0:00

In our civilization, if we're still here

0:02

in 50 years time, millions of people

0:04

will suddenly realize that development is a

0:06

real thing. We're at war on this

0:09

planet. We live in this materialist, empirical,

0:11

scientific worldview, but actually there's so much

0:13

more going on. A lot of what

0:15

we're being asked to do is to

0:17

align with how our planet is unfolding.

0:20

We do have now the technology that

0:22

could allow us essentially to spin up

0:24

a golden age in a short amount

0:26

of time. If we can determine mysticism

0:29

is a bit of a misnomer because

0:31

it actually it isn't a mystery, it's

0:33

a science. Doing the right practice at

0:35

the right moment in time, it's super

0:38

important. You can waste years and years

0:40

and years and the thing is, that

0:42

is so common. If we can build

0:45

a new initiatory system that really takes

0:47

people through those stages and bring to

0:49

the table the best of the world's

0:52

wisdom traditions, this moment in time actually

0:54

holds great promise as well as great

0:56

peril. Hey

1:03

everyone, welcome to the Know Thy Self

1:05

podcast. Today we have the privilege of

1:07

sitting down with a powerful teacher in

1:09

the field of human development. He has

1:11

a degree in contemplative psychology and

1:14

Chinese medicine and a doctoral degree in

1:17

clinical psychology as well. He spent several

1:19

years as a Buddhist monk. This conversation,

1:21

the goal I feel is going to

1:23

be providing this whole tribe

1:26

that we're building here with a

1:28

comprehensive framework and overview for

1:30

the path of human self-development as

1:32

well as planetary development towards

1:35

self-actualization and realization. The

1:37

need for an integral approach and an overview

1:40

of it all as well and much, much

1:42

more. Dr. John Churchill, thanks for being here.

1:44

Andre, thank you for welcoming me. Yeah,

1:46

my honor. So excited to dive in

1:48

deep. I would love to start

1:51

a little bit more wide and then go kind

1:53

of into the microcosm of the human journey. But

1:55

before we do, we were speaking

1:57

yesterday on the phone a little bit about this.

2:01

this perception that Earth is

2:03

its own being on its own developmental

2:06

journey, much like we are. So

2:09

when you look at planet Earth

2:11

and what's happening right now currently

2:13

within humanity, what's

2:15

some powerful important context

2:19

and a framework for where we're currently

2:21

at on that developmental journey? Well,

2:23

one of the things we have to ask ourselves is what

2:25

time is it? And

2:27

clearly it's not in 2024. Right?

2:31

So our planetary

2:33

logos, the intelligence that is our

2:36

planet is

2:39

also on a journey. And just like

2:41

we go through cycles, just

2:44

like we've gone through childhood

2:46

and adolescence, like she

2:49

is also unfolding.

2:52

And so

2:55

having a perspective of sacred

2:57

world and appreciating that

2:59

we and our spiritual journey as individuals

3:01

and as a species is

3:03

an integral part of her process. All

3:08

right? So we

3:10

don't separate actually what we need to do from what's

3:12

happening for her. And so we are

3:14

quite clearly going through a

3:16

quickening process, right? This

3:19

part of much larger cosmic cycles. This

3:23

is kind of taught about in the team is

3:26

kind of taught about in the teachings related to

3:28

the wheel of time, which we see in nearly

3:30

every culture on this planet. And

3:33

of course, there are these

3:35

larger cycles and during

3:37

these larger cycles, certain capacities are

3:39

built up and then we kind

3:41

of culminate in a transition phase.

3:43

And we're in one of

3:45

those transition phases right now, like a 24,000 year and

3:47

12,000 year cycle. So

3:53

a lot of what we're

3:55

being asked to do is to

3:57

align with how our planet is

3:59

unfolding. And according

4:01

to the teachings of the Wheel of

4:03

Time is often we don't do that

4:06

and then things get reset

4:08

and we have to kind of start all over

4:10

again. So

4:13

there is all of us

4:17

sense this imperative and this sense

4:20

of urgency because she

4:22

is wanting to blossom. And

4:25

we really need to align with that process and understand

4:27

what it asks us. Like

4:30

you said, the planet. As

4:33

it goes through its own cycles like

4:35

we do in our own biological body,

4:37

for example, are given opportunities to transmute

4:40

and phase shift into that

4:42

next level of being, next

4:44

potential possibility. And

4:47

yet, so many of us

4:49

really do feel the quickening process that we are

4:51

in. That we are in a time that is

4:53

unlike any other. That there

4:55

is so much possibility for

4:57

catastrophic dystopia on one hand but also

4:59

so much beauty and light on the

5:01

other. If we harness

5:03

the opportunity and realize the blessing that it is

5:06

and not have it turn into a curse. The

5:09

issue largely is that

5:12

everything that we are doing in the world is

5:14

infused with the consciousness in which we are doing it.

5:17

And so the tools that we are engaging with, the

5:19

technology that is advancing, all these amazing things that aren't

5:21

inherently good or bad in and of themselves are

5:24

being infused with a traumatized

5:26

species. That's right. Yeah,

5:32

so the perspective of the Wheel of

5:34

Time and the Buddhist tradition has,

5:37

Buddhism is a vast tradition but it's

5:39

kind of apex teaching is called the

5:41

Wheel of Time, the Kalachakra. And

5:44

there's both a kind of

5:46

Indo-Tibetan Kalachakra but there also is a

5:48

planetary Kalachakra. And

5:51

really what we are talking about, when

5:55

we talk about the Wheel of Time are the

5:57

Process of... Multi

6:00

generational trauma, so that's what each

6:02

of us part of our work

6:04

as we're with were all cleaning

6:06

up right and integrating the past.

6:09

So we had that individually. But

6:11

then we have multi civilizational trauma

6:14

and of course that's just like

6:16

an individual who goes to therapy

6:18

who doesn't realize perhaps the hatch

6:20

homers in the past one of

6:22

the challenges we're in a civilization

6:24

the doesn't really realize that there

6:27

were perhaps previous civilizations and the

6:29

we reached a point similar to

6:31

this. and then. Things. Didn't

6:33

work out so well. So we

6:35

have this cumulative effect of trauma

6:38

related to particularly to this transition.

6:41

That. We're facing right now so we

6:43

have individual the wheel of months.

6:45

You know of individual trauma so

6:48

to speak. The wheel the of

6:50

like generational, civilizational on and and

6:52

planetary. I'm. So

6:54

a lot of what we're having

6:57

to do is digest the momentum

6:59

of the past. My

7:01

a Supertanker. If. You

7:04

put a supertanker neutral. It.

7:06

Doesn't Stop. right?

7:09

So. This. Is

7:11

what we find as even if we put it

7:13

in neutral even if we get that we'll to

7:15

it's not enough we going to have to. Reverse

7:18

the wheel. The good

7:20

news is we have. The.

7:23

Cytotech and The Out attack.

7:25

So. At the moment when

7:27

the wheel needs to be reversed. We

7:31

do have now the technology that can

7:33

allow us to sent it to spin

7:35

up a golden age. In

7:38

a short amount of time. If

7:41

the yeah, if the dharma gets

7:43

to me the Ai so to

7:45

speak, right? If if see what

7:47

we call the fourth turning of

7:50

Adama, the reiteration of the planetary

7:52

Dahmer, this moment in time is

7:54

it can meet the fourth industrial

7:56

Revolution on an equal. In.

8:00

As as an equal partner at the table.

8:03

Because across our civilization has thrown

8:05

away our interiors. for

8:07

at least a couple thousand years. But

8:09

if we can value the interior and

8:11

bring to the table. The. Best

8:14

of the world's wisdom traditions.

8:18

This moment in time as she holds

8:20

great promise as as well as great

8:22

peril. Yeah, I really

8:24

love the understanding that we're kind

8:26

of in this collective amnesia and

8:28

innocence in under the conventional view.

8:31

Have like twelve thousand years civilization but

8:34

like these larger cycles that happened within

8:36

larger cycles with his him as a

8:38

son with and planetary celestial bodies and

8:41

invites ah. Yeah. And

8:43

important flexes to where we're currently and

8:45

the opportunity of civilization and you know

8:47

that that reflects in There is so

8:49

important that we have an opportunity here

8:51

that we have trauma about because we

8:53

sailed made times exactly and of course

8:55

without a lodger. So

8:58

the personality vehicle only lives a

9:00

lifetime. Bright. And a maybe

9:02

we'll be lucky. Maybe you know we sitting

9:04

here two hundred years' time will be like

9:07

bro right? But even then it's. It's

9:09

still less time, but the So vehicle

9:11

or what's called Bliss body in the

9:14

Arab. Buddhist. Tradition. It

9:17

it. Has a a multi

9:19

lifetime narrative. So

9:21

if. You.

9:24

Strength. In. The

9:26

cultural story? What is possible?

9:29

It's very difficult for people to

9:31

awaken. To so even

9:34

even through the narrative My because

9:36

the soul has story and developmentally

9:38

what we find as part of

9:40

what supports awakening the sell his

9:42

awakening to that much longer story.

9:44

So if you if you flip

9:47

that and keep it within a

9:49

you know and twelve thousand year

9:51

history. Is

9:53

one of the ways of the soul.

9:55

Stays kind of a straightjacket. Through

9:58

Executive. Yeah, For

10:00

that prosecutors and that slumber as

10:02

these deeply embedded beliefs and metro

10:05

center with and culture that keep

10:07

I stuck within in a kind

10:09

of blind blindsided to a grander

10:11

her eyes And it was possible

10:13

within the human system and planetary

10:15

system. And. I've

10:18

heard you share about have police or

10:20

psychoactive The leafs the psychoactive Yeah out

10:22

what I mean. The first thing is

10:24

we have a massive. Enchantment

10:27

Of Disenchantment. Massive.

10:29

Which means that you know our

10:31

our listeners and and viewers right

10:34

now while they're viewing a listening

10:36

us sleep This is idea that

10:38

you and I aren't actually. Connecting.

10:41

To the manage adequately that with

10:43

that a with we live in

10:45

this kind of materialist, empirical, a

10:48

scientific positivist worldview. but actually. The

10:51

so much more going on,

10:53

right? And I'm that enchantment

10:56

has kept us sleep. For.

11:01

Thousands of years. That. And

11:03

sentiment of disenchantment in the process of

11:05

awakening from that slumber like whoop. Talking

11:07

to their the opportunity here now new

11:10

term I believe what Martin Luther King

11:12

said. Those who love peace need to

11:14

learn how to organize themselves as much

11:16

as those who love or that's right,

11:18

exactly. And as the process of. You.

11:21

Know assembling the rainbow warriors with I

11:24

suppose that's right as up the mess.

11:27

You. Know one thing was the mess of

11:29

the hero's journey and mean a we

11:31

can talk about that but what's happening

11:33

But we see. What we've seen in

11:35

literature, particularly in the last fifty years,

11:37

is how you see the movies, how

11:39

it's no longer there. The. Single

11:42

Hero. Is. Like multiple

11:44

heroes coming together. That's

11:47

a different mystic story like

11:49

that. the group hero, right?

11:51

And the group. The.

11:53

The Calling of the Dom Army.

11:56

And the you know what it's gonna take

11:58

to to organize that. I'm. A

12:01

college shocker itself is actually a

12:03

military tundra I in order so

12:05

color, truck or time we'll in

12:07

order to to make a transition

12:09

from one. Time to

12:11

another time that is Adama

12:14

Warrior Operation. Or. He

12:16

takes liked it. take so we are. You know

12:18

where we're at war on this planet? to be

12:21

naive to think that what we see on the

12:23

Tv screen is happening. To. Other people.

12:26

I'd So I'm the

12:28

time for. Cooling.

12:31

And gathering the doll army so to

12:33

speak and working out how we're going

12:35

to organize and such a way that

12:37

we can and should be effective but

12:39

as part of a challenge you will

12:41

get into this developmentally is that in

12:43

order to organize you gotta have hierarchical

12:45

structures and to do that you have

12:47

to the sense of like development. By.

12:50

Otherwise or you have as a flat

12:53

land army with no organization which is

12:55

kind of what we've had for the

12:57

last forty years developmentally in the west.

