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Music.

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Okonwa Ojo is the founder and CEO of Zeya Ventures, a company committed to building

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and scaling businesses that served underrepresented and marginalized communities.

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She's an experienced global executive with a 25-year track record of leading

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cross-functional teams to scale multi-billion dollar businesses and brands.

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She was most recently the Global Chief Marketing Officer and U.S.

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General Manager for Amazon Prime Video and Studios. videos.

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Ojo previously served as Global Chief Marketing Officers at MAC Cosmetics and Cody Consumer Beauty.

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So welcome to F. Org Insights. And I'm just super excited to interview you,

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to learn about you, your experience.

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I think you're such a unique person and a friend,

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but also, you know, this journey that you're on and you've been on,

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like to work at, you know, some of these massive global companies that take

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all that experience as a leader, as a business woman,

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and to parlay that into everything you're doing.

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Is it Zaya Ventures? Zaya Ventures.

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So long as you try. And your fashion brand, Zaya Media.

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I just want to start thinking back to growing up and kind of whether it's college

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or kind of your early part of your career. Like, is there sort of an experience that you can remember that sort of helped

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define you as a leader now in terms of how you approach leadership or how you

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approach, you know, people? Yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, I think like most people, right, I think the households that we

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grew up in really shape who we are, the community that we grew up in.

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I didn't move to the U.S. until I was a teenager.

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So my formative years in Nigeria really shaped who I was.

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My father, my mother, I grew up with a very business minded father and a very creative mother.

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One was a business owner. They were both business owners, but my dad is a serial entrepreneur.

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Like, that's kind of his thing. And my mom was a fashion designer.

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And so those two things are in my DNA.

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I grew up in a family, a large family. I have a lot of siblings.

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And so you kind of learn to, like, be independent and for yourself.

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And you learn to kind of make your own way in this world. And I think also just

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growing up in an emerging market where you are not, you don't have everything

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that's available to you. So you have to make do and you just learn resourcefulness.

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So I think a lot of things that I probably take for granted today that differentiate

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me in this environment, I would imagine I learned from my parents and from growing

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up, you know, in Nigeria. And not having a lot, like a lot of love and a lot emphasis on education and emphasis on,

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you know, having an ambition and driving towards it, but then also not an indulgent childhood, right?

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So you do learn to be resourceful. You do learn to try to do a lot with a little

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and, and to work hard for everything and that nothing's going to be handed to you.

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And I would say all of those things are all kind of like mixed up in there.

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Like, And make up, I would say, who have come tonight.

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How old were you when you started working? Like, were you one of those kids

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that like at nine, you're, you know, at your family's business,

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like when did kind of your working career start?

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Good question. I don't know that I had like a set date because like I said,

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my dad was a serial entrepreneur and there were a lot of times when we would just do work for him.

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I remember he used to import things and sell them in the local market.

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He was an importer. and I remember helping to things off the truck and like

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arrange them in the warehouse. As soon as I graduated from high school, before I went to college,

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I worked for my dad in the finance office and I would collect payments.

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They were all cash because this was back in the day, counts all the cash and,

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you know, store them in a safe place. And at the end of the day, we had to make an account of everything we received.

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We had to pay salaries and I was doing all of

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this as a teenager and I didn't really see it as anything but then

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I realized that a lot of people didn't have that for me

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it was just like horror for the course like that's just what we did in family

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and in my household you were just expected to help out and to pitch in and there

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was a lot to do so and like you know as an entrepreneur there are a million

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things to do and so when things need to you know need to happen you just pull

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everyone that's around and And that includes your kids.

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And my dad had a lot of them. So we all just kind of pitched in and we helped out.

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So what about other than a family member and not to limit you to childhood,

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could be in school or even just in the earlier part of your career?

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Is there a mentor that you can point to to say that, you know,

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that person has had a really profound effect on on, you know,

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how you conduct yourself as a leader today? Yeah, I definitely, I have a lot. I've had a lot of incredible bosses, amazing mentors.

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Nobody gets to any kind of success alone.

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And for me, I am surrounded, I stand on the shoulder of giants.

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I stand on the shoulder of everybody who looks like me, who made it possible

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for someone like me to show up in a corporation and have a high level executive role.

