0:00

Hey , inside the Mix podcast fans . This

0:02

is Jay Gilbert from your Morning Coffee podcast

0:05

and newsletter where you can stay on top of

0:07

the new music business . At yourmorningcoffee

0:10

you are listening to the Inside

0:12

the Mix podcast . Here's your host , mark

0:15

Matthews . Take it away , mark .

0:17

Hello and welcome to the Inside the Mix podcast

0:19

. I'm Mark Matthews , your host , musician

0:21

, producer and mix and mastering engineer

0:24

. You've come to the right place if you want to know

0:26

more about your favorite synth music artists

0:28

, music engineering and production , songwriting

0:30

and the music industry . I've

0:33

been writing , producing , mixing and mastering music for

0:35

over 15 years and I want to share what

0:37

I've learned with you . Hello , folks

0:39

, and welcome back to the Inside the Mix

0:41

podcast . If you are a new listener

0:43

, please do hit that subscribe button and

0:46

if you are a returning listener , as always

0:48

, a huge welcome back . So

0:50

in this episode , I am joined by Mike

0:52

Indovina of the Master your Mix

0:54

podcast , and it's a fantastic discussion

0:56

that we have and you're going to get loads out of this episode

0:59

. So to begin with , we start at

1:01

what Mike wish he knew

1:03

now that he knew when he started

1:05

20 years ago , or notably

1:08

what he would like to change , and we discussed

1:10

networking and how that has changed over the

1:12

last 20 years . Then we

1:14

look at freelancing versus working as

1:16

an intern and how

1:18

those two have their place and which

1:20

one would be the preferred

1:22

choice . Then we look at and discuss

1:24

how creating a portfolio

1:26

of work can help you versus actually

1:28

working as an intern . Then we discuss

1:31

mastering and , in particular , the myths and

1:33

misconceptions surrounding mastering , and

1:35

then we look at the two different parts of mastering . So that's

1:37

behind the scenes , getting a record ready

1:40

for distribution and actually finessing

1:42

a master itself . Then

1:44

we look at client and project red flags and

1:46

what a mastering engineer would look out for . We

1:49

also discuss where to begin with mastering . So

1:51

where should you start ? What is the most

1:53

important topic of mastering that you

1:55

should start with if you are new to

1:57

mastering and you want to get into that particular

2:00

discipline ? So , folks , it's a fantastic

2:03

episode . I'm not going to waffle on too much , but what I

2:05

do want to make you aware of is my five

2:07

essential free mastering plugins

2:09

guide , available at synthmusicmasteringcom

2:12

forward slash podcast . Let's

2:15

dive into the episode . Hey , folks , in this

2:17

episode I'm very excited to welcome

2:19

our guest today , mike Indovina

2:21

. So Mike is a recording , mixing and

2:24

mastering engineer who has worked with hundreds

2:26

of artists in various genres , including

2:28

punk rock , pop , hip hop

2:30

and more , and with over

2:32

20 years of studio experience , he's gained a reputation

2:35

as an engineer with sharp attention to detail

2:37

. He's also an author of a number

2:39

one Amazon bestselling book , the Mixing

2:41

Mindset the step by step formula for creating

2:44

professional rock mixes from your home studio . I'll put a

2:46

link to that in the podcast notes . Mike

2:48

, thank you for joining me today . How are you ? Thanks for having

2:50

me , mark , I'm doing well , fantastic

2:53

stuff . So for the audience listening , I

2:55

sort of made contact with Mike as I had been

2:57

listening to the Master your Mix podcast

3:00

and I reached out to Mike because , being

3:03

a music podcast , it'd be great to have another

3:05

music podcast on the podcast itself . I

3:07

don't know how many times I could say podcast in one sentence

3:09

, but I think I did about three or four .

3:10

There it's a bit of a tongue twister .

3:12

It is , isn't it ? Yeah ? And another

3:14

great thing about your podcast is I've actually had

3:17

guests from your podcast on this one . I've

3:19

been listening to Nick from Episode 98 . I

3:21

discovered her on your podcast , Daughterboard Audio

3:23

, and reached out to her . And , yeah , fantastic . It's

3:26

such a good episode and the audience loved it as well

3:28

. So , obviously , the audience listening , check out

3:30

and listen to this one first , but then

3:32

do go listen to Episode 98 and also

3:34

the episode on the Master , your Mix podcast as

3:36

well . Yeah , yeah

3:38

, it's great to have you on board . As I say

3:40

, I think this is probably the first time I've interviewed another

3:43

podcast , a music

3:45

podcast that is . So this is going to be great . I thought

3:47

it would be great if we just start with your journeys

3:49

and mix engineer . So you've been doing it for over 20

3:51

years . I think

3:54

one key question would be what is the one thing you know now

3:56

that you wish you knew 20 years ago

3:58

when you started ?

3:59

It's a good question . I mean , looking back at my career , I think

4:01

the

4:03

biggest thing that I would say that if I

4:06

could change anything maybe this is a better way

4:08

of answering that question is like if I could change

4:10

anything . The only thing I wish I did

4:12

better when I was younger is get smarter

4:15

at networking . To be honest , it's

4:17

funny . So I played in bands all

4:20

my life and I hustled

4:22

really hard with my bands and I was very

4:24

determined to make my bands get

4:27

signed or whatever and I would hustle my ass

4:29

off and I had no shame to embarrass

4:31

myself promoting my band . But

4:33

for whatever reason , when it came to promoting the

4:36

studio side of things for me , I was a

4:38

little more reserved about that and I think it was just because

4:40

it was just me . I didn't

4:42

have like four other guys in my

4:44

band who could also do some of

4:46

the work for me . So

4:48

to some degree I was a little shy about that getting

4:51

started with this and

4:53

I very quickly realized as the years went by

4:55

maybe not quickly , but as years went by

4:58

there was all these bands that my band used to play with that

5:00

went on to have really great success and stuff and

5:03

I kind of kicked myself . I

5:05

was like man , we were always tight with

5:07

these other bands . We play shows with them all the time

5:10

, see them very , very frequently . It's like I

5:12

should have been using that opportunity to just get

5:15

better at being a friend with people and being

5:17

top of mind at all times and letting them know that

5:19

I had this other aside from being in a band

5:21

, that I had this other passion and this other thing that I was

5:24

working on in the background , because

5:26

who knows what could have happened right Maybe

5:28

I could have worked with some bigger bands very earlier on in

5:30

my career , something like that . But

5:32

yeah , so definitely I think for anyone getting into this

5:34

industry , it's like networking is definitely a big thing and

5:37

I just wish I had been better at it and

5:39

not as shy about it .

5:42

Yeah , yeah , networking is huge , isn't

5:44

it ? And I know exactly what you mean Running a podcast

5:46

as well . A lot of that , a lot of getting the podcast

5:48

out there , as you probably well know

5:50

, is networking and speaking to individuals

5:53

, because there's only a certain amount you can do or

5:55

money you want to plow into sort of online advertising

5:57

. But networking is huge . So you mentioned

6:00

that . Obviously you've been sort of 20 years . How

6:02

do you think it's changed ? So I

6:04

remember when I was in a band and we would network

6:06

, we'd meet and chat with other bands and

6:08

then we share each other's music as you do , and that's

6:10

still pretty much the same now . I think a lot of it . But

6:13

do you think networking ? I

6:15

suppose social media makes it easier now with

6:17

the short preps of it .

