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accident. This.

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Week We're connecting the dots between

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viral dance videos, election interference, and

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I know, I know, How are

0:49

all these things connected? Well, we're

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going to find out. With Npr

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Tech Correspondent Bobby Alan and Npr

0:56

Congressional Correspondent Deirdre Walsh Body Deirdre

0:58

Welcome to it's been a minute.

1:00

I Britney Thanks Rivalry Pay. Going

1:02

to be here. Could have you both

1:05

good having both. Are it so to

1:07

get into things. This week, President Biden

1:09

signed a law that would ban Tic

1:12

Toc in the United States if it's

1:14

parent company Like Dance doesn't sell the

1:16

social media platform within a year now.

1:19

Bobby Deirdre I think it could be

1:21

both surprising and unsurprising that this happened

1:23

this week and this fast. did you

1:26

see this coming? Okay,

1:28

so I think yes and no yes. Many

1:30

inside Tic Toc were really caught off guard

1:32

by the lightning speed that this move through

1:34

Congress and was signed by Biden Know in

1:36

that I mean how many times are we

1:38

going to read Tic Toc is about to

1:40

be banned and headline brain. As a tech

1:42

reporter, I have been writing about it a

1:45

lot, right? I went into our internal systems

1:47

are Npr and I typed in Tic Toc

1:49

Ban and my name and found that I've

1:51

written eighty eight stories on Tic Toc Band

1:53

so I'm fatigued with it. Many people are

1:55

fatigued with the i think it just for

1:57

some. Just seems like Groundhog Day. Honestly,

2:02

Here is Deirdre. One thing I can't help but

2:04

think about is. How. All

2:06

this is coming. As politicians regardless

2:09

of political party have become more

2:11

and more skeptical of big tech

2:13

companies I mean, Google, Apple Matter,

2:15

and Amazon are all facing losses

2:18

from government as we speak. But

2:20

Tic Toc is the first to

2:22

be threatened to shut down Know

2:25

Tic that his own by a

2:27

Chinese companies. And I wonder is

2:29

that would make this easier for politicians

2:31

to get on board with is a

2:34

sign of how much of a bogeyman

2:36

the Chinese government is in our political

2:38

world. Today it's I'm also thinking about

2:40

how this legislation came from a bipartisan

2:43

select committee on China, right? I do

2:45

think that the ownership of the parent

2:47

company was the driving force and I

2:50

talked to Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Mark

2:52

Warner about this and he's like, look,

2:54

I have majored data privacy concerns about

2:56

how all of users' Data American

2:58

users' data is being shared on

3:01

other platforms That for him he

3:03

just came back to the difference

3:05

between. China. And

3:07

he thinks that's the difference maker

3:10

thing. We can have a separate

3:12

conversation about what kind of evidence

3:14

there is, whether or not that

3:16

parent company is for sure sharing

3:18

users' data with the Chinese Communist

3:20

Party. There is a law that

3:22

if they are ass, they have

3:25

to, but there's I never. We

3:27

don't have any concrete examples that

3:29

that's happening with. American

3:31

politicians are concerned about the relationship

3:33

between the Chinese government and Tic

3:35

Tacs parent company By Dance. They're

3:37

also concerned about any possible influence

3:39

the Chinese government to have on

3:42

the apps. One hundred seventy million

3:44

American users. Which is about half of

3:46

the United States population, Yeah to on people.

3:48

It also additionally or are around one third. Of

3:51

Americans under thirty, so one third

3:53

of young Americans. Get their

3:55

news from. To. Talk and

3:57

there's you know, some debate over how

3:59

much. Talk is manipulating the content

4:01

that the app seeds up. His

4:04

sister emphasizing. Or deemphasizing

4:06

content based on Chinese interest.

