0:00

Who did I need when I was robbing that church at 17 years old?

0:04

Who did I need when my friend killed himself? Who did I need? I needed this guy to come in and tell me it's going to be all right.

0:10

To come and tell me don't give up now because good things are coming for you.

0:15

You just wait on the Lord. I have a 4.0 GPA and I used to huff gasoline in my dad's shed.

0:21

When does that happen? Never. Let's be honest about recovery. The rewards, the challenges.

0:30

Let's talk about our failures. We are flawed people after all.

0:35

Let's challenge the stigmas that weigh us down.

0:38

Because while most of us are looked at, few of us are seen. Let's talk about addiction.

0:45

And how Christ overcomes our weaknesses. Because we are loved. Because we are loved.

0:52

Because we are loved. We are loved. We are loved. Because we are loved.

1:03

I'm Justin. And I'm Ashley. We're here to tell our story.

1:08

You know, I grew up in church and I hated every second of it.

1:10

A lot of drug use in my life. A lot of hurt.

1:14

Two years in rehab and then two years in Mississippi State Prison.

1:18

I thought my life was going to be an endless cycle of drugs and rehab and jail.

1:22

About a month before I did my wonderful stay in Mississippi State Penitentiary, I met Ashley.

1:28

And then the day after he left, I got door hangers to a church that he hated

1:33

so much that I needed to go find God for myself.

1:38

She really put some belief in me and waited a whole two years for me to come home.

1:44

From there, we started going to church together.

1:51

Welcome back to Jesus Loves Addicts. We're thrilled to be with you for another episode.

1:55

And our next guest, his bio is certainly good PR for recovery,

2:01

but I have to humorously say it reads a little bit like an old country joke that I heard.

2:06

And that is, what do you get when you play a country song backwards?

2:09

Well, you get your wife back, you get your dog back, you get your job back, you get where I'm going.

2:14

And it certainly fits with Justin Anderson.

2:18

His addiction took him through two years at Mississippi State Correctional Facility,

2:26

took him through over two years in and out of various treatment facilities.

2:31

He had to pay upwards of $7,000 in fines, all of that not necessarily in that order.

2:37

And then finally getting out of prison in April of last year, correct?

2:41

Yes, sir. And so whereas his, and here's the Job part, right?

2:46

Whereas his recovery journey thus far has included starting school for the first

2:50

time, and I might add, killing it.

2:53

He's started out with two classes. He's got a 4.0 so far, so congratulations there.

2:57

Getting full custody of a son back, getting married, and interestingly enough,

3:02

he got married a year to the day of getting out of prison, and I'm interested in hearing that story.

3:07

And he's an active member in his church, and I love this part,

3:10

just to show you the absolute 180 that anybody's life can encounter, right?

3:18

When you start to make better choices.

3:20

He is currently working at a specialized treatment facility,

3:23

helping others who have suffered trauma, mental health and behavioral issues,

3:28

and just finding fulfillment there.

3:32

And so I just really love that. We're also blessed today as a surprise to have

3:36

his wife, Ashley, with us, which I'm I'm excited about because,

3:39

as you know, addiction is not just the individual's.

3:43

Disease, illness, sin problem. It really affects the whole family.

3:48

So we're blessed to have Ashley with us to kind of talk about it from that perspective.

3:52

And so here we go. And just want to kind of invite you, Justin,

3:56

maybe to kind of start us off by telling us a little bit about your story.

4:00

I'm sure there's lots of gaps here to fill in. If anybody has one of recovery stories, sometimes they can be long,

4:06

fine rabbit holes, but really God has just worked a miracle in my life.

4:11

And growing up in church, I ran from it for a long time, but I found purpose

4:17

in my life now, and especially being able to use what I've gone through to better

4:21

help these kids growing up and really be who I needed at that age.

4:26

So you just mentioned church.

4:29

You mentioned kind of feeling like you were running from it.

4:31

And I heard you in your 32nd, you know, we do this little promo spot.

4:35

And as I was listening to you do that, you talked about hating every minute

4:38

of it and all that stuff. Can you talk a little bit about that?

4:41

Were you raised, was this a Christian home?

4:43

Was this, you know, what was the deal and what was the distaste? It was a Christian home.

4:49

And it really just, my distaste came during my teenage years.

4:53

You know, it's just seeing people one way at the church and when they get out,

4:57

it's completely different. And, you know, I was the same way myself. And I kind of resented myself for

5:02

that. And I pushed myself further away from the church.

5:07

Well, so your heart, if I can make that leap, was in the right place, right?

5:11

It's easy to see, and I know this word, this could be a whole discussion of

5:17

its own, we won't go down, but it's easy to see the hypocrisy almost in anything,

5:20

right? People are people, we're broken.

5:22

So you kind of saw that that kind of gave you a bad taste in your mouth for the church.

5:27

But at the end of the day, I was too focused on other people.

5:30

Like if I was focusing on myself, You know, I probably would have been there

5:35

for better reasons than that and realized that I don't have it all together

5:38

and try to get help for where I am falling short, you know. Yeah.

5:43

And it took me later in life, you know, it took me going through the hard stuff.

5:48

To really realize every time I'm going through that hard stuff,

5:51

I am praying pretty hard, you know? And there came a time in my life where I

5:54

was so scared I was going to get arrested again.

5:57

And I was about to say that same prayer, but I just stopped,

5:59

you know, and let your will be done in my life, you know? And I wasn't perfect from then on.

6:05

Right. But that kind of started these little changes. Are you now? Heck yeah. No.

6:11

I'm like Paul, man, in the Bible. You're like Paul in this chair.

6:15

Not perfect, I can tell you. Well, can you tell us more about,

6:19

so you didn't go from church as a teen, like what happened then?

6:24

Yeah, I started working at 15, so I didn't have to go to church on Sundays.

6:28

And then, you know, at 26, I

6:30

realized I had a crippling drug addiction to crack cocaine and methadone.

6:33

And I got some help, went to Home Grace for the first time.

6:37

So let me pause you there because you didn't just wake up one day and have this

6:41

crippling addiction, right? Where did that begin for you? It really began with, you know,

6:45

at my teenage years, I dabbled in cocaine.

6:48

Then that upgraded to crack. And then during the, I guess, the pill epidemic, I was a bartender.

6:54

And so I got addicted to oxycodone and then coming off that with the methadone.