6:19

Oh yeah , I feel like my bands were like pre-internet . You know it

6:22

makes me feel super old thinking about it , but

6:25

and funny enough . So I had one band that you

6:28

know it was kind of my main band for years

6:30

and we had a deal with Universal and

6:32

we did really well for being this small

6:34

Canadian band and

6:37

, as of last week , there was nothing

6:39

on the internet about us . It was just like we

6:41

existed pre-YouTube and stuff like that . And

6:44

then my guitar player just

6:46

last week happened to find this box of

6:48

these eight millimeter home

6:53

films that someone was apparently filming us this

6:55

entire time . So now we have this

6:57

big back catalog of all these videos and stuff . So

6:59

it's cool to see all that and like we're going to get all

7:01

that uploaded . But anyway

7:03

, that's just a big aside . But

7:06

yeah , definitely , social media has made it a lot easier to connect

7:08

with people , right Like back in the day it used to be that

7:10

you had to just you book shows and you

7:12

just email people and

7:14

you just like all you did was just like hang

7:16

out at shows , you know , even if you weren't playing , you just you

7:18

went everywhere and you just got to know people and , like you

7:21

know , you'd kind of see the same faces at shows

7:23

and you , you know , hopefully strike up a conversation

7:25

with those people and maybe that brought

7:27

you in , got you another show or

7:30

whatever , right ? So there was a lot of that

7:32

and there was like also like a little bit of like internet

7:34

stuff where if you looked in the right places you'd

7:36

find like the forums where you know there'd

7:38

be bands looking for people to connect with or

7:40

shows or promoters or whatever . So

7:42

there was definitely that and I think social media has now made it a

7:45

lot more accessible , a lot easier to find

7:47

those people and now you can literally

7:49

look up like you know some

7:51

label and look up like a and r

7:53

with that label name and you'll find whoever that a

7:55

and a in our person is . You know , it's a lot easier to like

7:57

find out who the people in control

7:59

are and , you know , still

8:02

, take the same approach , you know , just email them , write them

8:04

, whatever , yeah , friend them , right . So

8:07

I definitely think that's part of it . I think people are

8:09

going to at least where I live . Like I

8:11

feel like shows aren't as Frequent

8:14

as they used to be , or

8:16

at least like they're getting smaller

8:18

, or maybe just because I'm older now , like there's like a different

8:20

vibe to the crowd , so where it's like you know we're

8:23

playing bar shows , where it's like 19 plus or whatever , and , like

8:25

you know , people are there to drink , not necessarily

8:28

like be there for the music , so I Don't

8:30

know , it's like you just have to kind of like , after

8:33

you do it enough times , you kind of see the same familiar

8:35

faces and then then you kind of get to know like , oh

8:37

, that's who that person is , or you know , yeah

8:39

, I don't know . I think

8:41

like having an old-school approach to , to

8:43

marketing and to networking is still

8:46

very , very valid , you know . But yeah , also

8:48

, if you understand the social media side of things too , then

8:50

it gives you another chance to promote yourself easier

8:52

.

9:15

Yeah , it's . It's very interesting , Isn't it ? Because

9:17

what you say about social media , because I remember when

9:19

I started the podcast and I released my music

9:21

and when I was In a heavy metal band , as the

9:23

audience knows , I pretty much say every episode

9:26

I think , uh , yeah , yeah , I was in

9:28

it for about eight or nine years and I remember we used

9:30

to do the social media thing and emailing , and

9:32

it's only recently that I've gone back to focusing

9:34

on actual Jenna , creating a mailing list

9:37

and like generating and Building

9:39

that mailing list , rather than then building followers

9:41

on social media . So it's very interesting

9:44

how yeah , how

9:46

networking changes over time

9:48

. So , with regards to that network , I mean I don't

9:50

want to hang around on it too long , but yeah , do

9:52

you think it's different ? I suppose it

9:54

would be different networking as a band

9:56

or as a sort of audio engineer

9:58

. Do you take it ? Do you think you would take you take a different

10:01

approach ? Would you still go to a gig and

10:03

approach artists as an audio engineer

10:05

with , like , hey , I mean you won't

10:07

be as blaze saying like , let me mix your record

10:09

, but some people do that .

10:11

Yeah , I know , I know , I Think

10:14

it's like I think , no matter what you just

10:16

have to , nobody

10:18

wants that like that slimy salesman

10:20

kind of thing . Right , we're like it's like hey

10:22

, like , give me your money , I want to work with you . You

10:24

know it's like that doesn't ever work

10:27

well for anyone . So I think it's just like genuine

10:29

, like if you just come from it as a genuine

10:31

person and you know you just

10:33

people like compliments to you know it's

10:35

like , hey , great show . Like you guys are awesome . Like

10:37

you know when can I see you next ? Or you

10:39

know like you just kind of like Maybe that's

10:41

all you need to do to just like show someone

10:43

that you care about their music enough and you want to see

10:46

them again and then maybe see them at

10:48

that next show . And it's like hey , like , yeah , I saw you guys

10:50

at that last show . You know like can't wait to see

10:52

you in tonight , whatever , and then you can maybe strike up a longer conversation

10:54

. You know like sometimes you have to play that long game , but

10:57

at some point you do have to . You

11:00

do you do have to say like , okay , like , yeah , I am

11:02

. If you ever need help , I'm a recording engineer . Like

11:04

you know I can help you out . Yeah

11:06

, you know , let them . I think I think

11:08

the important thing with networking is you have to let people know what

11:10

you do but not be like

11:13

pushy about like give me your money or like

11:15

that kind of thing , right ? Because

11:17

if people know what you do , then Sometimes

11:20

they'll reach out to you when you least expect it , because they

11:22

, you're , they have that in the back of their mind , that oh yeah

11:24

, like Mike is an audio engineer or Mark's an engineer

11:26

as well , like he can record my band , you know . So , yeah

11:30

, there's been lots of gigs where I've had that kind of thing happen , where

11:32

I don't know where someone called me because

11:34

, like I told them I did something years ago and

11:36

when the time was right , they remembered

11:38

me , right , so , yeah , it's

11:40

just , it's just like Just meet

11:42

as many people as you can . You meet a lot of friends along

11:45

the way , which is really cool , and and

11:47

then , yeah , eventually you know good things can

11:49

like work can happen , right , and

11:52

then from there that creates its own snowball . As you build your

11:54

portfolio and as you start to

11:56

Do you work for one

11:59

local band , then the next local band hears about it and

12:01

then it kind of creates that snowball from there .

12:03

Yeah , yeah , excellent . Yeah , it's kind of I

12:05

think I heard it on another podcast what someone

12:07

said I don't know if it's the right term it like friending

12:10

them into submission . Submission might be the wrong word

12:12

to use , but I like it . Yeah

12:14

, yeah , yeah . Yeah , you're kind of doing that and

12:16

I think it's the best way to do it . And I mean

12:18

, I don't know about you , but I frequently get people messaging

12:20

me on social media offering to do xyz

12:23

for me . It's just straight off the bat saying I'll

12:25

create this for you , create that for you , and I'm thinking you

12:27

haven't even , like , shown any interest in what

12:29

I do .

12:31

Yeah , and

12:33

I don't know if you've seen the podcast , but I've seen it

12:35

on the internet . It's like a canned message where you just know .

