0:00

Thanks for being here! Hello

0:34

and welcome to Behind the News! My name

0:36

is Doug Henwood, a return to heresy today,

0:38

just one guest, someone who's been on this

0:40

show many times before, Janus Varafakis. Janus

0:43

first appeared on Behind the News in

0:46

2008, discussing economic crisis and popular unrest

0:48

in Greece. In the

0:50

following years he was on quite often tracing the

0:52

evolution of the Euro crisis. It

0:54

has been a few years though, since he was

0:56

last on the show, too long, but here he

0:59

is to make his case that we've moved beyond

1:01

capitalism to something worse, techno-fetalism. I'll

1:04

leave the definition to him. Before

1:06

that he'll talk about the experience of being

1:09

banned in Germany for supporting the Palestinian cause,

1:11

something that is now essentially illegal to do

1:13

in Germany. Another frequent

1:15

Behind the News guest, Jody Dean, has

1:17

been suspended from teaching at Hobart and

1:19

William Smith colleges for writing a defense

1:21

of Hamas on the Verso blog. This

1:24

gross violation of academic freedom was undertaken in

1:26

the words of the college for the safety

1:28

of the students. Other

1:31

reasons were given by USC for canceling

1:33

the valedictorian address by Osnott to Bosom.

1:36

Of course a real crime was that she would

1:38

have supported the Palestinian cause. This

1:40

is quite the repressive crackdown. And

1:43

now onto Janus Varafakis. He is

1:45

by profession an economist, but has a far broader

1:47

range of interests than most members of that profession.

1:50

He's just out with techno-fetalism, what

1:52

killed capitalism published by Melville House.

1:55

Janus Varafakis. Let's start

1:57

with what's going on in Germany. You

1:59

are forbidden. Given any political activity in

2:01

Germany, how do you

2:04

cross the Teutonic authorities here? Clearly,

2:06

the divorce

2:08

between the state

2:11

of Germany and myself has

2:13

to do with the manic

2:15

and hysteric attempt by the

2:17

Federal Republic and its whole

2:19

political spectrum, it's not just

2:21

the government. Their money

2:23

attempt to essentially

2:26

shed like

2:28

a snakeskin their own

2:30

nationalism and to replace it by a

2:33

very rabid version of Zionism. There is

2:35

no other explanation of what is going

2:38

on here, because let's not

2:40

forget that this is not aimed at

2:42

me so much, Doug. Let

2:44

me inform our listeners

2:46

that on Friday morning when

2:48

the Palestine Congress was meant

2:51

to take place in

2:53

Berlin, which my political party in

2:56

Germany, Mera 25, Deutschland, co-sponsored

2:58

together with the Jewish voice

3:00

for peace, the

3:02

first arrest involved

3:04

a young Jewish man who

3:07

was holding a little placard that he

3:09

had made himself saying, Jews against genocide.

3:12

And he was immediately arrested for that, for

3:14

antisemitism. And when he asked the policeman in

3:17

perfect German, because he is German, so would

3:19

you have been okay if it said Jews

3:21

in favor of genocide, then he was beaten

3:23

over the head by the police. My God.

3:26

So this is banning

3:28

me from entering the Federal Republic

3:30

of Germany, besides the interesting repercussion

3:33

that effectively they have declared the

3:35

European Union to have been dissolved,

3:37

because supposedly one of the great

3:39

benefits of being in the European

3:42

Union is that there is freedom

3:44

of movement of persons,

3:46

of ideas, of views. Well

3:49

that has been completely dissolved now,

3:51

courtesy of the German government. But the main

3:53

point is that a proud,

3:55

a decent people, the German people are

3:58

yet again being dragged into complicity

4:01

with a genocide which is

4:03

perpetuated in their name without

4:06

them actually realizing exactly what it is

4:08

that their government has been doing. This

4:11

is a first strike at

4:13

the right of Jews in

4:15

Germany to organize politically

4:18

against political decisions by

4:20

the Israeli state. So

4:23

the way I understand that this

4:25

is how I'm going to conclude

4:27

this very long-winded answer to your

4:29

brief question, I think the German

4:31

establishment is absolutely adamant that

4:34

they need for their own

4:37

reasons to equate any

4:39

objection to the policies and practices

4:41

of the state of Israel with

4:43

anti-Semitism. That is the raison d'etre.

4:46

This is the reason for the state as

4:49

it is expressed through this farcical,

4:52

banning me with the completely farcical if it

4:54

wasn't so serious. And Doug, for

4:57

the benefit of our listeners, he didn't just

4:59

ban me from entering Germany, which I actually

5:01

don't have a right to do because I'm

5:03

a European citizen as I mentioned. But

5:05

beyond that, this is where

5:07

we're entering a Monty

5:09

Python territory. They banned

5:11

me from participating in any

5:13

event in Germany via Zoom,

5:15

via video link. And

5:18

if that were not enough to

5:20

demonstrate the levels of the comedy

5:22

involved, they have banned

5:24

anyone in Germany from replaying

5:28

a recording of my voice or

5:31

my face during any event, whatever

5:33

the subject might be. You know,

5:36

I have spent the last 30 years giving lectures in

5:38

universities in Germany on economics and this and

5:41

that and the other. All that now has

5:43

been banned simply because

5:45

of this manic hysteria

5:47

for identifying any opposition to

5:49

whatever it is that Netanyahu's

5:51

regime is doing in Israel,

5:55

identifying this opposition with

5:57

anti-Semitism. How do you see this?

5:59

I mean, is it just displaced guilt of the

6:02

Holocaust? They're trying to, as I saw someone

6:04

on Twitter say, you can't wash off your

6:06

guilt over the Holocaust with the blood of

6:08

Palestinians. Is that the mechanism that's underlying all

6:10

this? Well, there is partly that. I

6:12

did a loop before in my long-winded answer

6:15

to my theory that after 1945 and

6:17

the imperfect denatification,

6:22

it was a denatification, a name,

6:24

but not in content. Remember how

6:27

many Nazis remained in positions of

6:29

power after 1945? After

6:32

that imperfect denatification, the German

6:35

political system could not sustain

6:37

a nationalist, not even a

6:39

patriotic narrative. Even the word

6:42

patriotism, which is fine by me. I'm a patriot.

6:44

I'm a Greek patriot. I love

6:46

my country. That's what I mean by that.