6:59

And so towards the end of that addiction with alcohol, you know,

7:03

I was trying to detox before I came to Home of Grace.

7:06

And that's when I ended up drinking hand sanitizer, rubbing alcohol because

7:10

I couldn't find no alcohol. And that was a common, that was a common end to my addiction cycles was always

7:18

like household chemicals, like anything to kill my own awareness.

7:22

You know, it was very insecure. I didn't want to be alone.

7:26

Yeah. You know. You said you dabbled in cocaine in high school.

7:31

Was that the gateway one for you or did it start prior to that or something else?

7:35

I really believe the gateway was just, you know, weed, cigarettes,

7:40

really cigarettes. Because I started cigarettes and, you know, internet stuff.

7:44

I mean, like, to me, it's really all connected.

7:47

It's all sin problem. You know,

7:49

we just upgrade it a lot because we can't get enough of it sometimes.

7:53

You're right. And God just really changed my heart, though. I mean,

7:57

that's the only thing. It ain't nothing I did. Yeah, well, amen. Yeah.

8:01

So there's a whole lot between dabbling with cocaine in high school and God

8:08

changing your heart, right? What was that story like? So here you are, you're in high school.

8:15

There's lots of years to go for you, right? How long were you in the throes of your addiction?

8:19

Well, at 17, a friend of mine committed suicide in front of me.

8:26

Me and three other people were at the house, and I was on house arrest at the

8:30

time, so I was really scared and I was the only one with a car, so we left him.

8:34

And one after another, one of the kids called their mom and I was the last one to call mine.

8:40

Everybody was crying. I didn't realize. I was in shock.

8:43

We ended up going back to the house and of course the kid Brian had ended up

8:47

dying and it was very traumatic. And from then on at 17, I really felt like I was being haunted by him.

8:54

And that just every time I would drink, those kind of feelings would come out.

8:58

A lot of PTSD, if you want to call it that.

9:02

And I was always really afraid of being in the dark after that.

9:06

And I would use alcohol and a lot of drugs, anything I can, just to not be conscious, I guess.

9:13

Right. To not really deal with that and to not really tell anybody,

9:18

really, that I was struggling as bad as I was. I don't want to get into the gory details, but was it an overdose?

9:27

Was it a more- No, it was a .357 snub nose. Okay, he shot himself. Yeah.

9:32

The last thing he said is, we drink out of pots now. And he was 18.

9:36

They didn't have no clean dishes in the house. We were using and everything, but nothing really.

9:44

Had us ready for that. And the one thing, you heard the big gunshot,

9:49

you know, but it was the sound that like, it sounds like somebody pouring milk on the ground.

9:53

And that, just that whole cycle. And I went home that night and I turned my

9:58

TV to static for some reason. And I was like, Brian, I don't know why you did that, but I hope you're in a better place.

10:04

And I don't know if it was my mind or the demons or whatever,

10:07

but I just saw like a screaming face in that static.

10:10

And then it zapped away. And then from then on, I saw the number 9-11 everywhere like that.

10:16

And to me, for a long time, I thought it was the date he killed himself on 9-11.

10:22

But just recently, you know, I'm thinking is that 9-1-1, like part of me really

10:26

felt ashamed that I didn't have the courage to call 9-1-1 and put somebody else

10:31

before myself because I was worried I was going to get in trouble.

10:35

Now after going through prison and rehab over and over and over again,

10:40

not scared anymore to do the right

10:42

thing because my the way i thought it just had the wrong thing going up for

10:47

me every day yeah and it's weird that we talk about it now because a lot of

10:51

times we don't realize the things that's really hitting us sure how does it

10:55

feel to talk about it feels good now and it's just the whole process of going

10:59

to school you know i went to school my first.

11:02

Assignment for psychology class was a stanford prison experiment and i didn't

11:06

realize how much prison affected me, you know, and then just taking that journey

11:09

and starting a school, being faithful, you know, to my wife,

11:13

I've been able to get the help I needed, you know, and I've been able to work

11:17

on things I need to work on in myself, you know, and it's good.

11:21

How old were you when that happened? I was 17.

11:24

17. Okay. Have you been, and you're how old now?

11:27

I'm 34 now. 34. Have you been able to forgive yourself of what you were punishing

11:34

yourself for, even if it's not? It's so good because where I work, I can actively forgive myself every day by

11:41

doing more for these kids, by putting myself in their shoes, in their trauma.

11:47

It doesn't matter what they did. I'm capable of anything.

11:49

You know, I'm capable of anything they've done. I've just done different. Yeah.

11:54

Did you ever talk about it with the other guys that were there that night?

12:01

No. It was almost like a stand-by-me moment, you know.

12:05

You see the railroad tracks, and you don't see each other again.

12:08

It was only after I started making those steps to try to help.

12:13

Taking those steps in my life, that I reached out to them to see if they were still affected by this.

12:19

And one was, real bad. And he reached out saying, I don't know why I do think about it all the time.

12:26

But I was able to talk to him. I haven't been able to see him,

12:29

but I do try. I send him a message.

12:32

But I can always do more.

12:36

So you talked about after that,

12:40

Was some of the use, the drug use, the alcohol use, it sounded like it was almost

12:45

self-medicating, that memory. It was. And I didn't realize that I was trying to self-medicate, you know, but I was.

12:52

You would use different things to try to go to sleep and try to be up or try

12:56

to have this certain mood that you have to portray, especially when working

12:59

in the service industry. You had to be chipper.

13:03

But it was just trying to regulate and cope. And I found that at the end of

13:08

the day, if I didn't have anything, I would find something, like a household chemical.

13:13

And that's where it really showed me where my addiction goes.

13:16

It doesn't matter what it is. Like, I couldn't stand to be sober. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

13:23

You had mentioned that at the beginning of that story that you were,

13:27

did you say you were on probation? I was on house arrest. On house arrest. Okay. So there was already.

13:33

Yeah. I had a burglary of a church charge. And was that related to your use?

13:40

Yeah, we took a bunch of Xanax bars and then tried to go to this cow field to find mushrooms.

13:45

And there was a church right next to it, Campground Baptist Church. Sorry, Campground.

13:49

But we broke into their shed area where they kept basketballs.

13:54

We stole a bunch of basketballs. But they had caught us as soon as we were leaving, you know,

13:59

and I got charged as an adult. That was the first time I went to Harrison County. And I got a year of house

14:05

arrest and then a year of diversion probation, which I paid for.