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And so So I'm so thankful to all the women that came before me,

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all the Black people that came before me, because, you know,

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there was a point when that wasn't the case at all.

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And so I'm thankful for all of those.

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And those are, you know, invisible mentors that existed before I got here.

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And then there are members of my family that really emphasized education.

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Emphasized ambition, my parents who did that.

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But there's my husband, who is my absolute rock, who I could not have the schedule

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that I do if I didn't have his support.

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And we didn't share in a lot that, you know, financial aspects of our family,

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but then also that just the household aspects of my family.

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And he's very willing to do both of those together. And that makes it possible

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for me to be able to show up and be fully present and have an executive and

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have an executive role or just any working role, to be honest.

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So I'm really thankful for him. But I would say that I remember when I was,

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you know, very, very, you know, junior in my career and had aspirations of doing more.

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And I thought about going to business school in my local community and I didn't know any better.

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There weren't a lot of people that had gone to top MBA schools in my network. It just wasn't a thing.

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And I was talking to our chief CIO, head of IT.

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I was working at a junior level and.

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In the sap kind of it department and so

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i went to our cio and i wanted his advice

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and he was like my boss's boss my boss's boss's

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like he was several levels above me he shouldn't really care about me and i

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went to him and got his advice because i was thinking of going to business school

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in my local state and he said absolutely not i was like why and he says oh no

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that it really makes a difference where you go to business school.

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You don't just go to any business school. You should go to a top business school.

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And I actually think that you would do really well there.

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And I had never in my mind considered that I could even apply to those schools

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or that I would get into those schools. And he said, not only should I go to those schools, but he believes so strongly

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that I would do well there that he would write my recommendation letter.

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And his His name was Jim McGrane. He's not alive anymore, but I believed him

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and I applied and I got in.

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I got into multiple, but I decided to go to Kellogg and he was right.

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I actually ended up graduating from Kellogg, one of the top in my class.

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So, and I never even considered.

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And so that was the beginning of kind of this level of my career.

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And so I for sure have to say thank you to him for seeing potential,

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but not seeing it and ignoring it, but seeing it, calling it out,

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holding you accountable and, you know, pulling you out of it. So, yeah.

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It makes me think or make me kind of remember the, there's such a power in leadership

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that can be used like that and a positive to help guide people.

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But also, you know, there's, you can, you can say something that's maybe just

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fencing a thought or, but because you're a leader, because you're so senior,

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because people look up to you, you know, the power of your words,

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you know, can be taken so literally sometimes.

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Yeah, you're right. I have to really be careful sometimes of what you say.

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No, you're totally right. And especially for people like me who think out loud.

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Same thing. And I've had to tell my team, I'm like, I'm thinking out loud.

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Like I literally use those words. I'm just thinking out loud. This is not direction.

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Because a lot of times you say things and everybody's like copiously taking notes.

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And then the next thing you know, they've spent like weeks or months working

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on this thing that you just said flippantly in a meeting.

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Day and you were not you were not committed

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to it you were literally just thinking out loud and you

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were so right about that and so i've learned to say

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to my team i'm just thinking out loud please let

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me know like poke holes in this like you know if i'm making like if i'm smoking

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something let me know i literally say those words just let me know and i think

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making sure that you You have an environment that is free enough and people

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feel free enough to hold you accountable, to push back,

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to just let you shoot the breeze if you need to.

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Yeah, I think it's really important to us to create an environment that allows for us to...

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For our teams to also think out loud and not feel like every word that comes

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out of their mouth will be judged.

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And then, you know, hopefully they accord us the same benefit of the doubt of

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just being able to express what it is that we're saying.

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And some of it will be brilliant, you know, because we have a lot of experience

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and some of it will be straight track. But as you imagine, like, that's a lesson to learn as you kind of continue to

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grow, because it's not, I mean, some people have this meteoric rise to the top

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and some people just kind of slowly over time,

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you know, get promotions and all of a sudden they're there, but it has like

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a new muscle that you have to exercise and really learn how to communicate this.

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Hey, I'm just, I'm thinking out loud here.

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Don't take this literally or ask me questions or feel free to push back.

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But all of that takes like such development and you know, it's really kind of

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a testament to that rise to the top rather than just like jumping up there.

