:31

or do you think this is just the

4:34

study , is just an internet type of thing

4:36

.

4:36

I find it actually quite difficult . It

4:39

was I was thinking about this because , on

4:41

the one hand , I guess we all know , yeah

4:44

, online , people like Andrew Tate , you know they're

4:46

stirring the pot and they , you know

4:48

, are kind of there's , there's this idea that

4:50

like men don't think that feminism is necessary

4:53

anymore . But in my own life , at

4:55

university , for example , I

4:57

don't really surround myself with like men that

4:59

would think that way . I , you know , if somebody

5:01

said something really misogynistic to me , I'd

5:03

be okay , I don't want to be friends with them anymore

5:05

. So , it

5:07

is kind of a weird like

5:10

they disconnect , where you

5:12

kind of know that some people think this

5:14

way but in my own life I don't

5:16

see it so much really

5:26

. See it like online , you know if I like one , or on tiktok if I'm scrolling and I see one

5:28

like red pill . You know video and I view it then a hundred more are

5:30

gonna pop up and um

5:32

, so I definitely see

5:34

it online , but in real life you don't . I don't

5:36

know if you guys like feel the same way , but

5:38

I don't feel like I actually hear that many people

5:40

just out and out talking about it

5:42

yeah , I feel like there are less echo

5:44

chambers in real life .

5:46

Yeah , it's like online , you just get

5:48

go in a rabbit hole because the algorithm

5:50

feeds you what you want and I

5:52

wonder to what extent you

5:54

know , is that affecting our

5:56

critical thinking ? Because if you're just getting

5:59

one perspective whether it's from

6:01

a toxic , you know whether it's toxic

6:03

masculinity or some other you

6:05

know harmful ideology that

6:07

people are constantly feeding you and

6:10

although you might not be , let's say , you might

6:12

be a quite open-minded person

6:14

, but because you are receiving is

6:16

such a high quantity that

6:18

it just ends up influencing you in

6:20

some shape or form without you even realizing , especially

6:22

if you're young and impressionable mind yeah

6:24

, no , definitely .

6:26

And also , if you're

6:28

kind of taking in all

6:30

of these videos but not actually talking about it

6:32

to anyone , I think that's maybe why

6:34

the disconnect is there is because

6:37

people see these videos in their own

6:39

, you know , in their home or on the bus home

6:41

from uni or whatever , and they're scrolling and you're

6:43

taking all this kind of like

6:45

slightly misogynistic ideas

6:47

or things that , like , women are to blame for

6:50

, um , I don't know bad

6:52

things that are happening in young men's lives and

6:54

but you're not talking about it with anyone else . And

6:56

then there's this polarization

6:59

that it's hard like I can't , young

7:02

women can't see or they don't

7:04

hear it like out loud . You know from other

7:06

people . And I think that's why it's so important to

7:08

talk about it . You know , on podcasts or

7:11

like on university campuses

7:13

, like have young men and women like

7:15

just talking about these issues , because I

7:17

think sometimes , like men

7:20

maybe just don't understand , like just

7:22

because legally there might be like

7:24

legal , for example , the wage

7:26

gap comes up so much where , okay , yeah , legally

7:28

men and women have to be paid the same , but

7:30

that's not all misogyny

7:33

. That's that is not the only thing , that

7:35

when young women experience , but if you're

7:37

not talking to women about their actual

7:40

experiences in real life , then you just maybe

7:42

you just wouldn't know yeah , like

7:45

there's safety outside that .

7:47

One survey that showed that showed that 97

7:50

percent of women in uk

7:52

have experienced some sort of harassment

7:54

, like things , of things like that , right

7:56

, where men they don't really . I mean , their

7:58

problems are different . I'm not saying they don't have problems

8:01

, but they're not aware of the

8:03

problems women might be going through and

8:05

like where they a workplace as well . For example

8:07

, um , one of my friend

8:10

, uh friend , who works in

8:12

a in this law firm , uh

8:14

, so she gets asked a question like you know

8:16

, are you gonna get married or

8:19

you're pregnant ? You know , are you gonna have kids ? And you

8:21

know how is that gonna work , are you gonna be attending work

8:23

? And a lot of women don't get hired because

8:25

of these reasons . Yeah , on paper

8:28

it's not like , uh , what you call

8:30

it , it's not misogyny , but it's still

8:32

patriarchy in a way . Like it's , you know

8:34

, you get , you get what I'm saying like it's not like , oh , they're being

8:36

, it's like

8:38

I don't know how to quite word

8:40

it it's although

8:42

, although in terms of flow

8:44

, yeah , they might still be getting paid the same

8:46

, but these factors do , um

8:49

, they do hinder women in

8:51

getting a lot of opportunities because

8:53

factors like this companies

8:55

take into mind because they're all about profit

8:57

, especially in a capitalistic economy

8:59

where it's all about profit , right , and

9:02

if women are going to miss six months of work or

9:04

more than that , uh , then

9:06

it's they did . They

9:09

will end up hiring less women for

9:11

these reasons , without any compensation yeah

9:13

, definitely .

9:14

I mean , I guess it's that kind of insidious , it's

9:17

like no one's saying it

9:19

out and out to your face this is the reason why

9:21

you're not getting hired , but

9:23

at the same time , it's that unconscious , as

9:25

you say , well , a woman of

9:27

a certain age might potentially get pregnant

9:30

. So therefore , um yeah

9:32

, we won't hire you . That is like . One

9:34

part of the wage gap is that women take

9:36

more time off of work , typically if they have

9:38

children , and so they're not

9:41

picking up as many shifts or they're not progressing

9:43

in the same way that men their age

9:45

would progress who aren't having to take time off

9:47

work . So all of these factors

9:50

are , um , yeah , they're

9:52

, they're part of it , and you maybe just wouldn't

9:54

necessarily see that unless you were taking the

9:56

time to , uh , talk

9:58

to women and , you

10:00

know , read up more yourself on

10:03

it so this recent

10:05

polarization that you mentioned

10:07

in the article , where do you think this

10:09

comes from ? um

10:12

, I don't know , I feel like

10:14

it's so easy to blame social media for everything

10:16

, but I really do feel

10:18

that I I

10:20

just I can't unlink the

10:22

fact that this kind of polarization

10:25

is happening at the same time as

10:27

we are more and more on this anxiety

10:30

, especially for young men and and

10:32

women . But , like

10:48

I'm thinking around the age of 14 , 15

10:51

, like I know , my views were always

10:53

changing . I mean , I'm sure that I've

10:55

said stuff when I was like 14 that I would cringe

10:57

at now , because you're

11:00

kind of exploring , like your , your thoughts about the world and

11:02

and that's like the perfect age . You're kind of exploring , like your , your thoughts about