12:37

It's like sometimes

12:39

they sometimes they don't

12:42

even fill in their own blanks and it's like , hey , first name , yeah

12:44

, exactly , I get it a lot when they put my . I suppose it's easy to do because technically

12:46

I do have like a first name for a last name

12:48

or

12:52

put they'll put it around the wrong way . But I always respond with a

12:54

podcast now and they say , oh , your podcast is great , I've been listening to

12:56

it . I was

12:58

like , oh , what's your favorite episode ? And like , what was the favorite

13:00

topic in it ? I'm which I don't know might be

13:02

quite mean , but then again , if you're gonna

13:04

send these emails out , you're gonna , you're gonna get it . I

13:06

suppose this , this kind of , segues nicely on to my

13:08

next question . So I was listening to the latest episode

13:10

. So today is July the 30th

13:13

for the audience listening of the master you mix podcast

13:15

and it features Dean . I'm gonna try

13:17

and pronounce it correctly . Had you Chris to

13:19

? Yeah , I believe that's .

13:20

I .

13:21

Yeah , and it was really

13:23

interesting . Actually you were discussing freelance

13:26

portfolios versus the studio runner , internship

13:28

and internship , and I thought it was a really cool conversation

13:31

. So you mentioned there about

13:33

networking and building a portfolio . Do

13:35

you tell our audience what you think would be sort of your

13:38

advised route in modern audio engineering

13:41

? Do you think freelance , or ? I suppose

13:43

each one has its place , but which one would you be

13:45

an advocate of ?

13:45

Yeah , I think each has its own place and

13:48

I think that , like the traditional way of building

13:50

your way up the Studio ladder , it's

13:53

becoming harder and harder to do it because these

13:55

big studios are starting to close down and

13:57

there are just Fewer opportunities there for that kind

13:59

of stuff , right . But then

14:01

one thing that I learned very early on in my career

14:03

was that , like I never worked at like a big studio you

14:05

know , I was never like one of the biggest studios in Canada or

14:07

anything like that , like that but like I worked

14:10

for some pretty mid-level studios and One

14:12

of the things that I caught on to pretty early

14:15

at a lot of these places was that they were typically

14:17

owned by an audio engineer themselves

14:19

and I kind of like , you

14:21

know , I would start at these places sometimes as like a runner

14:23

or intern , whatever , and I would work my way

14:26

up . But I kind of very quickly realized , like that's

14:28

as far as I can go I can . I'll never be the

14:30

head engineer of the studio , because the head engineer

14:32

owns this place , you know , and like

14:34

Whenever there's a bigger band

14:36

coming through , they're gonna be the one that takes it , because

14:39

they , they want that credit for themselves , right , and

14:41

I at least at least this is from my experience from

14:43

the studios I was working at I kind of caught that

14:45

and I realized like there was just like there

14:47

was this limit as for how

14:50

, how high I can go in the in the studio company

14:52

rank , and they were also

14:55

in charge of like my money and , like

14:57

you know , they would tell me how much money I was gonna make and this and

14:59

that , and so like I felt very restricted that way

15:01

. And so that's kind of when

15:03

I started to like go the freelance route , because

15:05

I realized like okay , like I , if

15:08

at the end of the day , all I'm trying to do here is like build up

15:10

a portfolio To like show that I'm

15:12

skilled with this stuff , then like I can do that . You

15:14

know , I'll find local bands , I'll start building up that portfolio

15:16

and At that point , like

15:18

there's no one to tell me what gigs I can and

15:20

can't take and or how much money

15:23

I can earn , and

15:25

so it kind of just allowed a lot more flexibility

15:27

for me and it gave me to , like you

15:29

know , I was now on my own schedule , so

15:32

like I could take on different gigs . I could

15:34

do live sound , I could do studio work , you know , kind of . I

15:37

did a lot of different jobs in the audio industry because

15:39

I wanted to just get my feet wet , trying to

15:41

take on as much as I could see what I enjoyed

15:43

and and that led me to

15:46

a whole bunch of different paths and for

15:48

you know , in some ways maybe that was a

15:50

slower way to go about doing it , but I think in the end

15:52

it gave me a flexibility that , for

15:54

the lifestyle I want to live , was was

15:56

the right choice , right ? So

15:59

, yeah , I mean all that to say for

16:01

, for people that are listening , who are trying to get

16:03

into this industry , I do think that , like sure

16:05

, if you can get into the big studios and

16:07

, like you have that drive where

16:09

you don't mind Working

16:11

really , really long hours for very little

16:14

pay and you can afford to do that , if

16:16

, if you can , if you are in that situation

16:18

and you find the right mentor , then

16:20

I think that can lead to some incredible things . But

16:23

it also has to be the lifestyle that you want , right

16:25

, and I think that that's a really important thing , I

16:27

had the opportunity to to work for a bigger producer

16:30

I won't say his name , but she he

16:32

was he and you probably heard me talk about

16:34

this in my podcast . It was like you

16:36

know , he wanted me to fly across the country and

16:39

, like , when we were talking about you know

16:41

, work hours and stuff , he was like you're gonna work

16:43

20 hours a day , seven days a week and

16:45

for like no money , and this

16:48

was like a chance to have big credits under my

16:50

belt . But I was like no , at

16:53

first . He was like and I thought he was joking . And I said to him like

16:56

okay , you know , haha . Like you

16:58

know , if I'm gonna move across the country , like you know , 20 hours a

17:00

day , like what are the real hours ? And he was like , no , you remember

17:02

, there , four hours in the day , you'll figure out how to live . And

17:04

I was like what about sleep , you know ? So

17:06

like , to me , that was just like not

17:09

the lifestyle I wanted and so , yeah

17:12

, between like the places I was working at and

17:14

that , that situation , I was just like

17:16

I guess I got jaded about the old , the old Studio

17:19

model and was just like just gonna

17:21

do it on my own , you know and and just

17:23

see how that rides out and I

17:25

think in the end it worked for the better for me . And

17:27

, like , I learned a lot about marketing on the way

17:30

along the way and you know , I learned a lot about

17:32

my , my Running a

17:34

studio as a business , which is another

17:36

big thing yeah , there was a lot

17:38

that I learned along the way and it's , you know , it's slowly

17:41

building up to something really great for me . So I'm

17:43

happy with where I'm at right now you know , yeah

17:46

, amazing .

17:46

I remember on the episode

17:48

, or remember you saying that , about the 20 hours and

17:50

the four hours in a day . It's crazy

17:53

, isn't it ? It's almost because they are

17:55

Not like Hens teeth

17:57

as we say over here in the UK when something is

17:59

that rare , but because there is a demand

18:01

for it . It's supply and demand . I

18:03

guess these producers and engineers can say they

18:05

can be like well , if you don't do , I'll find someone else like

18:07

oh yeah , who would want to take this opportunity

18:10

.

18:10

So and the funny thing is that is that I said no

18:12

and then I I know someone who said

18:14

yes shortly after and

18:17

she lasted like a

18:19

week and was just like fuck this , like

18:22

it's just not okay . You know , I don't know if I could

18:24

swear on your podcast . Oh , that's fine , okay , um , but

18:26

yeah , she was like no , like this is like this

18:28

is Not a way

18:30

to live . you know who cares your

18:32

credits under your belt , but like at the end of

18:34

the day , like if you hate life

18:36

and like you can't enjoy things . And what's

18:39

the fun in that ? You know ?

18:40

yeah , exactly , I With

18:42

you on that , like with the sort of low and slow

18:45

route , as it were , and not building that portfolio

18:47

and that and whatnot . Did you start

18:49

out dry hiring studios or

18:51

did you immediately have a space I

18:53

had ?