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That's true i would definitely because you

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you learn the way not to do yeah

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and then you also learn the impact

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that your example has on other people i remember after i worked in europe and

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i watched people go on vacation for two weeks and like nothing broke like i

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worked in america for so long and like if you went the only time you went on

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a two-week vacation was like your honey Like you did that one time or,

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you know, depending on how many times you got married, but like your honeymoon

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was when you went on a two week vacation, but that was it.

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Every other time it was days or a week max.

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And then I went to Europe and I did an expat assignment in Europe.

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And everybody was taking two-week vacations. That was actually the norm,

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is that people would take two weeks off. And so now, when I moved back to the U.S., I went, you know,

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I started being more comfortable taking vacations. And when I took vacations, actually shutting off.

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And I didn't realize, one, I needed it mentally because I learned to do that.

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And I realized how valuable it was for me to reset as a leader and have time

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to think and reflect and rest.

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But the impact that that has on your team, because if they haven't really seen

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it before, as soon as you do it, then everybody is like, oh, I can take time off, too.

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And then they also take a week off or two weeks off and like completely disconnect

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and the world doesn't end. And you realize that like your willingness to do that and to set the example

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as a leader has really improved their work-life balance as well.

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And in some cases, their relationships with their spouses who are like, you never take a break.

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And so things that you think are little things for you could have tremendous

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impact on their day-to-day lives and on their health and on family lives and

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whether their relationships are thriving or not,

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because they're either working all the time and not taking care of the kids

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and not spending time with their spouses. Is you realize that the tone that you set as a leader.

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Has a huge impact on their life. And so it just makes you potentially make different

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decisions and say, just because I'm working doesn't mean you have to.

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Or it's okay to shut off on the weekend.

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We'll pick this back up on Monday. Little things like that, they may be little

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to you, but to them, to their bodies, to their families, it could mean everything.

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And so just realizing the impact of that.

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I think you know we i'm sure you've worked

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at places we all have i know i have where you

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know they talk about culture but then they

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don't model culture so it's like they they aspire

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to be this thing that has been beautifully crafted and you know word admits

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to its tea but then when it comes to really living that and and seeing how that

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kind of reverberates down through not only the way they conduct themselves at

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work but this example they set and the way

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they kind of create a culture or a atmosphere for them to be able to be effective at home.

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I think that, yeah, there's a disconnect there. But I hear you say that because

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that's exactly what you're doing. You're kind of living the culture.

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Yeah. And I think and sometimes it's just because we don't know better.

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I got to live it from my colleague.

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I learned that from my colleagues in Europe, that they would take these vacations,

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get get meaningful rest, truly disconnect and come back and the world didn't

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end. I was like, oh, wow, the world didn't. So then you learn to do the same.

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And so if you imagine others may

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not have the same level of exposure to different cultures like you have.

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So sometimes it's because we don't know better. Right. Or sometimes we don't

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realize the impact that our actions have or the examples, the examples that

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we're setting, the impact that that has on other people.

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Because I want to believe that if we know better, we will do better.

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I want to believe that. Yeah. So,

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I want to ask you about risk and how risk has played a role in your career.

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But I want to first kind of preface that and tie it to this last conversation.

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You know, you're talking about what you learned as an expat,

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you know, working experience. And I think that I came from my last business where, you know,

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in one sense, it was wonderful that you had people working there at the same

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company for 30 years, which are so rare these days.

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But at the same time, there is something to be said about having these different

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experiences at different companies, in different cultures, because you can sort

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of bring the best to the best. And I think that's the only way that a company can get better and a leader can

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get better is by observing what works for other people that have probably been

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in the same situation that you've been and have made all the mistakes and you can learn from them.

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But, you know, to jump around like that, not only jump around,

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but like to kind of have a career where you're going, it takes risk.

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So wondering, like, how is risk, especially coming from entrepreneurial parents

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and coming from Nigeria and immigrating, like, where has risk played a role?

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I think part of it is like our makeup, too.

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I think for those who have like multiple kids, you'll find that some of your

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kids just have a natural affinity to risk.

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Like you're like don't jump off that bridge and that's the bridge they want

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to jump off they're like let me see what happens and you have some kids that

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are like take a step and they look and i'm not so sure so i think part of that

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is our makeup i definitely think that i have makeup.