6:48

In Germany, the German establishment cannot bring themselves

6:50

to calling themselves patriotic. You

6:53

can see that in the way

6:55

they have embraced the European Union, unlike

6:57

the French, the French elites, or

6:59

both of the right and the center left,

7:02

who saw the European Union as

7:05

an opportunity to create a greater

7:07

France. The German

7:09

elites saw the European Union as

7:11

an opportunity to lose themselves in

7:14

Europeanism and

7:16

Europeanness and to shed

7:18

their nationalism. But, and here is, this is

7:20

my theory, right? I may be completely wrong.

7:22

My theory is that in order to maintain

7:25

an ideological glue

7:27

that allows them to

7:30

stick together to replace the nationalist

7:32

glue that they shed, well,

7:35

they adopted Zionism. Do you see

7:37

this anywhere else in Europe? And the degree

7:40

of it seems more extreme in Germany than

7:42

elsewhere in Europe. Certainly it's going on here

7:44

as well. The Germans

7:46

really seem to be breaking new territory here.

7:49

Are comparable things going on elsewhere? Or is Germany

7:51

really an outlier here? No, it's not an outlier.

7:53

I'll give you an example. Sometime

7:56

in late October, I was meant

7:58

to trample. to Vienna

8:00

where I had been awarded a prize

8:03

by the Academy of Sciences and Arts

8:06

and he was awarded to me two years ago. I was

8:08

under a lot of pressure to go by

8:10

the Academy of Sciences and Arts and to

8:12

meet the president and to meet the ministers

8:15

and it was a great honor and in

8:17

the end we delayed it because I was

8:19

very busy with politics with this one or

8:21

the other and I was you

8:23

know a big event a

8:26

three-day event actually was scheduled for me

8:28

and I was of course disinvited. I

8:30

was disinvited because

8:32

I took the view that

8:34

pretending that the problems in

8:36

Israel-Palestine began on the 7th

8:38

of October but everything was

8:40

hunky-dory until then until Hamas attacked

8:42

the wall and killed people and

8:45

took hostages is to fly in

8:47

the face of reality and to

8:49

denigrate the fact that for 80 years

8:51

now the Palestinian people have been

8:53

subjected to ethnic cleansing that Hamas

8:55

is irrelevant that was a point

8:58

I made and why is

9:00

Hamas irrelevant? Because well to begin with let's say

9:02

that there was a button and we pressed it

9:04

and Hamas disappeared well would

9:06

the problem be solved? No because as

9:08

we know Hamas isn't almost non-existent in

9:10

the West Bank and yet settlers

9:13

and the IDF are continuing

9:16

the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians there making

9:19

those statements after the 7th of

9:21

October was deemed sufficient to disinvite

9:23

me from Vienna similarly

9:26

here in my own country which

9:28

was traditionally a country that found

9:31

a lot in common with

9:34

the Palestinian cause let me say

9:36

that tell you that up until the

9:38

1990s the Greek government the right-wing governments

9:40

we had mostly right-wing governments up until

9:43

the 1990s to this day they

9:45

didn't recognize Israel on

9:47

the basis that they will recognize Israel

9:50

only once the Palestinian state is also

9:52

recognized so this was a very pro-Palestinian

9:54

country and yet over the last 10

9:56

years ever since we went bankrupt And

10:01

we're tortured by Germans, right? Yes. And,

10:04

you know, there is a connection here, but

10:06

I'll come back to that connection. So, the

10:09

Greek state now is completely in the pocket

10:11

of Israel. The Greek military

10:13

is dependent on Israel for

10:15

training, for equipment. The Israeli

10:17

Air Force uses Greek airspace

10:19

for vital to them training

10:22

exercises because their own airspace

10:24

is not large enough. And

10:26

here in Greece, let me

10:28

give you an example. My

10:30

government here, not my government, but the

10:33

government of the member state of Europe

10:35

called Greece, of

10:37

which I'm a citizen and proud as

10:39

hell, has not remonstrated to the German

10:41

authorities for violating European Union

10:44

freedom of movement legislation and banning

10:46

me from entering. So, they've been

10:48

complicit, the big government's been complicit.

10:50

So, no, it's not an outlier.

10:52

It is the most idiotic application

10:55

of altruism because, you

10:57

know, banning people from

10:59

actually participating in a

11:01

zoom conference is a

11:03

bridge too far. I think they've over-reached. Now

11:05

they realize that they've over-reached. I can see

11:07

that the German authorities, even

11:10

though they're not backing down or backing

11:12

off, they seem embarrassed by the

11:14

lengths and depths of their own inanity.

11:17

And I wonder if this podcast will be

11:19

banned in Germany. Supposedly,

11:21

you know, according to this, the

11:25

original ban was called

11:27

Betettingungsferbot, which is

11:29

issued by the Federal Minister of

11:31

the Interior, and

11:33

effectively bans a person and a

11:35

person's activities in every shade of

11:38

home. So, according to that original

11:40

decree against me, yes, if your

11:42

podcast, this podcast were to be

11:44

reproduced in Germany by anyone, then

11:48

they would be opening themselves up to

11:50

prosecution. But

11:52

interestingly, they realized that

11:54

this Betettingungsferbot is

11:57

utterly legal in the European Union, so

11:59

they've changed it. You see,

12:01

I'm learning new German words now

12:03

into an on-the-rise in a robot,

12:06

which is a milder kind

12:08

of robot or for ban,

12:11

which doesn't necessarily involve podcasts,

12:13

but it is, it film

12:16

bans zoom and video link

12:18

participation. The EU is supposed

12:20

to be about internationalism and the free movement of

12:22

everything, people as well as capital,

12:25

but apparently some ideas are not

12:27

allowed to move freely in the

12:29

EU. Well, I think that this is

12:31

going on. This Europeanists,

12:35

great supporters of the European project, used

12:38

to imagine and celebrate the European

12:40

Union as a peace project. But

12:43

well before Russia invaded Ukraine, the

12:45

European vision of the peaceful road to

12:47

shared prosperity, which was the official mantra

12:50

of the EU, had already become

12:52

too frazzled. And now

12:54

we have the European

12:56

Union's mutation into something that is,

12:59

should be unrecognizable to the

13:01

greater liberal supporters of the

13:03

EU. And let me

13:05

take you closer to our common

13:07

interest in economics and finance. You

13:10

will recall our discussions, what, 10, 12 years ago?

13:14

It's been a while, yes. Yeah.