18:54

like I . I

18:56

was working out of my parents basement for the longest time

18:58

. You know like I would just find local bands and be

19:01

like , hey , like my parents

19:03

aren't home on the weekend . Yeah , okay , come record

19:05

. You know it's like it was literally like that , like

19:07

I would try to do whatever I could and and my

19:09

parents were pretty they are very supportive

19:11

and like they were very tolerant , I'd say and

19:14

you know they let me have a lot of bands over that

19:16

, like you know , some of these bands are

19:18

god-awful , but they would , they would , they

19:21

tolerated the noise , you know , and like they were like , okay

19:23

, like we see that you want to do this , so

19:25

like , do it test it out , see

19:27

how good you are at it , like how passionate you are

19:29

about it . And so

19:31

, yeah , I got my start doing that and then , yeah

19:35

, I worked out of a couple local studios . I

19:37

tried to find places where I could make noise , because , you know

19:39

, it was much easier than having to skirt around my

19:41

parents all the time . But , yeah

19:44

, I started working out of like a couple a little smaller spaces

19:46

and just kind of worked my way up and found a couple different

19:48

Studios to work out of whenever I needed

19:50

to . Eventually , I did have my own

19:52

space for a while and then

19:55

I had that space . For how

19:58

long now ? Probably , like it was probably like six or seven years

20:00

or something , and then , right before the pandemic , I closed

20:02

it , which was great . It was like perfect timing and

20:05

I just dedicated . But , like at this point , now I mainly

20:07

do like mixing and mastering projects and I have a home

20:09

studio which works great for me and I can

20:11

do that . I don't necessarily need to have bands over at the house and

20:13

, yeah , you know I do . Most

20:15

of my work is international anyway at this point . So so

20:19

, yeah , I kind of just did that and that worked out better for

20:21

me too , because now I don't have to , like a commercial

20:23

place that I'm responsible for and you

20:25

know , rent big , big lease

20:27

somewhere . You know what I mean .

20:29

Yeah , yeah , 100% , yeah , and

20:31

I think you're right . I think a lot of audio

20:33

engineers do start out with that sort of there

20:36

in their parents place and their parents

20:38

sort of saying okay and then doing that , and

20:40

I mean I was quite lucky and I found a rehearsal

20:42

space and they would let me use their space and I Basically

20:45

said , okay , well , you can use it , I'll use the

20:47

equipment here , and I managed to do that . But

20:49

yeah , it kind of segues now

20:51

nicely on to the , the next part , which is you mentioned

20:53

there about being a mixing and mastering engineer

20:55

and what we're gonna sort of focus on now for the sort of

20:57

Made check the episode is , is

20:59

mastering , because it is a is a huge

21:01

Pain point , I guess you would say , of

21:04

the audience , because and there is so much information

21:06

online I find that's the mastering and missing

21:09

misconceptions and whatnot . So I

21:11

think it's a really good one for our audience To

21:14

sort of delve into . So you

21:16

sort of like tell us more about the , the

21:18

role of a mastering engineer , and what do you look

21:20

for in a project . So are there any red flags

21:23

that you look for in a project ?

21:24

Sure , yeah . So as far as the the role

21:26

of a mastering engineer , I think the

21:28

way I could best sum it up is that , like , your job as a mastering

21:30

engineer is to prepare the music

21:33

for release in the best way possible

21:35

. And I think that mastering kind

21:37

of has two components to it . There is the audio

21:39

component to it and then there's the production

21:41

component of it . And when I talk about production , I'm not

21:43

talking about , like , audio production , I'm talking more about like

21:45

Manufacturing , production or distribution

21:48

production , right . So the

21:50

audio side of it is like you get a mix , you

21:52

make it sound better . That's the easiest

21:54

way I can sum it up . Right , there's a lot of different parts that

21:56

go into that . Like , you know , eq , compression , limiting

21:59

, all that kind of stuff . But

22:01

you know , the mix , the , the mastering

22:04

audio portion of it , is really just , yeah , taking

22:06

a track and Making it sound

22:08

better , making it so that it translates from

22:10

one set of speakers to another better , finding

22:12

a better balance overall . You

22:14

know , getting clarity , that kind of stuff . So

22:17

that's how I would describe that part of it . And then there is the

22:19

manufacturing , production side of things , which

22:21

is more Delivery , specs

22:24

. So , you know , making sure that everything is at proper

22:26

levels or proper file format for manufacturing

22:29

. If people are making CDs

22:31

or if they're going to a digital distributor

22:34

, you know making sure that everything is good on that

22:36

side , that your tracks are gonna sound good

22:38

on that platform as well . You've got

22:40

like meta data embedded in the files

22:42

so that you know when someone plays their , plays

22:45

, their CD or whatever in in their car , you

22:47

know like your song and artist name comes

22:49

up and all that stuff . You know

22:51

all that kind of thing is . I think that's the

22:53

. That's the side of things with mastering that I think people

22:55

forget about . You know that we tend to focus more

22:57

on the audio side of things , but there is like

22:59

that back end of like Making

23:01

sure that it's like all these little

23:03

details that often get overlooked are actually

23:05

well prepared and crafted . So

23:08

yeah , that's that's what I think of the role as

23:11

a mastering engineer . The

23:14

other what was the other part of your question was it's

23:16

like red flags .

23:17

So it's an interesting question , sort of like if someone was

23:19

to approach you or a potential client , an

23:22

artist , was to approach you with a , with a project . Are

23:24

there any sort of red flags that stand

23:26

out to you with regards to a mix , before

23:29

it then goes to mastering ?

23:30

Yeah , so yeah , king

23:32

, I'm glad to clarify that . It like there's there's problem , problem

23:35

client red flags , that's one thing , but but

23:37

I mean , as far as like preparing a

23:39

mix for mastering , the

23:42

biggest thing I would say there is , like Often

23:45

people will want to

23:47

over compress , that's the biggest

23:49

one . I think , like over compress or you get have

23:51

tracks that are way too loud and

23:53

I don't mind . Like I'm one of those mastering

23:55

engineers that , like I'll tell people , like try

23:57

to make it so that your peaks sit around minus six , whatever

24:00

, right , but if you give me minus three , I don't care

24:02

. You know what I mean . Like I'm not

24:04

gonna be like harping on you for that I'll

24:06

work with it , but the

24:08

bigger . The reason why I would suggest minus six is just because

24:11

it gives a lot of headroom so that mastering engineer can do what they

24:13

need to do and they're not gonna be clipping or

24:15

they're not gonna like they have room to work with . So

24:17

that's one of the things as far as levels go . And the other

24:19

thing is just like , yeah , don't over compress

24:21

or don't over limit your mixes , because when

24:24

you do that , you kind of put

24:26

yourself , you paint yourself , in a corner where

24:28

, like there's only so much that can be done right , and

24:31

oftentimes it's like people just trying to

24:33

make like a fake master to impress their

24:35

clients and say , like listen how loud this is , and it sounds

24:37

just as loud as your other favorite artists but

24:39

like that's not the stage for that . That's what mastering

24:41

is about , you know ? Yeah , yeah . So

24:44

I think it's just like yeah , if you don't know

24:47

what you're doing , don't try to make

24:49

a fake master . You know what I mean . Like I get

24:51

why people do it , but I

24:54

think like if you're gonna and if you're gonna do

24:56

that , then just send an unlimited uncompressed

24:58

version to your mastering engineer and then they've , they

25:01

can hear both versions and work off whichever

25:03

works best , you know .