11:04

the world , and that's like the perfect age . You're a bit stressed about

11:06

what , what's the world going to look like for me , what's

11:08

my future going to be like ? And then people

11:10

come along that kind of offer this

11:12

solution to you , that that

11:15

, um , these problems are not your fault

11:18

. Uh , they're the , they're the problems of other people

11:20

, and feminism is is ruining things

11:22

for you , and and , uh , and that's kind

11:24

of a maybe more palatable

11:27

than um , like other

11:29

, um , other

11:32

problems , like maybe more structurally

11:34

. I'm not saying that men should be blaming themselves , but

11:36

, um , I do think

11:38

that it's just . It's very easy because women are right

11:41

there , you know , in the classrooms with you , so it's pretty

11:43

easy to just blame girls that are around

11:45

you yeah

11:47

, I think that's a good point .

11:49

I think we see this like all throughout

11:51

society now , where people are looking

11:53

for other people to blame instead of taking

11:56

a look at themselves first

11:58

and see , like what can I do to myself

12:00

? Maybe do a bit of self improvement or whatever

12:02

. It's like it's all that guy's fault

12:04

and if he wasn't here I'd

12:07

be doing so well . It's like how anti-immigration

12:10

people it's all the immigrants fault

12:12

if they weren't here like the country would be in

12:14

a great place . I think it's quite

12:16

similar to that . But I personally

12:18

think another big issue is as well

12:20

that men and women don't

12:22

really try and understand each other

12:24

and , like men don't

12:27

try and see the world from women's perspective

12:29

and women don't try and understand the world

12:31

from men's perspective as well . And

12:33

I think this is why you have a lot of these young

12:35

men getting so frustrated

12:37

and like a bit disillusioned with the

12:40

world , because it

12:42

I think there is . There is a case to

12:44

be made that women do

12:46

want men to like see

12:48

the world how they see it , and they get confused

12:51

when that's not the case

12:53

, and then vice versa , the

12:55

same for men men want women to see the world

12:57

how they see it and when it doesn't happen

12:59

, they're like why not ? But I

13:01

think the issue is , like you just need to understand

13:04

each other first . Like we might

13:06

not be exactly the same doesn't

13:08

mean we're intrinsically not

13:10

equal . We don't hold the same value

13:13

. We might see the world differently

13:15

because we are different

13:17

. I think that's one key

13:19

thing that's being lost

13:21

now . Like men , women are different

13:24

, like we're not exactly the same everyone knows

13:26

that we have different chromosomes , but

13:28

doesn't mean we're different in value

13:30

. And doesn't mean like we

13:32

should blame other people

13:35

or hold them to account

13:37

for our actions . Like let's just have dialogue

13:39

and communicate and see how

13:41

we can make the world a better place yeah

13:44

, I totally agree with you and I think another

13:47

I want to add to that .

13:48

Another issue is lack of education as well

13:50

. I don't think these men quite understand what

13:53

feminism is . Feminism

13:55

is about men and women having

13:57

you know , uh , in like

13:59

that inherent , what do you what ?

14:01

do you believe ? What do you think ?

14:03

exactly as the woman here , yeah I

14:05

mean , I guess I I do definitely think

14:07

that feminism is understood , misunderstood

14:09

. To me , it's about men

14:12

and women , um , being

14:14

perceived as equal . Um

14:16

, the thing is , there's so many different

14:18

aspects of feminism that it's kind

14:20

of difficult to unpack into one sentence

14:23

. It's , and at different

14:25

stages of your life , it means obviously

14:27

different things . It's

14:30

, you know , you know , in the workplace , at

14:32

home , just socially

14:34

. I think that as

14:37

you , as you , you know

14:39

grow into a young woman , it's not wanting to be sexualized

14:41

when you're walking down the street , but

14:45

when you're a young girl , it's maybe

14:47

feeling like you want to do the same things

14:49

that young boys do , you know , having

14:51

equal opportunities to go and do things like

14:53

playing football , or , you

14:56

know . That seems like such a silly example , but

14:59

I remember when I was young and I

15:01

was in a football um , I went , I

15:03

used to go and play football after school and the

15:05

women's team , um , or the girls

15:07

team , we had a different coach , like

15:09

every week , whereas the boys team

15:11

was taken a lot more seriously . And

15:14

you know why is that ? Why isn't , um

15:16

, the same amount of money being poured into

15:18

like women's football as it is to men's ? And

15:20

now I do think that things are

15:22

changing . But

15:24

it's just about feeling like you

15:26

men and women are given equal opportunities

15:29

to achieve like

15:32

success in their life and of

15:34

course that's different at different stages

15:36

in different contexts . But

15:39

I do think it's misunderstood because a

15:42

lot of young men think that it's somehow

15:45

that women want to literally completely , you

15:47

know dominate and they want men to feel

15:49

terrible about themselves . And that's

15:52

just not what it is and it feels ignorant to

15:54

me when young men say this , especially people

15:57

like Andrew Tate that capitalize off

15:59

of that . I mean , he just wants to make money

16:01

. You know people like that and I don't I

16:04

don't take what they say seriously

16:06

. But then a lot of young boys

16:08

, especially like you know , around 14

16:10

, 15 , when you're kind of more impressionable

16:12

, you do start to hear

16:14

these kind of subconscious or

16:17

you know these messages from people um

16:20

like that , these the red pill

16:22

youtubers , as we've been , as we've been

16:24

saying , and um take it

16:26

in , and then of course that makes you blame

16:29

feminism for everything and

16:31

kind of misunderstand it yeah , I

16:34

think , like these young

16:36

boys and these young men , they

16:38

they do feel like a bit disillusioned

16:40

with society anyway , a bit like they're outcasts

16:43

and they're not fitting in .