13:18

My thesis, which was very simple,

13:21

we have federal money, the

13:23

euro, it's a kind of common

13:25

federal money. And what I

13:27

was saying to you in your program all

13:29

those years ago was that unless we

13:32

federate our fiscal powers,

13:34

our powers to tax and to

13:36

borrow and to spend, unless

13:38

we have a Hamiltonian moment

13:40

in American terms, then

13:43

we're going to be in dire straits. And

13:45

there were all these discussions and these policy

13:47

papers I was putting out for Euro bonds,

13:49

equivalent of US Treasury bills, in order

13:52

to bring together consolidation,

13:55

to consolidate our debt, in order to

13:57

consolidate our democracies, to consolidate our our

14:00

politics, purely Hamiltonian arguments. That

14:02

all went by, by

14:05

the by. It was all ignored. The

14:08

European Union, in its infinite wisdom,

14:11

allowed a very good crisis, the Euro crisis,

14:13

to go to waste and not use it

14:16

as an excuse for federating,

14:18

for creating these common instruments

14:20

to consolidate, to create a

14:23

process of continental consolidation. They

14:25

just let all this go.

14:28

And instead, they practiced huge

14:30

austerity to keep together the

14:32

Euro area, the federal money, without any

14:35

kind of political or fiscal federation. And

14:37

yet now, only a month ago,

14:40

the president of the European Union Council, a

14:43

central gentleman, a failed Belgian politician by

14:45

the name of Charles

14:47

Michel, came out and

14:49

proposed a Eurobond out of the

14:51

blue. What I have

14:54

been proposing now for two decades and more has

14:57

come back as a proposal. But

14:59

not in order to fund common

15:02

health programs, education programs, and

15:04

particularly the green transition, our

15:07

equivalent IRA, which doesn't exist in

15:09

the European Union, no, to fund

15:12

a new European military

15:14

industrial complex, which according to the

15:17

president of the European Union Council,

15:19

is going to become the engine of growth

15:22

and technological progress of the European continent. So

15:24

there is the idea of the European, they

15:26

will not do it because they're incompetent and

15:28

because they don't want the political, democratic,

15:31

getting together consolidation that that

15:34

would involve, but they still

15:37

veered towards this narrative of getting

15:39

together to fund a never

15:41

ending war. Because if you

15:43

rely, as in the United States, on your own,

15:45

you have to meet that in passive complex as

15:48

the engine of growth. But then you have to

15:50

engineer a lot of wars in order to make sure that

15:52

this engine of growth doesn't stall. So the original

15:55

idea of the European Union project

15:57

as a peace project, which is a

15:59

very important juxtaposes against the United States,

16:02

which was also sending the British force and so

16:04

on. That is gone.

16:06

That's gone even according to the official

16:08

version, according to what comes

16:10

out of the horse's mouth in Brussels. Okay,

16:14

let's move on to an equally

16:16

cheerful topic, techno-fetalism. So first,

16:18

could you just give us a quick definition

16:20

of what you mean by the term and

16:22

why it's important? The term

16:24

is a repercussion of certain observations that

16:26

have been hitting me once after the

16:28

other over the last seven, eight years.

16:31

My understanding of capitalism is by

16:33

the way, full disclosure, it's fully

16:36

Marxist. I understand

16:38

capitalism as a system of

16:40

exploitation based on the marketization

16:42

of labor and of capital

16:44

and of money. So markets, unlike

16:47

in feudalism, where most, most of the

16:49

productive activity was happening outside markets, there

16:51

was no labor market, there was labor,

16:53

but there was no market for labor.

16:56

There was a rent

16:58

that was extracted by the feudal lords,

17:00

courtesy of owning the land. And

17:03

markets were peripheral. There

17:05

were side shows to that story. And

17:08

capitalism was the great transformation

17:10

of societies from

17:13

societies where land ownership

17:15

gave power to its owners

17:18

to extract rents from the peasants.

17:20

The system where power sprang

17:22

out of owning capital, that is

17:25

produced means of production like steam

17:27

engines, electricity grids and so on.

17:29

And that power allowed

17:32

the accumulation of surplus value, part

17:34

of which ended up in the

17:36

pockets of the owners of these

17:38

produced means of production of capital

17:41

as profits. So profits and markets

17:43

was capitalism. The observations that have

17:45

led me to write techno feudalism

17:47

and to make the astonishing claim

17:49

and the weird claim that capital

17:51

has grown so toxic and so

17:54

triumphant that it has actually killed

17:56

its host capitalism and now it

17:58

has begot capital. capital itself

18:00

has begun through a mutation of it

18:02

to what I call cloud capital, to

18:04

the capital that lives in your phone

18:06

and in your laptop and on the

18:08

supposed cloud, the proverbial cloud. It

18:11

has given rise to a system where

18:13

markets have been replaced by digital platforms,

18:15

which are called cloud thieves, and

18:18

profits have been replaced by a new form

18:20

of ground brand, which are called

18:22

cloud brands. And if I'm right in

18:24

this hypothesis, then we have a weird

18:26

kind of capital-based feudalism. It's

18:28

a capital which is very different

18:30

to every other kind of capital

18:33

we had so far. It's not

18:35

a produced means of production. It's

18:37

a produced means of behavioral modification.

18:39

This is a unique mutation of capital,

18:42

which has destroyed capitalism and replaced it

18:44

with what I call techno-fudalism, which is

18:46

the realm of cloud capital, the cloud

18:48

delish, the owners of cloud capital, who

18:50

are in my estimation extracting already

18:53

30% of global GDP in the form of cloud brands.

18:57

And together with the monies

18:59

that have been emptied by

19:02

the G7's central banks, they

19:04

have completely taken over from

19:07

the standard capitalist dynamic based

19:09

on the accumulation of

19:11

surplus value through the

19:13

ownership and the accumulation of produced

19:15

means of production. I saw that 30%

19:18

figure. You did an interview with Wired, I

19:20

believe it was. How do you arrive at

19:22

that number? It seems very large. The

19:25

first thing you do is you identify the firms

19:27

which are based on cloud capital.