25:05

Yeah , it's a question off the back of that then

25:07

. So you would sort of

25:09

tell a potential artist's client to

25:11

basically leave that sort of mixed bus

25:13

free then , not to compress , not to limit , just

25:16

leave it free of any processing

25:18

.

25:18

Yeah , I mean , a little bit of compression is fine

25:20

, you know , if that's part of the sound , like a lot of I know a lot of mixing

25:23

engineers that mix with bus

25:25

compression on , and I do that too , that's

25:28

fine right . But I think that , like I go very

25:30

, very gentle with my bus compression , you know , I'll

25:32

have , like you know , one and a half to one

25:34

ratio and maybe , like maybe two

25:37

to EB of compression at most you know

25:39

, in just very random spots of the song . So like

25:41

that's very transparent . But like sometimes

25:43

you'll get a mix where someone's like got like minus

25:45

10 , four to one ratio , like

25:48

throughout the entire track , and then it's just like everything's

25:50

slammed and there's nothing you can do with

25:52

that , you know .

25:53

Yeah , I know exactly what you mean . I'm fairly

25:55

certain on every mix I've done I've got the SSL

25:57

channel plugin

26:00

on pretty much every mix bus with those

26:02

settings there . I think there's one kind of

26:04

like classic setting with that one . I can't remember what it

26:06

is . It might be an all the way slow attack and then a fast

26:08

release , or it might be the auto . Yeah , yeah , yeah , it's

26:10

like two to one . It's a fan-saster piece of kit

26:12

. That's all I got every mix bus .

26:13

It's funny . I'm looking at my SSL bus compressor in front of me like I have

26:15

a physical one and yeah it's exactly that .

26:17

It's like slow attack , fast release , you know yeah

26:20

yeah , yeah , I had the pleasure of

26:22

working with a duality desk for about

26:24

a year or so . I absolutely loved it and

26:26

, yeah , running everything through that , I'd love

26:28

to get one . Can you , I think , can you now

26:30

get them ?

26:31

I mean , have you got the big duality

26:33

desk or have you just got like the small console no , I just

26:35

have like a , so I don't even have like mine's like a Stam

26:37

audio SSL bus clone , but

26:40

it's just like the one unit rack-mounted

26:42

thing , but it works great . I like

26:44

it a lot .

26:46

Yeah , it's a fantastic piece of kit . Once again

26:48

, it's one of those plugins that I mentioned so much on the podcast

26:51

. I use

26:53

the .

26:53

SSL bus . Like the plugins , I

26:55

use those all the time . Like to be honest . It's funny like

26:57

I have . I do have a lot of outboard gear in front of me . Unfortunately

26:59

, you can't see it on the camera here , but yeah yeah . But

27:02

I had all this because , like when I had a studio

27:04

that I was recording bands out of all time . I like

27:06

tracking through outboard gear , but I

27:09

actually kind of hate mixing and mastering

27:11

with it . You know , like it's kind of just sitting

27:13

in front of me like almost untouched most of the time

27:15

because , yeah , I just like the

27:17

plugins are so much easier , they sound

27:19

often just as good . You know

27:21

, sometimes they think they sound better than my hardware . Sometimes , like

27:24

, sometimes , like the difference is so negligible

27:26

it's like I'll just stick with

27:28

the plugin for the sake of recall or whatever . Yeah

27:31

, yeah , you know , and sometimes , like , the hardware

27:33

does do the magic and I guess it's like , okay

27:35

, well , I guess , you know , begrudgingly

27:38

, I'll use the hardware because it's

27:40

like you know that just has something

27:42

that I can't replicate in software . So then

27:44

I'll do it . But I hate using

27:46

outboard gear because then , like , the recall part of it sucks , you

27:48

know , yeah yeah , exactly

27:51

yeah , I'm 100% in the box .

27:53

And I remember having to recall I

27:55

was using this old Audient desk and I had to go and

27:57

recall a session . I was just like , no

27:59

, this is why am I doing this

28:02

, why am I putting myself through this ? I don't have someone

28:04

working with me who's able to do it . So yeah , I'm totally

28:06

with you on that . One thing you did mention

28:08

then , when I sort of clarified the Red Flags

28:10

question , was about clients . So this has

28:12

gone off on a bit of a tangent now . Yeah , of course

28:14

, for our audience listening , who wants to then start

28:16

working with artists and clients and

28:18

whatnot . What Red Flags do you look for in a potential

28:21

sort of project as an individual

28:23

client or artist ?

28:25

Yeah , that's a good question . I think that can come

28:27

in so many different forms , but usually

28:29

, like usually

28:31

, when you have a client who's telling you how the project's gonna

28:33

go and like you know like this

28:35

is what we need , you're gonna do this , or whatever . Like if

28:37

it's like against my normal like

28:39

process , then like that's immediately like okay , I

28:41

know this isn't gonna work for you . You know , it's

28:45

very , very , very , very rare that I have someone

28:47

that does that . So

28:50

that's one thing where , like , if

28:53

you get an artist who's like not really done

28:55

their project but they're like I wanna submit something to you

28:57

now , and then like we're gonna

28:59

re-record something , we're gonna add something after the fact and

29:01

then we're gonna send you the new version , it's like no , that's

29:03

like send me it when you're done . You know Stuff

29:05

like that will come up . I

29:08

don't know if someone's like telling me their price . That's

29:11

usually like another way to right

29:13

, especially if they're like super low balling

29:15

you or that kind of thing . But

29:17

fortunately I don't have too many of those

29:20

situations come up , you know .

29:22

Yeah , yeah .

29:23

And also like I mean and maybe this goes without saying , but there's

29:25

also and I'm sure you know this too like there's so many like

29:27

email scams that people you

29:30

know like you'll get the same email like

29:32

over and over again , and you kind of realize like , oh , this is a

29:34

scam . So if you see those kind of things , like you

29:36

know the limo scam is like a big one for

29:38

audio engineers , or like they'll get you to like hire

29:41

a limo or like some taxi or something like

29:43

that for their clients . And so if I see something like that , I'm like

29:45

now this , you're trying to

29:47

just get me to lose money .

29:49

Yeah , I had one I think it was last week where

29:51

they wanted to fly me out to Hawaii for two weeks

29:53

, yeah , and I think

29:55

I did respond and I was just kind of like , no

29:58

, yeah , and there was another one I

30:00

kept getting as well , which was someone who was trying to give me a piano

30:02

. They just kept

30:04

getting it through my , through the website , and

30:07

it was just like my father's died or

30:09

something along those lines . I've got this piano , I

30:11

really want to give it to you and I just say I

30:13

don't understand why . You obviously some sort

30:15

of bot or something like that , but it just seems so random

30:17

. But , yeah , I tell you , I get what you mean with the limo . Yeah

30:20

, the Hawaii one . When I first read it I was like that sounds really

30:22

nice , but ultimately , like they

30:24

did have a presence on Spotify , the

30:27

music sounded okay , but yeah

30:30

, it was very , very weird , that's interesting .