4:09

Or had. This is something that I

4:11

hear all the time is are some

4:13

by dance employee in Beijing behind the

4:16

Kerr and and in the sinister away

4:18

tinkering with the leavers of the Tic

4:20

Toc algorithm to push road sign a

4:22

content to millions of Americans and the

4:25

answer is no Rain use to talks

4:27

parent company is based in Beijing. And

4:29

yes, they have a very powerful hyper

4:32

personalize algorithm that is optimized for engagement

4:34

meaning it's meant to keep you locked

4:36

into the app for as long as

4:38

possible. But it's hyper personalized. If

4:41

you're really into surfing, you're gonna see

4:43

a lot of surfing videos. If you're

4:45

really into rug beats, your feet of

4:47

can be full of rugby videos and

4:49

so on. There's no evidence to this

4:51

point yet to suggests that Tic Toc

4:53

is pushing pro China views over anything

4:55

else frame but that C or is

4:57

real and that theorists animating law makers

5:00

and that fear you know really has

5:02

stirred a lot of worries about whether

5:04

or not Tic Toc is a National

5:06

Security threat because it is based in

5:08

China and. In China we know because

5:10

of of national intelligence has in that

5:13

country is Chinese officials wanted to put

5:15

their finger on the scale and pollute

5:17

the minds of a generation of young

5:20

people. I guess they theoretically could and

5:22

during the Trump yours went from crackdown

5:24

on Tic Toc and try to put

5:26

out of business and the case went

5:29

to a federal courts. Even several judges

5:31

have said it looks like the national

5:33

Security threat that Tic Toc supposedly poses

5:36

is really theoretical more than anything else.

5:38

So yes, There's a fear. Yes, it

5:40

could hypothetically happened, but we just haven't seen

5:42

it yet to since it To get more

5:44

specific on this topic of. Different

5:46

kinds of political views on Tic.

5:49

Toc And and what? The app me

5:51

so more of or less as I'm

5:53

wondering about the Israel, Hamas or or

5:55

or you know, the conflict between Israel

5:57

and Palestine right now a Wall Street

5:59

Journal. Isis found that Tic

6:01

Toc promotes content against. Israel.

6:04

And it's worth noting that it china

6:06

has a seemingly taken a more pro

6:08

Palestinian stance at the same time. Young

6:11

people. United States, Are more likely to

6:13

be on tic toc than Americans of older

6:15

age groups. And there's statistically more likely

6:17

to be pro Palestine and pro Israel.

6:19

Do you think that this could be

6:21

from Tic Tacs influence? Or or is

6:24

this the politics of it's. Users Ray

6:26

of this is really been a huge

6:28

issues to lawmakers in Washington and have

6:30

sparked all sorts of debate on mine.

6:32

And yeah, there have been some analyses

6:34

that have found Love Free Palestine Hashtag

6:36

has been seen millions and millions more

6:38

times than the Stand with Israel has

6:40

had on Tic Toc. But you know,

6:42

when you look at any other major

6:44

social media platform be it's Twitter or

6:46

Instagram or any of the other big

6:48

ones, you're seeing the same patterns of

6:50

more pro Palestinian content and pro Israel

6:52

contents. And it's or the chicken chicken

6:55

or a Problem Rights Are young people

6:57

going to social media platforms and seeing

6:59

videos and seeing content that already confirmed

7:01

sir pre existing beliefs? Or are these

7:03

platforms sort of pushing them in the

7:06

direction of becoming more sympathetic what the

7:08

Palestinian cause? And it's really hard to

7:10

get to the bottom of that. but

7:12

I think Tic Toc is being sort

7:15

of unfairly singled out here. I think

7:17

Tic Toc has become sort of the

7:19

blank canvas that so many people are

7:21

projecting all of their fears about social

7:23

media since. That is sinking. Or who uses

7:25

tic toc the most People under thirty? It's hard

7:28

not to see this Tic tac ban. Is something

7:30

that young people would be mad about?

7:32

Spite this band path pretty unanimously in

7:34

the house in the senate's and Biden

7:36

didn't seem to pause at all in

7:38

signing it into loss. Deirdre are other

7:40

concerns on Capitol Hill that they might

7:42

lose young voters over this. There.

7:44

Are definitely concerns. Lawmakers said

7:47

that overwhelmingly the calls that

7:49

were coming into their offices

7:51

ahead of the votes were

7:53

largely. Sometimes. To to

7:55

one against the band, but lawmakers decided

7:58

they were going to support it. Anyway,

8:00

there was some backlash to some of

8:02

the calls that were coming in because

8:05

Tic Toc to it's adult users pushed

8:07

out and notification that basically said Congress

8:09

is gonna ban Tic Toc Press this

8:11

button, call your lawmaker right away. When

8:14

a lotta center said look, we were

8:16

happy to hear from young people. Some

8:18

of them.on the phone and engaged with

8:21

the people who were calling. Soon Young

8:23

voters are going to be a huge

8:25

factor in the Twenty Twenty Four elections.

8:28

I talked to a lot of senators.