19:30

And these are, of course, the

19:32

Magnificent Zone in New York Stock

19:35

Exchange, which by the way is

19:37

the lion's share of the New York Stock

19:39

Exchange. If you take those cloudless firms out,

19:42

very little is left in terms

19:44

of actual value circulating

19:48

around the circuits

19:50

of financial capital in the United

19:52

States. If you add to

19:55

these companies, the smaller

19:57

ones around Europe, in

19:59

Indonesia, In Malaysia, of

20:02

course, the great cloudless

20:04

in China, Alibaba, Tencent, Baidu, all

20:06

those companies which are the equivalent

20:09

of Silicon Valley, of the big

20:11

tech of the Magnificent Seven. And

20:14

you thought up the net revenues of

20:16

all those, or even the revenues,

20:19

you'll find that you end up with

20:21

an astonishing percentage. I think that 30%

20:24

may actually be an underestimate

20:26

because, Doug, we must not forget

20:28

that this kind of capital, which

20:30

are called cloud capital, is so

20:33

quantitatively different to

20:35

traditional capital that we are talking about a

20:37

qualitative change. Let me give you a specific

20:40

number. If you

20:42

take any of the old fashioned conglomerates,

20:44

capitalist conglomerates like General Electric, General

20:46

Motors, Privy Sharrowspace,

20:49

Volkswagen, and so on,

20:51

85% of their revenues go to salaries and wages, 85%.

20:55

More or less, there is a homomorphism

20:57

here. It's between 82% and 88%. When

21:01

it comes to Facebook, for instance, or

21:03

Google, it's less than 1% that

21:05

goes to wages and salaries. The rest

21:07

is rent. And most rent is rent

21:09

that you and I are producing, not

21:12

even the employees of those companies. That's

21:14

why I call us. We

21:17

are the producers, the direct producers of this

21:19

cloud capital, because every time you upload a

21:22

post on Facebook or a video

21:24

on TikTok, you are actually contributing

21:27

directly to the cloud capital of

21:29

those conglomerates. So they don't

21:31

need wage labor because they have cloud serves. It

21:34

doesn't matter whether you're doing it voluntarily or

21:36

not. You are producing capital directly. That has

21:38

never happened to you. The steam engines, when

21:40

they have to be built or electricity grids,

21:42

the capitalists employ wage labor to do it.

21:45

Now you don't have that. So especially

21:48

now with AI, turbocharging, the

21:50

power of cloud capital, I

21:53

think we are going to be looking at 40% of

21:56

global GDP being

21:59

siphoned off. the circular flow of income

22:01

in the form of what are called cloud grants.

22:34

Take my money, I don't

22:36

work that high, I just

22:39

sleep in the ceiling high,

22:41

I'm lying away from the

22:44

love that I wanted to

22:46

be. Let

22:49

me go on

22:51

in the power of the blue,

22:59

Let me just go

23:01

evil, Let

23:03

me go, let me

23:05

go, Let

23:10

me give you power

23:12

and victory. That

23:17

was some evil spawn from Waxahatchee's new

23:19

album. And now the

23:21

second part of my interview with

23:23

Yannis Varoufakis, author of Technofetalism, What

23:25

Killed Capitalism, published by Melvohouse. I

23:27

was just thinking about value-added numbers. The

23:30

entire information sector in the US is

23:32

responsible for less than 2% of

23:34

value-added, less than 1% of employment. Amazon

23:37

has 1.5 million

23:40

employees, so it's not exactly free from

23:43

the old constraints of wage labor. And

23:46

its total revenues are equal to about

23:48

a week's US retail sales. I feel

23:51

like you're really exaggerating the

23:54

significance of these firms as

23:56

paradigms. When you look at them closely,

23:58

they don't really work. seem all

24:01

that exemplary of the way economic life

24:03

is conducted today. Most people don't work

24:05

in these kinds of institutions. The U.S.

24:08

economy keeps adding 200,000, 300,000 employees a

24:12

month, mostly in rather old

24:14

kinds of fields. Just focusing

24:16

on a couple of stars and drawing

24:18

really heroic conclusions from them. I

24:21

don't believe so. In your estimation,

24:23

for instance, in your own computation, where do

24:25

you place Walmart? Because Walmart is

24:27

increasing, moving to the cloud. It

24:30

does retail sales though. They buy products

24:32

cheaply and sell them more expensively. They

24:34

do a lot of that. So does

24:36

Amazon. Amazon moves around. They've got warehouses

24:38

all over logistics. I

24:40

remember when Amazon first started, they were going

24:42

to do it with all without any kind

24:44

of logistic infrastructure. Well, they found out that

24:47

they needed it. And they became, in that

24:49

sense, they have one foot in the very

24:51

old economy of moving things around. Of

24:53

course they do. But that's like

24:55

saying that capitalism needed

24:58

a feudal sector that produced the

25:00

food without which capitalism would not

25:02

continue. Take Amazon, for instance,

25:04

right? I mean, they are not producing anything.

25:07

They are simply shifting stuff

25:09

around. They charge anything

25:11

between 15 and 40% of

25:13

the price you pay on it. This is a

25:15

form of ground rent. I call it cloud

25:18

rent. How do you account

25:20

for that in your statistics? Do you count

25:22

it as profit? I don't. Are you

25:24

referring to the outside sellers? Yes,

25:26

of course. They are all

25:28

outside sellers. 99% of what

25:30

is being traded on the Amazon

25:33

platform, on Alibaba, just like Airbnb,

25:35

like Uber, they do not own

25:38

the capital goods that produce the

25:40

services and the goods that are

25:42

being traded on them. They are

25:44

charging a cloud rent. Well, Amazon

25:46

has giant warehouses, distribution centers, entire

25:49

network of couriers, a

25:52

million and a half employees. I mean, that's

25:55

not post-material in any sense. Nothing

25:58

to say. This is the

26:00

power of cloud capital. The

26:03

way I say this is there

26:05

is one piece of software, very

26:07

complicated software, which is the Amazon

26:09

algorithm. The same algorithm which

26:11

trains us to train

26:14

it, to train us to put good

26:16

ideas into our mind as to what

26:18

we should buy, books, music, electric

26:20

bicycles, and so on, and

26:22

which forms desires in our heads

26:24

which make us buy from

26:27

Amazon those goods. The same

26:29

algorithm is controlling the work

26:32

base of the proletarians in the

26:34

Amazon warehouses. It is the

26:36

same algorithm that predicts in which warehouse

26:40

there is an elevated probability of

26:42

a trade union being formed and

26:44

therefore immediately it either fires workers

26:47

or downplays the significance in

26:49

the network of the company of

26:51

that particular warehouse in order to

26:53

prevent unionization. This is one algorithm.