14:09

And I, thank God, completed.

14:12

You completed both? I completed it and paid restitution, did everything I needed to do.

14:18

And so I didn't have that. So you got off of that and you didn't stay sober.

14:24

So once that box was checked and you were off the diversion, what happened?

14:30

I was bartending. Then I started collecting DUIs. One after another, they don't fall off.

14:36

So I collected DUI and then another one and then another one.

14:40

I had three. I spent time in jail.

14:43

Spent time in rehab because I really wanted help. I just couldn't stop.

14:48

I couldn't stop no matter what. I just felt like that was the way it was.

14:53

And I would try different things. And I would try working out and thought that

14:57

was the thing or try this, try that. But at the end of the day,

15:00

I would always end up falling on my face. It was just a matter of time. Did you have family supportive?

15:07

I did. My parents are very, they're Christian. They're supportive in a way.

15:12

But sometimes, you know, we can be a sinner or a Pharisee is what I see sometimes.

15:19

And sometimes, you know, my parents are so good to me.

15:22

I cannot say anything bad about them, but it's very hard for them to put themselves in an addict's shoes.

15:28

They would never take the step to go to an Al-Anon or go and talk to somebody about this.

15:33

And I really do think when raising your children, to be honest with them.

15:37

You know, there's things that if we can be honest about our struggles,

15:41

then maybe our children can realize, well, maybe it is.

15:45

Everybody struggles, you know. I realized I thought I was weak.

15:49

I thought there was something wrong with me that I struggled.

15:51

And why couldn't I get it together? Well, I'm the only one in my family

15:55

that struggles with drug addiction or alcoholism. It was that not true?

15:59

In my immediate family, it is true. But in my extended family,

16:03

it is not. Yeah, there's lots. My biological dad, Saad, you know, actually, I didn't know him growing up,

16:11

but I met him through a relationship while I was in prison.

16:14

And I got a lot of death on that side of the family from drug use and bad choices. Mm-hmm.

16:22

Well, and even if it's not drugs and alcohol, the reality is we all struggle with something, right?

16:27

So even though it may not have been to kind of... It is, you know, and it starts so early.

16:33

You know, for me, the first sin that you really start, you know,

16:38

is just looking at stuff you shouldn't look at for myself.

16:41

And it's taken me so long to come to the end of that.

16:47

That and really took me making that vow to my wife and really telling her that

16:52

I know you're a gift of God's grace in my life and I'm not going to forget that.

16:58

And something in me is just kind of turned away from that first addiction that was so hard.

17:03

And I think doing that has really, you know, once you start doing something, you can lead by example.

17:08

And if I'm doing the right thing, then I can, I can actually tell you,

17:12

and I can actually say, this is working for me. and I can tell you it's true

17:16

and the evidence in my life that God is real.

17:20

Yeah. And I'm assuming we're talking about pornography.

17:22

Yeah. And I didn't want to say it. I didn't know if I could. No, no. And I appreciate your honesty. I just wanted to put it because I know that's a big struggle.

17:29

Yeah. And, you know, it's a crippling thing, especially when you go to your

17:33

Mississippi State prison. You don't have no pornography, you know, and then you come out and it's everywhere.

17:40

And you're supposed to, you know, we got to, I just knew that was something

17:44

that would keep me away from my wife and God.

17:48

I knew that was something that was hard to stop. It almost seemed impossible.

17:52

But from the day we got married, I haven't looked at it. It's really,

17:56

it's amazing. Yeah. I feel happy. Amen.

18:00

Well, I appreciate you bringing that up because I think sometimes people try

18:06

to partition different addictions.

18:08

Like this is different. It's only different in substance,

18:12

but what's behind it is still seeking inappropriate or destructive means of

18:20

dealing with things that we could otherwise be doing constructively.

18:24

And so I appreciate you mentioning that. So that was all part and parcel to your addiction.

18:29

I would think so. So I just think it's just, you know, I would always go to

18:34

rehab and I felt like I was an endless cycle, but I wasn't giving up,

18:37

you know, and I would keep going. And I wasn't as bad as last time, I guess. You know, maybe I wasn't on crack cocaine anymore.

18:47

But when it comes to that, that last, that pornography, in my opinion, it does all connect.

18:53

Because, you know, it's like you give a little bit and give a little bit,

18:57

you know, and it's just going to go, you know. Yeah.

19:00

It's going to be like a dam that breaks loose, you know.

19:04

It's just a bad way, I think. And I couldn't respect her and treat her like

19:08

a gift that God gave me while I'm doing that, you know.

19:14

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21:01

So you're bringing in your wife's story, and I know from talking to you beforehand,

21:06

you guys met about a month before going to prison, right before you went to prison.

21:11

So how close are we to that point in your story at this point?

21:15

All right. So I had just gotten my fourth DUI, and I went to Mission of Hope

21:20

because it was free. I didn't have no money. But, you know, and I was in limbo. I knew I was probably going to have to do

21:27

a little bit of time, but I was really hoping God would get me out of this one.

21:31

And it was the wrong thought process. But when I started being honest, like on our second date, on our second date,

21:38

I told her the truth. You know, I said she seemed like a nice person.

21:42

I would love to get to know her, but I'm probably going to prison in a month.

21:46

I thought he was lying because that's what all I was used to.

21:51

I had family that wasn't supportive. I had a mother that was on drugs herself.

21:57

I have a dad that had a gambling and alcohol addiction.

22:02

Mixing that together, it's not good. So all I had, I didn't have Christian family that had it all together like he did.

22:11

I had people in my life that didn't have it together.

22:16

So I just thought he was somebody else lying to me that I cared about, that I barely knew.

22:24

But I was like, I'm just going to see how it goes. And sure enough, he did go.

22:32

And about, well, the day after he left, I got the door hangers from the church

22:38

he was telling me about that he went to that he didn't like.

22:42

But I took it as a sign that I need to work on myself to be a better mother for my kids.

22:48

You know, I didn't think I was a bad mom.

22:51

You know, I went to work. I took care of them. So you already had kids when

22:54

you met? Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Was that from a previous marriage,

22:58

a previous relationship? Previous relationship. Previous relationship?

23:01

Mm-hmm. Can I ask you, because you mentioned addiction in your own home,

23:06

what did you, and thank you for being here, Ashley, again, to give us this perspective,

23:11

right? Right. So what did you see as your role?