13:00

Yeah. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts

13:02

on. In. The ass realisation

13:04

process of that actually happening. It's

13:06

he does. Yeah, this kind of

13:08

domination hierarchical structure that were so

13:10

accustomed to especially mean as as

13:12

all across the globe and there

13:14

does need to be that enlightened

13:16

leadership. But there also needs to

13:18

be an invitation for sitting around

13:20

circle to I'm with those leaders

13:22

and. I've. Ah

13:24

yeah just felt so deeply. That is

13:26

not a lack of brilliant minds who

13:29

who have done the work and are

13:31

in a living a purpose driven life

13:33

but the organization of those to peaked

13:35

cream structures and systems and actually make

13:37

that a clickable know on the wide

13:39

scale. Yes yeah that's the I think

13:41

that is the big challenge that with

13:43

that the will be facing in the

13:45

next ten years because the truth is

13:48

that be enough the Armies of Darkness

13:50

for want of a better words. Have

13:54

no problem getting highly organized. And.

13:56

hierarchy to structured in such a way that they can app

13:59

that they can be effect And

14:02

one of the challenges in the

14:04

kind of progressive

14:06

or spiritual sacred is that the sensitivity,

14:13

you know, we've gone through a necessary

14:15

process of recognizing these dominator

14:17

hierarchies, and

14:19

developmentally making sure that we

14:22

integrate perspectives that have been

14:24

lost, that haven't been invited to

14:26

the table, so to speak, and

14:28

hearing all of those voices, making

14:31

sure that they're heard. But

14:34

the truth is, is that the human psyche unfolds

14:37

holocically, which

14:40

means that any effective organization

14:43

also needs to mirror that.

14:45

Now, of course, that could be

14:47

decentralized as well, but understanding the

14:49

deep structure that the human psyche

14:52

unfolds developmentally, and that have it

14:54

in building organizations that reflect that,

14:56

right, so that we can be effective is, I

14:58

think that's the next phase.

15:01

I'm really looking forward soon,

15:04

in the later parts of this podcast, to

15:06

dive into the journey

15:09

on an individual level, going from personality to

15:11

soul, because as we awaken to our own

15:14

Dharma and our own true nature, that becomes

15:16

the unique puzzle piece that can't be fulfilled

15:18

otherwise. Like we

15:20

have unique fingerprints, or a

15:22

unique contributor to this process.

15:25

And, you know, I think as much as what

15:28

you're doing in your work, and what I try

15:30

to do with this podcast is almost like for

15:32

me, this is kind of a big part of

15:34

my Dharma, and being like a bat signal for

15:36

this information, for these conversations, for people to find

15:38

resonance with these awakenings

15:41

and these insights. And

15:44

then, you know, somebody who's maybe more systems

15:46

focused, it plays a different role in organizing

15:48

different things. And, you

15:50

know, it's just a really important, I

15:53

think, thing to realize, because that's what

15:55

we have most control over is our

15:58

own individual awakening process to see. how

16:00

we're a part of the

16:02

whole pie coming together. Well, part

16:05

of technically,

16:10

as we awaken to soul, we're

16:13

also awakening to the Anamamundi. So

16:16

soul being a developmental

16:21

stage midway right in the

16:23

sweet spot between complete

16:25

openness and complete form. So

16:28

the sweet spot is right in the middle, the

16:31

middle way, so to speak, right between

16:34

the higher centers and the lowest

16:36

centers right in the middle. And

16:40

that on a planetary level provides

16:47

the planet's capacity to integrate

16:51

and create magic,

16:54

to create synchronicity. So

16:57

as you're awakening to soul, you're

16:59

beginning to awaken to a participation

17:01

with a larger intelligence who

17:04

is also wanting you, me,

17:07

all of us to awaken to that. When

17:10

you do that, you begin to engage

17:12

synchronicity in sacred world and

17:15

the beauty of the

17:18

intelligence of a planet is

17:20

she can be doing that

17:22

for everybody simultaneously. And

17:24

that's when you begin to see like

17:26

the murmuring of a flock of starlings,

17:30

we can begin to see that with as

17:32

those people, as people are awakening, and they

17:34

become parts of kind of

17:36

pods or soul clans, whatever, want

17:38

of a better word. But

17:40

the soul is a group

17:43

entity, so to speak. I

17:45

mean, it's important to say there are levels

17:48

of development above that, but let's, we're just

17:50

focusing on getting humanity there for now. You

17:52

know what I mean? So each one

17:54

of us, when we awaken to our soul,

17:57

we awaken to our sacred design and we

17:59

also. awaken to how that fits

18:01

into sacred world. And

18:04

as you're right, each of us has

18:06

an integral, like that, you know, you

18:08

and I and everybody who's listening, we

18:10

are all unique and

18:13

as we are, as we awaken, we hold

18:15

a key for somebody

18:17

else, right? Like we can't do

18:19

this alone. It's like one

18:21

of those scenes in the Avengers where

18:23

everybody has to do their thing at

18:25

the same time in completely different dimensions.

18:29

But if we do that, the magic,

18:31

you know, planetary magic can happen. We

18:34

can, I really believe we can reverse

18:37

this wheel that, um, that we see,

18:39

we see where it's headed. Yeah.

18:42

It's like the Avengers of consciousness. Like,

18:44

like to call this, this tribe that's

18:46

building here, like the Asenders, the Asenders,

18:49

uh-huh. Asenders unite. Um,

18:54

yeah, I'm really fascinated with a phenomenon

18:56

that is emergence. And

18:59

seeing the intelligence that comes together when those, the

19:01

individual parts come like a shawl of fish or

19:03

a flock of birds that have this intelligence that

19:06

moves together, um, that

19:08

really fascinates me because we lost touch

19:11

with that to such a massive degree. Yeah.

19:14

So that, that, um, that

19:17

intuitive intelligence, which is what

19:19

the Buddhists call direct non-conceptual

19:22

valid cognition. Direct non-conceptual valid

19:24

cognition. So what that means

19:26

is direct, like it's

19:28

immediate non-conceptual. Like you're

19:30

not, that you're not noodling over it.

19:33

Valid meaning you're right on cognition, meaning

19:35

a way of, a way of knowing.

19:38

So that way of

19:41

knowing we call it intuition, but

19:44

the challenge with that is there's kind of a gut

19:46

into, we're not talking about gut intuition. We're talking about,

19:48

uh, a form

19:50

of intuition that's synchronized with

19:52

the planet, right? With the plan. With

19:55

the unfolding of something larger than our own

19:58

personal. But

20:03

that that intelligence

20:06

that soul intelligence it operates

20:08

through synchronicity so

20:10

operates through emergence. However

20:13

the there are some prior

20:16

stages of development necessary to bring

20:19

that online in effective way because.

20:22

Let's take music as an example I

20:25

can see that you're a musician right I'm not

20:28

but if you gave me guitar or give me

20:30

piano I could play chopsticks. I

20:33

could improvise right but that improvisation is

20:35

not going to look like. What

20:37

you look how you when you play what it

20:39

sounds like when you improvise on a guitar or

20:42

a piano. So the

20:46

soul with its emergent intuitive

20:49

intelligence it needs abstract

20:51

knowledge. Which

20:54

is why in the great mystery schools

20:57

there was a significant part of learning

21:00

the spiritual science. Now

21:03

everybody here is actually learning some kind

21:05

of science in whatever body of knowledge

21:07

that your work is in so if

21:09

you're an advertising. If you're in

21:11

you know if you're in physics if you're mathematics

21:13

whatever body of work you

21:16

are abstractly like engaged in. Which

21:19

is why. Our

21:22

civilization has a certain level of education that

21:24

we that is a new thing. So

21:27

when you bring online the intuitive

21:30

capacity having had let's say

21:32

a college education. Then

21:34

the soul is able to use that

21:36

abstract knowledge in a

21:38

way of improvising and allowing emergence

21:40

to happen. Right so emergence

21:43

and kind of direct knowing

21:46

like playing jazz jazz

21:48

might sound like it's been made up on the spot.

21:51

But the but the musicians what

21:54

we know they didn't just start with that right they

21:56

started with their scales to get

21:59

there so. So we're going to go into

22:01

what are the, metaphorically, what are the scales

22:03

that we need to learn internally to

22:05

be able to awaken to that part. Before

22:08

we do, do you want to touch further on what

22:10

the fourth turning is? Yeah, that's a great idea. Thanks.

22:14

Yeah. You should

22:16

podcast. I'll think about it. The

22:21

fourth turning synchronistically means a number of things.

22:25

So we could say, well,

22:27

what's the fourth dimension? Time,

22:33

right? So the

22:36

first thing is that the fourth

22:39

turning is

22:41

a teaching that opens up the nature of time. So

22:45

let's look like, so time is a really

22:47

important part of it. So let's say sacred,

22:49

sacred time. What

22:51

time do we live in? Like the

22:53

calendar. Like if you change everything and you

22:55

don't change the calendar, that

22:57

is the context that everything is happening

23:00

inside of. And whoever controls that context

23:02

is controlling the dream spell, right? The

23:04

controlling the enchantment that we all are

23:06

living within. And none of us

23:08

question, why are we still living within this

23:10

calendar? So the fourth turning, the

23:12

first thing is, it's related

23:14

to the nature of time. The

23:18

second thing we could say, like is

23:21

in terms developmentally, it's about bringing

23:23

humanity from the third chakra, so

23:25

to speak, to the fourth chakra.

23:28

And the thing about the heart

23:31

center is it's actually, and

23:34

I think this is

23:36

what Dr. Gilbert

23:38

was referring to with ascending

23:41

and descending, is actually the

23:43

human psyche is like a seed,

23:45

it's holographic and it flowers up

23:48

and it roots down. But

23:50

the center, the central organizing principle is the

23:53

heart. So the heart

23:55

creates the morphogenic field that integrates the

23:57

highest and the lowest. Once

24:00

you actually get to the heart center, the

24:03

drive mechanisms that then unfold from the

24:05

journey from there on are

24:07

completely different drive mechanisms. Now

24:10

a lot of spiritual practitioners can

24:12

practice from the mind,

24:15

and Sri Aurobindo, who you probably heard

24:17

about, made a strong emphasis about this,

24:19

that the soul or the psychic being

24:21

needs to be the disciple. So

24:24

the fourth turning is also about awakening

24:26

the soul. So

24:28

in the old Theosophical teachings, the fourth

24:30

plane of seven, so

24:33

the heart plane of our planetary system

24:35

is called buddhi, or the Christ plane,

24:37

or the plane of direct, valid, non-conceptual

24:40

cognition. So the

24:42

fourth turning is also a developmental turning

24:45

of bringing people developmentally to a

24:47

whole new tier of development from

24:50

which the practice can unfold. We

24:53

call that also the tier of the bodhisattva. So

24:57

it's a new developmental tier. If

25:00

we also use the language of my

25:03

friend Ken Wilber, whose work you're

25:05

aware of, the fourth turning

25:07

is also referring to the recognition

25:10

of the four dimensions, the four

25:12

quadrants, that actually

25:14

the path is a mandala.

25:18

The fourth turning is the recognition

25:20

that our planetary system is

25:23

a whole, and

25:25

that our interiors and our

25:27

exteriors and our cultural

25:29

interiors, we call that culture, and

25:31

our cultural systems are

25:34

part of a complete whole. And

25:36

so it's an understanding that

25:39

the spiritual journey isn't just a personal

25:41

journey. It's also

25:43

a chemical journey. It's a

25:45

cultural journey, and it's a journey to

25:48

essentially, if we want to

25:50

survive, to get to a class

25:52

one civilization, integrated planet. So

25:55

a fourth turning is referring to the fact that

25:58

it's a shift. in energy,

26:00

it's a shift developmentally, it's

26:03

a shift in the appreciation of time, it's

26:06

a shift in an

26:10

appreciation of those

26:13

four different dimensions, that

26:15

integral perspective, then

26:18

within Buddhism itself. So

26:20

a little bit about Buddhism. In my mind, Buddhism

26:25

is the approach to the sacred

26:28

that's based on medicine,

26:33

based on the

26:36

foundation of the Buddhist teaching was the Four

26:39

Noble Truths, you probably heard that. But

26:41

what most people don't know is the Four Noble Truths

26:44

are just simply the analysis that

26:46

an Ayurvedic doctor would make. So

26:50

essentially, the Four Noble Truths, well

26:52

basically it's like there is

26:55

disease, dukkha, dukkha, dis-ease,

26:58

or this disease is caused by multi-generational

27:01

trauma, there

27:04

is a way to reverse the

27:06

wheel, and that is the path. That

27:09

approach is,

27:12

Buddhism is essentially sacred

27:16

secularism, sacred humanism. It's

27:19

approaching the teaching using

27:21

the sciences. So

27:25

in 200 years time, I don't think we'll have the

27:27

term Buddhism anymore. Alpha

27:30

Tambi, who is this great British historian

27:33

of civilization, said that probably the greatest

27:35

event to happen in the 20th century

27:38

was the Dharma coming to the west.