26:55

And as I said, it's a

26:57

produced means of behavior modification and

27:00

that algorithm is what allows the

27:03

accumulation of rents in Amazon. That

27:05

of course is completely dependent on

27:08

a capitalist sector being

27:10

alive within the techno-feudal

27:12

order. So if

27:14

you want to say that the

27:16

standard capitalist sector, the original capitalist

27:18

sector, is essential for

27:21

techno-feudal order that I am describing,

27:23

you are completely right. Let

27:25

me put it in Marxist terms. In my book,

27:28

which from my perspective is a

27:30

fully Marxist political economy analysis, all

27:33

surplus value, all value, all exchange value,

27:35

and therefore all surplus value is produced

27:37

in the traditional capitalist sector. But increasingly,

27:39

and that's where the 30% figure comes

27:42

from, 30% of

27:45

value added, as you put it, is

27:47

being siphoned off in the form

27:49

of cloud capital by companies like Amazon,

27:52

but not just Amazon. Increasingly, Tesla,

27:54

for instance, I don't know whether

27:57

you know that, but increasingly it's

28:00

revenues are coming not from selling cars but

28:03

from the data it collects in

28:05

real time from drivers driving around in

28:07

Tesla cars because Elon Musk

28:09

knows not Elon Musk but his

28:11

algorithm knows when you're driving his

28:14

car to go to the supermarket what

28:16

did you actually buy in the supermarket what

28:18

music were you listening to before

28:20

you got off in order to go to the supermarket

28:22

to buy whatever it is and

28:25

increasingly all this

28:27

data is being utilized in order

28:29

to train algorithms by Walmart sell

28:31

his data to Walmart for instance

28:34

so you can see that the

28:37

two sectors the capitalist sector

28:39

and the techno-fiddle sector are

28:42

absolutely intimately interrelated but the

28:44

point I'm making is with

28:46

the increasing replacement of actual

28:49

markets with these digital platforms

28:51

and the shift of value

28:54

from the capitalist sector to the

28:56

clouderists you have from

28:58

a macroeconomic point of view greater

29:01

and greater instability because aggregate

29:03

demand falls in

29:06

proportion to the increasing

29:09

cloud rents for reasons that

29:11

David Ricardo has told us centuries ago

29:14

and if you add to

29:16

that what's going on in the developing world in

29:19

Indonesia I made this point up in the

29:21

book you've got Jeff Bezos not

29:24

Amazon but Jeff Bezos enterprises together

29:26

with Peter Thiel and others

29:29

local Indonesian clouderists or owners

29:31

of cloud capital who've purchased

29:33

three and a half million

29:35

kiosks from around the countryside

29:37

to financialize them and to

29:40

incorporate them into their own

29:42

version of cloud capital this

29:44

is already happening as we if

29:46

you look at WeChat the

29:49

app belonging to Tencent in

29:52

China you will find

29:54

that a very

29:56

substantial amount of value

29:59

added of surplus value value in China

30:01

is by being siphoned off. And this

30:03

is why President Xi has

30:05

tried to put the lid on

30:08

cloud capital, on cloud rent.

30:10

And there is this apparent

30:13

clash between the leadership

30:15

of the Communist Party with

30:17

the representatives of Chinese big tech.

30:20

For me, unless we

30:22

understand the encroachments of

30:24

the techno-feudal order around

30:26

the world, we do not understand what is going on,

30:28

especially we do not understand the new Cold War between

30:30

the United States and China. I want

30:33

to return to that topic in a moment, but let's talk a

30:35

moment about Tesla. Just like an hour

30:37

before we started recording, it was announced that Tesla is

30:39

going to lay off a tenth of its workforce. They

30:41

have about 140,000 employees, which is not a trivial number.

30:46

About a tenth of them are going to

30:48

get laid off because of falling prices for

30:50

electric vehicles and rising competition. That sounds like

30:52

pretty much old-style capitalism to

30:55

me. They're not operating in a

30:57

world where all this information can

30:59

deliver them from the realities of

31:02

old-style competition. You're right.

31:04

Tesla is on

31:07

the cast between, on the

31:10

gray zone between the capitalist and the

31:13

techno-feudal sector. No

31:15

doubt about that. They are producing physical

31:17

goods like cars, their own cars, like

31:19

Henry Ford was producing them. And they

31:21

are subject to competition from BYD in

31:24

particular in China. And yeah,

31:26

it's actually BYD. There's no doubt

31:28

about that. I'm not arguing that the capitalist sector

31:30

is going away. What I'm saying,

31:32

this is my controversial claim, that

31:35

the cloud-capitalist sector, the techno-feudal sector,

31:38

has already become

31:41

dominant. Elon Musk

31:44

was always with one foot

31:46

inside that camp of cloud-realists. And

31:52

this is why he bought

31:54

Twitter. Because he wasn't fully

31:56

entrenched in this cloud capital.

31:58

Twitter was his intervention. face

32:01

when he talked about turning it into an everything

32:03

app. That's what he meant. But

32:05

Jeff Bezos doesn't have this problem because

32:07

Amazon is not in a

32:09

capitalist competition with anybody else. It's

32:12

in competition with Walmart and Target. Yeah,

32:14

but that's not a that's not a

32:16

capitalist competition. This is rivalry because

32:19

under feudalism there was always a

32:21

rivalry between fiefdoms. The

32:23

point I'm making is this that if you are

32:25

already inside amazon.com, if you have an account and

32:27

so on, you may also be in another

32:30

fief, but there is

32:32

no direct competition within you

32:35

know, the two platforms are not competing

32:37

with one another. They are

32:40

using their tools in order to suck

32:42

you in. So if you if you're

32:45

selling stuff through Amazon, your business model

32:47

is reliant on all

32:50

the tools that Amazon has given you

32:52

and you can't simply costlessly

32:55

go from there to Walmart. You

32:59

can but the switching

33:02

costs are so high. They

33:04

are reminiscent of the

33:06

cost of upping stumps from one fiefdom

33:09

and going to another fiefdom in medieval

33:11

England. What if I want

33:13

to buy, you know, some lawn furniture for

33:15

my very tiny backyard here in Brooklyn. I

33:17

can go to Amazon, but I can also

33:20

go to the Target which is not

33:22

that far away. I can go to

33:24

Home Depot, which is also not that far away. I

33:26

mean, there's just still an awful lot of competition in

33:29

the retail space that for all the

33:31

clever algorithms that Amazon

33:33

can assemble and deploy. There's

33:36

still a lot of very substantial

33:39

real-world competition that I don't know.