8:30

Around the debate on this in terms

8:32

of like who are you hearing from

8:34

and a lot of them were hearing

8:36

from members of their own family, one

8:38

Senator Mike Reference from South Dakota literally

8:41

pulled up a text on his phone

8:43

from his granddaughter after the house passed

8:45

the bill and said grandpa, are you

8:47

gonna ban tic toc. What? It's

8:49

happening l Oh well. And

8:51

I just came back with an fellow.

8:53

Well exclamation point. Five thousand. Appropriate response.

8:55

She came back of the will. They

8:58

decide to nice hours and the house

9:00

has already passed. It's loud comes to

9:02

the senate. Don't know when we will

9:04

look at it might be a few

9:06

days or even weeks. Oh okay, he.

9:08

Was persuadable and his own granddaughter was

9:11

lobbying him. I guess. Embrace our family,

9:13

come home to fifty pieces and I

9:15

can't. But also think about like the

9:17

timing of all of this biden signing

9:19

this into law seals especially notable. During.

9:22

A week that. We're. Still

9:24

seeing so many young people

9:26

protesting against our government it's

9:28

foreign policy against institutions of

9:31

higher learning their their colleges

9:33

and universities. The timing feels

9:35

really notable that this to

9:37

tough ban during. This. Time. We're seeing

9:39

so many young people out in the streets being

9:41

politically active, And it's the same

9:43

person his signing the ban as

9:45

the same person. They're protesting against

9:47

rights and I think that's why

9:49

potentially saw for President Trump. Putting.

9:52

That message out there on social media?

9:54

Hey, it's Biden doing this. Not nice.

9:58

At It's important to note that. It's looking

10:00

like this law is going to go through

10:02

the court so sweet and maybe some time.

10:05

Before any real impact will be felt

10:07

on the app. But Deirdre Bobby I

10:09

have learned so much here. think people

10:11

so much. Thanks for having us Britney!

10:13

Thanks As a thank you I'd like to

10:15

teach you something. I playing a little thing

10:18

with you off keys to ground for time

10:20

to honor Yes Deathly Get will be right

10:22

back with little game I like to call

10:24

for. Did. You know, stick around.

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11:58

D O Sea Hell. Slash

12:00

what's your why? All

12:07

right, All right, we're gonna. Play a little game

12:09

I like to call for. Did you know?

12:13

Here's how it works. I'm. Gonna share a story

12:15

that the making the headlines this week and

12:17

as I give you some background. On

12:19

the stories are also ask you trivia

12:21

related to it's the don't worry. Is

12:24

all multiple choice fields First

12:26

one to blurt out the

12:28

right answer disappoints person with

12:30

most points wins and course

12:32

as every week their prize

12:34

is bragging rights or he

12:36

already? Yes Yep all right.

12:38

So the category for this week's

12:40

game is a guy sitting sitting.

12:42

so weird because of it's. to

12:44

start the boys are fighting and

12:46

by the boys I mean Drake

12:49

and seemingly the entire world. Hip

12:51

Hop Trade has been trading does

12:53

tracks with Kendrick Lamar for weeks

12:55

now and last week streak snapped

12:57

back with another track and on

12:59

it he used Ai technology to

13:01

mimic the voice. Of which

13:03

bees reapers Was it a

13:06

centric? Lamar be a notorious?

13:08

The I G for see

13:10

two packs a core. It

13:14

was Kendrick was gonna. Go. With to Pox

13:17

sending Deirdre, you are correct. The

13:19

answer is see to pack support. Really!

13:22

And not only does he use a I

13:24

to mimic to park. Who. Is famously

13:27

no Longer Living Strict Also use a

13:29

I to mimic snoop. Dogg who

13:31

is. Famously Still Alive Soup, of course,

13:33

responded the best way possible by posting

13:35

a video where he said. They.

13:38

They look at all the. How

13:40

are you sure? Going

13:43

back to bed. good night. And

13:45

honestly, I was at the same thing. May

13:47

be two parts of state has a a

13:49

lawsuit says he has another me as your

13:52

actually write a lawyer. Representing two packs,

13:54

a state sent straight a cease

13:56

and desist letter. Threatening. Losses So

13:58

oh really. oh there you go

14:00

know I have a few apps

14:02

and the when I know it's

14:04

crazy it sounded. Some more ai news

14:06

to pack is not the only artist being

14:08

resurrected. The. Artificial Intelligence

14:11

a new installation in St.