16:45

And then these men , these

16:47

influencers , these red pill

16:49

guys , they capitalize

16:52

on that , like you said . So

16:54

I think if there is more communication

16:56

to understand these

16:58

young men and these boys first , instead

17:00

of like ridiculing them

17:02

for having questions and like thinking certain

17:04

things , I think it would go a long way

17:07

. Because , like in

17:09

society now , it's almost if

17:11

you don't think a certain way , people are like

17:13

shocked and it's like , oh my god , how

17:15

could you even think that ? And no one wants to

17:17

have that conversation . But the

17:19

best way to combat stuff like that is to

17:21

actually have the conversation , understand

17:24

where they're coming from and then change

17:26

their mind by giving like rational

17:28

arguments and stuff . Even if someone

17:30

was like being islamophobic or racist

17:32

to us , I wouldn't just like ridicule

17:35

them and say what are you talking about ? I'd have

17:37

a conversation and say , no , like this

17:39

is my perspective on it and hopefully

17:41

, if they're not just a malicious person

17:43

, if they don't have bad intent , they'll realize

17:46

that . And I don't think a lot of these boys are these

17:48

people who are being like almost brainwashed

17:50

by these red pill content

17:52

creators . They're just young men looking

17:55

for somewhere to fit in and for the world

17:57

to understand them and unfortunately

17:59

, these like predators . That's

18:01

what they are .

18:02

These people like fresh and fit and stuff capitalize

18:04

on that yeah , I mean it's

18:07

, in some ways it feels a bit frustrating

18:10

because I want to say , to like

18:12

lots of young men that feel this way , disillusioned

18:15

, like you know , we're on the same team

18:17

almost . You know young

18:19

men that feel , for example , like

18:21

loneliness was a big thing , this like epidemic

18:24

of young people feeling lonely , and it's not just

18:26

young men that feel lonely , it's young women

18:28

too . But like young men not feeling

18:30

like they can express their emotions , um

18:33

, that's , that's a product

18:35

, that's not something that , like feminists

18:37

want . They , they're not feminists , don't want men

18:40

to be like repressed emotionally . That doesn't

18:42

benefit anyone , you know . And

18:44

so these people like Fresh

18:46

and Fit or Andrew Tate , that kind of

18:48

say your problems are

18:51

, are because of feminists and

18:53

they're rising up and they don't . You know , whatever

18:56

they say , it's , it's not , it's

18:58

not based in reality . You know , young

19:00

women do not want , um , young

19:02

men to be facing these problems of of

19:05

loneliness , of like

19:07

repressed emotion . It's

19:09

not , it doesn't serve anyone .

19:11

It's what I would say yeah , I mean , I couldn't

19:13

agree more . And another issue I have with that

19:15

narrative that these red pill youtubers

19:18

and , you know , these um figures

19:20

like andrew tate , like you know , promote

19:22

, is that they they treat

19:25

feminism and as a monolithic term

19:27

, it's like , and they generalize

19:29

and oversimplify a lot . They may have

19:32

seen issues in their culture and their upbringing

19:34

where you know , they may have seen some aspects

19:36

in feminism that you know what we

19:38

need a discussion about , rather than demonizing

19:40

the women , which is , you said , is

19:42

the wrong approach . Right to

19:45

conversation , yes , you can discuss that , but instead you

19:47

demonize the , the word , right

19:49

, the word and the whole . Basically , uh

19:51

, you polarize the men

19:54

and women further and instead of

19:56

understanding what feminism truly is like

19:59

, for example , you look at afghanistan , right , 4.3 million girls are out of school . So for anyone to say that feminism isn't , and instead of understanding what feminism truly is like , for example , you look at Afghanistan

20:01

, right , 4.3

20:03

million girls are out of school . So for anyone to say that feminism isn't needed

20:05

and we that we shouldn't , oh , there's

20:08

no need to , no longer need to empower

20:10

women and speak for their

20:12

equal rights , right ? You must

20:14

be out of your mind . You know , there are many

20:16

societies and many places where women

20:19

can't work , they don't have access to education

20:22

, they don't have any job prospects . It's

20:25

like we can't ignore that . We

20:28

can't just look at the little sample

20:30

he might be collecting , you

20:32

know , and maybe they are

20:34

right in their criticism , but

20:36

again it's how they go about . Number one , demonizing

20:39

women . And number two , how oversimplify

20:42

they simplify

20:44

the problem .

20:45

They oversimplify the problem , which

20:48

is only more damaging to

21:03

to say that because , oh , we don't need feminism in the uk , or or when women and men are

21:05

seen as equal in the us , even though , like okay , I don't believe necessarily

21:07

that . But to then say , well , we don't need feminism

21:09

at all . As you say , like there's so many places

21:12

where where women and men are not equal

21:14

and , um , I don't even want to say

21:16

it's just about like women , because I do understand

21:19

that there's problems that men face as well . I just

21:21

think , like gender equally

21:23

, like across

21:25

the board , there's places where men and women

21:27

need help . And to say like , oh well

21:30

, it's all fixed in this country , so therefore we don't

21:32

need it anymore . To me it just

21:34

yeah , it doesn't feel

21:36

like a compassionate

21:39

take at all it doesn't

21:41

feel like a compassionate take at all .

21:43

Yeah , I mean , the same logic does not make sense in any kind of human

21:45

rights policies Because if like , okay

21:47

, let's say , your country managed to , let's

21:49

say , achieve a lot of equality

21:54

, like equality in terms of financial equality

21:56

, oh , we're at a good level now

21:58

we don't need it anymore . What , Like

22:02

? It doesn't make any sense . No , we have to maintain it . Yes , if

22:04

the pay gap and the women , women

22:07

rights are a lot more in the western societies now

22:09

, you can't just say , although

22:11

there's no longer need for feminism I

22:13

do think like there's always a need

22:15

for feminism .

22:16

You know , I don't know if it will ever get to a

22:18

point where it's like completely unnecessary

22:21

yeah , I think all all relationships

22:24

is just you need to put an effort in always

22:26

for it to be maintained at a healthy

22:28

level . And this is just the

22:30

relationship . It's dynamics between men

22:33

, women , women , women , men , men

22:35

, like the whole world . So I think that is

22:37

fair . But like do you think it

22:39

could be possible to have a

22:42

situation , a

22:44

point in time , where we are just completely

22:47

equal as men and women ? There's

22:49

no rights that men have

22:51

that women don't have .