27:41

Now this is like some white pipe

27:44

smoking English dude wearing a tie. So

27:47

why was he saying that? Well

27:49

as you're saying, because actually this

27:51

technology and how it approaches the

27:53

sacred, which is kind of objectively

27:55

and really understanding as a science

27:57

of goodness, truth, and beauty, whenever

28:00

it goes to a civilization, it radically

28:03

transforms that civilization. Buddhism

28:06

itself has three turnings.

28:10

The first turning

28:12

from the perspective

28:14

of a planetary tradition, so

28:17

the lineage that I've tapped into since I

28:19

was a kid, is a Buddhist

28:22

planetary lineage, so

28:24

to speak. What Buddhism will

28:26

be like in 500,000 years time. So

28:30

this first turning of the wheel,

28:32

traditionally it's called the Hinayana, means

28:34

lesser, Yana means vehicle. And

28:37

essentially that is the focus on

28:39

understanding your own personal trauma, your

28:43

own history, and taking

28:45

responsibility for yourself as an

28:47

individual to individuate,

28:51

to clean up what needs to be cleaned up, so

28:55

that you're no longer caught in

28:57

the cycle of reactivity. And we

28:59

all know what that's like. And

29:02

in that frame, the term

29:04

nirvana, which referred to this first

29:07

turning, means, nirvana

29:09

means cessation. Cessation of what?

29:12

Cessation of reactive trauma. So

29:16

all of us who are

29:19

part of this awakening process, understand that

29:21

there's a cleaning up dimension to

29:23

the path. So

29:25

that involves deep emotional

29:28

insight and processing and

29:30

cleaning up. So

29:33

that's the first turning. And

29:35

of course you can unpack the whole

29:37

path through the perspective of your own

29:39

individual, cleaning up your own individual stuff,

29:42

so you're completely free of it all.

29:45

The second turning happened around the

29:48

same time in the common era,

29:50

when we saw the teachings

29:52

of Christianity arise. So

29:56

on a planetary level, it's

29:58

a similar recognition. recognition that

30:01

suddenly love and relationship

30:05

and the we is an

30:07

important part of the spiritual

30:09

journey, right the emphasis on on on

30:12

Charity of generosity on service

30:15

and an appreciation that we're all

30:17

deeply interconnected So no

30:19

matter how free I am How can

30:21

I be free if we're thinking our

30:23

brothers and sisters starving the other side

30:25

of the world or being or having

30:27

bombs Dropped on them, right? You can't

30:30

so that Second turning

30:33

or the Maha Yana is

30:35

the universal vehicle Now

30:38

this universal vehicle within the tradition

30:40

is understood to be taught in

30:43

many different solar systems in many

30:45

different galaxies meaning if

30:48

your motivation Towards understanding

30:50

the sacred is that you want to

30:52

improve the lives of other beings improve

30:55

their psychology and their cultural environment

30:57

and their physical health and the

30:59

systems they live in that is

31:02

the Maha Yana, right? So

31:04

in that sense, it's a very

31:06

big umbrella for a spiritual

31:08

path the

31:11

the Exemplar

31:13

in the Hinayana in the first turning

31:15

was called the ahat Which

31:18

is like the symbol like the imagine the archetype

31:20

of a monk somebody who's doing

31:22

everything Right and saying

31:24

no, no, no, no to everything and

31:27

just cleaning it all up Maybe

31:29

a little bit rigid no wine, you

31:32

know, no fun. No music Right.

31:35

This is like get get the guy wheel him into emergency

31:38

Nothing like clean it up right

31:40

the second turning the

31:42

emphasis is the bodhisattva so

31:45

bodhi means awakening

31:48

sattva being the awakening being

31:51

So this is the soul and this

31:53

is like the bodhisattva warrior. So she

31:55

he is is committed

31:58

to to build building

32:01

enlightened civilization. That's

32:03

the big game is like, this is the game

32:05

right here. So

32:08

once you have that kind of motivation and

32:10

you've kind of done enough individual work and

32:13

you begin to develop your

32:15

heroic altruism, then

32:18

the third turning was like, okay,

32:21

now we can start using special

32:23

techniques, alchemical techniques to speed that

32:25

process up. Right,

32:27

so these are, you know, in the East,

32:29

these are very similar to the alchemical teachings

32:31

used by the Rosicrucians. In

32:34

fact, they all come from a similar

32:37

route, so to speak, but

32:39

these are the teachings that work with the

32:41

speeding up the transformation of the subtle body,

32:44

opening up access to other realms, opening

32:48

up access to cities, to powers,

32:51

but none of that should happen until

32:53

you have a right motivation and like

32:56

taking care of enough of your personal

32:59

stuff. Okay, fourth

33:01

turning, sorry. Fourth turning

33:04

essentially is well, what happens when all of

33:06

that tech meets

33:09

a civilization that has a vast

33:12

amount of tech to address those

33:14

three previous turnings? Meaning we

33:17

have in the West a deep understanding

33:19

of trauma. Right, we

33:21

have a deep understanding

33:23

of, you know, of

33:26

culture and we have a

33:28

deep understanding of science. So

33:31

when those two meet, when the

33:34

psychotech of the East, so to

33:36

speak, of the Dharma, or

33:38

even the Rosicrucians, the psychotech

33:40

of the world's wisdom traditions finally

33:43

gets to meet this

33:45

culture, then you get

33:47

a fourth turning, which

33:50

is, as I said, the possibility for the

33:52

reversal of the wheel and the

33:55

possibility for a whole new time, if

33:58

we make use of it. So

34:00

that's the law. The

34:03

fourth turning is a big deal, so to speak. We

34:07

were just speaking to the opportunity now

34:09

is that that's present,

34:11

like the transition point is here,

34:13

it's among us. That's right. And

34:15

the most powerful thing

34:17

that we can do is unveil

34:20

how we are a piece to that puzzle. And

34:24

so, you know, like cultivating the intuitive

34:26

faculties. I think we have such a,

34:28

especially the Western mind has such a

34:31

strong magnetism towards

34:33

the conceptual cognition, like the

34:35

intellect, you know, that scientific

34:37

mind which is very powerful

34:40

and important. But

34:42

we're speaking to a deeper level of intelligence

34:44

that can be awakened, which

34:47

is so more vast and

34:49

isn't bound to just our

34:51

brain power. That's right. Yeah.

34:54

So does it feel true,

34:56

let's start to transition a little bit more to the

34:58

individual journey. Yeah, let's talk about that. Cool. Well,

35:03

let's, you know, really

35:05

what we're talking about is the transition to the heart.

35:07

Mm-hmm. Because

35:10

the thing

35:13

about the, you know, shifting from the

35:15

emphasis of mindfulness to heartfulness, if you

35:18

will, right? That

35:25

the heart, the heart field, so when

35:27

we feel a heart

35:30

in our chest, that's

35:34

like one end of a

35:36

sensory neuron, but

35:38

the other end is actually in the brain. So

35:42

when you're feeling your heart, you're

35:44

actually accessing a particular center in

35:47

the brain. Now,

35:49

what we know from the research is

35:52

that the energy of the

35:54

heart coheres the whole brain.

35:58

So all of the brains,

36:00

centers, all the various systems

36:02

start cohering to

36:05

the central organizing principle. Now

36:09

the intelligence of the, the toroidal field

36:11

of the heart is

36:14

the same kind of archetypal structure

36:16

from photon to a planet to

36:19

a solar system to a galaxy.

36:22

So as we begin to move to

36:25

heart intelligence, we're beginning to move

36:27

to kind of holographic resonant

36:30

model intelligence. Now

36:33

as the heart field gets stronger

36:35

and stronger and stronger, so

36:37

this doesn't happen immediately, it

36:40

coheres the brain more and

36:42

more and more and more. So

36:45

this field, this heart field is

36:47

your motivation to want to be

36:49

of service, expands and expands. And

36:52

it coheres all of

36:54

the various processes of your brain,

36:57

slowly but surely all those cognitive

36:59

processes start to get cohered into

37:01

the structure of the heart.

37:05

Now the heart is in

37:07

coherence with the electromagnetic field

37:09

of the planet. So

37:12

we actually are in information

37:16

coherence with a planetary field. The

37:19

more the heart opens, the

37:22

more the brain begins to

37:24

become cohered by that deep

37:26

holographic structure, the more

37:28

your thought processes begin to

37:30

become more and more systemic.

37:34

So cognitively what we

37:36

would expect as the heart center opens

37:38

up is

37:41

the birth of systemic

37:43

thinking first, then meta-systemic,

37:46

then paradigmatic, then

37:49

cross-paradigmatic, then meta-cross-paradigmatic,

37:53

meaning that the heart has

37:55

an effect on

37:57

cognition. This

38:00

is the bodhisattva path. And

38:02

the reason that this is so important is, it's

38:05

that kind of way of thinking

38:07

and knowing that is

38:09

gonna be able to find the solutions

38:12

for these immense challenges

38:15

that we're facing. Yeah, it's like

38:17

cognitively seeing new colors as you awaken

38:19

the heart. That's right. And

38:22

it's like a veil that pulls

38:24

away. It's a whole new kind

38:26

of intelligence. Access beyond the matrix.

38:29

A whole new kind of intelligence, right?

38:31

And what's interesting is

38:33

you can even do meditations and

38:35

open up and develop

38:37

meditative capacity without doing that.

38:41

And what happens is then

38:43

you don't get this kind

38:45

of holographic synchronization

38:48

with the planet. You're kind

38:50

of, well, let's put it this way.

38:52

The Sith option can happen

38:54

pretty far up. You can

38:57

go up the path of

38:59

meditative development, right? Of personal

39:01

development and take the

39:04

Sith route, like, you

39:07

know, quite a way up. I've

39:09

just always been so enamored

39:12

by the capacity for anything really,

39:14

but especially human beings to truly transform.

39:16

It's like we take an acorn seed

39:18

that looks nothing, resembles nothing like a

39:20

tree. And yet somehow the

39:22

intelligence of the universe, when the proper nutrients

39:25

are provided, this small

39:27

thing turns into this huge,

39:29

magnificent being. And the

39:32

power that's weaving underneath to be able to

39:34

make that happen is in that

39:36

intelligent force, that creative energy that

39:38

we've in between us all is

39:41

so fascinating. And I think

39:43

when I first saw, I believe,

39:45

yeah, Ken Wilber's spectrum of consciousness

39:48

and integral spirituality, the

39:50

kind of color chart of consciousness and

39:52

the levels of consciousness from

39:55

a bird's eye view, you could look at a

39:57

human being on their own developmental journey and see

39:59

them go. from infrared to

40:01

ultraviolet, you know, that correspond and

40:03

correlate to different perspectives and worldviews.

40:06

And that's like, it's like the

40:09

ultimate video game. It's like, we're just,

40:11

it's so exciting once you find a

40:13

framework that really shows you how

40:16

you can wake up and what that, because

40:18

it can be so esoteric and kind of

40:20

this far off thing, but like, it's such

40:22

a real process from point to point. Yeah.

40:24

I'll just pause because I can see you brimming. Well,

40:26

I'm just thinking of my wife, Nicole, and we sit

40:29

around the kitchen table and she's like, God,

40:31

like they don't even know about development.

40:33

Like we don't even teach human

40:36

development in our schools. Right.