23:14

I'm going to ask, were you kind of a peacekeeper? Were you trying to,

23:18

were you the nurse of the family, right? Trying to keep everything together?

23:23

In a way, yeah. You know, I remember being in like third grade and my mother

23:29

was, she was overdosing on prescription pills.

23:34

She was, that's, that was her thing. She, you know, she was bringing me cigarettes

23:40

to smoke. I was in third grade.

23:43

Because she told me that's what guys

23:45

like. And I was like, I don't like it because I see what it does to her.

23:52

She smokes and, you know, she takes pills.

23:57

And I was like, God, no.

24:02

And I was like, no, Mom, but sure, I'll take it. And I ended up just throwing

24:06

it away, you know, because I didn't want to do it.

24:11

And did you feel more like mom in that relationship? Like, were you mothering your mom?

24:16

I was so young, you know, I just kind of. Maybe not at three,

24:20

but as you got older, did it feel like you took that third grade?

24:24

Yeah. And it's just like, how is somebody that's supposed to care about me want to do these things?

24:30

Was it just you or did you have siblings? I had a sister. She was she's five years younger than me.

24:35

And so she was, she was like only four,

24:40

you know, and because I was like, why would I want to smoke cigarettes or doing,

24:46

because she would burn me with the cigarettes and wax. Your mom. So.

24:53

And my dad, he was gone all the time, gambling. We moved a lot.

24:57

So I didn't really get to have a stable school.

25:01

But I would just like going to school because it felt safe. It was safe, you know.

25:08

But over the years, you know, with us moving so much, my dad came home one day.

25:16

And my mother locked him out of the room or something. and I remember there

25:22

being this big commotion or something and the next thing I know, we're in foster care.

25:28

Was it a violent home? Not really. It was just one time.

25:34

So you and your sister went into foster care where y'all kept together?

25:37

Not all the time. We were separated a lot.

25:41

How long were you in foster care? A year. That sounds like a year, okay.

25:44

Yeah, a year. and then we, my mother never tried to get better or get us back.

25:53

So my dad had to, my dad did all the counseling and parenting classes to get

25:59

us back, but he still struggled with alcohol and gambling and, you know.

26:07

And we came to live with my grandmother and when I was about sixth grade,

26:14

We were living in Florida at the time when I was in foster care because the

26:19

Hurricane Katrina took everything away.

26:23

And so, I don't know how we got to Florida, but we went to Florida.

26:29

But I was about, after a year in foster care, about fifth or sixth grade, we moved back.

26:36

Because my dad tried to get her to get off the prescription pills.

26:42

They remained married? They were still married.

26:45

I was so young to remember, but it's just, it was hard. because all I remember

26:51

as a child was moving so much, foster care.

26:56

You know, the things my mother did to me.

27:00

You know, they didn't care if I went to school. I always ride my bike to get

27:05

to school just so I could get somewhere safe because, you know,

27:10

my mother wasn't feeding me. She wasn't doing the things a mother should do.

27:16

And it was real hurtful to have to realize at a young age and have to feel like you have to grow up.

27:24

You know, I didn't have anybody to be a positive role model in my life.

27:31

I wanted to be who I wanted to be and to be better, to do better.

27:38

I wanted to set the example for my own children how I wanted to be, you know.

27:45

Were you and your sister close? I mean, we were close because we were all we had.

27:52

But, you know, as we get older and we start having kids and she moved far,

27:58

we try to keep a communication. We still talk about, you know,

28:02

how we grew up because it kind of just makes us feel better to talk about it. Sure.

28:07

And feel safe to talk about it with each other.

28:11

Did either of you get into drugs or alcohols? Neither one. Wow,

28:15

that's great. Right. I mean, you know.

28:19

And, yeah, I didn't know God. Yeah. I didn't know He was,

28:22

but He seemed like this spiritual thing

28:27

in the room that I could just talk to when nobody's around and just get it all

28:34

out and just let all this scary and mean things going on in our life, just let it go.

28:45

So he seemed like a safe, understanding person just for spirit to talk to,

28:51

you know, and I would write things down just so I can get it, just get it off my head,

28:58

just get it off my mind that I have a mother that is on prescription pills and

29:04

a dad that has a gambling and alcohol problem.

29:09

And it wasn't always bad.

29:12

It just got worse as I got older. And maybe it's because he didn't have the

29:18

right person that was supportive for him.

29:22

But it's, you know, as I get older, you know, it's, I can't, I couldn't let anybody,

29:33

you know, stop me, like, offering me cigarettes.

29:38

I had kids offering me cigarettes when I became a teenager.

29:41

I already knew what it did. I didn't like it.

29:45

I've already seen what it could do to your lungs, you know, prescription pills.

29:52

I didn't want to take something I didn't know what it was going to do or how

29:55

it was going to affect me. Why would somebody that's supposed to love and care about me want me to take

30:01

something that's not good for me? Yeah, yeah.

30:06

Well, unfortunately, one of the byproducts of addiction is kind of irrational thinking, right?

30:10

So it's not that they're consciously wanting that. It's that they're in a state

30:13

where they don't know any better, right? It's just, it's not clear thinking.

30:18

But it's funny, we just talked about this in our devotion. But,

30:21

you know, these slogans that get passed around and there's truth and error to them.

30:25

But one that comes to mind as you speak is that hurt people hurt people, right?

30:29

And it's, yeah, so it's kind of one of those things. But, you know, you mentioned that.

30:34

So Justin goes to treatment and lo and behold, these door hangers show up for

30:42

this church. And what struck you was, hey, maybe I need to get the help I need.

30:47

Yeah. And so what did that look like for you?

30:50

Did you did you have opportunity to work through kind of some of what you're talking about here?

30:55

Yeah, because I, you know, like I said, I had children with somebody else who

31:01

was abusive and just emotionally abusive, too.

31:07

Always try to get my head and make me think I'm just this terrible person.

31:11

And for a long time, I believed it.

31:15

Sure. And it took that step of leaving and being in an apartment with a broken couch, a TV,

31:27

and an air mattress with my two kids with nothing.

31:34

But I had nothing, but I felt like I could breathe better.

31:41

And I had no family. I mean, I had my sister that I talked to,

31:47

but I didn't have help with my kids from family.

31:51

I had friends, but I just- How old were you and your kids at that point?