22:53

There's no like fear

22:55

that women need to have in society I

22:58

mean , you know , of course I hope so

23:00

, um , but

23:02

I just I'm not , I don't know , I

23:04

just I don't see like

23:07

how at the moment , but like , of course

23:09

, like I'm , I do think that , like

23:11

I want us to eventually get

23:13

to a place , but I just think

23:15

that there's lots of complicated factors

23:17

that go into it . It's , um

23:20

, like patriarchy doesn't seem

23:22

to be like I mean

23:24

, it's still very much present right now . You know

23:26

, um , like even people

23:28

like uh , like andrew tate , who's saying

23:30

you know all this stuff , I mean he's , he's

23:33

being uh charged with like sex trafficking

23:35

, you know assault , uh

23:37

, and I think how can we take this person seriously

23:39

when he's saying that there's this myth

23:41

of like patriarchy and

23:43

all this , when this is

23:46

the very thing he's upholding ? So I

23:48

don't know , it's hard for me to say

23:50

, okay , yeah , one day we'll get to a point

23:52

where men and women will be equal . I

23:55

do think we need to just be having more conversations

23:57

about it , unless on the phone , you

24:00

know , scrolling through tiktok yeah

24:02

I saw that

24:05

the government are thinking about banning phones

24:07

for under 16 , so like banning

24:09

the sale of smartphones . I don't know what you

24:11

guys think about that , but I think it would be a good starting

24:14

point it's a bit controversial , I guess

24:16

an idea but that is

24:18

interesting , because how do you implement

24:21

that ?

24:21

or if , like a parent , buys someone

24:23

a phone and then gives it to them , do the police

24:25

arrest 15 year olds with phones

24:28

on the street I'm not sure

24:30

.

24:30

I'm not sure that's gonna happen , but I do think

24:32

like I don't know

24:34

. I mean , there's a reason why all of these like

24:36

tech billionaires don't let their kids

24:39

have smartphones . You know , um

24:42

, who was it that invented the iphone ? Tim

24:44

cook uh , steve

24:46

, steve jobs , steve jobs yeah

24:48

, well , they all say like they don't let their

24:50

children like have iphones

24:53

because they know like it's so addictive and

24:55

like the person that invented the refresh

24:57

button on twitter like came

24:59

out and said he regretted it .

25:01

Yeah and the guy who made the unlimited scroll

25:03

. You know how you can keep scrolling forever

25:05

. You'd have to . You used to have to press next

25:08

page but , now on stuff

25:10

you can just scroll forever , the guy who

25:12

made ? That is like oh sorry

25:14

guys yeah , even the 4chan

25:16

guys .

25:17

They regretted really a lot of things

25:19

.

25:19

Yeah , yeah I think if I had kids

25:21

I wouldn't let them on social media . But I feel

25:23

like a phone just how

25:26

unsafe everything is at the

25:28

moment like at least some sort of brick

25:30

phone or something .

25:31

Yeah , I would give them brick phone . Yeah well , they

25:33

didn't specify this would be smartphones so

25:36

I think brick phones are okay , but no like

25:38

bring them back .

25:39

Yeah , we need to make brick phones

25:41

cool again . Yeah , you know 100

25:44

.

25:44

I like that . I like that tagline . What

25:46

I wanted to ask also was

25:48

what is toxic masculinity ?

25:50

um , that's a good question . I don't feel

25:52

like I'm the right person to answer that , um

25:55

, but but I guess toxic

25:57

masculinity to me is , um

26:01

, it's kind of what we've been talking about , isn't

26:03

it ? It's like people that are these

26:05

, like alpha male , they

26:07

think that , like men need to be no

26:10

emotion , they need to be . They're

26:13

like the top , you

26:17

know , the top people over women , that women are

26:19

subordinate . There's

26:22

lots of things that go into toxic masculinity . I think maybe

26:24

you're , I feel like you're probably better placed to tell

26:26

me what you think what would

26:28

you like to give us a take ?

26:30

what's toxic masculinity ?

26:32

I don't know . I feel like I

26:35

think there is just like just toxic

26:37

people in general . I don't

26:40

know if it comes from masculinity . I feel like

26:42

if that same person

26:44

who's like got toxic masculinity

26:46

if he was a woman , he'd probably be toxic

26:48

as well . Do you know what I mean ?

26:51

yeah , I get what you mean , but what ?

26:52

but maybe in a different way . I just let

26:55

me think . See , I should

26:57

have thought about this already . You

27:00

go and you tell me what you .

27:02

For me , it's like when there's a constant

27:04

projection of insecurities

27:06

and you never take accountability

27:08

and you always blame women for your problems

27:10

. If you , for example , someone , can't get

27:12

a girlfriend , it's women's fault , not

27:15

his fault . He's never looked into the mirror whether how

27:17

he presents himself , um

27:19

, so you're not in cell culture like that's I

27:21

. I think it's toxic and I

27:23

think it's just like what what's ?

27:26

what's that got to do with masculinity , though

27:28

? Like that's what I don't understand

27:30

about the term . Why

27:32

is that toxic masculinity ? Is

27:34

it just because a man's men are

27:36

doing it ? Because I don't find that

27:39

mass a masculine thing to

27:41

do at all no

27:43

, no , but it's like a mask .

27:44

So when we talk about healthy masculinity , no

27:47

, it's not a healthy masculine

27:49

trait yeah , but I just don't find it as

27:51

a masculine trait at all

27:53

like , but it's because they think they're

27:55

entitled , they think that all women

27:57

should be liking them and it's women's for it . They

28:00

can . You know what ? Why , then , like ? It's

28:02

like this sense of entitlement

28:04

, like why am I repeating myself

28:06

? So they feel like how

28:11

do I word this man ?

28:15

I think . I think that's a quite

28:17

an important question to ask , maybe

28:20

like why is it ? Why are some

28:22

actions specifically toxic

28:24

masculinity ?