14:13

Petersburg, Florida allows patrons. To

14:15

talk to which one of these

14:17

artists is a sort of oh

14:19

keith. Be Salvador Dali

14:22

or see. Andy. Warhol

14:24

were all would say you yeah,

14:26

go with Warhol as well. Well

14:28

unfortunately your profile on this one.

14:31

Now don't answer is. Be Salvador Dali

14:34

and a new exhibit. A Dali

14:36

Museum early Petersburg, Florida Make sense.

14:38

Dali museum patrons can pick up

14:40

a replica of the artists. same

14:42

that lobster phones. I personally. Would

14:44

love lobster sorts of stuff. It's original. Than all

14:47

of life's about anything lobster. Anything

14:49

Love Cyclist. So they pick up the

14:51

phone and they ask the artificial dolly anything

14:53

they want. For example, you could say dolly,

14:55

why did you make so many cops melt

14:57

I think I would probably ask dallied, do

14:59

you want to be artificially replicated but that's

15:01

just the question that I would ask. Yeah,

15:03

and how do they get the transferred of.

15:07

Success. This apartment above offensive

15:09

adults. Have a to reach out

15:12

to score Bobby, you are at Zero

15:14

points Deirdre, you're. At one point I would

15:16

love an underdog so was go with either.

15:18

The same as a combat combat. I feel

15:20

like a eyes, not my. Expertise So

15:22

apparently two parties are. Expertise:

15:24

Focus on a bus or

15:26

A. Here is our final.

15:28

Question: What are the most popular movies

15:31

on Netflix right now? Is a true

15:33

crime documentary? Called what Jennifer did and

15:35

I'll be honest, I don't know what

15:37

she did, but I do know. That

15:40

a lot of internet sleuths are

15:42

outraged over what they claim to

15:44

be a I generated images, you

15:46

still the story. There was something

15:48

up with Jennifer's body. Which.

15:50

Is these distorted human body

15:53

parts made the sleuths suspicious?

15:56

Was it a sin? First

15:58

hair Be. Jennifer the

16:00

kneecap. For. See. Jennifer.

16:03

Singers. Wow this is a

16:05

total guess but under under the same

16:07

new cat just because legs tend to

16:09

be an issue with a i generated

16:12

images but maybe I'm totally wrong as

16:14

as total guess to me some with

16:16

the you Deirdre. Ah, I'm

16:18

the Say thinkers. The answer is

16:20

see there's a you are correct. Jennifer.

16:23

Singer not org as. Such.

16:27

So Jennifer's giving the peace sign.

16:29

In. One of the images using documentary

16:31

am not a lack of see me

16:34

image in her fingers do with Wilde

16:36

now and ya requested comment on this

16:38

matter and Netflix has denied any use

16:40

of a I but the director did

16:43

at Mit to doctoring some photos that

16:45

were used as a documentary and censored

16:47

fact. Singers and hands have proven to

16:49

be one of the hardest things for

16:52

in or generators to replicate and legs

16:54

to Bobby says and legs to have

16:56

legs So also words, words, ideas, If

16:58

you try to get Gen Vi tool to just

17:00

put an English word always scramble the letters is

17:02

supposed to be the most advanced technology and world

17:05

in a car wash. Our basic word. the

17:07

same evil saw have job that. Maybe

17:09

so. I. Was of the things up and other than that of

17:11

a set of. Our it

17:13

will. That. Is it for? But

17:16

did you know for this week?

17:18

according to our. Very.

17:20

Intense and complex scoring system. Deirdre,

17:23

you are the winner was two

17:25

points. Congratulations on your when am

17:27

I an Ai expert now. I'm

17:30

excellent ip address. I'll be the next

17:32

time you come on. That will be

17:35

the addition to your title. And

17:37

a I like it was. While

17:39

Bobby and Deirdre thank you so much for

17:41

joining the Today. This is great Those underneath

17:44

thanks to Examine that was Npr. Bobby Allen

17:46

and years or walls were. Gonna take a

17:48

quick break and when we get back

17:50

into the phenomenon of track live the

17:52

latest trend of being a quote traditional

17:55

life and what says about women's labour

17:57

today? like I'll have that adding. A

17:59

right there. This.

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Zoe who can explain and

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to. Essentially care for

20:41

her husband and children. Zoe.