30:32

Yeah , I haven't heard of that one . There's another one that's like . There's

30:35

another one that I've seen where it's like people that will write

30:38

like custom birthday songs for like kids or something

30:40

like that and then they need like a

30:42

mixing engineer for that project or a recording

30:44

engineer for that project . So yeah , I don't know Just if

30:46

something seems fishy to any of the listeners , like

30:48

if you get an email where it seems fishy , too good to

30:50

be true , just look it up and I'm sure you'll quickly find

30:52

out if other people have the same experience

30:55

with it .

30:55

What are your thoughts on ? If someone asked you about

30:58

your equipment that you use , Does

31:01

that , is that a bit of a red flag for you , or is

31:03

that like a totally that's an okay question

31:05

?

31:07

It's funny because like , yeah , if someone asked me that , truly

31:10

, if they asked me that I don't really have a lot of , like mastering

31:13

gear , you know what I mean . Like I have , like

31:16

my SSL , whatever , I've got a lot of great

31:18

gear for recording , great preamps and stuff like that , but

31:20

, like , I always just tell them , like , if

31:22

you like , if you heard what's on my portfolio when you

31:24

like it , then you're gonna like what you , yeah , what you're gonna get . You

31:26

know , my portfolio speaks for itself

31:28

at this point , you know , and and

31:31

I and I also tell people to like , if

31:33

they want to record a , if they want to do a whole Album

31:36

of mastering with me or of mixing whatever

31:38

I was just telling , like , just do one , just

31:40

choose one song , let's start with that . You know , if , like , you're

31:42

hesitant , let's do one song , I'll knock it out of

31:44

the park for you and then it'll make it a no-brainer to

31:46

the rest of them . You know , and it doesn't matter what gear

31:48

I have , um , because

31:50

you're gonna get the sound that you need . And if I don't , if I

31:53

, if I can't get that sound , then I'm

31:55

not the right person for you , you know yeah

31:57

, no , that's really really good .

31:59

I like that answer because it's something I've

32:01

listened to . I listened to other music podcasts and

32:03

it's something that routinely comes up and

32:05

it's kind of like if they asked you for a gearless or a Step-by-step

32:08

play of what you do , which I guess is a fair

32:10

question . But in my mind , when I see that I'm

32:12

kind of like this , this person's

32:14

potentially gonna be more trouble than this project's

32:17

gonna be worth , sort of thing , and Much

32:20

like you with , the response I give is just like would

32:22

you've seen the portfolio ? Let's do a track and

32:24

see what happens . I'm not gonna sort of list out every

32:26

piece of equipment I have , or I think I had one

32:28

which was like you haven't got a gear list online

32:30

, and my response was yes , that's

32:33

correct .

32:35

It really doesn't matter , right ? Yeah , I know it's

32:37

crazy if the plug-in sounds so good

32:39

these days and I

32:41

don't know that . Like I guess if you're doing like

32:44

attended sessions , then maybe that matters more

32:46

because then , like someone wants to see that

32:48

gear and they want to see that you're using it . But

32:50

at the end of the day , like I mean , I could make up a

32:52

not that I do ever have done this , but like I

32:54

could make up a list of amazing gear that you

32:56

know it's not like people are gonna hear the master

32:58

and be like oh yeah , I totally heard that you use this

33:00

son tech EQ or you

33:03

know whatever it like they don't notice that stuff . It's

33:05

, at the end of the day , it's like , however

33:07

you get to the , however you get , the sound is all that matters

33:09

, you know yeah like I

33:11

recently , just for fun , I , for

33:13

my students , I was doing a mix

33:15

where took a mix where I had like , use

33:17

a whole bunch of like , you know , I guess , premium

33:20

plugins or whatever you want to call them right third party plugins . And

33:22

then I , years later , I went back and I

33:24

did like a Entirely

33:26

like stock plug-in mix of it and

33:29

it sounds just as good . You know , the

33:31

, the . It took me way more time

33:34

to do it with the stock plugins because it was just like I

33:36

had to . I had to like Finesse it a little bit

33:38

more and those plugins were maybe a little more tricky to

33:40

maneuver around or like you know , like whatever

33:42

, but but at the end of the day it still sounded just

33:44

as good as the , as the premium one . So

33:46

I imagine , if I do the same thing with outboard

33:49

gear , be the same same result . You know it's

33:51

like doesn't matter , it's just you

33:53

get , you get to the finish line . However , you get to the finish

33:55

line , you know .

33:57

Yeah , I think that's quite refreshing for the audience to

33:59

hear like that and it's something

34:01

once again that said a lot . Is it like the ? The end

34:03

product is what people are listening to and

34:05

they don't really care too much . What

34:07

sort of like you say what , what compressor you've slapped

34:10

on the drum bus or anything like that . You know , if

34:12

it sounds good , it is good . It's that sort of thing , isn't

34:14

it ? That's yeah , why ?

34:16

and it's like and the only people that actually care about that stuff

34:18

sort of get you off . The only care about that

34:20

are audio engineers , I guess you

34:23

know . And it's not even because , like , they notice

34:25

a sound quality difference . I think it's

34:27

just like they're just curious , you know

34:29

. Yeah , yeah , but it's like my wife

34:31

knows nothing about any of the gear

34:33

that I use and she's just like , yeah , good song Sounds

34:35

good . Yeah , like I'm like , oh , I love how

34:37

you use that SSL bus compressor and you

34:39

know the two to one ratio really made a difference , you

34:41

know .

34:42

I can really hear that tape saturation . Yeah

34:45

, it's making that that bit of difference there

34:47

. Yeah , excellent . And so moving on

34:49

to another question with regards to mastering

34:51

. So our audience is new to mastering

34:54

, that they want to start doing themselves , they want to go down the DIY

34:56

route . What concept of

34:58

? Because you mentioned there's two different

35:00

sort of aspects really , you've got the sort of like the finessing

35:03

side and you've got the actual back-end side . What

35:05

part of , or concept of , mastering should they

35:08

start with or master ?