28:26

well , I mean , I think that

28:28

the the the thing about

28:31

toxic masculinity is like

28:33

women don't tend to have these same

28:35

uh , not to generalize , but definitely

28:38

in our generation . Um

28:41

, the reason why people talk about toxic

28:43

masculinity , it's these like ideas

28:45

that men should like , repress

28:47

their emotions , that men

28:49

need to go out and they need to be dominant

28:51

and they need to be like all

28:54

of these they need to attain for things that

28:56

are just , are not that ? Like

28:58

that women don't tend to .

29:00

I feel like that that repress

29:02

your emotions . Thing that really

29:04

makes sense is like something you'd say is toxic

29:07

masculinity . But some of these other

29:09

things , just I don't see why they're

29:11

associated .

29:12

So abusing , like for example , their strength

29:14

right because , men are biologically

29:16

stronger and if they

29:18

were to misuse that power like you

29:21

look at domestic violence , you know

29:23

things of that nature would be then a toxic

29:25

man , right like a toxic masculinity . The

29:27

man has no control over his testosterone

29:30

levels and you know I don't know .

29:32

I don't know if that's toxic masculinity

29:34

, though to me that's just a really bad human

29:37

being the

29:40

repressing the emotions thing . It's like that

29:43

is considered like a masculine

29:45

thing to do . Abusing

29:47

people isn't considered

29:49

a but because you're powerful you're physically , yeah

29:52

, but that's just the biological , biologic

29:54

reality .

29:55

Biological reality to be like , men

29:58

are generally more strong , stronger

30:00

than women so they can say the same thing about emotions

30:02

that men are generally like they repress

30:05

emotions and they're less emotional , less empathetic

30:07

. So then , is that they take it to an

30:09

extreme ?

30:10

yeah , so it's a it's

30:12

like a masculine thing to repress

30:14

emotions and therefore it's a toxic masculine

30:17

thing . It's not a masculine thing to like

30:19

beat up your wife , for example . It's

30:21

not . It might be masculine to be like big

30:24

and strong .

30:24

Yeah , it's not masculine , so it's toxic masculine

30:27

, like it's , I think , but you're right like why

30:29

are we assigning it to ? Why are

30:31

we bringing the term masculinity into it ? Why

30:33

? Don't we just call it toxic behaviour . That's

30:35

a very good question and I'm struggling in some

30:38

ways . It

30:40

just needs more thinking .

30:41

I think we've just kind of I

30:43

do think we have

30:45

to think that this is behaviours that have been perpetuated

30:48

under patriarchy . So , for

30:50

example , men Abusing

30:53

their strength and feeling

30:56

like they can , you know , like beat up

30:58

women or like rape culture

31:00

is perpetuated by patriarchy

31:02

. These kind of ideas that men

31:04

are dominant over women

31:07

, emotions

31:09

, repressing your emotions it's

31:11

kind of something that's perpetuated by

31:13

patriarchy , like that's

31:15

kind of the toxic masculinity

31:17

side

31:20

of it or underestimating women , for

31:22

example .

31:22

Let's say if a woman was to come into politics

31:24

or you know like

31:27

what would be considered masculine industries , whether

31:29

it's the they just look down upon

31:31

. They're not treated as like . You know what , which

31:33

. What value do you really bring Like

31:36

? You're not a man , like you know ?

31:37

Yeah , that makes sense , like look at the police force .

31:39

For example , in Pakistan , 2%

31:41

of the Pakistani women

31:43

sorry police force includes

31:46

women . So most women like can't

31:48

, basically they can't

31:50

discuss their issues of like

31:52

, sexual assault and such problems

31:55

with male police officers . So it's

31:57

a huge problem . And because women ? Because

31:59

because becoming

32:01

a police officer is seen as a masculine thing , then

32:04

women are excluded . They're like oh , you're a woman

32:06

, you should just get married and wife and do your feminine

32:08

things . It's bad to be a police officer

32:11

. But then we have , because

32:13

of that , we don't have support

32:15

systems for a lot of victims

32:18

that are women . So

32:20

that would be an example . I think that

32:22

can come on , uh , on the spot , uh

32:25

, what would be in a

32:30

society . But I

32:33

don't like , I

32:35

understand this thing very little .

32:36

I think clearly we need to think more

32:38

about this yeah , I mean , this was part of the research

32:41

is toxic masculinity

32:43

? Is it even really a helpful term , like

32:45

lots of people think ? Not really

32:47

. Um , I think sometimes

32:49

it seems to trivialize

32:51

, like this term , toxic masculinity just

32:53

trivializes issues that are really

32:55

serious . Um , like

32:59

it , you know the the

33:01

this idea that , like , men perpetuate

33:03

violence onto women , um

33:05

, for example , like domestic violence or

33:07

uh , like to say that

33:10

this is like a product of toxic masculinity

33:12

seems trivial to me . It

33:14

doesn't seem like the right term to be

33:16

using . I understand that , like , um

33:18

, saying that that men have more repressed emotions

33:21

. Maybe that seems like okay , that could be a toxic

33:24

masculine trait . But I do think

33:26

there's maybe an argument that toxic masculinity

33:28

has become such a overused

33:31

term that it's kind of meaningless now . And

33:33

and also , like , if

33:35

you're a young man and you're trying

33:37

to figure out your identity

33:40

and where you fit into the world and people

33:42

are only talking about toxic masculinity

33:44

, I could see that big

33:46

feeling . Like I

33:48

could see why young men would feel like

33:50

frustrated or maybe

33:52

confused about why masculinity

33:56

always seems to be associated with , like

33:58

talk , the word toxic yeah and maybe

34:00

it's just not that helpful anymore to be describing

34:03

if we really want to move

34:05

forward and be , you know , educating

34:08

um young men and young women

34:10

together , maybe using terms like toxic

34:12

masculinity . It just isn't that helpful because

34:15

it sends off these . This idea

34:17

of like masculinity is , um

34:20

, I don't know , not

34:22

a good thing , or I can understand

34:24

why people would have that perception

34:26

what ?

34:28

what do you think about ? Uh , male

34:30

privilege , because I've seen a lot of conversations

34:32

like does male privilege exist ? Does

34:34

it not exist ?

