0:30

Welcome back to the IndieWood podcast

0:32

. This is a podcast where we talk

0:34

about independent film , how to make independent

0:37

movies With me today I have a

0:39

really special guest , a good friend of mine . She

0:41

spent nine years on

0:43

a TV show called Billions playing

0:46

Helena . She was recently in

0:48

a film called 80 for Brady and

0:51

now she is going up for a

0:53

leading role in a show

0:55

in Greece . But she's also been a part

0:57

of my filmmaking community . Zina

1:00

was also playing a role in a web

1:02

series I did ages ago and

1:05

is making her own shorts as

1:07

a writer and as an actor and as a producer in those

1:09

shorts . Zena , welcome , thank

1:11

you for having me . You're welcome . Yeah , no , thank you for

1:13

being on the pod . I'm always happy to

1:15

have friends on and someone who is

1:17

aware of many hats , because

1:19

sometimes you bring someone on , they're like , oh

1:26

, I just do one thing and I'm like like , and what are

1:28

the hats to wear ? Like , no , no , just the one thing , but I want to wear other hats , um , and so right

1:30

now you just wrapped a short film and we were talking about

1:32

, you know , having you on the pod and like what we talk

1:34

about and what we discuss and I think the

1:36

coolest thing that I like about your experience

1:40

in the film industry is your ability to

1:42

network . You have this really cool group of people

1:44

that you can tap into that you've nurtured and

1:46

kind of found over the course of your career

1:48

. And I guess I want to talk about finding

1:51

your team . You know the people you work

1:53

with and then trusting your team , because

1:55

I think those are two very important things . And

1:57

so for this film , you're working with a group of people that

1:59

you've worked with quite a bit , quite a bit

2:01

, yeah yeah . How did you meet them ?

2:04

So it's a really interesting

2:06

story because this goes

2:09

back to , like I want to say

2:11

, nine years now . So

2:14

when I was lucky

2:16

enough to get on the show , to get on Billions

2:19

, and I started having a little

2:21

bit more of flexibility with my

2:23

life , my schedule and all that and

2:25

some momentum , I

2:28

decided because my role was so small

2:30

. I was like I

2:47

just want to be able to use that and amplify it . So then I took the time that I was on

2:49

set and I wasn't doing anything or I was not needed or whatever , to write things . And then

2:51

I just even though I was like I don't think I can write things , everyone

2:53

was like you should write your own stuff . I was like I

2:56

have no idea how to do that . And then I

2:58

remember I had a friend that

3:00

was waiting tables and he was a

3:02

writer and I was like can you write something for

3:04

me ? And he's like you should write it , you should write it for

3:06

you . And I was like I don't understand , I don't

3:08

, I'm not a writer , I can't do it . He's like

3:10

no , no , no , you just sit down and you

3:12

write , and then that's how it goes

3:15

, and then you'll see . And

3:23

then I kind of got exasperated . I was like I'm just going to try it

3:25

. And then I did , and then I started writing these shorts and

3:27

then I was my boyfriend at the time was

3:30

also a filmmaker and

3:32

he kind of had a group of people

3:34

that was like really close to and

3:36

he's like no , we can do this , we can make

3:38

, we can make it happen for like very little or

3:40

for you know , just for fun

3:43

. And this is what it was

3:45

really just for fun and

3:47

practice . So during

3:50

this process I started

3:52

writing nonstop and I started

3:54

I really was into making

3:57

things . I just somehow

4:00

I met these people through him at the time

4:02

because they were all working as

4:04

like they all did

4:06

lighting together and so they were in

4:08

that world , and

4:11

especially my good friend

4:13

, jack Sherman , who is my

4:16

cinematographer that I worked with for

4:18

all these years and I think we've done , I

4:21

think , 15 short films . Wow , I didn't know

4:23

it was that many , it was a lot , it's a lot . It

4:25

was just that it was , so

4:27

he had his own people and then we all

4:29

kind of gelled together and then we stuck

4:31

to each other , and then that was the

4:33

thing that I realized that

4:35

made the best team

4:38

that Once you find the people that

4:40

you love , you stick with them and

4:42

you do things for them . You scratch

4:44

their back , they scratch your back , and

4:46

that's how it works . It's literally like

4:48

a community and a family , and

4:50

we've both helped each other out

4:53

many , many times .