33:42

I don't see it. They're important. They're

33:44

very important, but they're not dominant in the

33:46

way you seem to want to argue. Well,

33:48

we have a different perception

33:50

on this. The

33:52

fact that you can doesn't mean that you do

33:55

and for the vast majority of people in the United

33:57

States in particular, these

34:00

conglomerates have succeeded in spreading

34:02

an aridity around themselves. So

34:04

in many towns in the

34:06

Midwest, in here in Greece,

34:09

you simply don't have an alternative. Maybe

34:11

you go from one platform to another,

34:14

but most people don't. And

34:16

if you look at the interoperability

34:19

percentages, and this is empirical, real

34:21

empirical data, there's very little, there

34:24

is very little shopping around happening.

34:26

Because once you are inside amazon.com,

34:28

and you have paid for your

34:30

prime account, and you

34:33

know, you're paying every month, a fee

34:35

for this for that to the other

34:37

people simply are locked in. And this

34:40

is the beauty of it. Because unlike

34:42

in feudalism, nobody forces you to it's

34:44

all voluntary. This

34:47

is a carryover from capitalism,

34:50

your slavery is volunteered. Musk

34:53

is an interesting character, because he does

34:55

operate in very physical industries. His friends

34:57

build cars, they build rocket ships, they

34:59

drill holes in the ground to make

35:01

tunnels. And he's making

35:03

a terrible mess of Twitter, he's not being

35:05

very successful at that enterprise. He'd

35:07

lives on earth as well as the clouds. Absolutely.

35:10

He's the epitome of somebody

35:12

who's got one foot on

35:15

each boat. That

35:18

could be harmful. But

35:21

he reminds me a lot of Thomas Edison,

35:23

because if you read the currency wars, Edison,

35:26

who was a genius

35:28

when it came to marketing himself, not

35:31

so much inventing, but marketing himself on

35:34

destroying his opposition, and so on. The

35:36

venom with which he tried

35:39

to fight Westinghouse and alternative

35:41

current. I can see

35:46

Elon Musk in Thomas Edison. I remember

35:49

the scene in Coney Island where he actually

35:51

electrocuted that poor elephant. Yeah, I saw that

35:53

in college. I saw it in cinema, of

35:55

course, in college. It's stuck with me ever

35:57

since. That's something Elon Musk could have done.

36:00

Thomas Edison blundered to a very large

36:02

extent, many of his advantages. But

36:07

nevertheless, Thomas Edison does mark

36:10

a significant transformation of

36:13

capitalism from its

36:15

early phase to its monopoly phase. Similarly,

36:18

I think Elon Musk is a

36:21

good marker for this transition to

36:23

cloud capital, the transition to what I

36:25

call technofidelity. And as time

36:27

is running out, there are two more

36:29

large topics I want to cover. One,

36:31

you talk about this cloud capitalist as

36:33

a new ruling class. I

36:36

don't really see these people articulating themselves that

36:38

much with the political system. Their political

36:40

contributions and lobbying are pretty minor compared

36:42

to the size of some of these companies.

36:45

The US right is really driven and

36:48

funded by, at least on

36:50

the business side, by Koch Industries,

36:53

good firms, private equity, models

36:55

like the U-Lines. I'm

36:58

not seeing that these cloud

37:00

capitalists are getting too deeply involved

37:02

in the political system, joining the

37:04

political class, or really interacting with

37:06

the state. Well, the CHIPS Act

37:08

is providing subsidies to

37:11

Intel and Alexa. But these cloud

37:13

capitalists are not, I don't see

37:15

them that politically active compared to

37:18

many other industries. They don't have to,

37:20

Doug, because if you are a

37:24

fossil fuel producer, you absolutely

37:27

rely on the White House.

37:30

The White House or the FDC or someone

37:32

can carry out very

37:35

quickly some campaign which damages

37:37

you inexorably. But as

37:39

we know, the FDC has been trying

37:41

to do something about the exorbitant

37:44

power of Amazon and others. And

37:47

they can't. Because this

37:49

is not standard oil. Standard

37:52

oil technically could be broken up very,

37:54

very quickly. The Koch brothers could be

37:56

broken up very quickly. Technically politically it's

37:58

very hard. And why? spending

38:00

all this money lobbying and that's why they're doing it.

38:03

But you know with Facebook, what do we do with

38:05

Facebook? How do you break up Facebook? It seems it

38:07

cannot be done. And it will be crazy

38:09

to break it up into have a

38:11

Facebook California and a Facebook New York where

38:13

the two do not communicate with

38:16

one another. So that's

38:18

my theory at least is this, but

38:20

they are not doing that

38:22

much lobbying because they don't need

38:24

to. They have the algos. The

38:27

algos are so powerful. And

38:29

you know what? Remember the way in

38:31

which the financial derivatives, the weapons of

38:33

mass financial destruction as Warren Buffett called

38:36

them. Remember that their complexity

38:38

was their power. No

38:40

one understood what was in there, not even the

38:42

people who actually created them. And that was their

38:44

strength because they were so

38:46

opaque. They traded like hotcakes

38:48

for a while and then they were

38:50

salvaged by by Summers

38:53

and Geithner after 2008, 2009. Similarly, the algorithms, especially

38:58

now the AI driven algorithms of

39:00

Amazon, of Google, the people

39:03

who actually program them do not know

39:05

why those algorithms do what they

39:07

do. So how can anyone

39:10

regulate them? So unlike

39:12

fossil fuels and unlike

39:14

you know the old fashioned Koch

39:16

brothers and so on who need to have

39:19

politicians in their pockets, the

39:21

strength of the cloud capital of the techno

39:23

feudal lords is enough for them. Oh,

39:26

by the way, let's

39:28

not underestimate some of the moves they've

39:30

already made. Who owns the Washington Post?

39:33

Oh, Jeff Bezos. Peter

39:35

Thiel, I know it from

39:39

the inside more or less. He's very

39:41

active in promoting right wing causes. You

39:44

saw Elon Musk. Musk is

39:46

also engaged in politics. His

39:48

position on Israel, his position

39:51

on Donald Trump, now

39:53

in Argentina with Millet,

39:56

He's flexing his political masses, but he doesn't

39:58

need to do as much as. The Koch

40:00

Brothers Mint. Imagine. A I am.

40:02

The. Investment requirements for the stuff. Or

40:05

nervous or Microsoft already has what

40:07

three hundred data centers or something

40:09

like that around the world us

40:11

as there are building wind farms

40:13

to power them are even talk

40:15

building a little nuclear power plants.