40:40

And so then it can sound esoteric, but

40:43

actually as Ken who's

40:45

done this huge amount of research

40:47

in one of his books, Integral Psychology,

40:50

there were charts after charts after

40:52

charts, basically showing, listen, all of

40:54

these can be distilled into a

40:57

developmental structure. And

41:00

once you understand that that developmental structure

41:02

has like a fractal,

41:04

it is based on perspective

41:06

taking. So we could even take the

41:08

journey, so to speak through

41:10

perspectives, if you wanted to, if that was

41:12

interesting. But

41:14

the dynamism of development is

41:17

like, is algorithmic, if you

41:19

will, right? And once you

41:21

appreciate that and understand that and you

41:24

understand the map, suddenly you can

41:26

see the world in terms of colors or

41:29

in terms of perspectives, you

41:31

can understand development

41:33

in terms of like seeing the

41:35

culture wars that are happening and

41:38

why they're happening developmentally. That there are,

41:40

it all makes, it all, it

41:43

helps the bodhisattva, it helps

41:46

her understand the

41:49

classroom that she's in and how

41:51

to help all the beings who are

41:53

in the different class levels, right? It's

41:55

like suddenly waking up at high school

41:57

and realizing that everybody in middle school,

42:00

in elementary school is in a slightly

42:02

different grade. Right. And

42:04

then if you want to help somebody,

42:06

we'll work out what, what

42:08

is their central operating principle

42:10

at that level of development? So it's, you

42:13

can't, you

42:16

can't really awaken, well

42:19

not awaken, you can't stabilize

42:22

and function as soul

42:24

or as a bodhisattva without

42:26

understanding development. It's not

42:28

going to happen. And it's going to be futile to

42:30

try to speak to somebody at like a second or

42:33

third density level with this like seven dimensional kind of

42:35

perspective. You know, it's just like, well, no, you just

42:37

get burnt at the stake. You

42:40

know, typically what we like to say is

42:42

like two stages, one stage above

42:44

can be, you know, can like cause some

42:46

interest. Two stages above allergies.

42:51

Yeah. Would it be,

42:53

would it be useful to kind of make

42:55

a journey through these stages? Yeah, no, I'd

42:57

love to. So, I mean, there's many different

42:59

frameworks of this from spiral dynamics to these

43:02

levels of consciousness that kind of color coordinate

43:04

the developmental process. What I want to do

43:06

is zoom out, take

43:08

a bird's eye view. What are

43:10

all the pieces of the pie of the

43:12

developmental journey as well? Right. And then let's,

43:14

yeah, let's go, go through these different colors

43:17

because as somebody who's, you

43:19

know, maybe more at an egocentric, um,

43:21

eventual level of development, they're going to

43:23

have, even if they

43:25

have like an inner, inner luminous state

43:28

experience, they will correspond and maybe attach

43:30

it to a religious figure or perspective

43:33

in a certain way versus somebody that

43:35

maybe, you know, a

43:37

blue or purple consciousness will, will

43:39

have that and, um, see it

43:41

with more clarity in its true form in a way.

43:44

And so it's just so fascinating

43:46

because every experience that we're walking around

43:48

to, we're seeing it through metaphorically,

43:51

these color tinted glasses that we have on of

43:53

how we see things. That's right. You

43:55

know, as that quote that I love and repeat many

43:57

times from Wayne Dyer, you know, when we changed the

43:59

world. Way we look at things are things

44:01

we look at change and we change the

44:04

way we look at things by changing who

44:06

we are being. For a so let's move

44:08

Lets go of this developmental journey. Shop will

44:10

kind of a good overview as are so

44:13

high. high level view. Is

44:15

let's say this planetary system. Has.

44:18

A number of levels of

44:20

grades or initiations. And

44:23

once you complete those grades and just

44:25

like. Our planet is like. Middle

44:28

school of is less the Red

44:30

sox so even if you like

44:32

well I'm a other top is

44:34

like really were bottom dwellers another

44:36

so that's helpful because. I'm

44:39

you know we don't want to get inflated

44:41

but it's also important that if you you

44:43

know if you are reaching graduation that you

44:45

can have it's important that you recognize that

44:48

you on a sort of for is also

44:50

important that like that that were able to

44:52

find the spaces that those who those graduates

44:54

his knee graduates can actually say hey guys

44:56

it's okay before they leave and never come

44:59

back again yeah speaks yeah for middle school

45:01

as writing process half of the mind if

45:03

I confess I thought free school either Right

45:05

now I can freeze it on earth's core

45:08

game here to. Worker sit out as

45:10

reflection and mirrors of duality. a friend

45:12

as well as less This begin the

45:14

journey and I'm sure we'll cat we've

45:16

so we can look at it also

45:19

which is helpful for prospective taking So.

45:22

Says you think of first person. First

45:25

person perspective is will

45:27

it's an incense. Doesn't.

45:29

Even have first person perspective that kind

45:31

of fused with everything. And

45:34

as a differentiating themselves from

45:36

other they become aware. Of.

45:39

I. I'd self

45:41

reflective capacity and you'll notice that

45:43

when it's child's finally sees himself

45:45

in a mirror. right?

45:49

That. Is a developmental milestones? before

45:51

that, I'm. My. Son Bodie

45:54

when he was like. three

45:56

months ice to sit on my lap and i was

45:58

doing meditation interviews me with sit there and

46:00

just drool and just look at

46:03

the great beyond. I'd be like, yeah,

46:05

you need to meditate like this. But

46:08

six months later when he saw himself in

46:11

the mirror, then he's like, the

46:14

self is there. So first person is really

46:16

the birth of, if

46:19

an adult is operating from that place, that's complete

46:22

narcissism. It's me, me,

46:24

me, me, me, me, me. An

46:26

example of this that might be useful for the listeners too

46:29

is at that pre-conventional stage of

46:31

development. I've heard this example many times where

46:33

you put a ball in between us. One

46:36

has one half of its red, the other half of its

46:38

blue. And like if I'm sitting

46:40

across from like a baby who

46:42

doesn't have that ability to take the role of other,

46:44

if I show him both sides, right, look, it's half

46:47

of his blue, half of its red, if you just

46:49

show him the red side, you say, what color are

46:51

you seeing? Red. What color are they seeing? Red. That's

46:54

right. Yeah, inability to take the

46:56

role of other. No other. That's

46:58

right. First person perspective. And

47:02

so, you know, we

47:05

all begin there. We all begin there,

47:07

right? And then slowly what develops is

47:10

slowly what develops the second person perspective.

47:13

Now in that process, if

47:15

it wasn't, if

47:17

we didn't have a history that we

47:19

have, part of that being

47:22

born would also be born into the magic, into

47:25

magical world. So children

47:27

are still living in this

47:30

kind of magical world, which

47:32

is alive with like magic and

47:34

the trees are alive. And they

47:38

are, they're kind of

47:40

living inside of a fairy tale.

47:44

And as they slowly develop

47:46

second person perspective, this

47:48

is what we call in, in

47:51

cognitive psychology, concrete

47:54

operational thinking. So

47:56

What concrete operations means is, is

47:58

you can finally approach it. Zeroes

48:01

and ones. Black. And.

48:03

White. In. And

48:05

out. So it's a level of

48:08

cognition. The com Funk A can't

48:10

do anything that than that. So

48:12

this is what we would recognize

48:14

his fundamentalists cognition. Right

48:17

like. Are. You. Are

48:19

you in? Are you

48:21

part of the of the in crowd?

48:23

Are you part the out crowd? Right

48:25

arm. And. As we go

48:28

through this, it's important to

48:30

recognize that we'll have. These.

48:34

Operating. System still happening right

48:36

now. So that

48:38

second person perspective a kind

48:40

of matures into the best

48:42

of it is like. The.

48:45

Code. The. Truth. What

48:47

is what is good and

48:49

what is bad for up

48:51

my nation, Right or wrong,

48:54

or my team or my

48:56

religion or wherever. There's this

48:58

like very strong like black

49:00

and white. Way.

49:02

Of thinking and of course is extremely.

49:05

It can be extremely dangerous. And

49:08

if we were to and we

49:10

were discuss like empire on this

49:12

planet, Empire loves to manipulate. Second

49:15

person perspective: Is this this this club

49:17

level of cognition because the still a

49:20

vast amount of people on this planet

49:22

running those programs and they can easily

49:24

be manipulated Because if you really really

49:27

like something and you really don't like

49:29

something, you can manipulate for somebody all

49:31

around the board. And

49:34

who manipulate them. Third, Person

49:36

perspective. Which

49:38

is the birth of objectivity,

49:40

right? So first person perspective.

49:42

John. Second, Perspective: Andrei hims

49:45

Andrey with me or is against

49:47

me. Third person is like. The.

49:50

Something objective over there and maybe you

49:52

and I to ask the agree about.

49:54

That. right? from

49:57

that level of consciousness Was

50:00

birth a whole world. Now

50:05

we see this we've seen this progression

50:07

evolve in the last

50:09

twelve thousand years but the

50:11

cycles obviously repeat themselves in any

50:13

civilization cycle that makes sense like

50:15

we begin and we go first

50:17

second. So this isn't just

50:20

about modernity but third person

50:22

perspective we see in modernity.

50:27

And if

50:31

you look in the history of art in

50:33

the west. Suddenly

50:37

in the Renaissance. The

50:41

art pops a perspective and suddenly

50:43

there's like you're looking into a

50:45

painting and you can see perspective

50:47

in the painting. Right

50:50

dark ages it's just flat and

50:52

then suddenly there's perspective. And

50:56

they're drawing perspective into the painting

50:58

you seeing there in art

51:01

the birth of third person perspective.

51:04

Right of course there are probably

51:06

people before that but the

51:08

thing about the Renaissance is there is enough

51:11

financing that you could begin to see all

51:13

of the artifacts born out of that. Fourth

51:19

person perspective is

51:21

the birth of multicultural

51:27

pluralism. So

51:29

what do we mean by that we mean

51:31

that after

51:34

since the last hundred years and

51:36

particularly since the sixties fourth

51:38

person perspective is the ability to see.

51:42

Third person perspective is lacking

51:44

something significant what's

51:46

it lacking is lacking the perspective of

51:49

the feminine. It's

51:51

lacking the perspective of other cultures

51:53

who do science we've

51:56

done third person perspective for

51:58

a particular science. How about

52:00

Chinese science or

52:02

Ayurvedic science? Right? So

52:06

fourth person perspective is inclusive.

52:10

And it's what we see right

52:12

now in the kind of progressive

52:16

woke movement in

52:18

our culture, in the left wing, which is

52:20

we need to make sure that every single

52:22

voice is heard. And

52:25

of course, that's a

52:28

necessary compensation for 500 years

52:31

or even more of

52:33

this third person kind of

52:36

machinery that we've seen is

52:38

so effective in basically harnessing

52:40

the Industrial Revolution and

52:43

drawing upon monetizing

52:46

and breaking everything down into smaller

52:48

pieces. So

52:50

that's third person perspective, fourth person

52:53

perspective. Now,

52:57

let me

53:00

just say something that we can

53:02

look at these perspectives and say, well, there's one and there's

53:04

1.5 and there's two and there's 2.5 and there's three and

53:06

there's 3.5,

53:08

right? There's

53:11

something that's very important that happens

53:13

just after fourth person perspective. We

53:16

could call that 4.5. We

53:18

could call it integral. But

53:22

essentially, the understanding

53:26

that there is a developmental ladder doesn't

53:29

kick in to 4.5. What

53:33

that means is prior to that, if

53:36

you get the kind of

53:38

traditional, like traditionalists in a

53:40

room with Wall Street executives

53:42

who are running like mainstream

53:44

CNN, like be all you

53:46

can be code, in

53:48

the same room as kind of like

53:50

crunchy progressives, Right?

53:53

Well, Progressives, they're all going to look at

53:55

each other and think that the other person

53:58

is completely mad. To

54:00

be like taken out Rams. It's.

54:04

A The birth of the

54:06

capacity for hierarchical thinking. That

54:10

appreciates all of those. Stages.

54:13

Of development and begins to realize like

54:15

oh I need to go back and

54:17

I need to do some healing because.