31:59

My, Caden was, I believe, six or seven at the time.

32:04

And then Luca was just a baby. So you had a full plate. Yeah, I had a full plate.

32:11

I wouldn't even say that. I had a lot, but it wasn't anything that I couldn't have handled.

32:20

Yeah. You know, because I felt like I've already gone through the worst throughout

32:26

my entire life up until that point.

32:29

You know, and when I started seeing Justin, we took it really slow.

32:34

And that month, we just talked and just got to know each other. And, you know.

32:41

That's all there is to anyone who's a part of this. I thought he was lying,

32:44

you know, because that's what I'm used to.

32:47

But I said, we're just going to take it one day at a time. That's all we can do.

32:52

And the day after he left, I got the door hangers from his church.

32:56

And I took it as a sign that I needed to work on myself because I was hurting from my childhood.

33:03

I was hurting from my kid's dad. I was hurting myself, and I wasn't ready,

33:12

and I wasn't the one that needed prison or rehab or anything like that.

33:17

And you were just as broken. I was just as broken, and I didn't have anything

33:22

to kind of numb that pain.

33:28

The only way I was able to get through it was to keep going.

33:33

It is remarkable. Remarkable, you know, you said that line, I didn't have anything to numb my pain.

33:38

And it is remarkable to me that neither you or your sister did end up in something.

33:44

But in some ways, there was something numbing your pain.

33:47

And that was the way you beat up on yourself, the way that you bought the lies, right? Mm-hmm.

33:55

There are things that you're talking about that make sense coming from your

33:59

history, right? The fact that you would get involved with somebody who was abusive makes sense.

34:03

You were trained for it in your childhood, right? You already had those lies that you bought.

34:07

And so all of that kind of makes sense. And that can be numbing, right?

34:11

When we kind of beat ourselves up day in and day out, it kind of serves the

34:16

same purpose in some ways, right? But interestingly, you guys, I'm going to hazard a guess that you share a piece

34:24

of that brokenness. Because, Justin, you said just a minute ago,

34:28

you said, I told her you don't want any of this. So where did that come from, right? That comes from. It's me trying to be honest.

34:33

Yeah, but where does that statement, you don't want any of this, come from?

34:37

Being honest with myself, knowing myself, knowing the way I treat people. And I have always.

34:43

Like, how have I treated people? I've lied to them. You know,

34:47

and I'll look at somebody and tell them one thing is completely opposite.

34:50

I won't be the same person in the dark that I am around other people. Right.

34:55

And I didn't live that out. I didn't have any integrity.

34:59

So you had the same hole about who you were, right?

35:03

So you guys shared this image of... Insecure. Yeah, well and worse,

35:08

right? Just that we don't. And I know there's redemption in your story. So what I'm saying now is kind of my observation.

35:16

You guys tell me if I'm right or wrong. You know, Ashley, one of the things

35:19

that I would hazard a guess that you saw in him when you first met that attracted

35:24

you to him was his brokenness, was the fact that you found another fixer-upper,

35:30

right? Because that's what you were built for.

35:33

And I say that. We go to what's familiar. We have a pattern. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

35:37

Yes, we don't go towards what's healthy. We go towards what's familiar, unfortunately, right?

35:41

We have to intentionally go to what's healthy, and we have to learn that process.

35:46

Before we learn that, we migrate to what's familiar.

35:49

And so part of what you saw in Justin, and again, you correct me if I'm wrong,

35:53

is again, probably the brokenness. And you saw an opportunity to fix, right? Right.

36:01

Would it be true to say that there's a part of you that only feels as good as

36:05

you are able to help others?

36:07

Like if I'm fixing somebody, I feel good.

36:10

Maybe that's your comfort zone.

36:14

I guess for a long time it was like I want to fix it, but now I just kind of,

36:19

when I see somebody hurting, I just talk to them. Just listen.

36:24

Now you don't try to take it to fix it. I don't try to just fix it for them, make it easy on them.

36:30

I just tell them my own experiences and what's helped me, you know? Yeah.

36:36

Amen. Right? I mean, wow. Because there's the other side of your illness, your part of the illness,

36:43

that codependence, right? That part where I need to fix to this part where I don't need to fix.

36:48

I can just share and let God do what God does.

36:51

So I love that, right? That's freedom, right? And you said something earlier.

36:56

You said, and this was before you were fully well, but it's applicable here.

37:00

You said, I felt like I, even in this broken down apartment with not,

37:04

I felt like I could breathe better. Right. And once we get to this place where we don't have to fix,

37:09

we feel like we can breathe better. Would that be fair to say?

37:12

Yes. So how did you guys meet? Hmm.

37:15

Christianmingle.com just kidding

37:19

Planet Fitness Planet Fitness Planet Fitness yeah

37:21

we met at the gym you know she was broken and

37:25

that was something that threw me off too because she had a lot of stuff going

37:28

on and I knew it would be crazy for us to get involved with each other with

37:34

me have two years of prison I know what beats people up in prison it's yourself

37:38

thinking what she's doing or what's going on and that's just the way it is,

37:43

but But she really took a chance on me.

37:47

She really, I mean, there was nothing I could have said to make her believe

37:51

how I was going to do when I got home. And I knew that and she knew that. But she really believed in me.

37:56

And that's something that happens, I think, when somebody really does,

38:00

you know, really does believe in you.

38:02

And I think God's in the details of all that, you know.

38:05

And the same church, we at it now.

38:09

And we don't have to go to church. We get to go to church. And it's amazing, you know. That's good.

38:17

Before we go any further, let's take a minute to address the man or the woman

38:21

listening to today's episode and wishing for a better life.

38:24

Or maybe addiction has completely overtaken a family member or a friend.

38:28

You are not alone. As you may know, the Jesus Loves Addicts podcast is produced

38:32

by the Home of Grace, a Christ-centered addiction recovery program in South

38:36

Mississippi with over 60 years of experience.

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The Home of Grace has residential programs ranging from 30 days to 12 months.

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39:31

So you were going to, you started going to church. I started going to church.

39:35

I didn't go religiously. I mean, I just kind of started tiptoeing in it,

39:40

getting the feel for it because this is a huge church.

39:43

You know, and just slowly just little people just introduced themselves to me.

39:48

And I just started getting to know more people.

39:51

And I tried to go into a community group, but it was just me.

39:55

You know, I look like a single mom. It's kind of hard to explain.