40:17

the capital spending as as enormous

40:19

to develop this infrastructures made it

40:21

all looks insubstantial and cloudy to

40:23

us but dump in of the

40:25

really is and not to mention

40:27

all that the hardware that goes

40:29

into outfitting these things like kind

40:32

of disappears a memory and read

40:34

something like go. About done

40:36

information Fetishism like it's like a second

40:38

order commodity fetishism into the to, the

40:40

to, the relation between people, his relation

40:42

between things and classic commodity fetishism. But

40:44

then you add a layer of information

40:46

on top of it and all the

40:49

social and physical relations disappear. But just

40:51

looking, it did the cloud part. and

40:53

mere, you're forgetting just how much physicality

40:55

this depends on Why I don't I'm

40:57

I'm a day list and I've made

40:59

it a very clear my book or

41:02

asthma beginning that Club Capital has nothing

41:04

to do the cloud. Is right on

41:06

else and it's own. they idiot. And.

41:08

The a I've been need do

41:11

and make a subset of home

41:13

somewhere in youtube. And

41:15

it's s humming. J

41:18

can take Solace Factory that made you

41:20

were to severe by the eat. When

41:22

you're in the you know that this

41:24

is the thing about the there's nothing

41:26

about as cloud the about it it's

41:29

it's cooling madame ah but what is

41:31

a fascinating and I was alerted to

41:33

that by somebody really? they high up

41:35

and facebook and I make a song

41:37

and dance about this and level what

41:40

is fascinating to me that will most

41:42

of that cloud capital who's finance through

41:44

a central banks. After the

41:46

two thousand and nine the

41:48

bailouts, nine out of ten.

41:51

Dollars. Doesn't went into

41:53

all this infrastructure. This materiality

41:56

that he describes of Facebook

41:58

came out of. The money

42:00

and that was related to be by

42:02

somebody really the with a the I

42:04

up in Facebook and then I started

42:06

looking and indeed because you think about

42:08

from April two thousand and mind to

42:10

Opus in a given year a half

42:12

ago. The. Summer bunch of the do Seven

42:15

produced about thirty five to fifty six three and

42:17

dollars have to the money. They

42:19

flooded the seconds of capital

42:21

of the financial sector with

42:23

it. While our governments will

42:25

practice mistake, so austerity killed

42:27

a real investment investment in

42:29

in provisional capital, produce music

42:32

with action, The. Money was

42:34

be used in order to essentially

42:36

finance share buybacks by most companies,

42:38

so the stop or changes were

42:41

doing very well. but investment was

42:43

pretty tepid. A except for to.

42:46

The only company's websites took that money from

42:48

the banks. Took. It from

42:51

the Fed from the European Central Bank back

42:53

to Japan's with them as on with you

42:55

know their bases and the zoo, the books

42:57

of the Word and and and Microsoft of

42:59

course. and they. Used.

43:01

State money it's and Scully you

43:03

know the to build this huge

43:05

quantity of any material cloud capital.

43:08

I think the rebate and be interesting because

43:10

this is also not part of what you

43:12

consider to be it for a business capitals

43:14

than. I. Totally agree with

43:16

your the Kiwi question that people

43:19

really under strict the transformative power

43:21

that finally their lives were running

43:23

on time. So when I get

43:25

to this you analyze the increasing

43:27

tensions between the Us and China

43:30

as are being a lot about

43:32

cloud Capital The I see it

43:34

as one to us as fearing

43:36

the rise of an imperial rival

43:38

our very own sort influence real

43:41

estate military power or was classic

43:43

things about the imperial rivalry. but

43:46

also are a lot of it

43:48

as centering on tech but as

43:50

chip manufacturing or the us seems

43:52

to be very worried about china

43:54

getting ah the capacity to produce

43:56

really advanced electronics are and try

43:58

to prevent it We

44:00

have the Biden administration subsidizing the

44:02

US chip industry. We're

44:05

seeing an explosion in investment in chip

44:08

production in the US because of these subsidies.

44:10

It's about the rivalry of hardware more, it

44:13

seems to me, than it is about Alibaba

44:16

versus Amazon. I think it's

44:18

neither. Neither Alibaba

44:20

versus Amazon nor hardware.

44:22

They are saying things about hardware being

44:25

produced and including malware chips

44:27

in China. The one thing

44:29

that American administrators

44:31

and decision makers understand,

44:34

and they understand independently of whether

44:37

they are Republicans or Democrats, is

44:39

the importance of

44:41

maintaining the monopoly

44:43

over the international payment system.

44:46

Because as we know, the United States

44:49

has been since 1971, the breakdown of

44:51

Bretton Woods. It has

44:53

been increasing its Germany in direct proportion

44:55

to its deficits, which have been acting

44:57

as a fantastic way of

44:59

sucking into the territory of the United States, both

45:01

the net exports of everybody else, including China's, and

45:04

somewhere between 70 and 80% of the

45:06

profits of the rest

45:08

of the world's capitalists. That's how America has been

45:10

becoming increasingly hegemonic after

45:13

the end of the Bretton Woods system.

45:15

Suddenly, they have a problem with China

45:17

building up its military. China is not

45:19

even building up its military, that's significantly.

45:23

That didn't bother the Clinton administration,

45:25

didn't bother the Obama administration. Suddenly,

45:28

it's only the last seven, eight years when

45:30

cloud capital has emerged. But it's not because

45:32

Alibaba is threatening Amazon.

45:34

No. If you want to know

45:37

what it is that they are really very worried about, it

45:39

is, I mentioned it, WeChat. WeChat is

45:41

an application owned by Tencent,

45:44

which allows the Chinese, or anybody, you,

45:46

can have an app as long as

45:49

you are happy to transact in one

45:51

in the Chinese currency. And

45:53

you can make a payment to anybody at no

45:55

fee. That is a complete disaster for

45:57

Wall Street. Wall Street will never allow Apple to sell.

46:00

and Google and big tech, American

46:02

cloud capital to take

46:04

away its capacity to extract

46:06

financial rents.

46:10

So, the United States does not have the capacity

46:12

to merge its cloud capital with Wall Street. The

46:15

Chinese have done it through WeChat and not

46:17

only through WeChat, but we have the new

46:19

digital currency by the Central Bank of China.