34:36

um , I mean , there's no doubt that it exists

34:39

. I think the experiences that , like , young men

34:41

and women have are , like

34:44

, different

34:46

in many ways . You know , and

34:48

sometimes I think that , like

34:51

young men my age maybe and this

34:53

is not to say that you know like , literally

34:55

, life is way , way harder for all women

34:58

. But I just think that there are certain experiences

35:00

that young women have that young men will don't

35:03

understand , and

35:05

that's just because how can they ? Because you're

35:07

a man feeling safe walking down

35:09

the street at night , young men , you

35:12

would never understand what it's like to be a young

35:14

woman and feel like you can't walk home

35:16

from , um , I don't know

35:18

, a night out with your , your , you know your girlfriends

35:20

, because you , you feel like something

35:23

you might be attacked or , um

35:25

, something like that , uh , spaces

35:28

that women can't enter . You know all this

35:30

stuff with the garrett club . I don't know

35:32

if you saw that in the news which is like a men's

35:35

only club in london and

35:37

it seems so um

35:40

old . It seems so old-fashioned and

35:42

kind of archaic that there's still spaces where

35:44

women are just absolutely not allowed

35:46

into because they're women . Um

35:49

women going into the police

35:51

force , and there's

35:54

been quite a lot in the news with like

35:56

kind of more senior female police officers coming

35:58

out and saying that they faced a lot of misogyny

36:01

and harassment . As

36:03

a woman in male dominated spaces

36:05

, that's definitely um something

36:08

that's men don't experience

36:10

as much like harassment . I wouldn't say in

36:12

the in the workforce is definitely

36:15

in the same way that women do yeah

36:17

, I think you're right .

36:19

I think undoubtedly , like unfortunately

36:22

as well , when you're born

36:24

as a boy , as a man , you do have

36:26

a bit of a head start , you do have

36:28

a leg up , which shouldn't be

36:31

the case , but unfortunately it is , and I

36:33

think it's important to realize that , especially

36:35

in like the broader world , but

36:37

even still in countries like the United

36:40

Kingdom and United States , like you mentioned , things

36:42

like harassment and I think

36:44

a lot of men just don't think

36:46

about that kind of stuff like when

36:48

you are walking home at night and

36:50

you don't have to worry as

36:53

much some men still do worry , but

36:55

you don't have to worry as much about being harassed

36:57

or like , oh , is that man walking too

36:59

close to me ? Why is he walking on the same

37:01

side of the road as me ? Like these are genuine

37:04

things that , like people have concerns

37:06

about , women have concerns about , and we

37:08

don't have to do that . We don't

37:10

have to worry about . Oh , if I go into

37:12

work , is my boss going to be weird with me

37:14

? Is he going to flirt with me ? I just

37:17

want to do my job . They

37:19

may seem like little things , but imagine this happening

37:21

to you like every day , like

37:23

over and over and over again

37:26

. Eventually would get to a point where you'd be like what

37:28

the fuck ?

37:29

yeah , I mean even smaller things

37:31

, not just harassment , but like

37:33

the way that , um , boys

37:35

and girls are socialized differently

37:38

, um and this also intersects

37:40

with other things like race , um

37:42

like , for example , you

37:44

know , men , if they're being kind

37:46

of assertive , it's like they're leaders

37:48

and they're you know , uh

37:50

, why those women tend to get called bossy , and

37:53

that's even more so for , like , black

37:55

women , for example , and it's

37:58

just they're when you're young

38:00

and you kind of experience these low

38:02

level things and it's maybe harder

38:04

to call out because it's not outright misogyny

38:07

, like , but you can sense

38:09

it , you know yeah , it's

38:11

like , it's like hypocrisy , like we

38:14

would be considered a healthy masculine

38:16

trait , but if a woman does it , then , it's

38:18

weird , or even like , let's say

38:20

, it's like I feel like we just don't understand what

38:22

masculinity and femininity even is

38:25

like .

38:25

For example , let's say you're gymming right and

38:27

building your physique . That's seen as

38:29

a masculine trait , right by many . But

38:32

women should do the same thing . In my opinion

38:35

. Every woman should keep fit . They

38:37

should , you know , gain muscles

38:39

. They should be healthy , right . So why

38:41

are we just then ascribing

38:44

that to uh to be a masculine

38:46

trait and why do we like , let's say , a girl

38:48

who's got like , uh , you know who's in

38:50

, into bodybuilding and things like that ? We call them a man and we like , kind , let's say , a girl who's got like a you know who's into bodybuilding and things like that ? We call them

38:53

a man and we kind of shame them for it , body shame

38:55

them for it , right . And it's

38:57

like we're really

38:59

not helping ourselves with the labels

39:01

, and maybe it's just . Maybe

39:04

it's to do with a lack of discourse , or maybe

39:06

we just need to go beyond labels , and I don't know what

39:08

the answer is . What do you think ?

39:16

I don't know what the answer is . What do you think ? I don't know what

39:18

the answer is either . It's something I really have been thinking about

39:20

a lot . Just , I think all these conversations about masculinity and femininity it does make

39:22

me think about gender and like the importance that we place

39:24

on our own gender and actually

39:27

ascribing things as as masculine

39:29

or feminine . Maybe it's

39:31

just not that helpful . I don't know

39:33

. I have been thinking about it a lot and I do

39:35

feel a

39:38

bit conflicted because , on the one hand , like

39:40

I really do like being a woman and like I

39:42

you know , like

39:44

I like it , I definitely . But

39:47

then , at the same time , maybe there's

39:49

a case for you know well , it's

39:51

not me renouncing being a woman but like I don't

39:53

need to ascribe everything as either a feminine

39:55

trait or a masculine trait , and

39:58

that might be the way forward

40:00

. There does seem to be some kind

40:02

of I don't know

40:04

like polarization

40:07

at least , like , as you said

40:09

, for example , that there's

40:11

certain masculine traits where , if a woman does it

40:14

, it's considered like unfeminine

40:16

, and maybe we should just

40:18

be going beyond that . It feels a bit outdated

40:20

to be saying that women are too

40:23

masculine for wanting to be muscular

40:25

in the gym and like what does that even mean

40:27

?