4:55

I met Jack once on the

4:57

short you did previous to this

4:59

, I think , or was it before yeah , yeah , with

5:02

Sarah , yes , yeah , and

5:06

it was fun to see him just show up , pull

5:08

a camera bag out of his car and then , like

5:10

two other guys show up and they pull like lighting

5:12

, and then you know , camera , camera

5:15

accessories out of their car and then

5:17

they just get together and shoot and they've been working together

5:19

for a long time and and what really

5:21

didn't surprise me , but what really kind

5:24

of solidified the idea of finding

5:26

your team and trusting your team , is

5:29

that they all have found a way

5:31

to not only help each other but

5:33

, like , be there for each other . So if Jack

5:35

has a project , the two buds

5:37

show up . If one of the buds named Cody , who's

5:39

a great guy , if he has a project

5:41

, you know Jack and , I'm sorry , the other

5:43

guy's name I can't remember Pete Pete

5:45

shows up , and so it's this trifecta of

5:47

folks helping each other . And it's so important because

5:50

I find that you know , and maybe this was your

5:52

experience at the beginning you write something

5:54

, you make something you're like OK , make it Absolutely

5:56

no-transcript

6:26

if you don't luck out to get

6:28

a Jack , because , it's true , like he

6:30

is special , he is

6:32

very good at what he does , or

6:34

I got really lucky .

6:37

I completely understand that

6:39

. But I think that any set that

6:42

any actor finds themselves on

6:44

, they can calibrate and see who

6:46

is my person here . Be

6:48

flexible . Flexibility is

6:51

huge because I think people get so

6:53

scared and they are too

6:55

worried that they're going to mess up . But just

6:57

be of service and then

6:59

I think that that's how it worked

7:01

out for me . I just wanted

7:04

to make sure that I have a good time

7:06

, because really it's about that

7:08

. Like we're not bankers , we're not doing this

7:10

to , we're not saving the world , you know

7:12

, yeah , it's just , it's have

7:15

a good time .

7:15

Although I will say , on some level , I

7:17

think art does save the world , absolutely . Yeah

7:20

, so maybe we are saving the world .

7:21

It's true . It save the world , absolutely . Yeah , so maybe we

7:23

are saving the world , it's true . It's

7:26

like I just heard this earth without art is , eh

7:28

, and I was like that's awesome , that's really funny . Okay

7:31

, yeah

7:37

, so you know , I totally , and it's what you were saying . That like , if Cody has a project , then Jack is

7:39

on it and Pete is on it . If I would never do one without asking those

7:42

three dudes first .

7:43

That's really cool . I like that and I

7:45

want to add to that because I tried

7:48

to do that when I first got to Los

7:50

Angeles to build this network of people because

7:52

I had it in Seattle and then I moved to Arizona

7:55

and then I had it in Arizona and then I moved to Los

7:57

Angeles and I don't think it translated

7:59

. I think the people that I met in those respective

8:01

places stayed there and

8:08

when I got here , it took me a while to find my people and even now I think it's still hard . Sometimes

8:10

I really have a hard time . If I need someone specific for a

8:12

specific thing , I really have to

8:16

dig through my community . But what

8:18

I ran into and I don't know if this is

8:20

your experience is I'll meet a group

8:22

of people and then they'll

8:24

just leave . Not like me , yeah

8:27

, Like oh , I'm breaking up , we're leaving

8:29

, it was . You know . They'll move overseas . They'll

8:31

move , They'll switch career , Sure . Yeah , it

8:33

happens all the time it happens

8:35

and it sucks , because I don't want

8:37

people to get discouraged because

8:39

, having been in Los Angeles for

8:42

a decade while those , I

8:44

think , I went through one , two , maybe three groups before

8:47

I found , like this core group of people . What

8:49

I've noticed is that this core group of people is

8:51

made up of folks from all

8:53

those groups , you know . So it takes time

8:56

and effort and it's not really about like , hey , you

8:58

scratch my back , I scratch yours

9:00

. It's about building friendships , it's

9:02

loyalty .

9:03

Yeah , it's loyalty , it's , and it's it really

9:05

is , it has I say this

9:08

about everything in my life

9:10

that it has to be a win . Win , like

9:13

that's the thing that I think is

9:15

the most important in terms

9:17

of like every relationship has to

9:19

have , has to be a win , because otherwise

9:21

one source gets depleted

9:23

and that doesn't work .

9:25

And that's been . I think I had a

9:27

moment like that where I showed up for someone's

9:30

spec , I put in

9:32

effort and I put in the time , but I wasn't

9:34

reciprocated . And I felt like I was being hired

9:37

for you know , as hands

9:39

, but I wasn't getting paid for a particular spec . And

9:42

then you , you know that was it .