39:59

Oh, you know, I'm waiting on my guy in prison, you know, that's why I ain't

40:04

seen nobody you know and I,

40:09

And it was just married couples in the room and I'm in like kind of like just by myself.

40:15

Yeah. Like I have been while he was waiting, while I was waiting.

40:20

And, you know, all I could do when he was gone was just work on myself.

40:26

Right. That's all I could do. And while you were doing that, he was. I was fighting off big dudes.

40:33

I was like, get out of here. No, I was working on myself. of. What was that like for you?

40:40

You know, it wasn't always making the right decision, but it was,

40:43

it meant when I was wrong, you know, if I treated somebody wrong, I admitted it.

40:48

I tried to, I didn't want to, I wanted to get respect. You got to be a good person.

40:53

And honestly, I had found a little bitty booklet while I was in Rankin County processing.

40:58

And it was, it was very insightful. And it talks about a lot of the times you

41:03

have the wrong mentality when you go to prison. You want people to fear you and all that. And that's not cool.

41:09

You know, people respect people. And when you are somebody worthy of respect,

41:13

you want to lead, people are going to follow you.

41:15

And most of the time, people are going to follow what they see as righteous,

41:18

no matter what. If you do the right thing, people see that.

41:21

And if you're doing the right thing, when somebody's going to hit you,

41:24

if you do the right thing, somebody's going to hit you, who cares?

41:29

You need to do the right thing. And people see that, and they'll follow that,

41:33

and they'll gravitate towards that. And also prayer call helps a lot in prison you

41:37

know it don't matter what people think of you go to prayer call

41:40

for yourself you know and that helped me a lot in her

41:43

phone calls she made eight uh 14 eight hour round visits to come see me for

41:50

three hours you know and it was it was amazing to have you know just to see

41:56

that like somebody could sacrifice for you right and now in my life Like,

42:02

I know what I'm supposed to do because if I'm putting others before myself,

42:05

I'm doing the right thing. Yeah. You know, and this is something trivial from yesterday morning,

42:10

making my eggs and not making hers. You know, that's something that's so small, you know, but to put others before

42:16

yourself, you know when you need to do that. It's all the time.

42:20

I am curious, what was your first thought when she told you which church she was going to? Yeah.

42:25

Black Memorial. I'm so bad.

42:28

I'm so bad because I don't want to turn people away from stuff because I felt

42:32

like it was really pushed on me growing up. And I really want people to try to find their own way.

42:37

So I didn't really have a negative, I'll try to tell her a negative opinion

42:40

on it or a positive opinion on it. I was just so scared to leave the recovery class from when I started going back

42:49

to church after recovery. I never wanted to meet people. I wanted to stay in the same recovery class with

42:54

the same people, you know, because that's where I felt safe. Safe people.

42:59

And just thank God, you know, that when I got out of prison,

43:02

I had somebody there for me who was willing to take that step for community.

43:06

Yeah. Because that, if I can tell you anything in my life, it's community.

43:10

It has to be the people around you. You know, that's what's going to get you

43:15

through the most things. If a tornado hits, I know where I'm going. We're going to church with our community.

43:20

You know, it starts right there, I think. for us anyway.

43:24

So good. Never had that. I hated community growing up. Yeah, because we were seen.

43:32

So that two years was a really interesting time for you guys, right?

43:36

Because I hear you individually both saying, I was working on me,

43:39

I was working on me, but you also had this relationship you were working on, right?

43:43

So there were three entities you guys were working on, right?

43:46

Ashley, Justin, and this relationship. Yeah. What was that like? I mean, how did that... A lot of communication and no bad phone calls.

43:54

No. We never argued because it would have just made me dread picking up the phone.

44:00

I read it in that little pamphlet I found. It said, make all your phone calls easy.

44:05

It's not them that's in prison, it's you. Yeah.

44:08

But really being honest with her and being truthful about everything in communication.

44:14

In other relationships, I just jumped in most time in the physical. Yeah.

44:18

You know, that's what you do most of the time. You'll jump into the physical.

44:21

And then once that dies, what do you have?

44:24

Nothing. So what we did is writing letters because COVID was a lot of solitary confinement.

44:30

Couldn't talk on the phone. A lot of letters. Then progressed to phone calls.

44:34

Then progressed to finally getting to see her after a year.

44:37

And then progressed to another visit. And then progressed to her coming to this

44:41

place and us running out the front gate and going home, you know.

44:45

And from a year, I got out on 420.

44:50

So I got out on 420. That is funny. The year to the day of 420,

44:55

we were able to get married. So you were the newlyweds. Yeah. We didn't want to get married in prison because

45:02

to me, it's just, that's how we felt.

45:04

We needed to be able to get out and, you know, with our children,

45:08

have this happen naturally. I never wanted, she was there for my son when I was gone. and only God made

45:14

a way that for I was to, I had all these people in my life to keep the custody of my son.

45:20

It's only God. Yeah. Do all of, just a side note, because you both had children

45:26

coming in, do they all get along? Yes. Do they? We go on adventures. All kinds of adventures.

45:31

We're only outside. Y'all have all of them with y'all. Yeah.

45:35

Always outside. It wears them out. So I hear this journey for both of you. That's clearly a

45:43

spiritual, psychological, emotional journey that you're both on.

45:50

And I'm curious, because where did the moment that you thought,

45:55

I don't even know how to ask this question, that, you know what,

45:59

God is the relationship I'm missing. Where did that become important to you both?

46:04

Because it's clearly important to you both at this point.

46:07

I think for me, it was when I had nothing.

46:10

That's who I had to look up to. Prior to when I was gone. It was while he was in prison.

46:17

You know, all the times like when my ex was hurting me, you know,

46:21

my mother being how she was, my dad, you know, I remember going to vacation

46:28

Bible school all the time because it was free.

46:31

We had no money. You know, and I would hear about God, you know,

46:38

but I didn't understand him.

46:40

And you were there for the donuts and games, right? I was there for the donuts, games, free food.

46:46

But, you know, I think I had to go through all that to kind of get me to this

46:53

point with Justin because...

46:57

When I saw those door hangers, I knew he was listening. Yeah.

47:01

And he wanted me to actually really, instead of asking him to get me out of

47:08

this home, get me out of this relationship, he wanted me to, oh, know him and not ask him to do something for me.

47:17

It was just, just understand me.