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That is more attracted to risk than most and is not as afraid of change and

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risk so i think that's part of it you know like nature versus nurture i think

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part of it part of it is nature as part Part of that nature,

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I also get bored very easily. So I love to come in and either start big things or fix big things.

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But then after they're fixed, I'm bored.

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I'm ready for the next challenge. And that's also kind of part of my makeup.

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Some people are like really great preserving things.

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And we need people like that in our society.

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Everybody can be like me. Like we would be redoing things that have no business

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to be done. A lot of skyscrapers think they're plumbing.

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Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I was like, we need everybody. That's why diversity is so important.

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Everybody's role is really important. And I know now, after working for so long,

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that I'm a big vision kind of person, and I like to start things,

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and I like to solve big problems.

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And as soon as those are solved, I lose interest, and I'm ready for the next

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big thing that I'm going to solve. I actually did personality assessment one

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time, and it told me a potential, a number of different career paths that I would have enjoyed.

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And one of them was an emergency room physician, right? Because you like,

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you broke your leg, right? I will fix it. But please take that to your doctor. Don't come see me tomorrow.

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And so like, I have that makeup, right? So I was like, I like the big problems.

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Oh, your life is on the line. Amazing. Let's fix that. So I love to start things and I love to fix really

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big things and I get bored. And so that's been part of, even when I've stayed within organizations for a

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long time, like I stayed at General Mills for six and a half years,

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I was, you know, at Cody for four years, but I got new challenges even within that.

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Every year or year and a half, they would like give me a new challenge.

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And so that's how you keep someone like me engaged is as soon as I fix one problem,

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give me a bigger problem. So as soon as I fix that, give me an even bigger problem.

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And that, I think, for me, gets me going and gets me really excited.

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On the practical sense, I took this class in business school.

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It was a class called Power in Politics.

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And in this class, we read this business case. I can't remember the name of

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the business case, but I'll never forget it. And it was basically this woman who had to stand up to her boss,

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I believe, because they were going through something.

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He was doing something where they're creating an environment that wasn't very

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ethical. and she had put away what she called go to hell money and she had saved

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and lived below her means for a really long time.

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And so she had this stash of money that she called go to hell money so that

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whenever she needed to, if she was ever being asked to do anything that either

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she didn't want to do or, you know, was unethical in this particular case,

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she could basically say like, go to hell.

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So I read that case and I was like, oh my God, this is brilliant.

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And so I came out of business school and I said, okay, like I want to be very

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intentional about living below my means so that I would never feel like absolutely

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had to be in any situation.

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I could be in a job because I loved it. Could be in a job because I was being stretched.

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Could be in a job because I loved my team and I loved my class and I wanted

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to be there, but I didn't have to be in it because I needed it to live.

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And that was a very intentional decision.

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And it took years and decades to, you know, to save over time,

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but it does give you, it matches your intuition, your You're naturally kind of tension for risk,

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but it gives a pragmatic kind of foundation to it so that if you did take a

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risk and for whatever reason it failed,

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you took a jump and for whatever reason the company wasn't as great as you thought

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or, you know, or you are being asked to do something that was not aligned to your value system.

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Or not aligned to your ethical system, that you could say, for me,

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not necessarily go to hell, but you're like, no, thank you.

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And I think the kind of natural inclination plus that pragmatic foundation,

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I think the combination of those two things make taking risks a little easier.

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And then the last thing I would say is when you do take risks and you succeed, then you learn a lot.

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You learn about what didn't work, but you also learn about what worked.

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And that allows you and gives you the confidence to take more risks.

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Because I think if you fall really badly flat on your face and you fail.

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Some people are able to get up from that and keep going.

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But I do think that there has to be something about that that works so that

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you You have some confidence, like your intuition is right, or your analytical insights are right,

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or your innovation or your approach to innovation is right.

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There has to be something about that that gives you the confidence that says,

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yeah, I think I know what I'm doing. It may be a risk, but it's a big risk to you, but it's a calculated risk to me, actually.

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And I think the combination of those three things makes it possible.

22:54

Yeah, that's really interesting. I want to just take it back to the point you

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made about kind of the go-to-hell money.