54:20

This. The second person perspective when

54:22

I was meant to be like integrating

54:25

like a deep sense of connection with

54:27

others may be. I didn't. Ride

54:30

so. The. Birth

54:32

of like integral cognition. Four Point

54:34

Five is the ability to recognize

54:36

the whole stack. And

54:38

recognize the value of every single

54:41

one of these price stages. It

54:44

really use this in the in the language of

54:46

the Chopra system. Four point five is when you

54:48

like. A damage to the hot

54:50

weather Hot realizes like oh, you know

54:52

what? The solar plexus. And. A

54:54

second chakra and the root chakra

54:56

are all important. Well

54:59

as colors. Oh

55:01

my gosh this colors up as

55:03

well as down since Four Point

55:05

Five is the big the beginning

55:07

of a like of have a

55:10

really grounded appreciation that has gone

55:12

through all of these stages to

55:14

get here and then the recognition

55:16

like Oh My gosh wow. And

55:20

assholes and it can begin to

55:22

see the whole stack and appreciate.

55:26

Development. Before that, it's not

55:28

that you won't appreciate the great

55:30

mistakes, but you can. It's gonna

55:32

throw them out in space. And

55:35

also there's a lot of mixing

55:38

of will be called a pre

55:40

trans fallacy meaning mixing like magical

55:42

thinking. Wins. Like.

55:44

Trans person or technology like

55:46

just because something isn't rational.

55:50

Doesn't mean. That. It's

55:52

sacred. To. Think of an example of that.

55:57

okay yeah i'm Well

56:01

first in terms of altered states right

56:04

there are some altered states where

56:07

it's like a regressive state because you're going

56:09

to go into that state so that you

56:11

can regress back to some childhood

56:14

innocence right and

56:17

feel your feelings and run around take off

56:19

your clothes and be completely free. Okay

56:22

that is a non rational state that

56:24

isn't the same thing as

56:27

the non rational opening up of

56:29

this non conceptual valid cognition. Now

56:33

you could say well both are completely spontaneous

56:35

and this goes back to what I was

56:37

saying earlier well yes one is a jazz

56:39

musician playing and the other one is smashing

56:41

on the keys. Right

56:44

now don't get me wrong I

56:46

like to take my clothes off and run

56:48

around as well right but but to recognize

56:51

that that kind of freedom. Right

56:53

that freedom which is the freedom of the body

56:56

isn't necessarily the same thing as

56:58

the freedom of soul but

57:00

what happened in our culture is like

57:02

we it's very easy for us to

57:04

like merge the two. Yeah right

57:07

and we need both right

57:09

but they're not the same thing right.

57:15

Is that a good example yeah I

57:17

think a lot of what people would

57:19

attribute to being free or freedom is

57:21

like a kind of more immature. Temporary

57:24

access to something that is like

57:27

a feeling of freedom yes within the context

57:30

and confines of a lot of the shit

57:32

you haven't looked at for example where you

57:34

could actually arrive at a stage that sustains

57:36

your freedom. Another

57:38

good example would be psychedelics

57:40

yeah okay psychedelics can open

57:42

up but they can

57:44

open up the ceiling or

57:47

they can open up the basement. Okay

57:50

and so how do you know like

57:52

when you've had this amazing vision and

57:55

some being communicated stuff you know to

57:57

you how do you know that basically

57:59

it was. isn't just your own narcissism

58:02

talking to you about how amazing

58:04

you are. Exactly. Which is very

58:06

real. Yeah, for sure. I mean,

58:08

there's nothing worse than getting stuck

58:10

next to somebody telling you their

58:12

ayahuasca trip, right? So that's

58:16

not to say anything negative about

58:19

psychedelics. They open. Yeah,

58:22

they open the veil. And they open the veil either

58:25

direction, either trance

58:27

or pre, but

58:29

much more confusingly, both

58:32

at the same time. Right?

58:34

And if you don't have

58:37

a developmental understanding, you won't be

58:39

able to purify and distill, which

58:42

is why at a certain point, many of

58:44

the traditions will leave the psychedelic work behind

58:48

in favor of maybe

58:50

a more precise approach. I

58:54

think that that might change as we

58:56

evolve our appreciation of psychedelics, we'll

58:58

be able to take them. I

59:01

mean, the truth is, if the sacred

59:03

academy in the West hadn't been suppressed,

59:05

we'd have had 2000 years of psychedelics.

59:10

And our chemical elixirs

59:13

would be just

59:16

amazingly refined.

59:19

Right now, I think it's like a hammer and a

59:21

chisel. You know what I mean? Yeah, which is

59:24

still a pretty damn magical hammer and

59:26

chisel. But

59:28

just on that note, accessing

59:32

these altered states, like you said, both to the

59:35

trance and pre can open up the veil to

59:37

the basement and the ceiling, which is very powerful.

59:41

And it's useful for

59:43

seeing and having a reference point of what's possible.

59:45

But at the same time, it's like, if there's

59:47

me right here, and the truth

59:49

of who I am is over there, but there's a wall

59:51

in between the psychedelic or altered

59:54

states, moments can be like a trampoline

59:56

to see that. But as you jump

59:58

up, you must come down. and

1:00:01

building the stages of consciousness, like building a

1:00:03

ladder to like, to actually get

1:00:05

there. And once you're there, then you're there. And

1:00:07

you don't need to jump on a trampoline anymore, unless you want to

1:00:09

just for the fun of it. Yeah,

1:00:12

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1:01:16

the episode. Well,

1:01:20

so we were at fourth person perspective. Four and a half,

1:01:22

right. Okay, yes. So

1:01:25

essentially four and a half realizes

1:01:27

development. Four

1:01:31

realizes context, that

1:01:35

everything is socially constructed, right?

1:01:37

Okay, like a good dose of kind

1:01:39

of French postmodernism with a cigarette and

1:01:42

a black coffee, right? That's kind of

1:01:44

four. A

1:01:47

whole new tier of development

1:01:49

opens up a fifth person perspective.

1:01:52

That fifth person perspective, not

1:01:55

only do you appreciate that things

1:01:57

are socially constructed, and

1:02:00

that they are developmentally constructed. The

1:02:02

mind begins to see. So

1:02:05

remember, when we're saying perspectives, we're

1:02:07

not talking about thinking, we're

1:02:10

talking about seeing. Now

1:02:12

that seeing can think, but

1:02:15

it is really a seeing.

1:02:17

It's how many cuts the

1:02:19

diamond has. At

1:02:22

fifth person perspective, the diamond has enough

1:02:24

cuts to see that everything

1:02:27

that we use in terms of

1:02:29

language, all language

1:02:31

is a construction. The

1:02:33

whole thing. Now, what does that mean? It

1:02:36

means that awareness begins

1:02:39

to see through all of

1:02:41

the structures into

1:02:44

the deeper. Interconnected

1:02:47

field. Fifth

1:02:50

person perspective is the beginning of

1:02:52

the soul awareness coming online. Now

1:02:56

to make things more difficult, you

1:02:59

could have a great meditation master

1:03:01

who's at the sixth person perspective,

1:03:04

and he's going for a pilgrimage and he

1:03:06

comes across a kindly goat

1:03:08

herder who's sitting out chilling smoking his

1:03:10

pipe. And

1:03:12

the meditation master could teach this

1:03:14

goat herder who is kind of

1:03:16

just like living in the village and

1:03:19

developmentally not very sophisticated because he's

1:03:21

not, doesn't need to be.

1:03:23

He's not even third person perspective. He's just kind

1:03:25

of smoking his pipe and

1:03:28

the great meditation master can say, okay, I

1:03:30

want you to do this technique. Now,

1:03:35

the goat herder would have never have

1:03:37

came up with that technique himself. It's

1:03:40

unlikely. However, he was

1:03:42

introduced to the technique. So

1:03:44

now we have this interesting thing is that

1:03:47

he's been introduced with a technique, but

1:03:50

with a technology developed

1:03:52

by somebody at sixth person

1:03:54

perspective. He's ingested

1:03:57

this text, this psycho technology and he's running

1:03:59

it. This is where

1:04:01

we see a lot of the confusion because

1:04:04

you can run that

1:04:06

technology have experiences of

1:04:09

let's say so. The

1:04:12

developmentally your structure is actually

1:04:14

not at that level structurally

1:04:16

what does that mean it

1:04:18

means you can interpret the

1:04:21

whole state experience based

1:04:23

on the level of development that you're at.

1:04:27

Right ideally we want you

1:04:29

to be interpreting the state experience at

1:04:31

the level that that state comes from.

1:04:36

So this is why in some

1:04:38

ways meditation itself can be developmentally

1:04:40

inappropriate like there's

1:04:43

more important lessons to be doing. When

1:04:46

you're you know when our kids are preschool we

1:04:48

want them to be doing preschool

1:04:50

stuff when they're in middle school we want

1:04:52

them to be middle school. There's

1:04:54

nothing worse than a precocious

1:04:57

child who's been like listen to the

1:04:59

wrong conversations and is like you

1:05:02

know in middle school and telling everybody else

1:05:04

about like whatever it is. When

1:05:06

really that isn't necessary the lesson that

1:05:08

needs to be learned at that stage

1:05:10

right and it could fracture consciousness perhaps

1:05:13

at that stage too because there are eyes

1:05:15

and energy gets put on the site for

1:05:17

this one area which is. You

1:05:20

know we talked in the Gilbert podcast

1:05:22

about the energies of our

1:05:24

amount in Lucifer can impulses

1:05:26

and you know in the east there's

1:05:28

more Lucifer compulsive in terms of these

1:05:31

early access to these spiritual experience

1:05:33

you know states and experiences. Now

1:05:37

there's no value judgment on that but you

1:05:39

know if there is like you're speaking to

1:05:42

there's these other developmental processes that haven't been

1:05:44

focused on first then. You

1:05:46

might be able to and you see this with

1:05:48

a lot of gurus that have woken up to

1:05:50

the profound truth of who they are but they

1:05:52

still haven't cleaned up their own you

1:05:54

know psycho dynamic Stuff

1:05:57

and childhood stuff. And. Though

1:06:00

I feel like we often put

1:06:02

this umbrella of like waking Up as

1:06:04

just the kind of everything. but it's

1:06:07

like one aspect of this cat waking

1:06:09

up. Ideal.

1:06:11

Whoa. I'm. Offering

1:06:13

can. Articulated

1:06:15

this this this simple maxims kind

1:06:18

of waking up growing up. Cleaning,

1:06:21

cleaning up, opening up, showing up and I

1:06:23

always like to add fucking up. You

1:06:27

never know his as really the lotta Elizabeth A lot

1:06:29

of that happened. They at it as a great. The

1:06:33

growing Up process before we are going to

1:06:35

this good idea on a dive into this

1:06:37

was or anything else within the said six

1:06:39

for Sli S Yes! Oh so am. I

1:06:45

think the first thing to to

1:06:47

say is essentially what the fifth

1:06:49

so that is opening up that

1:06:51

holds here. Of.

1:06:53

The soul. Of. Non

1:06:56

conceptual valid cognition. Were.

1:07:01

That. The whole macovei is

1:07:03

the recognition of the fabric

1:07:06

of love. As

1:07:09

being like the of the

1:07:12

the fabric upon which all

1:07:14

that information is flowing so

1:07:16

the intuitive information is slowing

1:07:18

on Love with that makes

1:07:21

sense. As

1:07:25

that process so in the

1:07:27

beginning of that tear. Believe

1:07:32

this is where we can get into

1:07:34

like this like closer of a mean.

1:07:38

Some. of the the details these dynamics

1:07:40

but essentially because this ask you this

1:07:42

will be speaking to many of many

1:07:45

of your listeners that beginning to journey

1:07:47

into that into that room. So

1:07:50

the beginning. Of.

1:07:52

That tier of of so

1:07:55

the to tear of the

1:07:57

bodhisattvas. The.

1:08:00

experiences of

1:08:02

that fundamental openness. So

1:08:05

from the point of view of the

1:08:07

mind, you're seeing through the structures. And

1:08:10

then from the point of view of the heart, you're

1:08:12

feeling that as like

1:08:14

a deep intimacy. With

1:08:18

all beings. In

1:08:22

the beginning, it's

1:08:24

a passive process. What I

1:08:26

mean is that to kind of have that

1:08:28

state, it takes a lot of work

1:08:32

to be able to calm the mind

1:08:34

down and open things up

1:08:37

to experience it. So your

1:08:39

ego in some senses is passive. You

1:08:42

have a meditation practice. After

1:08:47

a certain amount of time and the

1:08:49

better the teaching and

1:08:52

the better the teacher, the faster that time,

1:08:55

because that time could be decades

1:08:58

or months. I

1:09:00

mean, the technology does matter. I think

1:09:03

what's important for our friends

1:09:05

to understand is that just

1:09:10

as you and I and all of

1:09:12

us took that journey from zero perspective

1:09:14

to fourth person perspective through

1:09:17

our educational system. If

1:09:19

you went through the educational system, particularly

1:09:21

recently, you will get to fourth person

1:09:23

perspective at university. That is like guaranteed

1:09:26

is scaffolded. So

1:09:29

it's not some kind of like mysterious

1:09:32

process that we don't know

1:09:34

anything about. It's

1:09:36

the same thing up. That

1:09:39

makes sense. It's not a mysterious process.