20:44

Went deep. On Track Wives and an

20:46

essay for Dissent Magazine. It's. A

20:48

woman who almost kind of

20:50

cause plays at being a

20:52

traditional house ways. It's social

20:55

media right? So everything.the tried

20:57

life puts out is going

20:59

to be a fantasy. Now,

21:02

while I think there's nothing wrong with

21:04

women wind to stay home though, he

21:06

says there's something deeper going on with

21:08

the lifestyle there's showcasing and how it

21:10

speaks to the women watching it I

21:13

sat down with So it's to hear

21:15

more about what the track wife says,

21:17

about how women feel about work, what

21:19

they're afraid of, and the consequences of

21:21

Trad Weiss influence in our culture. Zoe.

21:27

Muslim to it's been a minute. Think so much for

21:29

having me. Or pleasure. It's our pleasure.

21:31

This is a topic have

21:34

been was eating. Something at the

21:36

bit to get into or something or

21:38

travelers today. So to start things off, can

21:40

you name some of the towns that. You

21:42

think of most when you think about tried

21:44

by. Content So sore. So I think

21:47

probably the most famous account by now

21:49

is Ballerina Farm a salary in a

21:51

bar or New Euro? Say that I

21:53

sell the people a ballerina farmers. She's

21:56

probably one of the most popular tried

21:58

wise right now, making Clinton. And her

22:00

whole stack is the she lives on

22:02

this farm to used to be a

22:04

dancer actually New York City and she's

22:06

sort of less that life behind to

22:09

care for her husband. Unlike. Kids.

22:11

There while doing serve the daily

22:13

upkeep. Of a farm. A lot of her

22:16

videos show her kind of like making. Bread.

22:19

From Scratch. Okay, so we're starting

22:21

off with a very. Strong sourdough

22:24

starter. That's the secret

22:26

to a successful. Sourdough Love.

22:29

Seeing. All of her kids as

22:31

are kind of clamoring and the camera.

22:35

Some silly rebel or in a farm

22:37

because see is a former. Ballet dancer

22:39

sees Julie are trained and I

22:42

think they just have their a.

22:45

Child. I find it more than a

22:47

few of the women. Who become trapped wives

22:49

or make tried way contents. Are

22:51

often like well educated or. Had

22:53

some sort of the career outside

22:56

of you're working in the home

22:58

and taking care of their children

23:00

and husband's. And that makes me think about.

23:02

Sort of the difference between a

23:05

traveler has today and for additional

23:07

fifty cents was one of his

23:09

new ways. That. For adviser

23:11

package that how does this with

23:13

different today than that nineteen sixties

23:15

ideal. I. Think that's actually

23:17

really crucial. Like a lot is

23:19

todd wives the way they narrate.

23:22

Their. Life Stories. Usually

23:25

involves some kind of

23:27

conversion moment. There's usually.

23:30

This. Throw or the story.

23:32

that's like I used to be a

23:34

working woman. I used to be like

23:36

everybody else is trying to make a

23:39

career, trying to make it in in

23:41

the city. And then I sort of

23:43

realize that era of my ways. I

23:45

realize outlays was never going to bring

23:47

me happiness. I don't long for

23:49

a dream job or dream about the day I

23:52

can go back to work. This is

23:54

my dream job. This is the greatest

23:56

work I will. Ever do. And

23:58

I think that can. There's a narrative

24:01

is actually extremely employer in further

24:03

tried ways because it really shows

24:05

how today being a todd waste.

24:07

Now. A choice. It's an

24:10

option among. A.

24:12

Whole set of possibilities for

24:14

women and it's that's also

24:16

what makes it quite political

24:18

re as the decision to

24:20

abandon. What is

24:22

expected of a modern

24:25

woman and choose this

24:27

way of life.is. Actually,

24:31

Now plate difficult to lead, because

24:33

now it's really, really difficult to

24:35

have just one person supporting an

24:37

entire family. And I think. The.

24:40

Way that travelers often says

24:42

to sizes is actually A

24:44

By incorporating this critique of

24:46

work into her clinton tell

24:48

me more About Them Yeah,

24:51

I mean is that critique

24:53

of work is really compelling?

24:55

Like who doesn't feel exhausted?