46:22

So I know people in

46:24

Germany, German businessmen who

46:27

are trading with China and

46:30

who skipped out of the dollar payment system,

46:32

out of the European Central Bank, out of

46:34

the Buddhist Bank, they're using WeChat and they

46:36

use the digital currency of China. Suddenly,

46:39

people in Washington who understand realize

46:42

that there is an alternative to the dollar payment

46:44

system. And that to them

46:46

is a clear and it's an existentialist

46:48

threat to American hegemony. This

46:50

is why they are trying to deny first,

46:53

it was Trump, the ban Huawei. That

46:55

was the first step. But then Joe

46:58

Biden came in and

47:00

confirmed the bipartisanship in this

47:02

attempt, banned importation into

47:04

China or export to China of

47:07

high quality chips. Why? Because

47:10

they're scared of the

47:12

evolution and the

47:14

improvements in the payment system using

47:17

cloud capital, the merged cloud capital and

47:20

financial capital of China, which can never

47:22

be replicated in the United States, not

47:24

because the United States doesn't have the

47:26

technology, but because Wall Street will

47:29

never allow its banking

47:31

monopoly to be diluted

47:35

into the cloud capital of the

47:37

West Coast. Anxiety is about

47:39

the replacement of the dollar's role as the

47:41

world's central currency. They go back

47:44

decades and there are many, many dimensions

47:46

to it, much larger than cloud capital

47:49

For example, there's no treasury market for

47:51

people to park a lot of money in China.

47:53

The Chinese wouldn't want it. A

47:55

lot of the Chinese elite seems to be

47:57

very reluctant to open up that much. to

48:00

open up its financial markets to foreign

48:03

influence. So it's really, it seems much

48:06

less a matter of technology than

48:08

politics and relative economic power. I

48:11

will insist in my thesis and let me

48:13

tell you why. You are completely right. The

48:15

thing that has been holding back the

48:18

Chinese alternative payment system is Chinese capital.

48:20

What else I lost you? The development

48:22

of the Chinese payment system is

48:25

Chinese capitalists who, as you correctly

48:27

say, they do not want to

48:29

use it. They prefer the dollar system. So

48:32

Chinese traditional capitalists, aluminum

48:35

producers or traditional car manufacturers,

48:37

they want their money in

48:40

dollars because they want the American dollar for

48:42

the fundamental reason that the American trade

48:45

deficit is what creates demand for their

48:47

goods. So the Chinese

48:49

alternative payment system wouldn't get anywhere if

48:51

it was just that. But the war

48:53

in Ukraine by seizing $450

48:55

billion of Russian central bank money has

49:01

created an interest not

49:04

so much by the Chinese but by

49:07

German producers, by

49:09

Saudi Arabians who start feeling,

49:11

hmm, when the Americans didn't

49:13

like Putin's oligarchs, they seized their money. Maybe

49:15

they will seize our money if they don't

49:17

like us tomorrow. So they started

49:19

hedging their bet. As

49:22

Jonas Verafakis, author of Technofutalism, What

49:24

Killed Capitalism, published by Melville House.

49:27

Apologies for the abrupt ending, but Zencaster,

49:29

the platform I used to record these

49:31

interviews, started failing, which it rarely does.

49:33

We're about out of time anyway, but

49:35

an elegant conclusion would have been nicer.

49:38

One advantage of doing one's own show is getting

49:40

the last word. First, about Jonas's

49:42

claims that U.S.-China tensions are driven

49:44

by the threat that digital wan

49:46

presents the dollar's preeminent international role.

49:49

I've covered this several times in the

49:51

show, and these anxieties seem overblown. China

49:53

has nothing like the deep financial markets that

49:56

make the U.S. dollar attractive to foreign holders.

49:58

There's nowhere big players can pay. Spare

50:00

cash as a slight. will you be a

50:02

long time before there is. The. Sees

50:04

more like a great power rivalry to me. More.

50:07

Generally of skeptical of the emergence of

50:09

the digital monsters Yeah, this focuses on

50:11

market systemic change even if they changed

50:13

the way we live as the television

50:15

once upon a time, he rest in

50:17

the book. Just Basis and Elon Musk

50:19

were able to build their super expensive,

50:21

ultra powerful club capital without needing to

50:23

do any of the three things capitalists

50:25

traditionally had to do to expand borrow

50:27

money from some bank so large portions

50:30

of their businesses to others or generate

50:32

large profits to pay for do capital

50:34

stock. In. Fact: They share the business

50:36

with public stock holders and they both have

50:38

large debt. Plus. They generate profits

50:40

with which they fund physical investments.

50:43

That. Sounds like a very incomplete departure

50:45

from tradition. Gonna. Says the club

50:47

sector rests on a foundation of classic

50:49

capitalism, but if that realm as were

50:51

over ninety percent of employment and value

50:53

added reside and seems odd to promote

50:55

the Cloudless to exemplary status. It's.

50:57

Interesting how to the leaders of this

50:59

club world. Google and Met us had

51:01

had difficulties moving beyond the original businesses

51:04

as suggests to me that they may

51:06

be more anomalous an exemplary. They.

51:08

Are remarkably profitable yes to the tune of

51:10

about a half a million dollars per employee

51:12

last year, but Exxon Mobil makes even more.

51:15

And there aren't many companies like Google or

51:17

Mehta either. Amazon. Extract some

51:19

or ordinary twenty thousand dollars in profit

51:21

for employee, but that's about a third

51:23

About the ultimate O line from General

51:25

Motors. makes. And. Poor, he loves Tesla.

51:27

Stock is down by about two thirds

51:29

to bestow every. twenty twenty one Peak

51:31

thirty percent just the past week As

51:33

the severity of it's competitive challenges has

51:35

come clear, All. The data snooping

51:38

in the world would make much money of

51:40

Tesla can't sell cars? As your

51:42

political engagement, younis has a point about Teal,

51:44

but he has one force among many. Even

51:46

if you limit your sample to the right,

51:48

this crowd is a long way from becoming

51:50

a new ruling class and a contempt among

51:52

many of them for government is going to

51:54

Greece, their entry into the realm of the

51:57

political elite. That's it for me though.

51:59

Ten what was gravitas? The fact of the

52:01

late nineteen nineties tech? maybe it's the age

52:03

of information. My mother's. Till. Next

52:05

week by. Centers

52:10

and his intention in

52:12

Vienna. Entering T. Tiffin

52:15

summons. Seats.

52:20

Three, He'll take a seat.

52:23

Basic precautions, may I make

52:25

sense? Since I've seen. Wound

52:27

old is he can. He

52:30

rotates asian used to defend. Her.

52:34

Osu concealed now

52:36

it depends on

52:38

Tuesdays. Here.

52:42

Is a super super

52:44

learn taxes heard of

52:47

their own game is

52:49

is has. Since

52:51

you can keep your cars in that

52:53

sense, I suggest you seek a seamless.

52:58

One thousand T. James.