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psyche or text psyche to 500 500. A

1:46

listener note. This episode contains

1:48

adult content and is not suitable

1:50

for everyone. Please be

1:52

advised. In

2:02

October 2021, the 14-year-old

2:04

daughter of Kendra Lecaree

2:06

began receiving a barrage of

2:08

cruel and harassing messages on

2:10

her cell phone and on

2:13

social media from someone who she

2:15

thought was another teenager.

2:18

She didn't know who the sender was or

2:20

why they had chosen her, but

2:22

what she did know was

2:25

they refused to stop. Desperate,

2:28

the teen went to her mom for

2:31

help, and like any good

2:33

mother would, Kendra took her daughter to

2:35

the police station and

2:37

reported the cyberbullying, wanting

2:40

solace for her daughter.

2:43

As law enforcement launched into

2:45

their months-long investigation, the

2:47

threatening messages continued and

2:49

the content became more and

2:52

more hateful. With

2:54

assistance from the FBI, the

2:56

police finally tracked down the

2:58

culprit. But shockingly,

3:00

it was not another teenager.

3:04

It was the girl's own mother, Kendra

3:06

Lecaree. Today's

3:09

headline is courtesy of

3:12

KENS5, San Antonio.

3:15

What was presented to Isabella County Prosecutor

3:17

David Barbary was a police report saying

3:20

this woman, Kendra Lecaree, had catfished and

3:22

harassed her daughter and her daughter's boyfriend

3:24

for months. We're talking about several hundreds

3:27

of text messages, I

3:29

mean over a thousand pages of discovery

3:31

in the case. Lecaree is charged with

3:33

five crimes, mainly for stalking, as the

3:36

messages went on for more than a

3:38

year. But by and large, it was

3:40

mostly just harassing-type text messages, demeaning, demoralizing,

3:43

and kind of mean text.

3:46

Today we will speak with

3:48

licensed marriage and family therapist

3:50

Dr. Carol McBride, author

3:52

of Will I Ever Be Good Enough?

3:56

Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic

3:58

Mothers. we'll

4:00

discuss why and how a parent

4:03

does this to their own child.

4:25

Dr. McBride, the presiding judge

4:28

in this case called it one of the

4:30

most bizarre he'd ever

4:32

seen in his career. We

4:35

have a mother who catfished her

4:37

own daughter for nearly a year,

4:40

relentlessly bullied

4:43

her, then reported

4:45

the bullying herself and

4:48

helped in the investigation. Now

4:51

from your point of view, why

4:53

would someone, a mother,

4:55

do this to their own child?

4:59

Well, it certainly makes

5:01

you wonder, of course, what was the

5:03

motive for the mother? Is

5:05

the mother jealous of this child?

5:07

Does the mother need the attention

5:09

to be on her for some

5:11

reason? And why

5:13

would she not have the

5:16

empathy, the effect

5:18

that this could have on her child?

5:21

You pose an interesting question. Why

5:23

wouldn't the mother have empathy and why would

5:25

she do this? Well, of

5:27

course, I can't diagnose anything to do

5:30

with this case or the people as

5:32

I haven't treated them. This

5:34

concept of not having

5:36

empathy fits with the

5:38

term narcissism, right? And

5:40

I write specifically about

5:42

how narcissistic personality

5:46

disordered people or people

5:48

with a high number

5:50

of narcissistic traits can

5:54

unilaterally damage their

5:56

children and their families. I

5:59

Do know... That narcissism. Today the

6:01

term as turn around rather

6:03

nice Li So yes, I

6:06

think in the general public

6:08

tends to think that it's

6:10

about. People who were both

6:12

swollen arrogance and just talk about

6:14

themselves right? Foot. Would I

6:17

write about and what I care

6:19

more about or the traits of

6:21

narcissism best hurt people? Said.

6:23

Her relationships. That hurt. Parenting.

6:27

right? Arrogance posts fullness. It's

6:29

all about me. Me, Me

6:31

is one thing. but. To.

6:33

Do something that actually can

6:35

harm your child's mental health

6:38

And. Development. Is

6:41

and higher different level

6:43

of pathologies. That's

6:45

right, And again, if you

6:47

look at the traits in the Dsm

6:49

of narcissism. The. Know the

6:52

ones that concerned me, or

6:54

the lack of empathy, exploiting

6:56

others for one's own needs,

6:58

the sense of entitlement, the

7:00

lack of accountability, And.

7:03

Basically this the inability to to an

7:05

in to the emotional world of another

7:07

person. When. A child

7:09

is growing up. They certainly.

7:12

Don't. Have the ability to

7:14

analyze to step back and say

7:16

gee, mom. Thrilling. Narcissistic. I'm not

7:19

gonna let her nonsense. Bother

7:21

me? Oh no no no, no. editor

7:23

and year old can't do that. They

7:25

are. Subject to this

7:27

drama and manipulation. So.

7:30

What happens is the child

7:32

internalize is a negative message.