47:20

When you say know him, you're talking about God, right? He just wanted you to, yeah, amen.

47:25

Amen. You know, and I mean, that's all I could do. I had a broken couch.

47:31

I had nothing to do, you know, and I knew drugs and alcohol and gambling.

47:37

That wasn't going to fix me. It didn't fix my family.

47:40

So why would I go down that path?

47:44

When me and Justin met, I was going to the gym because, you know,

47:47

it's good for your health, I think. And even if it takes forever,

47:52

at least I'm starting the gym.

47:56

And, you know, school might take a long time, even with two classes,

48:01

but I'm starting, you know. So you're both doing that. You're both engaging in that. Yeah.

48:06

So you have these parallel journeys going on, right? And so for you,

48:10

too, it happened while you were in jail during the same two years, that moment?

48:14

It really happened when I got out, you know, because I was just,

48:17

I didn't know what I was going to do, you know. I didn't know how you were going

48:21

to be. I didn't know how I was going to be. But, you know, just it's really the kids at work.

48:28

And really when I started, I took something personal.

48:31

A kid called me a sweet boy in B word after that.

48:36

And I was fresh out of prison. I don't know why they let me come back to work.

48:39

But it really, I took offense to it. I took it personal. And he's a kid.

48:44

And I didn't even go back to the pod. I went to the girl. I didn't work there

48:47

the next day. Let me just tell you that. that I waited a day and I came in.

48:51

The next day I came in, I see him at the window. He was so ready to tell me sorry and all this.

48:56

And it made me feel so bad. It's like, he shouldn't be needing to tell me sorry.

49:00

If I'm a Christian, like I'm meant to handle this kind of stuff.

49:04

And then I seen the need for me, my purpose.

49:08

Like I can do this. I can be this person for them. I can handle it.

49:13

And then I just, when you know, in my heart, my soul, it's like,

49:19

I know when I'm on the right path, when I'm on God's path.

49:22

And it's just so good. I know it now. And it's something that I can't describe,

49:28

but you can only see it work out in your life.

49:31

And you see it when you talk, it's different. When you walk, it's different.

49:34

When you're dealing with people and you can really put them before yourself

49:38

truly, you know, and it's so good.

49:42

And that's God's love. That ain't me.

49:45

And, you know, just for her to believe that I could do that or her to believe

49:50

I could change, I could be something different than I was.

49:53

You know really truly believe that yeah it was

49:57

good because i got a bunch of letters when i was like i don't know

49:59

how i'm gonna be and she said i believe in you and now i tell the

50:02

kids i believe in you and i do right and i know you're gonna be bad tomorrow

50:07

and guess what it's okay you know it's all right you know as long as we learn

50:10

from it it don't matter what we're going we're gonna get through it she's a

50:15

blessing though and i think for me for some people you need to have that like

50:20

Like Paul says in the Bible, you know, it's good for you to be single, but if you can't, you need to find

50:24

a helper. You need to find somebody. And to be evenly yoked with somebody and to be on the right path is just something

50:32

I never thought I'd find in life. I thought I'd go through that cycle of suffering. And that was it.

50:38

Well, you are challenging me, my friend. My wife is out there somewhere going,

50:43

boy, I hope Paul's listening. So I get excited about it because it's tangible. And you see when you see a

50:50

need for something, for men to step into these roles with kids, you know, teenagers.

50:57

Who did we need at 17 years old? Who did I need when I was robbing that church

51:01

at 17 years old? Who did I need when my friend killed himself?

51:05

Who did I need? I need me right now. I needed this guy to come and tell me it's going to be all right.

51:10

Don't tell me don't give up now because good things are coming for you.

51:15

You just wait on the Lord. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I got good things. I have a life now.

51:21

I have a 4.0 GPA, and I used to huff gasoline in my dad's shed.

51:25

When does that happen? Never. It's amazing. That's God, ain't me.

51:31

Can I just say I love the passion? Yeah.

51:35

I love it. That's just fantastic, man.

51:39

It's just so good because when I'm with the kids at work, and you don't know

51:43

what you're going to say when a kid's freaking out, and he's so mad and righteously

51:47

because he has two people he can call and both are social workers.

51:51

You have, I mean, I know you're upset,

51:54

And it's terrible. But all the crap we go through, those hard times,

51:59

the prison, the terrible times, the having two social workers on your phone

52:03

list and not your mom and not your daddy.

52:06

Those are the hard times. And they're breeding you for something more.

52:10

And you're going to be able to help somebody with this.

52:13

I have a certain kind of thorn called addiction. I can maybe help some folks with addiction.

52:18

But there's other things that I do not know how to help people with because

52:22

I do not struggle with that at all. And I cannot comprehend how it is struggling with those kinds of sins.

52:27

Like you said, for her, I can only imagine the sin of having to have somebody,

52:34

having to have somebody to feel whole, you know?

52:38

And for her to be left alone for those two years and for God to fill that hole

52:42

for her while I was gone. It's just amazing.

52:46

It's good. God is good all the time. Yeah.

52:52

Well, and the reality, too, is that, and I know this concept,

52:55

I guess it's just one of these things that I hear sometimes,

52:58

and I kind of want to break this idea, right?

53:01

You said, I can help somebody with addiction because you've been through it. Amen.

53:04

You can. But it's not true that you can't help anybody that you haven't been

53:08

through it. In fact, you are, right? You're with these kids. You haven't been through everything they've been through,

53:12

right? You're already doing it because help doesn't come from experience.

53:16

Help comes from God, right? Help comes from the one who knows it all anyway.

53:21

And so if we're subject to him and humbled to him, then we are accessible to

53:27

anybody who needs help, really. That's so good.

53:29

It is. And you're doing it. I love it. I'm so happy.

53:32

Amen, brother. I can actually say that, that hope, you know,

53:35

that scripture has been played in my life.

53:38

Romans 5, 4 through 5, rejoice in your suffering.

53:42

Because out of suffering produces endurance, and out of endurance produces character,

53:46

and out of character produces hope, you know, and to finally get that hope at

53:50

the end that was fleeting me for so long.

53:54

It's just been so good. You know, it's good.

53:57

Well, let me ask you a question, because you guys are in a springtime of your lives, right?

54:02

You guys are newlyweds to each other.

54:06

You're kind of new to your faith, right? And there's lots of springtime stuff

54:11

here. Man, I love that. I'm envious of that. I'm jealous of that.