35:10

One of their way of putting it first yeah , I

35:13

Think that , when it comes to

35:15

this , this is a bit of a loaded answer In

35:18

a sense that , like , I think that the key

35:20

thing to master , if you're

35:22

going to learn how to master , is is

35:25

the tools you know , and , and not just

35:27

like how to use the tools but

35:29

, more importantly , like how

35:31

to manipulate those tools to get the sound

35:33

that you want right . So , like , really like

35:36

it's one thing to know an EQ because , at the end

35:38

of the day , like , mastering is really simple . I think it's

35:40

. I think it's simple once you get the hang of it . It's

35:42

like EQ compressions I'm limiting , you know

35:45

, maybe some saturation , that kind of stuff and

35:47

Most mixing engineers know

35:49

how to use an EQ but , like

35:51

they don't know the frequency

35:53

Spectrum you know , like in

35:56

the sense of like a lot of people know , like , okay , if I adjust

35:58

this knob , it turns up that frequency , and

36:00

if I turn this knob , it adjusts the frequency itself

36:02

, and they'll sweep around until they hear a problem

36:04

and then they'll make an adjustment , you know , and like

36:07

, based on whatever their ears tell them , and

36:09

that's a valid way to do things . But I think that

36:11

, like , if you want to become a really professional

36:13

Mixing engineer or mastering engineer . You

36:15

have to understand , like , what characteristics

36:18

of sound for different instruments apply

36:20

to certain frequencies but certain

36:22

frequency ranges , right . So it's like if you want

36:24

to bring out like more of the stick attack of

36:26

a snare drum , you're gonna be looking in that like

36:28

Two to three K range and then , or

36:30

if you're looking for more of that smack kind of sound of it

36:33

, not just like the woody sound , then you might be looking around

36:35

8k or that kind of stuff , right . So if you start

36:37

to like identify these different characteristics

36:39

of sound , it allows you to Quickly

36:41

address the issue as opposed to like sweeping

36:44

around trying to find a problem . You

36:46

know , and so I think I think that's

36:48

the biggest thing it's like really committing Frequency

36:51

ranges to memory , understanding

36:54

how to use compressor properly and how

36:56

, how a compressor like how

36:58

the attack knob changes the amount

37:00

of Transient energy in

37:02

a song , that kind of thing , or how

37:04

the release can make a song pump or

37:06

you know like make something sound choked off , not

37:09

gonna stuff . When you understand those kind of

37:11

those tools in that way , then

37:13

it allows you to use them the

37:15

way that you hear in your head , right . Like

37:17

, I think , one of the one of the biggest

37:20

issues that a lot of people have is that they don't . They

37:22

don't have a clear vision , or often they

37:24

have a . They either don't have a vision at all

37:26

for what they want the final product to sound like , or they do have a vision

37:28

for what they wanted to sound like , but they just don't know how

37:31

to get the tools to do that . You know

37:33

, and so

37:35

you , yeah , just really

37:37

like committing to memory those frequency ranges as

37:39

a big thing , I think .

37:42

Yeah , I remember when I was starting out and

37:44

when you mentioned about the frequency ranges . I

37:47

think if you go on Google and were to type that in

37:49

, you can get these A3 , a4, . Well

37:52

, they're not going to be on your screen but you can get them printed

37:54

as well , where it's got the frequency spectrum and

37:56

then it's got like a table underneath with the actual instruments

37:58

and then it will give you the instrument in the frequency

38:01

range . The sort of timbre of the instrument

38:03

is there , what sort of sound you're going to get

38:05

if you start boosting in that range . So audience listening

38:08

, I don't know what you would search for for that .

38:10

Yeah , actually frequency ranges , something like

38:12

that probably . I was going to say , if people want a resource

38:14

for that , I have one on my website that they

38:16

can download for free . If anyone visits

38:19

masteryourmixcom , forward slash blueprint

38:21

. I've got basically

38:23

a cheat sheet that has a whole bunch of EQ frequencies

38:26

to pay attention to how to

38:28

use compression . It's all one guy

38:30

, that's all free , so people can sign up and download that

38:32

Fantastic .

38:32

I'll put a link in the episode notes for that as well .

38:34

Awesome thanks , man .

38:35

Because that'll be fantastic and

38:37

I like what you said there about vision as well .

38:39

So do you think , with regards to vision , is that where

38:41

a reference master or reference song

38:43

will really help when it comes

38:45

to your DIY , when you're starting out with mastering

38:48

, and also , I think , just in general as well , I think

38:50

when you're mastering yeah , I think

38:52

references are one of the most underutilized

38:54

things when it comes to audio production , because

38:56

I think , at the end of the day , we all

38:58

have this idea of what

39:00

pro quality sounds

39:03

sound like , and

39:05

I think that's often based on our own history

39:07

of listening to artists

39:09

that we enjoy . So

39:11

we look at the music we love as that

39:13

standard of like things should sound as

39:15

good as this , and

39:17

often when we're writing music , we

39:21

kind of we're writing in a similar style , often

39:23

because people take after their

39:25

influences , but

39:27

that's kind of our benchmark for what

39:29

something should sound like . And I think that references

39:32

can be used in so many ways throughout the audio production side of

39:34

things Like it can be used to help you with arrangements

39:36

of songs . It can be used to help you with tones

39:39

. It can be used to help you with when

39:41

you're recording , like determining

39:43

the character of a sound that you want

39:45

. So then maybe that influences your mic-ing positions

39:47

, that kind of stuff . It can be used to help you with

39:50

your editing decisions where you know how

39:52

tuned a vocal should be or how

39:54

tight a drum pattern should be . As

39:57

far as mixing goes , it can be used to help you with

39:59

levels and panning and

40:01

compression and EQ settings

40:04

like that kind of stuff or effects , and

40:06

then , from a mastering perspective too , references

40:08

can also be used to help you get that

40:11

frequency balance that's

40:13

going to translate . One thing I tell people all the

40:15

time is it's not about making a mix sound great on your

40:17

studio monitors , believe it or not , it's

40:20

not about how great it sounds in your

40:22

room . It's about making a mix that translates . And

40:24

references are one of the easiest ways to

40:26

do that , because if you hear that your

40:29

mix has a ton more low end

40:31

than your favorite songs when you play them on your

40:33

speakers , then that means that when you play it on a car

40:35

that has a subwoofer , it's going to be way , way

40:38

, way too big . So it's like maybe you need

40:40

to thin out the low end in your mix because that's

40:42

going to make it sound better in your car or any

40:44

other set of speakers . Right ? I think references

40:47

are one of these really important tools that there's

40:49

so many different applications you can use them in and

40:52

certainly , like I'm constantly

40:55

using reference tracks with all

40:57

of my projects .

40:59

Yeah , I really like the fact that you mentioned about

41:01

songwriting and arrangement there as well , because

41:03

I use a reference track when

41:06

I'm arranging , when I'm songwriting . I have

41:08

a I think I've said this on Instagram

41:11

, I've been the story or something but I have a playlist

41:13

on Spotify . When I hear a song , I chuck

41:15

it in this playlist and I think actually I really like that sound and

41:18

then I'll chuck it into a template

41:20

and then I'll start creating not trying to create

41:22

it like verbatim , trying to recreate

41:24

what they've done but I think that's

41:27

highly underused or underutilized . I've spoken

41:29

to a number of producers and they're just like . I've never thought of doing

41:31

that , actually using it in the arrangement phase . I

41:34

use it in every phase mixing and mastering as well , using

41:37

a reference . And just to echo what you said there about yeah

41:40

, it sounds great on your studio monitors , but

41:42

you've got to think the high percentage

41:45

of listeners a lot of them are just listening through their phone

41:47

or their laptop speaker , which I

41:49

can't feel myself . It's just

41:51

oh , it is offensive to my ears

41:53

, but that's me just being really , really picky . But

41:55

yeah , 100% . But

41:57

, mike , moving on , this is sort of our last question

42:00

of today and I like asking

42:03

this one when it comes to mixing and mastering , what do you think is the

42:05

biggest myth or misconception

42:07

in mastering today

42:09

?