1:09:41

Even the term mysticism is

1:09:44

a bit of a misnomer because it actually isn't a

1:09:46

mystery. It's

1:09:48

a science. So I'm

1:09:51

saying that because as we move in

1:09:53

to discuss these realms, which might sound

1:09:55

mystical, They're

1:09:58

actually pretty precise. From

1:10:00

the point of view of the academy from

1:10:02

the visible college if you will. From the

1:10:04

kind of the add up to the planetary

1:10:07

dharma this is not. Like

1:10:09

fake. And. So

1:10:12

first kind of phase is somewhat

1:10:14

passive whether you're taking. Plum.

1:10:17

Medicine? Are you doing a

1:10:19

meditation practice as that new

1:10:21

perspective. Is. Essentially

1:10:24

wired in. So.

1:10:26

In terms of like the the kind

1:10:28

of the neural plasticity to hold that

1:10:30

way of looking at reality become solid

1:10:32

the next stage which would be like

1:10:34

a four point five stages that the

1:10:36

mind. Thinking

1:10:39

Mind can now be

1:10:41

fully operational whilst maintaining

1:10:43

that experience a fundamental

1:10:45

openness. right? So you

1:10:47

identity. Now your identity has shifted

1:10:49

to like soul identity. so realization.

1:10:52

But it's more than that but

1:10:54

is Now you can reintroduce the

1:10:56

mind. And now

1:10:59

the mind and start being

1:11:01

informed by that field and

1:11:03

it can begin to organize

1:11:05

is self and reveal itself.

1:11:08

So the mind itself begins

1:11:10

to become an expression of

1:11:12

synchronicity. That's. What we mean

1:11:14

by intuition. As

1:11:17

that matures, You

1:11:19

know that point? You think you're you're really hot

1:11:21

shit. And you are

1:11:24

harsh his funds because frankly

1:11:26

with developmentally we're talking probably

1:11:28

like. You know? no point. No.

1:11:33

One. Percent. Of

1:11:35

the planetary population. I'm.

1:11:41

But then what begins to dawn on

1:11:44

the practitioner is that. Oh. Maybe

1:11:46

I'm not alone here. right?

1:11:49

So if you can imagine if you

1:11:51

know that that the Eu be the

1:11:53

same thing way back down and like

1:11:55

com. preschool were

1:11:57

like little billie or live

1:12:00

you know, Joanne learns how to talk

1:12:02

and learns how to like move

1:12:04

and they're pretty hot shit. And

1:12:06

then suddenly they go to the next classroom and

1:12:09

like everybody's doing it. But

1:12:11

before that they were like, look at like, look

1:12:13

at me. So

1:12:15

that what happens is the soul begins

1:12:17

to realize that it is joining what

1:12:20

we would call the human hierarchy. That

1:12:22

there is actually like a, for want

1:12:24

of a, for to use a contemporary

1:12:26

term, there is a organization

1:12:29

that they, that they kind of

1:12:31

step into or they begin to

1:12:33

intuit that they're part of, of

1:12:36

an organization, an organization,

1:12:38

hierarchy, a hollarchy of

1:12:41

advanced souls, if you

1:12:43

will, of wisdom and compassion. But

1:12:46

again, not advanced really compared

1:12:48

to like some

1:12:50

of the other galactic civilizations. You know

1:12:52

what I mean? Like it's like advanced

1:12:54

compared to maybe the

1:12:57

majority of humanity. Right.

1:13:00

A lot of like for, so a lot of our

1:13:02

listeners, perhaps who are already, you know, some of who

1:13:04

are already engaged, already involved in that part of the

1:13:06

challenge is that because of

1:13:08

this wetware, this body mind hasn't

1:13:11

been initiated. And we can talk

1:13:14

about the need for building a new

1:13:16

initiatory system. Because of

1:13:18

that, your

1:13:21

remembrance between functioning

1:13:24

within a department of that

1:13:27

organization in the dream

1:13:29

state and what you're doing

1:13:31

in the awake state is

1:13:34

not the transference of information because

1:13:36

of the kind of the, the,

1:13:39

the pineal atrophy, if that

1:13:41

makes sense, and the lack of the,

1:13:44

of kind of DMT in the system. The

1:13:48

ability to carry over that information from

1:13:50

one dimension to another dimension is weak.

1:13:54

And this is actually a major problem that

1:13:56

we have right now with many people, that

1:13:58

level of initiation is not not

1:14:00

knowing that they're part of something,

1:14:02

but they are. You know, like

1:14:05

a good example, my wife Nicole,

1:14:11

forget what, the first, it was a

1:14:13

few years back, what was one of those

1:14:15

elections where people were like, oh my God,

1:14:17

what is gonna happen? And she got so concerned

1:14:19

that she was, she started lucid dreaming and

1:14:22

then went through a whole cycle where she was

1:14:24

with a group and they would go to different

1:14:27

places on the planet, the

1:14:29

White House or the Sudan, and

1:14:32

essentially provide kind of

1:14:34

like off-ground support. The

1:14:39

truth is that if that would be

1:14:41

your motivation in the waking state, then

1:14:45

it's also what's happening in the dream state,

1:14:47

which is more connected to the kind of

1:14:49

that much larger

1:14:52

ecosystem of soul. But

1:14:55

because the physical body hasn't

1:14:57

been initiated because of

1:14:59

the chemistry of this body, we're

1:15:01

not able to remember. Does that

1:15:03

make sense? And that's why the

1:15:05

initiatory systems were so important because they were

1:15:08

helped to kind of like support the soul,

1:15:10

the body and the personality, the

1:15:12

soul and the personality integrating.

1:15:17

So that's

1:15:20

sixth person perspective. Now, just

1:15:23

so you know, in terms of, let's say the

1:15:25

advanced meditation systems, that is maybe

1:15:29

only two thirds of the way up the mountain.

1:15:33

I don't know if it's talking about those

1:15:35

more rarefied kind of clear

1:15:38

light states. I

1:15:40

don't know how useful it is, so to speak,

1:15:42

but just recognize that there are further grades.

1:15:45

I mean, what we're talking about now is

1:15:49

the territory that probably need everybody

1:15:51

who's listening in

1:15:53

this lifetime. That is like the

1:15:55

territory that is like, it's also the territory

1:15:57

that's really needed, so to speak.

1:16:00

speak, because if we can build

1:16:02

a new initiatory system

1:16:04

that really takes people through

1:16:06

those stages into

1:16:08

Sacred World and initiates the chemistry

1:16:10

so that we actually can see

1:16:13

Sacred World again, that's

1:16:15

enough to put us, to reverse the

1:16:17

wheel and put us in the, you know, heading

1:16:20

in the right direction. Yeah, well,

1:16:22

we can dive into the initiatory process of what that

1:16:24

system would look like a little bit later, but I

1:16:28

love how you broke that down from

1:16:30

zero to seventh person perspective

1:16:33

and also throw up that chart

1:16:35

from Wilbur's integral

1:16:37

spirituality about the levels of consciousness so

1:16:39

people can see the color

1:16:41

coordination and also how many, there's so many

1:16:43

different frameworks for the developmental

1:16:45

process that overlap, right? And

1:16:48

you know, from pre-conventional to conventional

1:16:51

to post-conventional from egocentric to ethnocentric

1:16:53

to world-centric to cosmic-centric. What's,

1:16:58

you know, maybe sometime we can look at

1:17:00

these maps because, you know, some of the

1:17:02

more sophisticated ones which look at like the,

1:17:04

let's say, the seven, seven

1:17:06

tiers, appreciate

1:17:08

seven subphases and

1:17:11

then you begin to understand that what

1:17:13

we're talking about is chromatic and harmonic,

1:17:16

meaning like music.

1:17:19

And once you understand that, then you can play a

1:17:21

note at the bottom and it can reverberate all the

1:17:23

way up, so to speak. So

1:17:25

it's as if this is

1:17:27

where the Pythagorean sciences and

1:17:29

the appreciation of music and

1:17:32

why geometry was studied. Geometry

1:17:34

was studied so that these

1:17:37

maps could be introduced, right? You

1:17:40

could put a point with a compass,

1:17:43

make two circles, spirit,

1:17:45

matter, vescapresis in

1:17:47

the middle, soul, and

1:17:50

then basically the initiate would learn

1:17:52

through mathematics and geometry to format

1:17:54

the mind to be able to

1:17:57

see all of these stages. So

1:18:01

in the traditions, this

1:18:04

was an essential part of the spiritual

1:18:06

science to get the mind aligned

1:18:09

with the structure of sacred world.

1:18:11

Because if we do that, your

1:18:14

thought processes are resonant

1:18:17

with the actual structure of

1:18:19

reality. That isn't enough, but

1:18:22

it's helpful. Yeah. Okay,

1:18:24

cool. So I'd like to now

1:18:27

go. I

1:18:29

would too. The

1:18:35

cleaning up, growing up, waking

1:18:37

up side of things. Because

1:18:40

this also, I

1:18:42

think we just kind of provided, mainly you

1:18:44

provided an overview of

1:18:47

the developmental process and journey. Let's

1:18:51

start with cleaning up. Let's talk about it.

1:18:53

Because the metabolizing

1:18:56

of our childhood

1:18:58

stuff and all

1:19:01

this is a very recent but very important

1:19:04

discovery, I guess, in this kind of time

1:19:06

cycle within humanity. It is

1:19:08

one aspect of it, but it's an important one. So let's

1:19:10

unpack each of them. I

1:19:13

think it's important to give credit to

1:19:15

Ken. Because

1:19:18

essentially what we're describing here

1:19:21

are the different, in

1:19:24

the physical body, the

1:19:26

different processes that major organs are

1:19:29

doing. These

1:19:31

are the major organ processes

1:19:33

of the psyche. So

1:19:36

shout out to Uncle Ken. Yeah, we love

1:19:38

you. We love you Ken. We'll get into

1:19:41

the studio at some point. Right, yeah. Ken's

1:19:43

new book, Finding Radical Wholeness. If

1:19:46

you guys want to dive in, I think

1:19:48

that would be like, he breaks this down. But

1:19:51

let's start with cleaning up. So

1:19:57

essentially what we're talking about in the cleaning

1:19:59

up. up process is

1:20:03

the integration and the

1:20:05

metabolizing of psychodynamic material.

1:20:08

Now what happens in

1:20:15

all of us to some extent

1:20:17

when we're not fully individuated, so

1:20:19

the term individuation is related to

1:20:21

cleaning up, when we're

1:20:24

not completely individuated we're fused

1:20:27

with our childhood structures. So

1:20:30

cleaning up is about digesting the childhood

1:20:33

shadow. However,

1:20:41

cleaning up is a good one-liner, but if

1:20:43

we go a little bit deeper, what we're

1:20:45

really talking about is, okay, what

1:20:47

are these structures, these early structures? Well,

1:20:50

there's the attachment system. There's

1:20:55

the self system. Well, there's the

1:20:58

attachment system, there's the early relational

1:21:00

system, and there's the self system.

1:21:02

And in some ways we can

1:21:04

map those onto the three chakras.

1:21:08

So cleaning up process generally,

1:21:11

the heart opens

1:21:14

down. Now this

1:21:16

is important also in terms of the

1:21:18

sacred journey because that's where the dragon

1:21:20

energy comes from. We

1:21:23

want dragon energy. We

1:21:26

don't just want to ascend, we

1:21:28

want to descend. We want to bring

1:21:31

spirit down. And

1:21:34

so an important part of that is

1:21:36

cleaning up these lower energies. The

1:21:38

attachment system itself, so if we're using the

1:21:40

model of the chakras, let's say that is

1:21:43

like the root. The

1:21:47

attachment system is related

1:21:49

to our physical survival

1:21:52

in the sense that mammals grasp onto

1:21:54

their caregivers in order to have

1:21:56

a sense of security. And I

1:21:58

think a lot of the research... which indicates that

1:22:01

when mammals don't have

1:22:03

a caregiver, we basically,

1:22:05

we die. We just wither and die. So

1:22:09

the early childhood environment, the

1:22:13

outer experience of having somebody there

1:22:15

holding you, if

1:22:18

that makes sense, right? That

1:22:20

physical presence is internalized as

1:22:23

a deep sense of

1:22:26

security. And

1:22:28

how much of that personality structure is created before

1:22:30

the age of seven, would you say?