54:14

I love that. Because there's a unique passion that I think happens in those

54:19

years that you need to be more intentional as time goes on to regain.

54:25

But in the midst of that, what have been the struggles? What have been the difficulties?

54:30

What have been the hurdles? And how have you handled those differently?

54:34

I felt like... What we always said is no matter how bad things get, nothing's worse than prison.

54:43

There is perspective.

54:45

And a lot of communication and compromise. And, you know, whenever I see he,

54:52

you know, he gets stressed out about school,

54:55

you know, or just different things like just making a phone call for an appointment

55:00

or something, you know, just.

55:03

I'll tell you the one key is her money. is her money, my money is her money,

55:07

and our money is her money. And that's how we get it.

55:12

But the springtime is good. And the best thing about it is just the family that

55:18

we felt we wanted, you know, growing up.

55:22

If you have a blended family or if you've been through anything like that,

55:26

you can cultivate your family, be what you want it to be.

55:30

So good, you know and we have our kids are gonna argue but it's amazing you

55:35

know we have our kids and we get to discipline them not out of anger you know

55:39

but out of love yeah and lead by example and that's the only way I think it works you know,

55:45

but she's is she's just so good she's good

55:48

to me and she she really took that step

55:51

first because I don't think I would have been good to her

55:54

if I didn't go to to prison for two years and have to really

55:58

go through all that beauty from ashes it's

56:01

he turns them curses he turns them around and it's good every time i'm telling

56:07

you so somebody's out there listening some young couple some individual struggling

56:13

they're listening to your story what do you want their takeaway to be don't give up never.

56:20

Never give up. It doesn't matter. I mean, like I'm 34 and I'm starting school.

56:24

I don't care if I do two classes. I'll be like 70 if I get a degree,

56:28

but I'm so happy to be going through the journey.

56:30

We just don't give up. Your life's never over. It doesn't matter.

56:34

I mean, and if it is, thank the Lord we're going home. And I think God really does.

56:39

He has a plan for us. He really does. He's going to let you do your plan for

56:43

a while, but he'll always change it for you. Just don't Don't give up.

56:47

I don't care if you got to get a million blue chips and celebrate recovery or

56:51

AA or you have to go to church just to walk out.

56:54

Just keep trying. It don't matter.

56:57

Just keep going. I drank Listerine in the church bathroom. I'm going to say

57:01

that, but I was in there. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you, no matter how many chips you've got to pick up,

57:08

I think that people need to hear that more.

57:11

I don't care if you've got to pick up a 24-hour chip every day for the next

57:15

three months, but at least you're showing up and you're picking up the chip

57:18

because one day if you keep doing that, you're going to pick up your 30, your 60, your 90.

57:22

And churches need y'all in them community groups because we need people to be

57:27

honest about what they're going through because so many times people in the

57:31

community group and they're like, man, I'm the only one in here that looks at

57:34

weird stuff online or anything. I'm the only one in here that does that or mean to people or hateful. I cussed at somebody.

57:41

I don't think nobody in church does that, but it's a lot.

57:44

You know, everybody, we all fall short. The enemy uses that,

57:47

though. He tells everybody, you're the worst one. You better not mention that out loud.

57:51

Ooh, don't tell them about that. But every single time you do,

57:54

you hear someone else say, oh, thank God, me too.

57:59

I'm not alone. We're not alone with anything. These struggles we go through.

58:04

I've never had an abortion because I'm a guy.

58:07

I've had a girl call me for an abortion.

58:10

And I didn't tell her not to get one. I didn't tell her to get one.

58:15

I've aborted. You know, that's me. I've done that same thing. Any of that.

58:19

Like, that's what's so, I mean, it's also, it's hurtful.

58:23

You know, it's a polar, all of it's so polarized. And a lot of it,

58:27

these certain issues will keep us away from each other. You know?

58:31

I don't know if I even should have said that.

58:34

You know, I love that you said it. And I love, and I know the part you're talking

58:39

about. And I love that you said all of it. Mm-hmm.

58:43

Topic for probably an entire podcast of its own is how do we,

58:47

and we'll kind of wrap it up here, but how do we make the church real again, right?

58:52

Because sadly, the secular side of AA and NA tends to do a better job relationally

58:58

than I think the church does. And so the church needs to get raw and real again and do what Christ called

59:04

us to do. And so I love your heart, my friend.

59:06

It's got to be the change that you want to see in the community.

59:10

We don't run away from church because it's broken, we dive into it.

59:14

And we'd be the first one to take that step. I was just about to say that.

59:18

I was just about to say that. Somebody has to be the first one to make the step.

59:23

Oh, that's the way it is. I know I did. Golly, like Jesus took a bunch of homeboys from some boats and changed the world.

59:31

Like these guys were not no high dollar looking dudes.

59:35

These were dudes, tax collectors, like the worst of everybody.

59:38

People that worked on boats and stuff, ain't nobody wanted to mess with them.

59:42

But he changed them. He does not call the qualified. He qualifies the called

59:46

when he gets you. Come on. It's so good. Guys, I am super grateful as always that you're here.

59:55

Ashley, what a blessing to have you here as well. A surprise and to give us that perspective.

1:00:00

Justin, again, I just want to say that your passion when you talk about the

1:00:04

recovered side of this, the recovery side of this, that journey,

1:00:10

I just, you see, you see Christ all over that. And so. It's the evidence.

1:00:15

Thank you. Amen. And, and guys, for those of you listening, you know,

1:00:19

once again, what a, what a blessing that we can all learn from.

1:00:23

Again, I step out of these with something every time.

1:00:26

I just want to say to echo their sentiment, don't give up. Don't give up.

1:00:30

As long as you have breath in your lungs, you have another opportunity.

1:00:34

And, and it's a real opportunity. Don't, don't, don't. Short.

1:00:40

Straw that. What am I trying to say? Don't shortchange that.

1:00:42

There's the phrase I'm looking for. Keep showing up. Keep going. Keep calling.

1:00:47

That's right. Listen, guys, we love you. Recovery World loves you.

1:00:51

Jesus loves you. And if you have a story to tell, we'd love to hear it.

1:00:56

Jesuslovesaddicts.com. Please jump on there. Give us your feedback.

1:01:00

Ask your questions. Tell us your story. People need to hear it. So thank you so much. We'll see you next time.