40:27

you know , exactly they're just trying to be healthy

40:29

, or like , let's say , for example , expressing

40:32

emotions right , like , let's say , if I'm going through a very

40:34

tough time , like I

40:36

would call that person courageous , I

40:39

won't say that's a feminine thing to do . If

40:41

what is going through a tough time , yeah

40:43

, you know , the studies show that women

40:45

have more emotional support system

40:47

. But I make it . Let's say , I make this

40:49

like I . I

40:52

I live in a society where this is considered as a

40:54

feminine activity . For him to open

40:56

up to me now , him as a man

40:58

is gonna , he's gonna feel reluctant . So

41:00

why are we assigning these good qualities

41:03

to even the good qualities ? I mean to

41:05

femininity and masculinity ? It's just a good

41:07

quality . It takes courage

41:09

to talk about your emotions . When you

41:11

talk about your emotions , you gain more

41:13

clarity and your mental health gets better . Freud

41:16

says unexpressed emotions don't die . But

41:18

when you assign that to femininity , and

41:20

then people shame you all . Like you all , you should be more

41:22

like a man . Now you're doing

41:24

they're very good habits . Now you're

41:26

restricting yourself from , for example , having

41:28

emotional support systems and

41:30

being able to depend on people around you . We're social

41:33

animals . You can't do life alone . You

41:35

need people around you . And if you're like

41:37

oh , now you should be this masculine

41:39

lone wolf , right , it's

41:42

not helping the man or

41:44

the women women , it's helping no one yeah

41:47

, it's really interesting to me .

41:48

I do find find it funny when we

41:50

talk about men as being like unemotional

41:52

, and I think that's definitely not true . We

41:55

just express emotions very differently

41:57

. Like women , maybe they

41:59

have a bigger support system Generally

42:01

speaking , like women tend to , you know

42:03

, go to their friends for support and maybe

42:06

we cry a bit more , a

42:14

bit more , um , but men like it's not that they're not emotional , so like we

42:16

need to be letting men like get their emotions out in a healthy way , because otherwise

42:18

it turns to like anger and and that

42:21

is obviously really it's not

42:23

a good place to be in when you're just like , you

42:25

know , angry because you've got these repressed

42:27

emotions and the lone wolf

42:29

thing . I mean that does

42:31

not help anyone going out and being independent

42:33

. We all need to have friends , we need support systems

42:36

. We need , you know , like our family

42:38

, if we're close to family , to be able to speak to them

42:41

. Yeah , it's 100% .

42:43

I learned that the very hard way , because almost

42:46

losing my sister and then moving to

42:48

a different country culture shock . I

42:50

really didn't want to show anyone that

42:52

I was feeling vulnerable and

42:54

I was feeling lonely and I didn't

42:57

like my new life here , you know , and

42:59

I just bottled it all up and I was angry

43:01

, like my escapism

43:04

would be video games , I broke more than eight controllers

43:06

and all of these things . And if

43:08

, for example , like , thank

43:11

God , because my dad was , you

43:13

know , I could have these emotional conversation

43:15

with him . But if he was like , stop

43:17

, stop complaining , what have you got

43:19

to complain about ? Don't be , don't be a woman Like

43:22

, don't , don't talk about your feelings and don't get

43:24

all like , oh , I've got depression

43:26

and oh , you're struggling mentally . If

43:32

he said those things God forbid I would be still in a very dark place

43:34

. But I had a good outlet . Well , I had good friends where I could just open

43:36

up to them , cry to them that you know the

43:38

trauma from my past are following me . I

43:41

don't know what I'm doing . I

43:43

need help . That's when my life

43:45

started to change and I think that's a very courageous

43:47

thing to do , because it's the harder thing to

43:49

do . But if we just assign that to

43:51

masculinity and femininity , then it

43:53

just people just get lost in the . It's

43:56

like . It's , like my dad says , a beautiful thing . It's

43:58

like people are too concerned with , like , having

44:01

labels and , like you

44:03

know , they're too afraid of like these labels , like

44:06

or like . For example , some men are like oh

44:08

, I don't want to be , you know , I don't want to be called

44:10

a feminist . My dad said it's okay , you don't

44:12

have to call yourself a feminist , but

44:14

act like one . Be respectful to women . You don't

44:16

have to do anything like that , just be respectful

44:18

to women . That's the most important thing be

44:21

a kind human being . We don't need

44:23

labels , we just need to be kind human beings

44:25

. And I think in this world of polarization

44:27

, conservatives , labels and right

44:30

wing , left wing and it's just like this

44:32

culture wars , I think it's just it's

44:34

more damaging than it is useful . But

44:36

then it's a bit of a double-edged sword , because we also

44:38

need labels to uh

44:42

, understand the world and make

44:44

sense of the what we're experiencing

44:46

in the world . So I don't know

44:48

how we then deal with that , because at the same time

44:50

one can say that how can you discuss

44:52

such issues if you don't have labels ?

44:56

I think as an individual I don't care

44:58

about labels , but when you're talking

45:00

in a broader sense , you kind of have to use them

45:03

, like I wouldn't

45:05

care for someone to ascribe

45:07

me as a feminist or not as a feminist

45:09

, ascribe

45:12

me as a feminist or not as a feminist , like it doesn't bother me in the

45:14

slightest because I know internally what my opinions are and

45:16

how I feel about things . Whether someone thinks I fit in a group

45:19

or don't fit in a group , it

45:21

doesn't bother me at all . But then

45:23

when the whole world , or majority of

45:25

the world , understands something

45:27

, as this one term .

45:30

You have to use that term to

45:32

communicate with them in the correct

45:34

way , I think yeah

45:37

, I think the problem is like , as

45:40

we said , these labels

45:42

tend to become really broad and then sometimes

45:45

it's difficult to know . Like feminism

45:47

, I mean , encompasses so many different things

45:49

, um , like intersectional

45:52

feminism , and people talk about like

45:54

first wave , second wave , third wave feminism

45:57

, and you know , people's

45:59

idea of what feminism is changes

46:02

a lot . But you know , if somebody

46:04

said to me I don't call myself a feminist

46:06

, I would say , well , why

46:08

is that ? You know , I'd want to know what , what is it

46:10

about the , the word feminism that

46:12

makes you so , um , I

46:15

don't know , makes you so like , uh

46:18

, hesitant to use it . And then I think

46:20

if you spoke , then okay , we could work out

46:23

. Maybe you just don't , we're not in the

46:25

same page on what feminism is and in

46:27

that . And then after that I would think maybe

46:29

they would be more willing to use a term

46:31

like that . But I do agree that labels on

46:34

an individual basis

46:36

are not . You know , I don't introduce

46:38

myself as a feminist to people .