9:44

Yeah , and that's why that doesn't work . But

9:46

in a way , the good thing

9:49

with that is that you find out through that experience

9:51

. Oh , that's not my person yeah and

9:53

I think that that's the positive . The contrast

9:56

shows you I've also been for all

9:58

the jacks that for

10:00

you , the one Jack that I've met

10:02

, there's been hundreds of other people

10:05

. Yeah , not that , and it wasn't

10:07

my people

10:09

.

10:11

It's interesting you say that it does take hundreds

10:13

of people . I mean , maybe that's an exaggeration for

10:15

some and for others it's on point

10:17

. It does take a long time and

10:19

an effort . It's like dating , Of course

10:21

. Sometimes you find the right one right out the

10:23

gate and you work with them . You know from

10:26

grad school or from film school , and

10:28

sometimes you go through dozens of Absolutely

10:31

, until you find that right person .

10:32

And you just have to keep trying until you find

10:34

your group , your team , and

10:37

once you have them , just go

10:40

back to them . That's what I think is

10:42

the most important , because that's where the loyalty

10:44

and the trust plays , because then

10:47

, as you grow , they grow

10:49

and then you know , maybe you start

10:51

without anybody making money and then you

10:53

grow to like I'll pay you a little

10:55

bit of money and then you grow into like I'll

10:57

pay you your full rate and then you grow into

10:59

making something great that is doing fantastic

11:02

yeah , then you're not worrying about rating anymore .

11:04

Exactly , you're worrying about the crowd .

11:07

And then you've just like gone , you know , together

11:09

, and I think that that's really

11:11

wonderful .

11:12

When you found your team , your

11:15

community . How do you trust

11:17

? Because sometimes you know there

11:19

are filmmakers who have their people

11:21

but they maybe

11:24

are too stuck to their own kind of

11:26

perspective , their own way of

11:28

doing things and they maybe not

11:30

trust . They don't trust the people they're

11:32

working with , even though that they go to them all

11:34

the time because you know that's their people

11:36

. You know they don't maybe trust . How

11:38

do you trust or how did you kind of develop

11:40

that trust ? Was it more of letting go or was

11:42

it , you know , something you developed over time

11:44

?

11:45

To be honest , this is something that I'm really

11:47

focusing in my life in general . Right now

11:49

it's instinct , Like

11:51

if your gut feeling tells you

11:54

oh no , this person I can trust

11:56

. Filmmaking is a collaborative

11:58

project . It doesn't matter what

12:00

I have on the page .

12:01

It doesn't , matter what .

12:02

I have on the page . What's most interesting to

12:04

me is how we all put it

12:06

together how the actor

12:08

will see it , how the cinematographer will

12:11

see it , how the director will see it , how I

12:13

will see it as a writer . And then putting it

12:15

together and then just making a salad

12:17

of this whole thing and like , how

12:19

is that salad going to balance

12:21

and just

12:23

being so . I mean , I know , and maybe

12:26

that's just how I do things , but

12:28

I'm really interested in community and I'm

12:30

really interested in collaboration . I'm

12:32

not so interested in oh , this

12:34

is my vision , this is what I had . That's great

12:37

for a bunch of amazing directors , but I'm

12:39

also not a director , so kudos

12:41

to them for doing that . But I

12:44

really enjoy the process of flexibility

12:47

, of adjusting , because

12:49

to me that's really it's like

12:51

a dance , it's like , okay , I will go

12:53

this way , you will intuitively know how to

12:55

go that way , and it really jazzes me

12:57

up Like that's really cool

12:59

, I find . So , instead of , this

13:01

is my vision and I got to do this

13:04

. So I think it's instinct

13:06

, it's trust , like if you know from the start

13:08

that you're like oof , my gut feelings

13:10

tell me that something's off , something's off . So trust

13:13

it , you don't . That's the thing that

13:15

I've learned now , later in life that

13:18

I had to see it play out

13:20

, and now I'm like I don't really need

13:22

to see it play out anymore , I just can

13:24

.