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I think it was the Zappos founder, the late Tony Hsieh, that in his book that

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made a severance policy kind of across the board for every Zappos employee,

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just because he said, you know, they're all about culture and customer service.

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He's like, if someone doesn't want to be here, I don't want them here just because

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they're worried about not making rent. Let's give them a severance package.

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And if they would rather take six months of cash and leave, I would rather have them do that.

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Because it's going to be corrosive to not only our customers, but our brand.

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I think if you could afford that, that's great.

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But it's the same principle. It's like, I want people here that want to be here

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because those are the only people.

23:45

You said something else that is another question a little further in my deck,

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but I want to jump there. because about, you know, how you are,

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first of all, you said a few things. I love when you said that's how to manage somebody like me and so many leaders.

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I'm one of them. Like, it's hard to just like figure out how to manage everybody differently.

24:05

And, but you have to, you know, everybody's a different personality,

24:08

different things drive them. And, you know, to have a high performing individual like you,

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you know, working, you've got to manage Conway differently than you manage Anson. it.

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And, you know, that's just, it just takes a lot of skill, a lot of patience

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and a lot of emotional intelligence. Yeah. Or, and if it doesn't, you tell them how to manage it.

24:28

I mean, we also can communicate, right? We can say, like, this is what I need.

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Like, I know you think I should be really happy right now, but I already fixed it.

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It's already done. Can I get a bigger problem to fix?

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Or can I get a, you know, a bigger, you know, can I get a business to start?

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Is there a new initiative that you think the organization's really struggling

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with that needs a skill set to kind of sift through the ambiguity and like build

24:56

something out of nothing? thing. I think sometimes, especially as women, and then I'll say, you know,

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as Black women, sometimes they tell you, just put your head down and work.

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And I think there's a time to do that. But then there's also a time to raise

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your hand and raise your head and raise your hand and say, you know what?

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Like, I see that thing over there and nobody seems to be figuring it out.

25:17

And rather than, you know, be part of the gossip committee or the complaining

25:21

committee, like, I want to fix it. Let me at it.

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And it's okay to raise your hand to say, You know, I want to be one of those people.

25:29

Or if, you know, something doesn't exist at all, you think it could be a very,

25:34

a very viable opportunity for the organization.

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It's okay to say, can you give me a small team and a little bit of money and

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let me see if I can go figure that out. So yeah, I think it's also for them to know how to manage you,

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but as you also learn what it takes to manage you, to help them and to communicate

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with them, just like you do in any relationship, right?

25:56

You tell them what's working for you and what's not working for you.

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And I don't see work relationships as any different. And I'm wondering how much

26:05

of your success has been just based on that ability to raise your hand and ask what you need,

26:14

you know, because you're, oh, it's almost like I'm asking for forgiveness rather than permission.

26:18

Like, you know, put me in the, put me in the game coach. Put me in the game, coach.

26:22

Yeah. Put me in the game, coach. That's what you want. But you're right.

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It's like, you know, people kind of interpret that as maybe making waves or

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that that's going to be taken the wrong way.

26:34

But yeah, that's what we want. That's where go to hell money comes in. Because if you say put me in,

26:40

coach, and they go, no, we're not. You're like, OK, then it's time for me to go somewhere else.

26:45

Trade me. Yeah. And so I think that's part of it, too.

26:48

Or it's like, I'll give you a little bit of time. I'll give you six months or

26:52

a year or two years. You know what it takes.

26:54

But if you really feel like you're not growing, you're not stretching,

26:57

you're not being valued, then I think it's.

27:02

That may be doesn't it's not always the case, but that may be a situation where

27:08

you do need to go somewhere where you are valued and where they need the skill set that you have.

27:14

Because if you're really skilled, but you're sitting on the bench and nobody

27:19

gets to see that and the company doesn't get to experience that,

27:23

especially if you know that if they put you if they put you on,

27:26

you know, they put you on and you don't deliver.