42:11

It's a good question . Yeah , I think

42:13

that the biggest misconception these days

42:15

is that you

42:18

need to this could be a

42:20

whole episode in itself but

42:22

that you need to deliver at

42:24

the specs that Spotify

42:26

or Title or whoever tell you you need to

42:28

deliver at , because

42:32

Spotify will say , like oh , minus 14 loves is

42:34

what you should be aiming for . But if you master

42:36

it at that , then when you go

42:38

to another platform that doesn't have the minus 14

42:41

, then it kind of sounds weird . Or when

42:43

you master or when

42:45

you make CDs , then it's like too quiet

42:47

now . So

42:50

these days , if you actually were to analyze the top

42:52

five or top probably

42:54

top 100 songs out there right now and

42:56

you actually analyze their levels , they're significantly

42:59

louder than what Spotify recommends and

43:01

they even go over zero in

43:04

terms of intersample peaks and stuff like that . So

43:08

I think that that just goes to show that these

43:11

are recommendations , but they're not

43:13

requirements . They're not like

43:15

a hard wall kind of thing . So

43:18

, yeah , I think you don't need to necessarily

43:20

worry about that . I think there's so many great tools

43:23

out there like there's a plugin . Alliance

43:25

has one called this streamliner

43:27

, I believe the plug is called , that allows you to like

43:29

hear what it sounds like on

43:31

all of these different platforms at their delivery

43:33

specs . So it'll take

43:35

your current mix with however loud it is

43:38

, however , whatever it sounds like , and then

43:40

it'll apply the codec and whatever normalization

43:43

settings that these delivery services will use

43:45

and it lets

43:47

you hear what your mix will sound like . So

43:50

I think just doing your due diligence and checking it

43:52

with something like that is really helpful because

43:54

, yeah , if it sounds like crap , then maybe

43:56

you can adjust something a little bit right . But most of the time

43:58

if you've got a pretty good mix

44:00

, you've got a pretty good master , it's going

44:02

to sound pretty solid .

44:04

Yeah , I'm really glad you mentioned that and because

44:06

episode 99 is one where I've just gone

44:08

through LUTs and I basically echo

44:11

what you said there about streaming platforms

44:13

and how it says minus 14 , but just

44:16

make it sound good ultimately , so

44:19

it's conducive to the music and it sounds

44:21

good . You mentioned there about codecs

44:23

. Would that be similar to the one that's in Isotope

44:26

, because Isotope got an AAC and

44:28

an MP3 codec .

44:29

I think so , was it slightly more ? To

44:31

be honest , I've never used one in Isotope , oh okay

44:34

, yeah , I've only ever used like the streamliner

44:36

, and I just use that as a quick reference check . But

44:39

yeah , I imagine I'm pretty sure Isotope has

44:41

one . That is the same concept .

44:43

Yeah , I imagine it would be . There's a website as well for the audience

44:45

listening . If you don't have that , where I think you can upload

44:48

it and it'll tell you exactly how much it will be turned down by .

44:50

Yeah , Ian Shepherd has one . It's called Loudness Penalty

44:53

.

44:54

And that'll tell you how much it'll drop it or whatever .

44:58

But even that could be deceiving to some degree , because you might

45:00

see these numbers and get scared by it . But

45:02

at the end of the day , it's more about how

45:04

it actually sounds . I think yeah .

45:06

Do you audition using the Apple codec

45:09

, the Apple droplet ? Do you do that ?

45:11

I just use the streamliner , yeah .

45:14

Yeah , yeah , I'm interested , and half the time

45:16

I don't even worry about it , to be honest , either .

45:18

I've just done so many now that I kind of

45:20

know what to expect If a mix comes to me sounding

45:23

super , super compressed to begin with . Those

45:25

are always the ones that I feel are

45:27

the most at risk , because

45:29

everything is just like hard walled and already sounds

45:32

compressed and limited . So then to add

45:34

more of this compression or whatever these algorithms do

45:36

, then it might mess with it a little

45:38

bit more . If you have a fairly dynamic mix , it'll

45:40

usually translate pretty well .

45:45

Yeah , and I asked this question , sorry of Elaine

45:47

. Do you just do the sort of one mix

45:50

, sorry , one master , rather than do one

45:52

for each platform ? Is it just like one master ?

45:53

Yeah , I always do one master . Yeah

45:55

, I mean , I guess for like a bigger for , like bigger

45:58

label projects and stuff like that . They'll ask for more . But

46:00

generally I just do the one

46:02

, master , because it's the if

46:04

you give people too many options , they'll inevitably

46:07

like especially like the artists like they have time , they aren't paying

46:09

attention so they might send it to the distributor

46:11

with the wrong file and that kind of thing .

46:13

So yeah , yeah

46:15

, yeah , and once again I think I said this is

46:17

someone the other day is like when you're uploading that

46:19

master to destroy kids CD , baby , whatever

46:21

it may be , you can only upload one anyway .

46:23

Unless you pay for more . You can pay for more

46:25

, but like no one wants to do that .

46:28

No , no , exactly Exactly

46:30

. By the way , we're coming towards the end now

46:32

, so I think it'd be great if you can maybe tell the audience

46:34

a bit about sort of , maybe the master mix podcast

46:36

and some other bits and pieces that you do .

46:38

Sure , thanks , ben . Well , yeah , so , as Mark

46:40

was saying , I run a podcast called the master

46:42

your mix podcast and you

46:45

know very similar to what Mark's doing here . I'm interviewing lots of

46:47

different engineers throughout the industry , had a

46:49

lot of great , great guests in the past . We've had people

46:51

like Sylvia Massey , andrew Shepes

46:53

, david Benda , the whole bunch of other great

46:56

people and , yeah

46:58

, basically that podcast kind of started as an excuse

47:00

for me to just like talk with cool people

47:02

and learn more about their process , kind of , you know , similar

47:04

to what we're talking about here . And you

47:07

know it's just been a great podcast

47:09

from a learning perspective

47:11

and for a teaching perspective as well . So

47:13

you know it's been very cool to run that

47:16

. So definitely recommend people

47:18

check that out . And then , yeah , I

47:20

also run a website , masteryourmixcom

47:22

, which is where I help out musicians with creating pro

47:24

sound and recordings from their home studio , and I've

47:26

got courses and coaching programs

47:29

where I help people throughout the recording

47:31

, editing and mixing process , primarily

47:33

focus on mainly rock music . But

47:36

, yeah , lots of great resources on

47:38

that website but free downloads , as

47:40

I mentioned earlier . So definitely check that out

47:43

and if people are interested in learning more about

47:45

maybe working with me from a mastering

47:47

perspective or mixing perspective . They can

47:49

check out my production website , which is Mike

47:52

in Davinacom , and I've got

47:54

my portfolio in there and there's contact

47:56

form on there if people want to reach out to me Fantastic

47:59

.

47:59

There we go , folks . I'll put links to all that in the episode

48:01

description . And I haven't listened to the Andrew Shapps episode

48:03

yet , so that is going to be booked , mark , for this week .

48:06

He's awesome man . I love that guy .

48:07

Yeah , yeah , yeah , I had a chance , I think , to

48:09

go and attend one of his sessions

48:11

, but I can't remember why I didn't go . Probably

48:14

some reason , I can't remember . But yeah , I'm going to go listen

48:16

to that one . It's my Jim soundtrack

48:19

listening to your podcast and a few others as

48:21

well , of the morning .

48:22

Oh , thanks man .

48:22

Yeah , no , no , it's good , I love it

48:24

. It's great stuff . It's great , it's fantastic

48:27

Audience . Do go check it out and you've

48:29

probably seen . If you follow the podcast on Instagram to

48:31

the audience , you'll see me . I share

48:33

the posts and whatnot , so hopefully it'll send some more people your

48:35

way , which would be amazing . But , mike , it's been an absolute pleasure

48:38

having you on the show .

48:38

It's a big game , thank you .

48:40

Yeah , the audience is going to get loads out of this because

48:42

, as I say , mastering and it's kind of what we're focusing on

48:44

the podcast at the moment now for about

48:46

four or six episodes , maybe longer

48:49

, with regards to mastering . So I know it's been brilliant

48:51

and , yeah , a big thanks

48:53

again for joining me today , of course Anytime . And I'll catch up with you soon

48:55

. Anytime , man Love to come back . Cheers

48:57

, buddy .