13:31

I have something your gut can tell you . Yeah , and it's interesting you say that because

13:33

I think I've been thinking about this quite a bit how do you like when people

13:35

are starting out , how do they get

13:37

to where we are ? And I

13:40

think it just takes time . There's

13:42

so many parts

13:44

of this craft , this industry , that

13:46

we want to just fly right past

13:49

because it feels scary or boring or

13:51

uncertain . Yes , past because it feels scary or boring or uncertain

13:53

. Yes , we want to get to the end where we're making stuff . But you know , sometimes

13:55

you have to put in that time to build friendships , to

13:57

build a community , so you can have people you can

13:59

rely on , like a cinematographer , like

14:02

, um , you know , a sound person

14:04

, or someone who

14:06

can light your scene , or actors , for

14:09

example . You , you know , uh , I

14:11

, I . When we first met , we were shooting our

14:13

web series in in , in the middle of

14:15

the street . So , fun , I don't

14:17

know . I mean , I don't want to house

14:19

myself . I guess I don't want Brooklyn

14:21

to come back and be like , hey , you owe us the permits

14:23

Because we didn't get permits , that's okay . We were

14:26

just like , hey , we're going to go out on the street and people

14:28

were worried about that and we just showed up wherever and

14:30

we shot and then no one cared , which is . It

14:32

felt very much like seattle , which was we did back

14:34

in 2005 , and that's

14:37

where we met , that's where we met and , yeah

14:39

, you know , to this day it's one of my favorite scenes

14:41

in my reel .

14:42

I love it , I love it so

14:44

much and everyone that I showed so they're like what

14:46

is this program ? It's so funny , that's so cool

14:48

I remember writing

14:50

it .

14:51

Well , sarah wrote it . I kind of just jazzed it

14:53

up a little bit . When we were shooting

14:55

it , our team who , speaking

14:57

of you know , not trusting your instincts

14:59

, they were really kind of pushing

15:02

back on , like , how are we going to light

15:04

it ? It's Brooklyn at night , you know , and

15:07

this is a person who was

15:09

, you know , adamant that we get an Alexa

15:11

, and we only had a Sony , and

15:14

I think everything kind of came together because the Sony

15:16

had a really high ISO at the time . I think it was a Sony

15:18

F5 . So we could shoot with

15:20

a little darker . Sure , we could shoot with , you

15:22

know , lights that were off the street , and we did . We

15:24

went next to a giant store

15:27

, I remember , yeah , that had a giant like

15:29

display of purses , giant display

15:31

of purses , and that's what we shot

15:33

. We utilized the store lighting right

15:35

as they closed , and it was a lot of fun and

15:37

that was a great scene . So

15:39

I guess you can't do it on your own

15:42

. You've got to find your people and

15:44

we are each other's people .

15:46

Absolutely .

15:47

I think in the future we'll do a whole lot more stuff

15:49

. 100% , find your

15:51

people and find the trust

15:53

. Sometimes it might not work because sometimes

15:56

you might have to go through a gazillion

15:58

people to find your people . Yeah

16:01

, but yeah , find your clan , your community

16:03

.

16:03

And I think you know , obviously

16:05

this is like whatever

16:08

, it's a little woo woo , but I do

16:10

think that the best

16:12

way to find your people is to

16:14

let it happen organically

16:17

. So do what you do , be

16:19

who you are . You can be in a coffee

16:21

shop and find your people , like sometimes

16:23

pressuring so much to be like I'm gonna

16:25

go to these network events and do this and do

16:27

that , and it just kind of backfires . Not that

16:29

it can't work like that , but I

16:32

do think that when

16:34

you're aligned and when you

16:36

can be walking down the street , walking

16:39

your dog , whatever , and you

16:41

start talking to this person and that's your person

16:43

.

16:43

Well , you know , it's interesting because in Los

16:45

Angeles , in New York , that's correct , Sure

16:47

, but in Oklahoma and Wisconsin

16:50

that's so hard to find True

16:52

. We recently , Sarah and I Sarah's

16:54

my partner and wife and producer

16:57

and actress , so she's

16:59

kind of my community as well and

17:01

that's how we met for those

17:03

who weren't listening , five minutes ago , we

17:07

did . We were judges for a 48-hour

17:10

film festival in Wisconsin Wow

17:12

, the first of its kind in that like

17:14

small town .

17:17

And I want to say that , you know , people think

17:19

that LA and New York are the hubs and they are

17:21

for the industry , but there are filmmakers

17:24

everywhere 100% here , and you know

17:26

, I mean not to be a little whatever

17:28

, but just because of reality

17:31

, like I think that in places

17:33

like Wisconsin they probably

17:35

are a little more sincere , yeah

17:37

, a little more eager , yeah , yeah , yeah , a little

17:39

more willing , and that goes

17:42

a long way and there's a lot of creativity

17:44

there .