27:29

That's one thing but if you know that if

27:32

they put you in you're actually going to deliver and the company forward

27:35

or the brand forward or the business forward then you should

27:37

find you should find a place that will allow you

27:40

the opportunity the opportunity to do that you we only

27:43

have one life and and if you've

27:46

saved pragmatic pragmatically and money is not the

27:49

reason why because there's some times where you're like you know

27:52

what if your family needs the money don't like stay pled

27:55

and make sure that you're not rocking the boat and until

27:58

you have money saved up but if that's not

28:01

the reason then i would say find a

28:04

place and and find a you know a boss or

28:07

an environment that really values you where you can thrive

28:10

well what is one work practice or habit or hack that makes you effective oh

28:17

i don't know that it's just one i think that the biggest thing about me is I

28:24

believe that everything that I was created for a reason,

28:28

that I was created for a purpose.

28:31

And so everything that I am or that's a part of my life is like, it's there for a reason.

28:39

And so, yeah, so I just fully show up as myself and all of the versions of myself

28:47

that are there. because I think that's part of why I will be successful.

28:51

That's why I was given a specific purpose with this specific makeup.

28:55

I think I spent too long in my career wanting to change certain bits about myself to fit in.

29:03

And then I realized, oh, actually, maybe the reason I was made this way is because

29:09

I needed these tools or these parts of who I am to do things in the way that I do them.

29:16

And there are a lot of bits and parts to that.

29:20

It's not just one thing. My faith is really important to me.

29:25

I'm a very direct person and I used to hate how direct I was.

29:28

I would actually practice not being direct. I would be like, okay, cool. When you say that, first start with this,

29:34

then this, then that. And it was interesting. I would talk to my agency partners.

29:39

My advertising agency partners when I worked in marketing and they would be

29:42

like, we love you as a client. And I was like, you do? Why?

29:46

And they were like, we never have to worry about where we stand.

29:50

And I was like, oh my God, that's a positive.

29:53

We would go to these meetings and they would like say a lot of things.

29:59

And we would walk out of the meeting and be like, was that a good meeting or

30:02

a bad meeting? Did they like it or not?

30:04

Cause they give us like end things of feedback, back, but I'm not sure which

30:08

one I'm supposed to take, which one I'm supposed to leave behind.

30:10

It's not clear. No, like with you, it's clear.

30:13

You're like, if you don't like it, you're like, guys, I don't know that we solved it.

30:18

But if you love it, you're like, oh my God, I love it. Like,

30:20

I never have to worry about where I stand.

30:23

And I was like, oh, so even my directness is a benefit.

30:27

So I think like things that I used to not, I didn't appreciate about myself.

30:33

I recognize, Oh, actually, I can get things done very quickly because people

30:38

would go, wow, like things that takes people so long, you can get them done

30:42

in a short amount of time. But it was because I was really direct. So I could cut right to the chase and

30:46

be like, let's not go five rounds on this, guys. Like, I don't think we've solved it.

30:50

So let's kill this and like, let's get back to the drawing board.

30:54

And they may not like it in the short term, but they're like,

30:56

but they're really glad for the clarity. And so, yeah, I think I just learned to appreciate that.

31:03

Everything about who I am, flaws and all, over what other people perceive as flaws.

31:08

Flaws and all. So do you think it's, is it confidence? Is it authenticity?

31:12

Is it directness? Is it just kind of like.

31:16

With age and wisdom and experience comes more comfort in your own shoes and

31:22

recognizing your own superpowers?

31:25

Yeah, I think it's with age and experience. You just recognize that we're all

31:31

incredibly different and that's on purpose.

31:34

Just like I said earlier, you don't want a company full of people like me.

31:38

You need a plumber. You don't want someone who's like, here's the vision of the building.

31:43

But if we all just have a vision of the building, like who's going to lay the

31:47

bricks? Like who's going to put the plumbing? Like who's going to make sure we have lights working? So I think you need a

31:52

lot of different people to make this earth work, to make a company work,

31:57

to bring an idea to light. And the sooner you learn your role within that and you're comfortable with your

32:04

role within that, the beauty of that is then you recognize that you need other

32:08

people to make things work. And so it's not even so much like a superpower it's

32:13

just like my power but then like ensign

32:16

you have your power and so like if you bring your

32:20

i don't think it's like super one is bigger than the other i think we all have

32:24

our own magic and we when we bring it all together we can do incredible incredible

32:31

things but for us to do that we have to realize what we bring to the table and what we don't.

32:38

And then the things that we bring to the table, we should fully lean into that

32:43

so that the team can get the maximum benefit of that.