24:58

At work who doesn't feel exploited

25:00

by their job? You know when

25:02

you're on your daily commute And

25:04

the and he ate his breaking

25:06

down. Like. Who doesn't

25:08

feel. Tired and

25:10

frustrated. and sort of repelled

25:13

by that. Because as working

25:15

thing as not for me like this

25:17

whole drop our Ceo I want to

25:19

climb the corporate ladder no thank you

25:22

and I think the tried waste taps

25:24

into those feelings as feelings of discontents

25:26

and really really exploits some like I

25:28

understand that works as he got to

25:30

be received some money because things are

25:32

expensive out here. but it's like and

25:34

you to have you way one hundred

25:36

percent having kids and getting married and

25:39

be able to. Her husband is like

25:41

the ultimately. My freedom. Does.

25:43

He mention that many people feel disrespected

25:45

at their jobs, people are exhausted computing

25:47

you doing with to the all of

25:50

the mess of like be a person

25:52

who works outside the home every day

25:54

I want to talk about another tip

25:56

a critique that you often see him.

25:58

Tried my content. The creators I

26:00

think a little. Less veiled and a

26:03

little more blatant. What's the critiques of

26:05

Feminism? Talk to me about the critiques

26:07

of feminism that are in trapped by

26:10

content. I said I tried

26:12

Live Content Relief produces these critiques

26:14

as of not as feminism, but

26:16

like a secure of the feminist

26:18

who is sort of portrayed as

26:20

as dour, one hand who is

26:23

overly political, who hates man and

26:25

is secretly unhappy. The Tried Ways

26:27

is able to insist that she's

26:29

not straining and the way that

26:31

the modern day feminist is because

26:33

she knows her place and she's

26:36

accepted at how. people still not

26:38

realize how feminism is a sham.

26:40

it's assume. I'm telling you

26:42

it is. Robert is robbery of womanhood.

26:44

He says my thing. Is like everything

26:46

they push for as opposite of what

26:49

actually truly makes woman happy and fulfilled.

26:51

They. Kind of imply like it's

26:54

not actually the sort of

26:56

nineteen sixties model of housewife

26:58

free that's outdated. It's actually

27:00

feminisms that we can now

27:02

leave behind. It It's so

27:04

interesting the idea that feminisms like

27:06

this and to sell promise that

27:09

lasts. Lots. Of women with these

27:11

and singing. Lives when. Another

27:13

way of looking at that is

27:15

that perhaps it's not semitism but

27:17

sexism and misogyny that systemically to

27:19

be producing. Mm says he floats.

27:21

I could see though how that

27:23

to be a compelling message. Also

27:26

say that like it's something that's

27:28

had was all appear to have

27:30

is an abundance of time. There's

27:32

something really appealing. About having a life for

27:34

you Have. Time. To.

27:36

Spend hours making marshmallows

27:38

or granola from. Scratch.

27:41

So many people I know

27:43

have so little time. To

27:45

do these little projects it's really can

27:47

feel unattainable or aspiration all many women

27:49

try whether or not. I think

27:52

would love to have more time to spend with their

27:54

families. Are loved ones or partners? Totally

27:56

and I think we talk

27:58

about like. The cheek of

28:00

Capitalism that can sound really, really vague by

28:03

I think a way to make it more

28:05

concrete is to say. The.

28:08

Tried ways. Points.

28:10

Out that we don't have control. Over

28:12

how we manage. And

28:14

live our daily lives right going

28:17

into words. You're not just being

28:19

exploited, but you're actually being forced

28:21

to spend your time in service

28:24

to. Accompany or affirm

28:26

or. A business that you don't

28:28

necessarily have any kind of organic

28:30

feeling of loyalty towards or connection

28:32

to the idea that you can

28:35

escape from that. And.

28:37

Take back your time and use that time.

28:40

For the people that you actually care about,

28:42

that's extremely appealing. I want to be a

28:44

save on only one either. only the breadwinner.

28:46

I do not want to do that. No

28:49

one owns his own To be home. I

28:51

would be cooking in the kitchen

28:53

own, be cleaning owners shopping own

28:55

and he's making brownies own. Be cooking

28:58

dinner. And. Someone like Norris

29:00

mess so I would say is maybe like. Currently

29:03

the second most popular or well

29:05

now yeah, assess the first shirt

29:07

crow said it was. Popular can

29:09

have tried was figure and also like

29:11

notably Treadwell of. Color. Yeah Nora

29:13

Smith to see someone who you know does

29:16

that kind of thing of like making marshmallows

29:18

from scratch. My to others have been has

29:20

confirmed marshmallows ever since. We men are.

29:22

So today I decided to suppress

29:25

them by making some scented candle

29:27

marshmallows. Started than these

29:29

painstaking meal of. That.