1:22:32

Oh, nearly all of it. That's wild.

1:22:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's nearly

1:22:38

all of it. Like, yeah. Typically

1:22:40

don't have real memory in the brain, even

1:22:44

in our body, our heart, our body store at all. That's

1:22:46

right. And not only that,

1:22:48

it's all relational. Yeah.

1:22:51

Meaning. Which is good indicator because

1:22:54

that's also where it's usually revealed in

1:22:56

interpersonal dynamics, right? Yeah. For

1:23:02

sure. That's right. I'm

1:23:05

watching my daughter now, as

1:23:07

she moves into dating. And

1:23:09

of course she's got two parents. And so we

1:23:12

sit down, we're talking about the attachment styles because

1:23:14

it's like, oh my gosh, it's a minefield out

1:23:16

there. All these kids who

1:23:18

haven't had the right attachment, it

1:23:20

all gets played out in

1:23:22

relationship. God bless you both as parents. I

1:23:25

wish we all could have parents that understood

1:23:27

this. If everybody right now could please pray

1:23:29

for myself and my wife and our youngest

1:23:31

parents. Maybe that would make

1:23:33

this whole point. Okay,

1:23:38

so attachment system. First, right,

1:23:41

safety, right? Feeling physically

1:23:44

safe. Even that

1:23:46

stems even way back to the physiological skin

1:23:48

on skin contact right after birth. Well, that's

1:23:50

right. And what will, so,

1:23:53

you know, the

1:23:58

next generation of teaching around. on this.

1:24:00

So, you know, the

1:24:03

kind of teaching that I

1:24:05

teach, to work with is, once

1:24:08

you understand, is an appreciation that

1:24:10

there's a relationship actually between these

1:24:12

lowest structures and the

1:24:15

highest. Meaning, the

1:24:19

relaxation of the root and the

1:24:21

sense of safety actually releases the

1:24:23

crown. So it isn't

1:24:25

that, oh, I'm just going to

1:24:27

rush through my cleaning up stuff. Actually,

1:24:31

there's an intimate relationship

1:24:33

between how deeply you

1:24:35

can embody and therefore

1:24:38

internalize safety and

1:24:41

how stable your soul

1:24:43

realization and non-dual realization can be

1:24:45

further on along the path. So

1:24:48

that's really important to understand is actually,

1:24:51

in the

1:24:53

sixth person perspective, when

1:24:55

we're developing new technologies,

1:24:59

so different spiritual paths

1:25:02

are evolved by teachers at

1:25:05

various stages of development. Does that

1:25:07

make sense? Okay. The next level

1:25:10

tech, right, which

1:25:12

is like, Hellonic, resonant

1:25:14

model, kind of holographic

1:25:16

tech, chromatic and

1:25:19

understanding how these stages resonate.

1:25:23

You know, this is a very different, this is part

1:25:25

of the fourth turning. Fourth turning is

1:25:27

a whole different body of

1:25:29

tech. Okay. So when we

1:25:31

look at this early stuff, what

1:25:33

we're looking at is these are the

1:25:36

things that stop us from actually stabilizing

1:25:38

soul realization. Okay. So safety is the

1:25:40

first one. The second

1:25:42

quality is, is attunement. And

1:25:45

I've got to really give a shout out to

1:25:47

my old mentor, Dr.

1:25:49

Dan Brown, who mentored me in attachment

1:25:52

therapy for a decade. So

1:25:55

just so you know that

1:25:57

these have lineages associated with

1:25:59

them. Attunement,

1:26:04

if you see a parent holding a

1:26:06

child and you can

1:26:08

see the child feeling safe, but

1:26:11

the parent is checking their phone, the

1:26:14

child might feel safe, but the child

1:26:17

won't feel attuned to. What

1:26:19

is attunement? Attunement is where you

1:26:22

feel into the nervous system of

1:26:24

somebody else. So

1:26:26

if we're attuning to each other, I'm

1:26:28

feeling you, you're feeling me, I'm feeling

1:26:31

felt by you. I'm like, Andre, Andre

1:26:33

gets me. And like,

1:26:35

Andre is like, Oh, I feel felt by

1:26:37

John. That feeling

1:26:40

felt experience is

1:26:43

essentially taking the other person's

1:26:45

nervous system inside of you.

1:26:47

And in the chart, in the case of a child,

1:26:50

the parent's nervous system is

1:26:53

being used to organize the

1:26:55

child's nervous system. Alright,

1:26:57

so if a child doesn't get that, for instance,

1:27:02

that's where you might see like a

1:27:04

borderline injuries, where the

1:27:06

ability to organize the internal

1:27:08

landscape is very difficult.

1:27:11

So we've got a sense of safety, we've

1:27:13

got a sense of attunement. Now,

1:27:16

if you focus on developing safety

1:27:18

and attunement, a lot of

1:27:20

the higher noise of the mind will quieten down.

1:27:23

Because a lot of the kind of

1:27:26

ADD ish and constant thinking is

1:27:28

due to a lack of safety.

1:27:32

So safety, attunement,

1:27:35

the next quality would be like feeling

1:27:38

valued, or

1:27:40

even adored. It's like when little Andre

1:27:43

was, you know, a little Johnny were

1:27:45

in the playground, they turned around, and

1:27:47

mommy or daddy was like looking at

1:27:49

them, and they saw, they

1:27:51

were seen, but not

1:27:53

just seen, but like completely cherished. Little

1:27:57

Billy, little Johnny, Andre internalized.

1:28:00

It's like, I am cherished.

1:28:02

Right. And

1:28:05

it's often the case where that need is not

1:28:07

met because I think a lot of people just

1:28:09

see trauma as stuff that you

1:28:11

didn't want to have happen happen to

1:28:13

you, but it's also the stuff that you needed to have

1:28:15

happen that didn't happen. That's why

1:28:17

I say cleaning up isn't quite

1:28:20

the right term because

1:28:22

you're not just cleaning up, you

1:28:24

might be rebuilding. Reparenting, I

1:28:26

don't know if that's the right word. Well,

1:28:28

technically you could say restructuring. You're

1:28:31

going down and you're rebuilding

1:28:34

structures in the

1:28:36

psyche. So there is a cleaning up phase, yes.

1:28:40

If you've had acute

1:28:42

traumas, then we want to clean those

1:28:44

out. But developmental trauma can

1:28:47

be a trauma caused by the

1:28:49

absence of something. This

1:28:51

is hard work. It is hard work. But

1:28:54

again, there's an

1:28:56

understanding what the

1:28:58

right tech is for that level of

1:29:01

issue. That can be super

1:29:03

helpful because using the wrong tech at

1:29:07

the wrong level of development. Right. Because

1:29:09

you can meditate all day long if it's not going to do

1:29:11

anything for that. Not unless, I

1:29:14

mean, what I've done is

1:29:16

re-engineered the contemplative system

1:29:19

so that actually I get my students

1:29:21

to meditate on those functions. So

1:29:24

if you're taking the best of East

1:29:26

and West, in the right context, fourth

1:29:28

turning, you actually recombine them. You develop

1:29:30

the meditative skills whilst doing

1:29:33

the reparenting piece. And that

1:29:35

way you're doing both processes

1:29:37

simultaneously. But yes, generally

1:29:39

knowing which

1:29:43

one, you can

1:29:45

waste years and years and years. And

1:29:48

the thing is, that is

1:29:50

so common. So

1:29:52

how do our listeners, how do I, how

1:29:54

do we continue to gain clarity as to

1:29:56

what those pieces are that we really do

1:29:58

need to clean up? up or hold space

1:30:01

for it to create the developmental process. Um,

1:30:04

we can go into the many different, you know,

1:30:06

fairies. Well, let's, let's complete them. Okay. So the

1:30:08

attachment system, right? Safety,

1:30:11

safety, attunement kind of

1:30:13

value. And then also

1:30:16

basically if, if I was your

1:30:18

dad and like, let's say we come from a

1:30:20

family of lawyers and you like music

1:30:23

and I'm like music. Right.

1:30:25

And you see that I see

1:30:28

that you need to be a musician

1:30:30

and I'm like asking you the questions. Andre,

1:30:33

how do you feel about this? Andre, like you're

1:30:36

developing a cognitive capacity to

1:30:38

ask yourself questions about yourself

1:30:42

because I'm interested in you and I'm

1:30:44

asking, I'm modeling. If you

1:30:46

don't have that, you don't even ask questions.

1:30:49

You can't even think like that. Oh,

1:30:51

what do I want? What do I think? What

1:30:54

do I think? What do I, what do I

1:30:56

think about this? We're just so outwardly source. What,

1:30:58

what will be safe and, and there's no cognitive.

1:31:00

So having modeled to you, what do I want?

1:31:05

I think Andre, that you want to play. You don't

1:31:07

want to be a lawyer. Do you? You don't want

1:31:10

to be a break. You want to be a musician.

1:31:12

You want to be a podcast. So

1:31:15

that is one of the qualities of attachment,

1:31:17

which is a deep care,

1:31:19

a deep caring on my part

1:31:21

to help instill inside of you your

1:31:24

GPS system. Yeah. And the alternative, which

1:31:26

is unfortunately the widespread case most of

1:31:28

the time is. Music.

1:31:31

No lawyer. You

1:31:34

want to be a lawyer because the,

1:31:37

the john, the johns are lawyers. The

1:31:39

johns are lawyers. Meditation

1:31:42

masters. Yeah. No, I want

1:31:45

to be a jazz musician. Um,

1:31:47

okay. So that's, so those are, you

1:31:50

can see how, how important those are.

1:31:52

So first even knowing that. So

1:31:55

there's, so there's, there's, there's that section of

1:31:57

the stack. The next section of the stack

1:31:59

is. related to the dysfunctional

1:32:02

relationships that were mirrored to you when

1:32:04

you were a little bit older. So

1:32:06

that attachment stack is like, I don't know, zero

1:32:08

to four or five. Let's

1:32:10

say between five and 10, you're watching

1:32:12

how mommy and daddy do relationship. Okay.

1:32:17

That forms a whole model and

1:32:19

mapping of relationship. Okay.

1:32:22

That's a different attachment

1:32:24

will not address that.

1:32:28

That's like got to do with the

1:32:30

mapping of how, of the meaning making,

1:32:32

meaning making that you've made of the

1:32:34

relational landscape. Third

1:32:37

system here has got to do with the self system. Self

1:32:41

system isn't got, that isn't got to

1:32:43

do with attachment. That's not got to

1:32:45

do with the attachment system. Yeah.

1:32:48

It hasn't got to do with the relational

1:32:50

constructs. It's got to do with self. So

1:32:54

the first thing is like, what is your

1:32:56

self definition? Who

1:32:58

do you see yourself to be? Right.

1:33:01

So self definition, self

1:33:04

esteem and self efficacy. These

1:33:07

are all built around the self

1:33:09

structure itself. So people

1:33:11

who don't have a strong sense of

1:33:14

self, meaning when they reflect upon themselves,

1:33:16

they don't know what

1:33:18

they're about and they don't have a sense

1:33:20

of their self image or

1:33:23

a self image that is efficient, that

1:33:25

is like capable and positive.