32:46

And then when you're not really good at something, it's okay to know that so

32:51

that Anson can step in and can do what Anson does and like totally knock that

32:58

out of the park in a way that you never could.

33:01

And I feel like when we We appreciate each other like that.

33:06

Like that's how we do incredible things together.

33:10

And so, yeah, I think like, even when I think about the.

33:14

Successful things that I've led in my career, like I never did any of those alone.

33:20

I only played one part of it, but for us to be able to pull it off,

33:26

it needed a lot of different skills and capabilities and strengths and personalities.

33:33

And so I can talk about my role within it. And as I grew confident in stepping into my role within it,

33:39

but there were a lot of other people that also had to step into the fact that

33:45

they were incredibly organized and they ran the project like a tight ship and

33:50

they made sure that we not only had the vision and that not only were people who were executing it,

33:56

but that we did it on time and we did it perfectly.

33:59

And that's a different skill set. And I think when we all bring that to the

34:03

table, we have this beautiful tapestry industry of humanity that gets to make

34:08

really big things happen. Which, which how easily that can be derailed when ego starts to start to enter

34:16

the picture and it's all over the place in the corporate environment.

34:19

So how do you deal with those people that, you know, because that takes a lot

34:24

of sort of selflessness to say, you know, I want to be the best at this,

34:28

but I know you're the best at this. So let you run with this. I mean, it takes maturity and intelligence that probably

34:36

not a lot of people have. Yeah. I mean, I.

34:39

Maybe they have it. Maybe they don't. I don't know. But I just know maybe because

34:43

I felt like I was wired very differently than a lot of environments that I was in,

34:49

because a lot of times I was the only woman or I was the only Black person or

34:53

I was for sure the only Black woman. And I always had to like explain myself to people or justify how I was my makeup

35:02

because everybody kept trying to get me to fit into the mold.

35:06

And I was like, well, what's the point of having me be different if you just

35:11

want me to come in and be like everybody else? Like, what's the point of that?

35:14

Like, I thought, isn't the point that I bring in something different?

35:18

But I think once you start fighting for your ability to be different,

35:23

it's impossible to do that without valuing the differences in others.

35:28

Because if I'm different and you should give me the space to be different,

35:32

then that works the other way.

35:35

That also means you're different and I have to give you the space to be different

35:39

so that I can have the space to be different. And I think being forced into situations where I always have to justify my makeup

35:47

and fight for my unique makeup, I think just expands your mind to accept others as well.

35:55

And yeah, I think that's how I got to this place where really,

36:01

like, it's all of these differences that make it work.

36:04

And if you give me the right to do that, then everybody else should have the right to be that as well.

36:10

More questions for you and talked about you know

36:13

the importance when we were talking about mentors of your

36:16

family and your husband and your partnership

36:19

and your son well and

36:22

then also vacation and and taking those and the importance not only to take

36:26

those but to model that behavior like where are you at this stage in your life

36:30

with work-life balance like how do you we hear more and more about it and i

36:35

guess how do you weigh those things especially you know where you are with, with,

36:40

you know, your various companies that you're involved with and boards and everything

36:43

that's pulling you in a thousand different directions. Yeah. I don't, I don't really believe in work-life balance.

36:52

So you're talking to someone who operates at a high level of intensity and I actually work a lot.

36:58

Why? I think as part of understanding myself, I recognize that I am a sprinter, not a marathoner.

37:06

And everybody approaches work-life balance like it's a marathon.

37:11

And a marathon is about preserving your energy to go the distance.

37:18

And so you don't see a marathon or sprinting. Nobody sprints a marathon, right?

37:24

They kind of preserve their energy.

37:26

And they do 26 miles. But that's the only way you're going to do 26 miles is

37:30

to kind of moderate your energy so you can go the distance.

37:34

And I recognized very, very early on, I was a sprinter and I operate at high

37:41

levels of intensity, but then I go into moments of rest with equal amounts of intensity.