29:32

To other people seem and say. I

29:36

think this a subtext of it is

29:38

look at how much time I was.

29:41

right? I can if

29:43

I want to spend

29:46

an entire morning figuring

29:48

out how to. Make.

29:51

A peanut butter and jelly sandwich

29:53

from four ingredients with nothing that

29:56

store bought. That is

29:58

like an incredible, incredible luxury. I

30:00

will say that tried was

30:03

been able to flaunt her

30:05

time. That is also and

30:07

away a fantasy cause. Even.

30:10

If she's not working. For.

30:12

Another business or she's not working outside

30:14

the home she is so often working.

30:17

She is a content creators is an

30:19

influencer and if she gets big enough

30:21

and popular enough she is monetizing the

30:24

videos or or the posts that she's

30:26

putting out right leg. The video will

30:28

say track life. Put. The

30:30

baby tell is saying girl boss is

30:33

interesting like that makes me think about

30:35

this sort of race component that I

30:37

see. Around a lot of trouble. Clinton

30:39

and why it's it does seal notable

30:41

when a woman of color like North

30:43

with becomes such a. Popular tried wife

30:46

content creator Part of why that

30:48

may be appealing to some women

30:50

of color in my keys Specifically

30:52

about black with it's is that's.

30:55

American. Black women historically were

30:57

often domestic workers and. A.

30:59

Lot of the less pleasant details:

31:01

the scrubbing, in some cases, the

31:04

nursing and rearing have children. A

31:06

lot of those things. Were. Done by

31:08

black woman in white women's homes. I

31:10

could see how is a part

31:12

of your lineage is like. That

31:15

you are a mother or your grandmother

31:17

on T is great Grandmother were domestic

31:19

workers in Might Women's Holmes who. Didn't.

31:22

Have the opportunity to care for their

31:24

children or their homes in the same

31:26

way or to have a more leisurely.

31:28

Life I could see how.

31:31

Thread. With read does seem

31:33

like it appealing Alternative. Absolutely

31:36

and of you're a woman of

31:38

color In the sort of critique

31:40

as the outside world as a

31:43

place of exploitation and discrimination becomes

31:45

even more acute, the tried wife

31:47

image can feel almost like compensation

31:50

for that number is that comes

31:52

with. That. Price right? Which is

31:54

that you have to. Always defer to your

31:57

husband. Yes Yes Yes

31:59

Yes Yes. Tried Wives

32:01

as you've written very

32:03

often, reject both. Capitalism.

32:06

And. Salmon is so

32:08

that's like a lot to

32:10

hold already at once. but

32:12

you also say that there

32:14

is a sphere coming through

32:16

in this track. Vice Fantasy:

32:18

A fear of the outside

32:20

world. And the men

32:22

in it were women reacting. To

32:24

hear through trad life. I

32:27

think you know if you watch. These.

32:29

Videos It becomes first of all

32:31

very apparent that. They. Almost

32:33

have a kind of. Lonely

32:36

aspect to them. They're not

32:38

videos of a woman. Hanging

32:41

out with friends or spending time

32:43

with a community spirit isolated the

32:45

tribe. Isis very isolated. It's. Very

32:48

very isolated. the tried life really only

32:50

spends time with one man which is

32:52

her husband and other man in a

32:55

male friends. Coworkers obviously they're

32:57

not in the picture is

32:59

just. The tried wife or husband. Or

33:02

children. and then her very beautiful

33:04

like physical space that she gets

33:06

to enjoy with them. And of

33:08

course, her husband is away at

33:11

work the majority of the day,

33:13

so she's actually managed to limit

33:15

her contact with men and of

33:17

really drastic fashion as is all

33:19

speculation, but I wonder how much

33:21

of that is a reaction to

33:24

me to write when all of

33:26

these women began showing these stories

33:28

of being abused, not just by

33:30

men in general, but. By coworkers

33:32

are people that these women knew

33:35

personally rate colleagues. Bosses like me

33:37

to is about the workplace that

33:39

work could make you vulnerable. absolutely.

33:41

And I think a lot of

33:44

women came out of that experience

33:46

ceiling almost like it was. Impossible.

33:50

To. Trust. Individual. Mess.

33:53

I think there was a

33:55

sense that all of these

33:57

stories of violence were unearthed

33:59

and then. Really resolved.