1:33:28

So maybe they have a negative

1:33:30

self image, right? So

1:33:32

the restructuring of the self image so

1:33:35

that when you reflect upon yourself and you

1:33:37

see yourself, you see a piece

1:33:40

of artwork that you're like, okay,

1:33:44

I feel good about that. That's who

1:33:46

I want to be. Right. So that's the

1:33:49

self definition piece. Self

1:33:51

self-efficacy, well self esteem

1:33:54

is well, how good do I feel

1:33:56

about that? How good

1:33:58

do I feel about the. structure that

1:34:00

I'm building. And

1:34:02

then self-efficacy is, well, how effective am

1:34:05

I? So

1:34:08

some people, their parents help them

1:34:10

feel really effective, but

1:34:14

no sense of self-definition, or

1:34:17

feel really good sense of self-esteem,

1:34:20

but completely ineffective. You

1:34:24

might know people out like that who just

1:34:26

feel really good about themselves, they're just chilling

1:34:28

out, maybe smoke a bit of

1:34:30

cannabis for a few decades, not really do

1:34:32

anything. They're not effective, but they

1:34:34

just feel good about who they are. So

1:34:38

those three main dimensions,

1:34:42

attachment system, relational system, self-system,

1:34:45

you can think of that kind of related

1:34:47

to the lower chakras, cleaning

1:34:49

those up and

1:34:51

restructuring them, so that we

1:34:53

have an optimal self-structure. So

1:34:55

that's cleaning

1:34:57

up the roots of the self,

1:35:00

the psychodynamic piece, right? Yeah. Okay.

1:35:04

And there's various therapies for each of them. Well, we could

1:35:06

even, I mean, hundreds

1:35:08

of therapies. But if

1:35:10

you understand those three dimensions, it's

1:35:12

like, oh, attachment work,

1:35:14

any kind of attachment therapy will

1:35:17

address those kind of lower

1:35:20

attachment system, or kind

1:35:22

of relational works like a dynamic work or

1:35:26

self-work. So I

1:35:28

mean, we spoke to a little bit

1:35:30

that we really get often revealed to

1:35:32

what is the unprocessed shadow material through

1:35:34

the interpersonal dynamics where we have an

1:35:37

avoidant or anxious kind

1:35:39

of attachment style. And it's like, okay, so

1:35:41

we can go into that down in before

1:35:43

we go up into that process. Gestalt

1:35:46

therapy can provide the powerful framework

1:35:48

for three, two, one process of

1:35:51

putting it into third person, second,

1:35:53

first person. And

1:35:56

so I like breaking all these down in potential therapies

1:35:58

for each of them because I that I'm putting

1:36:00

myself in the shoes of a listener where

1:36:03

we all have our own different unique stuff,

1:36:05

right? Yeah, I mean, so with

1:36:08

the attachment work, I mean,

1:36:10

often that happens, my

1:36:14

mentor, my late mentor, Dr. Dan

1:36:16

Brown, who passed away, who did

1:36:18

amazing work on attachment work, mainly,

1:36:21

in my view, influenced

1:36:24

by the Indo-Tibetan tradition. So

1:36:27

maybe I'll talk a

1:36:29

little bit about that, and then we can, because

1:36:31

I think that's a really helpful approach.

1:36:35

And it also, frankly, in my work,

1:36:38

I'm interested in how do I connect,

1:36:41

let's say the attachment system, to full

1:36:43

awakening. Like, we

1:36:45

don't wanna just do one or the other,

1:36:47

there's a way of cohering these in such

1:36:49

a way that they're interconnected. For

1:36:53

the attachment system, at

1:36:57

a kind of basic level,

1:37:00

what matters is how well

1:37:03

you and I have

1:37:05

internalized a relationship. So

1:37:08

it's not actually even if there was

1:37:10

that relationship, because if you didn't internalize

1:37:12

it, then

1:37:14

you're still gonna have a challenging

1:37:16

attachment system. If you have

1:37:19

ADD, so in my

1:37:21

mind, ADD is a symptom of multi-generational trauma that's

1:37:23

kind of like building up. So if you have

1:37:25

ADD, if I'm your parent, and even if I'm

1:37:28

trying to give you, like

1:37:30

connect with you, and if you're just like kind

1:37:33

of, then you

1:37:35

haven't been able to internalize it.

1:37:37

So the internalization

1:37:40

of the relationship is important. Second

1:37:44

thing to understand is the brain

1:37:46

doesn't know the difference between whether

1:37:49

you imagine that you've had a relationship like

1:37:51

that, or whether you did. If

1:37:54

you put someone in an MRI machine, and

1:37:57

you hold up a green card,

1:38:00

and they say, you know, what is this? And they go green.

1:38:02

Okay. And then you hold up a red

1:38:05

card. And I say to you, like, imagine

1:38:07

this is green. And even though they're seeing

1:38:09

red, green will light up.

1:38:12

What that means is what we're projecting onto

1:38:15

reality in some ways has more of

1:38:18

an influence on the brain than actually

1:38:20

reality itself. That's why

1:38:22

projection is so

1:38:24

powerful in these interpersonal, because we're

1:38:26

projecting ghosts of the past onto

1:38:29

each other. Yeah. Right? It's like, if you know one

1:38:31

or two people that are assholes in your life, then

1:38:33

they might be assholes. But if everyone's an asshole in

1:38:35

your life, you're the asshole. You're

1:38:39

projecting. Absolutely. Yeah. For

1:38:42

sure. So, where

1:38:45

are we? Sorry. That

1:38:47

distracted us. That had nothing to do

1:38:49

with me. Yeah.

1:38:52

That projection is powerful. Oh, that's right.

1:38:54

So, okay. So, in the

1:38:57

Indo-Tibetan tradition, it

1:39:00

was understood that, like, the best, it was

1:39:03

said that the best teacher is the one

1:39:05

that lives four valleys over. Why?

1:39:07

Because you get to project onto her.

1:39:10

Right? If you get to see the teacher

1:39:12

early in the morning with, like, drool coming

1:39:15

out, like, you know, and his wife, you

1:39:17

know, like, shit. Right? I

1:39:21

don't want to follow that. I don't want

1:39:23

to study with that person. But the idea

1:39:25

that the teacher, that you didn't have access

1:39:27

to that teacher, and the only times you

1:39:29

showed up was where the teacher was giving

1:39:31

this amazing teaching, you'd be like, oh, wow.

1:39:36

So, the appreciation of projection in

1:39:38

a mature way is

1:39:41

also, in my mind, a hallmark of

1:39:43

a student who is ready for

1:39:45

the fourth tranny. If

1:39:47

you're going to, like, work with a

1:39:50

teacher, and you're going to project your daddy or mommy

1:39:52

stuff onto them, you're probably

1:39:54

not ready. Right? Because these

1:39:56

traditions rely upon transmission.

1:40:01

So if you don't

1:40:03

have access to a teacher, if you

1:40:05

don't have access to a parent or a

1:40:08

therapist, well

1:40:10

the thing is you can envision what

1:40:14

the perfect parent or

1:40:16

perfect guide or perfect teacher

1:40:20

would be like. So

1:40:22

in the tradition, part of

1:40:24

that is the visualization practices

1:40:26

of teachers, but also

1:40:28

the visualization practices of archetypal forms.

1:40:31

So let's say the

1:40:33

healing mother, white Tara, or

1:40:36

medicine Buddha, which would be like

1:40:38

the ideal therapist,

1:40:40

the ideal parent. So

1:40:43

if you have these archetypal forms

1:40:45

that have been built up by thousands

1:40:48

of generations of practitioners who

1:40:50

are like, oh, okay, so you

1:40:52

have some parenting stuff, well why don't

1:40:54

we have you work with this pure

1:40:57

archetype of mothering?

1:41:01

And the first thing I want you to

1:41:03

do is kind of envision situations

1:41:06

where you see this amazing

1:41:10

healing mother feeding

1:41:14

her children and taking care

1:41:16

of the sick, and you

1:41:18

just familiarize yourself. And

1:41:20

how does it feel when you

1:41:22

watch her, and how is she talking to

1:41:25

the people around her, and

1:41:27

how is she moving? So

1:41:29

you begin to familiarize yourself

1:41:31

with that energy, and then you

1:41:33

kind of bring the visualization of Tara or

1:41:37

whoever it is in front of you, and

1:41:40

you begin to get a sense of what

1:41:42

does it feel like to sit in the

1:41:44

presence of somebody

1:41:46

who makes me feel really safe. So

1:41:50

if I was sitting in the presence of somebody who

1:41:52

is really safe. Now

1:41:54

the truth is, even

1:41:57

if I've had some developmental... lack,

1:42:02

our brains are

1:42:04

shaped by thousands of years

1:42:06

of love. So the deep

1:42:13

structure, the dharmic

1:42:16

traditions on the

1:42:18

planet all agree that if you can

1:42:21

get through the conditioning, that the deep

1:42:23

structure of this body-mind

1:42:25

is over Christ, is of

1:42:27

a bodhisattva, and that actually that

1:42:29

is innately good. If you can

1:42:32

hit the factory reset button you'll come back to

1:42:34

your default which is love. That's right. So

1:42:38

at the beginning you

1:42:41

know you work with an envisionment

1:42:43

practice, right, and so the

1:42:47

student, the person who's being

1:42:50

you know the patient because you do

1:42:52

have to be patient. It

1:42:54

does take patience. Beginning

1:42:57

to form a relationship. Now in

1:42:59

the traditions if you had a teacher that

1:43:01

you trusted, right, and I go and have

1:43:04

an interview with my teacher and there she

1:43:06

is and I trust her and she's not,

1:43:08

she's being, all that she's there for is

1:43:10

to care for me, and

1:43:12

then I leave and then I internalize

1:43:14

that relationship and I bring her out

1:43:16

there and I feel like what does

1:43:19

it feel like to be in relationship

1:43:21

with her. So the teacher then becomes,

1:43:23

or the therapist becomes internalized, but it

1:43:26

was always understood in the tradition that

1:43:28

like that the teacher was this underneath

1:43:30

the teacher was this archetype and

1:43:33

that they were just forming a

1:43:35

role. So it wasn't their personality, it

1:43:38

was the nature of understanding how projection

1:43:40

works, and that was

1:43:42

one of the ways that the Dharma

1:43:44

was transmitted from one

1:43:46

generation to another generation

1:43:48

was through close, intimate,

1:43:52

fiduciary relationships of

1:43:55

teacher and student. Does that make

1:43:57

sense? Okay, so if we can

1:43:59

internalize that and

1:44:02

do that process without necessarily having

1:44:04

a teacher, but understanding that

1:44:07

working with visualization practice will

1:44:09

help bring that in. Then,

1:44:13

of course, there's a shamanic dimension to it, which

1:44:15

is, if you

1:44:17

do that practice long enough with

1:44:19

a sincere heart that you're wanting to work

1:44:21

on this, then the form will

1:44:24

attract a being who will

1:44:27

be happy to be your surrogate,

1:44:30

just like you have spirit animals. There

1:44:32

are also members of the spiritual hierarchy who

1:44:34

are happy to come in here and help

1:44:37

you reparent. So,

1:44:41

traditionally, the process was you

1:44:43

first felt how

1:44:45

safe the person was

1:44:47

in front of you. You

1:44:50

took refuge in them, so you would

1:44:52

really appreciate, wow, it's so amazing to

1:44:54

be in this person's presence. What does

1:44:56

it feel like? Then,

1:44:59

you would then internalize the

1:45:02

archetype, the teacher,

1:45:04

and then you would become. So,

1:45:08

it was never left that was outside

1:45:10

of you. It was always internalized as,

1:45:12

now, this is part of Andre,

1:45:14

this is part of John, and

1:45:17

this is a dimension of you and

1:45:19

me that is the good parent. I

1:45:23

have received that transmission from my teacher

1:45:25

and my teacher's teacher and my teacher's

1:45:27

teacher's teacher and teacher's teacher. This

1:45:32

is what I love about human relationship

1:45:34

is all the

1:45:37

people that you and I have loved who

1:45:40

gave us that gift of fire gave

1:45:42

us that. I

1:45:46

learned this pretty early as a teen when

1:45:48

I left a girlfriend that I was really

1:45:50

in love with. But

1:45:53

I had the hero's journey to go on and I needed to

1:45:55

go and do some other things. I

1:45:58

realized, oh, if I sit here,

1:46:00

and I visualize this woman,

1:46:03

I can feel the love born between us.

1:46:07

That's the gift she gave me. Now

1:46:09

once I feel that, I can then

1:46:12

internalize that and the visualization can

1:46:14

just gently dissolve and

1:46:16

the attachment itself stayed.

1:46:20

And then essentially what you do is

1:46:22

you meditate on

1:46:24

the safety and

1:46:27

attunement and security.

1:46:31

Does that make sense? So that's like in