17:45

Yeah , if you've ever seen a 48-hour

17:47

film festival , they're not maybe like

17:49

the best film , sure , you know

17:52

if we're thinking about films in general , but

17:55

there's a lot of passion , sure , and

17:57

there was one film that

18:00

I think for me , sparked a lot of joy

18:03

and a lot of like

18:05

ooh , like there's something there . It didn't win

18:08

any of the main prizes because I don't think

18:10

it met the certain criteria , but it won the certain criteria

18:12

, but it won the audience award . That's

18:14

awesome . And I remember when all the judges were kind

18:16

of meeting , when we were meeting , we

18:19

talked about this film and I championed it . I was like I

18:21

think there's something here and it won the audience

18:23

award . That's great and it was such a cool film . So

18:25

I hope that the people in Wisconsin

18:27

and they trust each other

18:30

and I think it was just a guy

18:32

directing it and it was his sister and his

18:34

best friend and they were like in high school .

18:36

And you know now that you say that I'm also thinking

18:39

. One of the cool parts of this

18:41

living in this day and age is that you

18:43

find someone that inspires

18:45

, you Write to them on Instagram and write

18:48

to them and message them , and then start

18:50

having a conversation , even on Zoom

18:52

or whatever , and then you don't

18:54

even have to live in the same spot .

18:55

I did that . I did that last year . I

18:58

never used to do that , but I found there's

19:00

an old music video that one

19:02

of my favorite songs called

19:04

Can Do it by Atu A-T-U

19:07

, and this music video was really great

19:09

. It was weird but I loved it

19:11

. It kind of fit all my criteria

19:13

for creative things , and this

19:15

gentleman named Sam shot it

19:17

. This was 10 years ago , and

19:20

so I found him on Instagram a year ago and

19:23

I go hey , did you do this music video ? And he goes

19:25

oh my God , that's a blast from the past . And

19:27

so we just connected and we chatted for a little bit and he's

19:29

in England and I'm here and we're

19:31

connected now .

19:32

I think that's the best thing . I

19:34

mean , if we're going to be , you

19:36

know , taking down the future

19:38

and the internet and AI , we

19:40

might as well use it for the good things

19:42

that it has , and that is , we're

19:44

all very connected and it's

19:46

not that hard to find people

19:48

anymore , and I think that that's a huge

19:51

blessing . So , yeah , like it

19:53

doesn't matter where you live , like you can live wherever under

19:55

a rock , and as long as you have Wi-Fi , you can

19:57

connect to anybody and then start

19:59

Zooming with them and developing

20:02

ideas , and then you can just meet

20:04

for a couple of days and film something .

20:06

Yeah , yeah , so , and with phones

20:08

, what they are , I think , between cell phones

20:11

, social media , which can be very bad , but also very

20:13

good , very good sometimes . Yeah , and like Frameio

20:15

, which you know is very affordable

20:18

, you can make a film . Yes

20:20

, a good one .

20:21

Yes , like Tangerine was all filmed

20:24

on a phone years ago

20:26

, iphone 5 , yeah , yes .

20:27

And then Steven Soderbergh did

20:30

a bunch of films on an iPhone . Unsane was

20:32

one of them and I mean , come

20:34

on , you compare it to , like I don't know

20:37

, any cinema camera . Yeah , you're going

20:39

to be able to see a difference , but I mean , a lot

20:41

of films that were my favorite films

20:43

weren't shot on dedicated cinema cameras

20:45

28 Days Later , shot on a

20:47

consumer camcorder , totally

20:50

. There

20:54

was another one , finding Kate or something , I forget it was with Katie Holmes

20:57

, tom Cruise's ex-wife . Yeah , katie

20:59

Holmes , yeah , she was in it , and they shot it on a camcorder

21:01

. That's amazing , and it was a theatrical release

21:03

. Both those films were theatrical releases

21:05

. So the technology's there

21:07

, we're all connected . Use it

21:09

to positivity , find your people , trust

21:13

your people , but it's going to take a long time . Xena , thank you , we'll see

21:15

you next week .

21:16

Thank you for having me .

21:18

Thank you for listening to the IndieWood Podcast . You can

21:20

find us on anywhere you find your podcasts and

21:22

on Instagram at IndieWoodPod . See

21:24

you next time .

21:24

From the CFA Network . Cinematography

21:27

for Actors is bridging the gap through education

21:29

and community building . Find out

21:31

about us and listen to our other podcast

21:33

at cinematographyforactorscom

21:36

. Cinematography for Actors Institute is

21:38

a 501c3 nonprofit . For

21:40

more information on fiscal sponsorship donations

21:43

because we're tax exempt now , so it's

21:45

a tax write-off and upcoming education

21:48

, you can email us at contactatcinematographyforactorscom

21:51

. Thanks ,