34:01

And we never figured out

34:03

how. We. Could address

34:05

sign and as structural or

34:07

a systematic way and I

34:10

can see how I tried

34:12

was. Reacting. Said I

34:14

would say. Okay, what

34:16

if I can just leave our all

34:18

behind? Choose. One man who

34:20

actually don't really have to spend that

34:22

much time with because he's always at

34:25

work and feel safer. But. Family.

34:27

Life. Can. Be actually

34:29

extremely dangerous for women mates. A

34:32

woman is more likely to be.

34:35

Killed. By her husband, by her

34:37

romantic partner. then she is by a

34:39

stranger on the street. It's.

34:41

Almost as like the way you're describing it,

34:44

like perhaps the devil. You. Know.

34:47

Is better than the one you don't. Yeah,

34:49

I mean, I think the whole

34:52

sort of movement of Lean and

34:54

Salmon asem did actually acknowledged like

34:56

the workplace is unfair for women,

34:58

right? Sheryl Sandberg. Book of tips

35:00

and strategies for women on how the

35:03

more assertive and workplace in the face

35:05

of sexism. And the

35:07

way that you resolve that

35:09

is by individually asserting yourself.

35:12

Quote. Unquote, leaning in negotiating these

35:14

power dynamics and trying to

35:16

come out on top. And

35:18

that sort of solution being

35:20

prescribed by leaning feminism also

35:23

required woman to kind of

35:25

like. Move. Through

35:27

this world and constantly be

35:29

on guard, it can produce

35:31

a lot of frustration and

35:33

so instead of having to

35:35

always be negotiating, Power.

35:37

Dynamics. In the outside

35:39

world, why not just settle for one power

35:42

dynamic that even if you're on the sort

35:44

of inferior side of it, you at least

35:46

know where you stand. If you don't want

35:48

kids that you want to a stay at

35:50

home mom hear me out, be a say

35:53

on Wise and said but only if you

35:55

have a golden retriever has then Ivy what

35:57

I had to the golden Retriever here are

35:59

the qualities: Number one: They are not controlling.

36:01

They don't tell you what to do, they

36:04

don't tell you where to go, and they.

36:06

Certainly. Right? And you're

36:08

at least also being

36:10

given this sense of

36:12

love and care in

36:14

return. Where

36:17

the consequences. Of the tribe, wife

36:19

influence on our greater culture. I.

36:22

Think for me what feels

36:24

like serve most alarming consequence

36:27

is at tribal content encourages

36:29

people and specifically women to

36:32

withdraw from the public sphere.

36:34

I feel like. By.

36:37

Idealizing the home, the tried

36:39

wise, Induces us to saying

36:41

that the outside world is just. Not.

36:44

Worth participating in and I

36:46

think that's actually a horrible

36:49

consequences for both political reasons,

36:51

but also for individual people

36:53

rates. We. Are sustained by

36:56

our connections to the outside

36:58

world, where sustained our chance

37:00

encounters with strangers or people

37:02

we don't know. I

37:04

think that's something we should really push

37:06

against this kind of privatization of lies.

37:09

Who. Who are they? So what if

37:11

a woman just wants to stay at home?

37:14

And isn't thinking about all this. What's wrong

37:16

with that? I always wanna stay at.

37:21

Peace Days of so I related

37:24

and I don't necessarily think there's

37:26

anything wrong with it, but I

37:29

think it's really hard. And

37:31

are day and age. To. Make thoughts

37:33

and. Neutral political choice.

37:36

Given. How. Politicised

37:39

gender. Relations.

37:41

Have become given

37:43

now Politicize. Sort of

37:46

individual lifestyles that women

37:48

choose between. All. Of

37:50

that has become is a subject

37:52

for. Political Debate: I

37:54

think it's very hard in our time

37:56

to live a politically neutral place. Though

38:01

thank you so much for coming out. This

38:03

was really really interesting. Thank you so much.

38:06

Thanks again to Zoe who you can

38:08

find her essay about Try Voice and

38:10

Descent Magazine. This.

38:17

Episode of it's Been a Minute was

38:19

produced by Parker What Alexis Williams. Liam

38:22

Mcbain. Corey Antonio Rose.

38:24

This episode was edited by

38:26

Jessica Patek engineering support. Came

38:28

from David Greenberg are executive

38:30

producer is Vera Lynn Williams

38:32

are V P A Programming

38:34

is. Yolanda Sanguine. All right. That's

38:36

all for this episode of it's been

38:39

a Minute from Npr. I'm Britney

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