7:35

Of: I'm not good enough. I'll

7:37

never be goodness no matter how hard I

7:40

try. The end up having

7:42

what we call complex Post Traumatic

7:44

Stress Disorder. Caused. Not by

7:46

just one event that a series of

7:48

events in a in that your whole

7:50

childhood and it also affects their ability

7:53

to. Trust. Oh I

7:55

can imagine. And in a case like

7:57

this. So. In

7:59

the war. The old. Is. She ever

8:01

gonna be able to trust? I

8:04

mean unbelievable manipulation. But

8:06

wow. Putting. Her

8:08

in a position where she

8:11

believes she was being stalked

8:13

and harassed. And. Then

8:15

it was mom. A. Where do

8:18

you start? For example, this fifteen year

8:20

old girl now for walks into your

8:22

office and says my mom did x

8:24

y z. What do you

8:26

do as a clinician? Is. Tricky

8:29

Candace was out of this De

8:31

Niro. Room. Because. You

8:33

don't necessarily want to give a

8:35

label to her parents, right? So.

8:39

Yet And Zoc. Modeling.

8:42

A lot of empathy for

8:44

her and that is helping

8:46

her understand. What? See is

8:48

not getting and maybe never

8:50

did get. From. This mother

8:53

who is incapable of of

8:55

giving her you know, trustworthy

8:57

love in bonding an attachment.

9:00

I. Know the in this case. That her mother

9:02

said she sorry she did it But

9:04

those are words. In. Your

9:07

experience. Is it possible for

9:09

someone who is this profoundly

9:11

narcissistic that they were actually

9:13

hurt? Their. Own

9:15

child's psychologically. To.

9:18

Seal. Remorse. And

9:20

guilt. Not because they got caught.

9:23

But. Because. They truly seal

9:25

it because I understand they have hurt.

9:28

Their smile. He

9:30

really, you have to understand narcissism

9:32

as a spectrum disorder. So.

9:36

There can be traits along

9:38

this continuum. the closer they

9:40

get to the full blown

9:42

narcissistic personality disorder, the last,

9:44

they're going to feel guilt

9:46

remorse. If they do

9:48

express it it will have something

9:50

to do with them, not the

9:52

side in necessarily get into the

9:54

shoes of the child as we

9:57

do in infancy and really sealed

9:59

the effects. What that does to

10:01

their kid. From. One of

10:03

the common themes. New. Fine with

10:05

treating daughters of narcissistic mother's is

10:07

that their mothers are. Childless.

10:10

Of Down. So. What

10:12

I find really interesting when parents

10:15

are jealous in their children. Is.

10:17

This. On. The one

10:19

hand. You're criticizing guides

10:21

for all of your weaknesses,

10:23

so there's constant criticism in

10:26

judgment. On the one hand,

10:28

And. The other hand years

10:30

he did and persecuted for

10:33

your goodness. I. Mean.

10:35

I'm. Not a fairytale expert, but look

10:37

at Cinderella as a great example.

10:40

Seat. And sewing and cooking

10:42

and cleaning. Or. Her sister's

10:44

rate in that in that fairy

10:46

tale only. To. Get their malice.

10:49

The. Mother Kendra was barred

10:51

from having any contact with

10:54

her daughters And her daughter

10:56

actually. Wrote letters to the

10:58

court saying she wanted the

11:00

no contact order lifted. Fascinating.

11:04

Can you explain why she

11:07

want to reengage with their

11:09

mothers after being harassed so.

11:11

Viciously. What I've

11:13

seen in working with abused

11:15

children my whole life as

11:17

they often times want to

11:19

go back home. They. Would

11:21

rather go back to the abuser and then

11:24

go to the unknown. Which. Is

11:26

foster care or extended family.

11:28

They. Tend to keep going back

11:31

to the well, hoping and wishing

11:33

that this time it'll be different.

11:35

It'll be different. Maybe this birthday,

11:37

Maybe this Christmas I just graduated.

11:40

Maybe this will do it. Trying.

11:42

To get that love to no avail. What

11:45

will it take for her

11:47

to develop a healthy relationship

11:49

with her daughter's. Do. You even

11:51

think it's. Possible. I. think

11:54

said daughter will have a very

11:56

difficult time trusting as we said

11:58

the one that trust is

12:00

impaired, it's going to affect

12:02

the child's ability to trust

12:05

that parent. I

12:07

think it would take a

12:09

lot of long-term therapy for

12:11

the mother and the daughter

12:14

to be able to reconnect

12:16

on any sort of true,

12:18

authentic, emotionally trusting, intimate level.

12:21

Yeah, healthy. Healthy

12:23

with a great big question, Mark, after it. Yeah.

12:27

Well, Dr. McBride, I cannot thank you

12:29

enough for joining us today. This

12:32

has just been fascinating and

12:34

hope to talk with you again. Thank

12:36

you, Candace. I enjoyed it. Dr.

12:39

McBride's new book, Will the Drama

12:41

Ever End? is available on Amazon

12:43

and we will have a link

12:46

to it in our episode description.

12:58

Thank you.