37:48

And so I've learned that about myself

37:51

and I couldn't I didn't within the

37:54

work-life balance kind of mantra because I

37:57

recognize that when I'm working I'm like really in

38:01

it and I can go I can work till really

38:04

really late at night midnight one o'clock like sometimes I'm

38:07

working till that late but I take

38:10

my weekends really seriously I am I

38:13

take I am seriously resting interesting

38:16

on the weekends because I go so hard during

38:19

the week and I take my vacations seriously

38:23

because I go so hard at work

38:26

and I think it's just understanding what works for

38:29

you and how you manage energy and there are a lot of amazing people who are

38:34

able to kind of stabilize their energy and you know do a little bit of work

38:40

and a little bit of family and a little bit like a little bit bit of everything

38:43

and just kind of stabilize and stay the course. And that's how they go the distance.

38:48

And I am the person who like high energy rest, high energy rest.

38:53

If you average it all out, it's the same thing. But that's how I...

38:58

Right. And that's how you get the best out of me.

39:01

And so I think for me, understanding that was really, really helpful.

39:05

And then explaining that to the rest of my organization and saying, this is how I work.

39:10

It doesn't mean that's how you have to work. So I may be working till midnight,

39:15

like on a Wednesday, on a Thursday. Thursday, but then you're not going to hear from me on a Saturday.

39:22

You know what I'm saying? Because I'm going to be like horizontal and resting

39:25

and not doing a whole lot of anything. And so don't feel like you have to do the same because you may be one of those

39:31

people where you get off at six o'clock every day and that's how you,

39:35

you know, you moderate your life and you do a little bit of everything.

39:40

But then you're the same kind of person who may work through the weekends because

39:43

you're always kind of like this. And I think that's okay too. We just have to talk to each other and figure out

39:48

how we all work and try to work around each other.

39:51

And I think that there's a, you hear these interviews with,

39:55

interviews like this with founders and CEOs and like, oh, I sleep three hours

40:01

a night and I don't eat, you know, for 24 hours and I do this and then you're

40:05

like, well, maybe I should try that. Like, no, like what, who you are as an individual,

40:10

as a leader, as a person, person as a husband the

40:13

father's a mother like it's going to be completely different so figure

40:16

out like you said works for you and how

40:19

you're most effective yeah and what are

40:22

your non-negotiables like like i will never give up my family for a job never

40:30

so if you know that then you have to to build a work life that works so that

40:36

you can spend time with your spouse and with your kids.

40:42

But if but there are a lot of people that don't feel that way.

40:45

And so listening to somebody else and saying, oh, I want that kind of life,

40:50

but maybe I don't want their family life.

40:54

And so I think I have to think about all of those. I can't just take their advice

40:58

and kind of take it on and say, okay, this is now how I'm going to live my life.

41:02

I think that's really important. Last question. So kind of looking out into the future, where you think about

41:10

life, work, what's most exciting or what's most daunting to you?

41:17

I think I am very excited about this stage in my life where I have crystal clarity

41:24

on the things that really matter to me.

41:28

And I'm privileged to be able to design my life around that.

41:32

I know the priorities of the things in my life.

41:35

And the activities that I'm involved in and where I spend my time is now organized

41:42

according to those priorities. But I recognize that that's a privilege.

41:46

Even for me, I had to work, you know, almost three decades to be able to earn

41:51

the privilege to do that. So I recognize that that's a privilege and it's not accessible to everyone.

41:56

And so I'm very grateful, very grateful to God. I'm grateful to everybody that

42:03

I've worked for, that I've worked with.

42:05

I'm grateful to my team that I'm working with right now. I'm grateful to my family.

42:10

Like, I'm just filled with immense gratitude to have the opportunity to design

42:16

my life, to be aligned with my priorities.

42:19

And that's what I'm the most excited about.

42:22

And it makes work very different. It makes it feel very different.

42:27

And I'm just really thankful for it.

42:31

Beautiful. Conway, it's been a privilege to talk to you, to learn from you,

42:35

to be able to ask you these questions. We've known each other for a few years. I know you're always available to talk,

42:42

but to sit down in a format like this and really kind of lean into all the experiences

42:48

and all the influences that have shaped you and how you practice those,

42:52

it's been a real honor. So thank you for taking this time.

42:56

Thank you for having me. thank you for you know for making the time for us to

43:01

chat through and for being willing to listen to everything good bad and all

43:06

right always all right well uh we'll see you soon and thanks again thanks bye.