46:41

Yeah , and also feminism in America

46:43

is very different to feminism in the UK

46:45

than to feminism in Africa

46:48

and in pakistan . And sometimes

46:50

, what you know what women get wrong

46:52

sometimes , uh , let's say , for example

46:55

, let's say the western feminism

46:57

, right ? They will then impose

46:59

their values and their ideas of freedom and feminism

47:01

onto the feminists of pakistan . You

47:04

know the what women are going through there , and then their

47:06

issues are so different they're

47:08

like no , like you guys are not really understanding

47:11

what where we are in the world , like

47:14

their context , is so different that the

47:16

feminism like that

47:19

you experience in one culture does

47:21

not necessarily apply to another . Am I making

47:23

sense ?

47:23

yeah , definitely yeah , yeah , that's

47:26

the intersectionality , yeah

47:28

yeah , it's so important I

47:30

mean to appreciate the different countries and

47:32

cultures will need

47:34

something different from from . You

47:36

know , feminist activism it's not

47:38

all just one homogenous um

47:40

idea at all yeah

47:43

, how do we tackle

47:45

the growing division ?

47:46

because to me , like at

47:48

least online , it's

47:51

definitely getting worse , like I've . I've

47:53

not seen people online

47:55

be so divided in terms of gender

47:57

as I have right now . How

48:00

how do you prevent that ? If it's not from

48:02

a place of like empathy

48:04

towards each other ?

48:06

because , although

48:08

not everyone is that like radical

48:10

feminist who hates all men , I

48:12

feel like there there is a there

48:15

is a lot of resentment from men towards women

48:17

and from women towards men at the moment

48:19

in society I think

48:21

we need to like get offline

48:23

and off away from these like

48:26

um kind of like

48:28

, as we said , this polarizing content

48:30

, because I feel like all throughout this discussion

48:32

we've been saying that we don't see that many

48:34

people , like we don't talk to that many people

48:36

in our own lives that feel this way , but

48:39

clearly there is some kind of thought and

48:41

people are having these discussions like online

48:43

, or they're consuming content online and

48:46

like that's not

48:48

the real world , you know , but it does impact

48:50

the real world yeah um , and

48:52

I just think we need to be having much more conversations

48:55

, definitely with empathy , like

48:58

we . That needs to be , of course

49:00

, like the driving thing . I don't

49:02

think that you can have a serious , genuine

49:04

conversation where you're interested in like

49:07

speaking to the other person without empathy

49:09

. Otherwise , that seems like a bit of

49:11

a waste of time .

49:12

Yeah , Even to get someone to

49:14

your cause and to fight for what you're

49:17

fighting for . I think the best place to start

49:19

is empathy , like understand

49:21

them , make them feel like heard

49:24

, almost , and like , yeah , I see your

49:26

struggles as well , here are

49:28

my struggles . Let's kind of work together

49:31

to beat this . Instead

49:33

of no , I'm struggling because if you

49:35

and the system that you represent fuck

49:38

you follow me , help me , or

49:40

you're a dickhead , I feel like that just

49:42

doesn't help . Like

49:44

I think it should be like please

49:48

help . If you don't , like , I'll try to do

49:50

it myself . And if we

49:52

believe humans are good and humans

49:54

have empathy , then

49:56

in the most cases , if you speak to someone

49:58

in that way , I feel like they will help

50:01

. Yeah , or the other

50:03

option is just a lot of men are just

50:05

dickheads , which is hopefully not

50:07

the case . I think it is

50:09

a societal thing where people just feel

50:11

like they have to

50:13

beef each other .

50:14

And also maybe , if

50:17

you're cynical , you could say

50:19

the way people are online

50:21

is their more authentic self , whereas

50:23

in real life they filter their

50:25

beliefs because they've you actually know

50:28

who you're talking to , whereas online

50:30

it's just random people having these conversations

50:32

yeah , sometimes I

50:34

do think that , like I don't know

50:36

, there's so many things that people say online

50:39

isn't there that they would never say to your face , and

50:41

I'm like I want I'd rather you say it to my face

50:44

, so I know where you stand you know

50:46

, I think that feeds to the polarization

50:49

as well is that lots of young

50:52

people don't know where each other stands

50:54

because nobody's saying

50:56

anything out in the open . It's all online

50:58

. And then in that case , how do you know who's what

51:01

people are really thinking , and you can't even

51:03

begin to dismantle beliefs

51:06

that maybe are are not

51:08

rooted in like fact , and or

51:10

you know , how can you help people

51:12

to understand how you feel if you

51:14

don't even know what they're thinking in the first place ?

51:16

yeah , yeah , definitely .

51:18

I think people need to have more conversations

51:21

like you said yeah , I think

51:23

that's a perfect place to end it . Do you want to ? Ask

51:25

your final question mila

51:27

, we always end

51:29

our podcast on the deep note . Um

51:32

, so the deep question is it

51:34

might not be deep for you . Who knows , you might be like this . I

51:37

don't know why am I waffling on it ? Yeah , bro , anyways

51:39

, what would you want written on your

51:41

tombstone ?

51:43

I have not even thought about . What would I want

51:45

written on my tombstone ? That

51:49

is a good question . Do people usually

51:51

know straight away ?

51:52

some people do some do , some have

51:55

the weirdest answers , which is a beautiful

51:58

I don't know , I

52:00

feel under pressure .

52:01

I just , I just want people , you know , I don't

52:04

even , I don't even . I would want people

52:06

to write what they feel . I want to be known

52:08

as like a nice , you know um

52:10

compassionate person , and I

52:13

don't know if I have anything . Particularly sorry

52:15

, that's such a terrible if I got

52:17

to .

52:19

if I got to like , let's say , if I was the one to

52:21

write it to represent

52:23

you all , um , I would

52:25

say empathy and dialogue

52:27

is what will

52:29

unite us . Okay , that was a

52:32

good conclusion .

52:33

Well , I can only hope . Thank you for joining

52:36

us it was great speaking to you .

52:38

All right , Thank you . Oh

52:40

, thank you so much for listening guys . Bye-bye .